QuoteA new study shows generations bucking their upbringings, with sheltered Millennials choosing the bus.
In 2013, transit ridership in the United States hit a 50-year high, with the nation's transit systems logging 10.7 billion rides. A new survey from the new transportation-focused philanthropy TransitCenter, seeks to discover who those riders are and what motivates them to get on the trains, buses, and streetcars of American cities.
(http://cdn.theatlantic.com/newsroom/img/posts/2014/09/under_30/194c7ce89.jpg)
(http://cdn.theatlantic.com/newsroom/img/posts/2014/09/boomers/d4d960c56.jpg)
Full article: http://www.citylab.com/commute/2014/09/new-study-millennials-love-transit-most-boomers-still-stuck-on-cars/380380/
Well, that says it all. Descriptive graph indeed.
Maybe people under 30 can't afford cars. ;)
Quote from: Dog Walker on September 19, 2014, 10:53:50 AM
Maybe people under 30 can't afford cars. ;)
Or people over 60 have a hard time reading bus schedules? ;)
Is this guy a boomer?
http://members.jacksonville.com/business/columnists/2014-09-19/story/guest-column-do-away-skyway
Quote from: Coolyfett on September 19, 2014, 12:48:46 PM
Is this guy a boomer?
http://members.jacksonville.com/business/columnists/2014-09-19/story/guest-column-do-away-skyway
Rod Sullivan is the director of the Logistics and Transportation Law Program at Florida Coastal School of Law in Jacksonville.
http://www.fcsl.edu/employee/rod-sullivan (http://www.fcsl.edu/employee/rod-sullivan)
His professor rating is here.
http://www.ratemyprofessors.com/ShowRatings.jsp?tid=983067 (http://www.ratemyprofessors.com/ShowRatings.jsp?tid=983067)
He argued a case in the Supreme Court.
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=52164 (https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=52164)
Have MJ interview him. See how he made the numbers come out. I would like to see them.
Going south on Roosevelt Blvd, I noticed the thousands of cars entering the city, mostly one person per auto. Miles of autos ... Gridlock. The scene could be repeated all around the city ... tens of thousands of autos, paralleling direction, creeping ... some soon to be looking for a parking space.
Surely there is a viable alternative to the traffic jams on our city's major arteries. We've widened and added roads, poured more concrete and asphalt, inviting more autos and fuel use. More pollution, and dependence on fossil fuels.
How many drivers would use an effective mass transit system "if" it was available? ... a system wherein the wait for pickup would be no more than 20 minutes -- and where the transit time from the suburbs would be half of the current. An effective mass transit would reduce the need for street parking, and might eliminate the need for parking meters.
How much fuel would be saved if tens of thousands of autos did not idle in gridlock conditions every day?
If one were to design mass transit for the Jacksonville scenario, which would one use? Would there be light rail to areas further out ... streetcars for closer in ... and buses to fill in?
Governments exist in part to do what the single citizen cannot do. And this applies to problems concerning traffic and mass transportation. The long-term and effective solution does not lie in making more roads, wider roads, and more parking lots, but in designing and implementing a mass transit system incorporating the best and most efficient technology available.
I suspect that at least 70 % of the drivers in the gridlock traffic would on most days make the choice to travel in a light rail or streetcar system if it was available.
The absurd traffic scenario above has existed in our city for decades. Only the elected officials have the power and the mechanism to do anything about it.
I came across an interesting article that counters these "millennials are choosing city living over the burbs/busses over cars" stories we're seeing a lot of lately.
http://www.newgeography.com/content/004084-the-geography-of-aging-why-millennials-are-headed-to-the-suburbs
QuoteGreen activists hope this parting of the ways between the new generation and the preferences of their parents will prove permanent. The environmental magazine Grist even envisions "a hero generation" that will escape the material trap of suburban living and work that engulfed their parents....
But a close look at migration data reveals that the reality is much more complex. The millennial "flight" from suburbia has not only been vastly over exaggerated, it fails to deal with what may best be seen as differences in preferences correlated with life stages.
We can tell this because we can follow the first group of millennials who are now entering their 30s, and it turns out that they are beginning, like preceding generations, to move to the suburbs
However, as an urban core to the burbs transplant, i'd love to park the car and hop on public transportation if it took me where I needed to go and got me there within a reasonable amount of time.
Sometimes my rush hour commute can take 45 minutes, but usually it's only 20-30. A JTA bus would take several hours to get me to work I'd imagine.
Quote from: fsquid on September 19, 2014, 11:04:45 AM
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on September 19, 2014, 11:00:50 AM
Quote from: Dog Walker on September 19, 2014, 10:53:50 AM
Maybe people under 30 can't afford cars. ;)
Or people over 60 have a hard time reading bus schedules? ;)
both
Its lots of things (among those). Cost has a lot to do with it, but Yers (and many Xers) generally hate the things that their Boomer parents love. Shopping malls, suburban living, long commutes, cars (for the most part), maintaining huge lawns, being trapped inside a cul de sac w no way out on foot (thats then connected to a highway), not knowing your neighbors, not having a sense of community, etc can all go die in a fire as far as many of them are concerned. Transit just plays along with what the newer gens want & ties into all those things mentioned, basically undoing many of the mistakes the previous gen made (and they made a lot). For the most part, they don't understand us & we don't understand them.
Moving into an urban area & starting there, changing it from the inside out is the method used. There's a reason why if you go to basically any urban areas in the country it's mostly Xers & Yers.
Im sure some of the disconnect comes from fear. Older generations are fearful of strangers and anyone not of their social standing or moral or whatever. Also this is the south..we are 50 years behind any other city in the north in terms of public transports and design of communities and behind in many other aspects....so we sit and wait for things to progress and hope we can vote competent individuals for leaders..let hope and vote.
I like the peace and comfort of my car. Mass transit is cool and all but not for me lol I guess I'm too much of an introvert. I'm one of those guys that you see at the self check out lanes because I don't like interacting with cashiers. Ohh I'm also a millennial lol
Boomer here who would use transit, if it didn't take 2 or 3 times longer, and cost more than driving.
I like choice. One day it could be by car, another by transit, and another via a bicycle or my own two feet. Unfortunately, Jax doesn't really give you viable options to choose from.
Quote from: ronchamblin on September 19, 2014, 10:02:39 PM
Going south on Roosevelt Blvd, I noticed the thousands of cars entering the city, mostly one person per auto. Miles of autos ... Gridlock. The scene could be repeated all around the city ... tens of thousands of autos, paralleling direction, creeping ... some soon to be looking for a parking space.
Surely there is a viable alternative to the traffic jams on our city's major arteries. We've widened and added roads, poured more concrete and asphalt, inviting more autos and fuel use. More pollution, and dependence on fossil fuels.
How many drivers would use an effective mass transit system "if" it was available? ... a system wherein the wait for pickup would be no more than 20 minutes -- and where the transit time from the suburbs would be half of the current. An effective mass transit would reduce the need for street parking, and might eliminate the need for parking meters.
How much fuel would be saved if tens of thousands of autos did not idle in gridlock conditions every day?
If one were to design mass transit for the Jacksonville scenario, which would one use? Would there be light rail to areas further out ... streetcars for closer in ... and buses to fill in?
Governments exist in part to do what the single citizen cannot do. And this applies to problems concerning traffic and mass transportation. The long-term and effective solution does not lie in making more roads, wider roads, and more parking lots, but in designing and implementing a mass transit system incorporating the best and most efficient technology available.
I suspect that at least 70 % of the drivers in the gridlock traffic would on most days make the choice to travel in a light rail or streetcar system if it was available.
The absurd traffic scenario above has existed in our city for decades. Only the elected officials have the power and the mechanism to do anything about it.
Let's hope the redesign of JTA's bus routes and schedules will make transit more usable for those of us who would like to use the system, but are put off by the slow travel times and the long wait times between buses.
Our bus system isn't usable as real transit, who can afford to leave 1-2 hours early and take equally as long to get back from every meeting, work, etc.? This system is transport of last resort for those who can't afford otherwise.
As a boomer, this has little to anything to do with 'older generations being afraid,' or 'wealth buys automotive independence,' or any of the other factors mentioned.
We came up in an era when the public perception was 'railroads are dying', passenger trains were filthy remnants of whatever they once were, some even featured vending machines in lieu of food service. Buses were just getting restrooms on intercity runs, airplanes had props and rumbled and roared inside. City buses had just declared total victory over streetcars and most other rail transit (thanks to back room swindles) and we were left with 50-cent a gallon gasoline and endless plans for more and more FREEways. Most of us had little choice. What transit there was was second rate, City Coach Lines in Jacksonville didn't even have air-conditioned buses. Daytona Beach did't have buses until 1975.
In a story that appeared in the November 17, 1970, Champaign-Urbana Courier, P.E. Cherry, then manager, described the state of affairs as, "declining ridership, 22 year old buses and deficit spending." A request was made to the Illinois Commerce Commission by the City Lines to cease operation.
In 1971 (through today) Amtrak was formed, and it is and has been more of a funeral then a revival.
...And JTA?
Come to think of it, I'll drive until they have a product worth riding.
Absolutely Ock. Most of us will wait until a system is worth riding before we leave our autos at home. And even then, many will occasionally use the auto when a specific destination is anticipated on a particular day.
I am wondering if it is in fact true that we need, and could use effectively, a well designed mass transit system. If it is true, then one might wonder why there is none.
Apparently, the fact that there is "no" progress toward a viable and effective mass transit system -- one that would reduce auto traffic by perhaps 50 percent -- is due to the existence of conditions or economies that make the system unrealistic; that is, "not possible" at this time of the overall scenario.
It wasn't just transit that the Boomers helped destroy, as I'm sure you guys are aware. And just because a few here who are in that gen have their heads on straight doesn't mean the vast majority of your gen does (or did).
The total love affair with automobiles was under your watch, so was the complete abandoning of any & all urban areas, ushering in big box super centers (screw you, mom & pop), letting highways rip apart established urban fabric that actually had character & a history, etc. All of these things had tremendous negative consequences that we're just now starting to recover from. Boomers left & couldn't have cared less if you blew up these areas. Now they're bitching about all the money it takes to clean up the mess & trying to make up for the lost decades. Well, that'll happen won't it. Leave a cancerous mole on your body & then tell me how much more it costs to take care of it later on down the road.
You didn't have a choice? You actually did, but no one exercised it & was likely razzle dazzled by a lot of bullshit talk from all sides of the isle. A car doesn't define you (like they told you), a house in the burbs isn't a status symbol, wal-mart isn't your neighborhood buddy, huge lawns are stupid & wasteful, etc.
Like I said, most Boomers (not you guys) still hold onto these notions with an iron grip because acknowledging it would mean admitting they were wrong. And god forbid that happen. Hell, you can't go on a forum or city news site even today & read an article about transit, or bike lanes, or any other urban projects without hearing them still squawking about how we should just let it go, too much money, its a lost cause, etc.
As a 35 year old with younger siblings (and with a younger wife with still younger siblings), I think this has a lot to do with the 30 and under set delaying "growing up" as long as they can. My wife's siblings, ranging from 20 to 27, still live with their parents. Heck, of my peer group, I and one other friend are the only ones to have bought a home. But I think as these 30-and-unders age, they are going to make some of the same decisions our parents did. Public transit is great until you have kids (which I don't, but my other homeowner friend does). Urban living isn't as appealing as a big lawn and lots of big rooms for kids to play in.
That and frankly, in the vast majority of the country, jobs don't pay what they used to - and decent jobs are difficult to get without going into debt over student loans. Who wants a car payment, car insurance, and vehicle maintenance on top of student loan payments?
I'm not going to blame an entire generation for "screwing everything up" because every generation makes the decisions they make based on the circumstances of the time, and every successive generation blames the previous one for their problems... and thinks they have the foresight to keep from making their own terrible mistakes.
Quote from: Bativac on September 22, 2014, 08:32:04 AM
I'm not going to blame an entire generation for "screwing everything up" because every generation makes the decisions they make based on the circumstances of the time, and every successive generation blames the previous one for their problems... and thinks they have the foresight to keep from making their own terrible mistakes.
Well said.
It's easy to blame people of the past when you have the benefit of hindsight. But if you're going to do it, at least get the generations right. Cars, suburbanization, and the Interstate Highway System were all well in place by the time baby boomers were adults; they're the generation that was born between 1945 and the mid-60s.
The baby boomer generation is responsible for the 1970s/80s/90s transit investments. This would include heavy rail systems in DC, Atlanta, Miami, and LA. LRT systems in San Diego, St Louis, Salt Lake City, and even the Skyway in Jax.
Quote from: thelakelander on September 22, 2014, 09:06:55 AM
The baby boomer generation is responsible for the 1970s/80s/90s transit investments. This would include heavy rail systems in DC, Atlanta, Miami, and LA. LRT systems in San Diego, St Louis, Salt Lake City, and even the Skyway in Jax.
They also are responsible for some of the urban rebirth seen over the last 20 years. Many downtowns are flooded by millenials, younger Gen-Xers, and active retirees.
I am a boomer and a DT resident. I expect to own a car well into retirement although it may be very small and electric. Mass transit will have to improve dramatically to be as convenient as driving yourself where you want and need to go. I would expect car sharing to catch on here in Jax way before mass transit improves much.
Quote from: peestandingup on September 21, 2014, 08:24:54 PM
It wasn't just transit that the Boomers helped destroy, as I'm sure you guys are aware. And just because a few here who are in that gen have their heads on straight doesn't mean the vast majority of your gen does (or did).
The total love affair with automobiles was under your watch, so was the complete abandoning of any & all urban areas, ushering in big box super centers (screw you, mom & pop), letting highways rip apart established urban fabric that actually had character & a history, etc. All of these things had tremendous negative consequences that we're just now starting to recover from. Boomers left & couldn't have cared less if you blew up these areas. Now they're bitching about all the money it takes to clean up the mess & trying to make up for the lost decades. Well, that'll happen won't it. Leave a cancerous mole on your body & then tell me how much more it costs to take care of it later on down the road.
You didn't have a choice? You actually did, but no one exercised it & was likely razzle dazzled by a lot of bullshit talk from all sides of the isle. A car doesn't define you (like they told you), a house in the burbs isn't a status symbol, wal-mart isn't your neighborhood buddy, huge lawns are stupid & wasteful, etc.
Like I said, most Boomers (not you guys) still hold onto these notions with an iron grip because acknowledging it would mean admitting they were wrong. And god forbid that happen. Hell, you can't go on a forum or city news site even today & read an article about transit, or bike lanes, or any other urban projects without hearing them still squawking about how we should just let it go, too much money, its a lost cause, etc.
This is total bullshit. It was the "greatest generation" who embraced the automobile and fled the cities for suburbia after WWII. The first boomers didn't turn 18 until 1964, and by then the decline of transit and the inner cities was already well on its way.
QuoteThis is total bullshit. It was the "greatest generation" who embraced the automobile and fled the cities for suburbia after WWII. The first boomers didn't turn 18 until 1964, and by then the decline of transit and the inner cities was already well on its way.
FHA loans, which financed most of the suburban sprawl, was actually started in the late 1930's.
Let's give Nat Ford's redesign of the JTA system a chance to work. He's a transit guy and the makeover of the JTA routes is a massive change.
All of this finger pointing (millennial vs baby boomers) is really dumb IMO. It's easy to look down from an ivory tower and finger point. Most people use transit because they have to and given the choice, they would prefer their own personal automobile; I don't think that I'm going out on a limb by saying that...
^^^I'm still sticking to everything that I said. Baby boomers = highways, and millennials = transit, those are 'facts'? Okay... You calling someone a 'troll' oh the irony... No use in debating with hypocritical condescending and unreasonable people like yourself. I'm looking forward to your next troll reply...
This gets really old, y'all.
Quote from: stephendare on September 22, 2014, 12:08:40 PM
Its going to be interesting to be you in 10 years.
I'm confused.... (not really unusual)
So in 10 years, stephendare is going to be I-10east ? ??? ?
QuoteQuote from: finehoe on September 22, 2014, 11:22:33 AM
Quote from: peestandingup on September 21, 2014, 08:24:54 PM
It wasn't just transit that the Boomers helped destroy, as I'm sure you guys are aware. And just because a few here who are in that gen have their heads on straight doesn't mean the vast majority of your gen does (or did).
The total love affair with automobiles was under your watch, so was the complete abandoning of any & all urban areas, ushering in big box super centers (screw you, mom & pop), letting highways rip apart established urban fabric that actually had character & a history, etc. All of these things had tremendous negative consequences that we're just now starting to recover from. Boomers left & couldn't have cared less if you blew up these areas. Now they're bitching about all the money it takes to clean up the mess & trying to make up for the lost decades. Well, that'll happen won't it. Leave a cancerous mole on your body & then tell me how much more it costs to take care of it later on down the road.
You didn't have a choice? You actually did, but no one exercised it & was likely razzle dazzled by a lot of bullshit talk from all sides of the isle. A car doesn't define you (like they told you), a house in the burbs isn't a status symbol, wal-mart isn't your neighborhood buddy, huge lawns are stupid & wasteful, etc.
Like I said, most Boomers (not you guys) still hold onto these notions with an iron grip because acknowledging it would mean admitting they were wrong. And god forbid that happen. Hell, you can't go on a forum or city news site even today & read an article about transit, or bike lanes, or any other urban projects without hearing them still squawking about how we should just let it go, too much money, its a lost cause, etc.
This is total bullshit. It was the "greatest generation" who embraced the automobile and fled the cities for suburbia after WWII. The first boomers didn't turn 18 until 1964, and by then the decline of transit and the inner cities was already well on its way.
Yeah, and?? Post WWII adults may have started it, but its not like it happened all of a sudden. It didn't really start to ramp into high gear (then turn dire straights) until the 70s & 80s (peaking in the 90s) with all the above mentioned. Transport back in time & go to basically any urban area during those decades & watch them rot away. Hell, even NYC was a shithole then. Now imagine what it was like in normal urban areas across the country that weren't NYC. Gonna blame that one on their parents too? They were either retired by then, dying or already dead.
Let me ask you this. Did the Boomers do anything whatsoever during their reign to stop it or reverse these oncoming trends? Aside from a few instances in a handful of major cities (Lake mentioned a few)?? If the greatest gen started the courting, the Boomers crawled in bed with it, knocked it up & put a ring on it.
Screaming "well, they did it first, so meah!" doesn't exactly make for a good case. That's like saying my folks dabbled in marijuana, so that meant I had to be a full on crackhead. If the Boomers had any foresight, sense of community or caring whatsoever what the future might hold, then we wouldn't be nearly as in so deep with this stuff as we are now & sticking the newer adults with having to clean up the mess (and they are). Biggest "me first" generation the country's ever seen.
Again, I'm not talking directly to anyone on the forum so please don't take offense.
Absolutely wrong, do the math. Boomers were the result of a sudden post WWII influx of love starved adult males into the population. For the history challenged, the war ended in 1945, many were not back until 48' or later. So junior is born in 1948-49. He/She is 20 years old in 68/69 and responsible for the biggest social revolution/upheaval arguably in the history of man. The boomers invented the ecology movement, dabbled with electric cars, back to the earth movement, health foods, and using transit or car pooling (aka: 'hitching'). By the time 'we' (and I am one) had a BA, it was 1972/73, count 10 years for some serious seniority in society and you hit 82/83 and real change was on the boards. Add the 5-10 years required for these projects to get from drawing boards to streets and you are at 92/93. Our 'reign' is just now coming to an end... how do you like your infrastructure compared to 1968? YOUR WELCOME! No offense taken, but simply do the math, even the earliest of us Boomers effected massive change.
Quote from: Bativac on September 22, 2014, 08:32:04 AM
As a 35 year old with younger siblings (and with a younger wife with still younger siblings), I think this has a lot to do with the 30 and under set delaying "growing up" as long as they can. My wife's siblings, ranging from 20 to 27, still live with their parents. Heck, of my peer group, I and one other friend are the only ones to have bought a home. But I think as these 30-and-unders age, they are going to make some of the same decisions our parents did. Public transit is great until you have kids (which I don't, but my other homeowner friend does). Urban living isn't as appealing as a big lawn and lots of big rooms for kids to play in.
That and frankly, in the vast majority of the country, jobs don't pay what they used to - and decent jobs are difficult to get without going into debt over student loans. Who wants a car payment, car insurance, and vehicle maintenance on top of student loan payments?
Hmmm, this is an interesting statement. Not sure it's applicable to every city in America, though. It's pretty common for people to marry older in certain cities. This has more to do with work life, different sets of goals and ambitions, and life carry costs than with a decision to not "grow up".
Life is just different now. Attaining a superior education, or any education, is extremely expensive (2 of my grandparents went to Penn and my other grandfather went to Chicago when those schools cost less in today's dollars than in-state public college tuition). Like you said, finding a decent job is challenging and only considerably more possible in a select few really expensive, really crowded cities, and saving up to actually get married and have kids and live comfortably within means is a longer proposition, especially for those who did receive an expensive education they are trying to pay off in an expensive city, than it used to be.
None of that has anything to do with "growing up" and I wouldn't translate your siblings who are still at home with the parents as necessarily the "norm", though I certainly have heard of it more and more (either in really expensive cities like NYC and SF where it kind of makes sense or in cities like Jax where young kids are not really receiving superior educations and where they aren't finding superior jobs).
Transit is used by families all over the world. Not bringing up the "great" American cities like NYC/Boston/Chicago/SF, even in Atlanta I would hop on MARTA and share a car with a bunch of private school kids coming home from College Park (Woodward Academy), and of course lots of public school kids, too. Families going to Braves games, etc. If transit is effective, safe, and convenient, it will be used and appreciated by all types of people. It's not relegated to the poor or those "kids who are delaying growing up".
Quote from: peestandingup on September 22, 2014, 01:28:18 PM
Quote from: finehoe on September 22, 2014, 11:22:33 AM
Quote from: peestandingup on September 21, 2014, 08:24:54 PM
It wasn't just transit that the Boomers helped destroy, as I'm sure you guys are aware. And just because a few here who are in that gen have their heads on straight doesn't mean the vast majority of your gen does (or did).
The total love affair with automobiles was under your watch, so was the complete abandoning of any & all urban areas, ushering in big box super centers (screw you, mom & pop), letting highways rip apart established urban fabric that actually had character & a history, etc. All of these things had tremendous negative consequences that we're just now starting to recover from. Boomers left & couldn't have cared less if you blew up these areas. Now they're bitching about all the money it takes to clean up the mess & trying to make up for the lost decades. Well, that'll happen won't it. Leave a cancerous mole on your body & then tell me how much more it costs to take care of it later on down the road.
You didn't have a choice? You actually did, but no one exercised it & was likely razzle dazzled by a lot of bullshit talk from all sides of the isle. A car doesn't define you (like they told you), a house in the burbs isn't a status symbol, wal-mart isn't your neighborhood buddy, huge lawns are stupid & wasteful, etc.
Like I said, most Boomers (not you guys) still hold onto these notions with an iron grip because acknowledging it would mean admitting they were wrong. And god forbid that happen. Hell, you can't go on a forum or city news site even today & read an article about transit, or bike lanes, or any other urban projects without hearing them still squawking about how we should just let it go, too much money, its a lost cause, etc.
This is total bullshit. It was the "greatest generation" who embraced the automobile and fled the cities for suburbia after WWII. The first boomers didn't turn 18 until 1964, and by then the decline of transit and the inner cities was already well on its way.
Yeah, and?? Post WWII adults may have started it, but its not like it happened all of a sudden. It didn't really start to ramp into high gear (then turn dire straights) until the 70s & 80s (peaking in the 90s) with all the above mentioned. Transport back in time & go to basically any urban area during those decades & watch them rot away. Hell, even NYC was a shithole then. Now imagine what it was like in normal urban areas across the country that weren't NYC. Gonna blame that one on their parents too? They were either retired by then, dying or already dead.
Let me ask you this. Did the Boomers do anything whatsoever during their reign to stop it or reverse these oncoming trends? Aside from a few instances in a handful of major cities (Lake mentioned a few)?? If the greatest gen started the courting, the Boomers crawled in bed with it, knocked it up & put a ring on it.
Screaming "well, they did it first, so meah!" doesn't exactly make for a good case. That's like saying my folks dabbled in marijuana, so that meant I had to be a full on crackhead. If the Boomers had any foresight, sense of community or caring whatsoever what the future might hold, then we wouldn't be nearly as in so deep with this stuff as we are now & sticking the newer adults with having to clean up the mess (and they are). Biggest "me first" generation the country's ever seen.
Again, I'm not talking directly to anyone on the forum so please don't take offense.
The car started becoming widespread with the Model T in 1908. Streetcars started getting phased out by buses in the 1920s and '30s. Mass suburbanization started after World War II. The Interstate Highway System came into being in 1956. All of those things happened before Boomers were of age, and some started generations before. I'm not sure how the Boomers would be any worse than earlier or later generations, except that there were more of them.
I'm not offended, nor am I screaming, but your time line is all off. Boomers didn't get in positions they could influence land use patterns until the late-70s at the earliest, and most of them not until the eighties. Urban and transit decline started in the 50s, excelerated in the 60s and probably hit bottom in the 70s. It was after the oil shocks of the 70s that people began to look once again at central city living. This trend really took off begining in the 90s--when millenials would have been too young to have much of an effect.
Furthermore, research by analysts Morley Winograd and Mike Hais, authors of the ground-breaking "Millennial Makeover," indicates that millennials are even more suburban-centric than their boomer parents. Urban areas do exercise great allure to well-educated younger people, particularly in their 20s and early 30s. But what about when they marry and have families, as four in five intend? A recent survey of millennials by Frank Magid and Associates, a major survey research firm, found that although roughly 18% consider the city "an ideal place to live," some 43% envision the suburbs as their preferred long-term destination.
Clearly its not so much generational as it is subsets of all generations who gravitate to urban living while the majority of their peers still prefer the 'burbs.
Then there's this from the transit center, which found that while suburbs are the preference, mixed-use suburbs - specifically including historic inner-ring suburbs many people would consider "urban" - are the most preferred. This goes across age groups, including (gasp) boomers.
http://transitcenter.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/WhosOnBoard2014-ForWeb.pdf
Quote from: Tacachale on September 22, 2014, 02:17:58 PM
Then there's this from the transit center, which found that while suburbs are the preference, mixed-use suburbs - specifically including historic inner-ring suburbs many people would consider "urban" - are the most preferred. This goes across age groups, including (gasp) boomers.
http://transitcenter.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/WhosOnBoard2014-ForWeb.pdf
It's true. Rather than city vs. suburb, the real discussion should be about the type of built environment people prefer. More and more, that seems to be walkable, transit-oriented places.
Quote from: Dog Walker on September 19, 2014, 10:53:50 AM
Maybe people under 30 can't afford cars. ;)
Just today I heard a blurb on NPR that made this same argument. It may have been more centered on Student Loans, but the concept is the same.
For me, If I could find a job in the urban core to support me that I could get to by public transit or bike, I would park my truck and use it for the few times I have to leave Springfield.
And I am a boomer.
Quote from: finehoe on September 22, 2014, 02:01:02 PM
I'm not offended, nor am I screaming, but your time line is all off. Boomers didn't get in positions they could influence land use patterns until the late-70s at the earliest, and most of them not until the eighties. Urban and transit decline started in the 50s, excelerated in the 60s and probably hit bottom in the 70s. It was after the oil shocks of the 70s that people began to look once again at central city living. This trend really took off begining in the 90s--when millenials would have been too young to have much of an effect.
How do you figure that? The Boomer gen is defined as roughly being born between 1946-1964. So even in 1970, the beginning of them were WELL into their adulthood.
And I realize their parents didn't do them any favors by laying the groundwork for this trend, but like I said, it didn't really take off full force until the 70s & 80s (when Boomers had the ball, had families, got married, bought houses, kids, etc). Nothing was stopping that generation from realizing the problem, going in/living in/revitalizing these areas like younger gens are doing now, but they didn't & instead ran the other way. People quoting the production years of the Model T & the decline of the streetcars doesn't change that fact.
And while its true the turnaround started in the 90s & millennials were still too young to do anything, you're conveniently forgetting our Gen X friends. Who in my opinion (both as being a late one & just growing up in that era) have much more in common with millennials regarding these things than they do with Boomers.
Quote from: peestandingup on September 22, 2014, 06:19:40 PM
Nothing was stopping that generation from realizing the problem, going in/living in/revitalizing these areas like younger gens are doing now, but they didn't & instead ran the other way.
Here in Jacksonville, Riverside Avondale Preservation was formed in
1974. Springfield Preservation and Revitalization was founded the same year. Similar organizations were forming all over the country at the time, and it wasn't Gen-Xers and Millenials doing it.
Quote from: finehoe on September 22, 2014, 08:40:29 PM
Quote from: peestandingup on September 22, 2014, 06:19:40 PM
Nothing was stopping that generation from realizing the problem, going in/living in/revitalizing these areas like younger gens are doing now, but they didn't & instead ran the other way.
Here in Jacksonville, Riverside Avondale Preservation was formed in 1974. Springfield Preservation and Revitalization was founded the same year. Similar organizations were forming all over the country at the time, and it wasn't Gen-Xers and Millenials doing it.
And that should be commended. But yet, most of these places didn't start turning around until a decade ago (some were worse than others, Riverside for example). What happened from 1974 until then? My guess is the overall generational mindset started to swing back that way within the last decade until critical mass was reached, and those people who made that up were mostly Xers & Yers. Isn't that a fair assessment?
I mean, as much good work as they do, it takes more than a few preservation societies to truly bring a neighborhood back to life. People, lots of people, have to also be interested in that type of lifestyle & actually live there. This has pretty much been the story for most US urban areas within the last decade.
Quote from: stephendare on September 22, 2014, 01:22:56 PM
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on September 22, 2014, 01:21:39 PM
Quote from: stephendare on September 22, 2014, 12:08:40 PM
Its going to be interesting to be you in 10 years.
I'm confused.... (not really unusual)
So in 10 years, stephendare is going to be I-10east ? ??? ?
But for the grace of god. ;)
There comes a point where suicide is a viable option.
QuoteQuote from: finehoe on September 22, 2014, 11:22:33 AM
Quote from: peestandingup on September 21, 2014, 08:24:54 PM
It wasn't just transit that the Boomers helped destroy, as I'm sure you guys are aware. And just because a few here who are in that gen have their heads on straight doesn't mean the vast majority of your gen does (or did).
The total love affair with automobiles was under your watch, so was the complete abandoning of any & all urban areas, ushering in big box super centers (screw you, mom & pop), letting highways rip apart established urban fabric that actually had character & a history, etc. All of these things had tremendous negative consequences that we're just now starting to recover from. Boomers left & couldn't have cared less if you blew up these areas. Now they're bitching about all the money it takes to clean up the mess & trying to make up for the lost decades. Well, that'll happen won't it. Leave a cancerous mole on your body & then tell me how much more it costs to take care of it later on down the road.
You didn't have a choice? You actually did, but no one exercised it & was likely razzle dazzled by a lot of bullshit talk from all sides of the isle. A car doesn't define you (like they told you), a house in the burbs isn't a status symbol, wal-mart isn't your neighborhood buddy, huge lawns are stupid & wasteful, etc.
Like I said, most Boomers (not you guys) still hold onto these notions with an iron grip because acknowledging it would mean admitting they were wrong. And god forbid that happen. Hell, you can't go on a forum or city news site even today & read an article about transit, or bike lanes, or any other urban projects without hearing them still squawking about how we should just let it go, too much money, its a lost cause, etc.
This is total bullshit. It was the "greatest generation" who embraced the automobile and fled the cities for suburbia after WWII. The first boomers didn't turn 18 until 1964, and by then the decline of transit and the inner cities was already well on its way.
Yeah, and?? Post WWII adults may have started it, but its not like it happened all of a sudden. It didn't really start to ramp into high gear (then turn dire straights) until the 70s & 80s (peaking in the 90s) with all the above mentioned. Transport back in time & go to basically any urban area during those decades & watch them rot away. Hell, even NYC was a shithole then. Now imagine what it was like in normal urban areas across the country that weren't NYC. Gonna blame that one on their parents too? They were either retired by then, dying or already dead.
Let me ask you this. Did the Boomers do anything whatsoever during their reign to stop it or reverse these oncoming trends? Aside from a few instances in a handful of major cities (Lake mentioned a few)?? If the greatest gen started the courting, the Boomers crawled in bed with it, knocked it up & put a ring on it.
Screaming "well, they did it first, so meah!" doesn't exactly make for a good case. That's like saying my folks dabbled in marijuana, so that meant I had to be a full on crackhead. If the Boomers had any foresight, sense of community or caring whatsoever what the future might hold, then we wouldn't be nearly as in so deep with this stuff as we are now & sticking the newer adults with having to clean up the mess (and they are). Biggest "me first" generation the country's ever seen.
Again, I'm not talking directly to anyone on the forum so please don't take offense.
Absolutely wrong, do the math. Boomers were the result of a sudden post WWII influx of love starved adult males into the population. For the history challenged, the war ended in 1945, many were not back until 48' or later. So junior is born in 1948-49. He/She is 20 years old in 68/69 and responsible for the biggest social revolution/upheaval arguably in the history of man. The boomers invented the ecology movement, dabbled with electric cars, back to the earth movement, health foods, and using transit or car pooling (aka: 'hitching'). By the time 'we' (and I am one) had a BA, it was 1972/73, count 10 years for some serious seniority in society and you hit 82/83 and real change was on the boards. Add the 5-10 years required for these projects to get from drawing boards to streets and you are at 92/93. Our 'reign' is just now coming to an end... how do you like your infrastructure compared to 1968? YOUR WELCOME! No offense taken, but simply do the math, even the earliest of us Boomers effected massive change.
Quote from: peestandingup on September 22, 2014, 11:19:26 PM
And that should be commended. But yet, most of these places didn't start turning around until a decade ago (some were worse than others, Riverside for example). What happened from 1974 until then?
You would actually find that many of these places started turning around in the 1970s...but it took 10-20 years before tangible results could be seen by the public in general. Just like the trend toward suburbanization started in the 1930s but wasn't really noticed until the 1950s.
Quote from: Ocklawaha on September 23, 2014, 11:19:33 AM
There comes a point where suicide is a viable option.
Don't worry, the feeling is mutual. I guess I thought that you were better than you actually are... I say an opinion, 'you know who' jumps on me because I'm I-10east, all of 'you know who's' minions come to his defense like always...
Quote from: Ocklawaha on September 23, 2014, 11:20:06 AM
QuoteQuote from: finehoe on September 22, 2014, 11:22:33 AM
Quote from: peestandingup on September 21, 2014, 08:24:54 PM
It wasn't just transit that the Boomers helped destroy, as I'm sure you guys are aware. And just because a few here who are in that gen have their heads on straight doesn't mean the vast majority of your gen does (or did).
The total love affair with automobiles was under your watch, so was the complete abandoning of any & all urban areas, ushering in big box super centers (screw you, mom & pop), letting highways rip apart established urban fabric that actually had character & a history, etc. All of these things had tremendous negative consequences that we're just now starting to recover from. Boomers left & couldn't have cared less if you blew up these areas. Now they're bitching about all the money it takes to clean up the mess & trying to make up for the lost decades. Well, that'll happen won't it. Leave a cancerous mole on your body & then tell me how much more it costs to take care of it later on down the road.
You didn't have a choice? You actually did, but no one exercised it & was likely razzle dazzled by a lot of bullshit talk from all sides of the isle. A car doesn't define you (like they told you), a house in the burbs isn't a status symbol, wal-mart isn't your neighborhood buddy, huge lawns are stupid & wasteful, etc.
Like I said, most Boomers (not you guys) still hold onto these notions with an iron grip because acknowledging it would mean admitting they were wrong. And god forbid that happen. Hell, you can't go on a forum or city news site even today & read an article about transit, or bike lanes, or any other urban projects without hearing them still squawking about how we should just let it go, too much money, its a lost cause, etc.
This is total bullshit. It was the "greatest generation" who embraced the automobile and fled the cities for suburbia after WWII. The first boomers didn't turn 18 until 1964, and by then the decline of transit and the inner cities was already well on its way.
Yeah, and?? Post WWII adults may have started it, but its not like it happened all of a sudden. It didn't really start to ramp into high gear (then turn dire straights) until the 70s & 80s (peaking in the 90s) with all the above mentioned. Transport back in time & go to basically any urban area during those decades & watch them rot away. Hell, even NYC was a shithole then. Now imagine what it was like in normal urban areas across the country that weren't NYC. Gonna blame that one on their parents too? They were either retired by then, dying or already dead.
Let me ask you this. Did the Boomers do anything whatsoever during their reign to stop it or reverse these oncoming trends? Aside from a few instances in a handful of major cities (Lake mentioned a few)?? If the greatest gen started the courting, the Boomers crawled in bed with it, knocked it up & put a ring on it.
Screaming "well, they did it first, so meah!" doesn't exactly make for a good case. That's like saying my folks dabbled in marijuana, so that meant I had to be a full on crackhead. If the Boomers had any foresight, sense of community or caring whatsoever what the future might hold, then we wouldn't be nearly as in so deep with this stuff as we are now & sticking the newer adults with having to clean up the mess (and they are). Biggest "me first" generation the country's ever seen.
Again, I'm not talking directly to anyone on the forum so please don't take offense.
Absolutely wrong, do the math. Boomers were the result of a sudden post WWII influx of love starved adult males into the population. For the history challenged, the war ended in 1945, many were not back until 48' or later. So junior is born in 1948-49. He/She is 20 years old in 68/69 and responsible for the biggest social revolution/upheaval arguably in the history of man. The boomers invented the ecology movement, dabbled with electric cars, back to the earth movement, health foods, and using transit or car pooling (aka: 'hitching'). By the time 'we' (and I am one) had a BA, it was 1972/73, count 10 years for some serious seniority in society and you hit 82/83 and real change was on the boards. Add the 5-10 years required for these projects to get from drawing boards to streets and you are at 92/93. Our 'reign' is just now coming to an end... how do you like your infrastructure compared to 1968? YOUR WELCOME! No offense taken, but simply do the math, even the earliest of us Boomers effected massive change.
So wait. First you're claiming that the baby boom didn't happen until later (which is highly debatable) & thus weren't old enough to effect these things until much later (even though they were clearly adults & old enough to do what X & Y are doing now, even by your timeline). But then you were old enough to be responsible for the counter culture/hippie movement? Wow, that's some sweet mental gymnastics. Either you were or you werent, Ock.
Lol, you guys are too much. "We weren't old enough!" "People in their 20s/30s aren't really adults & can't do anything yet to effect change, thus your timeline is wrong!" "The 90s/2000s turnaround? Yeah, totally us." I love it. And hey, no one's saying anyone here who falls in that gen wasn't on board with these things during the time you had, but the generation overall were pretty much not. Like I said, the turnaround within just the last 10-15 years in urbanism has been really REALLY significant. Places that were complete & total shitholes did a total 180 in that time, in big numbers all over the country. Boomers do that too? Right. Now if these things were happening in the 70s/80s then sure, that was totally Boomer time when you guys were buying houses, getting married, having kids & setting trends. But it didn't. In fact, it was the worst part of it. But oh, I forgot. Boomers weren't old enough then to do anything. ::)
BTW, what was the outcome of that there social upheaval? Considering it fizzled out, hippies became yuppies & ultimately went the other way, I'd say not much. At the time I'm sure it felt like something real was happening, but my guess is many just used it as an excuse to do drugs, put off working & fuck anything with a pulse. Which I say more power to them. That's exactly what I'd do & wouldn't make no bones about it. :) But I certainly wouldn't think I was changing the world. Ultimately you're gonna lose in that situation & the go go machine will get its way eventually, just like with what happened with Occupy. You can't win & might as well join the party, which is exactly what happened.
Ignorance is bliss...
The baby boom did not start until the troops came home. OCCUPATION of Europe and Japan took quite a few years. The boom heated up between 45-50. I used 48 as an average, as the saying among the troops was 'The Golden Gate in 48'.
That puts 1969 before adulthood. (you were not an adult until 21 then... of course we got that changed to). Add university time. Add some effective maturity and again you are at 1980. I'm in the transportation industry and as Ennis, Wiatt, or myself can tell you. NONE OF THOSE CHANGES were made by 25-30 year old government officials, consultants, engineers and planners... the guys at the top were all pushing 50-60 and they are the ones signing the checks today.
Your grasp of history seems rather poor. ;)
QuoteYour grasp of history seems rather poor. ;)
K, Ock. We'll all pretend adulthood then conveniently wasn't until somewhere in your 40s so it helps your case.
QuoteThe Millennial Generation (18- to 29-years old) will be a predominantly suburban generation, contends a new study by the Demand Institute based on a survey of 1,000 Millennial households. Significant majorities of the younger generation aspire to owning a single-family home and consider automobiles a necessity, while a 48% plurality expresses a preference to live in the "suburbs" over an urban or rural environment.
http://www.demandinstitute.org/sites/default/files/blog-uploads/millennials-and-their-homes-final.pdf
(http://media.bizj.us/view/img/3849891/img1285*600xx3264-2176-0-136.jpg)
The mayors of Tampa, St. Petersburg, Clearwater and Lakeland...
More 'Millennials bringing you mass transit!' ;)