Killing Connectivity. The Downtown 'Loop' System
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-4751-robertmosesimagelarge.jpg)
At the end of the 1960's Jacksonville was beginning to grapple with a few problems universal to the times. White Flight (primarily to Arlington with the opening of the new super Mall , Regency Square.) emptying the core neighborhoods of affluent residents and any real diversity
Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/785
Huh? ??? How could we possibly kill connectivity? That's ridiculous! We all due respect, but I don't like the idea of how we think of some of our city leaders and architects as bad influences to downtown. Despite the mishaps and the most of the retail moving to the suburbs, I personally thought the 1971 Master Plan had absolutely NO intention of driving away the retail business. It's original idea of the plan was really about building and revitalization, NOT destruction (even though there were a lot of surface parking lots made during that time). Interesting article though,...I think. ::)
Here's an image from the 1950s before FCCJ's campus was constructed. One can clearly see that downtown's urban building fabric stretched from the river all the way to Hogans Creek on several streets including Ocean, Main, Laura and Hogan.
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/images/history/downtown_waterfront_history/main-river-background.jpg)
I always wondered why the streets were like that. That's pretty amazing.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3228/2487152112_b40ab9049f_o.jpg)
Regarding street patterns, change is being made, or at least, proposed.
A. Julia will be reversed to head south.
B. Pearl will reopen as a two way when the courthouse is built and completed.
C. Laura will become a two way from Hemming to Independent.
The biggest obstacle will remain FCCJ's campus. The best way that can be overcome is to make sure the future expansion plans have an urban oriented format to encourage foot traffic, currently hidden inside of the school, to become more visual and interactive with its surroundings.
The city maintained streets would be easier to do, which is being done (or talked about) to a large extent. The FDOT maintained streets (Main, Ocean, Forsyth, Adams, etc.) would be more difficult, but its been done before.
Quote from: stephendare on May 12, 2008, 01:44:55 PM
to really help though, they need to make all the streets 2 way
While it would be nice, I don't think that is necessary to make our downtown thrive. San Diego is a classic example of a mid-sized downtown thriving with a ton of one-ways. However, they're one ways are laaid out in a logical pattern, unlike ours.
Plus, Jacksonville had a lot of one ways going way back. However, not nearly the amount they have today.
Stephen...this discussion has already been had on a previous thread...and you even admitted that Main/Ocean, State/Union, and Lee/Broad are justified as one-way
Not all one-way streets are bad...Please stop making blanket statements
We would have probably ended up with a crosstown expressway really cutting off downtown from Springfield if State & Union were not converted to one-way streets. Today, they carry so much traffic that they are the real commercial corridors that the city should look at for inner city retail development. Although most consider them death traps to cross, crossing would not be as much of an issue if there were a reason to cross on foot.
and while Main/Ocean don't carry as much traffic as State/Union, they do carry much more than could be handled by 2 two-lane roads...if you squeezed 4 lanesd onto one of them, there would either be problem with turning movements (no room for turn lanes) and/or no room for on-street parking.
Other than the 3 pairs I mentioned, I would agree that almost everything else could be converted....the only other potentially viable one-way pair is Bay/Forsyth
Here's a good look at Main before it became a one way street. It appears to be five lanes with no parallel parking. Did the city shrink the width of the road at some point?
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-4727-main-forysth.jpg)
I believe, as part of the Loop Streets projects, the sidewalks along Main were widened, making the road narrower. As said in the article, that was the thinking then - wider sidewalks = better environment for pedestrians = more pedestrians (forgetting that tearing down everything else would have the opposite result)
I think thelakelander hit the nail on the head about State/Union, it has probably been a one-way pair since the Mathews was built in the mid 1950s., and the alternative would be an expressway - a much more "solid" barrier.
Regarding Ocean Street being cut off - there was a proposal back in the 1970s to extend it across the park, but local opposition to carving up more of the park stopped it.
About the JTA station cutting off Downtown/Springfied access - I believe FCCJ was there long before the JTA "FCCJ Station" was built. Although, if the college opens up Hogan Street (which would require a change of attitude, given the tall fences all the way 'round campus), then the JTA station would be in the way.
QuoteI believe, as part of the Loop Streets projects, the sidewalks along Main were widened, making the road narrower. As said in the article, that was the thinking then - wider sidewalks = better environment for pedestrians = more pedestrians (forgetting that tearing down everything else would have the opposite result)
Those sidewalks must have been pretty thin because the ones today don't look that wide. I assume the lanes in that old photo above must have been around 10' wide, instead of 12'.
since this has been brought back up, here's an update...
JEDC has advertised a Request for Proposals (RFP) for a consultant to do a traffic study which includes evaluating the effects of changing portions of Julia, Pearl, Adams and Monroe Streets from 1-way to 2-way
If all goes smoothly, the study should be done by fall 2011.
While I feel they are misguided, there are still traffic ops people (both at the City and FDOT) who care primarily about vehicle LOS and signal delay...as such, the study will evaluate all the potentially affected intersections.
Quotethese people are vogons, and should be taken out and flogged.
Sorry but the term sounded familiar... I had to look it up... :)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vogon
QuoteThe Vogons are a fictional alien race from the planet Vogsphere in The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy series by Douglas Adams. Vogons are slug-like but vaguely humanoid, are bulkier than humans and have green skin, although the movie has them have greyish white skin . Vogons are described as mindlessly bureaucratic, aggressive, having "as much sex appeal as a road accident" and the writers of "the third worst poetry in the universe". They are employed as the galactic government's bureaucrats.
No question that Beaver, State and Union have destroyed the connection between DT and Springfield. One solution to restoring the pedestrian connectivity is a northward extension of the Skyway through the FSCJ campus. There even appears to be a corridor set aside for just such a purpose. The route could angle east at a 45 degree and terminate in the JEA parking lot at the corner of First & Main. That would provide better access to Hogan's Creek Park and the business on Main Street.
(http://i46.tinypic.com/2yv6gz4.jpg)
this is very sad. We destroyed our city for the sake of segregation and racism. Not to mention the expressway purposely being built to separate the whites from the blacks. Now I understand why we were criticized for not having the infrastructure to support the super bowl. Our Urban core is logistically screwed up!!
Quote from: dougskiles on May 03, 2012, 08:30:02 AM
No question that Beaver, State and Union have destroyed the connection between DT and Springfield. One solution to restoring the pedestrian connectivity is a northward extension of the Skyway through the FSCJ campus. There even appears to be a corridor set aside for just such a purpose. The route could angle east at a 45 degree and terminate in the JEA parking lot at the corner of First & Main. That would provide better access to Hogan's Creek Park and the business on Main Street.
and connect to the streetcar system which as proposed would come up Newell/Hibbard to First and then over to Main St
Regency is about dead as any viable competition to downtown. It make for a perfect opportunity for a group of people to come in and create a better downtown that is a bit more of a comfortable experience. After having spent a significant amount of time downtown, specifically in the Hemming Plaza area, only reinforced my dislike for downtown going back to when I first came to the area in late 1988.
Quote from: duvaldude08 on May 03, 2012, 12:58:58 PM
this is very sad. We destroyed our city for the sake of segregation and racism. Not to mention the expressway purposely being built to separate the whites from the blacks. Now I understand why we were criticized for not having the infrastructure to support the super bowl. Our Urban core is logistically screwed up!!
Criticized? We were the laughing stock of the country that week.....welcome to good ole' conservative Jax.
^ care to expound on this?
"There was a Papal decree, ex cathedra, from all of Cristiandom ordering John Birch and all of the EVIL forces on the right, to prevent Jacksonville, Florida form moving forward. ...Oh yeah, and the decree was issued at First Baptist Church, after which there has NEVER been another religious business person to set foot in the downtown core."
Guess we're screwed.
(Just thought I'd save him the effort, LOL)
OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: stephendare on May 12, 2008, 09:39:42 AM
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3228/2487152112_b40ab9049f_o.jpg)
Thanks Lake, the picture marvelously illustrates the change. And Jeh, Its not that the planners of the time had the intention of destroying the retail, in fact it was the opposite.
But that was the outcome.
Downtown was faced with competition from Malls which offered free parking, security, great service, and new stores.
The intent was to create a 'plaza' equipped with 'modern' conveniences like elevated, moving sidewalks. But it took WAY too long to dig up the roads and repave them with bricks.
I was just discovering downtown as a teenager when it happened. None of the stores had easy access in hemming park, and you couldn't park for blocks because the streets were all torn up. It lasted 18 months and by the time it was done, the stores were closed.
When people had to park 5 blocks away from the stores, there was no way at all to get back to their cars before they were issued a ticket. The meter maids picked off what was left of the suburban customers and drove them permanently out of downtown.
Springfield was completely shut off by the road redirection (on purpose) to cut down on 'crime'.
The reasons which supported this tedious replatting and redirection are gone now.
We need to fix it, and examine the underlying reasons why regional malls were able to compete so devastatingly (free parking, security) and reconnect downtown with its residential component (springfield and durkeeville)
LaVilla School of the Arts does the same thing to Church Street heading east.
Is no one going to state the obvious? It doesn't matter what is done to union and state street, the bulk of "desirable" people (forgive me i know that's not PC, just could word it any other way) are not going to go down there until the area is cleaned up. I work downtown so i spend plenty of time here. Every time i walk north of the JEA building its like i stick out b/c i am one of the fewer clean cut looking people. I am constantly asked for money, and if we are being honest that alone will make most people uncomfortable. No middle class single female would dare walk this area alone in the current situation. The homeless shelters combined with the huge JTA station just simply make that whole area seem dirty. I dont think i am any better than these people nor i am judging them, but lets be real, having them hang all over the northern part of downtown is not doing that area any favors.
/\ while some might say this is harsh, I soooo agree... I work at JEA and I do not feel comfortable walking anywhere near union/state street.
Hmm...I'd bet the house that if there was not a soul on the street, you all would still not be walking in the area. The same thing was said about Hemming Park a few years back. The true problem is the same one Hemming had. There's really no reason for most to walk over there. The soup kitchens don't help but it's pretty hostile with all the blank walls, fences, bad lighting, fast moving traffic, vacant overgrown lots and surface parking lots. If there was a reason to walk in the area or cross the streets on a regular basis, people would and the perceived negatives about "desirable" people would fall as well.
It is not really bad to walk. The light turns red, and you walk across. The cars sit there. You just cross four lanes. :P For real though, if there was stuff to do there, people would be willing to walk.
Forsyth is a race way at time to the Hart but I don't find it hard to walk when the light is red.
They aren't hard to walk or cross. There's just no reason for most to even consider doing so on a regular basis.
Government planning usually makes things worst instead of better. If downtown is so valuable, private industry will figure that out and invest accordingly. Jacksonville Landing and creations like it are the product of government planning. Works for awhile, but eventually struggles.