QuoteRestaurant owners hope to see more customers freed of parking worries
(http://www.jacksonville.com/images/mdControlled/cms/2008/05/02/274561345.jpg)
By LARRY HANNAN, The Times-Union
Johnny Hamparsoumian gets a good lunch crowd now at Hovan Mediterranean Gourmet restaurant on Park Street. But he hopes the crowds get better Monday when a new trolley service will be dropping passengers off right outside his front door.
Starting Monday, the service will be offered from The Jacksonville Landing downtown to Five Points. The trolley will run weekdays from 10:30 a.m. to 2:30 p.m. and will pick people up at Water and Laura streets and drop them off at Margaret Street and Riverside Avenue, then loop around to Park Street and right next to Hamparsoumian's restaurant.
A trolley will come around every 10 minutes. People can also get on or off at other trolley and bus stops along Riverside Avenue.
The cost will be 50 cents a ride, but through May 16 the trolley will be free as the Jacksonville Transportation Authority tries to build ridership. Riders can also use their existing bus pass.
full article: http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/050208/met_274561171.shtml
Nice! Hopefully this line will explode. Sounds like it could be a winner for the downtown lunch crowd looking for something else to eat but don't want to get in the car.
To be truely successful I think they'll need to extend the hours to catch the dinner and clubbing crowds in 5 points and the Landing.
A few thoughts:
1. These are not freaking trolleys. They are old timey looking buses. The intentional misuse of the word "trolley" by JTA really annoys me.
2. How is it good for downtown merchants and restaurants to ship to Five Points many of their customers (with the cost of transporting the customers being indirectly paid by the same downtown merchants)? Five Points is already packed at lunch anyway.
3. Why not run this darn thing all the time rather than just at lunchtime?
It's a start...........
Looks like they where getting lots of action about 11:45. People stacked up outside of BCBS, Everbank and the other south Brooklyn employers.
Quote from: JeffreyS on May 05, 2008, 01:34:02 PM
Looks like they where getting lots of action about 11:45. People stacked up outside of BCBS, Everbank and the other south Brooklyn employers.
Well, I must say, I was not on the trolley today, but it actually looks like JTA rolled this one out pretty well. Over the weekend, I noticed that all of the signs were at the stops - and it looked like all of the words on these trolley signs were spelled right. In addition, the signs were visible from both directions - not just the direction of traffic flow.
Good for JTA. I noticed the new bus stop signs this past weekend as well.
QuoteHamparsoumian said the novelty of riding the trolleys may help bring people to Five Points. His hope is those people will stop at his restaurant for lunch and like it enough to keep returning.
(http://static.flickr.com/2314/2150188615_269310657e.jpg)
If this statement wasn't so stupid, I'd get up off the floor and call the guy... "The Novelty of Riding a Trolley?" Reminds me of the time I rode a bull, the damned thing nearly killed me until the Wal-Mart manager ran out the front door and un-plugged it!JTA earns a C- for this "Thing" at least this one doesn't appear to be built on the PCT frame, and might indeed be a real transit bus. Translation, it won't ride like a turnip truck as the others do, but when the "new" wears off, don't expect huge ridership increases because it's a cardboard trolley... The APTA says tourist ridership will NEVER happen, though some locals may be duluded by it. Ocklawaha
I do not see the tourist thing happening but it ends right at The villas of St. Johns, 1661, The big retirement building at Memorial park at least three other apt. complexes and the most pedestrian freindly section of town.
They also had a rep at every stop with goodies and a tent with a DJ outside of the riverside Starbucks. You know the potato chip truck is not ideal but the ridership imo shouldn't be a problem.
Quote from: RiversideGator on May 02, 2008, 02:56:42 PM
2. How is it good for downtown merchants and restaurants to ship to Five Points many of their customers (with the cost of transporting the customers being indirectly paid by the same downtown merchants)? Five Points is already packed at lunch anyway.
uhh...maybe because the "trolley" runs in both directions....so it brings Riverside Avenue and 5 Points folks to downtown too!
Good point tufsu1. There are also plenty of buisnesses and office buildings in between with limited options.
Hopefully this thing takes off and the hours are expanded.
I work on Riverside at Fidelity and I for one am so glad this trolly is operational. Going to lunch from Fidelity to downtown is a PAIN. To be able to hop on the trolley without dealing with 5 Points' traffic or downtown's parking was great!
Tomorrow, lunch downtown without having to leave early to find parking or pay $2 to park at the landing.
Now, if we can only get this going after ours and during the weekends (or am I'm thinking too hard)
Quote from: tufsu1 on May 05, 2008, 02:15:41 PM
Quote from: RiversideGator on May 02, 2008, 02:56:42 PM
2. How is it good for downtown merchants and restaurants to ship to Five Points many of their customers (with the cost of transporting the customers being indirectly paid by the same downtown merchants)? Five Points is already packed at lunch anyway.
uhh...maybe because the "trolley" runs in both directions....so it brings Riverside Avenue and 5 Points folks to downtown too!
So, you think the traffic will go both ways? It appears to me that the whole point was to facilitate the transfer of downtowners to Riverside for lunch.
Correction: If webini is your standard worker, then maybe this will bring people downtown. I hope it works either way.
Do the stops have route maps included for wayfinding?
I took the trolley downtown for lunch today. Me and other employees from Fidelity and BlueC ross made up more than half the riders going. This was in the 11 o'clock hour, so I could only guess that the numbers increased during normal lunch hours. Also, everyone that i've spoken to or taken lunch with are more interested in going downtown since 5 points is really the norm to us. It's a short and easy walk (even during the summer months) so it's not like we're missing out of the experience due to distance or traffic, unlike with the Landing and other places downtown.
Quote from: Jason on May 06, 2008, 01:40:54 PM
Do the stops have route maps included for wayfinding?
There was a map on the potato chip truck sign at the riverside Starbucks. I don't know if the rest have maps. I will check.
FOR THE LOVE OF SAINT ELMO'S FIRE... and the 10,000Th time...
"To my deluded City and it's minions with love"
(http://www.downtownjacksonville.org/dynimages/page_media/wide.5.jpg)
This is a Jacksonville PCT "Trolley" which is really a bus on a truck frame with fake details to attempt to fool you into believing you are really high quality enough to warrant a "Real Trolley"... Which our dumb press has bought hook line and sinker. Take a hard look at the VEHICLE not the window dressing and what do you see?
(http://static.flickr.com/2052/2418283362_8848b63767.jpg)
You see this! THIS IS A POTATO CHIP TRUCK! Lay's, Wise, Charles, Humpty Dumpty and JACKSONVILLE TRANSPORTATION AUTHORITY, we all have them, only we LIE about what they really are!
(http://static.flickr.com/81/256227130_265df951a6.jpg)
THIS IS A TROLLEY, a classic wood car 100 years old and still rolling...So what makes it a "Trolley"? For the unknowing, that thing on top of the long pole up top is a "Trolley Pole" and on it's end is a "Trolley Wheel" which picks up 600 volt DC from the overhead wire. Which is why these are "TROLLEYS" and NOT cable cars, or Potato Chip Trucks.
(http://static.flickr.com/98/234040042_81162c56f3.jpg)
THESE ARE TROLLEYS, amazing how little they look like a potato chip trucks, be it a classic PETER WITT low floor classic on the right, or a newer CLRT car on the left. For the unknowing, that thing on top of the long pole up top is a "Trolley Pole" and on it's end is a "Trolley Wheel" which picks up 600 volt DC from the overhead wire. Which is why these are "TROLLEYS" and NOT cable cars, or Potato Chip Trucks.
(http://static.flickr.com/2339/1492255150_038235cfe8.jpg)
OH LOOK, here comes the Jacksonville Potato Chip Truck "trolley Thing", NOT! This little unit is in Germany and is running through a parkway just like our old Trolleys used to do. LOOK MOM, NO CARS! NO GAS! ...and they told us in 1932 that buses were MORE flexible. Bet we bought that bridge in Brooklyn too, because they are still lying to us and we're still a bunch of parrots...
Ocklawaha
THE TRANSIT MONSTER
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/GRAPHIC-LOGODOCTORED.jpg)
Ock I will adjust my postings accordingly. ;D
Quote from: JeffreyS on May 06, 2008, 02:23:50 PM
Quote from: Jason on May 06, 2008, 01:40:54 PM
Do the stops have route maps included for wayfinding?
There was a map on the trolly sign at the riverside Starbucks. I don't know if the rest have maps. I will check.
The signs at each stop appear to be identical
Quote from: RiversideGator on May 06, 2008, 11:35:28 AM
Correction: If webini is your standard worker, then maybe this will bring people downtown. I hope it works either way.
read the article in today's paper....it mentions a couple who went to the Landing yesterday for the first time....and they went by trolley from Riverside
also, nobody really cares what the trolleys really are...other than Ock!
Quote from: tufsu1 on May 06, 2008, 03:32:28 PMalso, nobody really cares what the trolleys really are...other than Ock!
Uh, I don't know if I'd say that - I'm with Ock on that one
I think that if we were to install REAL trolleys, you'd have a lot of benefits that you wouldn't necessarily get with a trolley bus. For example, one big one is the element of permanency - right now, if they want to change the route, they just do it. With track, it's not that simple.
For example, John Porcari of the Maryland DOT states that "one of the advantages of fixed guideway - heavy or light rail - is that you can make a reasonable assumptions that stations will be there years from now". This in turn creates economic development opportunities that would not previously be there.
Case in point - give me any example of a Transit Orinted Development around a BRT Station. Now, give me an example of a TOD around fixed guide rail (you shouldn't have to look very hard, there is probably 25 on this site).
You're right Steve. However, this is a teaser to guage the potential impact of a streetcar line along that route in the future. Contrary to popular belief, the JTA IS studying the feasiblity of streetcar lines through the historic neighborhoods. This is just the first step towards creating the buzz.
Quote from: Jason on May 06, 2008, 05:12:14 PM
You're right Steve. However, this is a teaser to guage the potential impact of a streetcar line along that route in the future. Contrary to popular belief, the JTA IS studying the feasiblity of streetcar lines through the historic neighborhoods. This is just the first step towards creating the buzz.
I know they are studying this - however, is a four hour a day trolley bus really enough to gauge permanent, fixed guide transit? Maybe, but I'm not sure.
This is definately not a teaser to guage the potential impact of a streetcar. Its well known that you can't use buses as a means to guage rail ridership levels. The Riverside Trolley is just a vehicle that meets the needs of getting Riverside and Downtown workers back and forth for lunch.
Probably not, but it is a start. Didn't mean to call you out either. Of all the crap we all give the JTA it is good to be reminded that there are a few over there that are making the right moves.
Quote from: Jason on May 06, 2008, 05:36:37 PM
Probably not, but it is a start. Didn't mean to call you out either. Of all the crap we all give the JTA it is good to be reminded that there are a few over there that are making the right moves.
Totally agree - while I'll be the first to slam JTA for doing something stupid, I'll be the first to give them a compliment when they do something right. They definitely did a few things right with this one, particularly signage at the stops.
Why should we care if it's a PCT or a Trolley? Here's a statement from an old friend and publisher, by way of the official pages of the AMERICAN PUBLIC TRANSPORTATION ASSOCIATION APTA Website:Quote
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The New Electric Railway Journal
Real Streetcars Outdraw Fakes
Ed Strauss
Riders eagerly pay a dollar to ride Tucson's historic streetcar line while a rubber-tired "trolley bus" with a 25-cent fare gets hall the ridership.
Car 255 cost OPT $820 to buy but $27,000 to ship from Osaka, Japan. *(and we're sitting on an authentic subway-trolley conversion! OCK)
Starting on April 17, 1993, Tucson unwittingly began a test of whether riders prefer genuine streetcars or rubber-tired ersatz trolleys. So tar the electric choice seems to be well ahead. During May, the first full month of operation, three times as many riders paid four times as much to ride half as far in the newly restored rail line than they would have paid to ride m a modern “trolley†bus.
A ride on the historic line costs one dollar while the SunTran shuttle bus fare is twenty-five cents. The trolley line is only one mile in length while the bus route is about two miles and connects more activity centers including downtown Tucson and the convention center. Further discouraging riders, the streetcar only runs three days a week while the bus runs six days.
Although the streetcar duplicates the university end of the bus route, operating hours are such that Saturday daytime is the only period during the week that the two modes directly compete. Current streetcar hours are Friday, 6 P.M. to midnight; Saturday, 10A.M. to midnight; and Sunday, noon to 6 P.M. The dressed-up buses operate Monday through Saturday, daytime only.
Seasonal variation is blamed for cutting ridership from the May high of 4,227 to only 2,115 inJune. That is when Tucson’s hot summer weather began, keeping people inside. Also, the university; which supplied many of the riders, closed for the summer.
Back to the Past
The two restored streetcars that began operating in April were the first in Tucson since December 31, 1930. When the streetcar rails were covered over with asphalt on Tucson’s University Boulevard after the last car ran in 1930, no one thought that some day the very same rails would be uncovered and streetcar service would resume.
Service began on April 17 with much fanfare. Old Pueblo Trolley, Inc. was organized in 1983 to raise funds and enthuse volunteers to get a trolley running. It was not easy as W. Eugene Caywood would attest after his successful ten-year struggle as head of OPT. Although the project was quickly endorsed by both the city of Tucson and the state of Arizona, a bond issue failed in May, 1984. By then, however, a critical mass of enthusiasm had been brought together which kept the project in forward motion.
About a million dollars in aid, half from the state of Arizona and half from corporate donations, contributed to the effort. The state aid was intended as a light-rail demonstration. State Senator Peter Goudinoff believes it maybe possible to build light-rail lines in the Tucson area using San Diego’s system as a model. Caywood believes that if SunTran, the local transit agency; were to decide to initiate light-rail service, Old Pueblo Trolley would remain separate but share rails, such as in San Jose, California.
Car 10
In March 1985, a single-truck Birney Safety Car was leased from the Orange Empire Railway Museum in California. The former Pacific Electric car was very similar to those used by the old Tucson Rapid Transit Company. The leased car was numbered 10, the number of a 1918 TRTBirney that had been the most modern of Tucson’s twelve cars.
Many of the wooden parts were replaced as the frame, interior and roof were rebuilt. All mechanical and electrical components were replaced or refurbished. With all the effort by OPT volunteers and support received from other streetcar museums, Car 10 is now the most completely restored Birney Car operating on urban right-of-way in the U.S.
That right-of-way, all in city streets, consists of approximately a half mile on University Boulevard from the entrance to the University of Arizona to Fourth Avenue where the trolley route turns left to proceed another half mile to the end of the line at the car barn. The route is single track except for a short passing section at the Fourth Avenue-University Boulevard intersection.
Electric overhead was installed by volunteer linemen who were members of the International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers, Local 1116, using equipment loaned by Tucson Electric Power, the local electrical utility. The overhead was designed by OPT vice president and electrical engineer Dick Guthrie with the advice and assistance of Galen Sarno of the San Francisco Municipal Railway.
OPT operates under an agreement with the city, requiting that all cars be equipped with horns and turn signals and that operators hold valid commercial driver licenses.
A Second Car
Deciding that more than one streetcar would be needed to provide reliable service, the OPT board of directors bought a second car in fully operable condition which was delivered from Osaka, Japan in November of 1992. The car, manufactured in 1953, arrived with Japanese advertising cards, all of which were still in place when the car entered service in Tucson. Although the car was built in Japan, it is a design based on cars built by Brill in Philadelphia in 1923.
Both cars have turned out to be quite reliable although car 10 did go into the shops later on opening day for an air leak. After repairs the next day the car has performed without breakdown. The two cars have been alternating assignments so that both are on the street about the amount same of time, although car 10 does not operate after 10 P.M. because its noisy wheels and bearings might disturb residents.
Currently, trolleys run only three days weekly. However, there are plans to expand both hours of service and route. The most likely route extension would be to continue on Fourth Avenue into the downtown transit center, adding about another mile of track, duplicating the route of the SunTran “trolley†bus and possibly replacing it.
Ed Strauss is publisher of Bus World magazine and a frequent contributor to The New Electric Railway Journal
You can NOT ride a Volkswagen Riverside to test the success of a train at the Trout River! Ocklawaha
I also work at Fidelity and caught the trolley from BCBS to Five Points. Ten of us boarded around 12:20 after waiting for 10 minutes and met another 14 passengers. The stops were logical and convenient and we got off in front of Al's. For our return trip, we boarded in front of Starbucks and were dropped off at 601 Riverside. Tomorrow we head to The Landing.
Overall, everyone was excited. Not only did the driver sound the trolley bell, but each ride allowed us to enjoy a break during the day and not bother with parking or traffic. Plus, the $0.50 one-way fare doesn't begin until the 19th.
I'm a stickler about semantics, too. A trolley is nearly silent and definately doesn't leave a cloud behind. A real trolley is to trolley bus as Cadillac is to Chevette.
Bus routes are flexible, but the only flexible buses I know of can be found here: Slinky Bus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Articulated_bus) :-X
Quote from: JaxNole on May 06, 2008, 08:46:25 PM
I also work at Fidelity and caught the trolley from BCBS to Five Points. Ten of us boarded around 12:20 after waiting for 10 minutes and met another 14 passengers. The stops were logical and convenient and we got off in front of Al's. For our return trip, we boarded in front of Starbucks and were dropped off at 601 Riverside. Tomorrow we head to The Landing.
Overall, everyone was excited. Not only did the driver sound the trolley bell, but each ride allowed us to enjoy a break during the day and not bother with parking or traffic. Plus, the $0.50 one-way fare doesn't begin until the 19th.
Out of curiosity, will your riding patterns change on May 19th, when it is no longer free? If there is a hangup with this project, I think this will be it. I see no reason to charge for this service, especially with the rest of the trolleys being free - I think it will be very confusing.
I will ride the trolley as frequently as we decide to eat in Five Points or Downtown. Cost is not an issue, although it would be nice not to have fares. Accounting for how much fuel is burned driving through the garage, in midday traffic and circling for parking (throw in parking fees at The Landing) and then back, I think at worst I'm even. An added plus is socializing with others I may not come in contact with on a daily basis. Did I mention I don't like driving and the parking hassle during the day? :)
Those I have talked to don't see the fare as a deterrent. We're happy to ride in a comfortable trolley that provides more lunch options by stopping at many places of interest. Some of my friends and I are even planning a picnic at Memorial Park this Friday.
Good point about the temporary free ride. It would make sence to at least keep the service free just like the other "trolly" lines.
My boss and I decided to try out the trolley to see how it was working. We went kind of late (1:30), but even then the ride downtown was nearly full. We did have to drive to the stop from the RADO office, however. But I accept that we weren't really the folks the thing was built for (office is at Stockton and College, with a staff of three, and there isn't much disposable income in nonprofit salaries), and we might have walked if we'd had more time. Regardless of that, or the potato-chip truck thing...it felt like transit. It felt GOOD. People seemed really happy about it. The route maps at all the stops are such a forehead-slappingly obvious, but extremely positive improvement over JTA's bus stop signage.
It's hard not to get excited when J-ville throws you a bone, transit-wise. But I think it's pretty backwards to build a single mode around a single economic activity, i.e. folks who work on Riverside Ave buying lunch at a restaurant in either downtown or Five Points. Real transit provides for all sorts of activity, like not driving to work (freeing you to spend your money elsewise than on gas), or going to dinner, or going out to bars, or going to a friend's house, or going to the Community Garden in Springfield, or church, for those who do that.
The trolley-bus experiment is a really positive thing. But I agree that permanent infrastructure would be worlds better for the social and economic development of downtown. I was just looking over the photos from the 1950s...I can't believe it. What the hell did we do?!
I don't even dare hope, but I'm dying to see this city figure out mass transit. Keep up the good work, MJ.
This was probably the best rollout of a new service that I have ever seen JTA do. In particular, I thought the signs were excellent - they can be seen from a block away, and they were distinctive, letting you know this was not a bus stop but a trolley stop. In addition, the route map on the back is a great touch.
Nice Job, JTA
Has there been mention of the prospect of extending the hours and/or route (i.e. San Marco) if there is continued success?
Quote from: blizz01 on May 07, 2008, 10:37:53 AM
Has there been mention of the prospect of extending the hours and/or route (i.e. San Marco) if there is continued success?
I can see them extending the hours before the route. Remember, if you extend the route, you can't cover the region with every 10 minute headways unless you have another vehicle.
It's amazing what happens when they connect destinations instead of driving the trolleys in circles through abandoned parts of downtown.
RiversideGator:
The name "Trolley" was not a product of JTA marketing but is the name given to the vehicle by Gillig, the manufacturer. Check out their website at the following address: http://www.gillig.com/New%20GILLIG%20WEB/trolley.htm
Quote from: Lunican on May 07, 2008, 11:05:22 AM
It's amazing what happens when they connect destinations instead of driving the trolleys in circles through abandoned parts of downtown.
I think the loop thing is the worst - they loops only go in one direction, so if I need to get from point B to point A, I have to go to points C-Z to get there. This is one of the things that killed the San Marco Trolley (aside from the fact that nobody knew what the hell the hibiscus line was)
Thanks Mike, but I think you may have just incited a long posting from Ocklawaha...
I am in five points again today at Scribes and people are loving the new service.
I would become a regular rider if the hours were extended beyond lunch. I live in Riverside on the P3 and I would welcome the option of leaving the car at home while I am at work.
Hopefully JTA will extend the hours if the initial times prove popular. The morning and afternoon rush hours are natural first additions to the service.
QuoteRiverside Trolley exceeds expectations
The new Riverside Trolley service started Monday by the Jacksonville Transportation Authority drew 362 riders on its first day of service. The service was much more popular on its first day than JTA officials expected.
"We thought it would be popular, but these numbers far exceeded our expectations," said Michael Blaylock, executive director and CEO of the JTA.
http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/stories/2008/05/05/daily19.html
I think its apparent that Jaxsons want transit.
As I looked out the office window today, I noticed a healthy amount of riders at the Fidelity and BCBS trolley stops.
Great job with the sign, JTA
(http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a293/nole1977/IMG_0382.jpg)
Here is a stalker photo from Tuesday
(http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a293/nole1977/IMG_0364.jpg)
QuoteMikeMiller JTA
Member
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RiversideGator:
The name "Trolley" was not a product of JTA marketing but is the name given to the vehicle by Gillig, the manufacturer. Check out their website at the following address: http://www.gillig.com/New%20GILLIG%20WEB/trolley.htm
QuoteLunican
Metro Jacksonville
Hero Member
Re: Trolleys to roll into Five Points
« Reply #40 on: May 07, 2008, 11:13:54 AM » Quote
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Thanks Mike, but I think you may have just incited a long posting from Ocklawaha...
BUT OF COURSE DARLING!
Thanks for the confidence! LOL! Gee, I'm getting a "god syndrome" with you guys... really I Don't bite!
MIKE MILLER IS CORRECT 100% on this one. It is marketing and the marketing is wrong... It's okay because most Americans don't have a clue what a "TROLLEY" is in the first place... So here's the skinny on the word:
(http://static.flickr.com/3171/2286184619_b8446971c3.jpg)
TROLLEY: The "Trolley" is really that little wheel that rolls along the overhead wire to collect electricity and thus power the vehicle. Usually at 600 volts DC. These wheels are mounted on a spring loaded pole that keeps constant tension or contact with the wire. When running inside buildings or under bridges the systems often run off the wire and onto a upside-down "U" channel, known as a Trolley Pan. This prevents the wire from chaffing on the overhead. Rail cars need only a single pole as with Direct Current the negative charge is harmless and passes through the steel into the rails, this completes the Positive/Negative circuit.
So what about?
(http://www001.upp.so-net.ne.jp/shintaro/torolly.jpg)
TROLLEY BUSES: Yep, they are TRUE Trolleys "IF" they have the twin poles that contact the overhead wires. Everything works just as above with the flexibility of being able to swing out (somewhat) around a stalled car or accident. The downside is the twin poles and wires as rolling on rubber tires prevents a complete circuit and there is no way to ground the bus. So one wire is positive and the other negative.
So what about San Francisco's Famous "Trolleys"?
Fact, San Francisco has a great trolley network both rail and bus, but if you are talking about the cable cars then NO, THEY ARE NOT TROLLEYS. They have no power onboard, and are pulled along on a rope cable laid in a slot in the middle of the track. A grip grabs the cable and with giant pulleys in the street and powerhouse, the cars are yanked up and over the myrid hills in the City. Cable cars are NOT Trolleys.
POTATO CHIP TRUCKS? What about us?
(http://www.mrtruck.net/pr1_063005.jpg)
HA! HA! HA! You were kidding right? Ask your GM, Ford, or Chrysler Truck dealer to show you a cab and chassis, then go find the Lay's Chip guy or the UPS man to see what your riding in. As Mike said, it's all in a slick campaign from the builders.OCKLAWAHA
That would be awesome if they extended their hours. I'd sooo love to leave my car at home in riverside, ditch the expensive monthly parking garage and take the trolley to work.
The only weakness in the route coverage I can forsee is for those of us who work in the north end of downtown, (Jea, fccj etc). 6 blocks is a good hike when you're coming back from lunch on a full stomach!
Doesn't the "trolley" stop at a nearby skyway station? Just a quick transfer should be possible.
I believe so , but it's probably quicker just to walk the 6 blocks. I’m just being nostalgic and wishing I still worked in the Modis building, it practically comes to their front door!
I spoke to a restaurant owner in the Landing, and he says business has trippled since the trolley started. See what happens when you connect the correct areas? Too bad there was no foresight to have the skyway stop right inside the Landing, and another stop in 5 points.
Imagine the ridership that a real light rail or trolley line would bring.
It hurts to imagine. I would assume we and JTA would be seeing the success that Charlotte and Houston are currently experiencing with their new starter light rail lines. Plus, City Hall would be enjoying the good amount of economic activity attracted along the path of the shiny new trains.
Quote from: Dapperdan on May 09, 2008, 10:47:39 AM
I spoke to a restaurant owner in the Landing, and he says business has trippled since the trolley started. See what happens when you connect the correct areas? Too bad there was no foresight to have the skyway stop right inside the Landing, and another stop in 5 points.
I don't think the Skyway stop at the landing is as much of an issue - it's a block away. The issue is the stops along riverside avenue - those people are isolated over there.
There's another large downtown destination that's also isolated.......Baptist Medical Center. JTA would be smart to revisit the Southbank BRT proposal and link into Baptist Medical, as opposed to paralleling the Skyway down Riverplace Blvd.
I'd rather them provide that link with a free "trolley" route versus BRT.
I just gave the trolley a trial run on my lunch break to meet up with a friend for lunch and then walk home to change, it's insanely packed on there, and for good reason. It actually stops as places I want to go. It dropped me off right in front of Johnny's across from fidelity. They even had a regular JTA bus for the overflow on the route because so many people are using it.
If they ran this to cover normal business hours I seriously doubt i'd ever take my car to work, but the real test will be once the newness of it all wears off.
The only downside of course, is that it does take it's time to get where it's going. So if your pressed for time on your lunch break, you might be cutting it close.
Quote from: Jason on May 09, 2008, 01:45:46 PM
I'd rather them provide that link with a free "trolley" route versus BRT.
I'd just rather not have several modes of mass transit (ex. BRT and the Skyway) duplicating and competing for riders with each other, while major downtown destinations, like Baptist, continue to be left off the beaten path.
I believe it has already improved parking in five points and put more pedestrians on the sidewalks. We ate at Donna Maria's outside today and watched all the pretty 20 year olds and business people going up and down the sidewalks. It didn't even seem like Jacksonville it was very vibrant, active and happening. I think they have "made five points a scene."
Quote from: JeffreyS on May 09, 2008, 02:46:14 PM
I believe it has already improved parking in five points and put more pedestrians on the sidewalks. We ate at Donna Maria's outside today and watched all the pretty 20 year olds and business people going up and down the sidewalks. It didn't even seem like Jacksonville it was very vibrant, active and happening. I think they have "made five points a scene."
Exactly! There was a certain kind of energy in the air.
Now let's just see how many people ride it when it goes up to a whopping 50 cents!
The problem with serving Baptist Medical would seem to be the same as what sunk JTA's San Marco shuttle bus a few years ago - the FECRR that pretty much puts BMC on an island. And there are always a couple trains during lunch hour - really screws up keeping a bus on schedule.
The solution would have to come in the form of a grade separated crossing. Baptist, Nemours, Aetna, etc. are too large to ignore for any transit system being set up to help serve the Southbank. So this is where I'd say its good to cut back on waste elsewhere (like building BRT parallel to the CSX A line) and spend a little more on a grade separated crossing that could help give better access to Baptist and San Marco, for both BRT and regular vehicular traffic.
I have walked from BMC to the skyway a few times. A short easy walk but I haven't ever been caught by a train.
Quote from: thelakelander on May 10, 2008, 08:01:29 AM
The solution would have to come in the form of a grade separated crossing. Baptist, Nemours, Aetna, etc. are too large to ignore for any transit system being set up to help serve the Southbank. So this is where I'd say its good to cut back on waste elsewhere (like building BRT parallel to the CSX A line) and spend a little more on a grade separated crossing that could help give better access to Baptist and San Marco, for both BRT and regular vehicular traffic.
Baptist could contribute to the cause as that college paid millions to have the train go to it's campus. Wait, wouldn't you just walk to the Skyway and then take the skyway 1 stop then jump on the trolly, or a bus to Riverside? Or is that just too much for all those "tree hugging" SUV lovers terrorist supporters?
Quote from: thelakelander on May 10, 2008, 08:01:29 AM
The solution would have to come in the form of a grade separated crossing. Baptist, Nemours, Aetna, etc. are too large to ignore for any transit system being set up to help serve the Southbank. So this is where I'd say its good to cut back on waste elsewhere (like building BRT parallel to the CSX A line) and spend a little more on a grade separated crossing that could help give better access to Baptist and San Marco, for both BRT and regular vehicular traffic.
Hmmm ... interesting engineering problem. A tunnel taking Prudential Drive under the FEC was proposed a long time ago - but being so close to the river, wetness is an issue. Taking Prudential Drive over is complicated by the existing Acosta Bridge overpass. The only "business" that would have access problems from either a tunnel or overpass is the MPO, and they could move.
Do we know if the JTA is looking at a similar plan for San Marco maybe based on how successful the Riverside Trolley turns out to be. It is a very similar route major employers to popular dinning and shopping area. It would also link San Marco square with the skyway.
They tried a San Marco shuttle a year or two ago, and it did poorly. That FEC train would stop the bus on San Marco and on Hendricks. Bus couldn't keep schedule, people were late getting back from lunch, didn't ride anymore. Service pulled.
Quote from: Webini on May 05, 2008, 05:07:17 PM
I work on Riverside at Fidelity and I for one am so glad this trolly is operational. Going to lunch from Fidelity to downtown is a PAIN. To be able to hop on the trolley without dealing with 5 Points' traffic or downtown's parking was great!
Don't you still have to sit in the 5 points traffic while on that trolley?
Quote from: tufsu1 on May 06, 2008, 03:32:28 PM
also, nobody really cares what the trolleys really are...other than Ock!
I'm not so sure about that one. That thing is a bus.
I hope the community enjoys riding that thing. It would be better off if they would just extend the right of way Skyway down to the corner of Park and Post across the street from that church, but JTA wants to keep buying gas. :-[.
The ways of the turtle rules supreme.........
Quote from: Dapperdan on May 09, 2008, 10:47:39 AM
I spoke to a restaurant owner in the Landing, and he says business has trippled since the trolley started. See what happens when you connect the correct areas? Too bad there was no foresight to have the skyway stop right inside the Landing, and another stop in 5 points.
You can get to the landing from Central Station. Its a 3 min walk. I do agree with the Skyway being near 5 points though.
Quote from: Coolyfett on May 11, 2008, 12:36:26 AM
Quote from: tufsu1 on May 06, 2008, 03:32:28 PM
also, nobody really cares what the trolleys really are...other than Ock!
I'm not so sure about that one. That thing is a bus.
I hope the community enjoys riding that thing. It would be better off if they would just extend the right of way Skyway down to the corner of Park and Post across the street from that church, but JTA wants to keep buying gas. :-[.
The ways of the turtle rules supreme.........
the point of my argument is that people will still ride...as the # are showing....
the concern with real trolleys in the short-term is that they are nothing more than a tourist attraction...take what's happening in Tampa as an example....they are struggling for riders (cost is part of the problem) and the system is not considered a commuter alternative.
Sure, a real trolley on set tracks could encourage economic development in the long-pterm that would then yield more riders....but you have to start somewhere.
Quotethe concern with real trolleys in the short-term is that they are nothing more than a tourist attraction...take what's happening in Tampa as an example....they are struggling for riders (cost is part of the problem) and the system is not considered a commuter alternative.
Sorry to bust the bubble but TAMPA and JACKSONVILLE have very different expectations from their Trolleys:
Jacksonville's annual target goal is just over 10,000 riders a year on the Riverside "PCT Trolley". There is no expected development as a direct result of the "Trolley"...
Tampa is having some trouble meeting the ridership goal of 500,000 per year. Year one saw "ONLY" 435,000 passengers and last year was at a lowly 440,000. So they are working on a new station sponsorship program to extend the grant for operations, and during off hours only 2 cars will run, 4 cars will continue to run at the peak hours. Line extension will make the trourist ride part of the HART metro transit system. Due to the fixed guideway of the Trolley, Tampa has over 1.1 BILLION dollars in new development as a direct result of the trolley.
The bus and highway industry are having a field day with "Tampa Fails", one would think weeds were growing in the streets. I wish we could FAIL as well as they have!
New Station sponsors
New Line extension
Massive Development
DIOS MIO!Ocklawaha
so Ock...why has ridership on the Tampa line not increased over the 5+ years its been open...especially sxince it paralells a whole bunch of new development...could it be that it caters almost soley to tourists?
Speaking of the new development, there is a strong argument that it was not spurred by the streetcar...just good planning that promotoed development in a long underutilized area near the water and downtown...and that the streetcar was a component of thatg good planning
I fall in the camp of those that believe the Tampa streetcar was a major element in attracting development in the Channel District. It also does not hurt that the city planned a series of public backed attractions and destinations along the route (ex. convention center, Channelside, Cruise Port, Aquarium, etc.). However, it will remain a tourist train as long as it is not extended into the core of downtown or to nearby areas with high residential density, such as Hyde Park, Tampa Heights or University of Tampa.
Locally, if Jax were to build a real streetcar system, if it does not connect downtown with existing residential neighborhoods, it would most likely become a tourist train (although still development encouraging) as well.
Quoteso Ock...why has ridership on the Tampa line not increased over the 5+ years its been open...especially sxince it paralells a whole bunch of new development...could it be that it caters almost soley to tourists?
Speaking of the new development, there is a strong argument that it was not spurred by the streetcar...
Interesting comments my friend. The ridership HAS increased from 430,000 to the 440,000, it's just not quite what they thought. Tampa is almost unique in this as the other 50+ cities to rebuild streetcars have blown their ridership projections out of the water. I think the whole project suffers from Florida's foot dragging-too little-too late mental picture of transit. They really didn't plan this as anything but a tiny mile of "San Francisco" in Ybor City for the Mickey Mouse crowd. Bad Idea. Yet this tiny infant tourist ride with 4 trolleys operating is looking for 44 times our Riverside "PCT Trolley" ridership. Moreover they are approaching the 500,000 mark and have sponsors to assure the future and extend it into the City so it will become a major Transit link. One of the things they did RIGHT from the start is build it so the heritage trolleys and the modern LRV or Modern Streetcars could all use the same line. To do this cost them some pocket change, but the result is they have the core of regional Light Rail already in place in the tourist area. Bottom line, this mighty midget will carry 1/20Th the annual passengers of the entire JTA systems...all of them combined.
As for development, simply ask the developers, they'll tell you straight up that they go where trolleys are going. Ask in Portland, San Diego, Memphis, Charlotte, Houston, Dallas... Hell, even ask in Tacoma and El Reno Oklahoma, where either system is about 1 mile length... Tacoma is buried in new construction and El Reno went from Prairie ghost to bustling tourist town.
The plan we have laid out for Jacksonville will compliment the Skyway, it will feed and feed from the Skyway, and the buses. It could retire many of the downtown bus routes. It would eventually tie the Stadium with the Union Station/Prime Osbourne Transportation Center...as well as...St. Vincents with University Hospital. Park and King, 5-Points, Water Street, Landing, Omni, Hyatt, Newnan, Arena, Stadium, Baseball Grounds, City Hall, Metropolitan Lofts., Veterans Administration Clinic, Main Street Springfield. In the words of Galaxy Quest, I'll wager any of you that the return of Jacksonville Traction will be like pouring gasoline on a flame!
Welcome Aboard, WELCOME!Ocklawaha
Sorry for the late reply, but I was on I-95 wishing there were a train to take me to the places I had to go this weekend!!
Well, don't you think now that gas has gone through the roof that more people will be riding? Surely, and I don't mean to call you Sherly, there is proof that more people are riding mass trans because of the high price of fuel.
(http://static.flickr.com/2367/2233568563_789a1c86d6.jpg)
Always on the wrong flight anyway!
(http://static.flickr.com/168/367576986_d2c8d685b6.jpg)
Ever get that "sick" feeling when you fly?
Surely you know that I wouldn't have driven at all had there been a train. I understand about the price of gas but don't call me shirley. In fact I could have flown if I wasn't watching a gladiator movie in a locker room with my pal's Captain Over, Clarence, and Roger Murdock. Normally Ted Striker drops in on us and we have to sit through his sad story of George Zip, Ted has a drinking problem and the more he drinks the more he talks about winning one for the zipper.
Yes Gatorback, those were the days!
Ocklawaha
Quote from: tufsu1 on May 11, 2008, 09:32:11 AM
Quote from: Coolyfett on May 11, 2008, 12:36:26 AM
Quote from: tufsu1 on May 06, 2008, 03:32:28 PM
also, nobody really cares what the trolleys really are...other than Ock!
I'm not so sure about that one. That thing is a bus.
I hope the community enjoys riding that thing. It would be better off if they would just extend the right of way Skyway down to the corner of Park and Post across the street from that church, but JTA wants to keep buying gas. :-[.
The ways of the turtle rules supreme.........
the point of my argument is that people will still ride...as the # are showing....
I hope they do man. Really I hope the people are riding it. The numbers are showing right now, which is good. I personally feel JTA could have made a better choice connecting 5 Points to downtown. This trolley/bus just doesn't say long term to me. Some people want the best RIGHT NOW. I commend you for your patience.
Coolyfett
I took the Trolley everyday last week and traffic was never an issue. But, parking was the real issue, not the traffic.
Quote• With the 50 cent fee in place for almost two weeks now, ridership for the Riverside Trolley is down, said Jacksonville Transit Authority’s Director of External Affairs Mike Miller. “We expected the drop, but ridership is still much, much better than we projected.†Following the opening two-week free rides that averaged 637 riders a day, the first week of paid ridership dipped to an average of 407 riders a day. Miller attributes that to the fees and the holiday weekend, but said initial JTA projections were only 120 riders a day.
http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/citynotes.php
I haven't ridden the trolley yet...haven't found myself down that way in order to use it as of late.
I have a question about Ock's sign. I mean, he left off the best seating in row 69, wtf? ;-)
Quote from: thelakelander on June 02, 2008, 03:33:07 PM
Quote• With the 50 cent fee in place for almost two weeks now, ridership for the Riverside Trolley is down, said Jacksonville Transit Authority’s Director of External Affairs Mike Miller. “We expected the drop, but ridership is still much, much better than we projected.” Following the opening two-week free rides that averaged 637 riders a day, the first week of paid ridership dipped to an average of 407 riders a day. Miller attributes that to the fees and the holiday weekend, but said initial JTA projections were only 120 riders a day.
http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/citynotes.php
Hmmm...
Who would have thunk it? 407,000 riders a year and falling? Gee at this rate, they only need to find 307,000 more riders to catch the Skyway @3,000 per day and 261 business days M/L a year. Wonder which one will fail first? The FAKE PCT TROLLEY or the MONORAIL TO NOWHERE!
Ocklawaha
Ocklawaha: Come on man. Don't you have faith in the JTA to cook better then that? ROFL