http://www.actionnewsjax.com/content/topstories/story/Aquarium-could-be-coming-to-Jacksonville/ZDoGFJgnNkuEDa9HYsz-BQ.cspx
What are the chances this will get done?
Good luck. However, if I had to place odds on it....
(http://www.bitojava.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/snowball-in-hell-65344_display_image-207x300.jpg)
^Thats funny. Visit Jacksonville!
Would be nice, we'll see.
LOL Lake
Pessimistic :(
So for 1/3rd the cost of the Georgia Aquarium's construction we'll have an aquarium that will outdraw the zoo, make downtown come alive again, and not require a dime of taxpayer money?
(http://i.imgur.com/HSLuX.gif)
How about the city just drops all of the anti-food truck nonsense and we'll call it even.
^Now we're talking. Still have an open contest if anyone can take a picture of the new Waterways signage that was never before Waterways and I will treat you to Chopstick Charley's and we will use Uber. Here is a clue. it's next to our St. Johns River our American Heritage River a FEDERAL Initiative in our new highly restricted (Food Truck, Kayak) DIA zone. PS. Also have a $15,000,000 Courthouse Pier as one Jacksonville Waterways Commission member put it when it was discovered At the 3/12/14 Jacksonville Waterways Commission meeting on a presentation regarding the Southbank River Walk Construction and Programming that we aren't replacing all of it on the Southbank.
Quote from: thelakelander on March 13, 2014, 09:48:09 PM
Good luck. However, if I had to place odds on it....
(http://www.bitojava.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/snowball-in-hell-65344_display_image-207x300.jpg)
What do you mean???
With an aquarium at one end and the Mooneyhan Studios at the other, downtown will be amazing.
^^(http://s3.amazonaws.com/br-cdn/temp_images/2014/01/26/Westrbook.gif?1390701201)
(http://static.fjcdn.com/gifs/Michael+Jordan_1c01ea_5042625.gif)
Uh oh!!! Sounds like an epic battle for the shipyard property! The space needle vs the aquarium.... Good thing the city didn't break up the large parcel and allow intuition to buy a small portion. these projects are totally going to require the whole land area and definitely get built. [/sarcasm]
Quote from: Captain Zissou on March 14, 2014, 09:19:10 AM
Uh oh!!! Sounds like an epic battle for the shipyard property! The space needle vs the aquarium.... Good thing the city didn't break up the large parcel and allow intuition to buy a small portion. these projects are totally going to require the whole land area and definitely get built. [/sarcasm]
Would it be possible to build a space needle with a rotating aquarium at the top?
My favorite reason for building an aquarium is we don' t have a place where families can come to look at fish and other aquatic wildlife in north florida....
<_<....................>_>
...because apparently, its just too hard to look out into the ocean or down into the St. Johns River to see them.
Quote from: copperfiend on March 14, 2014, 09:41:17 AM
Quote from: Captain Zissou on March 14, 2014, 09:19:10 AM
Uh oh!!! Sounds like an epic battle for the shipyard property! The space needle vs the aquarium.... Good thing the city didn't break up the large parcel and allow intuition to buy a small portion. these projects are totally going to require the whole land area and definitely get built. [/sarcasm]
Would it be possible to build a space needle with a rotating aquarium at the top?
As long as they leave enough room for the world's largest climbing wall, built in the shape of the letters J-A-X.
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php?topic=19167.0
I love how the article always starts... If the organization " " gets their way!
Quote from: urban_Savvy on March 14, 2014, 09:59:12 AM
My favorite reason for building an aquarium is we don' t have a place where families can come to look at fish and other aquatic wildlife in north florida....
<_<....................>_>
...because apparently, its just too hard to look out into the ocean or down into the St. Johns River to see them.
I dont think no one can see anything in the St Johns beyond the sluge ;D
Quote from: copperfiend on March 14, 2014, 09:41:17 AM
Quote from: Captain Zissou on March 14, 2014, 09:19:10 AM
Uh oh!!! Sounds like an epic battle for the shipyard property! The space needle vs the aquarium.... Good thing the city didn't break up the large parcel and allow intuition to buy a small portion. these projects are totally going to require the whole land area and definitely get built. [/sarcasm]
Would it be possible to build a space needle with a rotating aquarium at the top?
A still better idea: a space needle with a rotating aquarium and an IKEA at the base. That would be the death knell for Orlando. It might need to be a Nordstrom instead of an Ikea, to get the mayor on board.
Quote from: urban_Savvy on March 14, 2014, 09:59:12 AM
My favorite reason for building an aquarium is we don' t have a place where families can come to look at fish and other aquatic wildlife in north florida....
<_<....................>_>
...because apparently, its just too hard to look out into the ocean or down into the St. Johns River to see them.
I was at the beach one day last summer when a manta ray got pretty close to the shore, as close I remember seeing before. I thought it was awesome. But based on the reactions I saw, you'd think that Jaws himself was making a beeline for the shallow end. Alot of people love nature...when it's behind glass.
Quote from: Rynjny on March 13, 2014, 09:38:12 PM
http://www.actionnewsjax.com/content/topstories/story/Aquarium-could-be-coming-to-Jacksonville/ZDoGFJgnNkuEDa9HYsz-BQ.cspx
What are the chances this will get done?
Sadly, probably about the same as Jacksonville getting any kind of commuter rail/light rail/streetcar/skyway expansion project completed.
Quotestill better idea: a space needle with a rotating aquarium and an IKEA at the base. That would be the death knell for Orlando. It might need to be a Nordstrom instead of an Ikea, to get the mayor on board.
Will all of our NBA players live there too?
Hey wait a minute, you guys left out the 6 lane BRT transit mall through downtown and the aerial cable cars over the river!
I would be a hoot to have our resident rendering artist Jason, collect all of these and toss them in a single image.
Meanwhile in San Francisco (where they have completed fixed transit) the new Transbay Terminal is well underway along with the 31 new building's in the SoMa!
PULL YOUR HEAD OUT JACKSONVILLE!
If I were to compile all of the failed proposals into one model this city would look like Manhattan!! :D
just wait...next up is the International Swimming Hall of Fame!
Maybe they could combine the Aquarium shark tank with the Swimming Hall of Fame lap pool.
Quote from: Charles Hunter on March 20, 2014, 04:14:26 PM
Maybe they could combine the Aquarium shark tank with the Swimming Hall of Fame lap pool.
(http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lpr7hpptv61qjer5so1_400.jpg)
The Downtown Aquarium in Denver was built in '99 for $93 million and it's 107,000sf... Not sure how these guys plan on building a 150,000sf facility for $105 million with todays construction costs. Maybe they'll build using recyclable materials?
Quote from: KuroiKetsunoHana on March 20, 2014, 05:02:31 PM
Quote from: Charles Hunter on March 20, 2014, 04:14:26 PM
Maybe they could combine the Aquarium shark tank with the Swimming Hall of Fame lap pool.
(http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lpr7hpptv61qjer5so1_400.jpg)
Haha, Animaniacs!!!
http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2014/04/14/aquajax-evaluating-two-downtown-jacksonville-sites.html
Guess there's some steam to this project.
Quote from: Rynjny on April 14, 2014, 03:28:24 PM
http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2014/04/14/aquajax-evaluating-two-downtown-jacksonville-sites.html
Guess there's some steam to this project.
That's a really neat idea, partnering with the Jacksonville Zoo and having a boat that takes visitors from the zoo to the aquarium and vice versa. You're right, it sounds like there might be a little more steam to this project than originally thought. I'd love to see it.
http://www.wokv.com/news/news/local/aquajax-pushes-world-class-aquarium-downtown-jax/nfhz5/
In this article it said the financial backing is secured...so looking good??
Quote from: Rynjny on April 25, 2014, 10:10:49 PM
http://www.wokv.com/news/news/local/aquajax-pushes-world-class-aquarium-downtown-jax/nfhz5/
In this article it said the financial backing is secured...so looking good??
Nice update on the effort to bring an aquarium to Jax. It also looks as if St. Augustine is working on one as well.
After spending the past 3 days in Chatanooga, I cant begin to express how much i would caution bringing an aquarium to Metro Park. Chatanooga's aquarium is not as impressive as the surrounding context that integrates into downtown and the waterfront. It's not isolated, but rather is surrounded by restaurants, stores, condos, an impressive waterfront green space and even a movie theater. There is a 'there' there.
Putting an aquarium at an isolated location like Metro Park would do very little for downtown.
Quote from: fieldafm on April 25, 2014, 10:41:54 PM
After spending the past 3 days in Chatanooga, I cant begin to express how much i would caution bringing an aquarium to Metro Park. Chatanooga's aquarium is not as impressive as the surrounding context that integrates into downtown and the waterfront. It's not isolated, but rather is surrounded by restaurants, stores, condos, an impressive waterfront green space and even a movie theater. There is a 'there' there.
Putting an aquarium at an isolated location like Metro Park would do very little for downtown.
I totally agree. Far too often a very small group of people begin projects solely based on their own personal wants. I mean realistically they have likely gained the feedback of maybe... 200 people that certainly does not justify pushing forward your plans for something that requires funding far far beyond what was won at one spark. I mean their idea is good, but it just is not something that I personally view as being a big part of revitalizing downtown. I am just curious what is to become of the monies they won. Most waterfront property will set you back 10-20 million just for the land. I do not even want to figure the cost of infrastructure and other stuff. Good mindset just not a good idea for right now.
I agree with Field....and I have lots of pictures to illustrate this.
Actually the Chattanooga Aquarium preceded and provided a catalyst for the surrounding development.
In this city, we have a 'jaded factor' that rivals some big cities. I'm putting my personally 'eh-ism' for aquariums aside, and I'm trying to look at it from a positive mindset, but I just don't see it; Even if it was 'integrated with DT'. IMO it would be much better as a permanent attraction at the zoo, and it would spike up the attendance there.
There are plenty of 'lack of connectivity' buildings in dense urban areas, but preferably I wouldn't want them on a thin strip, like say a riverfront. With the shipyards area currently undeveloped right now, IMO the major disconnects from the core to Met Park are the Jail/JSO, Maxwell House, and the pond & some of EverBank Field's parking (not saying that anything should be removed). The common misconception is to blame everything on the Hart Bridge overpasses; How 'unaesthetic' they might be to some, they really don't 'interfere' with much of anything, like say a Chicago elevated train overpass would.
Maybe I'm gonna have to start an amusement park cause on next year's One Spark. It drive me crazy that no one is pushing for it, something that's more realistic than a DT aquarium IMO. If one was to put Fun Spot America (Orlando) in Jax, that would equal an instant success!! Hell, it probably would draw even more here, with so much going on in other larger O-Town parks.
Quote from: SunKing on April 26, 2014, 08:07:00 AM
Actually the Chattanooga Aquarium preceded and provided a catalyst for the surrounding development.
The conversion of the Walnut Street Bridge into one of the longest pedestrian bridges in the county preceded the aquarium. It's pretty inaccurate to claim that the Tennessee Aquarium was the one trick pony that turned Chattanooga around. The things they did were coordinated and a lot more comprehensive.
One thing that has my BS detector going off on the aquarium idea is the phrase "world class" keeps being thrown about. When I think "world class aquarium" I'm thinking the Georgia Aquarium, Monterey Bay, Shedd, etc. All of those cost $200 million or more in 2014 dollars.
The numbers being thrown about make it sound like it'll be a nice aquarium. But one that will act as a magnet to tourists on their way to Orlando? Not really.
Why are you guys so oppose to this?? I mean there's no public money being used and I think this will be good for the city.
Quote from: Rynjny on April 26, 2014, 12:15:17 PM
Why are you guys so oppose to this?? I mean there's no public money being used and I think this will be good for the city.
I'm not opposed to it. If it is really built without public money I'll sign up for a membership Day 1. I'm just skeptical of the more grandiose claims.
Quote from: Rynjny on April 26, 2014, 12:15:17 PM
Why are you guys so oppose to this?? I mean there's no public money being used and I think this will be good for the city.
it's not so much opposition as it is realism. The group participated in one spark which has a requirement that says you have to have assets and income under a certain dollar amount. $1,000,000 I believe it is. If they had the private money and loans for this project then we would not have even seen them at one spark, because a bank or investor would have funded it no issues attached. I do think its a fantastic idea, but things of that magnitude take far more than a few like minds running around downtown trying to convince people it's a good idea. If it was something that investors thought would be worth the price they would have already jumped all over it. Needless to say I support the idea, but I believe it may be being spearheaded by ambition rather than capital.
I like the caddy shack idea better. That would be cool to have downtown or Springfield. Plus it seem like something Orlando, Tampa & Miami would not compete with. I just think many others have beaten Jax to the punch.
Quote from: Rynjny on April 26, 2014, 12:15:17 PM
Why are you guys so oppose to this?? I mean there's no public money being used and I think this will be good for the city.
I will believe it when I see it.
Taking this one with a huge grain of salt.
Not a fan of the aquarium idea, but for devils advocate sake (in contradiction to the Chattanooga talk): Charleston's terribly small and insignificant aquarium draws good sized crowds and isn't integrated in the HD at all.
Quote from: I-10east on April 26, 2014, 09:48:03 AM
In this city, we have a 'jaded factor' that rivals some big cities. I'm putting my personally 'eh-ism' for aquariums aside, and I'm trying to look at it from a positive mindset, but I just don't see it; Even if it was 'integrated with DT'. IMO it would be much better as a permanent attraction at the zoo, and it would spike up the attendance there.
There are plenty of 'lack of connectivity' buildings in dense urban areas, but preferably I wouldn't want them on a thin strip, like say a riverfront. With the shipyards area currently undeveloped right now, IMO the major disconnects from the core to Met Park are the Jail/JSO, Maxwell House, and the pond & some of EverBank Field's parking (not saying that anything should be removed). The common misconception is to blame everything on the Hart Bridge overpasses; How 'unaesthetic' they might be to some, they really don't 'interfere' with much of anything, like say a Chicago elevated train overpass would.
Maybe I'm gonna have to start an amusement park cause on next year's One Spark. It drive me crazy that no one is pushing for it, something that's more realistic than a DT aquarium IMO. If one was to put Fun Spot America (Orlando) in Jax, that would equal an instant success!! Hell, it probably would draw even more here, with so much going on in other larger O-Town parks.
I-10 makes a valid point in my view. I know the desire to plot out and plan what some feel will make downtown successful is strong in many who post here and I totally get that. The site is focused on the core and planning in many ways. The reality is however that there will be ideas that come down the pike that don't fit the model many have imagined. If someone has the funding to build an aquarium in Jacksonville, they should have at it. Whether or not it fits some desires for the core, it would be a great attraction for Jacksonville and add another interesting venue of things to do here. It's another idea, bigger than others and like others we can believe it when it happens. If it does happen, I will be happy for it. If it happens to integrate in a way that also boosters downtown, that will be a sizable bonus. Remember some folks were fixed in the idea that a certain pizza restaurant was going to ruin the shops of Avondale viciously criticized that endeavor and made life miserable for that developer who was investing in Jacksonville. It didn't of course and in the end proved to be a positive addition. A multi-million dollar investment in our city for an aquarium is a good thing to my eyes and falls right in line with the overall idea of investment and growth bringing jobs and people to our city as well as adding to the list of great things to do in Jacksonville.
Hmm. I consider Charleston's to be very integrated. I consider everything south of US 17 to be quite walkable and a part of the HD. I've personally walked just about all of, residential streets and all, on almost every trip. I'd also argue that Charleston has a captive and established audience. That's quite different from sticking something a mile from the core by itself and expecting it to deliver world class change. With that said, I'm not opposed to private money building an aquarium. I just think some of the tales being to to sell the idea are just that....tales.
Quote from: thelakelander on April 26, 2014, 02:29:46 PM
Hmm. I consider Charleston's to be very integrated. I consider everything south of US 17 to be quite walkable and a part of the HD. I've personally walked just about all of, residential streets and all, on almost every trip. I'd also argue that Charleston has a captive and established audience. That's quite different from sticking something a mile from the core by itself and expecting it to deliver world class change. With that said, I'm not opposed to private money building an aquarium. I just think some of the tales being to to sell the idea are just that....tales.
The telling of tales is part of the effort to have any idea gain traction. We see many projects embellished in the very same manner. I remember the tales told about the impact of a Superbowl claiming it would drive interest and growth in downtown or how a round-a-bout on Laura street would drive enterprise and activity. Some pretty tall tales right there. lol
I wish the wealthy people here in Jacksonville would donate $500 million to build one downtown. I say $500 because it cost $250 million to build Atlanta back in 2004 and the dollar doesn't go as far now. Oh and get the Baptist Church or who ever to donate the land. If Coca-Cola can donate land so can a land owner here. Hmm, better yet tear down the Landing and build it there. A true Jewel at the end of Laura street but you'd still need parking. (I wish there was a sarcasm font).
Seriously, with a river and ocean Jacksonville should be a destination city in Florida. To make the city core a destination area for Jacksonville we need a renovated Jacksonville Landing, parking, a magnificent aquarium, parking, a state of the art mind blowingly large convention center, parking, and the Stadium. That stretch along the river could be a potential gold mine if managed properly. And you can't be rinky-dinky about any of it, otherwise it will fail.
Develop that area and the new hotels will come, the restaurants, the shops, and most important the people. Build it right and they will come.
Personally I think simply the fact that it would get tourists and locals to visit the river, which by itself is an interesting attraction, is enough to make it worthwhile. I remember the crowds who visited the Southbank Riverwalk when it was new, and it was just a walkway. Our river is gorgeous.
Beyond that, if it maintains strong educational ties and works in conjunction with the zoo and the local Universities it will create a long-term following and a strong local presence. Tourist traffic will be gravy on top of that.
Sounds like a winner as long as the public monetary support is relatively small.
Quote from: thelakelander on April 26, 2014, 10:26:34 AM
Quote from: SunKing on April 26, 2014, 08:07:00 AM
Actually the Chattanooga Aquarium preceded and provided a catalyst for the surrounding development.
The conversion of the Walnut Street Bridge into one of the longest pedestrian bridges in the county preceded the aquarium. It's pretty inaccurate to claim that the Tennessee Aquarium was the one trick pony that turned Chattanooga around. The things they did were coordinated and a lot more comprehensive.
We heard from a lot of city leaders and civic advocates here in the Scenic City and it is abundantly clear they never had a conversation about an aquarium in isolation. In fact, everything they did was put into a larger context.
And Lake is right, according to leaders here.. the pedestrian bridge preceded the aquarium.
I was stuck in the Toronto airport a few years ago and struck up a conversation with a guy next to me that was the project manager of Ripley's Aquarium projects. They have built them in Gatlinburg, Myrtle Beach, and recently finished the one in Toronto. He told me Ripley's knows the "Believe it or Not" aspect of their business is dated and that the internet hurts it's credibility/interest level. So they are trying to diversify into other areas. They are trying to get into the for-profit aquarium business and testing the market. We talked pretty extensively about Jax as an option and he said they are open to exploring anything.
So here is the challenge to Aqua Jax. Let's start a dialogue with Ripley's and see how strong the financial viability of creating one is. Hit me up with a private message or contact one of the mods for my email address.
Quote from: CityLife on April 26, 2014, 05:08:27 PM
I was stuck in the Toronto airport a few years ago and struck up a conversation with a guy next to me that was the project manager of Ripley's Aquarium projects. They have built them in Gatlinburg, Myrtle Beach, and recently finished the one in Toronto. He told me Ripley's knows the "Believe it or Not" aspect of their business is dated and that the internet hurts it's credibility/interest level. So they are trying to diversify into other areas. They are trying to get into the for-profit aquarium business and testing the market. We talked pretty extensively about Jax as an option and he said they are open to exploring anything.
So here is the challenge to Aqua Jax. Let's start a dialogue with Ripley's and see how strong the financial viability of creating one is. Hit me up with a private message or contact one of the mods for my email address.
You may want to hit them up with a message CL. Sounds like you have some insights they may be interested in. :)
Stepping back a bit my mind wonders what true intrinsic value an aquarium would bring to the city, it's built environment and everyone living here. I see a city with concentrations of wealth and amenities in pockets while many live in unsafe, dirty, ugly neighborhoods. I see a city struggling to protect its natural areas and prey to urban sprawl and constant ugly destructive development. I see a city that is full of natural beauty everywhere but with limited access to the river, and waterways especially in the urban areas. Mayor Brown, along with others, have grandiose ideas of how to "fix" and "better" the city without actually fixing or improving these limitations. How ironic and sad in my view. Go see how many live, witness the pollution, the decaying areas of Jacksonville and then really ask yourself, will an aquarium built for tourists really help or benefit the common good? I don't think so.
Quote from: cindy394 on April 26, 2014, 05:34:02 PM
Stepping back a bit my mind wonders what true intrinsic value an aquarium would bring to the city, it's built environment and everyone living here. I see a city with concentrations of wealth and amenities in pockets while many live in unsafe, dirty, ugly neighborhoods. I see a city struggling to protect its natural areas and prey to urban sprawl and constant ugly destructive development. I see a city that is full of natural beauty everywhere but with limited access to the river, and waterways especially in the urban areas. Mayor Brown, along with others, have grandiose ideas of how to "fix" and "better" the city without actually fixing or improving these limitations. How ironic and sad in my view. Go see how many live, witness the pollution, the decaying areas of Jacksonville and then really ask yourself, will an aquarium built for tourists really help or benefit the common good? I don't think so.
Your observations are those that many have shared with regard to our city. If you check the forum out you will see most of the things you mention have been the focus of many ongoing discussions. To the point of an aquarium, any large scale investment that brings jobs and a new entertainment venue to our city is in the end is a good thing.
IrvAdams. Are you for sure or is it a hope that tourist will flock downtown and to the river, simply to visit an isolated aquarium? Even though literally half of the South's major cities have aquariums, you'll be hard pressed to find them isolated. Like convention centers, they work best when they're a part of several complementing uses feeding each other within a compact pedestrian scale setting.
Quote from: thelakelander on April 26, 2014, 11:27:20 PM
IrvAdams. Are you for sure or is it a hope that tourist will flock downtown and to the river, simply to visit an isolated aquarium? Even though literally half of the South's major cities have aquariums, you'll be hard pressed to find them isolated. Like convention centers, they work best when they're a part of several complementing uses feeding each other within a compact pedestrian scale setting.
+1 I comletely agree with that. I don't like the hints people are making towards it possibly being put in metro park
Quote from: thelakelander on April 26, 2014, 11:27:20 PM
IrvAdams. Are you for sure or is it a hope that tourist will flock downtown and to the river, simply to visit an isolated aquarium? Even though literally half of the South's major cities have aquariums, you'll be hard pressed to find them isolated. Like convention centers, they work best when they're a part of several complementing uses feeding each other within a compact pedestrian scale setting.
Could not agree more. And it seems like that connectivity (or lack thereof) has been one of this city's biggest issues for years.
I look at the Baseball Grounds and the Arena. They are isolated from downtown, so there is little to no atmosphere for major events at either venue. If you are going there and want to make a night of it, you get in your car and drive to a restaurant, then you get back in your car and drive to the arena. When the event is over, you just walk back to your car and leave.
Realistically where would these venues have been built more in the core? To do so probably would have required demolishing even more of what was left of the dwindling older buildings.
I am sure, with all the empty lots we have, it could have been done.
I was in Indianapolis recently and was just impressed the way that the Pacers arena is integrated into the neighborhood. Instead of what we have here, which are facilities plopped next to a giant parking lot.
^Not really, and additionally, the city would have had to buy a bunch of property it didn't own. And then been stuck with the prospect of an old baseball park and Coliseum and nothing to do with them. The solution for the sports complex is more development in the area (not that an aquarium nearby is a good idea necessarily).
^^agree. In most cities the buildings still standing around the arena would have been snapped up and already be bars and restaraunts. As Shad stated those with the money in Jax have no vision and mojo. Then with the shipyards redevelopment it would be a happening place and then more reason to connect it downtown with trolleys, etc similar to the beaches trolley.
Quote from: fieldafm on April 26, 2014, 04:40:37 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on April 26, 2014, 10:26:34 AM
Quote from: SunKing on April 26, 2014, 08:07:00 AM
Actually the Chattanooga Aquarium preceded and provided a catalyst for the surrounding development.
The conversion of the Walnut Street Bridge into one of the longest pedestrian bridges in the county preceded the aquarium. It's pretty inaccurate to claim that the Tennessee Aquarium was the one trick pony that turned Chattanooga around. The things they did were coordinated and a lot more comprehensive.
We heard from a lot of city leaders and civic advocates here in the Scenic City and it is abundantly clear they never had a conversation about an aquarium in isolation. In fact, everything they did was put into a larger context.
And Lake is right, according to leaders here.. the pedestrian bridge preceded the aquarium.
Well you could say the river preceded the bridge but you two are both not giving credit to the fact that the aquarium was the catalyst. Besides that the Walnut Street Bridge opened the year after the aquarium. This article tells the story and although it doesn't even mention the bridge in timeline, I would give it more credit in regards to its part in the revival.
http://www.timesfreepress.com/news/2012/apr/29/aquarium-changed-cityscape-attitudes/
The aquarium was controversial at the time but you are both wrong in that it came before the bridge as well as being the catalyst for Chattanooga's urban renewal.
And the Hunter Museum preceded both.....Actually being in Chattanooga on foot and being told directly from the mayor, developers and other civic leaders about it being much more comprehensive, I'm going to take their word over that article. The aquarium was not a one trick pony that single handedly transformed Chattanooga. We're once again doing our community a huge disservice by attempting to sell such a tale and expecting an unrealistic outcome as the result.
I think it's fair to say the Chattanooga aquarium has been a catalyst for other development, but only because it and the surrounding area were planned in such a way as to fully capitalize on it. If an aquarium is going to be isolated, it could just as easily go somewhere that doesn't require it to take up a substantial amount of valuable riverfront property.
Quote from: thelakelander on April 26, 2014, 11:27:20 PM
IrvAdams. Are you for sure or is it a hope that tourist will flock downtown and to the river, simply to visit an isolated aquarium? Even though literally half of the South's major cities have aquariums, you'll be hard pressed to find them isolated. Like convention centers, they work best when they're a part of several complementing uses feeding each other within a compact pedestrian scale setting.
But Doesn't this complex of complementing uses have to start with something? Why not an aquarium? I've been to several aquariums in different cities, and I found each one to be different and local.
There's also the movement to bring the Adams here, that's a nautical theme also. I think this idea is as good a start as any, especially if their hand is not out for public dollars.
^To expand on my point: I've lived here all my life, and unlike every other city in Florida, Jax has basically never seemed to try and attract any visitors off the Interstate. It's I-95 for goodness sake, thousands pass by every day. It's almost like we were happy to hustle them on through.
Heck, we never even put up a simple sign that said "Exit here to see the largest Oak tree in the South, the 200 year old Treaty Oak." . We have minor and major attractions, shoreline, riverfront, Riverwalk, museums, etc. that are free and we have never bothered to really brag about them.
I would love to see a large glassed-in building on the riverfront with a ginormous sign that could be seen from the Xway that said "North Florida Regional Aquarium and Education Center". Or a more exciting name like "AquaWorld" or "Marine World".
I mean, let's try something. They may like it.
Quote from: IrvAdams on April 27, 2014, 01:16:24 PM
^To expand on my point: I've lived here all my life, and unlike every other city in Florida, Jax has basically never seemed to try and attract any visitors off the Interstate. It's I-95 for goodness sake, thousands pass by every day. It's almost like we were happy to hustle them on through.
Heck, we never even put up a simple sign that said "Exit here to see the largest Oak tree in the South, the 200 year old Treaty Oak." . We have minor and major attractions, shoreline, riverfront, Riverwalk, museums, etc. that are free and we have never bothered to really brag about them.
I would love to see a large glassed-in building on the riverfront with a ginormous sign that could be seen from the Xway that said "North Florida Regional Aquarium and Education Center". Or a more exciting name like "AquaWorld" or "Marine World".
I mean, let's try something. They may like it.
I agree with what you are saying. I just don't see it being reasonable to put downtown. Maybe at the beaches or somewhere like that, but I just don't see where it would fit in to downtown. It would require removal of something else. Let's face it the infrastructure of an Aquarium + parking takes some substantial real estate. I liked the idea of making it an extension of the Zoo. Possibly completely different park, but right next door. That may be a good idea... Just not downtown. From the people I have had come to my office, there worries are far greater than vagrants and lack of activity. Most people born and bred in North Florida aren't used to the parallel parking with limited space and one way streets. It seems to frustrate people. Just my honest opinion. I love the idea like I say, but not in downtown.
Quote from: Tacachale on April 27, 2014, 12:42:14 PM
I think it's fair to say the Chattanooga aquarium has been a catalyst for other development, but only because it and the surrounding area were planned in such a way as to fully capitalize on it. If an aquarium is going to be isolated, it could just as easily go somewhere that doesn't require it to take up a substantial amount of valuable riverfront property.
Yes, this is correct. The aquarium was a part of a coordinated and comprehensive plan. It was never a si gale entity or starting point. It was specifically mentioned that instead of rolling out a single thing, they raised funds necessary to implement several linked redevelopment projects at once. This important nugget is being overlooked in the Jax discussion.
Quote from: thelakelander on April 27, 2014, 03:38:43 PM
Quote from: Tacachale on April 27, 2014, 12:42:14 PM
I think it's fair to say the Chattanooga aquarium has been a catalyst for other development, but only because it and the surrounding area were planned in such a way as to fully capitalize on it. If an aquarium is going to be isolated, it could just as easily go somewhere that doesn't require it to take up a substantial amount of valuable riverfront property.
Yes, this is correct. The aquarium was a part of a coordinated and comprehensive plan. It was never a si gale entity or starting point. It was specifically mentioned that instead of rolling out a single thing, they raised funds necessary to implement several linked redevelopment projects at once. This important nugget is being overlooked in the Jax discussion.
Do you mean overlooked by those at the table financially Ennis? Where would you see such an aquarium being built in Jacksonville to give the city the best impact from this potential development? :)
Quote from: IrvAdams on April 27, 2014, 12:59:03 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on April 26, 2014, 11:27:20 PM
IrvAdams. Are you for sure or is it a hope that tourist will flock downtown and to the river, simply to visit an isolated aquarium? Even though literally half of the South's major cities have aquariums, you'll be hard pressed to find them isolated. Like convention centers, they work best when they're a part of several complementing uses feeding each other within a compact pedestrian scale setting.
But Doesn't this complex of complementing uses have to start with something? Why not an aquarium? I've been to several aquariums in different cities, and I found each one to be different and local.
There's also the movement to bring the Adams here, that's a nautical theme also. I think this idea is as good a start as any, especially if their hand is not out for public dollars.
Haven't we already started with the performing arts center, Landing, MOSH, Hyatt, Elbow, etc? If having an aquarium is desired and we want to use Chattanooga or Baltimore as the economic example, we need to talk less about specific uses and more about coordinating their placement in order to create a compact environment where all of these things feed off each other. That's where Chattanooga has really been successful. It was much more than just building an aquarium.
Quote from: Cheshire Cat on April 27, 2014, 03:51:57 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on April 27, 2014, 03:38:43 PM
Quote from: Tacachale on April 27, 2014, 12:42:14 PM
I think it's fair to say the Chattanooga aquarium has been a catalyst for other development, but only because it and the surrounding area were planned in such a way as to fully capitalize on it. If an aquarium is going to be isolated, it could just as easily go somewhere that doesn't require it to take up a substantial amount of valuable riverfront property.
Yes, this is correct. The aquarium was a part of a coordinated and comprehensive plan. It was never a si gale entity or starting point. It was specifically mentioned that instead of rolling out a single thing, they raised funds necessary to implement several linked redevelopment projects at once. This important nugget is being overlooked in the Jax discussion.
Do you mean overlooked by those at the table financially Ennis? Where would you see such an aquarium being built in Jacksonville to give the city the best impact from this potential development? :)
Personally I think the impact will be much more limited than many in Jax think. Aquariums come a dime a dozen now. Even Orlandois getting one....along with a London Eye sized ferris wheel, wax museum with shuttle service and ticket packages to Legoland. Thiswill open in aanother year or two on I-Drive. So there will be aquariums in Orlando, Tampa, Miami, Atlanta, and Charleston. I doubt significant traffic on I-95 will be pulling off to visit (many fly these days anyway). Besides, how is that IMAX at WGV doing? Are people flocking to visit it despite thesame thing being in every decent sized city these days?
With that said, if someone wants to spend their money on an aquarium, go for it. However, I believe the Jax conversation should focus moreon what type of downtown waterfront do we want to have and less on coming up and promoting isolated "save the day" gimmicks. Go through that process and we'll find out if specific uses like aquariums are the way to go, along with determining exactly where they should be sited.
Quote from: IrvAdams on April 27, 2014, 01:16:24 PM
^To expand on my point: I've lived here all my life, and unlike every other city in Florida, Jax has basically never seemed to try and attract any visitors off the Interstate. It's I-95 for goodness sake, thousands pass by every day. It's almost like we were happy to hustle them on through.
Heck, we never even put up a simple sign that said "Exit here to see the largest Oak tree in the South, the 200 year old Treaty Oak." . We have minor and major attractions, shoreline, riverfront, Riverwalk, museums, etc. that are free and we have never bothered to really brag about them.
I would love to see a large glassed-in building on the riverfront with a ginormous sign that could be seen from the Xway that said "North Florida Regional Aquarium and Education Center". Or a more exciting name like "AquaWorld" or "Marine World".
I mean, let's try something. They may like it.
That's a different conversation. My point is that if you look at Chatanooga, or Baltimore... They didn't just stick an aquarium 1.5 miles away from any sign of life and all of a sudden their downtowns magically worked. Which is essentially the premise behind putting an aquarium at an isolated location like Metro Park.
While I am not sure it is a good idea, I am not sure i understand the talk that it would be an isolated aquarium being built necessarily. The JBj article states they have had discussions with Mark Lamping of the Jaguars who would most likely lead any of Khan's involvement with the Shipyards redevelopment. So it at least sounds like they are exploring it as a part of the overall development of the Shipyards.
Quote from: thelakelander on April 27, 2014, 11:44:45 AM
And the Hunter Museum preceded both.....Actually being in Chattanooga on foot and being told directly from the mayor, developers and other civic leaders about it being much more comprehensive, I'm going to take their word over that article. The aquarium was not a one trick pony that single handedly transformed Chattanooga. We're once again doing our community a huge disservice by attempting to sell such a tale and expecting an unrealistic outcome as the result.
Im sure it was well thought out and it has been extremely successful but it started with the aquarium. You said the Walnut Street Bridge preceded the aquarium. It didn't.
Sorry. I was factoring in the process and reconstruction, which dates back to the late 1980s. According to a long time local developer, on one of the tours I participated in, this commitment resulted in private sector investment at the base of the bridge.
QuoteSince 1978, when it was closed to traffic for safety reasons after serving Chattanooga for 87 years, the Walnut Street Bridge sat disabled, deteriorating, dormant and yet another reminder of the city's decaying downtown. By the late 1980s, the city had taken steps to demolish the downtrodden bridge, but lacked the funding. Before officials could dismantle the bridge, however, a community campaign comprised of visionary activists, civic leaders and historic preservationists banded together to save the bridge, envisioning it as a vibrant pedestrian bridge that could help propel a downtown renaissance. After nominating the bridge as an historic landmark (1990), work began to raise the millions necessary to restore The Bridge as a pedestrian walkway, partially funded by a U.S. Department of Transportation grant and with the support of hundreds of thousands of dollars from Chattanoogans.
http://www.theparksfoundation.org/about.html
Nevertheless, it's irrelevant to the reality of the situation. In Chattanooga, an aquarium was not placed in the middle of nowhere, only to magically sprout additional redevelopment on its own. Specifically, they went through a visioning process, identified several projects and pulled together millions in private/private sector funding to get several projects started around the same time. Others include the visitors center, Creative Discovery Museum and the IMAX theater. This type of coordination (also successful with Baltimore's Inner Harbor) is what creates the vibe that builds pedestrian scale synergy which results in attracting additional infill and complementing development. It really doesn't matter if we're talking about the Landing's redevelopment, a new convention center, a ship museum, movie theatre or aquarium, the key to success is the coordination and investment of complementing uses within a compact, pedestrian scale setting. For some reason, Jax has a history for singling out parts of other community's plans and selling them as if they are a solution that will deliver similar synergy, even if isolated.
Quote from: edjax on April 27, 2014, 05:36:31 PM
While I am not sure it is a good idea, I am not sure i understand the talk that it would be an isolated aquarium being built necessarily. The JBj article states they have had discussions with Mark Lamping of the Jaguars who would most likely lead any of Khan's involvement with the Shipyards redevelopment. So it at least sounds like they are exploring it as a part of the overall development of the Shipyards.
Khan doesn't own the shipyards site. At this point in time, there's no redeveloment plan or timeline for it either. Maybe something changes in upcoming years but that remains to be seen in 2014.
^^Well at this point there is no contract to build an aquarium at the shipyard site either and wow. It may not happen in 2014 either.
Quote from: edjax on April 27, 2014, 10:56:12 PM
^^Well at this point there is no contract to build an aquarium at the shipyard site either and wow. It may not happen in 2014 either.
off topic, but just out of curiosity this isn't referring to that tiny yard over by maxwell house right?
Quote from: edjax on April 27, 2014, 10:56:12 PM
^^Well at this point there is no contract to build an aquarium at the shipyard site either and wow. It may not happen in 2014 either.
Right. but one would assume that you'd like such investments to be an actual success instead of failure? If so, there's a process that's being ignored that really needs to take place.
Maybe the process is taking place. At this point it is all pretty speculative. Maybe they will come out in a month and say hey you know what that site does not really make sense or even perhaps the whole idea may not make sense now that we have done further research. Sorta like mr. Williams and his Davis building idea. Who knows. My point was everyone was stating what a bad idea to place it in an isolated area by itself and expect it to be anything, but I was just pointing out that it possibly could be just part of a much bigger plan for the Shipyards property since they indicated they have had discussions with Lamping. And yea I am quite aware Khan does not own the Shipyards site, but he has been tied with a potential desire to get involved with its development.
Quote from: AuditoreEnterprise on April 27, 2014, 11:01:24 PM
Quote from: edjax on April 27, 2014, 10:56:12 PM
^^Well at this point there is no contract to build an aquarium at the shipyard site either and wow. It may not happen in 2014 either.
off topic, but just out of curiosity this isn't referring to that tiny yard over by maxwell house right?
Yea. It goes from that point down to Metropolitan Park. It is around 30 acres.
Quote from: edjax on April 28, 2014, 12:02:00 AM
Quote from: AuditoreEnterprise on April 27, 2014, 11:01:24 PM
Quote from: edjax on April 27, 2014, 10:56:12 PM
^^Well at this point there is no contract to build an aquarium at the shipyard site either and wow. It may not happen in 2014 either.
off topic, but just out of curiosity this isn't referring to that tiny yard over by maxwell house right?
Yea. It goes from that point down to Metropolitan Park. It is around 30 acres.
Oh ok I was under the impression they were going to either use that tiny slip or put it where metro park is currently at. I think this idea just might work then... It is close enough to connect that side to center downtown. hmmm I am curious now to see where they go from here.
Quote from: edjax on April 27, 2014, 11:19:14 PM
Maybe the process is taking place. At this point it is all pretty speculative. Maybe they will come out in a month and say hey you know what that site does not really make sense or even perhaps the whole idea may not make sense now that we have done further research. Sorta like mr. Williams and his Davis building idea. Who knows. My point was everyone was stating what a bad idea to place it in an isolated area by itself and expect it to be anything, but I was just pointing out that it possibly could be just part of a much bigger plan for the Shipyards property since they indicated they have had discussions with Lamping. And yea I am quite aware Khan does not own the Shipyards site, but he has been tied with a potential desire to get involved with its development.
Yes, I understood. Even in this scenario, one should question and be concerned about the scale factor. Unless, people are desiring to shift, spread out potential activity, or wait 30 years for vibrancy to happen, these locations (shipyards included) are isolated in comparison with many of the places (like Chattanooga and Baltimore) that have been mentioned.
For example, here is an aerial of the Inner Harbor:
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/600015053_n28CN-600x10000.jpg)
Just about all of it fits within the aerial highlighted in red below:
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/600014980_faZZ2-M.jpg)
Scaled aerials indicate that Baltimore's Inner Harbor would cover portions of the North and Southbanks between the Acosta Bridge and Berkman Plaza. On foot, what seems like a large vibrant waterfront district in Baltimore, would take up one third of Downtown Jacksonville's waterfront.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/600015022_6PUdL-M.jpg)
If one takes the Chattanooga or Baltimore Inner Harbor path, all of these new uses that everyone wants to see don't happen in out-of-the-way spots like the Shipyards or Metropolitan Park. Instead, the focus would become all the surface parking lots and underutilized properties sitting closer to the heart of the downtown waterfront.
Btw, some random waterfront Chattanooga shots:
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Chattanooga-Next-City-Vanguard/i-rpGs7z7/0/M/DSCF1437-M.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Chattanooga-Next-City-Vanguard/i-xFZgvKT/0/L/DSCF1440-L.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Chattanooga-Next-City-Vanguard/i-WPtzPCX/0/L/DSCF1643-L.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Chattanooga-Next-City-Vanguard/i-mDbNV4M/0/L/DSCF1681-L.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Chattanooga-Next-City-Vanguard/i-K4B6Cc7/0/XL/DSCF1696-XL.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Chattanooga-Next-City-Vanguard/i-gr6RFZz/0/XL/DSCF1712-XL.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Chattanooga-Next-City-Vanguard/i-pFNZQ4d/0/XL/DSCF1720-XL.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Chattanooga-Next-City-Vanguard/i-LqxNnKH/0/L/DSCF1747-L.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Chattanooga-Next-City-Vanguard/i-hbMLpbc/0/L/DSCF1800-L.jpg)
Nice pics. Thanks for sharing.
^Jax Liquors?
Yeah, that was kind of crazy running into that name, one or two blocks from the Tennessee Aquarium.
A few more pics. I have about 500 images from the Chattanooga trip between two cameras. I plan to upload the second photo card's images into our photo gallery later tonight, after I get back to town.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Chattanooga-Next-City-Vanguard/i-rxgsgVz/0/M/DSCF1765-M.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Chattanooga-Next-City-Vanguard/i-x7S5tGb/0/M/DSCF1732-M.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Chattanooga-Next-City-Vanguard/i-5XzD95B/0/M/DSCF1718-M.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Chattanooga-Next-City-Vanguard/i-Hsk5gqX/0/M/DSCF1667-M.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Chattanooga-Next-City-Vanguard/i-7dKsjdz/0/X2/DSCF1624-X2.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Chattanooga-Next-City-Vanguard/i-rs7wCdJ/0/M/DSCF1607-M.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Chattanooga-Next-City-Vanguard/i-3NzfHFZ/0/M/DSCF1606-M.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Chattanooga-Next-City-Vanguard/i-cxZsnTR/0/M/DSCF1585-M.jpg)
Wow people walking around. That might be the key! ;)
Thanks for posting. Really hope to get up there someday.
Lots of people walk when there is something worth walking to on every single contiguous block. That's the thing that really stands out in Chattanooga. The environment there changes a lot when surface lots start dominating or equally sharing sidewalk frontage with buildings and green space. Apply this to the Shipyards or Metropolitan Park sites and you may discover we'll need 30 years and billions in private investment to create the scene shown in those Chattanooga images. Fill in the surface lots and underutilized spaces between the Hyatt and Acosta Bridge and such a scene could happen in less than 10.
Quote from: thelakelander on April 28, 2014, 12:17:19 PM
Lots of people walk when there is something worth walking to on every single contiguous block. That's the thing that really stands out in Chattanooga. The environment there changes a lot when surface lots start dominating or equally sharing sidewalk frontage with buildings and green space. Apply this to the Shipyards or Metropolitan Park sites and you may discover we'll need 30 years and billions in private investment to create the scene shown in those Chattanooga images. Fill in the surface lots and underutilized spaces between the Hyatt and Acosta Bridge and such a scene could happen in less than 10.
Well said and great point. +1
I wonder if I could chime in, with the viewpoint of a complete outsider? My wife and I are lifelong residents of Michigan, but we are nearing the end of our careers and have spent the past decade looking at warmer places to call home. We have a long list of "must-have" and "should-have" items, but when it's all said and done, we decided on the metro-Jacksonville area. It has almost everything that we are looking for, except two, and neither of those are deal-breakers.
The two? First, it has no light-rail system to get into and out of downtown easily. This makes "big-city" living SO much easier, but again, it's not a major issue, for us. The second issue is, the lack of a vibrant downtown area. I mean, if you get a block away from The Landings area, you (a) have not much to do and, (b) don't feel very safe. We are avid runners and cyclists, and if you consider every place we have looked at, from Seattle, Portland, Austin, Dallas, Atlanta, ... every single one has a place where active people feel safe and secure AND have something to do while they are in the CBD, whether it's a multitude of restaurants, or fish in a big tank!
Should someone build this aquarium? That's way beyond me. What I do know is, Downtown Jax doesn't have that feel that it should have, especially if you consider how much waterfront space there is at its disposal, and the size of the city, itself. Hopefully, some bright individuals can come up with a shared vision to make this happen, instead of a piecemeal "build it, they will come" mentality. :)
Quote from: TimmyB on April 28, 2014, 12:27:41 PM
I wonder if I could chime in, with the viewpoint of a complete outsider? My wife and I are lifelong residents of Michigan, but we are nearing the end of our careers and have spent the past decade looking at warmer places to call home. We have a long list of "must-have" and "should-have" items, but when it's all said and done, we decided on the metro-Jacksonville area. It has almost everything that we are looking for, except two, and neither of those are deal-breakers.
The two? First, it has no light-rail system to get into and out of downtown easily. This makes "big-city" living SO much easier, but again, it's not a major issue, for us. The second issue is, the lack of a vibrant downtown area. I mean, if you get a block away from The Landings area, you (a) have not much to do and, (b) don't feel very safe. We are avid runners and cyclists, and if you consider every place we have looked at, from Seattle, Portland, Austin, Dallas, Atlanta, ... every single one has a place where active people feel safe and secure AND have something to do while they are in the CBD, whether it's a multitude of restaurants, or fish in a big tank!
Should someone build this aquarium? That's way beyond me. What I do know is, Downtown Jax doesn't have that feel that it should have, especially if you consider how much waterfront space there is at its disposal, and the size of the city, itself. Hopefully, some bright individuals can come up with a shared vision to make this happen, instead of a piecemeal "build it, they will come" mentality. :)
To jacksonville's credit... When I left for Los Angeles about 12 Years ago... You did not come downtown period, unless you had to. Now I live downtown and it is hands down one of the best places I have ever lived. As for vibrancy I do see a lot of it here, you just have to be down here at the right time such as during the Jazz fest, One spark, art walk ect. I can see the florida theatre from my bedroom window and they have something going on there almost every night. From Thursday until Saturday most all of the bars over there are packed. The Landing is a little sad, but it itself is even better than it used to be. I would go out on a limb here since i walk downtown a lot and say its more in the range of a 20 block radius that you can walk and be fine. The southbank isn't too bad either so that only extends the range. I see tons of people running the main street bridge every night.
As for Light rail there is another thread here somewhere maybe someone will link it here, but the city is currently planning that for the future. So I think if you were to move here then you could also be a part of something really great that is going on here :) Welcome to the forums by the way! I do hope you stick around and explore what people are saying! after all the saying is Downtown is on Fire!!!
Quote from: AuditoreEnterprise on April 28, 2014, 12:41:35 PM
Quote from: TimmyB on April 28, 2014, 12:27:41 PM
I wonder if I could chime in, with the viewpoint of a complete outsider? My wife and I are lifelong residents of Michigan, but we are nearing the end of our careers and have spent the past decade looking at warmer places to call home. We have a long list of "must-have" and "should-have" items, but when it's all said and done, we decided on the metro-Jacksonville area. It has almost everything that we are looking for, except two, and neither of those are deal-breakers.
The two? First, it has no light-rail system to get into and out of downtown easily. This makes "big-city" living SO much easier, but again, it's not a major issue, for us. The second issue is, the lack of a vibrant downtown area. I mean, if you get a block away from The Landings area, you (a) have not much to do and, (b) don't feel very safe. We are avid runners and cyclists, and if you consider every place we have looked at, from Seattle, Portland, Austin, Dallas, Atlanta, ... every single one has a place where active people feel safe and secure AND have something to do while they are in the CBD, whether it's a multitude of restaurants, or fish in a big tank!
Should someone build this aquarium? That's way beyond me. What I do know is, Downtown Jax doesn't have that feel that it should have, especially if you consider how much waterfront space there is at its disposal, and the size of the city, itself. Hopefully, some bright individuals can come up with a shared vision to make this happen, instead of a piecemeal "build it, they will come" mentality. :)
To jacksonville's credit... When I left for Los Angeles about 12 Years ago... You did not come downtown period, unless you had to. Now I live downtown and it is hands down one of the best places I have ever lived. As for vibrancy I do see a lot of it here, you just have to be down here at the right time such as during the Jazz fest, One spark, art walk ect. I can see the florida theatre from my bedroom window and they have something going on there almost every night. From Thursday until Saturday most all of the bars over there are packed. The Landing is a little sad, but it itself is even better than it used to be. I would go out on a limb here since i walk downtown a lot and say its more in the range of a 20 block radius that you can walk and be fine. The southbank isn't too bad either so that only extends the range. I see tons of people running the main street bridge every night.
As for Light rail there is another thread here somewhere maybe someone will link it here, but the city is currently planning that for the future. So I think if you were to move here then you could also be a part of something really great that is going on here :) Welcome to the forums by the way! I do hope you stick around and explore what people are saying! after all the saying is Downtown is on Fire!!!
Thanks, AE! I hope your observations are more correct than ours have been. Like I said, our checklist is quite long and JAX checked off almost all of them, so we are very excited to be coming down! Can't come soon enough, sadly. <sigh> ;)
Quote from: TimmyB on April 28, 2014, 12:49:32 PM
Quote from: AuditoreEnterprise on April 28, 2014, 12:41:35 PM
Quote from: TimmyB on April 28, 2014, 12:27:41 PM
I wonder if I could chime in, with the viewpoint of a complete outsider? My wife and I are lifelong residents of Michigan, but we are nearing the end of our careers and have spent the past decade looking at warmer places to call home. We have a long list of "must-have" and "should-have" items, but when it's all said and done, we decided on the metro-Jacksonville area. It has almost everything that we are looking for, except two, and neither of those are deal-breakers.
The two? First, it has no light-rail system to get into and out of downtown easily. This makes "big-city" living SO much easier, but again, it's not a major issue, for us. The second issue is, the lack of a vibrant downtown area. I mean, if you get a block away from The Landings area, you (a) have not much to do and, (b) don't feel very safe. We are avid runners and cyclists, and if you consider every place we have looked at, from Seattle, Portland, Austin, Dallas, Atlanta, ... every single one has a place where active people feel safe and secure AND have something to do while they are in the CBD, whether it's a multitude of restaurants, or fish in a big tank!
Should someone build this aquarium? That's way beyond me. What I do know is, Downtown Jax doesn't have that feel that it should have, especially if you consider how much waterfront space there is at its disposal, and the size of the city, itself. Hopefully, some bright individuals can come up with a shared vision to make this happen, instead of a piecemeal "build it, they will come" mentality. :)
To jacksonville's credit... When I left for Los Angeles about 12 Years ago... You did not come downtown period, unless you had to. Now I live downtown and it is hands down one of the best places I have ever lived. As for vibrancy I do see a lot of it here, you just have to be down here at the right time such as during the Jazz fest, One spark, art walk ect. I can see the florida theatre from my bedroom window and they have something going on there almost every night. From Thursday until Saturday most all of the bars over there are packed. The Landing is a little sad, but it itself is even better than it used to be. I would go out on a limb here since i walk downtown a lot and say its more in the range of a 20 block radius that you can walk and be fine. The southbank isn't too bad either so that only extends the range. I see tons of people running the main street bridge every night.
As for Light rail there is another thread here somewhere maybe someone will link it here, but the city is currently planning that for the future. So I think if you were to move here then you could also be a part of something really great that is going on here :) Welcome to the forums by the way! I do hope you stick around and explore what people are saying! after all the saying is Downtown is on Fire!!!
Thanks, AE! I hope your observations are more correct than ours have been. Like I said, our checklist is quite long and JAX checked off almost all of them, so we are very excited to be coming down! Can't come soon enough, sadly. <sigh> ;)
Alot of people look at big leaps as evidence of progress, but after being gone for that amount of time the improvements to me were greater than the way someone who has been watching the progresses view I guess.
Also if you are ever in town in the future and want to look around just let me know. You can swing by my office and I will be more than happy to show you around better.
Odd thread as my two previous homes are Chattanooga and Baltimore.
A few random thoughts off the top of my head:
1 - Both cities have a concentration of college students downtown. Baltimore (Johns Hopkins/MICA) Chattanooga (UT-C)
Built in art/music/restaurant/bar scene. UNF would have done wonders for this city had it located downtown in what I assume would have been an easy move in the 70s. I'm sure there are reasons, though.
2 - Both cities have historic neighborhoods directly surrounding the vibrancy. Baltimore (Fells Point/Federal Hill) Chattanooga (North Shore)
I think Springfield sort of fits this aside from the Union/State St. Expressway.
3 - Both cities have a long history of tourism. Baltimore (Federal Hill/Ft McHenry) Chattanooga (ChooChoo/Rock City/Ruby Falls/Civil War Sights)
How do we fit in?
that is actually a good point... NY has BYU and Los Angeles has UCLA and USC... All of those cities are exactly as you described... I completely omitted that fact. I do know a couple schools have talks about putting things into the Barnett building when it is done. I think FSCJ downtown would have been better served as a UNF. Who knows why they never came down here.
Great pics, Lake! You and Field make a couple of excellent ambassadors for Jax. Couldn't have been a better duo!
Quote from: thelakelander on April 28, 2014, 12:17:19 PM
Lots of people walk when there is something worth walking to on every single contiguous block. That's the thing that really stands out in Chattanooga. The environment there changes a lot when surface lots start dominating or equally sharing sidewalk frontage with buildings and green space. Apply this to the Shipyards or Metropolitan Park sites and you may discover we'll need 30 years and billions in private investment to create the scene shown in those Chattanooga images. Fill in the surface lots and underutilized spaces between the Hyatt and Acosta Bridge and such a scene could happen in less than 10.
You've been saying this since the day I met you. And you've been right about most things you say. ;)
Connectivity and complementary uses will go so much further than investing in disparate parts of the CBD and creating competing services. And point #2, lets go for some singles and play small ball rather than depending on one big swing to bail us out.
Quote from: TimmyB on April 28, 2014, 12:49:32 PM
Thanks, AE! I hope your observations are more correct than ours have been. Like I said, our checklist is quite long and JAX checked off almost all of them, so we are very excited to be coming down! Can't come soon enough, sadly. <sigh> ;)
What city are you coming from? I'm glad you've decided to come here despite the issues. I'm glad you are attracted by all Jax has to offer and I'm glad you recognize and agree with those couple deficiencies. This is really an exciting time and I anticipate huge change and improvement in the next few years.
The Jax2025 Vision Plan found that most residents put public transit and a vibrant downtown as two of the top 3 or 4 priorities facing the city over the next decade. It'll be great to have a couple more citizens who feel the same way and will push for these improvements.
I'm sure you already know this but Riverside or Brooklyn may be the best bet for you to find the lifestyle you seek. Skyway extension into Brooklyn is almost certainly the next step we'll see in fixed transit of any form, and further down the road some type of light rail from Riverside will probably happen before there is commuter or light rail anywhere else.
Quote from: AuditoreEnterprise on April 28, 2014, 01:05:58 PM
Also if you are ever in town in the future and want to look around just let me know. You can swing by my office and I will be more than happy to show you around better.
I'll take you up on this some time. I don't need anyone to show me around but I wouldn't mind chatting about the city.
Quote from: AuditoreEnterprise on April 28, 2014, 02:07:59 PM
that is actually a good point... NY has BYU and Los Angeles has UCLA and USC... All of those cities are exactly as you described... I completely omitted that fact. I do know a couple schools have talks about putting things into the Barnett building when it is done. I think FSCJ downtown would have been better served as a UNF. Who knows why they never came down here.
Yeah and FSCJ Downtown is completely fenced off from its surroundings. The skyway extension was originally supposed to run straight into the third floor right outside my father's office. I can only assume the college changed its mind after realizing they might have "undesirable" foot traffic through their doors.
And JU began downtown before moving out to Arlington, iirc. Another missed opportunity was when Florida Coastal moved its campus six or seven years ago and had considered downtown. Instead they selected their shared suburban site with the Art Institute.
I'm game for meeting up and narrating tours of the city as well. I like showing people the good, bad, and ugly of our urban core.
Maximus, we are in the thriving (ha!) metropolis of Battle Creek. You know, the one that used to make your Frosted Flakes, before kellogg's started moving their operations out and laying off 10,000 workers!
Jacksonville has SO much to offer. Every time we come back for a visit, we keep looking for something that will make us say that we made the wrong choice; haven't found it, so far!!!
That is a shame, but I do understand it is a college none the less and I completely get that they didn't want the undesired foot traffic. I am just hoping people can get together and take the steps to make the city better in the end. Just takes enough like minded people to make a difference. Who knows maybe we all can be that forming group to take it from getting a payday back to simply making a difference. My doors are always open to all who come with suggestions I welcome people to come by with ideas and see what can be done :)
Quote from: TimmyB on April 28, 2014, 02:38:18 PM
Maximus, we are in the thriving (ha!) metropolis of Battle Creek. You know, the one that used to make your Frosted Flakes, before kellogg's started moving their operations out and laying off 10,000 workers!
Jacksonville has SO much to offer. Every time we come back for a visit, we keep looking for something that will make us say that we made the wrong choice; haven't found it, so far!!!
Welcome to Jacksonville and the forums, Timmy. My wife is originally from Battle Creek and a lot of her family lives there now. Beautiful part of the country. I've found a lot of similarities between the Jax area and Western Michigan in terms of a friendly, laid back culture and natural beauty. You'll probably really appreciate the winters but watch out for the summers. We do have it a lot better than most of Florida, however.
Your list identified what may be Jacksonville's two biggest downsides: a struggling Downtown environment and weak public transit. However, part of this forum's purpose is helping improve both those things, and we're making progress.
If you're interested in urban areas supportive of active life styles, there are some great ones right near downtown. You'll definitely want to check out Riverside, Avondale, San Marco, and Springfield if you haven't yet. Lots of opportunities for runners and cyclists, not to mention great restaurants and bars. We also have some very nice suburban areas; the Beaches is probably the best for folks who like to get their exercise out of doors.
Again, welcome to Jacksonville, Metro and otherwise.
Quote from: Tacachale on April 28, 2014, 05:18:05 PM
Welcome to Jacksonville and the forums, Timmy. My wife is originally from Battle Creek and a lot of her family lives there now. Beautiful part of the country. I've found a lot of similarities between the Jax area and Western Michigan in terms of a friendly, laid back culture and natural beauty. You'll probably really appreciate the winters but watch out for the summers. We do have it a lot better than most of Florida, however.
Your list identified what may be Jacksonville's two biggest downsides: a struggling Downtown environment and weak public transit. However, part of this forum's purpose is helping improve both those things, and we're making progress.
If you're interested in urban areas supportive of active life styles, there are some great ones right near downtown. You'll definitely want to check out Riverside, Avondale, San Marco, and Springfield if you haven't yet. Lots of opportunities for runners and cyclists, not to mention great restaurants and bars. We also have some very nice suburban areas; the Beaches is probably the best for folks who like to get their exercise out of doors.
Again, welcome to Jacksonville, Metro and otherwise.
Small world, eh? Thanks for the welcome! We have visited some of those neighborhoods, already, but we have our heart set on living near the water, so Beaches it is! :)
Welcome, Timmy. I don't know Battle Creek but it looks like it's not far from Chicago, where I used to live. And I'm not saying you shouldn't move to the beaches, but there is plenty of water away from the beach too!!
Quote from: ProjectMaximus on April 28, 2014, 08:16:43 PM
Welcome, Timmy. I don't know Battle Creek but it looks like it's not far from Chicago, where I used to live. And I'm not saying you shouldn't move to the beaches, but there is plenty of water away from the beach too!!
Thanks, Maximus! I appreciate the advice, but for the first year our so, we want to give ourselves what we never could in our working years, and that is to be within a walking distance to either the ocean or Lake Michigan! From what we've seen already, there are indeed so many areas we could be happy, but the water is the number one thing on the list, the one non-negotiable.
You are right about Chicago; we go there often! Love that town. :)
Quote from: TimmyB on April 28, 2014, 10:08:17 PM
Quote from: ProjectMaximus on April 28, 2014, 08:16:43 PM
Welcome, Timmy. I don't know Battle Creek but it looks like it's not far from Chicago, where I used to live. And I'm not saying you shouldn't move to the beaches, but there is plenty of water away from the beach too!!
Thanks, Maximus! I appreciate the advice, but for the first year our so, we want to give ourselves what we never could in our working years, and that is to be within a walking distance to either the ocean or Lake Michigan! From what we've seen already, there are indeed so many areas we could be happy, but the water is the number one thing on the list, the one non-negotiable.
You are right about Chicago; we go there often! Love that town. :)
I actually think you are gonna really like the beaches. There is a lot going on there.
it has a huge biking/jogging/walking community and it goes through 3 cities Jax beach, neptune beach, and atlantic beach.
For a future article I'm working on.
Downtown Chattanooga riverfront and main attractions. Highlighted in green, most tend to sit in a compact area between the P R Olgiati and Walnut Street Bridges:
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Chattanooga-Next-City-Vanguard/i-9n9CFNr/0/L/Jacksonville%20Chattanooga-1-L.jpg)
Chattanooga's green highlighted area overlayed over Downtown Jacksonville at the same scale. The Shipyards fall well outside and the proposed AquaJax site at Metropolitan Park isn't even on the map.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Chattanooga-Next-City-Vanguard/i-PgD4pVM/0/L/Jacksonville%20Chattanooga-2-L.jpg)
When I mentioned the need to cluster things within a compact setting, this visually explains a major Jacksonville problem involving downtown revitalization schemes over the years. What's shown in that Chattanooga image has taken over 20 years to accomplish. The same thing applies to vibrant places like Baltimore's Inner Harbor.
Diane Melendez asked me a question about the best sites for infill projects a few pages back. I'd argue that regardless of use or selected one trick pony, the best would be to get better utilization out of the surface parking lots, existing buildings and green spaces between the Acosta Bridge and Hyatt/old courthouse site.
Quotethelakelander: Diane Melendez asked me a question about the best sites for infill projects a few pages back. I'd argue that regardless of use or selected one trick pony, the best would be to get better utilization out of the surface parking lots, existing buildings and green spaces between the Acosta Bridge and Hyatt/old courthouse site.
I certainly agree with you on this Ennis. We recently received a plan from the DIA and to my eye it does not really address how to best utilize what currently exists in the creation of a downtown plan. Or did I miss something. What is up with our city planners in this regard? Everything seems to be a piece meal approach to an overall plan, or is about plans that miss the mark.
Quote from: thelakelander on April 30, 2014, 01:59:27 PM
For a future article I'm working on.
Downtown Chattanooga riverfront and main attractions. Highlighted in green, most tend to sit in a compact area between the P R Olgiati and Walnut Street Bridges:
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Chattanooga-Next-City-Vanguard/i-9n9CFNr/0/L/Jacksonville%20Chattanooga-1-L.jpg)
Chattanooga's green highlighted area overlayed over Downtown Jacksonville at the same scale. The Shipyards fall well outside and the proposed AquaJax site at Metropolitan Park isn't even on the map.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Chattanooga-Next-City-Vanguard/i-PgD4pVM/0/L/Jacksonville%20Chattanooga-2-L.jpg)
When I mentioned the need to cluster things within a compact setting, this visually explains a major Jacksonville problem involving downtown revitalization schemes over the years. What's shown in that Chattanooga image has taken over 20 years to accomplish. The same thing applies to vibrant places like Baltimore's Inner Harbor.
Diane Melendez asked me a question about the best sites for infill projects a few pages back. I'd argue that regardless of use or selected one trick pony, the best would be to get better utilization out of the surface parking lots, existing buildings and green spaces between the Acosta Bridge and Hyatt/old courthouse site.
Ok I will be honest here, because I am one to always accept when I was wrong... I seen so much reference to how Chattanooga and Jacksonville are being compared, but after this illustration I now see why. I will be looking forward to this article when it is posted.
The 'compact setting' is definitely a big piece of the puzzle that has been missing in all of Jacksonville's attempts at revitalization. By trying to revitalize Brooklyn, LaVilla, the Southbank, the Northbank, the Cathedral district, AND the Sports complex district ALL at the same time, they have succeeded in reviving none of them. Too much land area with too few 'anchors' to spread around all of them.
That issue plus ignoring the necessity for pedestrian scale and friendliness , are the two biggest fault lines running through the last two decades plus of urban redevelopment in JAX.
Just think if the Baseball Grounds had been integrated into the urban fabric of Brooklyn or LaVilla, instead of clustered with rarely utilized facilities (the Stadium and Arena are dark most nights) in a sea of surface lots.
Quote from: vicupstate on April 30, 2014, 05:05:38 PM
The 'compact setting' is definitely a big piece of the puzzle that has been missing in all of Jacksonville's attempts at revitalization. By trying to revitalize Brooklyn, LaVilla, the Southbank, the Northbank, the Cathedral district, AND the Sports complex district ALL at the same time, they have succeeded in reviving none of them. Too much land area with too few 'anchors' to spread around all of them.
That issue plus ignoring the necessity for pedestrian scale and friendliness , are the two biggest fault lines running through the last two decades plus of urban redevelopment in JAX.
Just think if the Baseball Grounds had been integrated into the urban fabric of Brooklyn or LaVilla, instead of clustered with rarely utilized facilities (the Stadium and Arena are dark most nights) in a sea of surface lots.
This lack of coordination in projects reflects a lack of understanding at the level of city planning and the various agencies that are supposed to be working for a downtown plan. When that is coupled with individual investment developments and dreams we will always be facing down a "patchwork quilt" of development in which the "threads" of connectivity are often missing.
Quote from: Cheshire Cat on April 30, 2014, 02:42:58 PM
Quotethelakelander: Diane Melendez asked me a question about the best sites for infill projects a few pages back. I'd argue that regardless of use or selected one trick pony, the best would be to get better utilization out of the surface parking lots, existing buildings and green spaces between the Acosta Bridge and Hyatt/old courthouse site.
I certainly agree with you on this Ennis. We recently received a plan from the DIA and to my eye it does not really address how to best utilize what currently exists in the creation of a downtown plan. Or did I miss something. What is up with our city planners in this regard? Everything seems to be a piece meal approach to an overall plan, or is about plans that miss the mark.
I believe the DIA plan only includes projects they plan to put their money into making happen. Nevertheless, yes, the version I saw a few months back doesn't properly address this particular issue.
Quote from: thelakelander on April 30, 2014, 05:50:48 PM
Quote from: Cheshire Cat on April 30, 2014, 02:42:58 PM
Quotethelakelander: Diane Melendez asked me a question about the best sites for infill projects a few pages back. I'd argue that regardless of use or selected one trick pony, the best would be to get better utilization out of the surface parking lots, existing buildings and green spaces between the Acosta Bridge and Hyatt/old courthouse site.
I certainly agree with you on this Ennis. We recently received a plan from the DIA and to my eye it does not really address how to best utilize what currently exists in the creation of a downtown plan. Or did I miss something. What is up with our city planners in this regard? Everything seems to be a piece meal approach to an overall plan, or is about plans that miss the mark.
I believe the DIA plan only includes projects they plan to put their money into making happen. Nevertheless, yes, the version I saw a few months back doesn't properly address this particular issue.
I guess this just more deeply illustrates the problem with all of the disjointed efforts in the core and surrounding areas. I would hope the DIA is interfacing with other organizations and does not simply remain focused upon those efforts that they have a financial interest it. If they do, we still end up with all the pieces all over the board. imo
Quote from: Cheshire Cat on April 30, 2014, 06:30:31 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on April 30, 2014, 05:50:48 PM
Quote from: Cheshire Cat on April 30, 2014, 02:42:58 PM
Quotethelakelander: Diane Melendez asked me a question about the best sites for infill projects a few pages back. I'd argue that regardless of use or selected one trick pony, the best would be to get better utilization out of the surface parking lots, existing buildings and green spaces between the Acosta Bridge and Hyatt/old courthouse site.
I certainly agree with you on this Ennis. We recently received a plan from the DIA and to my eye it does not really address how to best utilize what currently exists in the creation of a downtown plan. Or did I miss something. What is up with our city planners in this regard? Everything seems to be a piece meal approach to an overall plan, or is about plans that miss the mark.
I believe the DIA plan only includes projects they plan to put their money into making happen. Nevertheless, yes, the version I saw a few months back doesn't properly address this particular issue.
I guess this just more deeply illustrates the problem with all of the disjointed efforts in the core and surrounding areas. I would hope the DIA is interfacing with other organizations and does not simply remain focused upon those efforts that they have a financial interest it. If they do, we still end up with all the pieces all over the board. imo
From my understanding the DIA is supposed to vote on something that would a lot money to people wishing to have Start-up assistance. I am not too sure about where it actually is on the table, but the men I talked to in the DIA office said, a week ago, that 30 - 45 days they would expect it to be approved. I am not sure how much that will help overall, but it may fill in some of the pockets to smaller businesses.
A downtown Jacksonville aquarium proposal has been drawn up. The TU has a paywall.
http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2014-12-23/story/vision-downtown-aquarium-within-sight
I see grand plans in everything but the fundraising department
Quote from: FSBA on December 23, 2014, 09:30:54 PM
I see grand plans in everything but the fundraising department
yeah, I'd say it looks and sounds great. But there is that $100 million ....
I am totally blown away by the design of the building! No complaints here as it does scream iconic for sure. Only wishing somehow $100 million will rain down from the heavens, almost seems to be far fetched. But while they are at it, I would strongly suggest partnering with MOSH and add a new museum as part of the overall plan. Not only would this increase attendance for both respectively as they will feed off and into each other, it would also give Jax condensed educational/entertainment center. Combine this with an included children's museum that currently sits nearby and you have a win all across the board. My strong recommendation would be for Aquajax, JaxZoo, and MOSH to make one full collaborative effort on a single vision.
Seems like a pipe dream. I was expecting something more concrete when I saw the title and most recent link. I wouldn't worry about raising $100 million just yet. Let's get the much cheaper feasibility study done first.
Quote from: Marle Brando on December 23, 2014, 11:06:26 PM
I am totally blown away by the design of the building! No complaints here as it does scream iconic for sure. Only wishing somehow $100 million will rain down from the heavens, almost seems to be far fetched. But while they are at it, I would strongly suggest partnering with MOSH and add a new museum as part of the overall plan. Not only would this increase attendance for both respectively as they will feed off and into each other, it would also give Jax condensed educational/entertainment center. Combine this with an included children's museum that currently sits nearby and you have a win all across the board. My strong recommendation would be for Aquajax, JaxZoo, and MOSH to make one full collaborative effort on a single vision.
Part of their plan includes a water taxi that would take you from the museum, to the aquarium and then to the zoo. While I agree mosh is getting a little stale, I think an expansion at the current site would suffice. As it stands it could survive a few more years... Though the planetarium desperately needs to be updated.
QuoteSeems like a pipe dream. I was expecting something more concrete when I saw the title and most recent link. I wouldn't worry about raising $100 million just yet. Let's get the much cheaper feasibility study done first.
Did anyone read the article in the Times Union yesterday, really read it? The zoo has worked hard to raise its funding, and never had to raise, 50-60, let alone 100 million for its projects and it is the major animal center in Jacksonville. What makes these "new animal experts" think they can roll into town and raise money for such a project when Marineland has had its own share of funding issues over its life, and its the premier aquatic facility in NE Florida.
These guys are living in a fantasyland, unless Khan comes in and pulls a Bernie Marcus and gives these clown-fish 100 million. This is a dud. Build the shipyards first, show that people can stay downtown, make it a destination, wait for Balanky's project to add more residents. An aquarium is at least 4-8 years off, need lots more people downtown living.
Quote from: jaxjaguar on December 24, 2014, 12:08:54 AM
Part of their plan includes a water taxi that would take you from the museum, to the aquarium and then to the zoo. While I agree mosh is getting a little stale, I think an expansion at the current site would suffice. As it stands it could survive a few more years... Though the planetarium desperately needs to be updated.
MOSH needs a desperate upgrade.
Very nice design, no doubt done to excite potential donors. However, I have some serious doubts that they could build that for $100 million. They don't even have a $50,000 feasibility study done, so I doubt they have accurate construction/design estimates yet.
Heres an Action News Jax video link concerning the aquarium proposal.
Bold new plan for downtown aquarium
http://www.actionnewsjax.com/videos/news/bold-new-plan-for-downtown-aquarium/vC7j54/
Would be nice, we'll see.
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With an aquarium going in St. Augustine and now this one trying to get off the group downtown, I don't think the area will be able to support two aquariums.
How much money will it cost to purchase the parcel of land they want to build the aquarium? $100 million is a lot of money, but it took $250 million from the Marcus family plus an additional $40 million from corporate donors. Not to mention the land was donated by the Coca-Cola company. Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_Aquarium (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_Aquarium)
The money valuation for the Atlanta Aquarium is from 2001, which does not go as far as today.
If they want an aquarium that pulls people off the highways than they most likely need to raise $500 million.
Quote from: mtraininjax on December 24, 2014, 10:21:16 AM
QuoteSeems like a pipe dream. I was expecting something more concrete when I saw the title and most recent link. I wouldn't worry about raising $100 million just yet. Let's get the much cheaper feasibility study done first.
Did anyone read the article in the Times Union yesterday, really read it? The zoo has worked hard to raise its funding, and never had to raise, 50-60, let alone 100 million for its projects and it is the major animal center in Jacksonville. What makes these "new animal experts" think they can roll into town and raise money for such a project when Marineland has had its own share of funding issues over its life, and its the premier aquatic facility in NE Florida.
These guys are living in a fantasyland, unless Khan comes in and pulls a Bernie Marcus and gives these clown-fish 100 million. This is a dud. Build the shipyards first, show that people can stay downtown, make it a destination, wait for Balanky's project to add more residents. An aquarium is at least 4-8 years off, need lots more people downtown living.
Marineland is gone Mtraininjax, at least in everything but name. The nations FIRST marine movie studio, aquarium, research facility would have made a rare but interesting Naitonal Monument or State Park, but unfortunately, it was hacked, stabbed, pieced and parceled:
QuoteCornelius Vanderbilt Whitney who was the major stockholder of the private company opted to sell the marine park in the mid-1980s to a group of St. Augustine businessmen. With declining attendance, bad management and other issues, the group was unable to meet their loan payments and the attraction was again put on the market. Ownership change was the norm from that point.
Eventually the maintenance demands of the old park became too costly for the real estate investment group who owned it at that time. The facility began to sink into disrepair as the owners desperately sought a buyer. Finally, through a convoluted deal involving junk bonds, the property was sold. The buyers planned to build time-share condominiums on most of the ocean hammock land but were unable to bring the plan to fruition. This effort resulted in bankruptcy for the buyers. In addition, the already-strapped oceanarium had been reconfigured as a non-profit foundation as part of the sale and was responsible for its own sustenance as well as repayment of the bond issue. Needed monies were not invested in repairs, and the shabby condition of the park offended even the most loyal fans. With no direct ownership, no funding, and the financial burden of bond interest payments, employees were left to cope with equipment failures, no marketing, loss of credit, bounced paychecks, government inspections and the custodianship of the marine mammals, fish and birds. During this era, many devoted individuals and businesses contributed materials and services to help employees keep the place going. In the end, the foundation repaid the bondholders pennies on the dollar, a large part of Marineland's dolphin population was sold off to Orlando, and the current owner came in and picked up the pieces.
Hurricanes Floyd and Irene in 1999 forced the park to close for two months. In 2003, all of the park buildings west of Highway A1A were demolished leaving only the original structures along the Atlantic Ocean. In 2004, the park closed completely for renovations, and reopened on March 4, 2006.
During the renovations the original 1938 Circular Oceanarium (400,000 US gallons (1,500,000 l; 330,000 imp gal)) and Rectangular Oceanarium (450,000 US gallons (1,700,000 l; 370,000 imp gal)) were demolished. The age of the original Dolphin Show at Marineland ended as the park reopened as a hands on educational facility. Future plans for the area include a condominium development on former park lands. The rest of the old Marineland property wound up in the hands of Flagler County and now make up the River to the Sea Preserve one of the County's many parks.
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7540/15926793417_c9af6dbb5a_z.jpg)
QuoteWith an aquarium going in St. Augustine and now this one trying to get off the group downtown, I don't think the area will be able to support two aquariums.
How much money will it cost to purchase the parcel of land they want to build the aquarium? $100 million is a lot of money, but it took $250 million from the Marcus family plus an additional $40 million from corporate donors. Not to mention the land was donated by the Coca-Cola company.
First the aquarium 'in' St. Augustine is actually the most ill advised, uninspired, Dollar Store sized fish bowl since the Welatka Fish Hatchery Aquarium (Yes there really was one) The 'St. Augustine' plan is not in town, not in a walkable location (there are sidewalks if your into 10 mile hikes) @ SR16 and I-95. This is a group that had everything right at first and since that time they've been working hard to guarantee they snatch failure out of the jaws of victory. After seeing the drawing, I'm fairly confident in predicting that it will be to regional aquariums what Adventure Landing is to Disney World... and then it will?
(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8601/16086780826_9655f005fb_z.jpg)
The Jacksonville effort looks much more like the Georgia, Chattanooga or other national scale parks. Is the I've got a suspicion that there is way more money looking at this project then has been publicly announced. IMO either somebody or somebodies are telling them to push forward with all dispatch and (pardon the pun) make a splash, or these guys are the biggest carnival promoters since P. T. Barnum.
I'm surprised as to why many are so optimistic about the aquarium in St Augustine with a bad location, uninspiring design etc; Then again many in Jax (Inferiority Complex Central) love to sugarcoat everything outside of the city limits so I guess that I shouldn't be too surprised....
I'm skeptical about both. St. Augustine in terms of location and Jax in terms of cost and feasibility. However, at this point, only one is a real project. The other is an unfunded dream at this point in time.
^^^True.
Quote from: thelakelander on December 23, 2014, 11:20:43 PM
Seems like a pipe dream. I was expecting something more concrete when I saw the title and most recent link. I wouldn't worry about raising $100 million just yet. Let's get the much cheaper feasibility study done first.
+1
Lake are you interested in doing a kayak RICO loop in our NEW yet to be voted on CRA/DIA zone from the Fuller Warren to the Mathews Bridge? We can check out the new concrete on the Southbank. Throw in some Environmental Ethics- Vince Seibold. Seriously.
Quote from: thelakelander on December 26, 2014, 07:34:30 PM
I'm skeptical about both. St. Augustine in terms of location and Jax in terms of cost and feasibility. However, at this point, only one is a real project. The other is an unfunded dream at this point in time.
I'd be surprised if the one in St Augustine ends up anything more than a marginal, disappointing tourist destination and occasionally field trip stop.
And I am with everyone else that says this Jacksonville is unrealistic. Would be nice to, at some point, get something tangible for that space.
QuoteReaders debate an aquarium for downtown Jacksonville along the river
An idea to place an aquarium downtown, perhaps at the old Shipyards property, continues to be floated by a group of dedicated citizens.
But would this attraction be feasible financially? That was the subject of a recent news story in the Times-Union that noted it would take about $50,000 to fund a professional study to explore the viability here. A related proposal involves placing the USS Charles Adams on the downtown waterfront.
So we asked members of our Email Interactive Group for their comments. It seems a few of them are big aquarium buffs, having visited them nationally and worldwide.
QuoteCOMPARE TO CHARLESTON
I moved to Jacksonville from Charleston in 1976. I love my ancestral home but I feel Jacksonville has so much more to offer.
Charleston figured out who she was when I was a child and began building herself as a destination city. Jacksonville needs to see herself as the beautiful, historic city that she is and build on that.
Charleston recently opened an aquarium in an area similar to the shipyards. This has expanded tourism and local business.
Jacksonville should take a lesson from Charleston. Build the aquarium and work together to develop tourism as a city rather than promoting single events. The river, beaches and sports complex alone contribute to Jacksonville's huge potential.
However, potential without a plan is merely a daydream. Cooperation toward a greater goal is key.
Amelia Gaillard, West Beaches
WAITING ON THE TOOTH FAIRY?
Jacksonville doesn't have $50,000 to do the study yet wants to build something that costs $100 million?
The plan is to raise $60 million and float a bond issue for the remaining $40 million.
Who are you kidding when you say that the $40 million will not cost the taxpayer anything?
Interest has to be paid on that $40 million bond issue and it will have to be paid by the city of Jacksonville.
The tooth fairy doesn't pay the interest. The only source that Jacksonville has to pay it is income from the taxpayers.
Charles Moore, Jacksonville
LEAVE TAXPAYERS OUT OF IT
As long as taxpayers don't have to foot the bill, if someone wants to build an aquarium downtown it sounds OK to me.
However one of the best ideas I have ever heard for helping downtown would be to build a hanging botanical garden underneath the skyway express. I believe if it was done correctly, it could turn a multi-million dollar fiasco into a unique beautiful environmentally friendly attraction. Because of its uniqueness, it would certainly get a lot more positive publicity than one more city with an aquarium.
Don Kirk, Yulee
Full article: http://jacksonville.com/opinion/editorials/2015-01-02/story/readers-debate-aquarium-downtown
Amen to Amelia Gaillard's post and quote.
At 150,000 sq ft, I am concerned about the size. That's 100,000 sq ft smaller than the Florida Aquarium, unless they want a lot of outdoor exhibits... In any case, the much cheaper feasibility study should definitely come first.
What is the point of this discussion? The aquarium folks have absolutely no money and no financial backers. The mayor has a long downtown wish list with nothing remotely close to being approved by City Council. The city has no money, and the mayor refuses to raise revenue. The City Council refuses to tap debt reserves for anything. Nothing, and I mean nothing is going on downtown that isn't privately funded.
This is all about one thing: What does Shad want? Shad promised a plan by the beginning of the football season, then by the end of the year, and now it appears to be whenever he feels like it. IF Shad wants an aquarium, he will have one. If he doesn't want an aquarium, there won't be one.
There is nothing happening downtown on a large scale. Why spend time fantasizing about it? We are hostages of Shad Khan and victims of a do nothing city government.
Shad did announce his plan. He said the full unveil will occur after the city remidiates the shipyards and finds someone to complete Berkman II.... but since the city can't/won't spend any money, it's not going to happen. Don't hold your breath for any major downtown developments. Jax is a "study now develop never" city.
Khan hasn't announced his plan beyond saying he's still interested and something will be announced at some future point. Whatever it is would take a lot of involvement from the city, and we know how that goes with our current "leadership" in City Hall.
I would expect an announcement from Khan in about 4-6 weeks
I don't see Khan announcing until after the mayoral election. Unless he is 100% sure that Brown can beat Curry.
Quote from: mtraininjax on January 13, 2015, 06:10:52 AM
I don't see Khan announcing until after the mayoral election. Unless he is 100% sure that Brown can beat Curry.
you don't think it is part of Brown's strategy?...but yes, maybe the announcement waits until the latter days of the runoff
Quote from: mtraininjax on January 13, 2015, 06:10:52 AM
I don't see Khan announcing until after the mayoral election. Unless he is 100% sure that Brown can beat Curry.
Just curious. Why do you think Khan needs Brown? Do you assume that Curry is anti-downtown?
At first I did not think that $100 million would be enough money to build an aquarium here in Jacksonville. But judging from how much the South Carolina Aquarium in Charleston and the Tennessee Aquarium in Chattanooga cost, I think we could build a respectable aquarium here in Jacksonville for a little more than $100 million. I have provided the links to where I pulled the information and used a Purchasing Power Calculator (http://www.buyupside.com/calculators/purchasepowerjan08.htm (http://www.buyupside.com/calculators/purchasepowerjan08.htm)) to determine today's dollar value.
South Carolina Aquarium cost $69 million to build in 1995 dollars or $107.3 million in today's money.
Source http://scaquarium.org/media-information/ (http://scaquarium.org/media-information/)
Georgia Aquarium cost $290 million to build (not including land) in 2002 dollars or $381.9 million today in today's money.
Source http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_Aquarium (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_Aquarium)
Tennessee Aquarium cost $45 million to build in 1992 dollars or $76 million in today's money.
Source http://savannahnow.com/stories/112101/LOCaquarium.shtml (http://savannahnow.com/stories/112101/LOCaquarium.shtml)
Construction and other costs maybe higher/lower here than in SC, GA, or TN but using the base numbers seem to show a viable goal. I do believe that public funds should not be used, it should all be private donations through businesses and citizenry.
I like the idea of some sort of water taxi service between the aquarium and zoo (it should be run by aquarium/zoo and not the city) as a great tie-in between the two attractions.
If no public funds are used, I do not see why any elected city official would be opposed to having an aquarium downtown. And to be honest, I'd rather have an aquarium than a convention center (new or current).
Thank-you Buforddawg for replying, you obviously did your homework. Yours is about the only intelligent response in this blog
This is the biggest issue with the city of Jacksonville and that is its citizens. They are never happy, they are mad because we have nothing here, but when a group tries to do something. They shut it down.
With the proven success of aquariums in other cities why wouldn't it work here?
These figures are from 2013
TOP AQUARIUMS
The most-visited aquariums in the United States with 2013 attendance:
1. Georgia Aquarium, Atlanta, 2,200,000
2. John G. Shedd Aquarium, Chicago, 2,020,000
3. Monterey Bay Aquarium, Monterey, Calif., 1,976,944
4. Aquarium of the Pacific, Long Beach, Calif., 1,500,000
5. Steinhart Aquarium, San Francisco, 1,400,000
6. National Aquarium, Baltimore, 1,300,000
7. New England Aquarium, Boston, 1,299,405
8. Ripley's Aquarium, Myrtle Beach, S.C., 1,000,000
9. Ripley's Aquarium of the Smokies, Gatlinburg,Tenn., 1,000,000
10. Tennessee Aquarium, Chattanooga, Tenn., 946,910
11. Shark Reef Aquarium at Mandalay Bay, Las Vegas, 915,000
12. Adventure Aquarium, Camden, N.J., 852,821
13. Seattle Aquarium, 802,802
14. Mystic Aquarium, Mystic, Conn., 750,000
15. Audubon Aquarium of the Americas, New Orleans, 728,958
16. Florida Aquarium, Tampa, 697,958
17. Newport Aquarium, Newport, Ky., 684,742
18. Dallas World Aquarium, Dallas, 651,976
19. Virginia Aquarium & Marine Science Center, Virginia Beach, 620,949
20. Aquarium of the Bay, San Francisco, 600,000
Source: Association of Zoos and Aquariums
If you want Jacksonville to change, get off your rear and support something that will be the game changer for the city? Stop flapping your lips and do something
Quote from: Buforddawg on January 13, 2015, 05:16:00 PM
If no public funds are used, I do not see why any elected city official would be opposed to having an aquarium downtown. And to be honest, I'd rather have an aquarium than a convention center (new or current).
I doubt many would be against a private entity spending $100 million of their own money on an attraction. Aquarium, water park, mall, convention center, whatever.
Quote from: Buforddawg on January 13, 2015, 05:16:00 PM
Tennessee Aquarium cost $45 million to build in 1992 dollars or $76 million in today's money.
I visited the Tennessee Aquarium this past weekend. It was acceptable quality to blow 2-3 hours. It was, however, a HORRIBLE value. $27 for an adult and really not even in the same league as the Georgia Aquarium.
I don't mind a small lower-cost aquarium, but it needs to have a good price point and interesting layout. The best example of this that I can think of is SeaLife Aquarium in Brighton, UK. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SoffWXjTEpU It would be awesome to have one big tank with a tunnel underneath and viewing area/shows above, Big touch tank section, and lots of smaller sections on the way to these two things.
Brighton has got to have half of the tank space/sea life as Chattanooga, but we spent the same amount of time at each and much preferred the experience in Brighton. I don't think we need to have a big time Georgia Aquarium type deal. Give me a well-designed, well-planned medium sized aquarium for $15/person and I think we've got a winner.
^Btw, the Tennessee Aquarium has undergone a major expansion since 1992. It's also not the only reason DT Chattanooga has come back. Several attractions and improvements were implemented as a part of a coordinated plan to breathe life back into DT. The aquarium was just one of them.
Aquarium part of the new museum of science coming to downtown Miami
http://www.local10.com/news/groundwork-set-for-aquarium-at-frost-museum/30359816
Quote from: InnerCityPressure on January 14, 2015, 12:04:26 AM
Quote from: Buforddawg on January 13, 2015, 05:16:00 PM
Tennessee Aquarium cost $45 million to build in 1992 dollars or $76 million in today's money.
I visited the Tennessee Aquarium this past weekend. It was acceptable quality to blow 2-3 hours. It was, however, a HORRIBLE value. $27 for an adult and really not even in the same league as the Georgia Aquarium.
I don't mind a small lower-cost aquarium, but it needs to have a good price point and interesting layout. The best example of this that I can think of is SeaLife Aquarium in Brighton, UK. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SoffWXjTEpU It would be awesome to have one big tank with a tunnel underneath and viewing area/shows above, Big touch tank section, and lots of smaller sections on the way to these two things.
Brighton has got to have half of the tank space/sea life as Chattanooga, but we spent the same amount of time at each and much preferred the experience in Brighton. I don't think we need to have a big time Georgia Aquarium type deal. Give me a well-designed, well-planned medium sized aquarium for $15/person and I think we've got a winner.
Check out this article http://www.timesfreepress.com/news/news/story/2012/apr/29/aquarium-changed-cityscape-attitudes/76673/, the city of Chattanooga totally owes the credit to the Aquarium
That's not what the mayor says. A few months ago, as a part of a Next City Vanguard conference hosted by Chattanooga, I listened to him and other influential people involved with that city's revitalization give a detailed explanation of how they turned their community around. Even got a tour of some of the other attractions. I would personally hate for this city to invest millions in an aquarium, convention center or any other single thing, with the belief that one move would be the game changer that turns downtown around. In reality, urban revitalization doesn't really work that way. I wrote about it a few months ago. Here's a link and a few images:
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2014-may-exploring-chattanooga-vanguard-style
So this isn't to say an aquarium can't be a success. You just shouldn't pin all your revitalization hopes and dreams to one expensive project. If you really want to turn things around, it probably makes more sense to take that $100 million and invest it on 50 smaller coordinated projects that when combined, create walkable atmosphere that people want to live, work and play in.
Quote from: thelakelander on January 14, 2015, 10:38:54 AM
That's not what the mayor says. A few months ago, as a part of a Next City Vanguard conference hosted by Chattanooga, I listened to him and others influential people involved with that city's revitalization give a detailed explanation of how they turned their community around. Even got a tour of some of the other attractions. I would personally hate for this city to invest millions in an aquarium, convention center or any other single thing, with the belief that one move would be the game changer that turns downtown around. In reality, urban revitalization doesn't really work that way. I wrote about it a few months ago. Here's a link and images:
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2014-may-exploring-chattanooga-vanguard-style
So this isn't to say an aquarium can't be a success. You just shouldn't pin all your revitalization hopes and dreams to one expensive project. If you really want to turn things around, it probably makes more sense to take that $100 million and invest it on a 50 smaller coordinated projects that when combined, create walkable atmosphere that people want to live, work and play in.
I was also there, and can confirm this 100%.
Additionally, I went on a one-on-one walking tour of MLK Blvd (from downtown to UTC) with a few staffers from the Chatanooga's Mayor's office (as I was comparing that same corridor to a remarkably similar project that I had the good fortune of working on a few years earlier.. and also enjoying some excellent fried chicken at Champys)... and I asked them about the mayor's talking points from a few days earlier (confidentially, whether that was all just BS smoke being blown or not) and they were 100% behind his statements (and gave many examples to back this up). Besides their own words, when you looked at the coordination of surrounding uses and the detail to context in all of the design guidelines they did downtown... it's pretty clear that the aquariam wasn't done in a vacuum... and leaders of Chatanooga didnt just get an aquariam, closed their eyes and waited for the one trick pony to save the city when they all went to bed that night. In fact, I got to town a day before Lakelander did and was texting him the very same things as I was walking around that day and talking to local business owners.
QuoteStop flapping your lips and do something
The cynicism displayed with this aqauarium idea being floated probably has a lot to do with the fact that there has been an almost year-long media blitz being done... and no money raised. Ironically, that's the definition of 'lip flapping'.
Great so how much can Aqua Jax put you down for, for donating? Everyone here wants some other group to pay for it? That a white knight with a huge check book is going to pay for it...How about people donate their own money to make it happen
Quote from: jake_jax on January 14, 2015, 01:05:44 PM
Great so how much can Aqua Jax put you down for, for donating? Everyone here wants some other group to pay for it? That a white knight with a huge check book is going to pay for it...How about people donate their own money to make it happen
Here is the link to help donate http://www.aquajax.net/give/
QuoteGreat so how much can Aqua Jax put you down for, for donating? Everyone here wants some other group to pay for it? That a white knight with a huge check book is going to pay for it...How about people donate their own money to make it happen
You're barking up the wrong tree if you are directing that towards me, sport ;)
Quote from: jake_jax on January 14, 2015, 01:05:44 PM
Great so how much can Aqua Jax put you down for, for donating? Everyone here wants some other group to pay for it? That a white knight with a huge check book is going to pay for it...How about people donate their own money to make it happen
That ain't gonna work. The USS Adams guys have been trying to raise $4 million for the past 7 years and they still aren't there yet. And you think community donors can raise $100,000,000??? The fact is it will either take public debt or that elusive white knight to get the aquarium off the ground. Lip flapping is right.
At least the Adams Group is trying to bring a family attraction to Jacksonville, its been a long battle for them but it looks like they are nearing the finish line. The Aqua Jax Group is at least trying to bring an Aquarium here.
I am sure you have donated to the Adams Group or campaigned for them as well? The only person that is lip flapping is you
Quote from: jake_jax on January 14, 2015, 01:05:44 PM
Great so how much can Aqua Jax put you down for, for donating? Everyone here wants some other group to pay for it? That a white knight with a huge check book is going to pay for it...How about people donate their own money to make it happen
I won't donate because I could care less if it happens or not. Regardless, it's not the "thing" that's going to breathe life and activity back into the urban core. Come with a comprehensive plan like Chattanooga or Delaney's BJP, that happens to include an attractive large fish tank and I'd be willing to have my taxes raised to contribute.
Quote from: jake_jax on January 14, 2015, 02:10:47 PM
At least the Adams Group is trying to bring a family attraction to Jacksonville, its been a long battle for them but it looks like they are nearing the finish line. The Aqua Jax Group is at least trying to bring an Aquarium here.
I am sure you have donated to the Adams Group or campaigned for them as well? The only person that is lip flapping is you
As a matter of fact I have donated to the Adams group. Quite extensively. And I applaud the aquarium people. I just said it won't work unless there is city debt or a white knight.
Quote from: jake_jax on January 14, 2015, 02:10:47 PM
At least the Adams Group is trying to bring a family attraction to Jacksonville, its been a long battle for them but it looks like they are nearing the finish line. The Aqua Jax Group is at least trying to bring an Aquarium here.
I am sure you have donated to the Adams Group or campaigned for them as well? The only person that is lip flapping is you
See this is the problem mindset. The idea that only large scale big projects can make downtown a place to come. A lot of people here have the right opinion that smaller changes coupled with spreading investment dollars to several mid-sized projects is the way to go. That's why a lot have pushed for first floor retail in parking garages, and small scale events to give life to downtown. Neither are nearly as sexy as a bright light aquarium, but both are infinitely more real, and represent actual progress that are proven in other cities.
I agree completely. But I would categorize the Adams as small ball at only $4 million.
QuoteRegardless, it's not the "thing" that's going to breathe life and activity back into the urban core. Come with a comprehensive plan like Chattanooga or Delaney's BJP, that happens to include an attractive large fish tank and I'd be willing to have my taxes raised to contribute.
Agreed.
What you are glossing over is that in Chattanooga... there was an EXTENSIVE community-wide effort to change not only Chattanooga's polluted image, but also to revitilize their entire waterfront (Ross Landing, Walnut Street Bridge, Coolidge Park, Renaissance Park) and city core (Miller Plaza) along with a highly coordinated funding of complementary uses and highly structured contextually sensitive guidelines... that not only had thousands of citizens advocates behind it and extensive use of public bonding.. but also a large sum of money from the Lindhurst Foundation, and the corresponding private corporation formed called River Valley Partners (a good chunk of their funding came from Lindhurst) to build private complementary uses (multi-family buildings, hotels, restaurants, etc) to support a place that people would want to live and visit.
It wasn't just the aquariam... it was an extensive, comprehensive process driven by a large swath of Chatanooga citizens, large chunks of money from two major foundations, public money, the unquestionable buy-in of elected officials(over many administrations), taxpayer money, comprehensive and iron-clad land use policies that conformed to a community vision and a private company spun off (funded by very wealthy individuals) solely to invest in uses that would support tourism and commerce... and while all that was going on, elected officials and the Chamber were also making major efforts to bring high-quality manufacturing jobs back to the city... and on top of that, the publicly owned utility brought the Gig into the city, which helped spawn a burgeoning startup community (tech firms in Chattanooga actually rent employees from other cities for 6-8 month contracts because there is such a shortage of qualified coders, for example).
In fact, using Chattanooga to prove your point is about as far off as you can get.
Wow. Think about that, and then think about Jacksonville leadership. Depressing.
Quote from: jake_jax on January 14, 2015, 02:10:47 PM
The only person that is lip flapping is you
I will take a moment to flap my lips and thank fieldafm for all his dedication and hard work for this city. Thanks for the Night Trolleys, thanks for the Jaxsons Night Market, thanks for the Cash Mobs, thanks for the numerous food truck events, and thanks for all the advocacy. I'm sure I missed some things but those are the highlights. Much respect for actually tangibly improving this city.
A combination of small and large scale projects would be ideal(duh)!! Sometimes I think people that have great ideas and presentations or developers who would love to see a project come to fruition see the incredible amount of cynicism and negativity coming from some people in this city and simply say I am not dealing with this shit and walk away!! I am sick and tired of watching other towns and cities take that bold step required and actually do something to reinvent and reenergize their downtowns while the people that run this city continually sit on the sidelines. If someone is going to invest in our DT then he needs to see that there are people that share the same vision. I am certainly not saying that we should just roll over and accept every project that comes down the pipeline but all of the naysaying gets a little old. I always defend Jville tooth and nail but it does seem like a lot of the criticism that comes from outside sources (Orlando,Tampa, Miami etc) is mostly justified. So frustrating as a native to just see us flounder around while other cities around us roll forward. I do see changes happening I guess my patience just gets tested at times!! lol #904forlife
^^ Hang in there.
No shame. We tend on this forum to produce and ingest criticism, and it is a tough pill to swallow. This is a group of professionals who have seen better things, and understandably want these things for their hometown.
Look at it as goal-setting and coaching, not debilitating or insulting.
Jax is a great place to live or we wouldn't be here.
The group has secured the funding for a feasibility study
http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2015/02/19/planned-downtown-jacksonville-aquarium-secures.html
I heard that Miami's Seaquarium is overshadowed down there (looking on the facebook comments). If so, that is very concerning for Jax, given that Miami is a top tourist destination. I'm still not sold about the feasibility of an aquarium in Jax. Many people on MJ are very knowledgeable and well traveled. I encourage people to not sugarcoat (attractions/transit etc) what is going on in other cities. There are a very few that do not sugarcoat attractions in other cities, props to them.
Quote from: jaxjaguar on December 24, 2014, 12:08:54 AM
Quote from: Marle Brando on December 23, 2014, 11:06:26 PM
I am totally blown away by the design of the building! No complaints here as it does scream iconic for sure. Only wishing somehow $100 million will rain down from the heavens, almost seems to be far fetched. But while they are at it, I would strongly suggest partnering with MOSH and add a new museum as part of the overall plan. Not only would this increase attendance for both respectively as they will feed off and into each other, it would also give Jax condensed educational/entertainment center. Combine this with an included children's museum that currently sits nearby and you have a win all across the board. My strong recommendation would be for Aquajax, JaxZoo, and MOSH to make one full collaborative effort on a single vision.
Part of their plan includes a water taxi that would take you from the museum, to the aquarium and then to the zoo. While I agree mosh is getting a little stale, I think an expansion at the current site would suffice. As it stands it could survive a few more years... Though the planetarium desperately needs to be updated.
Does anyone else feel sorry for the Baltimore guys that got kicked out of Jacksonville 2014-412? No river pass for you.
Stay positive.
Quote from: Noone on February 20, 2015, 02:09:58 AM
Quote from: jaxjaguar on December 24, 2014, 12:08:54 AM
Quote from: Marle Brando on December 23, 2014, 11:06:26 PM
I am totally blown away by the design of the building! No complaints here as it does scream iconic for sure. Only wishing somehow $100 million will rain down from the heavens, almost seems to be far fetched. But while they are at it, I would strongly suggest partnering with MOSH and add a new museum as part of the overall plan. Not only would this increase attendance for both respectively as they will feed off and into each other, it would also give Jax condensed educational/entertainment center. Combine this with an included children's museum that currently sits nearby and you have a win all across the board. My strong recommendation would be for Aquajax, JaxZoo, and MOSH to make one full collaborative effort on a single vision.
Part of their plan includes a water taxi that would take you from the museum, to the aquarium and then to the zoo. While I agree mosh is getting a little stale, I think an expansion at the current site would suffice. As it stands it could survive a few more years... Though the planetarium desperately needs to be updated.
Does anyone else feel sorry for the Baltimore guys that got kicked out of Jacksonville 2014-412? No river pass for you.
Stay positive.
I guess not since no one had responded to the multiple iterations of the same question you've been spamming all over the forums.
Quote from: acme54321 on February 20, 2015, 06:53:04 AM
Quote from: Noone on February 20, 2015, 02:09:58 AM
Does anyone else feel sorry for the Baltimore guys that got kicked out of Jacksonville 2014-412? No river pass for you.
Stay positive.
I guess not since no one had responded to the multiple iterations of the same question you've been spamming all over the forums.
Was thinking the same thing.
seriously. Noone asks that question on every thread...
http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2015-02-28/story/group-raises-enough-money-hire-firm-determine-whether-aquarium-can#gsc.tab=0
QuoteGeorge Harrell, who's been working on the project for several years, said the $53,000 needed for the study came from Jaguars owner Shad Khan; former Jaguars owners Wayne and Delores Weaver; Gary Chartrand, executive chairman of Acosta, and his wife, Nancy; Wolfson Children's Hospital; and the Jacksonville Zoo and Gardens.
^ Also worth noting from that article is that, if an aquarium is built, it would likely take over a portion of Metropolitan Park.
It looks like comments were deleted but someone using Aqua Jax's official Facebook account made several posts about opening in 2018. See where this goes.
Quote from: Murder_me_Rachel on April 24, 2015, 08:31:45 AM
I know of literally no one who has said, "You know what Jacksonville needs? An aquarium!" We have real, live awesome bodies of water between the river, intercoastal, and ocean. I'd much rather get outdoors than go visit an aquarium, personally. I dont know, something about this whole idea just seems like a waste of time and money to me.
I think an aquarium would be great for Jax.
You are right...we do have some great bodies of water around us and maybe you would rather go outdoors than to visit an aquarium...and that is your opinion. But there are many other people who do like to visit aquariums for several reasons, one being education and introducing children to see various marine life up close. That plants the seed for their future interests...maybe after visiting an aquarium they want to study marine life as a career.So it would be a great place for parents to take their kids, for school field trips and for aspiring marine biologists.
Another thing it would add is a destination/excuse for people to come to Jacksonville and start spending their discretionary income in our city. We have to start creating reasons for people to stop in Jacksonville rather than just pass through it on 95. There are many things that we can do...we just have to start doing them. We can't continue to depend on Mr. Khan and the Jags to be the only draw to Jacksonville. more and more businesses are relocating to Jax and that means that people are relocating here with their families and they are going to want to do something other than drive to the beach or drive down to Disney.
Would it really be so bad to have an aquarium in Jacksonville?
Quote from: Murder_me_Rachel on April 24, 2015, 08:31:45 AM
...something about this whole idea just seems like a waste of time and money to me.
Agreed. There are plenty of them already (especially in Florida): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aquaria_in_the_United_States
Nobody is going to come to Jacksonville just to visit an aquarium. Might they visit if they're already here? Perhaps, but I think there are better ways to enliven downtown.
I completely disagree with the naysayers. If they build something worth visiting and that has a unique attraction people will come.
It would be excellent to tie MOSH, the zoo and the aquarium together. I believe it would be a great way to showcase the river both via ferry's between locations and through tanks housing local wildlife. The biggest issue with Jacksonville's waterways is all of the silt in the water. The closest spings with clear water are nearly 2 hours away.
This could be an opportunity to teach people about what they can't see in the murky waters around them. It could spur a movement to help further protect what we have.
If AquaJax could get someone like Guy Harvey to endorse their project I could see droves of people coming to visit. Especially since they want to be the first aquarium in the would to house sail finned fish.
Quote from: jaxjaguar on April 24, 2015, 10:09:55 AM
I completely disagree with the naysayers. If they build something worth visiting and that has a unique attraction people will come.
An aquarium is not a unique attraction. There are more than 100 in the US, and more than a dozen in Florida. Where will people come from? Certainly not from or beyond Tampa, Orlando, or Atlanta, which all have big aquariums. So, the population you are looking at is almost literally just the Jacksonville metro area. No one, literally no one, will come to Jax specifically
for an aquarium. They might go to the aquarium if they are already in town, but even that is probably a stretch. What do people come to Jax for? Golfing, the beach, or business. Not much in the way of urban exploring or sightseeing.
Plus, we've already got one prison on Bay Street. Why do we need another (hey-o treehugger!!)?
An aquarium is just as unique as a Waffle House or strip mall in the south. We're in for a rude awakening if we believe millions of out of town guest will visit Jax annually specifically to visit an aquarium.
An aquarium alone would certainly fail, yes. I'm speaking specifically to have it incorporated with everything that's planned for the shipyards (USS Adams, shopping, hotels, businesses, sports facilities, parks, etc). None of those things would be successful on their own, but together they can make a vibrant bustling place to attract visitors.
The aquarium is only a piece of the puzzle.
Quote from: jaxjaguar on April 24, 2015, 01:08:31 PM
The aquarium is only a piece of the puzzle.
I agree. I don't think that an aquarium alone is gonna do it, but coupled with other new projects in a close proximity it is an added destination.
The puzzle isn't so much about new gimmicks to lure tourist downtown. It's really about fixing what's stopping the natural market from taking over. Mostly, the non-sexy stuff. Clean, multimodal streets, reliable transit options, great public spaces, schools, preservation, making sure everything is seamless at the pedestrian scale level, etc. Once we figure out how to address our basics, just about everything else will take care of itself.
Quote from: PeeJayEss on April 24, 2015, 11:48:40 AM
Quote from: jaxjaguar on April 24, 2015, 10:09:55 AM
I completely disagree with the naysayers. If they build something worth visiting and that has a unique attraction people will come.
An aquarium is not a unique attraction. There are more than 100 in the US, and more than a dozen in Florida. Where will people come from? Certainly not from or beyond Tampa, Orlando, or Atlanta, which all have big aquariums. So, the population you are looking at is almost literally just the Jacksonville metro area. No one, literally no one, will come to Jax specifically for an aquarium. They might go to the aquarium if they are already in town, but even that is probably a stretch. What do people come to Jax for? Golfing, the beach, or business. Not much in the way of urban exploring or sightseeing.
Plus, we've already got one prison on Bay Street. Why do we need another (hey-o treehugger!!)?
It's also worth noting that Tampa's aquarium wouldn't survive without million dollar annual subsidies from the city.
Hmmm.....I ended up googling this.... Here's what popped up:
QuoteEditorial: On 20th anniversary, Florida Aquarium keeps aiming higher
Twenty years after its opening, the Florida Aquarium is refining its identity and enhancing its reputation as its neighborhood in downtown Tampa prepares for a similar transformation. This anniversary is a good time to mark the aquarium's progress and its tremendous potential as Tampa's downtown waterfront continues to grow.
The aquarium opened in 1995 with unrealistic expectations about the number of visitors it would attract and its potential to be a development magnet for the industrial wasteland in the Channel District. The facility worked through the lean years and the early stages when Ybor City's rebirth began to throw a trickle of visitors to the eastern side of downtown. But now it stands as the cornerstone of an upstart residential hub, inside a neighborhood that sports new condos, restaurants, parks and cultural attractions. The aquarium is no longer a lonely sentry on the downtown outpost, but a charter member of a new and exciting community that is about to undergo a billion-dollar makeover.
Taxpayers still spend about $7 million per year on debt service for construction, but the annual operating subsidy has been cut from $1 million a year to $430,000 this year. Still, the aquarium has grown into a signature attraction, drawing close to 13 million visitors since it opened, educating hundreds of thousands of students, serving as a care center for injured sea life and working to promote public awareness of conservation. President and CEO Thom Stork suggests the aquarium's attendance could grow from 750,000 a year to 1 million a year within five years.
Full article: http://www.tampabay.com/opinion/editorials/editorial-on-20th-anniversary-florida-aquarium-keeps-aiming-higher/2222226
Quote from: thelakelander on April 24, 2015, 02:00:12 PM
The puzzle isn't so much about new gimmicks to lure tourist downtown. It's really about fixing what's stopping the natural market from taking over. Mostly, the non-sexy stuff. Clean, multimodal streets, reliable transit options, great public spaces, schools, preservation, making sure everything is seamless at the pedestrian scale level, etc. Once we figure out how to address our basics, just about everything else will take care of itself.
+1
I'm fine having an aquarium on the list of things we want, but I'd put it as a nice-to-have, not a must-have. Something I'd prefer to see in the short term for that area would be to have Metro Park add in the kinds of things we're seeing in Hemming Park. Then take the portions of the Shipyards (after cleanup, of course) that aren't being developed right away, and make it a requirement that rather than leaving them as construction-sites-in-waiting, carve out some nice temporary park spaces that provide a connection between Metro Park and downtown that doesn't involve the sidewalks on Bay Street. A nice stretch of connected parks along the river would probably be a nice (and hopefully low cost) draw.
Quote from: thelakelander on April 24, 2015, 02:00:12 PM
The puzzle isn't so much about new gimmicks to lure tourist downtown. It's really about fixing what's stopping the natural market from taking over. Mostly, the non-sexy stuff. Clean, multimodal streets, reliable transit options, great public spaces, schools, preservation, making sure everything is seamless at the pedestrian scale level, etc. Once we figure out how to address our basics, just about everything else will take care of itself.
I find
most of that stuff quite sexy. ;)
QuoteAn aquarium is just as unique as a Waffle House or strip mall in the south. We're in for a rude awakening if we believe millions of out of town guest will visit Jax annually specifically to visit an aquarium.
+1
Quote from: thelakelander on April 24, 2015, 04:44:36 PM
Hmmm.....I ended up googling this.... Here's what popped up:
QuoteEditorial: On 20th anniversary, Florida Aquarium keeps aiming higher
Twenty years after its opening, the Florida Aquarium is refining its identity and enhancing its reputation as its neighborhood in downtown Tampa prepares for a similar transformation. This anniversary is a good time to mark the aquarium's progress and its tremendous potential as Tampa's downtown waterfront continues to grow.
The aquarium opened in 1995 with unrealistic expectations about the number of visitors it would attract and its potential to be a development magnet for the industrial wasteland in the Channel District. The facility worked through the lean years and the early stages when Ybor City's rebirth began to throw a trickle of visitors to the eastern side of downtown. But now it stands as the cornerstone of an upstart residential hub, inside a neighborhood that sports new condos, restaurants, parks and cultural attractions. The aquarium is no longer a lonely sentry on the downtown outpost, but a charter member of a new and exciting community that is about to undergo a billion-dollar makeover.
Taxpayers still spend about $7 million per year on debt service for construction, but the annual operating subsidy has been cut from $1 million a year to $430,000 this year. Still, the aquarium has grown into a signature attraction, drawing close to 13 million visitors since it opened, educating hundreds of thousands of students, serving as a care center for injured sea life and working to promote public awareness of conservation. President and CEO Thom Stork suggests the aquarium's attendance could grow from 750,000 a year to 1 million a year within five years.
Full article: http://www.tampabay.com/opinion/editorials/editorial-on-20th-anniversary-florida-aquarium-keeps-aiming-higher/2222226
Tremendous potential? 20 years in?
Potential ! ? ! Looking at a couple of their annual reports, they're also clearly getting more money from government. That 430k is just from the City of Tampa; Hillsborough County *and* their Tourism Council *and* the State of Florida are all contributing thousands of additional dollars.
From the purview of local and state governments, something of a modified loss-leader concept introduces new activity (via roads, enterprise zones or specific businesses) to push new customers to a service, product or district in the hope of building a greater commercial base and thereby securing future recurring revenue for the commercial entities as well as taxable income for the local and state governments.
Right?
So, another
suburban way to read that article is through this heading:
On 20th anniversary, Florida Aquarium keeps struggling to meet initial expectations -- which is the deal with many major projects, urban *and* suburban. Projects that have to be conceptually thought through as a loss-leader activity. Whether we're talking about road projects or aquariums or whatever. Twenty years in Tampa and they are hoping, HOPING, to grow from 750k attendance per year up to 999k or more but they've averaged only 650k per year. As the article admitted, that's well below what they promised. But, still, it is a "signature" attraction and it has no doubt contributed to the billion-dollar development being undertaken in downtown Tampa.
Did they "lie" about their projected numbers (in the sense that folks are insisting lies have been used on behalf of the First Coast Expressway) in order to get the project built in their urban core, hmmmmm?
As for the Jacksonville Aquarium, arguing in our favor is the fact that Tampa doesn't have I-95 rolling through their downtown, and their river simply doesn't provide the view afforded by the Saint Johns. Put an entertainment district down on the river that has visual appeal from the interstate (aircraft carrier, marina, promenade, etc.) and you
will pull in visitors. Yes, everyone it seems has an aquarium. But people still like them and will visit them -- especially in an entertainment and event district.
Our key is to have a
premier "event" district, and luckily we already do. It's just limited to mostly sports right now. An arena, a baseball park, a bland public park, and a professional football stadium. Shad is going to fix that, I do believe. Add in a Northbank Riverwalk that extends from Memorial Park in Riverside to The Shipyards and we'll be well on our way.
Quote from: RattlerGator on April 25, 2015, 10:00:49 AM
Did they "lie" about their projected numbers (in the sense that folks are insisting lies have been used on behalf of the First Coast Expressway) in order to get the project built in their urban core, hmmmmm?
Historically, proponents tend to cook (or over-estimate) projections on iffy projects to get them built. Florida Aquarium, First Coast Expressway, JTA Skyway, etc. are all examples. Location....urban, suburban, or rural, doesn't really matter.
If I can offer an "outsider" opinion: we have selected Jax as our destination when we retire from teaching in two years. It is an awesome town to visit, and looks like a great place for us to live. However,...
Nearly every time we say to our friends that we are moving to Jacksonville, (young, old, married, single, kids, no kids,...doesn't matter) their response is, "Where is that in Florida?" Seriously, it is not a destination for any demographic. Families are going to Orlando, 20-somethings are going to the gulf coast, childless couples are going to Miami or the Keys, etc.
This is actually one of the things we like most about the area. It is a great city, with a convenient airport, great beaches, amazing recreational opportunities, lots of room to grow, etc., and yet it is not cluttered with thousand of tourists who couldn't care less about the locals' quality of life.
I am not saying don't build it; I am not saying build it. What I AM saying is, it is going to take a lot more than an aquarium to make people come to Jacksonville, especially when there are already spectacular ones within five hours of there.
^^good points, well put. I think the city will do well, however, focusing on its strong points by bringing the USS Adams to downtown. Jacksonville has a long and storied history with the Navy.
Quote from: TimmyB on April 25, 2015, 09:01:40 PM
I am not saying don't build it; I am not saying build it. What I AM saying is, it is going to take a lot more than an aquarium to make people come to Jacksonville, especially when there are already spectacular ones within five hours of there.
This line is perfect.
Why shouldn't Jacksonville get a real aquarium? The Florida Aquarium is mediocre at best, the new St Augustine Aquarium is only 8,000 sq feet...uuuummm thats the size of a PetSmart. The State of Florida does not have a real aquarium, some of the arguments I have read make me laugh. The Tennessee Aquarium in Chattanooga gets almost 1 Million Visitors a year and the Georgia Aquarium is 90 miles from it. We have 88 Million cars drive right by Jacksonville on I-95 a year, you are telling me that people wouldnt stop and visit a real aquarium in Jacksonville? Yes I agree Downtown needs more than an Aquarium and a USS Adams Museum. But its a great start to a new Downtown. Jacksonville needs more enticement then what we currently have. Did you know the Jacksonville Zoo has the largest attendance of any attraction in North Florida? You could sell out Everbank Field for every home game and the Zoo would still have a greater attendance. So I guess cities like Atlanta, Baltimore, Charleston, Corpus Christi, Dallas etc. havent benefited from an aquarium in their cities...The residents of JACKSONVILLE are never happy, they bitch that their is nothing here and then they bitch when something does happen.
^^ "Hey, Honey, let's go drive 5 hours to see an aquarium.", said no one, ever.
Quote from: jake_jax on April 27, 2015, 09:19:32 AM
Why shouldn't Jacksonville get a real aquarium? The Florida Aquarium is mediocre at best, the new St Augustine Aquarium is only 8,000 sq feet...uuuummm thats the size of a PetSmart. The State of Florida does not have a real aquarium, some of the arguments I have read make me laugh. The Tennessee Aquarium in Chattanooga gets almost 1 Million Visitors a year and the Georgia Aquarium is 90 miles from it. We have 88 Million cars drive right by Jacksonville on I-95 a year, you are telling me that people wouldnt stop and visit a real aquarium in Jacksonville? Yes I agree Downtown needs more than an Aquarium and a USS Adams Museum. But its a great start to a new Downtown. Jacksonville needs more enticement then what we currently have. Did you know the Jacksonville Zoo has the largest attendance of any attraction in North Florida? You could sell out Everbank Field for every home game and the Zoo would still have a greater attendance. So I guess cities like Atlanta, Baltimore, Charleston, Corpus Christi, Dallas etc. havent benefited from an aquarium in their cities...The residents of JACKSONVILLE are never happy, they bitch that their is nothing here and then they bitch when something does happen.
I probably travel more than the average person. I've been to every aquarium you named
(except the St. Augustine fish tank being built)......ONCE. I don't plan on going back to any. I take a ton of road trips. I stop in all those towns on a regular basis. None of my stops end up at an aquarium. Now that I've visited them one time, I'm more likely to drive straight through the town then delay my trip to look at fish swim around in circles.
Anyway, I really could care less if an aquarium is built in Jax or not. If we can pull it off....great. The more things to do in downtown, the better. My major concern would be expectations on what an aquarium can deliver (I think ours are way too high) and the ROI because public subsidies would definitely be needed to keep it afloat. The ROI would be the most telling. Once those numbers are revealed, then we can have a true debate on if investing in an aquarium is the best use of the amount of money needed to sustain it. Because at the end of the day, investing in it, means we're not investing in something else that could be just as worthwhile and important to downtown revitalization.
If it's not a fish tank like what they're building in St. Aug, but more along the lines of the Georgia Aquarium, I guarantee you people would come to see it. There is a very large community of fish keepers are teachers around the nation who are interested in this sort of thing. I, for one, was one of the hundreds of thousands who visited the Georgia Aquarium when it first opened. I went back 2 years ago to do the behind the scenes tour. Both times we made a trip of it and toured downtown Atlanta since everything is within walking / MARTA distance. I plan on making a return within the next year or two....
One of the things they did right compared to other aquariums is building something no ones else had. They didn't stop "once the job was done" though. They've continued to update sections and add new attractions, which is incentive to return.
Quote from: jaxjaguar on April 27, 2015, 10:11:35 AM
If it's not a fish tank like what they're building in St. Aug, but more along the lines of the Georgia Aquarium, I guarantee you people would come to see it. There is a very large community of fish keepers are teachers around the nation who are interested in this sort of thing. I, for one, was one of the hundreds of thousands who visited the Georgia Aquarium when it first opened. I went back 2 years ago to do the behind the scenes tour. Both times we made a trip of it and toured downtown Atlanta since everything is within walking / MARTA distance. I plan on making a return within the next year or two....
And that is my thought as well. Bring in an aquarium, the USS Adams, re-design of the Landing and any other various projects that are being talked about and we have a vibrant downtown that people can visit. I would just like to see Jax become a more thriving scene and it has to start somewhere.
^The owner of Home Depot donated $250 million for the Georgia Aquarium.
http://www.aboutnorthgeorgia.com/ang/Georgia_Aquarium
If someone in Jax is going to donate that type of cash for an aquarium, I don't think there would be any debate on seeing something built.
Quote from: menace1069 on April 27, 2015, 10:30:41 AM
Quote from: jaxjaguar on April 27, 2015, 10:11:35 AM
If it's not a fish tank like what they're building in St. Aug, but more along the lines of the Georgia Aquarium, I guarantee you people would come to see it. There is a very large community of fish keepers are teachers around the nation who are interested in this sort of thing. I, for one, was one of the hundreds of thousands who visited the Georgia Aquarium when it first opened. I went back 2 years ago to do the behind the scenes tour. Both times we made a trip of it and toured downtown Atlanta since everything is within walking / MARTA distance. I plan on making a return within the next year or two....
And that is my thought as well. Bring in an aquarium, the USS Adams, re-design of the Landing and any other various projects that are being talked about and we have a vibrant downtown that people can visit. I would just like to see Jax become a more thriving scene and it has to start somewhere.
That's great. The question is how much money will all of this (and more) take, and where does it come from? I've been in Jax for 10 years now. One thing I've noticed is that we can dream with the best of them. We just never take the next step in paying to make the dreams a reality. Since we don't have any cash and can barely maintain what we do have, we may need to find ways to initially improve the area without the big +$100 million projects.
The proposed aquarium will have nothing on the Georgia Aquarium, Shedd, Monterey Bay, etc. All of those cost $250 million or more in today's money. The $100 million price tag for the proposed aquarium puts it in line with the regional aquariums that are a dime a dozen in the South (as others have noted.)
The issue I have had with the project since it was first announced is that its being sold as a silver bullet that will cure all of downtown's ails and there is no way it can be.
Quote from: thelakelander on April 27, 2015, 09:46:09 AM
My major concern would be expectations on what an aquarium can deliver (I think ours are way too high) and the ROI because public subsidies would definitely be needed to keep it afloat. The ROI would be the most telling. Once those numbers are revealed, then we can have a true debate on if investing in an aquarium is the best use of the amount of money needed to sustain it. Because at the end of the day, investing in it, means we're not investing in something else that could be just as worthwhile and important to downtown revitalization.
I vote this guy for mayor. 8)
Quote from: jake_jax on April 27, 2015, 09:19:32 AM
The State of Florida does not have a real aquarium, some of the arguments I have read make me laugh. We have 88 Million cars drive right by Jacksonville on I-95 a year, you are telling me that people wouldnt stop and visit a real aquarium in Jacksonville?
Does Sea World not count?
What about Epcot, which housed the largest saltwater aquarium in the world until the Georgia aquarium opened?
Both just over two hours away.
No stake in the race, but it's hard to argue that Florida doesn't have a real aquarium.
Quote from: KenFSU on April 27, 2015, 11:24:08 AM
Quote from: jake_jax on April 27, 2015, 09:19:32 AM
The State of Florida does not have a real aquarium, some of the arguments I have read make me laugh. We have 88 Million cars drive right by Jacksonville on I-95 a year, you are telling me that people wouldnt stop and visit a real aquarium in Jacksonville?
Does Sea World not count?
What about Epcot, which housed the largest saltwater aquarium in the world until the Georgia aquarium opened?
Both just over two hours away.
No stake in the race, but it's hard to argue that Florida doesn't have a real aquarium.
Not to mention that the Georgia Aquarium also owns Marineland, which is about a half hour drive from downtown Jacksonville.
Quote from: FSBA on April 27, 2015, 10:53:00 AM
The proposed aquarium will have nothing on the Georgia Aquarium, Shedd, Monterey Bay, etc. All of those cost $250 million or more in today's money. The $100 million price tag for the proposed aquarium puts it in line with the regional aquariums that are a dime a dozen in the South (as others have noted.)
The issue I have had with the project since it was first announced is that its being sold as a silver bullet that will cure all of downtown's ails and there is no way it can be.
I'd be ok with that. Atlanta aquarium was average. They had the big ticket things that are on everybody's checklist. Atlanta did have a rivers exhibit, but it was a little disconnected. Bass Pro shops do a better job with highlighting local fish. Monterey was great because of the kelp bed exhibit. Tampa is great because it has the best mangrove exhibit. Big tanks with sharks, "flipper", and other ocean species are OK especially for kids that haven't been anywhere, but those specialty exhibits are way more informative. Jacksonville would be unique with marsh exhibits........or maybe a jettys fish tank.
^To be honest, I enjoyed the World of Coca-Cola better than I did the Georgia Aquarium. No chance for a World of Maxwell House? By the same token, I enjoyed the authentic Pike Place Market last week in Seattle. I skipped the aquarium and Space Needle. So, what's the place you go to for the unique Jacksonville experience?
Quote from: thelakelander on April 27, 2015, 01:42:22 PM
^To be honest, I enjoyed the World of Coca-Cola better than I did the Georgia Aquarium. No chance for a World of Maxwell House? By the same token, I enjoyed the authentic Pike Place Market last week in Seattle. I skipped the aquarium and Space Needle. So, what's the place you go to for the unique Jacksonville experience?
I think Maxwell house doesn't realize how big of a marketing move tours would be. With local craft coffee and beer consumption on the rise this would be an excellent opportunity to get coffee fanatics into your building to try unique brews (similar to world of coke). If the Budweiser plant can offer 2 free beers a day, a hospitality area and several tours/classes onsite I don't see why an addition to this facility couldn't operate in a similar manner.
Quote from: stephendare on April 27, 2015, 02:00:44 PM
Quote from: jaxjaguar on April 27, 2015, 01:59:42 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on April 27, 2015, 01:42:22 PM
^To be honest, I enjoyed the World of Coca-Cola better than I did the Georgia Aquarium. No chance for a World of Maxwell House? By the same token, I enjoyed the authentic Pike Place Market last week in Seattle. I skipped the aquarium and Space Needle. So, what's the place you go to for the unique Jacksonville experience?
I think Maxwell house doesn't realize how big of a marketing move tours would be. With local craft coffee and beer consumption on the rise this would be an excellent opportunity to get coffee fanatics into your building to try unique brews (similar to world of coke). If the Budweiser plant can offer 2 free beers a day, a hospitality area and several tours/classes onsite I don't see why an addition to this facility couldn't operate in a similar manner.
Especially with the Intuition Aleworks Brewery opening up next door to them. It would be really cool to have a joint tour.
That last part will have to wait for cannabis legalization ... :-)
Quote from: Charles Hunter on April 27, 2015, 02:07:40 PM
Quote from: stephendare on April 27, 2015, 02:00:44 PM
Quote from: jaxjaguar on April 27, 2015, 01:59:42 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on April 27, 2015, 01:42:22 PM
^To be honest, I enjoyed the World of Coca-Cola better than I did the Georgia Aquarium. No chance for a World of Maxwell House? By the same token, I enjoyed the authentic Pike Place Market last week in Seattle. I skipped the aquarium and Space Needle. So, what's the place you go to for the unique Jacksonville experience?
I think Maxwell house doesn't realize how big of a marketing move tours would be. With local craft coffee and beer consumption on the rise this would be an excellent opportunity to get coffee fanatics into your building to try unique brews (similar to world of coke). If the Budweiser plant can offer 2 free beers a day, a hospitality area and several tours/classes onsite I don't see why an addition to this facility couldn't operate in a similar manner.
Especially with the Intuition Aleworks Brewery opening up next door to them. It would be really cool to have a joint tour.
That last part will have to wait for cannabis legalization ... :-)
Do that and this is what the space formerly known as the Shipyards would end up resembling.....
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Seattle/i-xmFdWG9/0/L/DSCF5910-L.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Seattle/i-sbgTXNH/0/L/DSCF5903-L.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Seattle/i-N9pS7RL/0/XL/DSCF5899-XL.jpg)
Quote from: Charles Hunter on April 27, 2015, 02:07:40 PM
Quote from: stephendare on April 27, 2015, 02:00:44 PM
Quote from: jaxjaguar on April 27, 2015, 01:59:42 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on April 27, 2015, 01:42:22 PM
^To be honest, I enjoyed the World of Coca-Cola better than I did the Georgia Aquarium. No chance for a World of Maxwell House? By the same token, I enjoyed the authentic Pike Place Market last week in Seattle. I skipped the aquarium and Space Needle. So, what's the place you go to for the unique Jacksonville experience?
I think Maxwell house doesn't realize how big of a marketing move tours would be. With local craft coffee and beer consumption on the rise this would be an excellent opportunity to get coffee fanatics into your building to try unique brews (similar to world of coke). If the Budweiser plant can offer 2 free beers a day, a hospitality area and several tours/classes onsite I don't see why an addition to this facility couldn't operate in a similar manner.
Especially with the Intuition Aleworks Brewery opening up next door to them. It would be really cool to have a joint tour.
That last part will have to wait for cannabis legalization ... :-)
but if you didn't want to wait, that "joint tour" could turn into a tour of "the joint" (i.e. - The Jacksonville Detention Center); conveniently located by many of the aforementioned locales.
Quote from: thelakelander on April 27, 2015, 01:42:22 PM
So, what's the place you go to for the unique Jacksonville experience?
I think it's not even in Jacksonville...Downtown St Augustine. Within the city limits, I guess it's probably riding the skyway haha! If Hemming Park keeps improving and can spur more local development in its vicinity, I could see that area being the new Jax experience in the next several years. Obviously the Landing is key and it needs to once again be that centerpiece, but sadly I don't see that happening anytime soon.
AquaJax's facebook page is teasing a big announcement in the next two weeks. Anybody here know anything?
Quote from: FSBA on September 22, 2015, 08:02:15 AM
AquaJax's facebook page is teasing a big announcement in the next two weeks. Anybody here know anything?
They bought a betta fish
Quote from: FSBA on September 22, 2015, 08:02:15 AM
AquaJax's facebook page is teasing a big announcement in the next two weeks. Anybody here know anything?
Fuddruckers at the Landing.
Duh :)
Quote from: FSBA on September 22, 2015, 08:02:15 AM
AquaJax's facebook page is teasing a big announcement in the next two weeks. Anybody here know anything?
The Baltimore guys are coming back 2014-412.
QuoteStudy indicates bringing aquarium to downtown Jacksonville a possibility
The group trying to bring an aquarium to downtown Jacksonville has passed one hurdle: A feasibility study has been done showing the plan is feasible.
Now the real work begins, including raising the $100 million that will be required to build First Coast Aquarium.
"What we've done [is] a study looking [at] whether it's worth pursuing," said Robert Blais, of ConsultEcon, a Massachusetts firm that has been involved in studies and plans for thousands of aquariums, zoos and parks around the world.
"But we don't have that answer," he said. "You have the answer. What we've said is 'This is your potential if you [go with] the type of project that is reflected and the rest of the waterfront is developed.'"
The key numbers the study produced:
1 $100 million initial investment, including $85 million for the building and $15 million for animals, staff and start-up costs.
1 Mid-range attendance is projected at 1,054,451 for the first year, stabilizing at 844,000 by the third year.
1 Mid-range economic impact of $101.3 million a year.
1 Admission price would be $21.95.
Full article: http://jacksonville.com/business/2015-10-13/story/study-indicates-bringing-aquarium-downtown-jacksonville-possibility
I already went over my disinterest with having a Jax aquarium, so I'm not gonna beat that dead horse. The Portland Aquarium is gonna close. Before that was the World Aquarium in STL. Even going unique with different animals isn't the answer sometimes; Like the Georgia Aquarium have been having problems with deaths of whale sharks, beluga whales and Commerson's dolphin. In this age of PC liberalism (were sometimes animals have more value than humans seemingly) the unexpected deaths of animals could result to mass boycott, and ultimate failure like what happened in Portland and St Louis. Not to mention all of the backlash that Sea World has been getting.
http://koin.com/2016/02/15/portland-aquarium-closes-doors-monday/
http://kplr11.com/2015/09/07/world-aquarium-closing-its-doors-today/
Quote from: I-10east on February 16, 2016, 12:57:11 AM
I already went over my disinterest with having a Jax aquarium, so I'm not gonna beat that dead horse. The Portland Aquarium is gonna close. Before that was the World Aquarium in STL. Even going unique with different animals isn't the answer sometimes; Like the Georgia Aquarium have been having problems with deaths of whale sharks, beluga whales and Commerson's dolphin. In this age of PC liberalism (were sometimes animals have more value than humans seemingly) the unexpected deaths of animals could result to mass boycott, and ultimate failure like what happened in Portland and St Louis. Not to mention all of the backlash that Sea World has been getting.
http://koin.com/2016/02/15/portland-aquarium-closes-doors-monday/
http://kplr11.com/2015/09/07/world-aquarium-closing-its-doors-today/
If you read the whole article it says both those cities are opening new aquariums in other parts of the city. The Portland one outgrew the small space they had while the St. Louis one is moving to a bigger, better facility. It doesn't sound like they are closing for good.
Quote1 Mid-range attendance is projected at 1,054,451 for the first year, stabilizing at 844,000 by the third year.
The Jacksonville Zoo and Gardens has had a fifth consecutive year of record attendance. The zoo welcomed 938,000 guests in 2015. I'm guessing their numbers are a bit optimistic?
Quote from: Ocklawaha on February 16, 2016, 10:05:03 AM
Quote1 Mid-range attendance is projected at 1,054,451 for the first year, stabilizing at 844,000 by the third year.
The Jacksonville Zoo and Gardens has had a fifth consecutive year of record attendance. The zoo welcomed 938,000 guests in 2015. I'm guessing their numbers are a bit optimistic?
I dunno, Ock. My family has visited the Tampa Aquarium several times over the past decade, but we haven't been to the Zoo there once.
Quote from: CCMjax on February 16, 2016, 08:25:53 AM
If you read the whole article it says both those cities are opening new aquariums in other parts of the city. The Portland one outgrew the small space they had while the St. Louis one is moving to a bigger, better facility. It doesn't sound like they are closing for good.
I made a mistake; STL's World Aquarium reopened, but the Portland Aquarium MAY open in another location.
www.worldaquarium.net
The Portland aquarium was always a disaster. I don't think it had as much to do with it being an aquarium as much as it had to do with the people running it. They got in trouble for illegally buying marine animals and were under investigation for high death rates. I would be very, very surprised if they ever reopened in another location.
Didn't take long for the vultures to start moving in.
https://www.firstcoastnews.com/article/news/local/organization-eyes-downtown-sites-including-landing-for-future-aquarium/77-fe1733c1-0187-489a-9a72-fda795b9e005
Quote from: KenFSU on February 25, 2019, 01:34:48 PM
Didn't take long for the vultures to start moving in.
https://www.firstcoastnews.com/article/news/local/organization-eyes-downtown-sites-including-landing-for-future-aquarium/77-fe1733c1-0187-489a-9a72-fda795b9e005 (https://www.firstcoastnews.com/article/news/local/organization-eyes-downtown-sites-including-landing-for-future-aquarium/77-fe1733c1-0187-489a-9a72-fda795b9e005)
I don't blame them. If the thing's coming down anyway, why not throw a hat into the ring and give it a shot?
This definitely beats Curry's park.....
Quote from: KenFSU on February 25, 2019, 01:34:48 PM
Didn't take long for the vultures to start moving in.
https://www.firstcoastnews.com/article/news/local/organization-eyes-downtown-sites-including-landing-for-future-aquarium/77-fe1733c1-0187-489a-9a72-fda795b9e005
I am not following.
What makes them vultures exactly?
^Picking at the bones of the Landing before City Council even votes on the settlement.
Maybe they can put the aquarium in the Maxwell House plant.
In two weeks we'll see a proposal for a bigger shinier aquarium on Lot J.
Quote from: Captain Zissou on February 26, 2019, 09:26:06 AM
In two weeks we'll see a proposal for a bigger shinier aquarium on Lot J.
Until the Hart Bridge ramps come down, the manatees and USS Adams are going to have to share a tank.
Still poking along.
https://residentnews.net/2019/06/03/plans-resurface-for-downtown-aquarium/
QuoteThe estimated cost for the giant, stingray shaped attraction would be approximately $100 million
At this point, there's nothing new to update. Can't be taken real serious until finding money happens.
QuoteWithin a couple of years of the Tennessee Aquarium being built in Chattanooga, 150 new businesses opened within a one-mile radius and real estate values around the aquarium increased by 124%. The National Aquarium in Baltimore was the centerpiece of the Baltimore Harbor revitalization.
Honestly, both of these places did a ton of clustering. It's a stretch to say their aquariums are the primary drivers of their success. This is similar to a transit agency claiming the Cleveland Health Line BRT spurred billions in TOD and that constructing the same will deliver the same value to Jax.
In Jacksonville, you can just make outlandish claims and nobody second guesses you. It's easier here.
"The estimated cost for the giant, stingray shaped attraction would be approximately $100 million, and would bring with it almost 1,000 jobs and a $30.8 million payroll, touted Grant, when he spoke May 9 at the Exchange Club luncheon at River City Brewing Company."
The Monterrey Aquarium only has 520 full and part time employees with 322k square feet of exhibition space. These guys claim they will have double the amount of employees with half the exhibition space. If you want to say the facility will employ 300 people and will create 700 temporary construction jobs, sure go right ahead, but be honest.
Also, the rendering they keep showing will cost far, far more than $100 million, though perhaps construction costs will be down quite a bit when this is actually built in 2035.
If these guys actually want an aquarium built, their best bet is to partner with MOSH on their expansion plans.
I'd like to hear more from the Zoo on this front as it seems like an Aquarium is more akin to a Zoo than a museum.
Regardless, I'd love to see an Aquarium....and I'd love to see how this was funded. If this was opened in the core (not in the sports complex), but legit walkable to say, Forsyth and Laura I think it would have an unreal impact.
Honestly, the old Courthouse site wouldn't be a terrible site for it. But again, not sure where we're getting the money for this one.
^ The Frost Museum in Miami and South Florida Science Museum in West Palm Beach both have aquarium components mixed in. Short of a substantial $50 million plus donation, there is virtually no way to build a stand alone aquarium that is even regional class, let alone world class. I mean does this group even have seven figures worth of committed donations?
Barring some major unannounced donation, this group's best bet to build an aquarium is to try to co-locate at MOSH or the Zoo and pare it back to something reasonable and attainable.
Their plan is $100M. Price-wise, that seems realistic for what they want. I'd have no issue with the COJ contributing something to this, but not $100M
Such a 1990s idea. How much was the Florida Aquarium? It's 250,000 square feet. It was a money pit when I was down there. It's been around for 24 years now. I've only been once for about two hours.
Quote from: Steve on June 03, 2019, 01:57:58 PM
Their plan is $100M. Price-wise, that seems realistic for what they want. I'd have no issue with the COJ contributing something to this, but not $100M
The rendering shown will cost a whole lot more than $100 million. Especially in today's construction market. Design, engineering, entitlements, and permitting alone might be closer to 8 figures than 7. I'm fine with COJ donating one of its many empty lots and even chipping in a bit if this group actually raised big dollars. It's been five years and I don't think there's been a word about them actually securing pledges.
Shad Khan and 20 of the world most shrewd businessmen couldn't have concocted a better plan to make his Shipyards/Lot J plans look like a more sensible public investment...
Personally, I'd be more scared of the ongoing annual maintenance costs/subsidies than the price of the initial build.
Especially if the organization is basing their sustainability numbers off of a projection of 1.15 million+ visitors through the gate each year, which is patently insane.
Literally insane.
I work with an aquarium in New York City, in an area that's got to have some of the heaviest foot traffic in the country, and they don't do this type of numbers.
Not opposed to an aquarium, not opposed to the city giving up riverfront land for an aquarium, but whoever runs it better have deep pockets or else we're going to find ourselves using the general fund for trout-welfare for years to come.
What is everyone panicking about. Here is the simple funding plan.
1. City agrees to spend $100,000,000 putting dome over stadium.
2. City contributes $50,000,000 to the aquarium.
3. Khan contributes $50,000,000 to aquarium and gets 50% of all ticket sales, 75% of concessions, exclusive rights to all meeting events, and 50% of parking revenue.
4. Khan will cover all cost over runs in exchange for the City guaranteeing Khan won't lose money.
5. Construction starts next week.
I call it the Daily's Place Model.
The Aquarium is not coming anytime soon and honestly that's a good thing.
The interest group AquaJax has been a complete failure, and there is no indications of this moving forward under their guidance. AquaJax was essentially a Facebook page.
If an Aquarium were to become an actual proposal for development in the future. I would have more confidence knowing everyone associated with AquaJax was purposely left out on all of the proceedings.
Quote from: JPalmer on June 04, 2019, 09:48:58 AM
If an Aquarium were to become an actual proposal for development in the future. I would have more confidence knowing everyone associated with AquaJax was purposely left out on all of the proceedings.
I really really like this quote. Makes me want to join the AquaJax facebook page and troll super hard.