I was in Murray Hill over the weekend I was thinking a roundabout at Edgewood and Mayflower along with a dedicated Texas U-turn lane at Plymouth would really help define that part of the neighborhood. With 4 lanes of traffic along Edgewood from the train tracks to Post Road there is enough room to put Edgewood on a diet and help create a very pedestrian friendly environment to encourage some infill development.
What do you do about parking? The roundabout is going to take parking away from the location. 18-wheeler trucks that come out of Coolair will not be able to make that roundabout turn. Nice idea, but I don't see it working there. When the 1171 restaurant opens up, there will be more of a crush on parking there as well. When Fat Kat goes away and turns into something else, again, parking will be a premium issue.
Good idea, but the area is pedestrian friendly as it is, what MH needs to do is make Plymouth, the road next to the tracks a RIGHT TURN only at both sides, it is too hard to turn left from either side. Go one street north to Mayflower and use the light to make the turn.
A roundabout is not needed, but Edgewood Avenue is the poster child of a road that needs a context sensitive road diet.
Depending on the size at most 2 or 3 parking spaces would be affected and semis go through roundabouts all the time. Using a min-roundabout with a raised and textured center would still allow trucks to use the roundabout while deflecting cars. With greater infill the loss of parking spaces would be off-set by fewer people needing to drive, and a general beautification of the street will encourage people to park along other parts of Edgewood and walk.
Check out Exhibit 6-50 on page 180 of this document.
http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/publications/research/safety/00067/000676.pdf
BTW - I like the right turn only idea for Plymouth as it would open up space for the dedicated U-turn lane.
Edgewood is so wide, you could green it up, add parking, bike lanes, etc., pedestrian friendly crossings, etc. without having to acquire more ROW. I'm not sure what a roundabout achieves that you can't already get in there via a complete streets lane diet. The images below are simple lane restriping jobs. Considering Edgewood is a local street, we could do something like this virtually overnight if it were a priority.
Main Street - Pottstown, PA - Before
(http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/publications/publicroads/11septoct/images/tan1.jpg)
Main Street - Pottstown, PA - After
(http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/publications/publicroads/11septoct/images/tan2.jpg)
Stone Way North - Seattle, WA - Before
(http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/publications/publicroads/11septoct/images/tan5.jpg)
Stone Way North - Seattle, WA - After
(http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/publications/publicroads/11septoct/images/tan6.jpg)
http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/publications/publicroads/11septoct/05.cfm
Either way - would be fine with me. If it was up to me I would replace the outside lanes with parallel parking, add dedicated and protected bike lanes, and expand the sidewalk to allow space for future sidewalk cafes and the like.
Not to be an idea squasher, but a roundabout down there is a horrible idea. This coming from someone who has to drive through that area at least twice a day and uses the pedestrian facilities 2-3 time a week. Expanded sidewalks and a bike lane sound cool, but parallel parking also bad idea. That area needs the parking spots it has in order to attract businesses and that would take a lot of spots away. We neeeeed businesses to come to the area.
Ooops - sorry, I didn't mean 'parallel', I meant perpendicular. Good catch.
For Murray Hill to really take hold as a neighborhood it needs a well defined center. Since there is no room for a public square the next best option is a notable intersection. That is the difference between San Marco Square and the row of street-front buildings to the north. One has a defined center and the other doesn't.
Edgewood Avenue is so wide, if the funding were there, you could do a lane diet and install a median promenade with a multi-use path from the First block to I-10. Then the entire corridor would have a central green space and gathering spot.
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8475/8145840357_04a491fe2b.jpg)
(http://www.capitalnewyork.com/files/ParkAvenueRendering400_0.jpg)
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-5685-p1120054.JPG)
(http://urbanomnibus.net/redux/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/080812allenbike.jpeg)
I would like to experience that type of greenway first hand. Is there any place here in the Southeast that has put in something like that?
First time I was in Lancaster, CA I literally thought 'this is Edgewood Avenue in Murray Hill'
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8200/8227064555_4c3448254e_n_d.jpg)
(http://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/02/65/b0/2c/the-blvd.jpg)
(http://www.theavtimes.com//wp-content/uploads/2011/10/The-Blvd.jpg)
(http://www.theavtimes.com//wp-content/uploads/2011/10/The-BLVD-2.jpg)
(http://www.mparchitects.com/site/sites/default/files/styles/detail_images/public/images/lancasterKaid.jpg?itok=MD2_S3hd)
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8496/8343901766_9a0754713c_d.jpg)
BEFORE
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8358/8343745146_4430ed6306_n_d.jpg)
AFTER
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8493/8342686435_0b74229a97_m_d.jpg)
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8502/8342686533_00d62cedf9_d.jpg)
QuoteThe nine-block project, costing $11.5 million, has so far attracted $130 million in private investment and generated $273 million in economic output,
http://bettercities.net/article/new-streetscape-spurs-downtown-turnaround-19326 (http://bettercities.net/article/new-streetscape-spurs-downtown-turnaround-19326)
Quote49 new businesses along the boulevard and an almost doubling of revenue generated compared to just before the work began
An almost 10 percent rise in downtown property values
800 new permanent jobs, 1,100 temporary construction jobs, and an estimated $273 million in economic output
800 new and rehabbed homes
Dramatically increased roadway safety, with traffic collisions cut in half and collisions with personal injury cut by 85 percent
http://switchboard.nrdc.org/blogs/kbenfield/how_a_california_suburban_retr.html (http://switchboard.nrdc.org/blogs/kbenfield/how_a_california_suburban_retr.html)
^Whoa. That's a pretty nice duel purpose streetscape.
Is there an active 'Better Block' group in Jax that could do this as a demonstration project?
Quote from: thelakelander on October 21, 2013, 04:17:59 PM
Edgewood Avenue is so wide, if the funding were there, you could do a lane diet and install a median promenade with a multi-use path from the First block to I-10. Then the entire corridor would have a central green space and gathering spot.
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8475/8145840357_04a491fe2b.jpg)
(http://www.capitalnewyork.com/files/ParkAvenueRendering400_0.jpg)
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-5685-p1120054.JPG)
(http://urbanomnibus.net/redux/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/080812allenbike.jpeg)
*drools*
Quote from: Kerry on October 21, 2013, 05:12:39 PM
Is there an active 'Better Block' group in Jax that could do this as a demonstration project?
Murray hill has the murray hill preservation association that could, if enough people joined, make something like this happen. If it was done in conjunction with a merchants association, it would probably go farther. Dont think mh has a merchants assoc anymore.
I live a couple of blocks from the intersection of Edgewood and Mayflower and we DON'T need a roundabout.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Edgewood is so wide......
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Not the section of Edgewood and Mayflower. I have driven that section, walked that section and rode a electric scooter in that section. We still don't need a roundabout.
Quote from: Kerry on October 21, 2013, 04:34:06 PM
I would like to experience that type of greenway first hand. Is there any place here in the Southeast that has put in something like that?
The closest thing I can think of locally that comes to mind is Lillian S. Davin Park in the middle of River Road in San Marco.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/1002684104_eXgZY-M.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/1002684181_K329y-M.jpg)
A short stretch of Hollywood Boulevard in Hollywood, FL also has a similar theme:
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/1213598243_iM7RM-M.jpg)
Not close and it's more park and less road but I've always been impressed with Garfield Place (Piatt Park) in DT Cincinnati:
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/559901255_wLR9J-M.jpg)
Prepared to be ignored or smacked down, but the reformation of a neighborhood's merchant association is a necessary positive set of steps in the right direction to gain momentum and "teeth", that being said, several small businesses in MurrayHill&LakeShore cross market and live to share their success stories.
Pomade&Tonic and Jazzercise come to mind.
The two neighborhoods have much in common with most heavily travelled arterials running straight in to Avondale&Riverside.
If murrayhill's EdgewoodAve is "a poster child" for a road diet/ lane diet, then definitely moreso is LakeShore's stretch of Blanding (which was originally St.johnsAve when platted by the Riverside Co. of develepors,
AND sorely needs a roundabout at Blanding/OldStJohns/BayviewRd/& Palmer in order to revitalize the commercial strip suffering from too many vacancies and an environment build to be dangerous for cyclists and resident pedestrians.
The Bayview Road medians though at 30' wide are a special asset to Old Lake Shore
QuoteIf it was up to me I would replace the outside lanes with parallel parking, add dedicated and protected bike lanes, and expand the sidewalk to allow space for future sidewalk cafes and the like.
I agree we need a larger sidewalk, but at what expense? Expanding the sidewalks pushes the perpendicular parking out further to where only parallel is an option. What do you do with the parking in the middle of the shoppes of Murray Hill? You really need 8-10 foot lanes on either side for traffic, not much you can really do right there.
Also, there is a thread under Murray Hill or Westside, where our City Councilman for most of Murray Hill, Warren Jones, has a plans to beautify Cassat avenue, so Edgewood is not even on his radar. Good reason too, Cassat is a lot busier with more businesses than Edgewood.
If the Edgewood corridor is to get back on Councilman Jones' docket, we need more businesses to come back. We are seeing an increase, but we still have far too many empty spaces. 1171 will indeed help, but we need to move the Kat out and fill some of Sleiman's empty spaces, which we will see as the economy comes back.
Once there are more businesses along Edgewood, then the speed issue will come back, just as it has become an issue with Cassat.
Cost is relative to ROI.
In the Lancaster example:
Quote49 new businesses along the boulevard and an almost doubling of revenue generated compared to just before the work began
An almost 10 percent rise in downtown property values
800 new permanent jobs, 1,100 temporary construction jobs, and an estimated $273 million in economic output
800 new and rehabbed homes
Dramatically increased roadway safety, with traffic collisions cut in half and collisions with personal injury cut by 85 percent
Sounds like a no-brainer.
You don't even need to go as far as California to see the differences... just look what is happening in San Marco and along King Street.
BTW, this stretch of Edgewood is Jim Love's district.
Quote from: mtraininjax on October 22, 2013, 09:28:45 AM
Also, there is a thread under Murray Hill or Westside, where our City Councilman for most of Murray Hill, Warren Jones, has a plans to beautify Cassat avenue, so Edgewood is not even on his radar. Good reason too, Cassat is a lot busier with more businesses than Edgewood.
If the Edgewood corridor is to get back on Councilman Jones' docket, we need more businesses to come back. We are seeing an increase, but we still have far too many empty spaces. 1171 will indeed help, but we need to move the Kat out and fill some of Sleiman's empty spaces, which we will see as the economy comes back.
Once there are more businesses along Edgewood, then the speed issue will come back, just as it has become an issue with Cassat.
Also, Cassat is a FDOT road. Edgewood isn't. Any work on either will most likely come from different funding pots. For example, a certain percentage of mobility fee money is earmarked to Edgewood for an affordable complete streets makeover.
Quote from: mtraininjax on October 22, 2013, 09:28:45 AM
I agree we need a larger sidewalk, but at what expense? Expanding the sidewalks pushes the perpendicular parking out further to where only parallel is an option. What do you do with the parking in the middle of the shoppes of Murray Hill? You really need 8-10 foot lanes on either side for traffic, not much you can really do right there.
If you get rid of one travel lane in each direct it frees up 11 feet on both sides. Everything else moves in 11 feet with the sidewalk expanding to fill the new space. One of the things I dislike about the new San Marco Square is how little sidewalk space there is down by The Loop and Maple Street. I like to eat outside but it loses some of the luster when I have to eat 3 feet from someone's hot engine.
As for the center lane parking - that would just stay there and traffic would deflect around it. I actually wouldn't mind an alternating parking pattern with one block having curb side parking and the next block with center lane parking. It would make the street like a chicane which would keep spends down and the road interesting (St John's Town Center employed this a little bit).
QuoteAlso, Cassat is a FDOT road. Edgewood isn't. Any work on either will most likely come from different funding pots. For example, a certain percentage of mobility fee money is earmarked to Edgewood for an affordable complete streets makeover.
All great ideas, but again, Edgewood is not on the radar of the City Council, till it is, these are what they are, great ideas without a champion. Until you get a champion from City Council on board with this, funding or not, you are not going to see change. Sleiman could, but that space is a small amount of his overall portfolio. He has bigger fish frying at the Landing.
Well, the San Marco changes were funded by the local businesses and community outside normal city funding .. but I just don't think you have the critical mass of business to make those changes in Murray Hill in the same fashion.
Sitting around and waiting for the City to act is why many urban neighborhoods were abandoned in favor of every increasing sprawl. There are lots of ways to be pro-active and influence the direction of City Council.
Quote from: mtraininjax on October 22, 2013, 12:19:45 PM
QuoteAlso, Cassat is a FDOT road. Edgewood isn't. Any work on either will most likely come from different funding pots. For example, a certain percentage of mobility fee money is earmarked to Edgewood for an affordable complete streets makeover.
All great ideas, but again, Edgewood is not on the radar of the City Council, till it is, these are what they are, great ideas without a champion. Until you get a champion from City Council on board with this, funding or not, you are not going to see change. Sleiman could, but that space is a small amount of his overall portfolio. He has bigger fish frying at the Landing.
It's not really that complicated. For a simple lane restriping all you need is some coordination between Public Works, that particular council representative and the community. For example, eventually, PW will have to resurface the street as a part of routine maintenance. You coordinate, so when that happens, the street markings are different from what's currently in place. What you see happening in San Marco with Councilwoman Boyer is proof that coordination works.
Quote from: Kerry on October 22, 2013, 12:57:27 PM
Sitting around and waiting for the City to act is why many urban neighborhoods were abandoned in favor of every increasing sprawl. There are lots of ways to be pro-active and influence the direction of City Council.
Yes. San Marco and Riverside/Avondale are great examples of pro-active communities that influence the direction of city leaders. There's no reason Murray Hill can't be just as successful.
Quote from: icarus on October 22, 2013, 12:30:41 PM
Well, the San Marco changes were funded by the local businesses and community outside normal city funding .. but I just don't think you have the critical mass of business to make those changes in Murray Hill in the same fashion.
From what I understand, the lion's share of that San Marco project was funded with city money saved on the San Marco Boulevard streetscaping project. It just so happened that one of the roundabouts involved with the streetscaping project created a traffic stacking problem at the Atlantic Boulevard signal. Money saved on work to the north of the square, was then used to help alleviate the problem in the Square. Luckily, the roundabout solution also enhanced the Square by expanding Balis Park. Plus, the local businesses and the community raised money for the park's added amenities and maintenance. I see no reason why Murray Hill's business community can't be just as active.
However, to be honest, that San Marco project would not have happened at the warp speed it did without the coordination of saved public money from the streetscaping project that was already underway between the Square and I-95.
Quotet's not really that complicated. For a simple lane restriping all you need is some coordination between Public Works, that particular council representative and the community. For example, eventually, PW will have to resurface the street as a part of routine maintenance. You coordinate, so when that happens, the street markings are different from what's currently in place. What you see happening in San Marco with Councilwoman Boyer is proof that coordination works.
Well, maybe Lori Boyer will enjoy showing Warren Jones how to manage his district. I know the council members enjoy it when other council members tell them how to manage their constituents.
We all know its really, really, really not that easy.
Isn't Edgewood in Love's district? If that's what the constituents want, they should lobby for it. Evidently, that's what's happening with Cassat and Jones.
QuoteIsn't Edgewood in Love's district? If that's what the constituents want, they should lobby for it. Evidently, that's what's happening with Cassat and Jones.
Might be in Jim's district. I think the divider line is Post Street. I think you are right. How many transportation projects has Jim proposed?
Anyone thought about how the vendors and store owners will feel about the impact of construction on their businesses? By the time the construction is completed, those shops may be a ghost town, people will avoid the area like the plague, because of the construction issues. Half the street is strong, let 1171 kick in, some more stores, and see if we can get a good tenant in the Kat and wait and see how they do, before we decide to tear up the asphalt.
I don't want a roundabout at Edgewood and Plymouth, and I can tell you the heat on Jones and Love would be much greater at Post/Edgewood, even though that area would better support it with 4 REAL lanes of traffic and many more vehicles.
So wait and do nothing as see how that works out. Great plan. How does that differ from the strategy of the last 20 years that produced what is there today?
Quote from: mtraininjax on October 23, 2013, 09:08:52 AM
Anyone thought about how the vendors and store owners will feel about the impact of construction on their businesses? By the time the construction is completed, those shops may be a ghost town, people will avoid the area like the plague, because of the construction issues. Half the street is strong, let 1171 kick in, some more stores, and see if we can get a good tenant in the Kat and wait and see how they do, before we decide to tear up the asphalt.
Or a simple restriping as lake suggested.
QuoteSo wait and do nothing as see how that works out. Great plan. How does that differ from the strategy of the last 20 years that produced what is there today?
Go for it! I personally do not see the need.
QuoteOr a simple restriping as lake suggested.
Do we have a picture of this yet, or what it could look like? I know how Lake likes pictures....
I'm not saying this is what you do but here is an example of restriping.
Main Street - Pottstown, PA - Before
(http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/publications/publicroads/11septoct/images/tan1.jpg)
Main Street - Pottstown, PA - After
(http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/publications/publicroads/11septoct/images/tan2.jpg)
A DT Tampa street, shortly after restriping to add bike lanes in 2010:
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Tampa-Dec-2010/i-nn9SDKT/0/M/P1430577-M.jpg)
The Tampa example was really done on the cheap. The old lines were "removed" probably by water or sand blasting, or perhaps very localized grinding. Problem is, at night or in the rain - and especially both - the "wrong" lines often show up better than the proper ones. Something about the rough surface catching light better than the painted lines.
It looks like the PA example was done "right" with a new surface put down before the striping - and probably the old pavement - probably just the top surface - removed. Of course, this costs more, and is more disruptive to traffic and adjacent businesses - but it seems safer without the confusion of "which line is which?".
^It seems like the proper thing to do would be to have some sort of plan where changes are coordinated with roadway resurfacing projects. If coordinated, over a decade or so you'd have a pretty comprehensive complete streets network at a cost you would be paying to maintain the roadways anyway.
^ +1
So let me ask, how does Jacksonville fund road construction and who sets the priority?
Believe it or not, Jax Transportation Authority is the lead agency on road building of local roads. Yeah, they people in charge of the buses.
Quote from: Charles Hunter on October 23, 2013, 07:14:15 PM
The Tampa example was really done on the cheap. The old lines were "removed" probably by water or sand blasting, or perhaps very localized grinding. Problem is, at night or in the rain - and especially both - the "wrong" lines often show up better than the proper ones. Something about the rough surface catching light better than the painted lines.
The Tampa street was resurfaced a year later and the lines are now done appropriately....I think the 2010 effort was a "test"
Quote from: mtraininjax on October 24, 2013, 08:58:14 AM
Believe it or not, Jax Transportation Authority is the lead agency on road building of local roads. Yeah, they people in charge of the buses.
not so. Many local roads are built and all are maintained by the City of Jacksonville
Tufsu1 - You should mention this to JTA, since they seem to think they are in charge of spending the BJP money, here is a link to their projects. Notice who the Project Manager is often times, FDOT...
http://www.jtafla.com/Projects/showPage.aspx?Sel=50 (http://www.jtafla.com/Projects/showPage.aspx?Sel=50)
Maintaining roads typically falls under Public Works, filling pot holes, and the like, but I am sure there is a great degree of cooperation between agencies just the same.
Is BJP money the sole source of street maintenance funding? I only ask because I don't know.
Quote from: Kerry on October 24, 2013, 12:24:11 PM
Is BJP money the sole source of street maintenance funding? I only ask because I don't know.
My understanding is that BJP is for capital improvements funding only so no maintenance was part of it.
If that is the case then they are playing fast and loose with the term 'capital improvements' since a lot of money was used to rebuild a couple of existing intersections on Atlantic and Beach Blvd.
Does the City use bonds or property taxes for road maintenance?