Hopefully more than paint & lighting, but even just that would be welcome.
www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2013/09/18/with-renovations-in-the-works.html?ana=twt&r=full
Sleiman has owned the Landing for 10 years now. Wow!
Mr. Sleiman, if you seek vibrancy, if you seek prosperity for Jacksonville and North Florida, if you seek growth: Come here to this gateway to the river! Mr. Sleiman, open this gateway! Mr. Sleiman, tear down this wall!
In my best Reagan voice...
Hopefully he'll listen to what quite a few people have been telling him for years and open it up to Laura St.
I thought Sleiman was the one who originally proposed opening the Landing up to Laura Street?
What's different this time?
Quote from: thelakelander on September 19, 2013, 08:48:26 AM
I thought Sleiman was the one who originally proposed opening the Landing up to Laura Street?
Yea I think he was, but I know a lot of others have been pushing him to do it for years now. At the 2009 APA conference, during the Landing redesign charette/excercise, it took the out of towners about 5 minutes to realize it needed to be done.
^From what I understand, the primary issue nothing has happened has dealt more with politics/negotiations between Sleiman and the city.
I'd be happy to do the work. But do y'all really think that if you're driving down Laura a view of the river is going to make you want to find a parking space and walk to the landing on a whim?
Who is even down town that didn't go there on purpose already?
As part of that I would be ecstatic to see a mixed use residential component built in along Water and Hogan. Tall enough to offer riverfront views on the upper floors with retail on the bottom to make up the lost square footage from opening up the Laura Street corridor.
I don't think that would be too risky. Maybe he could also team up with the city to designate some of the owed parking in the coming garage across the street for the new residents.
Quote from: Lunican on September 19, 2013, 08:52:54 AM
What's different this time?
It's approaching the age of 25. Perhaps, it's time for a bubble bath.
Quote from: Overstreet on September 19, 2013, 09:07:52 AM
I'd be happy to do the work. But do y'all really think that if you're driving down Laura a view of the river is going to make you want to find a parking space and walk to the landing on a whim?
Yes, assuming that view includes lots of people, activity, retailers, and restaurants. We're naturally attracted to each other. You're more likely to make a stop at a place you can visually see people having a good time than in a corridor where all the street level retail spots are closed and boarded up. Also, such a scene will help stimulate more street front business opportunity on Laura, north of the Landing.
Quote from: Jason on September 19, 2013, 09:08:41 AM
As part of that I would be ecstatic to see a mixed use residential component built in along Water and Hogan....
I don't think that would be too risky. ...
What're the residential occupancy levels downtown? I believe they're high, but I don't have any figures in front of me to go by, only what I've seen and read.
Quote from: thelakelander on September 19, 2013, 09:09:15 AM
Quote from: Lunican on September 19, 2013, 08:52:54 AM
What's different this time?
It's approaching the age of 25. Perhaps, it's time for a bubble bath.
That's what I did when I turned 25.
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on September 19, 2013, 09:19:56 AM
Quote from: Jason on September 19, 2013, 09:08:41 AM
As part of that I would be ecstatic to see a mixed use residential component built in along Water and Hogan....
I don't think that would be too risky. ...
What're the residential occupancy levels downtown? I believe they're high, but I don't have any figures in front of me to go by, only what I've seen and read.
I believe the main ones (Strand/Peninsula/Carling/11E) are all hovering around 95% (maybe a little higher), some higher, some lower. I don't think they have waiting lists, but the selection is limited.
Also, if Toney gets a major renovation done at the Landing, I take back every bad thing I have ever said about his strip malling.
Don't know. Everything I've experienced, personally, on the northbank is that the developments are pretty full.
Quote from: thelakelander on September 19, 2013, 09:11:42 AM
Quote from: Overstreet on September 19, 2013, 09:07:52 AM
I'd be happy to do the work. But do y'all really think that if you're driving down Laura a view of the river is going to make you want to find a parking space and walk to the landing on a whim?
Yes, assuming that view includes lots of people, activity, retailers, and restaurants. We're naturally attracted to each other. You're more likely to make a stop at a place you can visually see people having a good time than in a corridor where all the street level retail spots are closed and boarded up. Also, such a scene will help stimulate more street front business opportunity on Laura, north of the Landing.
^Agreed...and to add on, its not just to lure in people in cars, but also people walking the street and in office buildings. The Landing occasionally has events and concerts going on, but they go unseen. Someone is far more likely to venture into the Landing courtyard if they see something going on, than if they just assume something is going on behind walls. An open courtyard would also give the Landing more of an opportunity to create a vibrant gateway between the river and Laura Street. There could be vendors, street performers, etc between the courtyard and roundabout instead of a bland entryway.
Also somone correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Laura go slightly uphill from the river? I don't think opening it up would lead to a San Francisco like panorama of the river, but I do think it would create a stronger visual connection between the downtown core and the river.
Yes, it does go slightly uphill. If the courtyard were opened to the street, you would be able to see it and the river pretty well from the Hemming Plaza area.
Quote from: CityLife on September 19, 2013, 09:25:14 AM
Also somone correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Laura go slightly uphill from the river? I don't think opening it up would lead to a San Francisco like panorama of the river, but I do think it would create a stronger visual connection between the downtown core and the river.
I sure does, and thanks to that hill, I was pulled over while on a bicycle.
Not for speeding per se, but a cop saw me passing cars, blue lighted me and asked me to tone it down a bit.
ON A BICYCLE.
You could probably see friendship fountain from around Laura and Bay if it was opened up.
Nothing attracts a crowd like a crowd, as lake said, people are drawn to each other. Plus, it would be more inviting for tourists who don't know that it opens up on the other side, if they're looking from Laura.
25's in the rear view mirror for the Landing; it opened in June 1987.
Wow. I'm getting old. So 30 is coming up pretty soon.
http://jacksonville.com/slideshow/2012-06-27/jacksonville-landing-look-back-25-years#slide-1
Back to the original topic that got all this started, at least for me anyway. Still talking about the Landing. Still waiting to see something change. sigh.
In 1987, 'obstructed views of the river' or 'lack of signage' was no problem concerning the Landing; I never bought into that, if a place is poppin' it's poppin'. Hell, it can look like a prison from the outside, but if it's known for great shopping, vibrancy etc, people will come regardless; Believe me, I'm in NO way comparing the Mall of America to the Landing, but look at it? Not exactly translucent with tons of signage. Don't think for a second that if the Landing opened a Macy's or 'fill in the blank wanted store' it wouldn't create enormous buzz, regardless of a riverview from Independent Drive.
Quote from: I-10east on September 19, 2013, 11:38:14 AM
In 1987, 'obstructed views of the river' or 'lack of signage' was no problem concerning the Landing; I never bought into that, if a place is poppin' it's poppin'. Hell, it can look like a prison from the outside, but if it's known for great shopping, vibrancy etc, people will come regardless; Believe me, I'm in NO way comparing the Mall of America to the Landing, but look at it? Not exactly translucent with tons of signage. Don't think for a second that if the Landing opened a Macy's or 'fill in the blank wanted store' it wouldn't create enormous buzz, regardless of a riverview from Independent Drive.
The landing is not exactly dead. Go there on a weekend and try to get a table at Chicago pizza, Hooters is also usually packed. Mavericks has been there for a long time too (10 years?) and is usually quite busy (look at their facebook photos).
It could be better though, there's shops on the inside that aren't doing as well (though some are).
Quote from: coredumped on September 19, 2013, 12:56:15 PM
Mavericks has been there for a long time too (10 years?)
Opened in late 2007, following the Club Paris fiasco.
Quote from: I-10east on September 19, 2013, 11:38:14 AM
In 1987, 'obstructed views of the river' or 'lack of signage' was no problem concerning the Landing; I never bought into that, if a place is poppin' it's poppin'. Hell, it can look like a prison from the outside, but if it's known for great shopping, vibrancy etc, people will come regardless; Believe me, I'm in NO way comparing the Mall of America to the Landing, but look at it? Not exactly translucent with tons of signage. Don't think for a second that if the Landing opened a Macy's or 'fill in the blank wanted store' it wouldn't create enormous buzz, regardless of a riverview from Independent Drive.
I think you've missed the point of opening or integrating the Landing courtyard with the street. If you go back to 1987, what did the Landing do for the rest of downtown's street life? Did it enhance or vacuum people away? It sure didn't help the retail district that was on life support around Hemming Plaza.
To have a successful or vibrant downtown, venues like the Landing can't be isolated spaces. They have to be well integrated and woven into the greater area to turn the overall district into a place where people want to come hang out, live, dine and enjoy.
It would be interesting to see if Sleiman is going back to something similar to what he proposed before.
I think they should tear the damn thing down and start over
Quote from: coredumped on September 19, 2013, 12:56:15 PM
Quote from: I-10east on September 19, 2013, 11:38:14 AM
In 1987, 'obstructed views of the river' or 'lack of signage' was no problem concerning the Landing; I never bought into that, if a place is poppin' it's poppin'. Hell, it can look like a prison from the outside, but if it's known for great shopping, vibrancy etc, people will come regardless; Believe me, I'm in NO way comparing the Mall of America to the Landing, but look at it? Not exactly translucent with tons of signage. Don't think for a second that if the Landing opened a Macy's or 'fill in the blank wanted store' it wouldn't create enormous buzz, regardless of a riverview from Independent Drive.
The landing is not exactly dead. Go there on a weekend and try to get a table at Chicago pizza, Hooters is also usually packed. Mavericks has been there for a long time too (10 years?) and is usually quite busy (look at their facebook photos).
It could be better though, there's shops on the inside that aren't doing as well (though some are).
Most of the outside restaurants seem to do okay. But the inside is downright depressing. Not sure any amount of paint or lighting can fix it. I remember going to the Landing as a kid to the arcade and the inside of the complex looks exactly the same as it did 20 years ago.
Quote from: copperfiend on September 19, 2013, 02:36:09 PM
Quote from: coredumped on September 19, 2013, 12:56:15 PM
Quote from: I-10east on September 19, 2013, 11:38:14 AM
In 1987, 'obstructed views of the river' or 'lack of signage' was no problem concerning the Landing; I never bought into that, if a place is poppin' it's poppin'. Hell, it can look like a prison from the outside, but if it's known for great shopping, vibrancy etc, people will come regardless; Believe me, I'm in NO way comparing the Mall of America to the Landing, but look at it? Not exactly translucent with tons of signage. Don't think for a second that if the Landing opened a Macy's or 'fill in the blank wanted store' it wouldn't create enormous buzz, regardless of a riverview from Independent Drive.
The landing is not exactly dead. Go there on a weekend and try to get a table at Chicago pizza, Hooters is also usually packed. Mavericks has been there for a long time too (10 years?) and is usually quite busy (look at their facebook photos).
It could be better though, there's shops on the inside that aren't doing as well (though some are).
Most of the outside restaurants seem to do okay. But the inside is downright depressing. Not sure any amount of paint or lighting can fix it. I remember going to the Landing as a kid to the arcade and the inside of the complex looks exactly the same as it did 20 years ago.
This, plus the obvious beautification & connection reasons, are exactly why it needs to be opened up. No one wants to go inside that thing. There's no point. Plus, the mini mall concept is dead as a doornail. Stop trying to hold onto the 80s & put it out of its misery already.
I'd even go so far as to make this part of a plan to close off vehicular traffic on Laura on weekends & connect that whole sum bitch up right. ;)
Quote from: peestandingup on September 19, 2013, 02:58:09 PM
Plus, the mini mall concept is dead as a doornail.
What if said mini mall sold living rooms, bedrooms, and dinettes?
Quote from: peestandingup on September 19, 2013, 02:58:09 PM
I'd even go so far as to make this part of a plan to close off vehicular traffic on Laura on weekends & connect that whole sum bitch up right. ;)
I was with you until this. Ped streets are tooo gimicky. It says we can't figure out complete streets, so we just eliminate driving and parking. They've already made that street anti-bike.
Quote from: peestandingup on September 19, 2013, 02:58:09 PM
I'd even go so far as to make this part of a plan to close off vehicular traffic on Laura on weekends & connect that whole sum bitch up right. ;)
Are you thinking what I'm thinking? Start this bad boy up around Forsythe.....
http://www.youtube.com/v/3wAjpMP5eyo?
Right into the Friendship Fountiain, FTW!
Quote from: PeeJayEss on September 19, 2013, 03:05:36 PM
Quote from: peestandingup on September 19, 2013, 02:58:09 PM
I'd even go so far as to make this part of a plan to close off vehicular traffic on Laura on weekends & connect that whole sum bitch up right. ;)
I was with you until this. Ped streets are tooo gimicky. It says we can't figure out complete streets, so we just eliminate driving and parking. They've already made that street anti-bike.
I dont think they're gimmicky at all. They provide a human element that's become lost in our automotive centric world. Plus, it would further un-segregate an area that needs a boost & returned to glory, which is the heart of your city. Right now downtown is poison to cyclists & pedestrians, which for a downtown, should be the opposite. When a suburban mall like Town Center has you beat as far as these things go, you know you've got problems.
Besides, a lot of downtowns do this on a weekly basis. Hell, my old stomping grounds of Louisville (Fourth Street Live) & Lexington (Short Street/Cheapside district) both do this on weekends, and its very successful. And that's in Kentucky. Kentucky! We can't do better than that??
Doesn't the Landing already essentially have a pedestrian street? It runs parallel to the river and separates the riverfront restaurants from the retail shops.
^ yes...although the ones at Bayside in Miami are much more functional
Quote from: thelakelander on September 19, 2013, 04:01:07 PM
Doesn't the Landing already essentially have a pedestrian street? It runs parallel to the river and separates the riverfront restaurants from the retail shops.
It does, but there's nothing else of real importance around it though.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/11/nyregion/grief-and-bargains-as-south-street-seaport-shopping-center-closes.html?_r=0
These "festival marketplaces" have in most places become unwanted. Time to raze the Landing and build something relevant.
Before they all are condemned as unwanted, how is Baltimore or Norfolk VA doing? What about the others? I suspect it is more about what is going on around them than what they are.
Quote from: johnny_simpatico on September 19, 2013, 05:15:39 PM
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/11/nyregion/grief-and-bargains-as-south-street-seaport-shopping-center-closes.html?_r=0
These "festival marketplaces" have in most places become unwanted. Time to raze the Landing and build something relevant.
That's because they're past their prime, as is a lot of traditional retail. Going downtown to pay inflated markup for what's basically a dime a dozen stores isn't something that's on most people's radar these days.
And you dont have to raze the place, just cut the fat (middle part) & turn it into something that works for the times. An entertainment district, coupled with Laura & Bay streets, would fit that bill.
Okay even hypothetically with this supposed 'heavenly corridor' on Laura Street, with the Landing (of course complete with a hole through the middle, so that all the masses truly know that the St John's River is there); There will definitely be permanent 'hiatuses' of skyscraper curtain wall (not the desired retail) with some the city's tallest on Laura St (BOA, Wells Fargo, Jacksonville Center) and other areas like Regions Bank; Not exactly an uninterrupted lively promenade of shopping. Even with this 'desired Landing with a hole' any urban decline, or extreme complacency overtime will simply result in an under-utilized Landing (like now) with a hole looking out at the river. I totally disagree the idea of closing Laura auto traffic off for pedestrian foot traffic; That would be an extreme logistical nightmare, and totally disrupt and ruin the traffic grid.
I disagree with the 'reverse vampire theory' being that the indoors is bad; Thriving places like the Avenues, and Orange Park Mall proves otherwise. Sure enough, a niche surely would rather be in 'the Florida sun' with tons of sunlight, but there's that many more people like me who can care less one way or the other. Those inner stores became 'Mom & Pop City' because of parking issues, urban decline, and the economy not because of lack of sun. Besides there's plenty of sunny areas around the Landing (second floor outside the food court, courtyard etc) Don't get me wrong, the Landing can use a touch-up, but nothing extreme like the 'Red Sea hole'.
Quote from: strider on September 19, 2013, 05:30:26 PM
Before they all are condemned as unwanted, how is Baltimore or Norfolk VA doing? What about the others? I suspect it is more about what is going on around them than what they are.
Here's a list of festival marketplaces built by Rouse. Most are still operating:
Underground Atlanta, Atlanta, Georgia
Harborplace, Baltimore, Maryland
Faneuil Hall, Boston, Massachusetts
Navy Pier, Chicago, Illinois
Aloha Tower Marketplace, Honolulu, Hawaii
Jacksonville Landing, Jacksonville, FloridaThe Grove at Farmers Market, Los Angeles, California
Hollywood and Highland, Los Angeles, California
Bayside Marketplace, Miami, Florida
Jackson Brewery, New Orleans, Louisiana
Riverwalk, New Orleans, Louisiana
South Street Seaport, New York City
Waterside, Norfolk, Virginia
Jack London Square, Oakland, California
Arizona Center, Phoenix, Arizona
Station Square, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
Westfield Horton Plaza, San Diego, California
Ghirardelli Square, San Francisco, California
Pier 39, San Francisco, California
St. Louis Union Station, St. Louis, Missouri
Union Station (Washington, D.C.), Washington, D.C.
Tower City Center. Cleveland, Ohio
Water Street Pavilion, Flint, Michigan
Union Station, Indianapolis, Indiana
Portside, Toledo, Ohio
Erie Street Market, Toledo, OH
Sixth Street Festival Marketplace, Richmond, Virginia
Festival Market, Lexington, Kentucky-(Opened in 1986, closed in the early 1990s.)
Saint Anthony Main, Minneapolis, Minnesota
Bandana Square, Saint Paul, Minnesota
West End Marketplace, Dallas, Texas
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Festival_marketplace
Quote from: I-10east on September 19, 2013, 08:34:47 PM
Okay even hypothetically with this supposed 'heavenly corridor' on Laura Street, with the Landing (of course complete with a hole through the middle, so that all the masses truly know that the St John's River is there); There will definitely be permanent 'hiatuses' of skyscraper curtain wall (not the desired retail) with some the city's tallest on Laura St (BOA, Wells Fargo, Jacksonville Center) and other areas like Regions Bank; Not exactly an uninterrupted lively promenade of shopping.
Don't know when the last time you've been downtown but most of the places you just named already have street level retail spaces in their lobbies. No one said anything about a "promenade of shopping" and I don't believe anyone thinks we'll have a Miracle Mile down there. Nevertheless, that corridor (and others) can easily have a couple of continuous blocks of occupied storefronts featuring everything from dining and specialty retail to dry cleaners and banks.
QuoteEven with this 'desired Landing with a hole' any urban decline, or extreme complacency overtime will simply result in an under-utilized Landing (like now) with a hole looking out at the river. I totally disagree the idea of closing Laura auto traffic off for pedestrian foot traffic; That would be an extreme logistical nightmare, and totally disrupt and ruin the traffic grid.
I don't agree with closing off Laura to cars either. Businesses need visibility to survive. Limiting that, limits their ultimate success.
QuoteI disagree with the 'reverse vampire theory' being that the indoors is bad; Thriving places like the Avenues, and Orange Park Mall proves otherwise. Sure enough, a niche surely would rather be in 'the Florida sun' with tons of sunlight, but there's that much more people like me who can care less one way or the other. Those inner stores became 'Mom & Pop City' because of urban decline and the economy not because of lack of sun. Don't get me wrong, the Landing can use a touch-up, but nothing extreme like the 'Red Sea hole'.
Integration with your surroundings in an urban environment should be desirable, regardless of it you have an indoor, outdoor center or a mix of both.
Quote from: peestandingup on September 19, 2013, 05:41:39 PM
And you dont have to raze the place, just cut the fat (middle part) & turn it into something that works for the times. An entertainment district, coupled with Laura & Bay streets, would fit that bill.
Yes, I find it pretty funny when people talk about putting something like the Landing on the Shipyards site. It's much easier, quicker, and cheaper to find a way to make an existing structure like the Landing work than blowing it up and starting over by building something similar on a site nearby.
^^^Too be fair, I believe that you brought this up one time; Most don't know about that retail within those office buildings.
Quote from: stephendare on September 19, 2013, 08:42:27 PM
well at least you are consistent. Not everyone can be as consistently incorrect yet so confident at the same time.
Great insight Stephen. You disagreed with EVERYTHING that I had said, whatta surprise! So I guess making Laura St (a street in the center of DT) a pedestrian only zone isn't extreme....
Not to mention the poster only suggested it for weekends only.
Quote from: I-10east on September 19, 2013, 08:48:53 PM
^^^Too be fair, I believe that you brought this up one time; Most don't know about that retail within those office buildings.
I thought I just mentioned retail. I never said what type. Nevertheless, I did mention integrating the Landing with the streets surrounding it because those streets and buildings do include existing underutilized retail spaces. Opening up the Landing, helps stimulate more visibility and foot traffic, which gives us a better chance of creating a natural market to fill up the existing retail spaces on streets like Laura.
Stephen, you said that I was 'consistently incorrect' so I supposed that you disagreed with my remark below too (yes someone mentioned it, not me making it up). Maybe you should break things down ala Lake with your debates (esp with multiple issues) instead of throwing out baseless remarks like "You're totally wrong as usual!".
Quote from: I-10east on September 19, 2013, 08:34:47 PM
I totally disagree the idea of closing Laura auto traffic off for pedestrian foot traffic; That would be an extreme logistical nightmare, and totally disrupt and ruin the traffic grid.
Quote from: edjax on September 19, 2013, 08:57:41 PM
Not to mention the poster only suggested it for weekends only.
I was in Orlando last week. Church Street is open to vehicular traffic most of the time. However, when the Magic games take place, the street is closed and it becomes a pedestrian only zone, making an outdoor activity space between the front doors of the Amway Center and the bars/restaurants in the garage across the street. Look hard and you can see where the bollards come out of the street to restrict car access at certain times.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Orlando-2013/i-P9Hpzfj/0/M/P1670494-M.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Orlando-2013/i-dhKFdSj/0/M/P1670490-M.jpg)
I think parts,of Laura were closed down during One Spark. Also they partially close it during Gator Bowl and Fl/Ga weekend. I really doubt that there is so much traffic downtown on a normal weekend that closing it would cause a major logistical problem.
Typical highbrow condescending remark from one Sir Stephendare. It sure didn't stop you from replying though. It's currently Thursday, September 19, 2013; You'll find a way to disagree with that too...
Quote from: edjax on September 19, 2013, 09:10:43 PM
I think parts,of Laura were closed down during One Spark. Also they partially close it during Gator Bowl and Fl/Ga weekend. I really doubt that there is so much traffic downtown on a normal weekend that closing it would cause a major logistical problem.
No, it wouldn't. Typical downtown weekends look more like London in 28 Days Later. You almost expect zombies to run after you because it's so quiet.
Quote from: edjax on September 19, 2013, 08:57:41 PM
Not to mention the poster only suggested it for weekends only.
^This. And only at night. Not sure how people mistook it as "close down the whole shebang permanently". The examples I listed does just that (weekends only).
Maybe I should have been clearer.
Quote from: thelakelander on September 19, 2013, 09:00:50 PM
I thought I just mentioned retail. I never said what type. Nevertheless, I did mention integrating the Landing with the streets surrounding it because those streets and buildings do include existing underutilized retail spaces. Opening up the Landing, helps stimulate more visibility and foot traffic, which gives us a better chance of creating a natural market to fill up the existing retail spaces on streets like Laura.
This what I was getting at right here Lake; I'm not saying that it isn't any retail in those places, but it's hidden. That was back in 2010, so I can imagine that some of those places closed.
www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2010-nov-creating-downtown-vibrancy-by-exposing-secret-retail
Quote from: peestandingup on September 19, 2013, 09:31:27 PM
Quote from: edjax on September 19, 2013, 08:57:41 PM
Not to mention the poster only suggested it for weekends only.
^This. And only at night. Not sure how people mistook it as "close down the whole shebang permanently". The examples I listed does just that (weekends only).
Maybe I should have been clearer.
I'll take responsibility for that, my bad.
Nah. I think your comment about weekend only was pretty clear. Some just prefer firing off before reading.
Btw. Why not close it during First Saturday events also. Tie events for that event onnRiverwalk, the Landing and Main Library together with more vendors and food trucks lined up Laura to Hemming Plaza with events there too.
^^^PeeStandingUp was the person that made the weekend comment clear; I'm the person that mistakenly thought that yall was talking about closing Laura off permanently. That's why I said 'my bad' in the earlier post.
^^^^^yes. I know.
Damn, after I apologized. So much for the appreciation for integrity and honesty. I can't promise that I will never make a mistake again. This is the world that we live in right now...
And back in topic. At this point all we know really is new lighting and fresh paint!!! Woohoo!!!! Maybe even Fuddruckers this time around!!!! Come on. We can all dream!!
Also, that last bit of Hogan Street should be pulled up and turned into a green space, seamlessly linking the landing and theater.
+1000
Quote from: peestandingup on September 19, 2013, 09:31:27 PM
Quote from: edjax on September 19, 2013, 08:57:41 PM
Not to mention the poster only suggested it for weekends only.
^This. And only at night. Not sure how people mistook it as "close down the whole shebang permanently". The examples I listed does just that (weekends only).
Maybe I should have been clearer.
Everyday or just some days, I still disagree. The Landing already has plenty of underutilized pedestrian space. I don't see how adding more will help, it will reduce access to the buildings along the street, and it will force traffic further outside this core area of downtown. Plus, people on this board complain when they have to park more than a couple blocks to a destination (and these are the urban advocates of the city), so imagine how eliminating parking on Laura and in front of the Landing would go over.
Quote from: Jax96 on September 19, 2013, 10:26:27 PM
Also, that last bit of Hogan Street should be pulled up and turned into a green space, seamlessly linking the landing and theater.
This, however, is spot on. I'd say not even just green space, if you can squeeze some parcels in there for new construction that would really be big.
Quote from: Jax96 on September 19, 2013, 10:26:27 PM
Also, that last bit of Hogan Street should be pulled up and turned into a green space, seamlessly linking the landing and theater.
And the greatest part is that there is already a plan to do just that. It's probably buried somewhere getting eaten by roaches though....
Interesting links:
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2009-nov-urban-planning-the-riverwalks
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2007-jun-five-projects-changing-the-urban-landscape
Quote from: strider on September 19, 2013, 05:30:26 PM
Before they all are condemned as unwanted, how is Baltimore or Norfolk VA doing? What about the others? I suspect it is more about what is going on around them than what they are.
Baltimore still does quite well, and I understand Faneuil Hall in Boston does too. (And Horton Plaza in San Diego, which is really a mall and not a festival market, though it's a very unconventional-looking open-air mall.) All of them probably do well more so because they are in the middle of a lot of activity and not because people are going downtown to go shopping. E.g., people go to Harborplace because they are in downtown Baltimore for an Orioles game or to go to National Aquarium, not the other way around.
Norfolk's downtown is more successful than ever, but its Waterside marketplace has struggled the last few years. Other parts of downtown drew business away, and fights and other illicit activities led to the closure of a couple of the largest restaurants/bars. Still, there's so much positive interest in downtown Norfolk that I expect it'll be retooled and revamped before long. It does still have a couple of name tenants such as Outback and Joe's Crab Shack.
Quote from: thelakelander on September 19, 2013, 08:35:27 PM
Quote from: strider on September 19, 2013, 05:30:26 PM
Before they all are condemned as unwanted, how is Baltimore or Norfolk VA doing? What about the others? I suspect it is more about what is going on around them than what they are.
Here's a list of festival marketplaces built by Rouse. Most are still operating:
Underground Atlanta, Atlanta, Georgia
Harborplace, Baltimore, Maryland
Faneuil Hall, Boston, Massachusetts
Navy Pier, Chicago, Illinois
Aloha Tower Marketplace, Honolulu, Hawaii
Jacksonville Landing, Jacksonville, Florida
The Grove at Farmers Market, Los Angeles, California
Hollywood and Highland, Los Angeles, California
Bayside Marketplace, Miami, Florida
Jackson Brewery, New Orleans, Louisiana
Riverwalk, New Orleans, Louisiana
South Street Seaport, New York City
Waterside, Norfolk, Virginia
Jack London Square, Oakland, California
Arizona Center, Phoenix, Arizona
Station Square, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
Westfield Horton Plaza, San Diego, California
Ghirardelli Square, San Francisco, California
Pier 39, San Francisco, California
St. Louis Union Station, St. Louis, Missouri
Union Station (Washington, D.C.), Washington, D.C.
Tower City Center. Cleveland, Ohio
Water Street Pavilion, Flint, Michigan
Union Station, Indianapolis, Indiana
Portside, Toledo, Ohio
Erie Street Market, Toledo, OH
Sixth Street Festival Marketplace, Richmond, Virginia
Festival Market, Lexington, Kentucky-(Opened in 1986, closed in the early 1990s.)
Saint Anthony Main, Minneapolis, Minnesota
Bandana Square, Saint Paul, Minnesota
West End Marketplace, Dallas, Texas
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Festival_marketplace
Off the top of my head -
In addition to South St. Seaport, the Toledo ones failed (one was converted to a science center, which also closed) and I am pretty sure the Flint one is also dead.
Sixth St. Marketplace was one of the saddest tales. It was designed as a sort of hybrid between a conventional mall and a festival marketplace. It connected Richmond's two remaining downtown department stores, Thalhimers and Miller & Rhoads, and also symbolically bridged Broad Street, which historically represented a racial dividing line in Richmond. But it never really took off, because it was trying to be a mall but with smaller retail spaces, and it was difficult to figure out how to access it. Then when out-of-town chains bought the Thalhimers and Miller & Rhoads chains and immediately closed those stores, that was the immediate death knell. Somehow it limped on for another dozen years or so with a Foot Locker, a Radio Shack, a few food court tenants, and acres of empty space in between. It was torn down around 2002 or 2003.
I've been to Navy Pier, Ghiradelli Square, Pier 39, Underground Atlanta, Bayside, and Aloha Tower Marketplace recently...I've also purposely not been to several on the list Lakelander posted. Most of these places are novelty spots where visitors go and are quickly dissapointed. Many of them are tourist traps and an absolute waste of time. The Landing has some decent restaurants and events, but by and large it is underutilzed.
The list of other similar centers did give me an interesting idea to activate The Landing. Riverwalk in New Orleans is being repurposed into an Outlet Center and is claiming to be the first downtown outlet center. I know outlet centers have a stigma, but there are actually quite a few good stores at the St. Augustine Outlets like J Crew, Banana Republic, Brooks Brothers, Nike, Adidas, Coach..and then more high end stuff on the other side. Outlet stores could be a brilliant way to activate the dying indoor festival marketplace. You want to get people off 95 to visit downtown? Or have people stop in Jax for a night on their way down? Give them some shopping to go along with the food, culture, and entertainment.
Now I don't know if outlet stores like being so close to each other, but its an idea that is at least worth exploring.
http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2013/09/20/rummell-landing-is-most-important-to.html (http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2013/09/20/rummell-landing-is-most-important-to.html)
An overhaul of the Jacksonville Landing could be the most important project to Downtown revitalization, one of the urban core's most powerful advocates said Friday.
"Every bone in my body tells me, from an overall point of view, if we were to spend money anywhere, spend it there," said Peter Rummell, the Jacksonville-based director of worldwide operations for the Urban Land Institute. "This is our front door, so I'd start there before I'd worry about five blocks in."
Jacksonville Landing owner Toney Sleiman told the Business Journal earlier this week that he is working on a renovation of the Landing, but wasn't yet ready to disclose any details beyond that it would include repainting and new lighting.
Rummell said he would "absolutely" prioritize the Landing over any other project, including the Laura Street Trio redevelopment.
"If there are two things that could signal a change in Downtown, it would be doing something significant with the Landing, and Hemming Plaza would be the other," he said.
Rummell recalled a hypothetical anecdote someone once told him, that if 10 random people at Jacksonville International Airport asked separate cabs to take them Downtown, seven out of 10 would likely go to the Landing, and the other three would be taken to Hemming Plaza.
"That's a scary thought that those two things would be seen as symbolic of Downtown," he said, "but I think it's sad but true."
The Landing, Rummell said, could become "a better version" of itself.
"I don't think you put a Nordstrom there," he said, "but I think it can be an activity node, for food and beverage, specialty retail."
Is this a joke?
A little paint and a few bulbs is more important than the trio?
Give the landing it's parking and call it a day!
(Off topic for one minute) JCPaint. I know I sometimes miss the obvious but I just noticed your site address under your name on the forum. Love the artwork! :) That is all.
Now back to the Landing....
Quote from: jcjohnpaint on September 20, 2013, 01:31:31 PM
Is this a joke?
A little paint and a few bulbs is more important than the trio?
Give the landing it's parking and call it a day!
To be honest, Rummell is right. The revitalization of the Landing is one of the most important items that can be done within a short time period. I'd dare to say, it would have more of an immediate positive impact than the Laura Trio (although that's a great need as well), the Shipyards and growing downtown's residential population base.
Regardless of what people think about the Landing and its owner, it is a major downtown landmark and one that attracts the most visitors to the area. It's image basically goes hand in hand with the overall image of downtown Jacksonville to the outside world. A revamped Landing is something that would make projects like the Laura Trio more feasible, increasing their chances of success in the process.
Quote from: thelakelander on September 20, 2013, 02:11:12 PM
Quote from: jcjohnpaint on September 20, 2013, 01:31:31 PM
Is this a joke?
A little paint and a few bulbs is more important than the trio?
Give the landing it's parking and call it a day!
To be honest, Rummell is right. The revitalization of the Landing is one of the most important items that can be done within a short time period. I'd dare to say, it would have more of an immediate positive impact than the Laura Trio (although that's a great need as well), the Shipyards and growing downtown's residential population base.
Regardless of what people think about the Landing and its owner, it is a major downtown landmark and one that attracts the most visitors to the area. It's image basically goes hand in hand with the overall image of downtown Jacksonville to the outside world. A revamped Landing is something that would make projects like the Laura Trio more feasible, increasing their chances of success in the process.
I agree, but at the same time, if something doesn't happen THIS time with the Trio, I think one or more of the buildings could be lost to the elements. Plus, it would make it that much more difficult to EVER do anything with the Trio later.
I hope it doesn't come down to an either or situation between the Trio and the Landing.
The landing is VERY important. I don't know that it's more important than the trio, but it's more of the "face of jacksonville" than the trio (or even hemming plaza for the past 20 years). When ESPN comes to down, they're at the landing, politicians all go to the landing.
And of course, it's also included in our skyline photos.
That being said, I wish the trio was on it's way, but lets not discount the landing and how many people it brings downtown every week.
Quote from: CityLife on September 20, 2013, 10:27:14 AM
The list of other similar centers did give me an interesting idea to activate The Landing. Riverwalk in New Orleans is being repurposed into an Outlet Center and is claiming to be the first downtown outlet center. I know outlet centers have a stigma, but there are actually quite a few good stores at the St. Augustine Outlets like J Crew, Banana Republic, Brooks Brothers, Nike, Adidas, Coach..and then more high end stuff on the other side. Outlet stores could be a brilliant way to activate the dying indoor festival marketplace. You want to get people off 95 to visit downtown? Or have people stop in Jax for a night on their way down? Give them some shopping to go along with the food, culture, and entertainment.
Now I don't know if outlet stores like being so close to each other, but its an idea that is at least worth exploring.
Intriguing but I don't think it would work. I have a hard time imagining that a Landing outlet (even with the bars and food and entertainment) could compete with St. Augustine's monster outlet center.
Just as festival markets have faded from their 80s heyday, so have outlet malls. In the last couple of decades the small outlet center in Brunswick died, and there's virtually nothing left of the big one in Darien that was introduced with great fanfare in the mid-90s. Several other 80s/90s outlet malls along I-95 in Virginia and the Carolinas have died or are a shell of themselves (Santee, Fredericksburg, Lumberton). Seems that the ones that thrive are supermalls and/or near cities that are already big for tourism.
Richmond had a downtown outlet mall in the 80s, in the old Main Street train station, and it flopped quickly and utterly - the building is now back to serving as an Amtrak station.
Quote from: vicupstate on September 20, 2013, 02:34:14 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on September 20, 2013, 02:11:12 PM
Quote from: jcjohnpaint on September 20, 2013, 01:31:31 PM
Is this a joke?
A little paint and a few bulbs is more important than the trio?
Give the landing it's parking and call it a day!
To be honest, Rummell is right. The revitalization of the Landing is one of the most important items that can be done within a short time period. I'd dare to say, it would have more of an immediate positive impact than the Laura Trio (although that's a great need as well), the Shipyards and growing downtown's residential population base.
Regardless of what people think about the Landing and its owner, it is a major downtown landmark and one that attracts the most visitors to the area. It's image basically goes hand in hand with the overall image of downtown Jacksonville to the outside world. A revamped Landing is something that would make projects like the Laura Trio more feasible, increasing their chances of success in the process.
I agree, but at the same time, if something doesn't happen THIS time with the Trio, I think one or more of the buildings could be lost to the elements. Plus, it would make it that much more difficult to EVER do anything with the Trio later.
I hope it doesn't come down to an either or situation between the Trio and the Landing.
Well, it should never be an either or. Only in Jax, does it seem like we immediately put projects against each other. We need them all. Not just these two, but also the Ambassador, Exchange building, Haydon Burns Library, Bostwick, etc.
There's a several ways to finance changes to projects, so every project in DT should not be relying on the $4.1 million left of the money Council took. Many cities plug financing gaps through tax abatements/breaks, etc. as opposed to handing out cash on the spot. A project like the Trio should also be able to apply for historic credits. While the Landing will not, you have the opportunity to play with deals with the land underneath it or the parking obligation situation to help numbers work.
Nevertheless, when compared head-to-head in terms of stimulating activity/image change in DT, nine times out of ten, one will immediately put more feet on downtown streets and is clearly more symbolic. I'm actually surprised it's taken so long for someone viewed as a local leader to state this about the Landing. It's been mentioned on the forums and on the street quite a bit over the years.
Quote from: Wacca Pilatka on September 20, 2013, 02:40:02 PM
Quote from: CityLife on September 20, 2013, 10:27:14 AM
The list of other similar centers did give me an interesting idea to activate The Landing. Riverwalk in New Orleans is being repurposed into an Outlet Center and is claiming to be the first downtown outlet center. I know outlet centers have a stigma, but there are actually quite a few good stores at the St. Augustine Outlets like J Crew, Banana Republic, Brooks Brothers, Nike, Adidas, Coach..and then more high end stuff on the other side. Outlet stores could be a brilliant way to activate the dying indoor festival marketplace. You want to get people off 95 to visit downtown? Or have people stop in Jax for a night on their way down? Give them some shopping to go along with the food, culture, and entertainment.
Now I don't know if outlet stores like being so close to each other, but its an idea that is at least worth exploring.
Intriguing but I don't think it would work. I have a hard time imagining that a Landing outlet (even with the bars and food and entertainment) could compete with St. Augustine's monster outlet center.
Just as festival markets have faded from their 80s heyday, so have outlet malls. In the last couple of decades the small outlet center in Brunswick died, and there's virtually nothing left of the big one in Darien that was introduced with great fanfare in the mid-90s. Several other 80s/90s outlet malls along I-95 in Virginia and the Carolinas have died or are a shell of themselves (Santee, Fredericksburg, Lumberton). Seems that the ones that thrive are supermalls and/or near cities that are already big for tourism.
Richmond had a downtown outlet mall in the 80s, in the old Main Street train station, and it flopped quickly and utterly - the building is now back to serving as an Amtrak station.
Before Philips Mall on Emerson finally failed, an outlet/off-price retail strategy was implemented there as well.
I think it politicians put projects against each other because that is who they are answering to at the end of the day. I think directly about Sleiman and his ties to Hogan during the last campaign. If we looked a little deeper into Clark, who knows how deep (dealings) would go. I am sure this is what his whole crush the mobility fee is about at the end of the day. All Sleiman mentioned was paint and lights. I think if we give him (Sleiman) his dedicated parking as promised- you would see much happen to the Landing. If not than I don't know. I think the Trio only has a limited amount of life left. When it is gone, it is gone. I would say I feel the Trio would do more than the landing due to the positive energy it would create. Anyways, if Sleiman was going to do something with the landing, why has he waited 10 years? Does he know something we don't know?
and..
Thanks Cat!
I don't know what Sleiman has planned or if it will even need city money. I was just stating in general the impact of the Landing on the prospects of bringing downtown back to life. I also believe the Laura Trio is important as well. Especially when it comes to the preservation of these structures and a critical slice of our local history. However, I'd be lying if I said, it's restoration will be a game changer for the area in the same manner that a 100% occupied and well integrated Landing would be. Nevertheless, they should never be pitted against each other. Let's get them both done. Sometimes, it's okay to have a couple of pieces of cake.
Just look at Charlotte. Their first LRT line went operational five years ago. They aren't sitting around waiting for the Jax and the rest of the South to get their act together before asking for more federal money for more fixed transit. While we debate the possibility of getting more than one project done, they've lobbied for money to get a modern streetcar and an additional LRT line under construction.
Quote from: PeeJayEss on September 20, 2013, 08:46:24 AM
Quote from: peestandingup on September 19, 2013, 09:31:27 PM
Quote from: edjax on September 19, 2013, 08:57:41 PM
Not to mention the poster only suggested it for weekends only.
^This. And only at night. Not sure how people mistook it as "close down the whole shebang permanently". The examples I listed does just that (weekends only).
Maybe I should have been clearer.
Everyday or just some days, I still disagree. The Landing already has plenty of underutilized pedestrian space. I don't see how adding more will help, it will reduce access to the buildings along the street, and it will force traffic further outside this core area of downtown. Plus, people on this board complain when they have to park more than a couple blocks to a destination (and these are the urban advocates of the city), so imagine how eliminating parking on Laura and in front of the Landing would go over.
And what exactly are people supposed to do at the Landing currently using all of this space, other than eat or walk along/stare out at the water? And we all know how Jax treats "underutilized" spaces (it forgets about them). Closing the street on weekends nights would be easy to do, wouldnt impact much of anything (weekends are mostly dead anyway, this isn't exactly a bustling downtown) & offer ready-made connectivity/infrastructure already in place. No need to "wait" for the city to use some underutilized space that'll never happen. Its there now. Food trucks would help this too.
To be honest, the only time downtown Jax acts/looks like a real alive city is when this happens at certain times of the year when special events are going on (like Jazz Fest). So why not do mini versions of that every weekend like so many other towns successfully do? Is there something to lose if it doesnt work? I don't believe so.
Not that I think any of this would happen (including opening up the internal part of the Landing). They'll likely put some more lipstick on a pig, announce a new chain restaurant & call it a day. Then wonder why no one is shopping in the failed-long-ago mini mall part of the complex, or eating at the awful food court upstairs.
Rumor has it the Laura Trio developer will seek $20 million in incentives....imagine what $20 million could do at The Landing
At least the elevators and restrooms won't smell like pee... MAYBE! How much of an investment will they need for some Pine-Sol?
It's good to see COJ thinking about selling off (or trading) some of it's real estate. The land under the Landing should be added to the list.
Good news
QuoteLanding owner Toney Sleiman has been pitching redesign plans of the Downtown dining and entertainment hub that would open the building to the St. Johns River, specifically through Laura Street, adding residential, parking and cutting some retail space.
His audience in recent weeks has been members of City Council, the Downtown Investment Authority and the city Office of Economic Development.
Sleiman said Wednesday that despite moving parts, the constant of a redesign is opening the venue to the river and Laura Street.
"Everybody has told me it's old, it's tired, it needs to be redone," he said. "I agree."
Sleiman said other aspects keep changing, such as the possibility for residential.
He said he ordered a residential study Tuesday that could be completed in 60 days. That will tell him what kind and how many residential units could be accommodated with a redesign.
Sleiman has long criticized a lack of dedicated parking. On Monday, he said he has ordered a parking study and said results should be available this month.
http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=540675
This is the new plan under discussion for the Landing. Nice article from The Daily Record
http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=540675
Quoteff Writer
The Landing retail marketplace could soon have a new — and much different — look.
Landing owner Toney Sleiman has been pitching redesign plans of the Downtown dining and entertainment hub that would open the building to the St. Johns River, specifically through Laura Street, adding residential, parking and cutting some retail space.
His audience in recent weeks has been members of City Council, the Downtown Investment Authority and the city Office of Economic Development.
Sleiman said Wednesday that despite moving parts, the constant of a redesign is opening the venue to the river and Laura Street.
"Everybody has told me it's old, it's tired, it needs to be redone," he said. "I agree."
Sleiman said other aspects keep changing, such as the possibility for residential.
He said he ordered a residential study Tuesday that could be completed in 60 days. That will tell him what kind and how many residential units could be accommodated with a redesign.
Sleiman has long criticized a lack of dedicated parking. On Monday, he said he has ordered a parking study and said results should be available this month.
Sleiman said costs have not yet been determined, but said he will eventually ask the city for incentives.
In a 2009 Daily Record interview, he said his first actions, if given a blank check to redesign the Landing, would be to "cut through the middle of the building" and add parking that proposed tenants have told him they need.
He said Wednesday that Downtown has 47,000 workers and any restaurant or venue "would love to have that captive audience."
Council member Bill Bishop said this week, "I have seen the plan and, conceptually, I like it."
Bishop said the idea is to "pretty much knock down the horseshoe, reconstruct it with a hole and opening in the middle" for a river view from Laura Street and to add parking next to the building.
Bishop, an architect by trade, said he thinks the idea is better than the existing design.
"The design is not very inviting," he said. "Once you get there, the space inside the courtyard is great ... but you have this big wall in front of the river."
Council member Jim Love said Sleiman showed him basic plans to make the structure a little smaller with more parking and the river-view opening through Laura Street.
He said he would like to see several architects review the plans before he made a judgment, but did say the Downtown venue needed a change.
"The Landing needs to be refreshed," he said. "No doubt about it."
Council President Bill Gulliford said the idea Sleiman is proposing "has some merit" but that the process should "absolutely" start with the DIA. "To not include them would be shortsighted," he said.
DIA board Chair Oliver Barakat said Sleiman has briefed him on the concept and that he believes the idea to better connect the building to the river and Laura Street corridor "is the right thing to do."
Authority board member Mike Saylor said that during a recent conversation with Sleiman, the Landing owner said he wanted to bring it before the board in October. There is no agenda yet for the Oct. 16 meeting, but Barakat said if Sleiman has a specific request, he would be placed on the list.
Sleiman said Wednesday he wanted to meet with the board this month, but given the recent changes he might hold off.
He also kept the city apprised of his ideas.
"A new master plan or renovation can only help bring more opportunities this great downtown gateway," said Ted Carter, city Office of Economic Development executive director, in a statement.
Carter said the OED has been briefed on Sleiman's plans and would work with the DIA, Sleiman and others toward Downtown revitalization
Here is another article discussing Sleiman's ideas for the Landing which include some residential.
http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2013/10/02/sleiman-mulling-residential-addition.html (click link for full story)
Quote
Ashley Gurbal Kritzer
Reporter- Jacksonville Business Journal
Residential units could be added to the Jacksonville Landing as its ownership considers a renovation.
Toney Sleiman, president and CEO of Sleiman Enterprises, which owns the Landing, said Wednesday that is he in the process of hiring a consultant to study his property and determine a viable number of units and unit size.
Sleiman in late September told the Business Journal he was working on a renovation of the Landing but wasn't yet ready to reveal many details, other than to say the work would include repainting and new lighting.
Sleiman said he wants to consult with developers Alex Coley, principal of Hallmark Partners Inc., developer 220 Riverside, and Mike Balanky, president of Chase Properties Inc., which developed the San Marco Place condominium tower.
Coley has said that adding residential to the Landing would be successful.
"With meaningful retail and residential, I think that they have the best shot of anyone I can think of executing residential in that epicenter location," he told the Business Journal in September.