The Paramount End User of Downtown
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-4315-dsc_0003.JPG)
Downtown's Most Important Consumer and a strategy of misplaced priorities that must be overcome in order to make downtown viable again.
Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/752
Where should we put the day center? I think this is a cause we should try to rally the MJ community to pressure our leaders to make some changes.
Do we have examples of successful day centers from other cities? Should we pressure some of the service providers to move?
Doesnt every inner city have this issue? I know when I was in Denver in Oct for a convention, I stayed downtown at the Hilton thats near the convention center and as we drove into downtown we pasted what the cab driver called "vaigrant island" or something like that. It was were the homeless shelter, food bank and a few other centers for homeless were located, there must have been atleast 150 homeless in one area. But it was just outside of the core.
This really is a problem. I have friends come over from Holland all the time and I always take them downtown for a walk but everytime we are asked:"can you spare a dollar" at least 4 or 5 times. It becomes annoying and embarrasing. We should come up with another place where we can accomodate these people.
Jacksonville doesn't want to hear this, and it appears even MetroJacksonville.com has felt the social/political pressure to sugar-coat the truth, but the 3 underlying causes of this city's downtown vagrancy problem are:
1. 5 decades of NIMBY-ism -- for 50 years everybody lived in the suburbs, so downtown became the best location for all social service facilities. This nimby-ism still exists, but as popularity, convenience and common sense of urban living grows, it is slowly reversing.
2. Jacksonville's geographic location on the major N/S route on the eastern seaboard (I-95), and at the end of a major E/W route (I-10). Has anyone else noticed that our transient population grows during Spring and Fall when they are traveling to and from the most climatically favorable places to camp?
3. The enormous amount of Christian guilt over the haves/havenots situation in Jacksonville. It is well-documented that Jacksonville is known as a homeless-friendly city nationwide, and Christian action alone has not created this problem. But mix Christian guilt with Jacksonville's geographic location and NIMBY-ism, and the goodness of providing for less-fortunate brethren is lost to providing a temporary dumping ground where transients will have the least impact on the daily lives of those doing the "giving".
Set up a suburban day camp (maybe more than one since Jacksonville is so vagrant-friendly), move at least 1/2 of the other social services out of 1st and 2nd ring communities, and there is a possibility the downtown situation could improve. But don't expect social service orgs and churches to jump on board with this solution -- it hits 'em too hard in their theology.
Quote from: zoo on April 01, 2008, 08:40:55 AM
Jacksonville doesn't want to hear this, and it appears even MetroJacksonville.com has felt the social/political pressure to sugar-coat the truth, but the 3 underlying causes of this city's downtown vagrancy problem are:
1. 5 decades of NIMBY-ism -- for 50 years everybody lived in the suburbs, so downtown became the best location for all social service facilities. This nimby-ism still exists, but as popularity, convenience and common sense of urban living grows, it is slowly reversing.
2. Jacksonville's geographic location on the major N/S route on the eastern seaboard (I-95), and at the end of a major E/W route (I-10). Has anyone else noticed that our transient population grows during Spring and Fall when they are traveling to and from the most climatically favorable places to camp?
3. The enormous amount of Christian guilt over the haves/havenots situation in Jacksonville. It is well-documented that Jacksonville is known as a homeless-friendly city nationwide, and Christian action alone has not created this problem. But mix Christian guilt with Jacksonville's geographic location and NIMBY-ism, and the goodness of providing for less-fortunate brethren is lost to providing a temporary dumping ground where transients will have the least impact on the daily lives of those doing the "giving".
Set up a suburban day camp (maybe more than one since Jacksonville is so vagrant-friendly), move at least 1/2 of the other social services out of 1st and 2nd ring communities, and there is a possibility the downtown situation could improve. But don't expect social service orgs and churches to jump on board with this solution -- it hits 'em too hard in their theology.
Wow, we get knocked for being intolerant, then we get knocked for being to kind and caring, and what does "hit them to hard in their theology" mean? Its not my nature to take a discussion here, you will never find me forcing my beliefs on anyone, its not my job, but I am a christian, even a southern baptist minister, even though I havent "worked" for a church in a few years.
Quote from: zoo on April 01, 2008, 08:40:55 AM
3. The enormous amount of Christian guilt over the haves/havenots situation in Jacksonville. It is well-documented that Jacksonville is known as a homeless-friendly city nationwide, and Christian action alone has not created this problem. But mix Christian guilt with Jacksonville's geographic location and NIMBY-ism, and the goodness of providing for less-fortunate brethren is lost to providing a temporary dumping ground where transients will have the least impact on the daily lives of those doing the "giving".
Set up a suburban day camp (maybe more than one since Jacksonville is so vagrant-friendly), move at least 1/2 of the other social services out of 1st and 2nd ring communities, and there is a possibility the downtown situation could improve. But don't expect social service orgs and churches to jump on board with this solution -- it hits 'em too hard in their theology.
The churches will jump on board if there is a good place to center the day time life of the homeless. This will make it easier for Christian and other services to be done. As long as it is not a blight we are subjecting people to Christians will jump for joy at this. They help the homeless downtown because that is where they are. This is a bad policy, for reasons already explained on this thread, but it is not some feeling that God's work can only be done in downtown.
If you need to take a cheap shot at Christians or others for helping people try to come up with something reasonable. Saying that Christians guilt insists that homeless people panhandle and poop on the street is mean spirited and dumb to the point of being pathetic.
Adam, glad someone was brave, or crazy, enough to reply to my pot-stirring post.
As I said, I do not believe that Christianity alone is the cause of the problem. It is Christianity coupled with the other two factors.
We can't do anything about geographic location.
Nimby-ism can be changed. But not without looking hard at the Christianity issue. "I want to be a good Christian, but I don't want to have to look at those less fortunate in my surroundings regularly." Can Jacksonvillian's, other than those with social services in their communities already, be ok with changing this thinking? I doubt it. Let me know when Christians living in Marsh Landing, Ponte Vedra, Queen's Harbor, or even Mandarin, will open their community's doors to a social service org. They won't, but you can bet they'll keep giving, proudly declaring what great givers they are, and making sure the results don't hit too close to home.
I'm not taking a cheap shot at Christians (I am one), nor did I say that Christianity causes vagrants, or whomever, to defecate on downtown sidewalks.
If nimby-ism can't realistically be changed either, then the only objective solution may be to look hard at the giving. Jacksonville can take the award for being the most Christian city, and be proud of that. But then it may also have to take the award for most vagrant-friendly city, and be happy with that. If we were, this thread wouldn't exist in the first place. I don't fault anyone for being Christian and/or giving, but this city has a problem to solve that might require some city-wide self-reflection.
What I mean when I say it "hits them in their theology" is that to deal with the homeless problem, objectivity may have to replace (at the very least, be given equal weight as) local Christian practice.
Quote from: zoo on April 01, 2008, 09:42:58 AM
Adam, glad someone was brave, or crazy, enough to reply to my pot-stirring post.
As I said, I do not believe that Christianity alone is the cause of the problem. It is Christianity coupled with the other two factors.
We can't do anything about geographic location.
Nimby-ism can be changed. But not without looking hard at the Christianity issue. "I want to be a good Christian, but I don't want to have to look at those less fortunate in my surroundings regularly." Can Jacksonvillian's, other than those with social services in their communities already, be ok with changing this thinking? I doubt it. Let me know when Christians living in Marsh Landing, Ponte Vedra, Queen's Harbor, or even Mandarin, will open their community's doors to a social service org. They won't, but you can bet they'll keep giving, proudly declaring what great givers they are, and making sure the results don't hit too close to home.
I'm not taking a cheap shot at Christians (I am one), nor did I say that Christianity causes vagrants, or whomever, to defecate on downtown sidewalks.
If nimby-ism can't realistically be changed either, then the only objective solution may be to look hard at the giving. Jacksonville can take the award for being the most Christian city, and be proud of that. But then it may also have to take the award for most vagrant-friendly city, and be happy with that. If we were, this thread wouldn't exist in the first place. I don't fault anyone for being Christian and/or giving, but this city has a problem to solve that might require some city-wide self-reflection.
What I mean when I say it "hits them in their theology" is that to deal with the homeless problem, objectivity may have to replace (at the very least, be given equal weight as) local Christian practice.
This brings up a conflict in my personal theology, Although I pay my tithe, sometimes I think Christians lose the fact that its not about how much MONEY you give, but also about how much TIME you are willing to give. The Acts Chapter 2 commision says GO into all the earth... There was a church I worked with that provided services to vaigrant and poor on Main street, It used to be North Main Street Baptist Church, and some of the greatest times was working with those kids and people who had nothing, actually hearing these peoples stories and talking to them. I have played the guitar for about 14 years and my band was the "house" band at this church for a couple of months. Sometimes its easy to give money, but a whole different ballgame to give your time.
I haven't read the article and I will do when I get some free time, but I agree with the statement that every city deals with this problem. However, most municipalities don't have the brunt of their social services centers located in the middle of the exact same area they want residential, tourism and commercial development to take place in. If you look at a map, Hemming Plaza is really ground zero, which is a bad thing if you want to attract suburbanites, yuppies and people with small children in the exact same space.
Would a day center help? Sure, to some degree. However, if we really want to overcome this situation, we need to find a way to relocate/redistribute these services, thus shifting the epicenter. I still think that the Dennis Street area, which is filled with obsolete abandoned brick warehousing is a centralized location where many of these services could be provided without having a negative effect on their surroundings.
Hi all;
Well, everyone else put their two cents in, so I'll add my dollar to it.
Yes, homelessness is a problem in not only Jacksonville, but also numerous other inner cities, cities, and towns around the nation and of course the world. As an advocate for the homeless, and also the Executive Director of an Agency that addresses homelessness and helps those that are needy, disadvantaged and underprivileged, I will say that it's very easy for those who have never been homeless to talk about it, or even make suggestions while in their comfortable cozy havens, on how to alleviate or eradicate homelessness. Yes, homelessness is a problem, but the problem lies much deeper than just being homeless.
One of you, in your post, pointed towards the mentally ill, etc. Well being mentally ill is a problem, and if not addressed or that person admitted to the appropriate medical facility or mental hospital to ADDRESS THAT ISSUE AND NEED, then they will be out on the street (homeless), and will defacate, urinate, and utter blasphemies (many of whom do this unknowingly) to the populace, and yes, be a nuisance.
You're probably saying, where is he going with this? The United States, that is, the Cities, Towns, Villages, etc. within this great nation spend and waste billions on numerous items and issues that are worthless, unfounded, or unneeded. Let's face it, the issue of homelessness is a great and huge problem, and will continue to be unless we address "the need" that will "fix the problem." Many of you will say, "well that's not my problem and they probably want to live that way and set themselves up to be where they are;" in the majority of the cases this is as far from the truth as Alpha Centauri is from Planet Earth. As an advocate for the homeless, and one who is in contact with them daily, I am here to tell you that the majority of them want out, didn't see it coming until it hit them, and yearn big time to be back in the "normal mainstream of society."
The problem is no one wants to help them, or let me put this another way; no one wants to help them in the right and correct manner. It's easy to give out plates of food, clothing, or temporary shelter, but if you do this daily you're just feeding and even encouraging their homelessness. So you ask, what is the solution? Well a few of you hit the nail on the head; there are underlying root problems that cause homelessness such as drug use and abuse, alcohol use and abuse, prostitution, dead beat dads, disabilities (mostly Vets), sexual deviants and offenders, mental illnesses, chronic or even acute financial problems, and there are some people who become homeless simply because they didn't know what to do in a certain situation and didn't know where to turn. The solution is to address the problems, head on and with aggression, that cause homelessness. What I mean by address is initiate and create programs that are designed and will in fact eliminate and eradicate all of the aforementioned problems and other problems not listed that cause homelessness.
Many social service agencies are sorely lacking in providing such programs within their program curriculum in order to adddress and eliminate these problems. The goal of each social service agency (and this is the goal for us even though we're small and of course strapped for cash), should be to address and eliminate these problems that cause homelessness and return these valuable individuals back into the normal mainstream of society; and I may be wrong, maybe the majority of the agencies do have such stated goals, but funds prevent them from moving forward with such a program or programs.
I hate to say it and this will hurt but here goes; again it's easy for us who live in our nice homes and who have good jobs and transportation, to point at homelessness and say this or that. None of you in this forum or in the world will never fully understand homelessness unless you've been there, or will never be sympathetic in the right or respectful way and frame of mind until you have been homeless; and I hope to God none of you will ever be. I had the privilege of tasting of the rotten fruit of homelesness; no I am not a druggie or alcoholic and never have been; but medical issues and other issues beyond my control careened me into the homeless arena; and there I was. I learned from all of that and took it as a calling from God to help those in need. The way that most of you can help is by really analyzing this email and sending it to City Government Officials, Social Service Agencies in your area or even the State, and also do your part by donating, whenever you can, to the appropriate social service agency or agencies in your area that you feel have such a program or programs that are truly addressing the root problem causes of homelessness, and not just giving out meals, temporary shelter and food.
I go by the name of "HEIGHTS UNKNOWN" in the forum, but I am Garry B. Coston, a 20 year Naval Veteran (spent over half in Jacksonville and was born in Jacksonville), was homeless for a short while in Fort Lauderdale after I left the Navy, and am now the Executive Director and Chairman of FRESH START Social Service Agency, Inc., serving Sarasota and Manatee Counties Florida, and the State of Florida, and have served many around the nation in isolated cases. Feel free to call me or email me at any time by acquiring my contact info at our website: (http://www.freshstartreferral.com).
Thanks everyone, and I hope this email opened your eyes a little more regarding the homeless problem and/or issue.
God bless! HEIGHTS UNKNOWN (Garry B. Coston)
Yes, we have to count our blessings!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIUCTbi_XZs&feature=related
Having said this I want to go beyond the question why and religious issues.
Having many homeless people in downtown is a big problem. What are the humane and effective possibilities te resolve this problem?
Hi Beloki;
Please read my post just previous to yours; these are the answers to homelessness!
Now if you want me to be more definitive I can be, but that would be giving out part of of our program operational procedures and curriculum which is classified; but we (FRESH START) have a definitive plan; but I generally iterated the mission and goal(s) that each Agency, or even the City Government should have parallell with working with their local social service agencies, in eliminating the problems that cause homelessness.
Thanks. Garry - http://www.freshstartreferral.com
Quote from: heights unknown on April 01, 2008, 10:26:10 AM
Hi Beloki;
Please read my post just previous to yours; these are the answers to homelessness!
Now if you want me to be more definitive I can be, but that would be giving out part of of our program operational procedures and curriculum which is classified; but we (FRESH START) have a definitive plan; but I generally iterated the mission and goal(s) that each Agency, or even the City Government should have parallell with working with their local social service agencies, in eliminating the problems that cause homelessness.
Thanks. Garry - http://www.freshstartreferral.com
I think its a two way street. The city has goals as well and both entities need to work together to carry out those goals. This means we also have to take into account the desire to bring vibrancy back to the core, centered around Hemming Plaza. Is there a way to deal with these issues, without alienating either party's vision?
i have a friend who says, "How many consecutive bad decisions do you have to make to end up homeless here in America?"
and think about it - these foreigners who come over here with NOTHING - many times only the clothes on their back - and they don't end up homeless...in fact, they go on to start their own businesses and lead successful lives in our land of opportunity.
have said that, i do think there is room for compassion even still. having said THAT though, i think many homeless subconciously choose the lifestyle because it affords them the luxury of not having to get a job. i have personal experience with individuals of this mentality.
i wouldn't say that is racy at all...that is completely what we are looking for on here.
Where was the video of the people sleeping on a sidewalk taken?
5. The Library Bathrooms on all four floors, during almost the entire day, are filled with people showering, shaving and clogging the air with an almost unbearable stench.
7. There are almost no outdoor seating cafes in the downtown because of the incredibly aggressive panhandling that takes place at tableside whenever such ventures are attempted.
5) I go in the Library all the time-- never have I seen a homeless person in one, let alone using it as a showering facility.
7) I eat lunch in the middle of Hemming plaza all the time, right in the middle of homeless people and they never approach me, let alone make me feel unsafe.
Also, whoever is harassing the homeless guy in the third of stephen's videos is a piece of shit-- I hope he develops a mental illness, loses his home, and is forced to walk the streets, shitting his pants. "We don't want your kind down here-- who the fuck does this guy think he is? If it is the La Cena owner, that guy is on notice that not only will I never eat in his restaurant, but also, when people ask me for recommendations on eating downtown (which they often do as I live and work here) I will tell them what a shitbag he is (if that wasn't him, my apologies Mr. La Cena).
Jesus, does not one have any empathy anymore? Go to ANY major city in America and this is what downtown looks like. People who think we won't have downtown development until the homeless somehow disappear, is living in some sort of fantasy land. In short, realize that but for the grace of God, there goes you.
Stephen-
Yeah, I didn't have a problem with the article (didn't even realize you were the author). Rather, I felt I was arguing against what I hear from practically EVERYONE in Jax regarding downtown, and I think your article captured all their collective thoughts and presented the pro & con nicely. I have nothing against what you are writing, just the opinions of so many in Jax that downtown-- even in the daytime-- is unsafe*, which I have never felt, even when walking home to Springfield from TSI at 1 AM.
* granted, I am a 6 ft plus dude, but still.
Hi Driven;
Great post; I agree with all that you said; and yes, people from other countries who come to America, who probably had it really bad in those countries, come here, "turn to," as we used to say in the Navy, and end up upper Middle Class or higher; this is basically true. We in America are basically spoiled and are privy and exposed to numerous opportunities from birth on up, and there should be no excuse for anyone to become homeless, this I agree with. In addition, most of us in this country take everything for granted and don't really think about what we are doing but feel life should be handed to us on a silver platter; not so. We have to work and work hard to obtain real success unless it is in fact handed to us on a silver platter.
That being said, regardless of WHY people end up homeless the bottom line is, when they end up that way, they do need a helping hand. Relook at my post at the numerous problems that beset the homeless that contribute or cause them to be homeless. Many of these are social problems, some or most stemming from childhood, others psychological, others medical or medically physical (handiciap/disabilities), and others out of pure stupidity or negligence. Don't get me wrong guys, I am not trying to give an excuse for the homeless being the way that they are; but I am trying to get everyone to see that there is much more to homelessness than what most see on the surface, and also to get everyone to see underneath the dirt and grime so you will know exactly some or most of the items and issues that cause homelessness.
True people from other countries come here with nothing, work hard and scrimp, scratch and save, then bounce back, and eventually live good or are even quasi-rich so to speak; but most of them that come here are not beset with many of the social ills and problems such as drug use/abuse, alcoholism, dead beat dads, child molesters, disabled, etc. What I am saying is this: We can sit back and talk about the problem, or even in a negative light belittle it; but sometimes we do this without fully understanding the crap that contributes to the dirt and grime; do you feel me? So, if they are homeless, and need help, and truly understand why they are homeless, how they got there, and what they need to do to return as productive members of society, I believe our job as social servants, and citizens of our great country, is to give and provide them the help that they need. We do it for other countries and sendd trillions around the world...most for stupid incendiary reasons, so why not do it for our own?
Heights Unknown :)
Thanks Stephendare; we try hard at Avis! :)
I think one good solution would be for each City to have a good location, and not necessarily downtown, for the homeless. And I am not talking "day care." I am talking about a Center/Shelter with Compound. Not only would it have food, clothing, and temporary shelter services, but it would also house intense counseling and assistance programs addressing each problematic need for the homeless person, i.e., drug/alcohol, financial, prison/Jail, Medical Problems, Disability/Handicapped, Family Problems (teen, domestic, dead beat dads, etc.), employment/day labor/jobs, etc. The center would have to be of a good size to take care of most or all of the homeless population for that area. But again, the Center would not only temporarily house the homeless, but the main mission and goal would be to attack and eliminate the social ills and problems that caused that person to be homeless.
People really try to overthink this issue and try to moralize too much. The solution to the homeless situation is quite simple: Return to the 1950s policy of mass arrests for drunks, bums, vagrants and the mentally ill. The mentally ill will then be committed to a state mental hospital for a period of years, not days, in order to get the proper treatment for their problems. Drunks/drug addicts will be held in secure treatment facilities for months to dry them out. And, the perpetually lazy will now spend their leisure time in jail. And by doing this, you will allow the sane and legitimate citizens and taxpayers and their families to feel safe and welcome in downtown again.
So, there you have it. Problem solved. Now, admittedly this is difficult to implement as it will require a conservative judiciary and some backbone on the City Council, but the road map is right there and the route is clear.
It seems like many of you have thought about this. We have been offered what seems like a good solution in the article. Can we cite an example of a city that solved this problem is there a model we can emulate.
Quote from: RiversideGator on April 01, 2008, 06:13:50 PM
People really try to overthink this issue and.....blah....blah....blah....
So, there you have it. Problem solved. Now, admittedly this is difficult to implement as it will require a conservative judiciary and some backbone on the City Council, but the road map is right there and the route is clear.
Well... that's certainly one thing
you don't do, ....overthink this issue.
RG: when was the last time you went to jail? A lot of the arrested would love your plan as to them its a roof over their heads and three square meals with tv and remote. The cost is soaring as too. I don't want to pay for that. Okay I would pay for blue colar crimes, robbery and battery/loss of life. The 50s vs 2000? That's a stretch
Quote from: JeffreyS on April 01, 2008, 06:36:04 PM
It seems like many of you have thought about this. We have been offered what seems like a good solution in the article. Can we cite an example of a city that solved this problem is there a model we can emulate.
Jacksonville circa 1950
Quote from: Midway on April 01, 2008, 08:07:07 PM
Quote from: RiversideGator on April 01, 2008, 06:13:50 PM
People really try to overthink this issue and.....blah....blah....blah....
So, there you have it. Problem solved. Now, admittedly this is difficult to implement as it will require a conservative judiciary and some backbone on the City Council, but the road map is right there and the route is clear.
Well... that's certainly one thing you don't do, ....overthink this issue.
I dont recall accusing you of thinking, Midway. I was talking about the others.
Thank you. I don't know what the answer is for the ones that need other solutions; however, for the ones that we can fix I'm sure there's more of a cost effective solution then just throwing them in jail.
NYC gives out "tickets" that the recreational user has to pay. As far as the homeless, I'll never forget the testimony of one saying, "I just want to go upstairs and have a place to sleep and some food." The honorable judge told this person, "I can't keep sending you up there...it's not a hotel."
Quote from: gatorback on April 01, 2008, 08:55:45 PM
RG: when was the last time you went to jail? A lot of the arrested would love your plan as to them its a roof over their heads and three square meals with tv and remote. The cost is soaring as too. I don't want to pay for that. Okay I would pay for blue colar crimes, robbery and battery/loss of life. The 50s vs 2000? That's a stretch
Actually, I worked in the Duval County jail for about a year. It sucks. It is a stretch to say that people would prefer life there to finding a job and a place to live.
Note that this solution only applies to those who choose to be lazy and beg downtown. The real insane would be treated and not in jail either (if I were King). It really amuses me how these do gooders believe that it is better for the insane to be living on the streets in their own filth than for them to be in secure treatment facilities. Which policy is really humane?
Quote from: adamh0903 on April 01, 2008, 08:34:07 AM
Doesnt every inner city have this issue? I know when I was in Denver in Oct for a convention, I stayed downtown at the Hilton thats near the convention center and as we drove into downtown we pasted what the cab driver called "vaigrant island" or something like that. It was were the homeless shelter, food bank and a few other centers for homeless were located, there must have been atleast 150 homeless in one area. But it was just outside of the core.
Yes man!!! Every major city has this situation(not a problem)...I don't get this topic. I mean who cares??? If homeless people keep you from going where YOU WANT TO GO, then that just means you didn't want to be there to begin with. I have been to a few major American cities and the homeless are always around. They are not going anywhere. Leave em be. If they ask for money tell em NO and keep it moving!! They ain't animals. Hemming Plaza and the Main Library were some of my favorite places to kick it, even played a few chess games with some the of the homeless's best lol. Jacksonville is a CITY!!! Not a frigging town country bunkers!!!
Eeewwwww look the homeless.....OMG the homeless.....I mean really? No disrespect but these are some dumb ass responses. In a way it sorta irritates me how people want Jacksonville to have the BIG CITY LIFESTYLE but only want certain parts of it. Bums come with the BIG CITY LIFESTYLE folks. Peace
Quote from: RiversideGator on April 02, 2008, 12:15:36 AM
Actually, I worked in the Duval County jail for about a year. It sucks. It is a stretch to say that people would prefer life there to finding a job and a place to live.
Note that this solution only applies to those who choose to be lazy and beg downtown. The real insane would be treated and not in jail either (if I were King). It really amuses me how these do gooders believe that it is better for the insane to be living on the streets in their own filth than for them to be in secure treatment facilities. Which policy is really humane?
Congratulations. This post makes sense. It seems very different in tone from the previous one.
BTW, would you be willing to finance these secure treatment facilities through increased taxes? Issuance of bonds? What would be your suggestion, inasmuch as these facilities either do not presently exist or are already at capacity. I agree with you that the mentally ill component within the homeless population should be treated, but what facility exists for that?
Then by extension, if the mentally ill are not animals, and do not deserve to be living on the street, what about another demographic component of the homeless population, say, the person who is just poor and homeless? I don't think that they are all truly a "criminal element", although I am sure that there is certainly a portion that are.
But again, secure treatment is a great idea, as long as someone can be found to finance it, probably the taxpayers of Duval county. And keep in mind when it opens, that it will become a magnet facility for the whole country, because it will be a first of its kind, so you may have to limit it to in-state native born vagrants only.
Like it has been pointed out above, jail is an expensive option, probably more expensive than implementing treatment programs that would get at the core of the problem. Anyone have hard numbers on this?
Every city has these problems. In cities with a wider variety of folks hanging around downtown the homeless blend in and make up less percentage numbers wise.
Quote from: Coolyfett on April 02, 2008, 02:54:43 AM
Quote from: adamh0903 on April 01, 2008, 08:34:07 AM
Doesnt every inner city have this issue? I know when I was in Denver in Oct for a convention, I stayed downtown at the Hilton thats near the convention center and as we drove into downtown we pasted what the cab driver called "vaigrant island" or something like that. It was were the homeless shelter, food bank and a few other centers for homeless were located, there must have been atleast 150 homeless in one area. But it was just outside of the core.
Yes man!!! Every major city has this situation(not a problem)...I don't get this topic. I mean who cares??? If homeless people keep you from going where YOU WANT TO GO, then that just means you didn't want to be there to begin with. I have been to a few major American cities and the homeless are always around. They are not going anywhere. Leave em be. If they ask for money tell em NO and keep it moving!! They ain't animals. Hemming Plaza and the Main Library were some of my favorite places to kick it, even played a few chess games with some the of the homeless's best lol. Jacksonville is a CITY!!! Not a frigging town country bunkers!!!
Eeewwwww look the homeless.....OMG the homeless.....I mean really? No disrespect but these are some dumb ass responses. In a way it sorta irritates me how people want Jacksonville to have the BIG CITY LIFESTYLE but only want certain parts of it. Bums come with the BIG CITY LIFESTYLE folks. Peace
I disagree - having spent time in many urban areas (San Diego, Portland, Chicago, and Miami most recently), we are far and away, worse than any of the four I just mentioned. Yes, part of the issue is that with nobody downtown, the homeless approach the random person that they can find. This gives the perception to people that the homeless are coming after them (not true, but a perception). In real cities, the homeless just sit there with a sign while hundreds of people pass them every day.
The other issue is that we've collected all of the social service centers downtown, which exacerbates the issue. Furthermore, Jacksonville is a large city areawise, and when anyone is arrested anywhere in the county, they are brough downtown and released downtown.
Until we solve this issue, the problem will not go away.
I'm wondering why anyone in their right mind would open up a business downtown? I mean I can understand if you're a non-profit catering to the needy or a church group doing the same, but anything else and you're really just asking for it. If you try to run them off you're labelled a racist or a bigot. If you ask for help from the city you're laughed at, so what is a business owner to do? I'm guessing open out at the beach or in one of the cushy suburbs where all these do gooders live. You know the do gooders, those that work at catering to the homeless live in suburban communities where they'd never stand for the stuff that happens downtown.
I live downtown and put up with this all the time. See these groups with their "homeless" feedings like there's a bunch of hungry homeless downtown, Ha thats funny. I happen to live near the headquarters for a group that caters to the homeless, so I decided to see where the people who work at this "charity" live. Lets see, fruit cove, Mandarin, Avondale, Ponte Vedra.. yeah real bleeding heart types, you know the kind, the lexus liberal or here in Jax they'd be a "compassionate" conservative. Either way, none actually lived downtown or near downtown. Go figure huh?
Hey come down to the food not bombs free food giveaway every Sunday on Main St near the Pearl between 1st and 2nd... I hear the group Beer not bombs will be joining them for a free beer giveaway this weekend. Afterall isn't free beer what the people want anyway? And hey, for the Food Not Bombs people who came with the food last wekend, nice Lexus SUV! Way to drive in from your comfy suburban enclave to mix with us urban pioneers...fill those SUV's with premium do ya? effing bleeding hearts
Quote from: walter on April 02, 2008, 11:05:01 AM
I'm wondering why anyone in their right mind would open up a business downtown? I mean I can understand if you're a non-profit catering to the needy or a church group doing the same, but anything else and you're really just asking for it. If you try to run them off you're labelled a racist or a bigot. If you ask for help from the city you're laughed at, so what is a business owner to do? I'm guessing open out at the beach or in one of the cushy suburbs where all these do gooders live. You know the do gooders, those that work at catering to the homeless live in suburban communities where they'd never stand for the stuff that happens downtown.
I live downtown and put up with this all the time. See these groups with their "homeless" feedings like there's a bunch of hungry homeless downtown, Ha thats funny. I happen to live near the headquarters for a group that caters to the homeless, so I decided to see where the people who work at this "charity" live. Lets see, fruit cove, Mandarin, Avondale, Ponte Vedra.. yeah real bleeding heart types, you know the kind, the lexus liberal or here in Jax they'd be a "compassionate" conservative. Either way, none actually lived downtown or near downtown. Go figure huh?
Your post started out good, then ended up being about the most ignorant thing I have ever read on MJ. Just because somebody choses not to live downtown means they cant come down and help? Or atleast do what THEY think is helping? Or if they come down and help they better be driving a 1993 Nissan Sentra, is that what you are saying. I agree 100% with the post that said until we solve the issue the problem will not go away, and the issue is the fact that almost all Services for these people are located downtown. Move some of these services out of the core. But to judge people on what they do by where they live and what they drive is about the most small minded thing I have ever heard
Hey come down to the food not bombs free food giveaway every Sunday on Main St near the Pearl between 1st and 2nd... I hear the group Beer not bombs will be joining them for a free beer giveaway this weekend. Afterall isn't free beer what the people want anyway? And hey, for the Food Not Bombs people who came with the food last wekend, nice Lexus SUV! Way to drive in from your comfy suburban enclave to mix with us urban pioneers...fill those SUV's with premium do ya? effing bleeding hearts
Quote from: walter on April 02, 2008, 11:05:01 AM
I'm wondering why anyone in their right mind would open up a business downtown? I mean I can understand if you're a non-profit catering to the needy or a church group doing the same, but anything else and you're really just asking for it. If you try to run them off you're labelled a racist or a bigot. If you ask for help from the city you're laughed at, so what is a business owner to do? I'm guessing open out at the beach or in one of the cushy suburbs where all these do gooders live. You know the do gooders, those that work at catering to the homeless live in suburban communities where they'd never stand for the stuff that happens downtown.
I live downtown and put up with this all the time. See these groups with their "homeless" feedings like there's a bunch of hungry homeless downtown, Ha thats funny. I happen to live near the headquarters for a group that caters to the homeless, so I decided to see where the people who work at this "charity" live. Lets see, fruit cove, Mandarin, Avondale, Ponte Vedra.. yeah real bleeding heart types, you know the kind, the lexus liberal or here in Jax they'd be a "compassionate" conservative. Either way, none actually lived downtown or near downtown. Go figure huh?
Hey come down to the food not bombs free food giveaway every Sunday on Main St near the Pearl between 1st and 2nd... I hear the group Beer not bombs will be joining them for a free beer giveaway this weekend. Afterall isn't free beer what the people want anyway? And hey, for the Food Not Bombs people who came with the food last wekend, nice Lexus SUV! Way to drive in from your comfy suburban enclave to mix with us urban pioneers...fill those SUV's with premium do ya? effing bleeding hearts
Your post started out good, then ended up being about the most ignorant thing I have ever read on MJ. Just because somebody choses not to live downtown means they cant come down and help? Or atleast do what THEY think is helping? Or if they come down and help they better be driving a 1993 Nissan Sentra, is that what you are saying. I agree 100% with the post that said until we solve the issue the problem will not go away, and the issue is the fact that almost all Services for these people are located downtown. Move some of these services out of the core. But to judge people on what they do by where they live and what they drive is about the most small minded thing I have ever heard
Quote from: adamh0903 on April 02, 2008, 11:40:42 AM
But to judge people on what they do by where they live and what they drive is about the most small minded thing I have ever heard
typical liberal demogogue, you must be the one from switzerland in the BMW station wagon. ;D
Quote from: adamh0903 on April 02, 2008, 11:40:42 AM
Just because somebody choses not to live downtown means they cant come down and help? Or atleast do what THEY think is helping?
and exactly what is coming downtown to hand out free food in styrofoam boxes (that are just going to end up in some gutter) doing to help? Who's being helped other than the materialistic guilty conscience of the suburban nimby handing out the box? I propose that by doing exactly that, which you feel is ignorant, is actually helping noone. So go ahead and dismiss as ignorant that which you disagree, but next time you take a good look into the mirror I suspect that you'll see that which you ascribe to others.
Walter, What do you consider helping?
Quote from: stephenc on April 02, 2008, 02:12:35 PM
Walter, What do you consider helping?
well lets see... other cities have set up parking meters that accept money that goes to providing shelter to the homeless http://www.thestar.com/printArticle/247725 instead of giving a hand out the money in the meter is given to local shelters.
how about a hand up instead of a hand out. Maybe all you suburbanites who want to "help" so much can come take one of the numerous homeless home with you, provide some real shelter and food, instead of the temporary makeshift feel good handouts that you provide now. Come take some back to your neighborhood, set up a shelter there..... host a homeless event at your favorite shopping mecca, the Towne Center. How about a homeless feeding out in your street. Rent a bus, come and get a busload give them some food, clothes and let them see how the other side lives. Let them use your bathroom instead of a business owners front door.
Its easier to come down where people like me live and do your good deeds here rather than in your uber cloistered whitebread neighborhood where you don't have to actually live with them and can label those of us who do ignorant bigots... hey if thats what makes you feel good about yourself, go ahead come give your handouts and throw your labels we who have to deal with this daily aren't going to shut up!
Quote from: walter on April 02, 2008, 02:52:18 PM
Quote from: stephenc on April 02, 2008, 02:12:35 PM
Walter, What do you consider helping?
well lets see... other cities have set up parking meters that accept money that goes to providing shelter to the homeless http://www.thestar.com/printArticle/247725 instead of giving a hand out the money in the meter is given to local shelters.
how about a hand up instead of a hand out. Maybe all you suburbanites who want to "help" so much can come take one of the numerous homeless home with you, provide some real shelter and food, instead of the temporary makeshift feel good handouts that you provide now. Come take some back to your neighborhood, set up a shelter there. How about a homeless feeding out in your street. Rent a bus, come and get a busload give them some food, clothes and let them see how the other side lives. Let them use your bathroom instead of a business owners front door.
Its easier to come down where people like me live and do your good deeds here rather than in your uber cloistered whitebread neighborhood where you don't have to actually live with them and can label those of us who do ignorant bigots... hey if thats what makes you feel good about yourself, go ahead come give your handouts and throw your labels we who have to deal with this daily aren't going to shut up!
Kinda seems to me you offer no real solution, but would rather someone else "rent a bus" and take them away because YOU dont want to deal with them where YOU live, but would care less if someone else had to deal with them were they lived.
I have also re-read the posts nowhere has anyone told the people who deal with this issue daily to "shut-up" or have you been called a "ignorant bigot" like you say you have been labeled. I simply stated that the insults that you throw around based on what people drive and where they live and what they conisder "helping out" IS ignorant. Have you ever thought, maybe these people who live outside the city dont realize they are not helping out the situation by going into the core and just handing out food, have you ever tried to contact leaders, and get them to encourage social servies and organizations outside the citys core to do more than just hand out food, that there is more to the problem than hungry homless. Or have you already sterotyped all of us "suburbanites" as people who really dont care but what to satify our guilt
....by the way, I drive a KIA, not a BMW live in nassau county, not switzerland and have 4 homeless people who live in a tent in the woods 100 yards from by business who I see in here on a daily basis
Walter, sounds as if you just dont want to deal with them yourself. I'm the first to say handouts dont work and i believe most are in the situation they're in because they refuse to better their lives. They choose to live they way they leave. But busing them from one location to another wont fix the problem and you acting like an ass on here to people who try to offer solutions while you offer no solutions of your own is just pointless. If any one if through labels its you buddy. Im sure they're a quite a few labels we could through at you based on the comments you speak about "white" surburanites but there is no need to go there.
Quote from: adamh0903 on April 02, 2008, 02:58:14 PM
Kinda seems to me you offer no real solution, but would rather someone else "rent a bus" and take them away because YOU dont want to deal with them where YOU live, but would care less if someone else had to deal with them were they lived.
hey maybe you're not an ignoramus afterall! :D and I'd be happy to rent that bus...as to the "real" solution if you find one let everyone know cause I'm pretty sure that every city that has this problem would love to know. Relying on me for the "real" solution is hilarious after all I'm ignant, you da one wit da schoolin Captn Kia.
Oh and those guys living in the tent down in the woods, like Matt Foley http://youtube.com/watch?v=lFPp5WfE-Yg
Quote from: stephenc on April 02, 2008, 03:10:38 PM
Im sure they're a quite a few labels we could through at you based on the comments you speak about "white" surburanites but there is no need to go there.
lemme guess..... Jax public school grad? gotcha.
I am all for bus tickets to get them out of town. Or a work camp so they can get off drugs and get used to regular steady work. If one asks me for "30 cents", my typical answer is "if you have change for a 9mm. That slum downtown has to go. It only enabled drug dealers and pseudo activists who take advantage of the situation.
Quote from: walter on April 02, 2008, 03:16:30 PM
Quote from: stephenc on April 02, 2008, 03:10:38 PM
Im sure they're a quite a few labels we could through at you based on the comments you speak about "white" surburanites but there is no need to go there.
lemme guess..... Jax public school grad? gotcha.
wow. another label. what's the point? I regret to inform you that I being from a "uber cloistered whitebread neighborhood" am not a product of the Duval County public School System (no disrepct to anyone else). I'm a private school grad but I dont really see how that matter. I can't wait to hear what you have to say about this though.
In the end we have to decide that this is a problem that the entire city must deal with, not just downtown. While their number isn't quite as large, there are homeless people ALL over this city, from the Westside to the Beaches. I think the solutions is understanding why they are in this postion to begin with, whether it be addictions or being down on their luck, and helping them realize there is something better, and then helping them attain that. But it takes people caring enough. I think that can and will start with people volunteering at shelters but not just once. It needs to be a consistent thing. We need to get to know these people.
Quote from: stephenc on April 02, 2008, 03:46:24 PM
I think the solutions is understanding why they are in this postion to begin with, whether it be addictions or being down on their luck, and helping them realize there is something better, and then helping them attain that. But it takes people caring enough. I think that can and will start with people volunteering at shelters but not just once. It needs to be a consistent thing. We need to get to know these people.
OMG.. the epiotme of liberal drivel....good thing you're one of those edumacated cloistered whitebread suburbanites. 'just let me understand them then I can figure out whats best for them'... yeah know your type well. Private school too, talk about guilt geez.
liberal drivel? im about as christian right wing republican as you can get. I dont think my thinking has ever been considered liberal.
Quote from: stephendare on April 02, 2008, 04:16:12 PM
I simply had no idea that the problem with the homeless was either Jesus (hat tip to Zoo) or Limousine Liberals from the suburbs (wtf, walter?).
Solving the homelessness issues is something we will have to do as a city. We missed a real chance by refusing to fund Wanda Laniers proposal.
But lets not get too out of hand about liquidating or harming the homeless. We are about to go through a seriously bad economic time. Who knows which among us are going to have to deal with the same laws and policies that we are cavalierly setting up today.
well said stephendare.
Quote from: willworkforfood on April 02, 2008, 03:36:07 PM
I am all for bus tickets to get them out of town. Or a work camp so they can get off drugs and get used to regular steady work. If one asks me for "30 cents", my typical answer is "if you have change for a 9mm. That slum downtown has to go. It only enabled drug dealers and pseudo activists who take advantage of the situation.
Be pretty funny (in an ironic kind of way) if one of them actually DID have change for your 9mm one day, Dirty Harry.
HAHA!! You're telling me.
Quote from: stephendare on April 02, 2008, 04:16:12 PM
I simply had no idea that the problem with the homeless was either Jesus (hat tip to Zoo) or Limousine Liberals from the suburbs (wtf, walter?).
Solving the homelessness issues is something we will have to do as a city. We missed a real chance by refusing to fund Wanda Laniers proposal.
But lets not get too out of hand about liquidating or harming the homeless. We are about to go through a seriously bad economic time. Who knows which among us are going to have to deal with the same laws and policies that we are cavalierly setting up today.
I agree man. segregation is wack!!
Quote from: willworkforfood on April 02, 2008, 03:36:07 PM
I am all for bus tickets to get them out of town. Or a work camp so they can get off drugs and get used to regular steady work. If one asks me for "30 cents", my typical answer is "if you have change for a 9mm. That slum downtown has to go. It only enabled drug dealers and pseudo activists who take advantage of the situation.
Dude... post under your real screen name. Don't be ashamed, 9mm?? You shooting bums now? HA HA HA HA Wooooooooooooooooow!!! Give it up to Rambo ya'll he has a 9 millimeter gun. :o Be a man post under your real screen name soldier.
WE SEE YOUR IP.....................
In all due respect Riverside Gator, and I do respect the way you feel, I disagree. The homeless are not going no where and they have rights too, just like you do. I hope you're never homeless. (in all due respect).
Heights Unknown
P.S. - As a 20 year Naval Veteran who diligently served my country with numerous awards and accolades, and by happenstance and not totally on purpose, I was once homeless; I guess I should have been thrown in jail too.
"Riverside," sometimes bad things happen to good people for a reason.
Thanks for your good post. Heights Unknown
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Quote from: RiversideGator on April 01, 2008, 06:13:50 PM
People really try to overthink this issue and try to moralize too much. The solution to the homeless situation is quite simple: Return to the 1950s policy of mass arrests for drunks, bums, vagrants and the mentally ill. The mentally ill will then be committed to a state mental hospital for a period of years, not days, in order to get the proper treatment for their problems. Drunks/drug addicts will be held in secure treatment facilities for months to dry them out. And, the perpetually lazy will now spend their leisure time in jail. And by doing this, you will allow the sane and legitimate citizens and taxpayers and their families to feel safe and welcome in downtown again.
So, there you have it. Problem solved. Now, admittedly this is difficult to implement as it will require a conservative judiciary and some backbone on the City Council, but the road map is right there and the route is clear.
Stephendare; I like your style; you think carefully before talking and seem to understand that it will in fact take a 3 way pyramid to solve the homeless problem; City Government + Social Service Agencies + Citizens = No Homelessness! We all have to work together with a plausible plan for attacking the causes of homelessness in order to eliminate it.
Heights Unknown :)
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Quote from: stephendare on April 02, 2008, 04:16:12 PM
I simply had no idea that the problem with the homeless was either Jesus (hat tip to Zoo) or Limousine Liberals from the suburbs (wtf, walter?).
Solving the homelessness issues is something we will have to do as a city. We missed a real chance by refusing to fund Wanda Laniers proposal.
But lets not get too out of hand about liquidating or harming the homeless. We are about to go through a seriously bad economic time. Who knows which among us are going to have to deal with the same laws and policies that we are cavalierly setting up today.
Floriduh is the Home of the Homeless.
Only a bunch of silly carpet-bagging lawyer scum would want to put the poor in prison camps.
Why are the these people such a problem, if you have to come all the way downtown just to bitch and moan, I feel you would be a lot happier building a more Christain bomb-shelter back in the Burbs.
I live downtown and I give the homeless the money in my pocket and alot of compassion, they deserve it.
Soon the new downtown will be finished and all you scared little monkies can hang-out at dicks and play with some golfclubs.
Soon the Republicans will be done destroying the American economy and many more will be "home-less".
When that happens these self-rightous jerks will get to piss in the same cubby-hole as their brothers and sisters.
One coarse post... free.
Getting directly to the point in a flash....priceless.
While I see lot's of discussion around government, social services, and citizens getting involved and being the answer to homelessness, I have as yet seen any comments around family responsibility. While I understand perfectly well that there are homeless families also, you normally do not see them on the street, they are not the one's being referenced here anyway. Family support and participation/responsibility, or lack there of is also a key contributor. While I would gladly participate (and do) in helping solve the issue of homelessness, I strongly believe the breakdown of the family unit is largely at the core of this issue. Someone mentioned how homeless were treated in the 50's. Well yes, they were treated differently; of course they WERE different in the 50's. Persons with mental health issues or addictions were institutionalized or taken care of by their families. When parents were too old to work and could not support or take care of themselves, their children stepped up to the plate. Brothers took care of sisters and vice versus. Divorce was negligible and you didn't hear about 3rd graders being criminally charged for plots against their teachers and schoolmates. Now you have a distinct breakdown in the family unit, divorce is sky rocketing, the homeless you see on the street are not just lazy bums, but have no where else to turn because the family that took care of their own in the past does not exist any longer. While a lot of discussion around what to do NOW has occurred here, there hasn't been much discussion on how to prevent this situation in the future. A key component, in my own humble opinion is the resurrection of the family unit. Keeping in mind there are all different kinds of family units (so this isn' t a Judea Christian rant as I am not even a Judea Christian!), should we not be spending as much effort and time on supporting this as making sure the current topic at hand is addressed? One reason I never worry about being homeless and on the street is I know I have my family to help me through. I also know I am VERY fortunate in this, but it used to be, and could be again the norm.
The homeless problem--whatever "problem" means--simply cannot be solved. It never has been, never will be...and this dates to ancient times . There are too many conflicting and interlocking sub-problems and sub-issues to be solved, and truthfully there's not enough benefit to anyone to solve the problem.
Employers have plenty of people available that don't have the problems of the homeless, so why would they be inclined to to provide jobs to a problematic population? They want astute college grads, not a muttering mental. Sorry.
RiverGator was brutal in his analysis, but he's on target. It's pointless for everyone to wring their hands, point their fingers, and demand that somebody "do something" about the homeless. As a society, I suppose we should feed them and generally offer shelter so they don't die on the street, which is the "hand-out" philosophy. But in those ancient times that I mentioned, there were no organized hand-outs. People died, or survived as the village idiot, as beggars, as thieves, etc. Same as now. Darwin is at work here, not organized religion or disorganized government. Darwin always wins.
Oh, by-the-way.......there is a large homeless population in Ponte Vedra, living in the woods at the very end of JTB (at A1A) and near the Marsh Landing Target. You can actually make out the trails to their camps on Google Maps. Think of them as "beach bums"!! :D
Quote from: Trace on April 03, 2008, 12:02:10 PMOh, by-the-way.......there is a large homeless population in Ponte Vedra, living in the woods at the very end of JTB (at A1A) and near the Marsh Landing Target. You can actually make out the trails to their camps on Google Maps. Think of them as "beach bums"!! :D
I work in an office complex next door to Sleiman's property near Target. When these guys are rounded up, they are shipped downtown. I think we would have a much larger outcry and will to do something if they rounded them up downtown and shipped them to Ponte Vedra.
Stephen I actually agree with most points in your post, but based on your reply I apparently did not do a good job of getting that across. I by NO MEANS want to return to the 50's (I wasn't even a twinkling in parent’s eyes in the 50's). My only point was I get tired of what feels like a lecture to step up give more money in taxes, as donations, and also volunteer my time (what time, as I am having to spend a lot of time working to make all this money to give away AND ensure MY family doesn’t become homeless) to do your "part". Where are these people's families? What is their responsibility? I know, I know there are some w/o family but that does not apply to the majority. You are correct in grandma and auntie were left behind (which was a major point to my original post), there are also husband beaters and cheaters, but I digress. I would just like to see someone also lump some of this "guilt" that certain persons try to lump on society back on the families who SHOULD be responsible. If mom doesn't want addicted son living in her house stealing her copper wiring from her air conditioner, why should I want him living in my backyard stealing mine? I am all for doing something, but hey, it is not ALL societies fault and/or responsibility.
Absolutely! And being a downtown resident and having to deal with this on a day to day basis I can appreciate the two sides! It is frustrating for everyone involved, and it is horrible that there are no longer public bathrooms. As a mother to small children I can attest to the lack of facilities, and when little children need to go they NEED to go!
As to the guy in the Springfield video, the employee badge only confirms he is (or was at some point) employed.
QuoteFinland
Perhaps the most concerted and successful effort to deal with homelessness is in Finland where, after the International Year of Shelter for the Homeless in 1987, the Government devised a multifaceted response to the problem. It included building of social housing, the creation of social welfare and health care services, and setting a target to provide a dwelling of minimum standards for every homeless person. The number of single homeless persons at that time was approximately 18 000. In just 10 years, the number of homeless in Finland was cut in half.
Over 60 per cent of households in Finland live in owner-occupied dwellings. The average housing costs are quite high; this means that low-income groups have difficulties to afford housing which would meet their requirements.
One obvious cause of the high housing costs is that housing production and housing policy are basically dependent on the market. The share of social rental housing is small, only some 15 per cent of the housing stock. Contrary to many other sectors of the welfare society, housing provision mainly relies on the free market. Single persons in particular encounter difficulties in finding reasonably priced rental dwellings.
A new plan to reduce homelessness, proposed in the housing strategy, was presented in February 2001 to the Minister of Housing. It suggested that homelessness would be best reduced through common housing policy measures, but it suggests a number of other measures to reduce homelessness. On the basis of the program the cities in the capital region have signed a contract by which they have decided to increase the supply of dwellings for homeless persons. However, the measures have not been well implemented. The shortages of rental dwellings as well as the shortage of land available for housing production are the main hindrances, especially in Helsinki City.
New kinds of measures are required, too. Homelessness itself is changing. Drug problems are increasing rapidly in Finland. Homelessness becomes more hidden; young homeless persons are not willing to come to shelters. New kinds special support measures are needed. Organisations that have special knowledge on this kind of work, are taking part in the carrying out a programme for reducing homelessness.
According to the figures presented by the municipalities in the yearly housing market survey for the Housing Fund of Finland, there were around 10 000 single homeless persons and about 800 homeless families or other households with more than one person in November 2001.
More than half of the homeless people are in capital region. Numbers or estimates of the extent of homelessness have been gathered on the same basis by the housing authorities since 1986, which means that the development can have been followed up.
Each year, a Finnish member of FEANTSA, No Fixed Abode (V.V.A.) organises a ‘Night for the Homeless’ in several cities and towns across Finland, which usually takes place on 17 October, also the International Day for the Eradication of Poverty. More and more organisations working with the homeless from Finland and other European countries (Czech Republic, Estonia, Sweden, Romania) are participating. The aim is to raise public awareness about the situation of the homeless in Finland as well as across Europe.
http://www.feantsa.org/code/en/country.asp?ID=5&Page=22
Does anybody know how many homeless people are in Jax?
Quote from: Beloki on April 03, 2008, 01:34:51 PM
Does anybody know how many homeless people are in Jax?
QuoteDiane Gilbert, executive director of Emergency Services and Homeless Coalition of Jacksonville, Inc., told me that they don't expect the numbers from this area's homeless count this year will differ much from last year's count, which was around 17,000. That accounts for a major chunk of the state's homeless population, around 68,000.
The question needs to asked, why does Jax have such a disporportinate share of the state's homeless? Undoubtedly, it is the highest of any city, if the above figures are correct. ALL of Florida is warm and all cities have interstate access. What's the difference?
My guess would be because Jacksonville is a gateway to Florida (via bus) and our downtown is a vibrant center of complementing social service activity? In Florida's other major cities it seems that the social service networks are more spreadout or are located on the edge of downtown cores, as opposed to the center.
Quote from: Trace on April 03, 2008, 12:02:10 PM
The homeless problem--whatever "problem" means--simply cannot be solved. It never has been, never will be...and this dates to ancient times . There are too many conflicting and interlocking sub-problems and sub-issues to be solved, and truthfully there's not enough benefit to anyone to solve the problem.
Employers have plenty of people available that don't have the problems of the homeless, so why would they be inclined to to provide jobs to a problematic population? They want astute college grads, not a muttering mental. Sorry.
RiverGator was brutal in his analysis, but he's on target. It's pointless for everyone to wring their hands, point their fingers, and demand that somebody "do something" about the homeless. As a society, I suppose we should feed them and generally offer shelter so they don't die on the street, which is the "hand-out" philosophy. But in those ancient times that I mentioned, there were no organized hand-outs. People died, or survived as the village idiot, as beggars, as thieves, etc. Same as now. Darwin is at work here, not organized religion or disorganized government. Darwin always wins.
Oh, by-the-way.......there is a large homeless population in Ponte Vedra, living in the woods at the very end of JTB (at A1A) and near the Marsh Landing Target. You can actually make out the trails to their camps on Google Maps. Think of them as "beach bums"!! :D
It never has been or never will be because we as a society don't want it to be solved! The majority of us feel it is not our problem and "those people" chose to be where they are.......until we are homeless and it bites us in the a** then it's a different story and ball game. Don't ever get homeless my friend; then you'll be whistling Dixie in a whole different tune and in a minor key.
Heights Unknown ???
Quote from: stephendare on April 03, 2008, 12:31:59 PM
No matter what our philosophy, surely we can agree that people need to take a crap.
If you look closely at the guy in the springfield video, taking a crap in the alleyway. Guess what you will see.
His workers ID Badge hanging around his neck.
Hes NOT homeless. But there are NO PUBLIC BATHROOMS because we dont want the homeless using them.
I agree everyone needs to go to the bathroom. But would you want to watch while sitting in your home office working or sitting in a restaurant eating and looking out the window ?
The person in the video did not only take a crap but urinate in the same spot frequently. Perhaps if he would drink less beer at the convenience store he would not have to go that often.
There also is a public bathroom close by (6th and Boulevard at Duval County Health Department). Only about 2 blocks walk, not too much to ask I would think.
Thankfully the owner of the property finally fixed the fence.
Stephendare, Heights, other:
This has been a very good discussion about a constant modern society and ancient society problem. As Heights said in response to me:
QuoteIt never has been or never will be because we as a society don't want it to be solved! The majority of us feel it is not our problem and "those people" chose to be where they are.......until we are homeless and it bites us in the a** then it's a different story and ball game. Don't ever get homeless my friend; then you'll be whistling Dixie in a whole different tune and in a minor key.
Exactly!! It's true. We, as a society that is busy with our own lives and families and jobs and pursuits, we don't really care if it is solved. I mean, that's human nature, isn't it. We--as individuals and as society members--can't take on all the ills of the world. We (I) would love to snap my fingers like Bruce Almighty and give the homeless what they need to get off the streets (whatever that is, and nobody really seems to know the right answer). We all have to pick our battles, so we (not me) do the guilty Christian food bank thing, and pass out Thanksgiving dinners and hams at Christmas.....and let them starve the rest of the year, I guess. ???
Stephendare--As for those migrations from the history books, that's not really "homeless" using our modern definition. Wars, pestilence, Mt. Vesuvius.....that's a bit different than the problems of downtown Jax. But your point about the Industrial Revolution is a good one, and I'll use it: Before the IR, there was no such thing as "leisure time" for anything other than royals and landed gentry, and little accumulated weath for the vast middle/working class. Everybody was basically on subsistence living, and when the sun was up you either hunted, fished or farmed. When the sun went down, you made clothes and weapons and slept. And there were no income taxes and no welfare state, either. Thus, no funding of meals and shelters. You either worked or you starved or you stole. Or you were a royal. In fact, the story of the IR coming to England was much of the basis for Charles Dicken's famous stories. And 150+ years later.....nothing has changed. It's not going to, ever. That's just the way it is.
I believe that if we took a survey of thousands of homeless people, we'd have thousands of reasons for being homeless, and a thousand remedies. So, as far as whistling Dixie (which is not even remotely Politically Correct anymore, yaknow!), they'll
all whistle a different tune.
And let's not bring the economy into this debate. The current economic jitters have to due (mostly) with the fallout from the subprime lending market, and a little from trade balance and overseas labor costs vs. US wages. The jitters are just that: jitters. There is no depression, no recession, and the job market is still vibrant for most skilled people, in spite of what CNN and MSNBC have to say. And believe me, the subprime market is NOT a matter of discussion amongst our park-bench-sleeping brethern at the Landing as to why they're not buying a new place at the Shipyards....
And is the homeless problem really a "problem"? I know this sounds crazy, but only a small fraction of the population (and I know it's still a LOT of people) are homeless. And yes, it can happen to anyone, I suppose, but the comment "How many consecutive mistakes do you have to make to become (a typical) homeless." is a good one. There are a lot of mistakes being made out there, but only a scant fraction of the mistake makers are sleeping on the benches. I mean, unless you're dealt a really bad hand in life, there's an entrenched reason that you're out of a home. And for those very, very few who are normally a part of society and get dealt that nasty hand that puts them on the street usually manage to crawl back to the real world, if I'm not terribly mistaken.
Anyway, to conclude, I just wanted to float the idea that no matter what your heart says regarding this matter (bleeding heart or a cold heart), it will never, never, never be solved.
Quote
Anyway, to conclude, I just wanted to float the idea that no matter what your heart says regarding this matter (bleeding heart or a cold heart), it will never, never, never be solved.
Are you sure about that?
Just a few points:
- there is NEVER a valid reason to film someone takeing a crap. I dont care where, when, how. You just dont do that. If it is a public place, you should yell loudly at them to have some dignity and go elsewhere, but by filming them in the act, you become the asshole, no matter what your intentions are. Period.
- as the manager of popular bum hangout London Bridge for 4 years and current owner of a Springfeild pub, I know my Jacksonville bums. This is not rocket science....
HAVE SOME BALLS!
If someone (anyone) is becoming a problem to a customer, and it is usually a repeat offender (you see the same dudes every day. Thats the differance between a bum and a transient. Transients bum a quarter and you never see them again. Bums try to take advantage of people...), simply run them off! The Imperial had an arsenal of baseball bats and chair legs to run off crackheads! Occasionally, at London Bridge, you are going to have to knuckle up a bum! Its a fact... you can do it, then call the cops, and usually they will get arrested afterwords!
I am no fighter or violent dude, but if someone is interfering with your bussiness again and again then direct action may be the only option. I am not saying just go beating up homeless people by any means, but- the way I see it, if they keep violeting me or the place I am running then they are choosing to become my enemy.
Be direct. Look them in the eyes. Wave a big stick oround. Act crazier than they are. Act like you are calling the cops- they will leave if you really want them to! They have to! This is not a huge problem, just simply run the sorry sacks off! And if they are not bothering anyone, then let them be. But once a line is crossed, stand firm... they will go away, trust me.
CLOPS
Quote from: gatorback on April 03, 2008, 04:32:21 PM
Are you sure about that?
Yes, gator, I'm quite sure about that. 100 percent sure. We can put men on the moon, but we'll NEVER solve the homeless problem that is pervasive in every big and medium city in the world (unless it's cold, but Minneapolis has plenty of street homeless--go figure!) But by the tone of your comment, you seem to think otherwise, perhaps? :-\
What is your solution, pray tell. In fact, just give us a
partial solution to reduce the problem by one-half! Something other than "tax the rich and give it to the homeless and disenfranchised", please. No "Les Miserables" fantasy about revolution in the streets, either. We Ponte Vedrans have better guns than the homeless..... ;)
Just like you can NEVER legislate morality problems out of existence (drugs, prostitution, murder), you can't legislate the homeless off the streets.
So, let's work at something that's more possible, like getting Israel and Iran to work together for world peace.
Quote from: Trace on April 03, 2008, 04:28:17 PM
Stephendare, Heights, other:
And is the homeless problem really a "problem"? I know this sounds crazy, but only a small fraction of the population (and I know it's still a LOT of people) are homeless. And yes, it can happen to anyone, I suppose, but the comment "How many consecutive mistakes do you have to make to become (a typical) homeless." is a good one. There are a lot of mistakes being made out there, but only a scant fraction of the mistake makers are sleeping on the benches. I mean, unless you're dealt a really bad hand in life, there's an entrenched reason that you're out of a home. And for those very, very few who are normally a part of society and get dealt that nasty hand that puts them on the street usually manage to crawl back to the real world, if I'm not terribly mistaken.
I guess it is a problem because everyone complains about the homeless to the Police, Sheriff, and City Government, telling them to do something with those worthless, smelly, no good people; so I guess yes, it is a problem. It doesn't matter whether it is only a small fraction of the population, society yearns for perfection (which we'll never have in this life), and part of that perfection is getting rid of eye sores, and that is how many people feel about the homeless.
Well, if you complain, and if you want the homeless either gone or normal like the rest of us, then the smart thing to do, in my mind and in my opinion is to help them; find out what their problem is, how they got to where they are, what caused them to end up in "skid row" so to speak, and are they really willing to admit that they have a problem, need help, and willing to do whatever it takes to change and return back as productive, viable members of society. This is the direction we need to go; and social service agencies cannot do it alone. Help will be needed from the local governments and the citizens.
The law of the universe is firm; what goes around comes around. If we treat people bad, no matter if they're rich, poor, or whatever, then bad will eventuallly come back around to us. We think we're safe and sound in our nice little bubbles, but the alarms are sounding loud and clear that pretty soon, most of us will probably be roaming the streets, dirty, with no home, and trying to figure out where to get the next meal; we all had better think real carefully about how we treat each other.
I don't mean to preach, but what I said in the last paragraph is true. The homeless may be a nuisance, eyesores, whatever you want to call them, but the reason why they "hang around" is because they are hoping that someone helps them with their problem. Most of them don't honestly know where to turn. It's fine to have somewhere to eat everyday, clothes every once in a while, and even temporary shelter now and then, but take it from someone who knows, they yearn for a nice job, apartment, house, car, a vacation every now and then, the things that most of us do almost year in and year out.
It appears no one really read my first post indepth; the majority of the homeless, I will say about 90%, are palgued with social problems such as drug abuse, alcholism, mental illness, disabilities or handicaps, etc., and yes there are those that are homeless out of pure stupidity or negligence. Regardless of how they got homeless, rather than complain and shove them in the woods or on the outskirts of town like they don't exist, we should have some type of system, around the nation and within each town city and village, with the social service agencies working together at the helm, to address and help to cure/eliminate the problems that attribute to their homelessness. They are not going away people. The more we try to make them go away or treat them adversely, the more it will come back to haunt us in some way to remind us we are doing wrong.
Lastly, our country, and States, Cities, etc. throw away billions and even trillions annually on stupid, questionable, and off the chain stuff, issues and items that makes absolutely no sense. It makes sense to me to have some type of system in place for when people really truly "lose their ass," so to speak and become homeless, regardless of the reason. And for the ones that are homeless because of legal problems or crime, they should be put in jail yes, but also have something within the penal system to address whatever crimes or problems that they may have; most of these type people are dead beat dads, tax evaders, etc.
Not trying to hold to hold the homeless by the hand...wait a minute, yes I am; because if we don't, we'll have more and more homeless people on the street as the economy gets worse and our financial situation goes down the tube. Just to remind everyone, more and more people are becoming unemployed, losing their homes, and are becoming homeless.
Hope y'all are having a nice week! Keep up the good work in this great forum!
Heights Unknown ;)
Heights:
Good points, all. As for the Universal Law (goes around/come around), I don't think anyone is advocating doing anything BAD to the homeless, unless they're violent beggars, of course. [[side note--I worked for 20 years in downtown DC, and I've seen my share of bums, homeless, etc.]] And I think most of us wish there was something GOOD to do for them, but.......nobody has ever, ever, ever had a viable solution to solving the current problem (nationwide) and preventing the constant reocurrance. So, society helps when it can, but there is no solving the problem. I wish there were. And like I said to "gatorback", don't give me pie-in-the-sky, what-if solutions, like "if everyone gave 5 dollars....." or something like that. Those are stop-gap measures, handouts. What is the solution to eliminate the root of the problem forever---and a solution that can actually be implemented. Implemented is the key word here.
Stephendare:
Uhh....I explain the plight of the confederates after the war thusly: They were defeated in war, period. To the victor goes the spoils, the losers get nothing. And these losers were in rebellion against their country....so they're lucky they didn't ALL swing from the gallows, quite frankly. And, the South was poor to begin with, compared to the industrialized North, and war is expensive! Sucession was a dumb idea from a strategic standpoint...they didn't stand a chance. Few factories, no weapons manufacturing, no trains, less people.....a really dumb way to start a war. As for the shantytowns....if you're living in a shantytown, you're not homeless. You're just dirt-poor. There IS a difference.
As for history and sanitized lenses.....you're absolutely right. I often ask people (who are complaining about present day problems) what they consider to be "the good old days". First it's the 60s, but I point out race riots. Then it's the 50's, and I point out no cure for polio and everyone smoked (or whatever), and the the 40's (world war!), then it's the 20s (prohibition, gangsters, facism), then it's the 1890s, then it's....cave man days! My point is that there were never "good old days", and the golden glow of bygone years is only because people do indeed look at history through rose colored (and sanitized) glasses.
For just one moment, I want everyone to consider that THESE are the good old days. Right now. Times are good...much better than when the Black Plague was having a go at all of Europe.....
So, I'll step out of this dialogue. Again, a very good discussion by all, and I hope someone solves the homeless problem. But in 10, 20, 30 years, downtown Jax will still have the same problem. I'm sure of it.
Quote from: stephendare on April 03, 2008, 11:34:50 PM
But once again, I would hope that people pay attention to the point of this post. Which is how to deconstruct the current situation in which nothing downtown is planned without being either for the benefit of or the exclusion to the homeless.
This is such an interesting question, and I'll be the first to state I have no idea, but wouldn't it be nice if we didn’t even have to ask it? I know every major city has the same issue, several I have visited or lived in have tried the benches and what not, with varying degrees of success (depending on which side of the coin you are on). Many businesses, when designing functionality, design to the lowest common denominator, it appears the leaders are attempting to do the same with downtown, if I build a fountain will someone bathe in it? If someone bathes in it, will someone eating dinner see them and not come back? Why should it be this way? Why should anyone have to be concerned about building a fountain or bathroom and even take into consideration if someone is going to bathe or destroy it? Isn't that illegal anyway? Isn’t that a police issue, not a planning issue? There are services available downtown so when we do take our small children downtown why should we be subjected to urination, defecation, bathing, and panhandling at the park, library or when eating? Why should downtown be designed around this possibility? When did these types of actions become so mainstream that city planning should revolve around either supporting or discouraging them? Perhaps that is the real question, since when did city planning have to take into account a minority of people bathing or relieving themselves in public? I understand the issue of "when nature calls you have to listen", by why accept this public toiletry as so normal and commonplace that now we plan our cities around its occurrence? Just another twist...
Quote from: triclops i on April 03, 2008, 05:18:33 PM
Just a few points:
- there is NEVER a valid reason to film someone takeing a crap. I dont care where, when, how. You just dont do that. If it is a public place, you should yell loudly at them to have some dignity and go elsewhere, but by filming them in the act, you become the asshole, no matter what your intentions are. Period.
- as the manager of popular bum hangout London Bridge for 4 years and current owner of a Springfeild pub, I know my Jacksonville bums. This is not rocket science....
HAVE SOME BALLS!
If someone (anyone) is becoming a problem to a customer, and it is usually a repeat offender (you see the same dudes every day. Thats the differance between a bum and a transient. Transients bum a quarter and you never see them again. Bums try to take advantage of people...), simply run them off! The Imperial had an arsenal of baseball bats and chair legs to run off crackheads! Occasionally, at London Bridge, you are going to have to knuckle up a bum! Its a fact... you can do it, then call the cops, and usually they will get arrested afterwords!
I am no fighter or violent dude, but if someone is interfering with your bussiness again and again then direct action may be the only option. I am not saying just go beating up homeless people by any means, but- the way I see it, if they keep violeting me or the place I am running then they are choosing to become my enemy.
Be direct. Look them in the eyes. Wave a big stick oround. Act crazier than they are. Act like you are calling the cops- they will leave if you really want them to! They have to! This is not a huge problem, just simply run the sorry sacks off! And if they are not bothering anyone, then let them be. But once a line is crossed, stand firm... they will go away, trust me.
CLOPS
Man... now I know why I love the Shanty so much! Ian effing rules! thats the best advice I've heard yet. Knuckle up a bum :D :D :D btw..it almost happend last night, but I think he saw the writing on the wall.
*disclaimer* overly simplified idealistic statement coming up:
The problem with the homeless and downtown is the ratio of homeless to regulars. If we can't reduce the homeless population, we just need to get more people downtown for more events (more permanent residents would be nice too course) but if you had more people, you can just ignore a bum and let them bother some other poor sap. It works well when I'm visiting nyc!
So for every event you go downtown, bring 5 friends! We just need to outnumber them, yeah thats the ticket!
Quote from: stephendare on April 04, 2008, 12:49:12 PM
always good advice, tony.
But what about the daytime hours when there arent necessarily events?
Since I work downtown, during the day is when I have the least amount of run ins with the homeless, transients, etc due to all the pedestrian traffic on the streets. There's just more people for them to bother so less come to me. Either way i'm being light hearted about a serious situation, because I honestly dont know what to do about it personally. But I'm pretty stingy with the downtowners, I save my change for the riverside bums!
You have to be tough with this stuff.
And btw Walt, 9 times out of 10 no knuckle up happens.... they do see the writing on the wall, and they get lost first. We are talking about lazy people, not stupid people!
I
First off this is LEE HARVEY,or JAXHATER- whatever
Wow, Knuckle up, guys.
First off let me say when you sale poison to young people for a living maybe scaring away and crushing homeless peoples skulls with baseball bats is is just another wonderful day in the ghetto.
So lets say when and not if the ecomomy gets worse your friends and clients who are about 2 paychecks away from being on the streets may not keep up with their tab and because they may be homeless and all ask you for a free beer would you then have to kick their ass, crush their skull with a bat or call your friends, the cops, to do your dirty work.
Sounds like someone Hitler or Bush-Cheney would be proud of.
Soon Springfield and downtown will be your worse nightmare.
How do I know this, because I was here before you were born.
Get ready kids, the shit is about to hit the fan.
But you should know all this you being a business men and all.
BTW Springfield ain't about bats.....We gots GATTS and theys automatic's.
Quote from: Trace on April 04, 2008, 09:22:25 AM
Heights:
Good points, all. As for the Universal Law (goes around/come around), I don't think anyone is advocating doing anything BAD to the homeless, unless they're violent beggars, of course. [[side note--I worked for 20 years in downtown DC, and I've seen my share of bums, homeless, etc.]] And I think most of us wish there was something GOOD to do for them, but.......nobody has ever, ever, ever had a viable solution to solving the current problem (nationwide) and preventing the constant reocurrance. So, society helps when it can, but there is no solving the problem. I wish there were. And like I said to "gatorback", don't give me pie-in-the-sky, what-if solutions, like "if everyone gave 5 dollars....." or something like that. Those are stop-gap measures, handouts. What is the solution to eliminate the root of the problem forever---and a solution that can actually be implemented. Implemented is the key word here.
Stephendare:
Uhh....I explain the plight of the confederates after the war thusly: They were defeated in war, period. To the victor goes the spoils, the losers get nothing. And these losers were in rebellion against their country....so they're lucky they didn't ALL swing from the gallows, quite frankly. And, the South was poor to begin with, compared to the industrialized North, and war is expensive! Sucession was a dumb idea from a strategic standpoint...they didn't stand a chance. Few factories, no weapons manufacturing, no trains, less people.....a really dumb way to start a war. As for the shantytowns....if you're living in a shantytown, you're not homeless. You're just dirt-poor. There IS a difference.
As for history and sanitized lenses.....you're absolutely right. I often ask people (who are complaining about present day problems) what they consider to be "the good old days". First it's the 60s, but I point out race riots. Then it's the 50's, and I point out no cure for polio and everyone smoked (or whatever), and the the 40's (world war!), then it's the 20s (prohibition, gangsters, facism), then it's the 1890s, then it's....cave man days! My point is that there were never "good old days", and the golden glow of bygone years is only because people do indeed look at history through rose colored (and sanitized) glasses.
For just one moment, I want everyone to consider that THESE are the good old days. Right now. Times are good...much better than when the Black Plague was having a go at all of Europe.....
So, I'll step out of this dialogue. Again, a very good discussion by all, and I hope someone solves the homeless problem. But in 10, 20, 30 years, downtown Jax will still have the same problem. I'm sure of it.
In all due respect we're treating them BAD when we do nothing for them, knowing deep in our heart(s) that they are most likely yearning for a way out and begging for a way out, and then have the nerve to complain that they are breathing.
Let me educate you guys on one factual and most important point of being homeless, and if anyone in this forum, in the future, ever becomes homeless, and I hope to God you won't, this you will never, ever forget when you become homeless:
When you get deep into homelessness, it becomes a never ending, vicious circle of the same thing and same old same old day in and day out, and.......it is extremely hard to bounce back to normalcy once you are in. No one wants to hire you or even come near you when you're smelly, no one wants anything to do with you if you have no home, phone or transportation, and I could go on and on; remember, once you're in that vicious circle, it is hell trying to get out!
Heights Unknown :'(
Amen on that, brother.
I love it when suburbia comes downtown to set us straight.
YEAH!!!!!!!!
When I was homeless for many years during the 70's, I would wish someone would say the wrong thing to me because I was armed and dangerous.
Shit, I saw jail as a upscale hotel.
They have no idea.
Karma is M.F
You have no balls if you beat down the least of us.
And bars are just creating the next wave of "drunk homeless-lazy person" (not my words).
Get a grip!
I promise in two years if you have a business in the downtown- springfield area, you're gonna have to get bullet-proof real fast.
Homeless will be the least of your problems.
YEAH!!!!!
Trace says:
But in those ancient times that I mentioned, there were no organized hand-outs. People died, or survived as the village idiot, as beggars, as thieves, etc. Same as now. Darwin is at work here, not organized religion or disorganized government. Darwin always wins. ???
Now see kids, this post is an example of why you shouldn't try to read Dawkins on the bus home from the Ren Fair when you're sleepy from the day's events.
Trace, I expect an asstoot grad would research how social parameters modify behavior. If biology is destiny well...Hell, even environment modulates which genes become active and which don't. Shame on all the "I gots mine" Libertarians posting tripe in this thread. Read Heights Unknown's brave posts which elevate the conversation.
Should I entertain this dude? Why not, I got some free time...
First off, we aint selling nothing but a good time over my way. Poison CAN be alcohol, or politics, or religion, or bad art, or anything else.... but what definetely, factually is poison is crack, cocaine, herion, oxycotin, ect.
What do you think the ratio of homeless drug addicts wondering around Downtown is to homeless completely crazy folks? I would non-scientifically guess there are at the very least twice as many lazy, panhandleing drug addicts around here then there are schitzos or otherwise "not able to care for themselves" type homeless. And that is a low estimate. I have very little sympathy for a crackhead, especially when they are interfereing with my bussiness and making my customers uncomfortable. And when you are panhandleing to a nice couple trying to enjoy their dinner so you can buy a rock or a cheap quart, you are choosing to make the general population uncomfortable. If you are physically able to wash dishes and dig ditches, then I aint got nothing for you.... I work hard as hell, and I feel like if every other able bodied soul would also then everyone in the community as a whole would be better off.
Hey, I by no means advocate just randomly bashing anyones skull for any reason. If you are sitting in a public park for 8 hours a day drinking and are being slick about hiding your bottle, and you are not bothering a soul, and you think thats a good use of your limited time on earth, then I have no qualms with you. Do your thing. You do have a legal right to be sorry.
Again, from my expirence, you get the same tired ass lazy dudes who are probably addicted to some illict substance constantly bothering the general public. It is an inconvience at worse, but it sucks, and as a manager of any establishment or bussiness it is part of your job to push them out. And if you are a habitual offender then it becomes harder and harder to convince me you actually need my help.
You wanna bum change? Dont do it at Shanty, that young dude will yell at you and call the police. And if that dont work, he may chase you off with a stick. Spread the word. The bums will realize this and stop coming around.
And if and when the economy collapses, 2 things will continue to sell- cheap food and cheap drinks. And I am gonna continue to provide this to the citizens in downtown Jacksonville, probably for the rest of my life. And I will be damned if I am gonna let any crackhead interfere with me doing it. Its my job.
Springfeild /Downtown is not getting worse. And its not gonna. And running these dudes off is a step to making it better. And in two years it is gonna be safer, more comfortable, cleaner, and less crackheads wondering around. And again I know because it is currently part of my job.
As far as all the gun talk- never owned or operated or carryed one myself. Pull one on me and I will likely just give you what you want and then run.... but worrying about bad things that may happen IS the least of my problems.
If someone robbed me at gunpoint for a days cash A. it is probably not gonna be a homeless person and B. I will just keep it moving to the next day. I aint worried about evil folks because karma is a bitch!
Ian Ranne
Agreed.
Ian
I'm not picking on you, I say the same thing to Ryan about his bar.
Have given him shit for 6 years about bars.
Don't like bars, booze or smokes and I know what I'm talking about.
I feel booze leads to crack, and you brought up crackheads being part of the problem
I've seen it a thousand times, drinking then drugs.
If You had opened anything but a bar, I'd be there.
As a business man, I respect you.
I have no doubt you will be around reguardless of the economy
But don't fool yourself about the economy.
Springfield is a house of cards.
Worse than I have ever seen.
I set foot the first time in springfield in 1972.
It had just recovered from the M.L.K. riots.
Property meant nothing then.
You could rent a 4 bedroom house for $150.00 dollars.
When Steven and I opened the space on main street, 2003.
The houses could still be had for $50.K
Since then people have paid 10 times that.
real estate has been dropping 5% a month since July.
You, Steven, me, Craig Van Horn and Jesus Christ can't make those numbers work.
It is bad!!!!!
When the winds blow that house of cards down, we may all be smoking crack in the ally, bumming money, drinking beer at your place and be so homeless.
Until then Busting peoples chops because their hooked on crack, homeless, in your face or being a drunken bum is bad karma.
Steven, I disagree that the homeless are a problem downtown.
That rotten to the core Prison-church is a much larger drain on our city and and a much larger problem.
Help the homeless,House them downtown, feed them down, cloth them downtown,rehab them downtown.
If it has to happen in the middle of city hall, I'm all for it,
Fix the freaking problem, We need to quit sweeping everything under the bridge.
Homelessness is going to be the most pressing problem in the next few years.
During the depression they didn't send the homeless to family farms.
They would have been shot.
They took care of them downtown.
I just had an idea, Jaguars are losers, get rid of them.
Use the money that we waste on the team and a put a roof on the stadium.
Killer homeless shelter
Families in the box seats.
QuoteHe grabs a lead pipe from behind the bar and starts yelling
Don't use any weapon other than
foam pepper spray or a pistol, depending on the situation. You otherwise risk injury to yourself. Of course, use the pistol only if it is necessary to kill.
Foam pepper spray can be used indoors, and will not clear the place out like mist. I have used it many times at tableside on criminal vagrants whom I've caught begging at my bar, and would not desist when instructed. It is a wonderful tool. Google Fox brand foam with the flip top, or Mace brand Pepper Gel.
Quote from: triclops i on April 03, 2008, 05:18:33 PM
Just a few points:
- there is NEVER a valid reason to film someone takeing a crap. I dont care where, when, how. You just dont do that. If it is a public place, you should yell loudly at them to have some dignity and go elsewhere, but by filming them in the act, you become the asshole, no matter what your intentions are. Period.
- as the manager of popular bum hangout London Bridge for 4 years and current owner of a Springfeild pub, I know my Jacksonville bums. This is not rocket science....
HAVE SOME BALLS!
If someone (anyone) is becoming a problem to a customer, and it is usually a repeat offender (you see the same dudes every day. Thats the differance between a bum and a transient. Transients bum a quarter and you never see them again. Bums try to take advantage of people...), simply run them off! The Imperial had an arsenal of baseball bats and chair legs to run off crackheads! Occasionally, at London Bridge, you are going to have to knuckle up a bum! Its a fact... you can do it, then call the cops, and usually they will get arrested afterwords!
I am no fighter or violent dude, but if someone is interfering with your bussiness again and again then direct action may be the only option. I am not saying just go beating up homeless people by any means, but- the way I see it, if they keep violeting me or the place I am running then they are choosing to become my enemy.
Be direct. Look them in the eyes. Wave a big stick oround. Act crazier than they are. Act like you are calling the cops- they will leave if you really want them to! They have to! This is not a huge problem, just simply run the sorry sacks off! And if they are not bothering anyone, then let them be. But once a line is crossed, stand firm... they will go away, trust me.
CLOPS
YOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOY!!!! Clops!! What up son!!!
This is kinda the same thing I was saying earlier. If they bother you deal with em. If they are just sitting around playing chest and talking to each other why run them off?? Because they are dirty? That's no reason to find a PLACE FOR THE HOMELESS to go. I mean the homeless never bothered me. If I was annoyed prior to their approach they got ignored or dissed. If I was in a good mood, Id let em clean the rims on the honda for a few bux and keep it moving. If the homeless control what you do you really got issues. Like Triclops says if you let the homeless stop you from GETTING MONEY then anyone can stop you from it!! Let em be.
Quote from: heights unknown on April 03, 2008, 09:31:26 PM
Quote from: Trace on April 03, 2008, 04:28:17 PM
Stephendare, Heights, other:
And is the homeless problem really a "problem"? I know this sounds crazy, but only a small fraction of the population (and I know it's still a LOT of people) are homeless. And yes, it can happen to anyone, I suppose, but the comment "How many consecutive mistakes do you have to make to become (a typical) homeless." is a good one. There are a lot of mistakes being made out there, but only a scant fraction of the mistake makers are sleeping on the benches. I mean, unless you're dealt a really bad hand in life, there's an entrenched reason that you're out of a home. And for those very, very few who are normally a part of society and get dealt that nasty hand that puts them on the street usually manage to crawl back to the real world, if I'm not terribly mistaken.
I guess it is a problem because everyone complains about the homeless to the Police, Sheriff, and City Government, telling them to do something with those worthless, smelly, no good people; so I guess yes, it is a problem. It doesn't matter whether it is only a small fraction of the population, society yearns for perfection (which we'll never have in this life), and part of that perfection is getting rid of eye sores, and that is how many people feel about the homeless.
WHAT!?!?!? dude please speak for yourself. Who calls the police on the homeless? That's like calling the police on a raccoon or a stray cat. People are getting killed out here by thugs WITH homes and you calling JSO on the homeless?? Wow.......people are not your clones man. You can suggest a feeling, but to say everyone thinks what YOU think is bullshit.
Quote from: Tony Bowlasoupa on April 04, 2008, 10:53:55 AM
*disclaimer* overly simplified idealistic statement coming up:
The problem with the homeless and downtown is the ratio of homeless to regulars. If we can't reduce the homeless population, we just need to get more people downtown for more events (more permanent residents would be nice too course) but if you had more people, you can just ignore a bum and let them bother some other poor sap. It works well when I'm visiting nyc!
So for every event you go downtown, bring 5 friends! We just need to outnumber them, yeah thats the ticket!
This guy gets my vote!! I agree with you man......I don't know if you were joking but people getting involved in numbers will make the homeless almost invisible.
Quote
And keep in mind that as business owners, we get the brunt of it. Its not just some guy walking by, exuding homelessness as he passes menacingly. Its also the guys that demand to stand inside your space screaming and then when (in our case, John) has to make him leave because hes doing it in the middle of a performance, the guy comes back with a knife and repeatedly tries to stab you.
That makes about as much sense as a the pope going to a bathhouse to save souls. Stephen, a little clarification there please. Are you seriously saying that the brunt of your problems is because of the homeless? (Does craig have a home?) Methed up, drunk and crazed may have something to do with causing people to be homeless, but to say the casual vagabond working toward getting back on track is the problem is insanity itself. Rape, robbery, and burglary are crimes committed by very housed people after all. I'd venture to say that most crimes are committed by people that have a place to live. Come on, the problem there isn't that they are homeless.
PS I have a problem with people panhandling. That's your biggest problem with the homeless IMO.
LOL. It's 1:00 and I'm acting homeless in the Apple Store. It's what I do on Sunday. I've got that picture you wanted about the homeless in Austin. Here's proof it's not Jacksonville centric. My heart goes out the homeless and I solute everybody how helps their brother out. I'll post it on the tread once I get caffinated. I got verbally assaulted by the homeless while taking the picture and I was chased down by the homeless while walking away with the picture.
This park is next to the courthouse. (Don't ask how I know where the courthouse is having just moved to Austin less then 9 months ago suffice it to say it's a special "talent" I have ;D ) Anywho, I walk throught this park sometimes at night on my way to Whole Foods and there's always people there. I'd say there's less drug use in the park then other areas of town as I hear about bad areas of town on the news. At night the action isn't in this area, but rather in the warehouse district and 6th street so the panhandlers go there to get their handout and drugs or drug money I guess. The homeless head to the Salvation Army for a place to stay. The druggies are on the streets looking for trouble. We shouldn't confuse the two please. I think the people in the photo just don't like staying at the Salvation Army but are clean, but I'm just guessing I suppose I've not investigated this park late night but I could.
Hard numbers and statistics on homelessness from a recent survey, for those pulling that stuff out of you-know-where during this debate:
http://www.huduser.org/publications/povsoc/annual_assess.html ::)
I COME FROM NEBRASKA AND I ALWAYS BELIVED THAT WE WERE BEHIND TIMES. JACKSONVILLE, IT MAKES SHAKE MY HEAD AT IT. LOOK AND HEAR ME OUT. YOU WANT TO HELP THE HOMELESS AND HELP THE DOWNTOWN. FIRST YOU GO TO HAVE SOMEWHERE FOR THEM 2 GO. A DAY CENTER. 2 HAVE EVENTS JUST FOR THE HOMELESS. HAVE BINGO NIGHTS WHERE THERE IS A CASH PRIZE. YOU ALSO NEED TO HAVE A GREYHOUND BUS TICKET READY FOR ANY ONE THAT WANTS TO LEAVE. I KNOW OF ABOUT 2 DOZEN THAT WANT TO LEAVE. I SAY WE DO THAT. IF THERE NOT HERE MORE THE BETTER.
This was a blast from the past we could have done without LOL!
Columbia SC and Jax seem to have the biggest problems (real or perceived) with the Homeless issue., of the many cities I have lived in or visited. throughout the Southeast.
I thought this was quite relevant in that regard.
[url][http://www.thestate.com/2012/07/25/2367164/columbia-police-homeless-commited.html/url]
Very Interesting article out today. Is there any way we could get more of this type of thing moving in Jax? There are plenty of vacant lots to choose from, especially in LaVilla. http://www.citylab.com/housing/2015/05/the-case-for-giving-homes-to-the-homeless/392696/ (http://www.citylab.com/housing/2015/05/the-case-for-giving-homes-to-the-homeless/392696/) (http://cdn.citylab.com/media/img/citylab/2015/05/shutterstock_128196476/lead_large.jpg?GE2DGMJTG42DEOJTFYYA====)
Quote from: UNFurbanist on May 11, 2015, 09:54:02 PM
In Charlotte, North Carolina, people who have a history of homelessness, as well as physical or mental disabilities, can get their own apartment at a non-profit-run, 85-unit complex called Moore Place. The development runs on the "housing-first" approach to homelessness: give people the keys to their own residence, then try to resolve the issues that led them to lose their homes. The model essentially flips a more longstanding approach that many people call the "treatment-first" model, which focuses on fixing the problems before providing the housing.
Despite its limited applications, the housing-first approach has been successful in a number of cities, and a new study suggests Moore Place is no exception. Researchers at the University of North Carolina-Charlotte report that not only do housing projects like Moore Place dramatically help the homeless population, but they also help cities save money and free up civic resources.
"Putting a person in housing as an early step in the intervention process actually creates a foundation for health and well-being and for them to actually begin to address the issues that they've struggled with over time," Lori Thomas, a professor of social work in the College of Health and Human Services at UNC-Charlotte, tells CityLab. "It really upends the model that we've used for so long."
Quote from: UNFurbanist on May 11, 2015, 10:10:38 PM
Very Interesting article out today. Is there any way we could get more of this type of thing moving in Jax? There are plenty of vacant lots to choose from, especially in LaVilla. http://www.citylab.com/housing/2015/05/the-case-for-giving-homes-to-the-homeless/392696/ (http://www.citylab.com/housing/2015/05/the-case-for-giving-homes-to-the-homeless/392696/) (http://cdn.citylab.com/media/img/citylab/2015/05/shutterstock_128196476/lead_large.jpg?GE2DGMJTG42DEOJTFYYA====)Quote from: UNFurbanist on May 11, 2015, 09:54:02 PM
In Charlotte, North Carolina, people who have a history of homelessness, as well as physical or mental disabilities, can get their own apartment at a non-profit-run, 85-unit complex called Moore Place. The development runs on the "housing-first" approach to homelessness: give people the keys to their own residence, then try to resolve the issues that led them to lose their homes. The model essentially flips a more longstanding approach that many people call the "treatment-first" model, which focuses on fixing the problems before providing the housing.
Despite its limited applications, the housing-first approach has been successful in a number of cities, and a new study suggests Moore Place is no exception. Researchers at the University of North Carolina-Charlotte report that not only do housing projects like Moore Place dramatically help the homeless population, but they also help cities save money and free up civic resources.
"Putting a person in housing as an early step in the intervention process actually creates a foundation for health and well-being and for them to actually begin to address the issues that they've struggled with over time," Lori Thomas, a professor of social work in the College of Health and Human Services at UNC-Charlotte, tells CityLab. "It really upends the model that we've used for so long."
We do have that in Jax. Ability Housing is one of the agencies that is pushing the 'housing first' model in Jax:
http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2011-12-09/story/one-down-99-go-group-moves-its-first-homeless-client-place-his-own#ixzz1gMKKXbr3 (http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2011-12-09/story/one-down-99-go-group-moves-its-first-homeless-client-place-his-own#ixzz1gMKKXbr3)
With the help of JP Morgan Chase, Ability Housing is also expanding into Orlando:
http://abilityhousing.org/ability-housing-gets-grants-to-expand-into-central-florida-and-help-alleviate-homelessness/ (http://abilityhousing.org/ability-housing-gets-grants-to-expand-into-central-florida-and-help-alleviate-homelessness/)
Unfortunately, they have experienced pushback in their own hometown:
http://jacksonville.com/opinion/editorials/2014-04-16/story/ability-housing-committed-being-good-neighbor-springfield (http://jacksonville.com/opinion/editorials/2014-04-16/story/ability-housing-committed-being-good-neighbor-springfield)
http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2014-05-30/story/planning-boss-homeless-apartments-not-allowed-springfield (http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2014-05-30/story/planning-boss-homeless-apartments-not-allowed-springfield)
As has been the case with some City officials lately (like Kim Scott), former Planning Director Calvin Burney's 'interpretation' opens COJ to Fair Housing lawsuits like this similar case in New Orleans:
http://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/city-new-orleans-agrees-settlement-resolve-housing-discrimination-lawsuit (http://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/city-new-orleans-agrees-settlement-resolve-housing-discrimination-lawsuit)
How about La Villa then (as was suggested). There isn't anything there and this could help the neighborhood.
I've always thought that JaxPort should donate a bunch of used shipping containers to ability housing so they can build something like this in LaVilla.http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2015/02/26/shipping-container-apartments/24076583/ (http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2015/02/26/shipping-container-apartments/24076583/) (http://tysonandbilly.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/111201050158-shipping-containers-france-horizontal-gallery.jpg)
For you fans of reusing shipping containers, this project in Greenville SC will incorporate several of them. There will also be an area for Food Truck parking included in addition to renovating and re-purposing two buildings. The buildings are pretty nondescript, but with the changes the project as a whole looks pretty cool.
http://www.greenvillesc.gov/AgendaCenter/ViewFile/Item/2795?fileID=7939 (http://www.greenvillesc.gov/AgendaCenter/ViewFile/Item/2795?fileID=7939)
An article with more description:
http://upstatebusinessjournal.com/news/keys-village-planned-for-north-of-broad-district/ (http://upstatebusinessjournal.com/news/keys-village-planned-for-north-of-broad-district/)
QuotePicture a mixed-use village that's edgy, with industrial elements and repurposed shipping containers thrown into the design. Parking for a food truck or two. A brewery and restaurant with roll-up doors to the outside. People gathered at rows of picnic tables with lights strung overhead watching live music or perhaps an indie movie on the outdoor stage and projection screen. That's the vision for Keys Village.
The outdoor area will be called the Court Yard, named for the backdrop views of the Federal Courthouse building, and will feature a 20-foot covered patio and a 20-foot canopy trellis. Navarro says he is expecting the space to be active "five or six nights a week." Audio-visual will be state-of-the-art to comply with city noise ordinances, and they're looking at a mobile app that can provide sound from the movies and bands to a personal headset. "Sort of like a silent rave," he said.
The cargo containers could possibly hold patio furniture by day and then can be used to service patrons in the evening.
The three-story building on the side of the property has 2,200 square feet per floor and can be subdivided, said Navarro. The space is open with lots of windows, and the top floor has great views, he said. This building is expected to house mostly office tenants, with possibly retail on the ground floor. An elevator tower will be built out of two end-to-end cargo containers, and a "very cool mural" is planned for the side of the building facing Church Street.