Instead of Corporations, Why Not Invest in People?
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Should we be investing in people instead of corporations? Progressive Editorialist Robert Montgomery suggests it may be time for a change in our priorities.
Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2013-aug-instead-of-corporations-why-not-invest-in-people
Quote from: Metro Jacksonville on August 07, 2013, 03:01:13 AM
Instead of Corporations, Why Not Invest in People?
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Other/miscellaneous-banners/i-nXFfFXc/0/O/robertmontgomery.jpg)
Should we be investing in people instead of corporations? Progressive Editorialist Robert Montgomery suggests it may be time for a change in our priorities.
Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2013-aug-instead-of-corporations-why-not-invest-in-people (http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2013-aug-instead-of-corporations-why-not-invest-in-people)
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If the cost of producing the goods or providing the services goes up the cost of the final product or service will rise also. I know this because I do it in my line of work.
Who does he think the corporations are? Nameless, faceless, monsters living in big boxes? Corporations ARE people, they are made up of business people, entrepreneur's, skilled and unskilled workers, in fact that corporation itself is an invisible 'person' with rights to buy, sell and trade as any other person has.
Minimum wage was never supposed to be a 'living wage.' it is merely an entry level into the business world. Don't progress, educate yourself and move forward, and you can stay at that entry level for a lifetime. Get that education or training and you can climb the ladder.
We have become a 'nanny state' with a legion of 'victims' thinking they are owed something. If you want the rewards, you need to pay the dues.
Ocklawaha, how to you reconcile that with the reality that during the 50's and 60's when the National Minimum Wage was indexed to the cost of living that not only did it keep almost 70% percent of the population above the poverty level, but that also the increased money circulating in the system from consumer spending kept prices for most consumer good low?
I'm sure your answer to that will probably be that price invariably go up but wouldn't you, at least, concede that if wages didn't flatline after 1972, that demand would have have slowed the increase in the price of production?
Also during the period of deregulation that happened during the Reagan and Clinton eras, here in the South when many companies came here to take advantage of lower wages, they paid something closer to a living wage. For example in the area it was not uncommon that people make perhaps a few bucks an hour above the minimum of 4.25 an hour. Service industry positions in the Baymeadows area paid as high as 3 to 4 dollars above the minimum and the resulting purchasing power resulted in a boom for local business. Many companies grew as the city grew which slowed as wages flatlined.
Man would it have been sweet to make $15 bucks in hour in high school as a cashier at Winn Dixie....which would last about 2 weeks until Winn Dixie made every lane self checkout.
Apparently you haven't seen Winn Dixie's employees either....and I say that as a former Winn Dixie cashier that was happy to make $5.15 an hour in high school.
Aunt Margie bless her heart wouldn't have a choice anymore. In an era where we're losing low wage jobs like crazy to technology and autmotation, an outrageous minimum wage is a surefire way to make the issue even worse. I'm all for trying to build a strong middle class, but dont think that is the way to go about it.
It's funny that you picked big retailers as your target. First, they aren't extracting "untold billions" from helpless consumers. There are definitely some corporate responsibility and stewardship pouts that could be made here, but the margins aren't nearly as steep as you would like to believe. An across the board wage increase of $1 or $2 for companies would either wipe out the company would require that they pass that expense through to the customer. It would be a net zero outcome for the employees as they'd have more money to pay for more goods, but then what would happen to the unemployed who just had their bills go up by 15%? our modern economy depends on cheap food and goods to survive. If we take that away, we would see some pretty drastic results.
Quote from: Ocklawaha on August 07, 2013, 02:06:05 PM
Who does he think the corporations are? Nameless, faceless, monsters living in big boxes? Corporations ARE people, they are made up of business people, entrepreneur's, skilled and unskilled workers, in fact that corporation itself is an invisible 'person' with rights to buy, sell and trade as any other person has.
Minimum wage was never supposed to be a 'living wage.' it is merely an entry level into the business world. Don't progress, educate yourself and move forward, and you can stay at that entry level for a lifetime. Get that education or training and you can climb the ladder.
We have become a 'nanny state' with a legion of 'victims' thinking they are owed something. If you want the rewards, you need to pay the dues.
So anyone can move up the business ladder of life? Poppy Cock not everyone wants or can move up the ladder. So if they stay on the bottom of the ladder they should always be paid the lowest wage? What World do you live in Fantasy Land? God Ock even $15.00 an hour doesn't get you very far today. With gas at $3.58 a gallon and the cost of food through the roof. ::)
Quote from: If_I_Loved_you on August 07, 2013, 03:09:26 PM
So anyone can move up the business ladder of life?
Yes sirree.
QuotePoppy Cock not everyone wants or can move up the ladder. So if they stay on the bottom of the ladder they should always be paid the lowest wage?
If you don't 'want' to then you should be clamoring to 'want' more. And 'can't' is a tricky word. Sometimes people genuinely 'can't' do things, but often times it's because they don't 'want' to learn the skills required.
QuoteWhat World do you live in Fantasy Land? God Ock even $15.00 an hour doesn't get you very far today. With gas at $3.58 a gallon and the cost of food through the roof. ::)
It may not get you very far, but it will certainly get you along. Somewhat comfortably, if you know how.
What fantasy world do you live in, IILY, that you can't 'get by' at $600/wk pre-tax?
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on August 07, 2013, 03:17:51 PM
Quote from: If_I_Loved_you on August 07, 2013, 03:09:26 PM
So anyone can move up the business ladder of life?
Yes sirree.
QuotePoppy Cock not everyone wants or can move up the ladder. So if they stay on the bottom of the ladder they should always be paid the lowest wage?
If you don't 'want' to then you should be clamoring to 'want' more. And 'can't' is a tricky word. Sometimes people genuinely 'can't' do things, but often times it's because they don't 'want' to learn the skills required.
QuoteWhat World do you live in Fantasy Land? God Ock even $15.00 an hour doesn't get you very far today. With gas at $3.58 a gallon and the cost of food through the roof. ::)
It may not get you very far, but it will certainly get you along. Somewhat comfortably, if you know how.
What fantasy world do you live in, IILY, that you can't 'get by' at $600/wk pre-tax?
+1,000,000
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on August 07, 2013, 03:17:51 PM
Quote from: If_I_Loved_you on August 07, 2013, 03:09:26 PM
So anyone can move up the business ladder of life?
Yes sirree.
QuotePoppy Cock not everyone wants or can move up the ladder. So if they stay on the bottom of the ladder they should always be paid the lowest wage?
If you don't 'want' to then you should be clamoring to 'want' more. And 'can't' is a tricky word. Sometimes people genuinely 'can't' do things, but often times it's because they don't 'want' to learn the skills required.
QuoteWhat World do you live in Fantasy Land? God Ock even $15.00 an hour doesn't get you very far today. With gas at $3.58 a gallon and the cost of food through the roof. ::)
It may not get you very far, but it will certainly get you along. Somewhat comfortably, if you know how.
What fantasy world do you live in, IILY, that you can't 'get by' at $600/wk pre-tax?
I live in the real world Non-Redneck besides did I say this is what I make?
No. No you never said that's what you make, but you must have some sort of personal insight to the situation based on:
Quote from: If_I_Loved_you on August 07, 2013, 03:09:26 PM
God Ock even $15.00 an hour doesn't get you very far today.
Quote from: If_I_Loved_you on August 07, 2013, 03:09:26 PM
Quote from: Ocklawaha on August 07, 2013, 02:06:05 PM
Who does he think the corporations are? Nameless, faceless, monsters living in big boxes? Corporations ARE people, they are made up of business people, entrepreneur's, skilled and unskilled workers, in fact that corporation itself is an invisible 'person' with rights to buy, sell and trade as any other person has.
Minimum wage was never supposed to be a 'living wage.' it is merely an entry level into the business world. Don't progress, educate yourself and move forward, and you can stay at that entry level for a lifetime. Get that education or training and you can climb the ladder.
We have become a 'nanny state' with a legion of 'victims' thinking they are owed something. If you want the rewards, you need to pay the dues.
So anyone can move up the business ladder of life? Poppy Cock not everyone wants or can move up the ladder. So if they stay on the bottom of the ladder they should always be paid the lowest wage? What World do you live in Fantasy Land? God Ock even $15.00 an hour doesn't get you very far today. With gas at $3.58 a gallon and the cost of food through the roof. ::)
If they don't want to move up the ladder, then yes they should be getting the lowest wage. If the person doesn't want to better himself (or herself) then why do they deserve to get paid equivalent to a person who wants something better and is willing to work for it?
The way it used to work was someone came in at the bottom and moved up the ladder to a better job (or new company) with better wages and some new person would come in and replace the person at the bottom.
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on August 07, 2013, 03:48:50 PM
No. No you never said that's what you make, but you must have some sort of personal insight to the situation based on:
Quote from: If_I_Loved_you on August 07, 2013, 03:09:26 PM
God Ock even $15.00 an hour doesn't get you very far today.
Well the newspapers and internet have been talking about what fast food workers would like to be paid? And then you look at the costs around Jacksonville Fl. ;)
So IILY, in the Real World we are suppose to reward someone who just does the bare minimum to get by with pay increases just because ... Well just because they showed up? The ladder exists in every class, every job, every social setting ... If you aren't climbing it you are waiting to expire ... It's a ladder. If you think someone cannot survive off of $15/hr come visit me at 134 Church Street (Immaculate Conception) some Saturday morning and I'll introduce you to 100+ families that survive on less than $250/week before taxes. Not to mention the millions in the state who survive off of $200 each month is good stamps plus an $1100/month disability check.
Quote from: If_I_Loved_you on August 07, 2013, 03:56:48 PM
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on August 07, 2013, 03:48:50 PM
No. No you never said that's what you make, but you must have some sort of personal insight to the situation based on:
Quote from: If_I_Loved_you on August 07, 2013, 03:09:26 PM
God Ock even $15.00 an hour doesn't get you very far today.
Well the newspapers and internet have been talking about what fast food workers would like to be paid? And then you look at the costs around Jacksonville Fl. ;)
Good point. I tend you rely more heavily on what I read in the news and see on the internet than what I see in person with my own eyes all the time. And the costs, OMG the freaking COSTS!!!!!!! Of what? Are we looking at the costs of groceries, gas, entertainment, utilities... what?
So what you're saying is.... you don't have a clue how far a $15/hr job will get you. But thanks for playing.
Quote from: If_I_Loved_you on August 07, 2013, 03:56:48 PM
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on August 07, 2013, 03:48:50 PM
No. No you never said that's what you make, but you must have some sort of personal insight to the situation based on:
Quote from: If_I_Loved_you on August 07, 2013, 03:09:26 PM
God Ock even $15.00 an hour doesn't get you very far today.
Well the newspapers and internet have been talking about what fast food workers would like to be paid? And then you look at the costs around Jacksonville Fl. ;)
What a group of people would like to be paid and what the reality of the world dictates are usually two very different things. That $15 for fast food stemmed from a union in NYC demanding more money for the workers they represent, which in turn gives them more money in their pockets. However, even their attempt at protesting fall flat on their face with barely a showing. Why? Because no one is suppose to make a career out of being a line worker at McDonalds. If you choose to, more power to you for being happy in life, but it is not supposed to be the benchmark.
If you aren't motivated to go up the ladder, you usually find yourself let go at my company unless you just have a niche that we find essential.
Quote from: carpnter on August 07, 2013, 03:56:16 PM
Quote from: If_I_Loved_you on August 07, 2013, 03:09:26 PM
Quote from: Ocklawaha on August 07, 2013, 02:06:05 PM
Who does he think the corporations are? Nameless, faceless, monsters living in big boxes? Corporations ARE people, they are made up of business people, entrepreneur's, skilled and unskilled workers, in fact that corporation itself is an invisible 'person' with rights to buy, sell and trade as any other person has.
Minimum wage was never supposed to be a 'living wage.' it is merely an entry level into the business world. Don't progress, educate yourself and move forward, and you can stay at that entry level for a lifetime. Get that education or training and you can climb the ladder.
We have become a 'nanny state' with a legion of 'victims' thinking they are owed something. If you want the rewards, you need to pay the dues.
So anyone can move up the business ladder of life? Poppy Cock not everyone wants or can move up the ladder. So if they stay on the bottom of the ladder they should always be paid the lowest wage? What World do you live in Fantasy Land? God Ock even $15.00 an hour doesn't get you very far today. With gas at $3.58 a gallon and the cost of food through the roof. ::)
If they don't want to move up the ladder, then yes they should be getting the lowest wage. If the person doesn't want to better himself (or herself) then why do they deserve to get paid equivalent to a person who wants something better and is willing to work for it?
The way it used to work was someone came in at the bottom and moved up the ladder to a better job (or new company) with better wages and some new person would come in and replace the person at the bottom.
So the people who don't move up because they don't want to should live like crap? Well it looks like it's time for the Fast food Workers to Strike? But don't worry about your job here in the good old state of Florida we are a right to work state. So when your boss lets you go they don't have to tell you why. And that Unemployed Engineer that hasn't worked in 18 months can take over. Because he/she can't stand not working anymore!
Quote from: fsquid on August 07, 2013, 04:03:37 PM
If you aren't motivated to go up the ladder, you usually find yourself let go at my company unless you just have a niche that we find essential.
I actually got off the ladder about 6 months ago and am loving every minute of it. It does require that one thing that IILY keeps hinting around regarding the bare minimum, though - it's called motivation. Some people have it, some don't. The minimum wage for people who run their own show is -$0-, so there is that.
Quote from: If_I_Loved_you on August 07, 2013, 04:10:22 PM
So the people who don't move up because they don't want to should live like crap?
Absolutely!
Quote from: If_I_Loved_you on August 07, 2013, 04:10:22 PM
Quote from: carpnter on August 07, 2013, 03:56:16 PM
Quote from: If_I_Loved_you on August 07, 2013, 03:09:26 PM
Quote from: Ocklawaha on August 07, 2013, 02:06:05 PM
Who does he think the corporations are? Nameless, faceless, monsters living in big boxes? Corporations ARE people, they are made up of business people, entrepreneur's, skilled and unskilled workers, in fact that corporation itself is an invisible 'person' with rights to buy, sell and trade as any other person has.
Minimum wage was never supposed to be a 'living wage.' it is merely an entry level into the business world. Don't progress, educate yourself and move forward, and you can stay at that entry level for a lifetime. Get that education or training and you can climb the ladder.
We have become a 'nanny state' with a legion of 'victims' thinking they are owed something. If you want the rewards, you need to pay the dues.
So anyone can move up the business ladder of life? Poppy Cock not everyone wants or can move up the ladder. So if they stay on the bottom of the ladder they should always be paid the lowest wage? What World do you live in Fantasy Land? God Ock even $15.00 an hour doesn't get you very far today. With gas at $3.58 a gallon and the cost of food through the roof. ::)
If they don't want to move up the ladder, then yes they should be getting the lowest wage. If the person doesn't want to better himself (or herself) then why do they deserve to get paid equivalent to a person who wants something better and is willing to work for it?
The way it used to work was someone came in at the bottom and moved up the ladder to a better job (or new company) with better wages and some new person would come in and replace the person at the bottom.
So the people who don't move up because they don't want to should live like crap? Well it looks like it's time for the Fast food Workers to Strike? But don't worry about your job here in the good old state of Florida we are a right to work state. So when your boss lets you go they don't have to tell you why. And that Unemployed Engineer that hasn't worked in 18 months can take over. Because he/she can't stand not working anymore!
So bottom line, you believe that people should get raises just for showing up?
Quote from: If_I_Loved_you on August 07, 2013, 04:10:22 PM
Quote from: carpnter on August 07, 2013, 03:56:16 PM
Quote from: If_I_Loved_you on August 07, 2013, 03:09:26 PM
Quote from: Ocklawaha on August 07, 2013, 02:06:05 PM
Who does he think the corporations are? Nameless, faceless, monsters living in big boxes? Corporations ARE people, they are made up of business people, entrepreneur's, skilled and unskilled workers, in fact that corporation itself is an invisible 'person' with rights to buy, sell and trade as any other person has.
Minimum wage was never supposed to be a 'living wage.' it is merely an entry level into the business world. Don't progress, educate yourself and move forward, and you can stay at that entry level for a lifetime. Get that education or training and you can climb the ladder.
We have become a 'nanny state' with a legion of 'victims' thinking they are owed something. If you want the rewards, you need to pay the dues.
So anyone can move up the business ladder of life? Poppy Cock not everyone wants or can move up the ladder. So if they stay on the bottom of the ladder they should always be paid the lowest wage? What World do you live in Fantasy Land? God Ock even $15.00 an hour doesn't get you very far today. With gas at $3.58 a gallon and the cost of food through the roof. ::)
If they don't want to move up the ladder, then yes they should be getting the lowest wage. If the person doesn't want to better himself (or herself) then why do they deserve to get paid equivalent to a person who wants something better and is willing to work for it?
The way it used to work was someone came in at the bottom and moved up the ladder to a better job (or new company) with better wages and some new person would come in and replace the person at the bottom.
So the people who don't move up because they don't want to should live like crap? Well it looks like it's time for the Fast food Workers to Strike? But don't worry about your job here in the good old state of Florida we are a right to work state. So when your boss lets you go they don't have to tell you why. And that Unemployed Engineer that hasn't worked in 18 months can take over. Because he/she can't stand not working anymore!
I realize you're trolling...but if you really want to see strikes and protests, wait till you see what all the young college graduates making $15-$20 an hour do when they find out they could have dropped out of high school, worked at Wal Mart and not had any student loan debt. Talk about a revolution....
Quote from: JayBird on August 07, 2013, 04:13:59 PM
Quote from: If_I_Loved_you on August 07, 2013, 04:10:22 PM
Quote from: carpnter on August 07, 2013, 03:56:16 PM
Quote from: If_I_Loved_you on August 07, 2013, 03:09:26 PM
Quote from: Ocklawaha on August 07, 2013, 02:06:05 PM
Who does he think the corporations are? Nameless, faceless, monsters living in big boxes? Corporations ARE people, they are made up of business people, entrepreneur's, skilled and unskilled workers, in fact that corporation itself is an invisible 'person' with rights to buy, sell and trade as any other person has.
Minimum wage was never supposed to be a 'living wage.' it is merely an entry level into the business world. Don't progress, educate yourself and move forward, and you can stay at that entry level for a lifetime. Get that education or training and you can climb the ladder.
We have become a 'nanny state' with a legion of 'victims' thinking they are owed something. If you want the rewards, you need to pay the dues.
So anyone can move up the business ladder of life? Poppy Cock not everyone wants or can move up the ladder. So if they stay on the bottom of the ladder they should always be paid the lowest wage? What World do you live in Fantasy Land? God Ock even $15.00 an hour doesn't get you very far today. With gas at $3.58 a gallon and the cost of food through the roof. ::)
If they don't want to move up the ladder, then yes they should be getting the lowest wage. If the person doesn't want to better himself (or herself) then why do they deserve to get paid equivalent to a person who wants something better and is willing to work for it?
The way it used to work was someone came in at the bottom and moved up the ladder to a better job (or new company) with better wages and some new person would come in and replace the person at the bottom.
So the people who don't move up because they don't want to should live like crap? Well it looks like it's time for the Fast food Workers to Strike? But don't worry about your job here in the good old state of Florida we are a right to work state. So when your boss lets you go they don't have to tell you why. And that Unemployed Engineer that hasn't worked in 18 months can take over. Because he/she can't stand not working anymore!
So bottom line, you believe that people should get raises just for showing up?
::) No! One must do the work I'm not saying give people $15.00 dollars an hour and do nothing.
Quote from: CityLife on August 07, 2013, 04:16:56 PM
Quote from: If_I_Loved_you on August 07, 2013, 04:10:22 PM
Quote from: carpnter on August 07, 2013, 03:56:16 PM
Quote from: If_I_Loved_you on August 07, 2013, 03:09:26 PM
Quote from: Ocklawaha on August 07, 2013, 02:06:05 PM
Who does he think the corporations are? Nameless, faceless, monsters living in big boxes? Corporations ARE people, they are made up of business people, entrepreneur's, skilled and unskilled workers, in fact that corporation itself is an invisible 'person' with rights to buy, sell and trade as any other person has.
Minimum wage was never supposed to be a 'living wage.' it is merely an entry level into the business world. Don't progress, educate yourself and move forward, and you can stay at that entry level for a lifetime. Get that education or training and you can climb the ladder.
We have become a 'nanny state' with a legion of 'victims' thinking they are owed something. If you want the rewards, you need to pay the dues.
So anyone can move up the business ladder of life? Poppy Cock not everyone wants or can move up the ladder. So if they stay on the bottom of the ladder they should always be paid the lowest wage? What World do you live in Fantasy Land? God Ock even $15.00 an hour doesn't get you very far today. With gas at $3.58 a gallon and the cost of food through the roof. ::)
If they don't want to move up the ladder, then yes they should be getting the lowest wage. If the person doesn't want to better himself (or herself) then why do they deserve to get paid equivalent to a person who wants something better and is willing to work for it?
The way it used to work was someone came in at the bottom and moved up the ladder to a better job (or new company) with better wages and some new person would come in and replace the person at the bottom.
So the people who don't move up because they don't want to should live like crap? Well it looks like it's time for the Fast food Workers to Strike? But don't worry about your job here in the good old state of Florida we are a right to work state. So when your boss lets you go they don't have to tell you why. And that Unemployed Engineer that hasn't worked in 18 months can take over. Because he/she can't stand not working anymore!
I realize you're trolling...but if you really want to see strikes and protests, wait till you see what all the young college graduates making $15-$20 an hour do when they find out they could have dropped out of high school, worked at Wal Mart and not had any student loan debt. Talk about a revolution....
God I love it when you Know it all's bring out the Trolling Card you remind me of Conservative Republicans!
Quote from: JayBird on August 07, 2013, 04:13:59 PM
So bottom line, you believe that people should get raises just for showing up?
Unfortunately, this is a concept that IILY probably will never understand.
Personal story: I have worked at Lowe's. And about 7 years ago, I signed up, part-time (10-15 hrs/wk) for insurance benefits only. I had a full time job with shitty insurance. Theirs was better. After 6 months of working there, I had to leave. Why? Because I did show up. And my 10-15 started becoming 25, 30. 34... basically they wanted more of me because if I was on the schedule, I'd show up. It's amazing how many of these people that NEED a job, can't seem to SHOW UP. And granted, there are those who show up and bust ass, but they're not the ones crying for a raise in the MINIMUM wage. It's people like IILY that don't have a clue what the average, lower end employee deals with on a personal level - only what they've :
Quote from: If_I_Loved_you on August 07, 2013, 03:56:48 PM
Well the newspapers and internet have been talking about what fast food workers would like to be paid?
you know, READ ABOUT in the newspaper. ::)
So you're really advocating for an across the board minimum wage increase. In 1996 when I first entered the legal workforce working during summers the min wage was 5.15. Today it is 7.35. Do we really have more money? I think it never works out that way, inevitably the cost is passed on to consumer. If the minimum wage was $15, you would still be here posting how they really need $23 an hour.
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on August 07, 2013, 04:24:35 PM
Quote from: JayBird on August 07, 2013, 04:13:59 PM
So bottom line, you believe that people should get raises just for showing up?
Unfortunately, this is a concept that IILY probably will never understand.
Personal story: I have worked at Lowe's. And about 7 years ago, I signed up, part-time (10-15 hrs/wk) for insurance benefits only. I had a full time job with shitty insurance. Theirs was better. After 6 months of working there, I had to leave. Why? Because I did show up. And my 10-15 started becoming 25, 30. 34... basically they wanted more of me because if I was on the schedule, I'd show up. It's amazing how many of these people that NEED a job, can't seem to SHOW UP. And granted, there are those who show up and bust ass, but they're not the ones crying for a raise in the MINIMUM wage. It's people like IILY that don't have a clue what the average, lower end employee deals with on a personal level - only what they've :
Quote from: If_I_Loved_you on August 07, 2013, 03:56:48 PM
Well the newspapers and internet have been talking about what fast food workers would like to be paid?
you know, READ ABOUT in the newspaper. ::)
+100
Quote from: JayBird on August 07, 2013, 04:26:59 PM
So you're really advocating for an across the board minimum wage increase. In 1996 when I first entered the legal workforce working during summers the min wage was 5.15. Today it is 7.35. Do we really have more money? I think it never works out that way, inevitably the cost is passed on to consumer. If the minimum wage was $15, you would still be here posting how they really need $23 an hour.
Not true, besides it isn't going to happen. Corporations will keep the matrix going just about forever?
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on August 07, 2013, 04:24:35 PM
Quote from: JayBird on August 07, 2013, 04:13:59 PM
So bottom line, you believe that people should get raises just for showing up?
Unfortunately, this is a concept that IILY probably will never understand.
Personal story: I have worked at Lowe's. And about 7 years ago, I signed up, part-time (10-15 hrs/wk) for insurance benefits only. I had a full time job with shitty insurance. Theirs was better. After 6 months of working there, I had to leave. Why? Because I did show up. And my 10-15 started becoming 25, 30. 34... basically they wanted more of me because if I was on the schedule, I'd show up. It's amazing how many of these people that NEED a job, can't seem to SHOW UP. And granted, there are those who show up and bust ass, but they're not the ones crying for a raise in the MINIMUM wage. It's people like IILY that don't have a clue what the average, lower end employee deals with on a personal level - only what they've :
Quote from: If_I_Loved_you on August 07, 2013, 03:56:48 PM
Well the newspapers and internet have been talking about what fast food workers would like to be paid?
you know, READ ABOUT in the newspaper. ::)
:'(
Quote from: If_I_Loved_you on August 07, 2013, 04:43:02 PM
Quote from: JayBird on August 07, 2013, 04:26:59 PM
So you're really advocating for an across the board minimum wage increase. In 1996 when I first entered the legal workforce working during summers the min wage was 5.15. Today it is 7.35. Do we really have more money? I think it never works out that way, inevitably the cost is passed on to consumer. If the minimum wage was $15, you would still be here posting how they really need $23 an hour.
Not true, besides it isn't going to happen. Corporations will keep the matrix going just about forever?
Which part is not true? And include mom and pop and farmer Joe in there because it isn't a corporation thing, its a business thing. Done the same way across the world, because even the man in Tokyo who is paying $2 a day to make sneakers needs to make a profit.
Quote from: If_I_Loved_you on August 07, 2013, 04:43:02 PM
Quote from: JayBird on August 07, 2013, 04:26:59 PM
So you're really advocating for an across the board minimum wage increase. In 1996 when I first entered the legal workforce working during summers the min wage was 5.15. Today it is 7.35. Do we really have more money? I think it never works out that way, inevitably the cost is passed on to consumer. If the minimum wage was $15, you would still be here posting how they really need $23 an hour.
Not true, besides it isn't going to happen. Corporations will keep the matrix going just about forever?
I do think its fair to say that corporations do need to invest more in people & the communities around them if they expect to operate in the areas that are beneficial to them & make them money. Before, there was a lot healthier give & take. Now, that doesn't seem to be the case at all. They're hoarding oodles amounts of money, while maximization profits by paying the lowest amount of wages they can get away with, keeping everyone part time, taking advantage of immigrants (both legal & illegal), slave wages in China, etc. All to the point where its almost hopeless to be able to move up that "ladder" at any of these places. Thats just the reality a lot of people are living now, and it doesnt seem to be getting better. http://www.businessinsider.com/companies-need-to-pay-people-more-2013-8
That doesnt mean someone flipping burgers should be making $15 an hour though, but then again, they can't possibly live any kind of decent life without assistant in this current state (usually from big daddy government & us). But the sad fact is, there's a lot of those types of "burger flippers" jobs out there & not much else for many many people nowadays. We've allowed giant global corporations to take over our country, thus take over our lives in many ways. And like I said, they only care about money & the bottom line. Not about improving the lives of anyone or the community.
Quote from: theduvalprogressive on August 07, 2013, 02:31:22 PM
Ocklawaha, how to you reconcile that with the reality that during the 50's and 60's when the National Minimum Wage was indexed to the cost of living that not only did it keep almost 70% percent of the population above the poverty level, but that also the increased money circulating in the system from consumer spending kept prices for most consumer good low?
What part of MINIMUM do you not understand?
QuoteI'm sure your answer to that will probably be that price invariably go up but wouldn't you, at least, concede that if wages didn't flatline after 1972, that demand would have have slowed the increase in the price of production?
Also during the period of deregulation that happened during the Reagan and Clinton eras, here in the South when many companies came here to take advantage of lower wages, they paid something closer to a living wage. For example in the area it was not uncommon that people make perhaps a few bucks an hour above the minimum of 4.25 an hour. Service industry positions in the Baymeadows area paid as high as 3 to 4 dollars above the minimum and the resulting purchasing power resulted in a boom for local business. Many companies grew as the city grew which slowed as wages flatlined.
The economy is in the tank, smoke and mirrors everywhere and you think a business entrepreneur running a "Boomtown," should give every summer high schooler and college student $15.00 dollars an hour?
"INCOMING! PREPARE FOR A BROADSIDE! SHES DOWN BY THE BOW MATE," reality check.
You're assuming that everyone who works for a big box retailer is a student. That's a false assumption.
Quote from: theduvalprogressive on August 08, 2013, 08:21:32 AM
You're assuming that everyone who works for a big box retailer is a student. That's a false assumption.
+1000
sure......but you've assumed that everyone that works at fast food, retail, etc is making minimum. Some rise. Shoot ask most managers and the worker that shows up when scheduled is golden and likely making more than the slackers that don't show up.
I have worked 40 hours a week at 9.00 an hour- supporting a household of 3.
It left me *65$ a MONTH for groceries.
I have always been grateful for food assistance, because my employer (small business of 7 people) did not offer overtime, (not that I could have taken it, being a single parent of two small children) nor did my employer seem to care that I ate ramen for lunch 5 days a week, (if I could eat lunch at all) and payed my light bill in 20 dollar increments.
People who are against a minimum wage increase seem to overlook the fact that lots of corporations are receiving government "welfare" (subsidies) and they seem to forget where that money actually comes from.
My husband and I both own small business'- and he is badly in need of an employee- but he won't employ someone unless he can pay them a living wage. We both agree that if someone is working 40+ hours a week- they deserve to be paid enough to able to eat and pay their bills. 7.15 an hour doesn't do that.
Did anyone else see the lovely "budget" website that McD's made, trying to prove that employees can live on min wage? Forgive that this link goes to the Colbert Report website (because he did the most entertaining commentary on it) but it certainly is comedic fodder.
http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/427948/july-22-2013/minimum-wage---mcdonald-s-spending-journal?xrs=playershare_fb
*I didn't want to lay out the entirety of my poverty for the whole forum, so if you want to challenge my budgeting on 9.00 an hour, PM me.
Golden,
Speaking for myself, I'm only against the minimum wage increase because of the ramifications that come from providing for those only interested in minimums.
I strongly believe that the majority of the posters on this thread think that cable TV, gym memberships, yoga classes, a membership at the golf/yacht club, a $400 car payment and $60 for a dinner 2-3 times a week is 'basic living'. In a word - clueless.
I feel your pain. I've been there. In the blink of an eye, I could be back there. Am I concerned about the 'job market', with McD's paying minimums? Hell no. If I were to fold up my business today, I can promise you that I would be employed by the end of the week, probably part-time and probably at $10-11 / hr at one of the 'evil corporations' and on a track for advancement.
The thing that the 'clueless' don't get, is that if you apply yourself to even the most menial tasks and work your ass off, you will advance in life. I think too many people 'expect' things to be given or handed down, but in the real world you have to prove yourself and then you will have to ask - and ask frequently.
There are two kinds of "lazy" minimum wage worker:
Teenagers who have yet to really understand pride in a job well done, and what that does for you. (something that is getting harder and harder to teach in our "instant" culture.)
And those adults who are uneducated, without skill, and have been working these kinds of jobs since the a fore^ mentioned teenage years.
They often went to schools that were neglected in the district, had NO ONE in their lives that were doing anything of Merit, or if they did, they were made to feel as if that (for a multitude of reasons) that advancement up the ladder would never happen to them.
Mother's like Monique's character in "Precious" are real.
We should not go into the causes of the Victim mentality here.
Back on Topic.
If corporations/big box/multiBILLION dollar profit generating entities want to cry poor when it comes to wages- they should NOT have tax breaks. They should NOT have subsidies.
They should pay MORE taxes than the minimum wage earner. (And I DO NOT want to hear any line about "the poor don't pay taxes" because all those mandatory payroll taxes ate 100 a week out of my 360 dollar paycheck. It was damn real taxes to me.)
What I think is at the root of the issue is that we value a desk job over labor.
Is carpal tunnel a workplace concern? Try a hernias as a Fabricator!
Hope you got benefits!!
Sweat is no longer seen as a virtue in work, and as a result there are manufacturing jobs all over the place that no one wants, or no one is trained for, because most kids went to school to be able to work in the a/c and make more than 10.00 an hour. (and I realize I am getting snarky.)
Non- Redneck Westsider- as someone who might have to return to the job pool, you really should care. 11.00 part time isn't gonna afford you very much- even if you are (?) a single dude.
The biggest issue for a family is the neighborhoods that such rent(?) rates relegates you to, and the issues associated with that.
Quote from: GoldenEst82 on August 08, 2013, 12:20:31 PM
Non- Redneck Westsider- as someone who might have to return to the job pool, you really should care. 11.00 part time isn't gonna afford you very much- even if you are (?) a single dude.
The biggest issue for a family is the neighborhoods that such rent(?) rates relegates you to, and the issues associated with that.
You hit on some good points, but that's exactly why re-entering the 'normal' workforce doesn't bother me, basically because I came up through the ranks and did all the things you stated that most don't.
You are right, you wont stay in the "low wage" category for long.
But- there are other issues, in line with "starting at the bottom" that you should also be concerned with in relation to benefit trends.
That higher wages would be in the hands of workers, would mean shifts in how and what benefits are offered for "X" job. If people can't afford their benefits package, does it really matter how shitty it is? No.
If you can't contribute to your 401k- it doesn't matter how badly it preforms...that is until you CAN.
That is why we should care, even if we are not at the bottom. If the bottom moves up, we all do.
Quote from: theduvalprogressive on August 08, 2013, 08:21:32 AM
You're assuming that everyone who works for a big box retailer is a student. That's a false assumption.
Quote from: Overstreet on August 08, 2013, 09:50:39 AM
sure......but you've assumed that everyone that works at fast food, retail, etc is making minimum. Some rise. Shoot ask most managers and the worker that shows up when scheduled is golden and likely making more than the slackers that don't show up.
Either a student, a retiree, or someone without enough education for a highly skilled job... AKA: ENTRY LEVEL.
Fast Food? Work hard and as Overstreet has stated so well, SHOW UP, onetime, ready for whatever challenges that come along and if you like the environment, climb the ladder.
FAST FOOD COOKSQuick Facts:
2010 Median Pay $20,260 per year
$9.74 per hour - average
Entry-Level Education
Work Experience in a Related Occupation
On-the-job Training
Number of Jobs, 2010 2,050,800
Job Outlook, 2010-20 8% (Slower than average)
Employment Change, 2010-20 161,800
FAST FOOD MANAGEMENT:Average Salary Per Hour Average Salary Per Year
Arby's $23.00 $48,000
Burger King $21.50 $45,000
Chick-fil-A $21.50 $45,000
Chipotle $24.50 $51,000
McDonalds $23.00 $47,000
Popeyes Chicken & Biscuits $22.00 $46,000
Sonic Drive-In $24.50 $51,000
Subway $21.50 $45,000
Taco Bell $20.00 $42,000
Wendy's $21.00 $44,000
- See more at: http://www.job-applications.com/fast-food-jobs/fast-food-general-manager-job/#sthash.Zdk0dEVB.dpuf
I have employees who earn nearly double minimum wage, and still struggle sometimes. The actual minimum wage is so far below the reality of what's required to subsist its not even funny.
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on August 09, 2013, 07:25:55 AM
I have employees who earn nearly double minimum wage, and still struggle sometimes. The actual minimum wage is so far below the reality of what's required to subsist its not even funny.
Not my typical 'against the little guy' rants lately, but ask yourself why your employees are struggling?
Is it truly because you're not paying them enough for the work they're doing or is it possibly them trying to live outside of their means?
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on August 09, 2013, 07:25:55 AM
I have employees who earn nearly double minimum wage, and still struggle sometimes. The actual minimum wage is so far below the reality of what's required to subsist its not even funny.
I know people that make 75k that are struggling, why, you'd have to ask them.
Quote from: stephendare on August 09, 2013, 10:33:06 AM
Quote from: fsquid on August 09, 2013, 09:47:45 AM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on August 09, 2013, 07:25:55 AM
I have employees who earn nearly double minimum wage, and still struggle sometimes. The actual minimum wage is so far below the reality of what's required to subsist its not even funny.
I know people that make 75k that are struggling, why, you'd have to ask them.
Because 75k isnt that much money. You can barely live as a single person on that much without going into debt constantly, much less raise a family.
You're delusional.
That is all. :)
Quote from: stephendare on August 09, 2013, 10:33:06 AM
Quote from: fsquid on August 09, 2013, 09:47:45 AM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on August 09, 2013, 07:25:55 AM
I have employees who earn nearly double minimum wage, and still struggle sometimes. The actual minimum wage is so far below the reality of what's required to subsist its not even funny.
I know people that make 75k that are struggling, why, you'd have to ask them.
Because 75k isnt that much money. You can barely live as a single person on that much without going into debt constantly, much less raise a family.
really? 75k would be around $4800 a month take home (assuming some sort of health insurance being taken out).
Quote from: stephendare on August 09, 2013, 10:47:43 AM
yeah. really.
student loans - $400
car payments - $450
land taxes, mortgage - $1,500
utilities - $400
car insurance - $300
maintenance (varies, so we'll just stick to a tank of gas a week) - $260
tithing - yeah right
security alarm system leases - $30
cable, internet services and other telecom - $200
We're at $3,540/month to cover all of your 'necessary' (loosely) expenditures. Still leaves about $400/wk as discretionary....
So I'll restate:
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on August 09, 2013, 10:40:22 AM
You're delusional.
That is all. :)
Those little gremlins can eat up into your budget ;)... However, at $75k many can manage pretty well. I guess it really depends on where you're coming from and what type of lifestyle are you willing to maintain.
Quote from: stephendare on August 09, 2013, 10:47:43 AM
Quote from: fsquid on August 09, 2013, 10:41:31 AM
Quote from: stephendare on August 09, 2013, 10:33:06 AM
Quote from: fsquid on August 09, 2013, 09:47:45 AM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on August 09, 2013, 07:25:55 AM
I have employees who earn nearly double minimum wage, and still struggle sometimes. The actual minimum wage is so far below the reality of what's required to subsist its not even funny.
I know people that make 75k that are struggling, why, you'd have to ask them.
Because 75k isnt that much money. You can barely live as a single person on that much without going into debt constantly, much less raise a family.
really? 75k would be around $4800 a month take home (assuming some sort of health insurance being taken out).
yeah. really.
student loans, car payments, land taxes, mortgage, utilities, car payments, car insurance, maintenance, tithing, security alarm system leases and service, cable, internet services and other telecom, travel expenses etc. You can do it, but still people end up having to use credit cards from time to time.
travel expenses, alarm system, and cable are not "needs"
Neither are car payments and land taxes. However, some people may have needs that aren't listed, such as medical or financial requirements like child support or alimony. Nevertheless, you can have someone living off $40k just fine and another about to file for bankruptcy despite making six figures.
True, each situation is different. But to even suggest that one can 'barely' live off of $75k/yr is a huge stretch.
How did the minimum wage discussion become about 75k a year?
I have never made more than 11.5k a year- working full time.
75k a year sounds down right lux.
Though, if my business were to flourish tomorrow and I made ^ that kind of money, I would still drive my 20 year old car, maybe upgrade to full coverage insurance.
I could afford health ins. (something I have not had since I was 21)
I could afford to save- for retirement, college for my boys, to go on a vaycay.
(Oh, lord- I needz a vaycay.)
There are very big differences between people who come from solidly middle/upper-middle class families, and those who grew up at or below the poverty line; when it comes to what is considered "living well" or being comfortable.
Which is really the goal, isn't it?
Quote from: GoldenEst82 on August 09, 2013, 11:55:27 AM
There are very big differences between people who come from solidly middle/upper-middle class families, and those who grew up at or below the poverty line; when it comes to what is considered "living well" or being comfortable.
Yes. I believe this shapes all of our perspectives in the discussion like this. I know I thought I was living large when I landed my first salaried job for $31,800. That was a far cry from the $4.50/hr I was making at Winn-Dixie at the age of 17. Lived just fine off of it too. I rented a 2bd/1ba duplex a mile away from the job for $500/month and went to mom's house for every Sunday dinner. With no college debt or credit card bills heading into that job, I was able to stack enough cash to buy a house a year later.
Quote from: stephendare on August 09, 2013, 12:59:10 PM
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on August 09, 2013, 10:54:48 AM
Quote from: stephendare on August 09, 2013, 10:47:43 AM
yeah. really.
student loans - $400
car payments - $450
land taxes, mortgage - $1,500
utilities - $400
car insurance - $300
maintenance (varies, so we'll just stick to a tank of gas a week) - $260
tithing - yeah right
security alarm system leases - $30
cable, internet services and other telecom - $200
We're at $3,540/month to cover all of your 'necessary' (loosely) expenditures. Still leaves about $400/wk as discretionary....
So I'll restate:
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on August 09, 2013, 10:40:22 AM
You're delusional.
That is all. :)
So, do you eat? Do you wash yourself? Do you get to buy a book, go to a movie, go on a date?
Wear clothes?
and notice that if you pay tithes, that 400 a week disappears completely.
So the real problem here is that most people are delusional about how much money they actually need to 'survive' vs 'prosper'.
Now where in the above is there any room for saving for retirement? Or do you just work for your entire life?
Sorry, but you are delusional and planning on your creditors and family absorbing your debts at your death if you think that 35k a year cuts it anymore.
So why don't I put this into more personal terms....
student loans - $0
car payments - $0
land taxes, mortgage - $789
utilities - $220
car insurance - $158
maintenance (varies, so we'll just stick to a tank of gas a week) - $350ish
tithing - yeah right (still)
security alarm system leases - $0
cable, internet services and other telecom - $140
Credit Card - Paid off monthly - $250ish
hell, just for arguments' sake:
Bold Bean - $100 (conservative estimate :), but it's not all for me)
I'm at $2k/month in typical expenditures before eating, and I have ZERO issue living within my means and enjoying myself. Does it mean that I can hop on a plane and fly out to Italy for a week? Sure, but definitely not on a whim.
But that's OK. I enjoy life, and really, isn't that all anyone's looking for?
Quote from: stephendare on August 09, 2013, 01:20:17 PM
anyone can be uneducated and bored out of their tits, nrw. They can also live off their family when they are old and broke, and die gracelessly without a tooth in their heads because they lack dental or health care.
Its our natural state after all.
Minimum wage? who needs minimum wage when you can die of old age at forty foraging for your food in the forest?
That is, if influenza doesnt take you out early.
But if you are living the modern life, you are either spending money or you are borrowing it.
I suppose.
Anyone can also enjoy life without the requirement of someone else to entertain them.
Again, in discussions such as these, there's definitely no 'one-size-fits-all' approach. Your needs are completely different than mine as are everyone else reading this.
But to say that you can't enjoy yourself at $75k is, I feel, absolutely absurd.
Quote from: stephendare on August 09, 2013, 10:33:06 AM
Quote from: fsquid on August 09, 2013, 09:47:45 AM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on August 09, 2013, 07:25:55 AM
I have employees who earn nearly double minimum wage, and still struggle sometimes. The actual minimum wage is so far below the reality of what's required to subsist its not even funny.
I know people that make 75k that are struggling, why, you'd have to ask them.
Because 75k isnt that much money. You can barely live as a single person on that much without going into debt constantly, much less raise a family.
I know plenty of people with kids that get by on less than that and they do not use credit cards. They have learned to live within their means.
Quote from: stephendare on August 09, 2013, 06:34:24 PM
Quote from: carpnter on August 09, 2013, 01:50:00 PM
Quote from: stephendare on August 09, 2013, 10:33:06 AM
Quote from: fsquid on August 09, 2013, 09:47:45 AM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on August 09, 2013, 07:25:55 AM
I have employees who earn nearly double minimum wage, and still struggle sometimes. The actual minimum wage is so far below the reality of what's required to subsist its not even funny.
I know people that make 75k that are struggling, why, you'd have to ask them.
Because 75k isnt that much money. You can barely live as a single person on that much without going into debt constantly, much less raise a family.
I know plenty of people with kids that get by on less than that and they do not use credit cards. They have learned to live within their means.
And you know this because you are their accountant?
I can vouch for that, my current caseload is 117 families that have at least two kids, make no more than 30k combined total, and you know what ... They're happy for the most part. They can put food on their table, they may not go to a movie but they love going to parks or the beach, and they are happier than most of my coworkers are. I'm shocked at the disconnect here. Very eye opening. I guess if you don't have to live on tight budgets or work directly with those that do that you don't think it is possible. Thank you all for making me realize just how blessed I am to have the experience that they have taught me.
Quote from: stephendare on August 09, 2013, 07:52:20 PM
happy is one thing. and that has nothing to do with money.
So very true, and then you go on to say why ppl confuse the two ...
Its not really that much money when you are trying to live without debt and still have the kind of lifestyle required by today's world.
Keeping up with Joneses' never makes you happy. I find people more apt to waste their money on useless junk when they make six figures. So I think there is a big deficit in financial education that should've been taught at home, by your parents, with your allowance or birthday money or paper run money (just my opinion). Of course, wars and recessions and hard times kind of force reality on all, so maybe the frivolousness of those during the late 90's early 2000's (myself included) may actually be dead and a new approach to thinking about fiscal responsibility is setting in.
And unfortunately the reality of the situation is that if you are making less than poverty line+50%, your chances of seeing 65 are very slim. If you do though, the government on both state and national level do have programs that would support you. Not much, but the life they've been accustomed to.
As for education, I actually like some of Florida's scholarship programs as long as you stay in state. Though many have been cut dramatically over the last few years it is more than many other states offer.
Can it be better? Of course, but the paradox is that it can always be better. The object is not to allow it to get any worse.
If necessary, yes I could function and survive on minimum wage. As a matter of fact for my sociology class one of our assignments was to determine how little we could live off of. The point of the lesson was to teach us that if taught, people could survive without any government assistance. It was determined that it would be possible to live in small comfort off of $100/wk if housing and food were provided. Bump it to $225 and make them pay for housing costs. However, I would have to dramatically change my life style. And I wouldn't stay there for long. Keep in mind this topic of conversation started by someone saying it is impossible to live off minimum wage and should be rewarded for longevity not actual productivity, which I think has been proven inaccurate by others.
As for happiness, it depends on the individual. It cannot be truly quantified because I get happiness from helping others and seeing the product of my work. Someone else may get happy by sitting home and counting the money they're shoving in their mattress. Another may be happy just to see a sunrise. However, if one was worried about your future, about retirement, about paying bills long after you produce labor of some sort to pay for all those, and I mean truly worried, not the complaining rigamarole of someone's personality, than they would do what they could to change that. They would learn something or talk to someone or move to something that they can make more money in.
As for my personal doctrine, I had to fight for everything I earned in life and loved every minute of it and gladly continue to do so. And when I come home on weekends and work with these families, I whole heartedly adopt the "teach a man to fish" doctrine. Whenever I approach any conversation of government subsidy, I feel it should be a helping hand. I feel that once you have received aid for a period of 6 months, you should not receive it for 24 months. Slowly Florida is coming to this, but it is out of financial necessity, not the knowledge of the actual reality.
Disability, well most whom claim it still need another source of income. The way the system is currently set up in Florida a perfectly healthy, workforce capable single mother (25 y/o) of two (5,7 y/o) will make the equivalent of a full time job paying $7.85/hr from the State. A man whom was working under the table and gets injured on the job with no coverage will recieve the equivalent of a full time job at $4.78/hr. So why should the young woman try to educate herself or get a good (or any) job? After all if she is happy watching TV and talking with neighbors all day, that is her right I suppose. Until she demands that she needs more to sustain quality of life (because, you know, shes been collecting for years now she deserves a raise) then it becomes every taxpayers issue.
Quote from: stephendare on August 09, 2013, 09:22:52 PM
Quotepossible to live in small comfort off of $100/wk if housing and food were provided. Bump it to $225 and make them pay for housing
Food and 75 dollars a week in shelter?
No it was assumed that federal benefits and soup kitchens would provide nutrition. Adding the $125 a week was purely to pay for housing costs on their own.
What if they get sick? Or arrested? Or robbed? Or a car runs over their groceries?
Or what if they get hit by the ice cream truck? Those same whatifs apply to everyone. I have a close friend who makes around $125k a year, no insurance and lives paycheck to paycheck. So arguably minimum wage doesn't really have exclusivity over this hypothesis. That is an argument for the education of financial responsibility, not just those paid minimum wage.
Can they live off that little in the real world or was that a thought experiment in a college class?
No we did it in the real world. For 90 calendar days we could only use the funds they provided and food they supplied. we we had to arrange housing, transportation to and from campus (our "job") and had to document not only what we spent money on but also what we spent time on while the other half monitored us to keep everyone honest. About 75 started the project, only 8 of us made it to completion. Which I think goes to show that we are easily caught up in the trappings of life that we think we need
In any case, that is still subsidized at subsistence. And you can live off of almost nothing. Can you feed your children and comply with the laws requiring their care and education on it?
Yes, you can. Provided you only have two or less children. If you have three or more, then you will require higher pay, govt subsidy, second income in form of another job or another person contributing.
Can they get a college education?
Yes, and this is what most do not realize. In the state of Florida alone, approximately 20,000 under 21 people are provided a college education at no cost to them or taxpayers. Many private endowments and philanthropic societies exist just with that explicit purpose. However, you need to have kept good grades all through high school, and that is not so easy if you're trying to help mom put food on the table. So is it possible, yes. Is it realistic, not in my opinion. On paper, yes it is doable but it won't be easy. Of course, the big payback, and the reason there is so much help to go to college is that once you have a degree you won't be making minimum wage for very long, if at all. Which then breaks that cycle of living off subsistence from taxpayers.
And by disability, im not talking about the government program, I mean at some point you are going to get too old to work. And you may get too sick to work. Eventually, if you live long enough, you will be physically unable to make any more money.
In that scenario, if you were working you (so far) have social security you paid into, if you worked 35 years at minimum wage then retired, you would actually get a pay increase. Of course I have pointed out that is negated by the probability that your medical bills will increase as well as others because instead of being at work you are now home using utilities all day.
Can you provide for those things on minimum wage?
twice minimum wage?
Three times?
Or will you be forced to borrow the money and saddle someone else with the financial obligation?
It is possible to survive on minimum wage and support 1-2 children or 1 adult. However, this does not happen because no politician would ever cut off their knees like that. I've seen numerous studies that show the majority I people whom vote in elections make less than $40k individually a year, so even if they only come in for coffee and donuts, they are giving that politician his job. Plus it easy to maneuver money to special projects from a fund for the poor than one say to rebuild an interstate or bridge.
Hypotheticals aside, yes it is not only possible it is very doable. Now I can understand ones inability to understand because we can only evaluate life through our own experiences, so what some consider needs others consider extravagant luxuries. Where you draw the line only you can say, and it can only apply to you based in your beliefs and what life has taught you.
Quote from: stephendare on August 09, 2013, 08:44:17 PM
Jaybird. Im trying to figure out if you think that you by yourself--meaning with the aid of no one else can function in todays society for minumum wage and no government programs?
Yes you can, as I stated above. But the reason most do not, is why should they? The government happily provides them funding and has poor oversight.
Also what would you speculate are the odds for long term happiness in not providing for funding for old age and disability? Can you be happy and totally dependent on everyone else around you?
Once again, how do classify happiness? If someone is not happy because they depend on others than they will change that themselves, thus removing that group from the conversation. Those that don't care are perfectly happy living off of others because the others permit it.
Quote from: Apache on August 09, 2013, 12:07:11 PM
What types of businesses do you and your husband own?
He has a custom automotive shop- its part time/hobbyist right now, because he has a full time job as a fabricator. Once his shop is able to support his half of the bills- he will leave his full time job.
I have an online only thrift store- but I only started it two months ago, and it really hasn't gotten off the ground. :-\
I have been a SAHM since losing my (awesome) job in 2009. My youngest son (2010) was born with Downs Syndrome, and I have only been able to afford to be home with him because of his SSI. I started my business to be able to get off of assistance when he goes to Pre-K. (in Dec, when he turns 3)
I should also explain that my husband and I are not actually married, but we are in a very long term committed partnership, and quite honestly "boyfriend" does not have the appropriate gravitas to describe it.
Quote from: GoldenEst82 on August 10, 2013, 12:06:28 PM
Quote from: Apache on August 09, 2013, 12:07:11 PM
What types of businesses do you and your husband own?
He has a custom automotive shop- its part time/hobbyist right now, because he has a full time job as a fabricator. Once his shop is able to support his half of the bills- he will leave his full time job.
I have an online only thrift store- but I only started it two months ago, and it really hasn't gotten off the ground. :-\
I have been a SAHM since losing my (awesome) job in 2009. My youngest son (2010) was born with Downs Syndrome, and I have only been able to afford to be home with him because of his SSI. I started my business to be able to get off of assistance when he goes to Pre-K. (in Dec, when he turns 3)
I should also explain that my husband and I are not actually married, but we are in a very long term committed partnership, and quite honestly "boyfriend" does not have the appropriate gravitas to describe it.
Instead of "boyfriend" this may be better for you "Common law husband."
Per the State Legislature Website (http://"http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0700-0799/0741/Sections/0741.211.html")
"741.211 Common-law marriages void.—No common-law marriage entered into after January 1, 1968, shall be valid."
It is just easier and warrants less explanation, than say, Domestic Partner; which is really the most accurate verb for the situation.
Quote from: GoldenEst82 on August 10, 2013, 02:50:50 PM
Per the State Legislature Website (http://"http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0700-0799/0741/Sections/0741.211.html")
"741.211 Common-law marriages void.—No common-law marriage entered into after January 1, 1968, shall be valid."
It is just easier and warrants less explanation, than say, Domestic Partner; which is really the most accurate verb for the situation.
Amen! ;)
Today is scheduled for more protests around the country. This was the scene this morning around 6:45am on my way into work at midtown McDonald's.
(http://i.imgur.com/Xbx56Px.jpg)
Minimum Wage Was Once Enough To Keep a Family of 3 Out of Poverty
http://www.theatlanticcities.com/jobs-and-economy/2013/12/minimum-wage-was-once-enough-keep-family-3-out-poverty/7773/
maybe they should be protesting the current admin's policies which continue to widen the income gap and destroy the middle class?
Quote from: fsquid on December 05, 2013, 12:02:36 PM
maybe they should be protesting the current admin's policies which continue to widen the income gap and destroy the middle class?
It didn't start with him, nor will it end with him. This is a systematic failure.
Quote from: stephendare on December 05, 2013, 12:21:13 PM
Quote from: fsquid on December 05, 2013, 12:02:36 PM
maybe they should be protesting the current admin's policies which continue to widen the income gap and destroy the middle class?
Are you sure it isnt also causing heightened volcanic activity and sunspots?
no clue, I don't keep up with science.
Hope they enjoy ordering McyDs from a kiosk in a few years
It is already happening...
http://www.takepart.com/article/2013/12/04/tablets-waiters-invade-two-big-chains
I went to a bar in DC last year that had beer taps built into the tables. Customers could pour their own refills, while a flowmeter measured how much beer was poured throughout the evening. My first thought was "Wow, this could be dangerous after the first couple of rounds." But now that I think about it, I suppose it also has the side effect of increasing sales while keeping labor costs down.
http://dcredline.com/content/table-taps (http://dcredline.com/content/table-taps)