Learning from Greenville, SC
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-4139-p1070152.JPG)
According to Ron Barton, Executive Director of the JEDC, Jacksonville's focus for downtown revitalization has shifted to horizontal development. Greenville, SC is an example of a community that has been successful using horizontal public improvements to stimulate vertical private development.
Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/744
This makes me want to move more to Greenville than stay here. our short-sighted government would never dream of a long term plan or sticking to one if they made it. Around here it's all about expanding the population as fast as possible and only bringing something up once it has become a critical situation.
I'm so glad you posted this. My husband and I were actually looking at Greenville a couple of months ago when he was looking at a job out there and I fell in love.
What they've done with their downtown in amazing, and even more amazing is how the long-time residents not only welcomed the change, but seem to have fully embraced it and utilize what has been built. If that's not enough for you, then how about the fact that world-famous cyclist George Hincapie lives in Greenville ;D The area is filled with cyclists, various group rides and many cycling events.
If you really want to see Greenville from a residents perspective, check out this guy's blog, http://www.greenvilledailyphoto.com/ (http://www.greenvilledailyphoto.com/). He is a resident that lives and works in downtown Greenville and he takes pictures to and from work each day and shares them on his blog. They really give you insight to what it's like to be there at any given day.
try not to start a story with a quote from ron barton: hes the cancer thats eating away jacksonville, why is he still here? Since hes headed the jedc things get worse. and then he tells all how to do it right. yesterday 3 100yr + buildings were destroyed, whats his say on that? vertical growth starts at the bottom?
I particularly like the free on-street parking. It's funny - everyone is opposed to it here, yet it works in Greenville, and it workes here in Five Points, San Marco, Avondale, and Fernandina.
While I think we can learn from Greenville (particularly about free on street parking downtown - what do we have to lose?) but let's not get carried away. Greenville is a significantly smaller town than Jax and is really more like a large Asheville. I cant imagine living there personally. I need all of the amenities that flow from being in an MSA of 1+ million.
Also, it looks like the article includes surrounding neighborhoods in Greenville's "downtown". If you include Riverside, San Marco and Springfield in Jacksonville's downtown area, we start to look a lot better too. So, a lot of this is about how you define the downtowns of the respective cities.
exactly riverside, its most important that its recognized that greenville is NOT a metropolitian area, and Jacksonville IS! the free on site parking has been "revealed" earlier. maybe the paid parking is a procedure for the city to discourage residential growth(presence) and control downtown for the few, hence the negative perception of "downtown jacksonville" by 99% of its citizens. and this carries on to commerical, business presence in downtown. citizens only envision downtown as parking lots $$$ per hour paid when they MUST go downtown. this is the essence of the "downtown" platform of jedc, mr barton et al!!!
Quote from: RiversideGator on March 26, 2008, 11:35:06 AM
While I think we can learn from Greenville (particularly about free on street parking downtown - what do we have to lose?) but let's not get carried away. Greenville is a significantly smaller town than Jax and is really more like a large Asheville. I cant imagine living there personally. I need all of the amenities that flow from being in an MSA of 1+ million.
Also, it looks like the article includes surrounding neighborhoods in Greenville's "downtown". If you include Riverside, San Marco and Springfield in Jacksonville's downtown area, we start to look a lot better too. So, a lot of this is about how you define the downtowns of the respective cities.
When I have a little more time, I will reply in more detail, as I live in Greenville currently and also know the history of Jacksonville's downtown past and present very well.
But for now, let me say that the quoted post is quite misleading. All of the photos were taken in the 1.75 sq. mile CBD. West End is no farther from the core of DT Greenville than the Cathedral district is from the core of DT Jax.
The 1+million metro is misleading as well. Greenville is part of what used to be the Greenville-Spartanburg-Anderson Metro area. The Census bureau now divides these into three MSAs. Greenville is in the center of the three and they have a combined population of 1.2 million, nearly identical to Jax.
In terms of 'amenities', we all know Jax has not reached the Nordstrom/Neiman Marcus threshold yet, nor has Greenville. There are some smaller stores that Jax has that Greeenville doesn't such as Apple, and Ruth's Chris, but both are in the works currently.
In terms of metro size, income, etc. they are really quite similiar. Given the huge advantage Jax has in having 3/4 of the metro population under one consolidated government, Jacksonville should be running circles around Greenville and many similiar sized metro areas. In reality the opposite is true.
I'll put together a couple of scaled Google Earth images to show the relation in the size of each community's downtown. I believe the combined land area in every district discussed in this article could fit within our Downtown's Northbank boundaries.
I also agree with Vicupstate that with the right leadership and vision in place, Jacksonville should be running circles around this smaller city. Instead, this place has found a way to do a lot more with less resources. I don't think we do ourselves any good making excuses of why we prefer to live in Jax over Greenville. We're better off taking a look at the things they've been successful in implementing (maintaining a long term master plan, free on-street parking to encourage retail, image branding, clear wayfaring signage, etc.) and seeing if similar techniques are worth exploring locally.
i went to furman from 2000 to 2005, and lived in downtown greenville for the last two years of that. i ADORED greenville, despite the backwater crowd that seemed to live outside of the downtown area. basically, if you lived in downtown, it was like being in any other big city in the US.
Full disclosure: I have never been the Greenville and have just driven around it on the way to the NC mountains. But, if you aggregate a bunch of small towns and they add up to a million people, this still doesnt make it a big city. It is just a collection of small towns. Also, I would like to see the maps of their downtown superimposed on ours. Maybe the scale was just confusing to me. Having said all that, Greenville's downtown does appear nice and I dont want to take anything away from that. I just dont think that the metro areas are comparable. I do obviously wish we had better leadership and downtown development here too, as I have stated before. Anyway, I am willing to take lessons from anyone and the free downtown on street parking needs to be tried here ASAP.
The area explored on foot in Greenville would be equal to walking from LaVilla to the Cathedral District on foot.
Greenville
area includes Downtown core, the West End District and Falls Park, which sits between the two. Main Street is highlighted with a yellow line.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v84/lakelander/greenville-9275.jpg)
Jacksonville
If the Greenville area, shown above were converted into a rectangle, it would probably fit between the river, Catherine Street, Union Street and Davis Street, meaning the stadium district and Prime Osborn would fall outside of that boundary.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v84/lakelander/jacksonville-9275.jpg)
Forget about Indianapolis or Louisville. If we can get build a vibrant downtown area rivaling the size of Greenville's most of the complaints of inactivity today would go away.
Whenever comparisons are made between cities and/or Metro areas, context is important. Jacksonville's city population is a large multiple of Miami's, but the Miami Metro area is a multiple of Jax's Metro population. Is Metro Miami a collection of small towns? The average city there has a population of probably 10,000.
A retailer or industrial plant scout is not going to look at city limits, county boundaries or misleading population figures, they look at the coherent market or the labor pool they will draw from.
The Jacksonville and GSA metro areas both consists of 5 counties, with a 1.2 mm population, the biggest difference is the population is significantly more concentrated in Jax than GSA. That is a significant difference, but no two metro's are going to be exact matches for each other.
I think the comparisons worth discussing have nothing to do with the size and context of a specific city. To me, the comparisons we should be looking at are:
A. creation of new pocket park vs. improving existing parks
Is it beneficial to use public funds to enhance existing park spaces such as Confederate/Klutho Park, Hemming or in Greenville's case Falls Park, verse using that money to build new pocket parks?
B. What are the pros & cons of implementing free on-street parking?
We know that the current situation is not ideal. On the other hand Greenville has been successful. How do they deal with the issue of office workers potentially taking up free spaces?
C. Complying with a downtown master plan
We continue to have substandard designed buildings approved in the CBD that don't enhance walkability, such as the abandoned Sax Seafood restaurant. Greenville's new projects abut the street and embrace the pedestrian. What are they doing that we aren't and does it negatively affect growth in downtown if the DDRB demands for quality design?
D. Art Incubators
Greenville's Art Crossing has become a popular attraction on their riverwalk. Could we develop a similar project with vacant city owned buildings like the Snyder Memorial?
To me these are the comparisons that need to be made and evaluated. With these it doesn't matter what the each metropolitan area offers, who they compete with for jobs or if the selected city has 100,000 or 1 million residents.
regarding B, if i recall correctly, parking was limited to two hours during weekday business hours. at 5 it became free. also, on the weekends it was free.
On street Parking is always free, but it is time limited during business hours on week days. Evening and Weekend parking is free in certain garages as well.
You will be ticketed if you park more than the alloted time for your on-street space, but you don't have to feed a meter.
Ironically, finding a space is easy during business hours, it is after hours when finding a space is more difficult.
Quote from: vicupstate on March 26, 2008, 08:56:08 PM
On street Parking is always free, but it is time limited during business hours on week days. Evening and Weekend parking is free in certain garages as well.
You will be ticketed if you park more than the alloted time for your on-street space, but you don't have to feed a meter.
Ironically, finding a space is easy during business hours, it is after hours when finding a space is more difficult.
The same thing is done in Fernandina. During the summer months, and spring events, especially huge events like the Concourse D'elegance, The Baush and Lomb Tennis Tournament, the parking situation doesn't change downtown yet there is a lot more traffic and fewer parking spaces, but they are all still free. They have 'enforcers' that will walk around and chalk your tire, come back in 2 hours and if you're still there, then they'll give you a ticket or have you towed.
This sounds like a viable plan. What we have in place does not work effectively. Maybe it worth pursuing as a demonstration project on a street like Laura or Adams?
Greenville has a Great mayor,Knox White, who has a great vision to take Greenville to the next level .He is creating a nice little town from the Mill town that is was once. We moved to Greenville from Jupiter 3 years ago,and the infrastructure is great. The People unfortunately are still stuck in a mill town attitude, highly under educated, Culturally backwards and unwilling to grasp change. Most shopping is at a sub-standard level, and the Dining options, while large in numbers are severely lacking in culinary expertise. Which is to be expected in a town where traditionally mill workers ate hot dogs, mayonnaise based spread sandwiches, and dined out at "meat and Threes".Also Greenville is rather blighted by the Bible belt thumping of Bob Jones,which unfortunately,keeps the population form blooming to it's full potential. When The same steps that Greenville has taken are initiated in a major metropolitan population such as Jacksonville, the results will be Breathtaking.
So, are you considering leaving, pbbboy?
Quote from: RiversideGator on April 01, 2008, 06:19:55 PM
So, are you considering leaving, pbbboy?
Most Definantly! We will be Back to a city in a couple of months. Greenville will be a Great town in a few years (10-20) but life is too short to wait!!!!
Jacksonville is for sure a larger city but I just wanted to point out that Greenville's city pop. is so small becaose the city limits are really small due to archaic SC laws. From downtown you can actually walk to the city limits in some places in about 10 mins. Doesn't Jacksonville have the largest city limits in the country? If the same land areas were compared, the populations would be a lot close. Another thing Greenville has going for it, is just about every night there is a scheduled event downtown from April to October, such as Downtown Alive, Main St. Jazz, Rythem on the River, Free outdoor movies etc. Someone mentioned amenities, I think Greenville has most but not as many as Jacksonville. We do have a nice Performing Arts Center and Coliseum downtown. I've seen a lot of great concerts in Greenville from country to the Eagles, Elton John, Billy Joel, Pearl Jam, Tony Bennett, Rod Stewart, Aretha Franklin, Wayne Newton etc etc. Y'all come on up for a visit!!
Its nice to get some input from Greenville residents on their community. I'm very impressed with the city's efforts on redeveloping their downtown and their agressiveness in recruiting high paying jobs in that area.
QuoteDoesn't Jacksonville have the largest city limits in the country? If the same land areas were compared, the populations would be a lot close.
Greenville's city limits cover 26 square miles, while Jacksonville's old limits covered 31 square miles (including some large areas of the St. Johns River). In 1950, Jacksonville's old limits had 204,000 residents. There has been significant population loss in the old limits since then. Today, that number would be closer to 110,000, yet still significantly larger than Greenville's current 56,000.
Quote from: Former PBBoy on April 01, 2008, 07:25:56 PM
Quote from: RiversideGator on April 01, 2008, 06:19:55 PM
So, are you considering leaving, pbbboy?
Most Definantly! We will be Back to a city in a couple of months. Greenville will be a Great town in a few years (10-20) but life is too short to wait!!!!
Where to?
Quote from: RiversideGator on April 02, 2008, 12:31:19 AM
Quote from: Former PBBoy on April 01, 2008, 07:25:56 PM
Quote from: RiversideGator on April 01, 2008, 06:19:55 PM
So, are you considering leaving, pbbboy?
Most Definantly! We will be Back to a city in a couple of months. Greenville will be a Great town in a few years (10-20) but life is too short to wait!!!!
Where to?
We considered Santa Barbara, going Back to DC, Returning to Greenwich,But finally have found a great fit for us in Charleston SC. We really do like being near the water,and in a cosmopolitian city so there are not really that many options.
Quote from: thelakelander on April 01, 2008, 09:58:09 PM
Its nice to get some input from Greenville residents on their community. I'm very impressed with the city's efforts on redeveloping their downtown and their agressiveness in recruiting high paying jobs in that area.
QuoteDoesn't Jacksonville have the largest city limits in the country? If the same land areas were compared, the populations would be a lot close.
Greenville's city limits cover 26 square miles, while Jacksonville's old limits covered 31 square miles (including some large areas of the St. Johns River). In 1950, Jacksonville's old limits had 204,000 residents. There has been significant population loss in the old limits since then. Today, that number would be closer to 110,000, yet still significantly larger than Greenville's current 56,000.
Hi folks! First and foremost thanks for the positive post on our area. I just want to look at these numbers. Jacksonville is larger I'm sure, but Greenville, SC is nothing to sneeze at when you look at the area in certain ways. Greenville's urban area is I believe 302,194. Which most urban enthuisiast would say is a better indicator of the size of a city or town. Upstate, SC works as a whole and as mentioned the original GSA metro has 1.2 million plus. City limit numbers can throw you off. I remember seeing somewhere that Jacksonville city limit population was 700,000+! Atlanta's city population is 400,000+, can't remember exact numbers. If you went by that Jacksonville is larger than Atlanta, but when you look at metro areas it shows something different. Atlanta has 5 million+ in its metro versus Jacksonville's metro. This is not intented to bring Atlanta in the thread, but to give an example of how numbers can be confusing.
Welcome to the site motonenterprises. I remember you from urban planet. I also agree that urban area statistics gives a more realistic indicator of a city's true size, than metropolitan area and city limit numbers.
2000 US Census urban area numbers (Southern urban areas over 300,000):
urban area population - (urban area population density) - urban area
4,919,036 (4,407) - Miami
4,145,659 (2,946) - Dallas
3,933,920 (3,401) - Washington
3,822,509 (2,951) - Houston
3,499,840 (1,783) - Atlanta
2,062,339 (2,571) - Tampa
1,394,439 (2,647) - Virginia Beach
1,157,431 (2,554) - Orlando
1,009,283 (5,102) - New Orleans
972,091 (2,431) - Memphis
901,920 (2,835) - Austin
882,295 (2,149) - Jacksonville
863,582 (2,207) - Louisville
818,836 (1,814) - Richmond
758,927 (1,745) - Charlotte
749,935 (1,741) - Nashville
663,615 (1,693) - Birmingham
559,229 (2,068) - Sarasota
541,527 (1,694) - Raleigh
423,410 (1,833) - Charleston, SC
420,537 (1,564) - Columbia
419,830 (1,237) - Knoxville
393,289 (1,790) - Palm Bay/Melbourne
360,331 (1,753) - Little Rock
343,331 (1,,184) - Chattanooga
335,630 (1,448) - Augusta
329,757 (1,719) - Cape Coral/Fort Myers
323,783 (1,476) - Pensacola
317,605 (1,507) - Mobile
302,194 (1,334) - Greenville
Blue indicates cities with various forms of rail mass transit already operating
Green indicates cities with various forms of rail already under construction or with serious plans in place
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Largest_urban_areas_of_the_United_States
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However, size does not mean anything.
1,583,138 (3,340) - Portland
208,886 (2,040) - Savannah
Portland is smaller than cities like Houston, Atlanta and Tampa, yet their planning practices over the years have created a vibrant urban livable atmosphere that the others now dream of. Savannah is smaller than Jacksonville and Greenville, yet their priority of promoting and preserving their historic building fabric brings in a ton of tourism dollars into that city and gives it an atmosphere we wished we had locally in our urban core.
So to sum it up, just because Greenville is smaller in size, does not mean that the revitalization techniques implemented there could not do wonders for a city of size of Jacksonville.
Parking is a frequent topic of discussion on this forum, so I thought I would post this article on Greenville's situation.
QuoteCity puts a friendly face on parking
By Paul Alongi
STAFF WRITER
Angela Limbaugh had a stack of maps in her pocket as she cruised downtown Greenville's streets in a two-seat, electric car with a parking ticket machine on the dash.
She's among the city's new breed of parking enforcement specialists -- and they don't just write tickets any more.
Specialists hit the streets prepared to give directions, explain the bronze mice game and answer other questions visitors might have.
"The vehicle is a big attraction," parking enforcement supervisor Charles Cronin said, while standing next to the egg-shaped car.
Anyone who has found an orange ticket flapping under a windshield wiper knows how frustrating it can be to park for free downtown.
But the city has tried to ease the situation by turning its enforcers into "ambassadors," offering rates that undercut national averages and handing out warnings at peak times.
Kim Cosby, the city's director of transportation, said that while free parking decks sometimes fill up on the weekends, drivers should be able to find a spot nearby for a few dollars.
"If you go a half of a block over or around the corner, there's plenty of available parking in the next closest deck," she said.
Greenville had some of the nation's lowest parking rates in a recent survey of 51 cities, according Colliers International. No city beat Greenville's median daily parking rate, $6, although two cities tied -- Memphis, Tenn. and West Palm Beach, Fla.
Greenville's median hourly rate of $1.50 came in far below the national average, $5.10.
Free, on-street parking near Main Street can fill up quickly, especially during downtown events.
Drivers who get tickets have 14 days to appeal in writing and are expected to enclose payment for the appeal to be processed, according to the city's policy.
The city will reply with a "notice of disposition" and, if a refund is due, payment will be sent in 30 days, according to the policy.
Cody Bellows, a college student, said she prefers to park for free on the street, but it's not always possible.
"Sometimes I'll just drive around forever," she said. "I'll give up and park in the garage."
On a recent Thursday morning, Bellows said she found a free, on-street spot for her Toyota 4Runner.
Then she found a spot for herself -- in a chair outside Port City Java.
Paul Alongi can be reached at 298-4746.
I visited Greenville yesterday...what a great little city (especially for South Carolina)...it is obvious through the architecture and publi spaces that the community cares deeply about design.
That said, I also found Greenville sprawling out quite a bit....about 15+ miles to the south of the central city....and guess what else....they have a new partial-beltway (I-185) that is a toll road!
Yep. Greenville is really a small city that has been taken over by recent development. The BMW plant they landed back in 1992 really put things into high gear for them. However, despite the sprawl in the region, they've been able to create a vibrant downtown. This should go a long way to killing the excuses for inactivity that Jax has grown used to accepting. You should check out some of Vicupstate's comments on that privately financed toll road. Its about to fall into default. That's a lesson that the First Coast should keep in mind.
I have lived in Greenville for 21 years, and my brother attended law school at UF, so I am very familiar with jacksonville. Greenville is a much better city for pedestrians, the core of business and entertainment is all within a 3 mile radius. Also the Falls Park mentioned in the article is connected to Northern Greenville and the massive Cleveland Park by a 27 mile long paved path. As for the free parking that has been talked about on this post, the main street free parking is limited to two hours as to keep business people away. It does not mention that the parking garages in Greenville are free on weekends as well. The garages do cost 50 cents an hour during the week. The downtown crowd and the residents of the surrounding areas of downtown are highly educated, not the idiots mentioned in a previous post. Like Jacksonville is to Gator sports, Greenville is to Clemson. Jacksonville does have the Atlantic Ocean, an NFL team, and the Landing. I believe Jacksonville could benefit from downsizing its city limits so tax dollars could flow into downtown beautification, and not into housing projects.
Well unfortunately "downsizing" the city limits is not in our power. The consolidation took place in 1968 and Im sure it be heck trying to reverse that. Consilidation is the reason Jacksonville's situation is much different than other cities. in our situation, consolidation Zapped our downtown to almost nothing. That and the extreme racial tension that caused everyone to spread out in attempt to get away from each other. And the city government at the time did nothing to stop or control. And city government there after ignored the problem. People in Jacksonville are so used to not going downtown, it doesnt bother them. It bothers outsiders more than it bothers the citizens of Jacksonville. I personally would like to see downtown grow and develop, but most citizens are perched in their suburbian world and could care less.
That's why I always say not to compare Jax to any other city, but we have our own set of unique issues that need to be addressed. and honestly until we get a mayor in office who actually cares, not much of anything will change about downtown.
I don't think consolidation is the issue at all, and never has been, IMO.
Indianapolis is consolidated and has a great DT. Same for Nashville. Denver too, albeit the geographic size is small. Louisville hasn't been consolidated very long, but it does have a great DT.
Houston is HUGE and sprawled out like crazy, yet DT Houston is experiencing a renaissance as well.
Charlotte is technically not consolidated but it is large and sprawled-out geographically, yet DT is the core of the city in every respect, and is has made a huge revival too.
The REAL reason DT Jax suffers is it's leadership, or the lack thereof, along with a dearth of understanding as to what makes an urban area successful. It's past time to drop the 'consolidation' excuse.
Quote from: vicupstate on August 04, 2010, 04:57:01 PM
The REAL reason DT Jax suffers is it's leadership, or the lack thereof, along with a dearth of understanding as to what makes an urban area successful. It's past time to drop the 'consolidation' excuse.
vicupstate..........you hit the nail right on the head!! Consolidation has nothing to do with petty,take care of your buddies and a severe lack of ethical leadership! From the head hockey puck on down! Until we get a complete change at City Hall..........there ain't squat gonna happen!
The things I noticed that Greenville did do well (and I didn't park so can't notice that) was the fact that they too had a "spine" in Main St (looked kind of like a Tryon St in Charlotte without 50 floor buildings). They also had a good amount of plaza/greenspace and they have that great park right there. It reminded me of a Decatur in Atlanta, but more attractive and slightly larger.
By the way, something interesting about the general area. In addition to the absurd amount of churches (mostly Baptist or evangelical it seemed) and religious signs/billboards, their Bob Jones University is completely walled and gated. I know that universities are supposed to be a little private to provide some sense of safety for the students, but they are also supposed to encourage and supply a free flow of ideas between a community and the school. GT and Emory both have walls and nice "entrance ways" but both are completely accessible to the public and both flow out into the surrounding area to help shape the community. GSU basically IS downtown Atlanta nowadays and is doing great things and there are no walls or gates except in the Commons (the main dorm building). Just an interesting observation.