I thought that this piece was very interesting. To be honest, I agree with just about everything that the speaker said with the video below (ducking for cover). Remember, she's talking about freaking Philadelphia. While there are exceptions to the rule with mostly overseas places like Dubai, Abu Dhabi etc where land is scarce, for the most part building these supertall office buildings in the US nowadays are like a bygone era, esp with the increase of overseas jobs over recent years. China with it's dozen of 'ghost cities' is the poster boy for overbuilding with no demand; With many of these condos being completely empty and others unfinished exposed to the weather ie Berkman 2. There was an episode on the HBO show 'Vice' about China's ghost cities; Very melancholy. Regarding Jax, I would like to see DT continue to concentrate on filling up these vacant buildings, moreso than erecting a 55 story office tower anytime soon. Here's the vid below.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_12JoDBdac
Skyscrapers are great for driving by. However, as far as street level vibrancy goes, I'd take blocks and blocks of occupied two story mixed-use buildings over a couple of skyscrapers any day.
We've had this discussion before:
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,15094.0.html
Anyone that thinks we need skyscrapers should read this article:
http://assemblepapers.com.au/2013/06/13/cities-for-people-jan-gehl/?goback=.gde_97473_member_249724420
Yes, overrated. Some of my favorite cities and townships are completely without them.
They are fun to build.
Quote from: CityLife on June 25, 2013, 08:48:13 AM
We've had this discussion before:
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,15094.0.html
Anyone that thinks we need skyscrapers should read this article:
http://assemblepapers.com.au/2013/06/13/cities-for-people-jan-gehl/?goback=.gde_97473_member_249724420
My bad.
Well the good news for you then is that I wouldn't worry at all about anyone putting up an office tower, a high rise hotel, or another condo tower anytime soon. Best prospect is a local company needing a mid-rise of 8-15 stories somewhere that's probably not even downtown for themselves to occupy...build to suit tower in the burbs or something boring.
I do think skylines indicate the health and growth of a city at a point in time. Growing and flourishing cities tend to build up while they build out and/or gentrify. You can even tell a city's best decades by the age of the buildings in its skyline(s)...unfortunately for Jax, nothing significant has come about since the 80s when buildings were not built to interact at the street level...nowadays especially on the residential side high rises are being built for density and for human-scale at the street.
Quote from: simms3 on June 25, 2013, 11:03:38 AM
I do think skylines indicate the health and growth of a city at a point in time.
Certainly not in China outside a handful of cities. Hell look at Mobile with it's Chrysler-esque building; Not exactly bustling.
Last time I checked, the tallest building in Jax was built in the nineties; I think it's safe to say that it's significant to Jax's skyline, and yes it's street level is okay.
The number of Supertall (1,000+ ft) buildings being built in Asia and the Middle East is shocking:
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/forumdisplay.php?f=902
(http://www.skyscrapercity.com/forumdisplay.php?f=902)
I can't say I've ever "rated" them.
Quote from: I-10east on June 25, 2013, 11:19:00 AM
Quote from: simms3 on June 25, 2013, 11:03:38 AM
I do think skylines indicate the health and growth of a city at a point in time.
Certainly not in China outside a handful of cities. Hell look at Mobile with it's Chrysler-esque building; Not exactly bustling.
Last time I checked, the tallest building in Jax was built in the nineties; I think it's safe to say that it's significant to Jax's skyline, and yes it's street level is okay.
At street level, the BOA could be so much more. Its street level retail spots are a revolving door, partially because most don't even know they exist because you can't really see them from the street. In terms of changing downtown for the better, I think one of the easiest fixes we can do is better expose street retail in our towers (ex. Everbank, BOA, Wells Fargo Center, etc.)
^^^I can think of countless NYC skyscrapers that don't have any retail outside. It's just magnified because Jax is on such a smaller scale. I personally don't expect the Mall of America on the bottom floor of every office building. Hell, look at the Empire State Building, all entrances; I don't see any fancy-schmancy parasol lined streets with cafes incorporated within ESB's first floor. There are other types of building ie Chamberlain's, parking garages etc that is better for that sorta thing IMO. I think that expecting tons of retail within the first floor of an office building is kinda nit picky, as most have their stores, cafes, etc inside the building. Just my opinion.
I don't think it's so much the expectation of tons of retail as the exposure of that retail. There's little in the way of signage to indicate to passersby that there is retail in those buildings.
Speaking of street-level retail, I see that another office furniture showroom is opening in either the Atlantic Bank Annex or 121 Atlantic Place, I forget which?
You can't really compare the BOA Tower (or anything in Jax ever) with NYC, because its on one of Downtown's most important streets. So much so that the city has invested heavily in improving the streetscape and creating a facade improvement program. If the BOA Tower and Old Independent Life Building had been designed to interact with Laura Street and had suitable retail spaces, they would be absolutely bustling, and Laura Street would be far more vibrant. Laura Street would be packed with restaurants, shops, bars, etc from Hemming to The Landing. Instead there is a dead zone in the middle.
Quote from: I-10east on June 25, 2013, 12:02:05 PM
^^^I can think of countless NYC skyscrapers that don't have any retail outside. It's just magnified because Jax is on such a smaller scale.
Yes, countless NYC skyscrapers don't have retail outside. Yes, it could be magnified because Jax is a smaller scale. Neither point makes our existing situation desirable. It can be improved and it's one of the easiest and most affordable things we can do in downtown Jacksonville to generate more pedestrian activity.
QuoteI personally don't expect the Mall of America on the bottom floor of every office building. Hell, look at the Empire State Building, all entrances; I don't see any fancy-schmancy parasol lined streets with cafes incorporated within ESB's first floor.
Okay. Nevertheless, there is street level retail, cafes, etc. in all of these towers. Most of it sits empty. Wouldn't you like those spaces to be occupied with viable businesses?
QuoteThere are other types of building ie Chamberlain's, parking garages etc that is better for that sorta thing IMO. I think that expecting tons of retail within the first floor of an office building is kinda nit picky, Just my opinion.
Got it. However, the fact is I'm talking about existing retail spaces, not an opinion of what could be built on site. I think we can both agree that an existing retail space filled with a revenue generating business is better than existing retail space sitting empty and collecting cobwebs.
Quote from: Wacca Pilatka on June 25, 2013, 12:12:26 PM
I don't think it's so much the expectation of tons of retail as the exposure of that retail. There's little in the way of signage to indicate to passersby that there is retail in those buildings.
Speaking of street-level retail, I see that another office furniture showroom is opening in either the Atlantic Bank Annex or 121 Atlantic Place, I forget which?
Workscapes, Inc. It will be great to see another existing empty street level space filled!
http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/blog/2013/06/workscapes-inc-building-out-downtown.html
City Life, yes I did mention New York with Jax as every NYC skyscraper doesn't look like it's on Times Square. You can drop Jax's BOA in the middle of Manhattan, and no one will ever notice anything outta place. JP Morgan Chase, oh that's certainly a freaking retail galore on it's first floor outside...
Quote from: I-10east on June 25, 2013, 12:19:49 PM
City Life, yes I did mention New York with Jax as every NYC skyscraper doesn't look like it's on Times Square. You can drop Jax's BOA in the middle of Manhattan, and no one will ever notice anything outta place. JP Morgan Chase, oh that's certainly a freaking retail galore on it's first floor outside...
You do understand the context of what you are arguing though right? You're comparing milk to orange juice. If every skyscraper in New York had ground floor retail, every retailer in the city would close in 2 weeks. However, if a skyscraper in NYC is located in an area that is desirable for retail, in all likelihood it interacts with the street and has restaurants, shops, bars, etc.
Also, not so sure the Empire State Building was the best NYC reference either. It has a 10,000 square foot flagship Walgreens and other retail.
Okay, everyone loves Charlotte right, so vibrant right? Post pics of Charlotte's tallest buildings' streetscapes? BTW, I'm not sure how they look; How bout Charlotte's BOA, Hearst, Duke Energy Center, and Marriott? Office buildings are designed for workers moreso than tourist, esp in second tier markets. Wanna know why there aren't signs littered outside most office buildings? They kinda are an eyesore for a beautiful granite facade building, and the workers know were the cafes, stores etc are inside.
I-10, this is okay with you?
Here's BOA. This space used to be a restaurant called the Laura Street Cafe:
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/1077843050_w9JJs-M.jpg)
Unless you worked in the building, you would have never known there was a restaurant in the BOA at the corner of Forsyth & Laura. Needless to say, this business closed and no one has leased the space in years. Wonder why?
Here's the original ground level plan of Independent Life Building, now the Wells Fargo Center:
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/463985053_EZuEM-M.jpg)
Lots of shops. Now you would never know that, if driving down Bay or Laura Streets:
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/1077843465_LxfHS-M.jpg)
With these two examples (there are a lot more in DT Jax), the built infrastructure is already there. All we need to do is embrace the street....
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/655714745_sfvDe-M.jpg)
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-1292-p1010711.JPG)
Quote from: CityLife on June 25, 2013, 12:34:10 PM
Also, not so sure the Empire State Building was the best NYC reference either. It has a 10,000 square foot flagship Walgreens and other retail.
Inside or outside? If outside, I certainly didn't see it on my trip back in 02', and I was on the other side apparently.
Quote from: I-10east on June 25, 2013, 12:02:05 PM
^^^I can think of countless NYC skyscrapers that don't have any retail outside. It's just magnified because Jax is on such a smaller scale. I personally don't expect the Mall of America on the bottom floor of every office building. Hell, look at the Empire State Building, all entrances; I don't see any fancy-schmancy parasol lined streets with cafes incorporated within ESB's first floor. There are other types of building ie Chamberlain's, parking garages etc that is better for that sorta thing IMO. I think that expecting tons of retail within the first floor of an office building is kinda nit picky, as most have their stores, cafes, etc inside the building. Just my opinion.
I-10 you must have never seen the ESB or even looked at it on Google street view. With the exception of lobbies for the top level tourist floors (on 5th ave) and two lobbies on 34th and 33rd streets for the offices, the entire street level is retail and a portion of the basement level as well. It has everything from a Walgreens, to a great brew house restaurant to jewelry and mobile phone stores as well as cafes and bakeries. And outside dining on the 33rd street side and on the Ave of America side. Most skyscrapers (600+ feet) on manhattan do have retail because the object is to make money off all available floor space.
It has nothing to do with what zip code you build in, if the density is there the retail will follow. I believe places like the BOA bldg (where my Jax office is) isn't targeting the people on the street. Their market is those of us in the building or going to the bank branch.
Quote from: I-10east on June 25, 2013, 12:44:36 PM
Quote from: CityLife on June 25, 2013, 12:34:10 PM
Also, not so sure the Empire State Building was the best NYC reference either. It has a 10,000 square foot flagship Walgreens and other retail.
Inside or outside? If outside, I certainly didn't see it on my trip back in 02', and I was on the other side apparently.
Direct entrance off the street and visible at street level. Google it.
Stephen, I don't know why Charlotte is being referenced but give me a minute or two and I'll post a few pics.
Lake, I personally think that the BOA cafe closed down because of the recession more than anything. Would've a sign helped some? Yes. Would that sign prevent it from closing? I dunno, I have my doubts on that one. Remember, the old Starbucks with it's 'ideal big city sign' outside ultimately fell victim to closure.
Quote from: stephendare on June 25, 2013, 12:36:09 PM
Quote from: CityLife on June 25, 2013, 12:34:10 PM
Quote from: I-10east on June 25, 2013, 12:19:49 PM
City Life, yes I did mention New York with Jax as every NYC skyscraper doesn't look like it's on Times Square. You can drop Jax's BOA in the middle of Manhattan, and no one will ever notice anything outta place. JP Morgan Chase, oh that's certainly a freaking retail galore on it's first floor outside...
You do understand the context of what you are arguing though right? You're comparing milk to orange juice. If every skyscraper in New York had ground floor retail, every retailer in the city would close in 2 weeks. However, if a skyscraper in NYC is located in an area that is desirable for retail, in all likelihood it interacts with the street and has restaurants, shops, bars, etc.
Also, not so sure the Empire State Building was the best NYC reference either. It has a 10,000 square foot flagship Walgreens and other retail.
Meh. Skyscrapers are skyscrapers and retail is retail. Im not sure that there is some magic property of geography that makes some principle of function work.
What New York has going for it is density, and Skyscrapers, if properly filled are density creators. That works no differently in New York, Yonkers or Jacksonville.
I'll see your meh and raise you a bleh.
Are you saying that our BOA Tower would have the same retail demand at Pearl and Beaver as it does at Laura and Bay?
The street level scene at a few Uptown Charlotte highrises. There appears to be ample street level retail and interaction between those spaces and the sidewalks next to them....
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-1417-p1010009.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/1938479137_qb7p8ZW-M.jpg)
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-1413-p1000958.jpg)
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-1412-p1000974.jpg)
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-1424-p1000993.jpg)
Quote from: JayBird on June 25, 2013, 12:49:32 PM
I believe places like the BOA bldg (where my Jax office is) isn't targeting the people on the street. Their market is those of us in the building or going to the bank branch.
I agree. That's the reason most of those businesses ultimately fail. Since half the towers are half empty, tenants alone can't support the ground level retail. It's one of the low hanging fruit I believe we should pick pretty quickly in our efforts to revitalize downtown.
Quote from: stephendare on June 25, 2013, 01:02:54 PM
Quote from: CityLife on June 25, 2013, 01:00:59 PM
Quote from: stephendare on June 25, 2013, 12:36:09 PM
Quote from: CityLife on June 25, 2013, 12:34:10 PM
Quote from: I-10east on June 25, 2013, 12:19:49 PM
City Life, yes I did mention New York with Jax as every NYC skyscraper doesn't look like it's on Times Square. You can drop Jax's BOA in the middle of Manhattan, and no one will ever notice anything outta place. JP Morgan Chase, oh that's certainly a freaking retail galore on it's first floor outside...
You do understand the context of what you are arguing though right? You're comparing milk to orange juice. If every skyscraper in New York had ground floor retail, every retailer in the city would close in 2 weeks. However, if a skyscraper in NYC is located in an area that is desirable for retail, in all likelihood it interacts with the street and has restaurants, shops, bars, etc.
Also, not so sure the Empire State Building was the best NYC reference either. It has a 10,000 square foot flagship Walgreens and other retail.
Meh. Skyscrapers are skyscrapers and retail is retail. Im not sure that there is some magic property of geography that makes some principle of function work.
What New York has going for it is density, and Skyscrapers, if properly filled are density creators. That works no differently in New York, Yonkers or Jacksonville.
I'll see your meh and raise you a bleh.
Are you saying that our BOA Tower would have the same retail demand at Pearl and Beaver as it does at Laura and Bay?
yes
So a country like China can just build a bunch of skyscrapers in the middle of nowhere and automatically create retail demand.....gotcha. Seems to be working out well.
I think it's reasonable to say that most traditional office buildings aren't very suitable for the kind of retail or mix of complementing uses that activate a space beyond typical work hours.
That being said, I-10 East, no offense, but I don't think you're totally up to speed on any of this. Once you reach employment density of 100,000 ppsm, which is normally only achieved through tower construction (the District in DC notwithstanding), you need services, retail, and restaurants in high density to serve these employees at least during ~15-18 hours of the day, which is better than we have now anywhere in Jax (in terms of activity). You'll actually find a TON of retail in office buildings lining every commercial street in Manhattan, in SF, in Boston, in Philadelphia, in Seattle, heck even Nashville and Charlotte.
Also, that kind of employment density attracts residential development and hotel development, both of which provide a different but highly beneficial demand for more goods/services in the immediate area.
My firm owns or has owned many office towers in many of the top markets here in the US (solid retail in almost every tower we have ever owned), and currently we are spending tons of money on a few to "activate" their bases to make them more attractive to new age tenants (this becomes more difficult when you have the HQ of a silk stocking law firm or a major investment bank or financial services firms...but this isn't most office buildings). We are spending $10.5M on a building I work on here in SF. Our neighbor is spending $12M a block away. Others are doing similar things.
Unfortunately for Jax, landlords there aren't as well capitalized, aren't seeing office rent growth, aren't benefiting from employment growth in the area (Everbank tower notwithstanding), and are basically still relying on city incentives and low taxes to keep them afloat rather than city leadership propping up the fundamentals which drive value in their buildings, allowing them to find financing or justify additional equity to improve their buildings or even build new.
We have an office building where we budgeted $75K to make minor improvements to the office lobby (140,000 SF 8 floor building where we projected a certain rent). Rents have been higher so we went to committee and asked for a $250K budget and got it. No retail in this tower's lobby (though a 55,000 SF flagship ROSS on first 3 floors that does not use lobby). I just wanted to point this out because in Jax you don't have rent growth. It's hard enough finding tenants to put in these buildings...LLs really can't justify an additional capital committment without a sign that the overall market and submarket will improve, which at this point requires city leadership, which is just not there.
I personally want to see more skyscrapers Downtown. However, I do think that we need to make an effort to fill what we have first. I also believe that if we did that, we'd be very close to the vibrancy that we want to achieve, or at least start to achieve. we have enough buildings to do that right now.
I also believe those South Philly style row houses would be good for the LaVilla neighborhood. I remember visiting my great grandmother. she lived in a row house, and they were great for density.
Running buses (especially the urban core buses) twice as often and at least several hours later than they do now. Add in trains and/or streetcars would be a great help, especially if they were electric. We wouldn't be burning as much gasoline, better for the environment.
But we won't do any of that with our current leadership.
Quote from: stephendare on June 25, 2013, 01:10:14 PM
Quote from: CityLife on June 25, 2013, 01:06:57 PM
Quote from: stephendare on June 25, 2013, 01:02:54 PM
Quote from: CityLife on June 25, 2013, 01:00:59 PM
Quote from: stephendare on June 25, 2013, 12:36:09 PM
Quote from: CityLife on June 25, 2013, 12:34:10 PM
Quote from: I-10east on June 25, 2013, 12:19:49 PM
City Life, yes I did mention New York with Jax as every NYC skyscraper doesn't look like it's on Times Square. You can drop Jax's BOA in the middle of Manhattan, and no one will ever notice anything outta place. JP Morgan Chase, oh that's certainly a freaking retail galore on it's first floor outside...
You do understand the context of what you are arguing though right? You're comparing milk to orange juice. If every skyscraper in New York had ground floor retail, every retailer in the city would close in 2 weeks. However, if a skyscraper in NYC is located in an area that is desirable for retail, in all likelihood it interacts with the street and has restaurants, shops, bars, etc.
Also, not so sure the Empire State Building was the best NYC reference either. It has a 10,000 square foot flagship Walgreens and other retail.
Meh. Skyscrapers are skyscrapers and retail is retail. Im not sure that there is some magic property of geography that makes some principle of function work.
What New York has going for it is density, and Skyscrapers, if properly filled are density creators. That works no differently in New York, Yonkers or Jacksonville.
I'll see your meh and raise you a bleh.
Are you saying that our BOA Tower would have the same retail demand at Pearl and Beaver as it does at Laura and Bay?
yes
So a country like China can just build a bunch of skyscrapers in the middle of nowhere and automatically create retail demand.....gotcha. Seems to be working out well.
interesting leap of logic, City Life. Im not sure what on earth it has to do with the discussion (or reality) but then again, thats why your the planning professional, right?
Is it your professional opinion that Jacksonville is either in China or has no residents that could support a single skyscraper?
You missed the point. The point was that skyscrapers aren't "density creators". If they were you could put a skyscraper anywhere on earth and literally create a dense, vibrant area. Hence the China ghost town analogy.
You can't put a skyscraper at Pearl and Beaver and expect it to create a vibrant streetfront....however, whether there is a skyscraper or a 2 story building at Laura and Bay Street, you can darn well expect there to be retail demand due to its strategic location. In this instance, as Lake and others have pointed out, the architects, developers, and city failed to design buildings along Laura that would create a vibrant, pedestrian friendly street scene.
Quote from: CityLife on June 25, 2013, 01:00:59 PM
Also, not so sure the Empire State Building was the best NYC reference either. It has a 10,000 square foot flagship Walgreens and other retail.
Do you know about when that Walgreens opened shop by any chance? It's seem like it was under construction with a bunch of scaffold outside on google (which is notorious for being outta date) From the 34th Street and 5th Street sides, I see a big difference from 02'.
Quote from: stephendare on June 25, 2013, 01:24:54 PM
Well, as arch as that sounds, City, you are also wrong.
There's nothing to argue...unless you can dispel these two claims. 1. The strategic location at Bay and Laura is far more desirable for retail than the outer parts of DT. 2. Said buildings were not designed to properly create a vibrant street scene.
If you can dispel those claims (which I have heard numerous people in the real estate and planning world also say) then go ahead and do so. Otherwise, save your time in arguing semantics in an attempt to steer the argument away from the relevant points at hand.
Quote from: stephendare on June 25, 2013, 01:02:20 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on June 25, 2013, 12:50:29 PM
Stephen, I don't know why Charlotte is being referenced but give me a minute or two and I'll post a few pics.
thanks Lake. I 10 is there any reason or particular thing that you would like to see about Charlotte's skyscrapers?
They aight. Particularly the restaurants that are built within the skyscrapers at street level. Certainly there not New York four facade retail monsters, but they are good enough for Charlotte, and certainly would be welcome in Jax.
Quote from: stephendare on June 25, 2013, 01:37:59 PM
Quote from: CityLife on June 25, 2013, 01:36:26 PM
Quote from: stephendare on June 25, 2013, 01:24:54 PM
Well, as arch as that sounds, City, you are also wrong.
There's nothing to argue...unless you can dispel these two claims. 1. The strategic location at Bay and Laura is far more desirable for retail than the outer parts of DT. 2. Said buildings were not designed to properly create a vibrant street scene.
If you can dispel those claims (which I have heard numerous people in the real estate and planning world also say) then go ahead and do so. Otherwise, save your time in arguing semantics in an attempt to steer the argument away from the relevant points at hand.
again, i am busy at the moment, yet still serene in the knowledge that you are wrong. Patience. Its a virtue
The whole world eagerly awaits while you Google. In the meantime, I suggest you and others read the article I posted earlier in the thread.
http://assemblepapers.com.au/2013/06/13/cities-for-people-jan-gehl/?goback=.gde_97473_member_249724420
When in doubt, you can always count on Stephen debating with someone consistently. I'm glad to have escaped out of the line of fire, whew! :)
Quote from: I-10east on June 25, 2013, 01:24:31 PM
Quote from: CityLife on June 25, 2013, 01:00:59 PM
Also, not so sure the Empire State Building was the best NYC reference either. It has a 10,000 square foot flagship Walgreens and other retail.
Do you know about when that Walgreens opened shop by any chance? It's seem like it was under construction with a bunch of scaffold outside on google (which is notorious for being outta date) From the 34th Street and 5th Street sides, I see a big difference from 02'.
Innaccurate once again I-10, this certainly isn't one of your better threads. Google in NYC updates every three months, however it is more like 15-20 days. This is obtained by a google car that remains in the five boroughs. That scaffolding was erected in May to do work on the upper portion of the ESB. Walgreens has been in that current space since summer or fall of 2011. The space they occupied in the ESB prior to that is now a fitness center. Walgreens first moved into the ESB in the late 90's and have moved within the building twice.
In 2006 the facade was reverted back to its original look, but the retail areas street side in the bldg haven't changed since the 80's. surprisingly, the biggest problem the ESB had was keeping its office space filled.
Are Skyscrapers Overrated?
Only if your city doesn't have any.
Quote from: Ocklawaha on June 25, 2013, 06:12:58 PM
Are Skyscrapers Overrated?
Only if your city doesn't have any.
This my friend is why this tread was created in the first place.