Poll
Question:
Do you think the city should lease the armory to the Sons of Confederate Veterans for $1 a year?
Option 1: Yes: At least they'll restore the building and put it back in use
votes: 14
Option 2: No: Any organization but that one
votes: 9
Option 3: Maybe: An attempt should be made to see if additional organizations are interested in the space
votes: 29
(http://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad1/jsimms3/JIA%20Food%20Pans%20and%20RAM/AroundJacksonville-EarlyWinter166.jpg)
Photo courtesy of Simms3Sitting empty for years, the old Duval County Armory is one of the urban core's most architecturally unique buildings. Built in 1916, it was once home to Florida's largest military drill hall. Mayor Alvin Brown's administration originally considered repurposing the site as a homeless day center but now the Sons of Confederacy wants it.
What's your position?
QuoteSons of Confederacy want to lease city building
City councilwoman proposes $1 lease in exchange for repairs, maintenance
A city councilwoman wants to let the Sons of Confederate Veterans lease the old Duval County Armory on Market Street downtown for $1 per year in exchange for repairs and maintenance.
Councilwoman Kimberly Daniels sponsored an ordinance that give the group a 10-year lease on the building constructed in 1915-16, with the option for two five-year renewals. The agreement would have the group provide repairs and improvements, general maintenance, including mowing and landscaping, and providing insurance coverage as in-kind contributions in lieu of rent.
Quote"We would have our meetings there," he said. "We would have exhibits there and it would be all militia pertaining to Florida as well as the U.S. It would not be all Civil War. We would also have World War II and so forth."
full article: http://www.news4jax.com/news/sons-of-confederacy-want-to-lease-city-building/-/475880/20538746/-/ca7e9nz/-/index.html
I'm not going to touch the Confederate thing.....but the city should RFP it, as I'd imagine there may be other organizations with an interest in utilizing the building. Otherwise, it seems like a behind closed doors type of deal. I know there are some serious cleanup and maintenance costs, but a $1 a year lease for 20 years is a pretty sweet deal for the great, great grandsons of the Confederacy.
While the city is at it, does anyone want to put together a development team and try to lease the Old Courthouse with me? It's a pretty prime real estate spot. I'd say worth at least $7 a year.
"Maybe" leaning "no". Besides the issues with the group's agenda, we shouldn't just give such an important structure over to any organization without seeing if there are other takers who can provide a better deal for the city and its property.
I think we kind of owe it to the taxpayers to see if NAMBLA or Sons of the Third-Reich are interested first...
Can we get a $1/year lease going on 9th & Main?
Just stamp "Confederate" on something and the city will love you for it and give you anything you want. I asked a cop today, if I were to go to a city council meeting, and they closed down a library or killed another human right bill, would I get into trouble with the law if I burned a confederate flag outside of city hall after the meeting? The cop said I had the right to free speech.
So who wants to piss off the GOB with me!?
The return of the "Dollar Deal" is a very bad idea. Is this really about putting an old building to good use or is it more like using "public assets" to enhance the personal and political agenda's of some. For those who don't follow the "Dollar Deals" this city has in the past handed out to certain groups and individuals you should know that it is rarely if ever about the effective use of public properties. Let me give you one of many, many examples. The biggest one that I have personally witnessed, researched and in some cases thwarted. In this instance the dealings impacted and in some cases helped fuel the destruction of the La Villa community. The Genovar Hall building was one of those failed "Dollar Deals" created and fueled by councilman Warren Jones, councilman Reggie Fullwood and then DDA Director Al Battle. The recipients of this dollar deal actually ended up getting the building sold to them by the city for $10.00. The political lever was that in order for certain agenda's to proceed in LaVilla, unimpeded by Black politicians who may otherwise object to the destruction of an historically Black community, you give away some public land goodies to the right people. In the mix of these "Dollar Dealings" we saw three shotgun houses moved next to the Genovar structure at a cost to the city of 100K, that were to be another "deal" in the property and land land grab by a local, politically connected fraternity to create "The LaVilla Experience", brainchild of councilman Reggie Fullwood, which was a proposed park (using city funds) with the Genovar Structure being used as an anchor, restaurant and bar owned by this fraternity. It was being sold as a "charity museum" with the actually plans moving through the city showing a bar, lounge and outside stage. Brewster hospital was set to be relocated to the same parcel at nearly 200K of taxpayers expense to become another "Dollar Deal" for a local Dentist. This type of deal making is for gaining favors, securing public properties for private use at a cost of next to nothing with the added bonus of the poltical backing of those on the receiving end of such dealings. Kimberly Daniels is not the first to embrace the "Dollar Deal" but may represent the most recent attempt to return to this type of dealing. It's not what it seems, although it can be painted as an altruistic endeavor. In the case of LaVilla and the fraternity, it they had been allowed to continue unchallenged was on track to secure several blocks of LaVilla land as well as structures for next to nothing.
An RFP needs to be issued regarding the use of this building and others currently owned by the city. I am not against offering deals of reduced rents to put activity into a building and in some cases would encourage it, but to the "Dollar Deal" concept I say not only no but in most cases "Hell No"!
I agree that the City should put an open bid out to any organization to see if there is interest. They City should see what other interest there is in the building, if any.
Should it go for $1/year? Probably not. Why not do a full construction/restoration bid for the property. Have the tenant put some funds down to get the restoration started, then based on the lease term, divide the remaining cost of restoration over a period within the lease. That would be the "lease payment".
The basement in that building has had significant water intrusion. Maintenance of that building will be no small/inexpensive task.
Im actually ok with a dollar deal if the alternative is to leave it empty for years.
Side Note: Jacksonville was occupied 4 times, which covered much of the war, and had a large union loyal residential contingent. A union war museum seems more appropriate.
Oh, FWIW, this building is NOT in historic Springfield. Close, but not within the district. It is a part of the downtown core.
Quote from: Demosthenes on June 19, 2013, 12:41:08 PM
The basement in that building had had significant water intrusion. Maintenance of that building will be no small/inexpensive task.
Im actually ok with a dollar deal if the alternative is to leave it empty for years.
Side Note: Jacksonville was occupied 4 times, and was under occupation much of the war and had a large union loyal resident contingent. A union war museum seems more appropriate.
These deals don't work and there is no oversight at all to make sure that the things agreed upon, in this case maintenance, is ever properly done. You mention the water intrusion problem. Will this be a small fix or something major? How do we know if the Confederate group can afford to deal with such issues? There would have to be a complete inspection of the property as well as a "punch list" of items that the group renting would repair and maintain as a part of the agreement, then a city employee or employees would have to continually check to see if the agreements were kept. Lastly we then have a city property tied up by contract for 10 years in this case which would impact the ability of the city to rent to someone who could pay market value rent on the structure as well as the ability to sell it. Not a good idea and opens wide the doors for other private organizations to ask for similar deals on other public structures. Further with the selection of a Director to oversee the newly formed DIA, perhaps we should see what the new director and board think is the best use for the structure might be. Maybe the best idea would be to have the property appraised and then have the city offer it for sale at a reasonable or even discounted value.
Quote from: JaxUnicorn on June 19, 2013, 12:43:33 PM
Oh, FWIW, this building is NOT in historic Springfield. Close, but not within the district. It is a part of the downtown core.
It's actually in "no man's" land. Downtown's official border is across State Street. That's why the McDonald's and 7-Eleven down the street have two completely different site layout patterns. 7-Eleven was designed to downtown's design guidelines because it fell within its official borders and McDonald's put up their typical box and parking lot because it's outside of the border.
All very valid concerns. But again, if the alternative is a total lack of maintenance, eventual condemning, and demolition.... I like the dollar deal, even as a stop gap to save a great building like the armory.
Lake mentioned 9th and Main. When was that building last used? 2009?
The Child Care facility at 1st and APR? 2008?
What about Jax Seafood in Lavilla? Never?
Jax sucks at managing property, and it seldom ends well.
Quote from: Cheshire Cat on June 19, 2013, 12:54:19 PM
Quote from: Demosthenes on June 19, 2013, 12:41:08 PM
The basement in that building had had significant water intrusion. Maintenance of that building will be no small/inexpensive task.
Im actually ok with a dollar deal if the alternative is to leave it empty for years.
Side Note: Jacksonville was occupied 4 times, and was under occupation much of the war and had a large union loyal resident contingent. A union war museum seems more appropriate.
These deals don't work and there is no oversight at all to make sure that the things agreed upon, in this case maintenance, is ever properly done. You mention the water intrusion problem. Will this be a small fix or something major? How do we know if the Confederate group can afford to deal with such issues? There would have to be a complete inspection of the property as well as a "punch list" of items that the group renting would repair and maintain as a part of the agreement, then a city employee or employees would have to continually check to see if the agreements were kept. Lastly we then have a city property tied up by contract for 10 years in this case which would impact the ability of the city to rent to someone who could pay market value rent on the structure as well as the ability to sell it. Not a good idea and opens wide the doors for other private organizations to ask for similar deals on other public structures. Further with the selection of a Director to oversee the newly formed DIA, perhaps we should see what the new director and board think is the best use for the structure might be. Maybe the best idea would be to have the property appraised and then have the city offer it for sale at a reasonable or even discounted value.
This property isn't within the jurisdiction of the DIA. It's one of a few blocks between State Street and Hogans Creek, that isn't Springfield or downtown.
Thanks for the clarification Ennis. In that case, we should still put out an RFP for the building or appraise it and put it up for sale. Clearly the city "stinks" when it comes to properly maintaining public property or willingness to appropriate proper funding to do so.
Quote from: Demosthenes on June 19, 2013, 01:03:05 PM
All very valid concerns. But again, if the alternative is a total lack of maintenance, eventual condemning, and demolition.... I like the dollar deal, even as a stop gap to save a great building like the armory.
Lake mentioned 9th and Main. When was that building last used? 2009?
The Child Care facility at 1st and APR? 2008?
What about Jax Seafood in Lavilla? Never?
Jax sucks at managing property, and it seldom ends well.
Nobody knows what the alternative is because an RFP hasn't been issued. Without the city seeking bidders, nobody has a clue who would be interested, what they would be interested in doing, how much they would spend on repairs, etc.
The amount of people/groups that have been interested (and still are interested) in buying 9th and Main is lengthy. I forget a lot of them now, but off the top of my head Carmine's sticks out.
But yes, you are absolutely right that Jax is awful at managing property. Giving away The Armory to a group that isn't exactly beloved by all for a $1 a year without feeling out the market would be right up there with the worst of COJ's land management moves.
Wasnt an RFP issued for all of these locations previously?
Quote from: Demosthenes on June 19, 2013, 01:23:36 PM
Wasnt an RFP issued for all of these locations previously?
An announcement had been made sometime back that an inventory of city owned property and structures was to be done and then discussion and decisions about how to address what was owned undertaken. Since then there has been no further discussion that I know of. As to a recent RFP I am unsure as to when the last one was done. If however we have reached the point where a dollar lease is being proposed, another RFP "should" be issued.
Yes RFP's for others have been issued and I imagine that is why the city isn't doing 20 year leases for $1 at those places, because they know there is some value and demand. The city was also trying to sell those places, not give out free leases, so its not really apples to apples with the Armory. I can't speak for the other properties, but the city handled the 9th and Main RFP process horrifically and then just stopped even working with interested parties. The real problem with the 9th and Main deal was that the city had an above market valuation of the property.
The valuation of The Armory should be...what does the user contribute to the public good of Jacksonville as well as the immediate area, how well will they repair/maintain the building, what will they pay the city for a lease or will the use potentially have revenue sharing capabilities in lieu of a lease...and probably other stuff I can't think of right now.
I want that building in use and repaired as much as everyone else, but I'd like to see a fair, democratic process that benefits all the residents and taxpayers of Jacksonville...not a select few who worked out a behind the scenes deal.
Quote from: CityLife on June 19, 2013, 01:46:25 PM
Yes RFP's for others have been issued and I imagine that is why the city isn't doing 20 year leases for $1 at those places, because they know there is some value and demand. The city was also trying to sell those places, not give out free leases, so its not really apples to apples with the Armory. I can't speak for the other properties, but the city handled the 9th and Main RFP process horrifically and then just stopped even working with interested parties. The real problem with the 9th and Main deal was that the city had an above market valuation of the property.
The valuation of The Armory should be...what does the user contribute to the public good of Jacksonville as well as the immediate area, how well will they repair/maintain the building, what will they pay the city for a lease or will the use potentially have revenue sharing capabilities in lieu of a lease...and probably other stuff I can't think of right now.
I want that building in use and repaired as much as everyone else, but I'd like to see a fair, democratic process that benefits all the residents and taxpayers of Jacksonville...not a select few who worked out a behind the scenes deal.
Yup, you hit the nail on the head! ;)
Don't let MCCD hear that there is water damage, and abandoned. They will want an emergency Demo in no time.
Quote from: mbwright on June 19, 2013, 01:56:53 PM
Don't let MCCD hear that there is water damage, and abandoned. They will want an emergency Demo in no time.
This building and it's issues are already on the radar. I don't think we will see any moves to attempt to demolish, although in this city one should always keep their eye on the prize.
Quote from: Cheshire Cat on June 19, 2013, 01:32:39 PM
Quote from: Demosthenes on June 19, 2013, 01:23:36 PM
Wasnt an RFP issued for all of these locations previously?
An announcement had been made sometime back that an inventory of city owned property and structures was to be done and then discussion and decisions about how to address what was owned undertaken. Since then there has been no further discussion that I know of. As to a recent RFP I am unsure as to when the last one was done. If however we have reached the point where a dollar lease is being proposed, another RFP "should" be issued.
This was in the paper last week http://mayportmirror.jacksonville.com/news/premium-news/2013-06-14/story/jacksonvilles-investments-restaurants-not-likely-be-fully
I cut and paste the part of about the 9th and main building but it talks about other city properties too.
The city also must find a buyer for a vacant restaurant building at the corner of Ninth and Main streets in Springfield. The city has owned it since January 2010, and Springfield residents say it’s become an eyesore that holds back the neighborhood.
“It’s just been very frustrating to know the city is the reason why nothing has happened,†said Bill Hoff, president of Springfield Preservation and Revitalization, a nonprofit neighborhood group.
The city is open to selling the property “if that would contribute to Springfield revitalization,†said Chris Hand, chief of staff for Mayor Alvin Brown.
He said the property has some “environmental challenges†from its former use as an auto repair shop. A sale of the property also would have to clear up back taxes, which total about $90,000, according to the Duval County Tax Collector’s office.
The Ninth and Main property was a boarded-up repair garage when the city gave Symbiosis Investments a loan to help convert it into a combination restaurant and lounge. The building housed two restaurants, Henrietta’s followed by Nosh, but both closed. Symbiosis later defaulted on repaying its loan.
Hoff said Springfield can support a restaurant at Ninth and Main.
“If the city would just get out of the way,†he said, “it could be used for a community asset.â€
The city has gotten some offers, albeit for less than what it invested through the loan.
In 2012, Springfield resident Marlon Hubbard and some fellow investors offered to buy the building for $138,000. Hubbard said he waited months and eventually withdrew the offer because it was taking too long to get an answer from the city.
Hubbard planned to put a coffee bar, a piano bar and a venue for live performances in the building. He said it would have been open by now.
“The longer it sits like that, the more money a potential investor had to put into it to bring it back up,†he said. “They [city officials] are not gaining any value by having it just sit there.â€
The city had planned to hire a consultant to evaluate all the city’s real estate holdings. But both firms seeking that contract would have charged more than the $150,000 budget for the study. Hand said the city will either narrow the scope of the study and rebid it, or do an in-house study.
He said the Ninth and Main building “will be a priority†for that study.
Ah yes. More studies. Lets stop all progress for Studies. When did John Peyton get back to the 4th floor?
Quote from: John P on June 20, 2013, 10:05:43 AM
“It’s just been very frustrating to know the city is the reason why nothing has happened,†said Bill Hoff, president of Springfield Preservation and Revitalization, a nonprofit neighborhood group.
Oh the irony. Really, this has got to win some kind of award...
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on June 20, 2013, 10:24:44 AM
Quote from: John P on June 20, 2013, 10:05:43 AM
“It’s just been very frustrating to know the city is the reason why nothing has happened,†said Bill Hoff, president of Springfield Preservation and Revitalization, a nonprofit neighborhood group.
Oh the irony. Really, this has got to win some kind of award...
+1
Quote
The city had planned to hire a consultant to evaluate all the city’s real estate holdings. But both firms seeking that contract would have charged more than the $150,000 budget for the study. Hand said the city will either narrow the scope of the study and rebid it, or do an in-house study.
He said the Ninth and Main building “will be a priority†for that study.
The bottom line here is that the Mayor and his administration publicly announced that there was to be a list made of city owned properties and
"nothing" was done. There are far too many announcements coming from the mayor and his administration about plans that are never realized. It is unsettling. There is also the question of why between Public Works, Public buildings and a city real estate office that we would be hiring someone to create a list of city owned properties when the city should be able to generate an up to date, accurate list without the need for a "study" by an outside organization. The lack of an updated list is not only problematic but in many ways unacceptable. These assets belong to the citizens and by the appearance of things, it does not look like the city even has an understanding of what those assets are! Amazing!
^^^We are so LOST. Wait until the secret FIND list is unveiled on 6/26/13. Talk about a clueless council.
Anyone want to make a donation to 2009-442 the Corrupt Council Area Reef.
Did anyone go to the 6/19/13 DIA Board meeting? DIA Board member Barakat asked if the armory is in the DIA zone. It is not. Fellow Board member Allegretti when notified that the Sons of the Confederate Veterans were seeking a dollar a year asked "Will that be in Confederate dollars?" The man just brings the house down. That is why the Downtown Experience chaired by Tony Allegretti is the most fun subcommittee of the DIA.
Quote from: CityLife on June 19, 2013, 09:44:24 AM
While the city is at it, does anyone want to put together a development team and try to lease the Old Courthouse with me? It's a pretty prime real estate spot. I'd say worth at least $7 a year.
I'm in for a buck. We have water access right next door with Hogans Creek.
The city is still struggling with racial issues. The only people who don't seem to think so are the ones who have lived here all of their lives.
There is a high school named after a KKK leader and it is predominately filled with children of color.
The issue is too sensitive for this -- maybe some day, but not today.
IMHO
Quote from: Cheshire Cat on June 20, 2013, 10:58:46 AM
The bottom line here is that the Mayor and his administration publicly announced that there was to be a list made of city owned properties and "nothing" was done. There are far too many announcements coming from the mayor and his administration about plans that are never realized. It is unsettling. There is also the question of why between Public Works, Public buildings and a city real estate office that we would be hiring someone to create a list of city owned properties when the city should be able to generate an up to date, accurate list without the need for a "study" by an outside organization. The lack of an updated list is not only problematic but in many ways unacceptable. These assets belong to the citizens and by the appearance of things, it does not look like the city even has an understanding of what those assets are! Amazing"
Sorry I messed up the formatting here, but related to Cheshire Cat's comment is that Florida Statute 166.0451 requires EVERY local government to put together an inventory every 3 years of properties owned by the municipality that would be suitable for affordable housing. In order to figure out what is suitable for affordable housing, there would have to be a master list of city owned properties put together. Where is this stuff? This statute began in 2007, so are we due for a new list (this is assuming that a list was prepared in 2007 and 2010)?
166.0451 Disposition of municipal property for affordable housing.â€"
(1) By July 1, 2007, and every 3 years thereafter, each municipality shall prepare an inventory list of all real property within its jurisdiction to which the municipality holds fee simple title that is appropriate for use as affordable housing. The inventory list must include the address and legal description of each such property and specify whether the property is vacant or improved. The governing body of the municipality must review the inventory list at a public hearing and may revise it at the conclusion of the public hearing. Following the public hearing, the governing body of the municipality shall adopt a resolution that includes an inventory list of such property.
(2) The properties identified as appropriate for use as affordable housing on the inventory list adopted by the municipality may be offered for sale and the proceeds may be used to purchase land for the development of affordable housing or to increase the local government fund earmarked for affordable housing, or may be sold with a restriction that requires the development of the property as permanent affordable housing, or may be donated to a nonprofit housing organization for the construction of permanent affordable housing. Alternatively, the municipality may otherwise make the property available for use for the production and preservation of permanent affordable housing. For purposes of this section, the term “affordable†has the same meaning as in s. 420.0004(3).
More laws the city conveniently forgets about, or ignores. Would be interesting to see the 2007, and 2010 lists, too. and the outcome.
Quote from: m74reeves on June 20, 2013, 12:35:27 PM
166.0451 Disposition of municipal property for affordable housing.â€"
(1) By July 1, 2007, and every 3 years thereafter, each municipality shall prepare an inventory list of all real property within its jurisdiction to which the municipality holds fee simple title that is appropriate for use as affordable housing. The inventory list must include the address and legal description of each such property and specify whether the property is vacant or improved. The governing body of the municipality must review the inventory list at a public hearing and may revise it at the conclusion of the public hearing. Following the public hearing, the governing body of the municipality shall adopt a resolution that includes an inventory list of such property.
(2) The properties identified as appropriate for use as affordable housing on the inventory list adopted by the municipality may be offered for sale and the proceeds may be used to purchase land for the development of affordable housing or to increase the local government fund earmarked for affordable housing, or may be sold with a restriction that requires the development of the property as permanent affordable housing, or may be donated to a nonprofit housing organization for the construction of permanent affordable housing. Alternatively, the municipality may otherwise make the property available for use for the production and preservation of permanent affordable housing. For purposes of this section, the term “affordable†has the same meaning as in s. 420.0004(3).
Well now, another case of the city's lack of due diligence and overall disrespect for it's own written requirements.
Quote from: mbwright on June 20, 2013, 01:53:37 PM
More laws the city conveniently forgets about, or ignores. Would be interesting to see the 2007, and 2010 lists, too. and the outcome.
Indeed and they continue to get away with it. We the taxpayers need to demand better management and oversight of "the citizens" assets!
this is a STATE statute, btw. even more embarrassing.
This is one of the reasons why I am against the city taking at-risk properties from owners for preservation reasons.
The city's properties are just as vulnerable and at-risk.
The Armory, for one.
9th and Main, for another.
Quote from: m74reeves on June 20, 2013, 02:21:41 PM
this is a STATE statute, btw. even more embarrassing.
That statute appears to relate exclusively to property that is "appropriate for use as affordable housing".
Quote from: m74reeves on June 20, 2013, 02:21:41 PM
this is a STATE statute, btw. even more embarrassing.
Quotesheclown This is one of the reasons why I am against the city taking at-risk properties from owners for preservation reasons.
The city's properties are just as vulnerable and at-risk.
The Armory, for one.
9th and Main, for another.
You are both right on the money with these statements. Gloria, this city has in the past secured many private properties for a variety of reasons and often it has led to their sell off at bargain basement prices or demolition. It would be a very iffy thing to have the city take control of further private properties even for preservation purposes. The folks in the Preservation office would be vigilant about them but in many cases are not able to override the will and agenda's of some in power.
Quote from: Cheshire Cat on June 20, 2013, 02:37:46 PM
Quote from: m74reeves on June 20, 2013, 02:21:41 PM
this is a STATE statute, btw. even more embarrassing.
Quotesheclown This is one of the reasons why I am against the city taking at-risk properties from owners for preservation reasons.
The city's properties are just as vulnerable and at-risk.
The Armory, for one.
9th and Main, for another.
You are both right on the money with these statements. Gloria, this city has in the past secured many private properties for a variety of reasons and often it has led to their sell off a bargain basement prices or demolition. It would be a very iffy thing to have the city take control off further private properties even for preservation purposes. The folks in the Preservation office would be vigilant about them but in many cases are not able to override the will and agenda's of some in power.
as recent history tells us...
citylife, agreed that the statute is related to property suitable for affordable housing, which may or may not be the case for the armory. perhaps i should have started a new thread, but my point was that the city seems to be incapable of puting together a listing of properties that the city owns. in order to conclude what city owned properties might be used (or sold for, etc) for affordable housing, the city needs to have some sort of list of what they own to begin with. i threw out this statute as a means to try to figure out what the city owns and what are plans for these properties.
obviously there are parcels that the city owns that we are aware of such as parks, city hall and some parcels that are probably needed or earmarked for future projects/engineering/drainage/etc., but there are some properties that should be reviewed to see if the rental or disposition can aid the city directly financially OR perhaps the disposition can aid the city by provision of affordable housing or support of a group that provides some sort of social service to the community or supporting economic development...there has to be a better tool for disposition of publicly owned properties.
I totally agree. I was just pointing out that I don't think the city is at risk of violating that statute here...but you are right that they maybe doing so in other cases.
we're on the same page. :) I have a tendency to pick up a different book, sometimes. haha.
you've made some excellent points about the disposition of this particular property.
Quote from: m74reeves on June 20, 2013, 12:35:27 PM
166.0451 Disposition of municipal property for affordable housing.â€"
(1) By July 1, 2007, and every 3 years thereafter, each municipality shall prepare an inventory list of all real property within its jurisdiction to which the municipality holds fee simple title that is appropriate for use as affordable housing. The inventory list must include the address and legal description of each such property and specify whether the property is vacant or improved. The governing body of the municipality must review the inventory list at a public hearing and may revise it at the conclusion of the public hearing. Following the public hearing, the governing body of the municipality shall adopt a resolution that includes an inventory list of such property.
(2) The properties identified as appropriate for use as affordable housing on the inventory list adopted by the municipality may be offered for sale and the proceeds may be used to purchase land for the development of affordable housing or to increase the local government fund earmarked for affordable housing, or may be sold with a restriction that requires the development of the property as permanent affordable housing, or may be donated to a nonprofit housing organization for the construction of permanent affordable housing. Alternatively, the municipality may otherwise make the property available for use for the production and preservation of permanent affordable housing. For purposes of this section, the term “affordable†has the same meaning as in s. 420.0004(3).
Now now Reeves....do you actually think the City follows its own rules/laws? How's that working out with the ordinance that instructs the City to preserve historic structures? :o
i think you can surmise my response, but you know it's hard to even know if the city is following its own rules when you cannot get the most basic information about how city business is conducted.
the city has got to do better and quit talking out of both sides of their mouth. the existing ordinance does instruct to have "the least intensive impact" on properties in historic areas, but then gives the MCC Chief the authority to interpret and execute as she deems fit.
my newbie impression is that a lot of city staff people have more power than the city council, maybe even the mayor. there definitely is not a shared vision to improve the city...it's all about each person's little power play.
Quote from: m74reeves on June 20, 2013, 05:03:22 PM
i think you can surmise my response, but you know it's hard to even know if the city is following its own rules when you cannot get the most basic information about how city business is conducted.
the city has got to do better and quit talking out of both sides of their mouth. the existing ordinance does instruct to have "the least intensive impact" on properties in historic areas, but then gives the MCC Chief the authority to interpret and execute as she deems fit.
my newbie impression is that a lot of city staff people have more power than the city council, maybe even the mayor. there definitely is not a shared vision to improve the city...it's all about each person's little power play.
+1
Quote from: Tacachale on June 19, 2013, 09:59:53 AM
"Maybe" leaning "no". Besides the issues with the group's agenda, we shouldn't just give such an important structure over to any organization without seeing if there are other takers who can provide a better deal for the city and its property.
What would that 'agenda' be Tacachale? I believe you will find that the SCV accepts members of any race, color or creed. They do occasionally show up at Klan rally's but when they do it is to protest the Klan and the use of Confederate banners as a symbol of hate rather then one-time Southern nationalist dreams.
Quote from: sheclown on June 20, 2013, 12:16:27 PM
The city is still struggling with racial issues. The only people who don't seem to think so are the ones who have lived here all of their lives.
There is a high school named after a KKK leader and it is predominately filled with children of color.
The issue is too sensitive for this -- maybe some day, but not today.
IMHO
THE KLAN CONNECTION:
During Reconstruction, Union Leagues were formed across the South after 1867 as working auxiliaries of the Republican Party. They mobilized freedmen to register to vote and to vote Republican. They discussed political issues, promoted civic projects, and mobilized workers opposed to certain employers. Most branches were segregated but there were a few that were racially integrated. The leaders of the all-black units were mostly urban blacks from the North, who had never been slaves.
Forrest described the original purpose of the Klan as "a protective political military organization... The members are sworn to recognize the government of the United States... Its objects originally were protection against Loyal Leagues and the Grand Army of the Republic, In addition to aiding Confederate widows and orphans of the war..." many members of the new group began to use force to oppose the extension of voting rights to blacks and to resist Reconstruction era measures for ending segregation. In 1869, Forrest, disagreeing with its increasingly violent tactics, ordered the Klan to disband, stating that it was "being perverted from its original honorable and patriotic purposes, becoming injurious instead of subservient to the public peace." Forrest testified before the Congressional investigation on Klan activities on June 27, 1871. Forrest denied membership. The committee also noted, "The natural tendency of all such organizations is to violence and crime;
hence it was that General Forrest and other men of influence in the state, by the exercise of their moral power, induced them to disband.†A MAN CHANGED:
In these latter years of tribulation the prayers of Mary Montgomery Forrest were answered when Bedford turned to the religion which always had been so large a part of her life. On the streets of Memphis one day in 1875 Forrest met the Reverend Raliegh White, the same who as a lieutenant colonel had long commanded the old Fourteenth Tennessee Cavalry, and who now, as he told his general, was in Texas “preaching the word of God.†After a short conversation the two stepped into the quiet of the parlor of a bank near by, to kneel together in prayer.
Not long afterward, on November 14, 1875, a calm Sabbath evening, the General walked into the Court Street Cumberland Presbyterian Church, Mrs. Forrest on his arm, and told the minister, the Reverend G. T. Stainback, that he had decided to accept the Christian faith. “There was no half way of doing things with Forrest,†the minister said afterward in a lecture, “and this is the way he entered the religious faith. … The news of his conversion had gone abroad and the church was filled the following Sunday morning. When I called for new members he folded his arms and deliberately walked down the aisle to the altar. I thought then that I had never seen such a magnificent man as General Forrest that day!†SOURCE, BOOK : “‘First with the Most’ Forrest†by Robert Selph Henry.
CIVIL RIGHTS AND EQUALITY:
A convention and BBQ was held by the Independent Order of Pole-Bearers Association (a precursor to the NAACP) at the fairgrounds of Memphis, five miles east of the city. An invitation to speak was conveyed to General Nathan Bedford Forrest, one of the city's most prominent citizens, and one of the foremost cavalry commanders in the late War Between the States. This was the first invitation granted to a white man to speak at this gathering. The invitation's purpose, one of the leaders said, was to extend peace, joy, and union, and following a brief welcoming address a Miss Lou Lewis, daughter of an officer of the Pole-Bearers, brought forward flowers and assurances that she conveyed them as a token of good will. After Miss Lewis handed him the flowers, General Forrest responded with a short speech that, in the contemporary pages of the Memphis Appeal, evinces Forrest's racial open-mindedness that seemed to have been growing in him.
“Ladies and Gentlemen I accept the flowers as a memento of reconciliation between the white and colored races of the southern states. I accept it more particularly as it comes from a colored lady, for if there is any one on God's earth who loves the ladies I believe it is myself. ( Immense applause and laughter.) I came here with the jeers of some white people, who think that I am doing wrong. I believe I can exert some influence, and do much to assist the people in strengthening fraternal relations, and shall do all in my power to elevate every man to depress none. (Applause.) I want to elevate you to take positions in law offices, in stores, on farms, and wherever you are capable of going. I have not said anything about politics today. I don't propose to say anything about politics. You have a right to elect whom you please; vote for the man you think best, and I think, when that is done, you and I are freemen. Do as you consider right and honest in electing men for office. I did not come here to make you a long speech, although invited to do so by you. I am not much of a speaker, and my business prevented me from preparing myself. I came to meet you as friends, and welcome you to the white people. I want you to come nearer to us. When I can serve you I will do so. We have but one flag, one country; let us stand together. We may differ in color, but not in sentiment Many things have been said about me which are wrong, and which white and black persons here, who stood by me through the war, can contradict. Go to work, be industrious, live honestly and act truly, and when you are oppressed I'll come to your relief. I thank you, ladies and gentlemen, for this opportunity you have afforded me to be with you, and to assure you that I am with you in heart and in hand. (Prolonged applause.)â€
Whereupon N. B. Forrest again thanked Miss Lewis for the bouquet and then gave her a kiss on the cheek. Such a kiss was unheard of in the society of those days, in 1875, but it showed a token of respect and friendship between the general and the black community and did much to promote harmony among the citizens of Memphis.
I believe if we are really to standup for education and tolerance we should be bold enough to celebrate not just the Confederacy, but how many of its former leaders paved a way to a new and accepting south. It would be very cool if the high school, the SCV and historical associations of all colors could band together to publish or produce a treatise on reconciliation and truth as it related to Forrest.
Perhaps Forrest gets a bad rap, BUT between the Ft Pillow incident and being the Grandwizard, and just to mention that the school was named for a confederate general specifically because it flew in the face of the civil rights movement, I think renaming the school is an acceptable thing.
Yes, the early KKK ALSO hated carpetbaggers and other northern scallowags, but growing concern over the large number of former slaves holding public office was always a driving issue.
And oh, BTW, he wasn't even from the area!!!
The man neednt be stricken from the history books, and certainly its great that he repented later in life, but does he need to be celebrated for this late life act of contrition?
Personally I was a fan of naming it Speicher High.
Can someone try and explain to me why this is so difficult?
The city owns the building and should already have, in-hand, some sort of cost estimate to not only repair the damage, but also have some sort of semi-detailed maintenance plan and it's average running costs.
No basis on the numbers I'm using, but this seems too easy....
How much will it cost and how long will it take to repair the damage? 450 days and $3.2MM. OK, great. We'll adjust the lease accordingly. How about a 4 years at a $1/yr with and automatic 4 yr renewal if the repairs are complete and then 3 more 4 year options - as long as the building is maintained in fair condition.
It's the same potential time-frame (20 years) with a solid push on putting the building back into usable condition.
While we are discussing city owned properties that remain unused, what is the status of the St. John's Church building at Hemming Plaza?
Given the history of Geneaur (sp?) Hall and other such properties, this sounds like a nightmare in the making and an insider deal.
Remember the Horse arena out at Cecil Field? Please make sure ANY organization that is given a lease can show on paper (audited too) that they have the financial wherewithal to complete the renovations.
Quote from: vicupstate on June 21, 2013, 06:18:57 AM
While we are discussing city owned properties that remain unused, what is the status of the St. John's Church building at Hemming Plaza?
Given the history of Geneaur (sp?) Hall and other such properties, this sounds like a nightmare in the making and an insider deal.
Remember the Horse arena out at Cecil Field? Please make sure ANY organization that is given a lease can show on paper (audited too) that they have the financial wherewithal to complete the renovations.
and regular inspections and audits of work
and a revert-er clause if it doesn't follow its plan
Quote from: Demosthenes on June 20, 2013, 10:50:51 PM
Perhaps Forrest gets a bad rap, BUT between the Ft Pillow incident and being the Grandwizard, and just to mention that the school was named for a confederate general specifically because it flew in the face of the civil rights movement, I think renaming the school is an acceptable thing.
Having lived through that era, I don't think the Civil Rights Movement was even on the radar screen at the UDC or the City at that time. What WAS on the radar was the 'Civil War Centennial,' a massive tourism influx throughout the south and the chance for Florida to capture some of that Yankee green.
As for Fort Pillow, the Federal Investigators (Not Confederate Investigators) were never sure enough about the 'facts' to make any of the charges stick. There was not enough evidence to prove guilt. Certainly it was some sort of Cluster F**K. Refusal of a surrender demand, surrendering soldiers mixed with civilians shooting back at their pursuers, gun boats moving in under a flag of truce (illegal) and troops shifting to meet said gunboats under a flag of truce (also illegal), etc.
The modern historical community that has been rewriting the stories of the entire Antebellum Era and redefining the war and its leaders in the light of civil rights, political correctness and tolerance are equally guilty of gross misrepresentation. Witness the recent Lincoln Movie, and the rise of a 'Lincoln god-myth,' each author heaping more prose upon the works of the one before him. '
The Real Lincoln,' (also the name of an excellent book) when one goes back to what the original accounts tell us, was quite unlikable. He was in great fear of losing his reelection, and had he not used the Republican Party and the Army to arrest half of Maryland or Missouri, or
supported secession of counties to form new northern states, he would probably be found in the ash pit of forgotten leaders.
QuoteYes, the early KKK ALSO hated carpetbaggers and other northern scallowags, but growing concern over the large number of former slaves holding public office was always a driving issue.
That last item was apparently a large part of what turned Forrest against them.
QuoteAnd oh, BTW, he wasn't even from the area!!!
Neither was George Washington Carver, http://gwcarver.duvalschools.org though I'm completely happy to have a school named for him.
QuoteThe man neednt be stricken from the history books, and certainly its great that he repented later in life, but does he need to be celebrated for this late life act of contrition?
Forrest is celebrated primarily as a military genius. He originated the concept of a fast mobile strike force leaving nothing in its wake. Indeed such notables as General Patton and Field Marshall Erwin Rommel, had made extensive studies of Forrest.
QuotePersonally I was a fan of naming it Speicher High.
Something we could both agree on!
Tune in next week folks when we'll discuss the atomic bomb built by the Japanese near the end of WWII!
DEO VINDICE Y'ALL!
Quote from: Ocklawaha on June 20, 2013, 10:33:24 PM
Quote from: Tacachale on June 19, 2013, 09:59:53 AM
"Maybe" leaning "no". Besides the issues with the group's agenda, we shouldn't just give such an important structure over to any organization without seeing if there are other takers who can provide a better deal for the city and its property.
What would that 'agenda' be Tacachale? I believe you will find that the SCV accepts members of any race, color or creed. They do occasionally show up at Klan rally's but when they do it is to protest the Klan and the use of Confederate banners as a symbol of hate rather then one-time Southern nationalist dreams.
Regardless of the views of some misty-eyed white Southerners, the Confederacy and the SCV are hardly beloved by all Floridians or Southerners in general. The SCV goes beyond just being a Civil War history group, their reason for being is to promote the rosy "Lost Cause" image of the Confederacy and the use of Confederate symbols, which, like it or not, have been used for very unsavory purposes. This doesn't necessarily reflect on the local "camp", but the national organization has its share of politicized ugliness.
HOWEVER, the chief concern here whether this is the best deal for city property, considering we haven't even determined if other groups may be interested, and whether this group can actually pull off all those necessary repairs.
http://www.myspringfield.org/people-places/the-artery-at-the-armory
fantastic idea
Any idea on the funding for this?
All of this could be moot.
There is active legislation before the Jacksonville city council 2013-384 that would immediately give the armory to the Sons of Confederate Veterans for $1 a year for 10 years.
Good or Bad?
After the 6/25/13 Public Hearing the applicants told me that they could support 24/7 Public Access to Hogans Creek which is adjacent to the property. Good.
Councilwoman Kimberly Daniels the sponsor of the legislation is opposed to such an amendment for 24/7 Public Access. Bad
Quote from: Tacachale on June 21, 2013, 11:07:11 AM
Quote from: Ocklawaha on June 20, 2013, 10:33:24 PM
Quote from: Tacachale on June 19, 2013, 09:59:53 AM
"Maybe" leaning "no". Besides the issues with the group's agenda, we shouldn't just give such an important structure over to any organization without seeing if there are other takers who can provide a better deal for the city and its property.
What would that 'agenda' be Tacachale? I believe you will find that the SCV accepts members of any race, color or creed. They do occasionally show up at Klan rally's but when they do it is to protest the Klan and the use of Confederate banners as a symbol of hate rather then one-time Southern nationalist dreams.
Ocklawaha, I think you will find that the SCV only accepts males who are direct decedents of Confederate veterans as members. I don't think you find much diversity there. They have a very exclusive membership criteria.
Regardless of the views of some misty-eyed white Southerners, the Confederacy and the SCV are hardly beloved by all Floridians or Southerners in general. The SCV goes beyond just being a Civil War history group, their reason for being is to promote the rosy "Lost Cause" image of the Confederacy and the use of Confederate symbols, which, like it or not, have been used for very unsavory purposes. This doesn't necessarily reflect on the local "camp", but the national organization has its share of politicized ugliness.
HOWEVER, the chief concern here whether this is the best deal for city property, considering we haven't even determined if other groups may be interested, and whether this group can actually pull off all those necessary repairs.
Quote from: Ocklawaha on June 20, 2013, 10:33:24 PM
Quote from: Tacachale on June 19, 2013, 09:59:53 AM
"Maybe" leaning "no". Besides the issues with the group's agenda, we shouldn't just give such an important structure over to any organization without seeing if there are other takers who can provide a better deal for the city and its property.
What would that 'agenda' be Tacachale? I believe you will find that the SCV accepts members of any race, color or creed. They do occasionally show up at Klan rally's but when they do it is to protest the Klan and the use of Confederate banners as a symbol of hate rather then one-time Southern nationalist dreams.
Quote from: sheclown on June 20, 2013, 12:16:27 PM
The city is still struggling with racial issues. The only people who don't seem to think so are the ones who have lived here all of their lives.
There is a high school named after a KKK leader and it is predominately filled with children of color.
The issue is too sensitive for this -- maybe some day, but not today.
IMHO
THE KLAN CONNECTION:
During Reconstruction, Union Leagues were formed across the South after 1867 as working auxiliaries of the Republican Party. They mobilized freedmen to register to vote and to vote Republican. They discussed political issues, promoted civic projects, and mobilized workers opposed to certain employers. Most branches were segregated but there were a few that were racially integrated. The leaders of the all-black units were mostly urban blacks from the North, who had never been slaves.
Forrest described the original purpose of the Klan as "a protective political military organization... The members are sworn to recognize the government of the United States... Its objects originally were protection against Loyal Leagues and the Grand Army of the Republic, In addition to aiding Confederate widows and orphans of the war..." many members of the new group began to use force to oppose the extension of voting rights to blacks and to resist Reconstruction era measures for ending segregation. In 1869, Forrest, disagreeing with its increasingly violent tactics, ordered the Klan to disband, stating that it was "being perverted from its original honorable and patriotic purposes, becoming injurious instead of subservient to the public peace." Forrest testified before the Congressional investigation on Klan activities on June 27, 1871. Forrest denied membership. The committee also noted, "The natural tendency of all such organizations is to violence and crime; hence it was that General Forrest and other men of influence in the state, by the exercise of their moral power, induced them to disband.â€
A MAN CHANGED:
In these latter years of tribulation the prayers of Mary Montgomery Forrest were answered when Bedford turned to the religion which always had been so large a part of her life. On the streets of Memphis one day in 1875 Forrest met the Reverend Raliegh White, the same who as a lieutenant colonel had long commanded the old Fourteenth Tennessee Cavalry, and who now, as he told his general, was in Texas “preaching the word of God.†After a short conversation the two stepped into the quiet of the parlor of a bank near by, to kneel together in prayer. Not long afterward, on November 14, 1875, a calm Sabbath evening, the General walked into the Court Street Cumberland Presbyterian Church, Mrs. Forrest on his arm, and told the minister, the Reverend G. T. Stainback, that he had decided to accept the Christian faith. “There was no half way of doing things with Forrest,†the minister said afterward in a lecture, “and this is the way he entered the religious faith. … The news of his conversion had gone abroad and the church was filled the following Sunday morning. When I called for new members he folded his arms and deliberately walked down the aisle to the altar. I thought then that I had never seen such a magnificent man as General Forrest that day!†SOURCE, BOOK : “‘First with the Most’ Forrest†by Robert Selph Henry.
CIVIL RIGHTS AND EQUALITY:
A convention and BBQ was held by the Independent Order of Pole-Bearers Association (a precursor to the NAACP) at the fairgrounds of Memphis, five miles east of the city. An invitation to speak was conveyed to General Nathan Bedford Forrest, one of the city's most prominent citizens, and one of the foremost cavalry commanders in the late War Between the States. This was the first invitation granted to a white man to speak at this gathering. The invitation's purpose, one of the leaders said, was to extend peace, joy, and union, and following a brief welcoming address a Miss Lou Lewis, daughter of an officer of the Pole-Bearers, brought forward flowers and assurances that she conveyed them as a token of good will. After Miss Lewis handed him the flowers, General Forrest responded with a short speech that, in the contemporary pages of the Memphis Appeal, evinces Forrest's racial open-mindedness that seemed to have been growing in him.
“Ladies and Gentlemen I accept the flowers as a memento of reconciliation between the white and colored races of the southern states. I accept it more particularly as it comes from a colored lady, for if there is any one on God's earth who loves the ladies I believe it is myself. ( Immense applause and laughter.) I came here with the jeers of some white people, who think that I am doing wrong. I believe I can exert some influence, and do much to assist the people in strengthening fraternal relations, and shall do all in my power to elevate every man to depress none. (Applause.) I want to elevate you to take positions in law offices, in stores, on farms, and wherever you are capable of going. I have not said anything about politics today. I don't propose to say anything about politics. You have a right to elect whom you please; vote for the man you think best, and I think, when that is done, you and I are freemen. Do as you consider right and honest in electing men for office. I did not come here to make you a long speech, although invited to do so by you. I am not much of a speaker, and my business prevented me from preparing myself. I came to meet you as friends, and welcome you to the white people. I want you to come nearer to us. When I can serve you I will do so. We have but one flag, one country; let us stand together. We may differ in color, but not in sentiment Many things have been said about me which are wrong, and which white and black persons here, who stood by me through the war, can contradict. Go to work, be industrious, live honestly and act truly, and when you are oppressed I'll come to your relief. I thank you, ladies and gentlemen, for this opportunity you have afforded me to be with you, and to assure you that I am with you in heart and in hand. (Prolonged applause.)â€
Whereupon N. B. Forrest again thanked Miss Lewis for the bouquet and then gave her a kiss on the cheek. Such a kiss was unheard of in the society of those days, in 1875, but it showed a token of respect and friendship between the general and the black community and did much to promote harmony among the citizens of Memphis.
I believe if we are really to standup for education and tolerance we should be bold enough to celebrate not just the Confederacy, but how many of its former leaders paved a way to a new and accepting south. It would be very cool if the high school, the SCV and historical associations of all colors could band together to publish or produce a treatise on reconciliation and truth as it related to Forrest.