JaxPort is expanding, but no one is stepping up to the plate to build a $40 to $60 million railyard needed to handle the goods coming in from the new terminals.
QuoteSome eyes are turning to CSX, but there's only one rail line to Blount Island. The question now: Who could pay for adding more track?
By DAVID HUNT, The Times-Union
We're talking big rigs, thousands of them scattered along Heckscher Drive, Florida 9A and the side roads.
One estimate calls for almost 8,500 trucks a day - one every 10 seconds - by 2020 as container traffic at Jacksonville's deepwater ports triples.
It's a cargo boom waiting to happen. The Jacksonville Port Authority anticipates 50,000 jobs and a $3 billion increase in economic impact.
But there will be side effects.
Plans are taking shape to spend millions strengthening the roads, but all signs point to, and by some opinions dictate, the need for rail to keep the containers moving.
And a lone CSX line running through Blount Island won't be enough.
Officials with JaxPort and CSX Transportation say the area needs an intermodal container facility, a rail yard designated to arrange and move port cargo.
The problem is, building such a terminal carries a price tag in the tens of millions. Right now, nobody is stepping up with the money.
The cost may seem like a drop in the bucket to CSX, a railroad that spent $1.7 billion on capital projects last year. Still, CEO Michael Ward said the company is not planning to pay. Part of the issue, he said, is that about 60 percent of those funds are needed just to keep up the tracks, a cost that's swelled with global demand for steel.
"We operate in 23 states. If you want to count drops in the bucket, we have a lot of drops in the bucket," Ward said. "It's really port infrastructure. It's like a pier. The shipping companies don't build that. Our responsibility is that we have locomotives to haul it away and cars to take it."
full article: http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/032408/bus_260438849.shtml
Well if the city fronts the coin wouldn't they also own the multimodal and the new track? Would the city then charge the rail companies to use the rail? Sounds to me like CSX would stand to make big bucks on something like this. They would continue to be the primary carrier of goods into and out of the port and could charge others to use their lines and multimodal center. Is that how it would work Ock?
CSX owns the only line going into Blount Island and they already have a yard on the Westside. If the city does not play by CSX's rule, they would have to pay to build a second line to connect to NS (assuming NS pays for a yard at the port). Once the costs of ROW and building a bridge across the Trout River are included, the city would probably come out cheaper building the yard themselves and connecting to the CSX line.
I wonder could this mean that CSX does not expect a windfall of profits and increased rail traffic from the port expansion? In the past CSX has been known to invest in rail infrastructure for good profitable customers. So either CSX feels like their Westside yard can handle the port's expansion or they're just playing hard ball with the city.
Sounds like hardball to me.
Do you think a smaller player would be willing to build the yard, say FEC?
Probably the latter, the hard ball. Something will need to be done. I won't be here after July, but I want the best for the city, and this is one of them. CSX can afford it, if not, just buy the naming rights to the stadium and call it CSX Field.
Quote from: Jason on March 24, 2008, 09:10:50 AM
Sounds like hardball to me.
Do you think a smaller player would be willing to build the yard, say FEC?
My question would be, why would FEC build a yard that would connect to CSX's line? The same would apply for NS. In any event, something would have to be worked out with CSX.
The first question that comes to mind is "what is a yard?" at least in terms of what Jax Port says they need.
If it's many tracks for the loading and unloading of containers then relax, it's in the prints for each of the new dockside terminals themselves. If it's a big place to break down the traffic that came off/or onto those ships then we have several, Export (CSX near Talleyrand), Moncrief (CSX in Moncrief), Simpson (NS in Grand Crossing) as well as the FEC's massive Bowden in the Southside or the CSX intermodal in the far west which stretches along I-295 from Beaver Street to US 1 North.
Seems to me the real fuss is over getting a new access line into the terminals on Hecksher. We want CSX the only carrier in that section to build a new line so the customers will have a "choice" which yard to send their traffic to.... Sort of like you shopping at Firestone for Goodyear tires and expecting them to hand walk you over to Goodyear after a nice sales job...HA! The box our port is in is OUR doing and WE need to be the ones to get it out of that box. This could be done by the City taking over the former CSX lines and perhaps some of the NS too from Westside or Springfield, over the Trout and over to the Terminals. Then we'd have the options of adding extra tracks, another Trout bridge (which with commuter rail might be a need the State has a track record of funding), or a sorting facility.
Just remember, every second those cars sit and wait to be moved into strings, this group for NS to Atlanta, that group for CSX Birmingham or whatever, they are DEAD and not making money. Yards are thus bad and avoided at all costs. The ideal is a ship docks with 8,000 containers for Atlanta, They decide to use NS for example (straight shot), since all are going to Atlanta, the train can be loaded at dockside, blocked in sections for parts of Atlanta, and sent on it's way.
Failing our purchase of a complete nutral access, (which we have a Talleyrand), would mean the other railroads would have to build expensive "tap lines". The only logical route for NS would be somewhere from Hecksher, just south of JIA and around to the far northwest beyond Grand Crossing. We need to bite the bullet on this or we'll be a port captive to the wishes of CSX...and how do you do this without pissing off the Big Dog downtown?
Ocklawaha
So, you're saying the answer is for JaxPort/COJ/JTA to purchase the CSX line/ROW from the Port all the way down to Springfield Yard? Combined with relaying track on the S-Line, that would connect both port terminals to CSX, FEC and NS and open the door for passengar rail between downtown, the airport and Amelia Island.
As I suggested back then, warehousing will take care of itself. If there's money to be made, the private sector will pick up the slack. However, the city and JTA will be on the hook to make sure the proper infrastructure is in place. One answer could be the city paying to take over CSX's rail line from Springfield to Blount Island and having a short line operator move freight between the port terminals and CSX, FEC, and NS lines. Doing such could kill two birds (traditional or Austin style commuter rail/enhanced freight rail service for the port) with one stone.
Its only a benefit for the city if they are able to stay up to date and ahead of the curve with regards expansions and renovations. Does the city have that capability or that forsight?
QuoteTrue, lake. Although it was also suggested that the rail would take care of itself as well.
From what I've read so far, the problem is:
A. It takes 3 days to give freight by rail from the ships to CSX's Westside yard.
B. It takes 20 minutes to move freight by truck from port to Westside yards.
C. By 2020, an additional 2,470 trucks a day could be on our roads if they can't figure out how to get freight to the Westside rail yards.
The answer is:
A. Build an on-site railyard to arrange and move port cargo, as opposed to this taking place at existing Westside yards. The problem with this is JaxPort does not want/can not afford to pay for its own $40 million personal railyard.
With that said, it seems like the solution needs to involve the city, JaxPort and JTA, in addition to CSX, if they want CSX to remain the only rail service to Blount Island. So the problem isn't a private sector one (like warehouses) its a public sector one (we want our own railyard so the port can be more attractive for shipping).
I don't know if CSX would be willing to sell, but if I'm the city, I'd try to buy their line and build my own intermodal center. While it would cost a pretty penny, it gets the freight on tracks (instead of city roads) that could connect to three rail companies, as opposed to one (that's better for the port and takes more trucks off the road than rail only connecting with CSX would). It also gives the city/JTA free reign for a variety of passenger rail choices through the Northside, without worrying about CSX telling you what time passenger trains could use the tracks. If our local entities pooled their resources together for a joint solution, the solution would be cheaper than each sector trying to solve their individual problems on their own.
Btw, the paper has a great map showing the additional traffic that could take over Hecksher, I-95, I-295 and 9A.
Quote from: stephendare on March 24, 2008, 12:03:02 PMTheres no doubt that the problem needs solved if we want to expand the port. Personally I would like to see the solution become a revenue producer for the city itself as adopted by most other port towns.
If the city owned the tracks, revenue could come from a short line leasing rights to provide service to the port and nearby industrial warehouses and factories. Revenue could also come from ticket sales from commuter rail riders between Amelia Island, the airport and downtown. If the line is not publicly owned, then there won't be a direct revenue source, other than the port being here itself.
QuoteExactly. As Kevin pointed out. That rail spur could be easily built by the city and provide income.
There's no reason to build a new spur, there's already one there. They need to build a railyard at the port to sort out cargo. By buying the CSX line through the Northside (suggested here), the Blount Island terminal would then be directly connected to FEC, NS and CSX. If the line isn't purchased, then Blount Island still is only served by one rail company and the additional sources of revenue generators mentioned above can't happen.
QuoteAlso there is the problem of the highway usage from the port to 95 for direct trucking.
Our interstates are the streets that would be best for additional truck traffic. However, the problem they are talking (at least in the article) about involves Hecksher Drive, not MLK.
QuoteRight now MLK is the preferred and most direct route. It should be a commercial toll way.
No way. MLK is also the Northside's main crosstown route through town. I'd throw tolls up at the county line before bringing them back to the core.
The new Matsui and Hajin terminals will not affect MLK. They are both located along Heckscher Drive. Their trucks will be using Heckscher, 9A, I-295 and I-95.
Quote from: stephendare on March 24, 2008, 01:12:13 PM
Lake you do this by making trucks pull over into a lane for commercial traffic.
The other widespread method is to allow the various companies to pre purchase tolls in order to bypass the toll lane. The trucks are then marked or stickered to signify access.
And then you will watch every major shipping company who is looking to have a presence in Jacksonville go up the road to Savannah.
Quote from: stephendare on March 24, 2008, 01:12:13 PM
The trucks are using MLK now, and they are going to quintuple their usage of the roadway when matsui opens.Quote
I was going to ask the same thing that lake did - both Mitsui and Hanjin are at Heckscher and 9A. If anything, I'd be concerned about the highway infrastructure on Heckscher between Blount Island and I-95
Miami's are currently being Studied (they don't have any toll Truckways now - they do have regular toll roads for all vehicles): http://www.reason.org/ps365_miami_truckways.pdf
Savannah doesn't have any right now, but they are considering adding one by 2030: http://www.tollroadsnews.com/node/1155
I couln't find anything about Charleston either way, but this is the first I've heard of it.
I still don't get what you accomplish by penalizing the transportation industry. Don't say money for other things, because if you are looking for transit money, I'd put a toll on at JTB, I95 and US1 from St Johns County, and 17 and Blanding from OP. You'd probably raise just as much, and not piss off the businesses.
Quote from: stephendare on March 24, 2008, 01:51:01 PM
The Savannah Article is three years old.
And since it's not quite 2030, I thought it would apply.
But that's not the point. If you want to levy a new tax, why would you do it on a Duval County business? Why not do it on all the people who live across the county line, but beat the crap out of our roads?
No to mention, Jacksonville doesn't have very many major industries (call centers don't count). Why would you want to tax the crap out of them?
Quote from: stephendare on March 24, 2008, 01:58:52 PM
Savannah Port Authority just verified that they are using this idea man.
Okay, they are going forward with it. I'll take your word for it. Detroit built a one-way people mover. Should we do the same?
Quote from: stephendare on March 24, 2008, 01:58:52 PMWhy shouldnt the people who actually use the road (and damage it through wear and tear) to make money pay for it?
I agree - so let's make every road a toll road.
I don't think Jax is ready for commercial tolls and its a mute point, since the extra truck traffic will use Heckscher, not MLK. MLK does not back up, won't anytime soon (port expansions are on Heckscher) and we have the room that Miami doesn't for railyards (they should have kept FEC's old Buena Vista yard).
Quote from: stephendare on March 24, 2008, 02:05:41 PMAnd did you know that Commercial Trucking Companies use the roads to make a profit?
So does UPS. Should we enact tolls on them as well?
Quote from: stephendare on March 24, 2008, 02:09:44 PMHowever. Commercial Toll Roads are hardly a novelty in the world.
On this point, I completely agree.
sounds like a good way for the highway lobby to build some more roads at the expense of the environment.
Proposed Savannah Northwest Expressway route
(http://srta-valuepricing.net/nw_toll/northwesttollway.jpg)
Quote from: stephendare on March 24, 2008, 02:11:53 PM
QuoteI don't think Jax is ready for commercial tolls and its a mute point, since the extra truck traffic will use Heckscher, not MLK. MLK does not back up, won't anytime soon (port expansions are on Heckscher) and we have the room that Miami doesn't for railyards (they should have kept FEC's old Buena Vista yard).
What data are you using for this claim?
The proposed terminal locations are on Heckscher, north of the Trout River. Maps and aerials indicate the MLK is south of the Trout River. The illustration in today's TU, provided by the MPO shows the roads expected to see increases in truck traffic.
Trucks per day in 2020, according to First Coast MPO & FDOTSR 9A: 2,985 (without railyard), 2,210 (with railyard)
I-295: 5,060 (without railyard), 3,060 (with railyard)
Heckscher Drive: 5,450 (without railyard), 3,850 (with railyard)
I-95: 250 (without railyard), 100 (with railyard)
QuoteSeriously?
Have you ever seen MLK at night?
Yes, I use it quite frequently (around three to four times a week) and have never been stopped by truck traffic, especially at night.
QuoteIts nothing BUT commercial freight. It backs up in both lanes for the south and north exits to 95.
I normally use it from the Matthews Bridge to Main Street, the section closet to the Tallyrand terminals. This portion is free sailing. Could the back up you're noticing be from those looking to avoid I-95 construction to the north and south of that interchange?
Tallyrand is the smallest terminal. The major logistics problem is centered around Heckscher, where the larger terminals are and the new terminals will be going.
Quote from: stephendare on March 24, 2008, 02:32:21 PM
well....'logistics' by definition would include the ports as a whole.
We really have to start thinking on a regional basis.
I agree. I just disagree that we need to tax trucks using MLK.
QuoteAnd there is really a lot that some education and new ideas could do for us.
For example, should the decisions about warehousing be made by the same old junkers that have done it for decades or should the requirements for warehousing projects be set by educated people with an eye to environmental impact and efficient design.
How do you know that this does not happen? There's a warehousing boom going on right now in the Northside being fueled by the private sector, many of which are being designed by industry specialist. I don't think the city or its residents need to take time in telling companies how to design their warehouses. Lets stick to lighting streets, cleaning the river and lowering the murder rate.
QuoteTraffic by mayhem or a central multi modal conductor who directs large influxes of shipments across three different transportation platforms?
Its all logistics baby.
If they build their own intermodal terminal and purchase the CSX line, you'll have the multi modal conductor without placing tolls on MLK and penalizing the companies operating in that area.
QuoteFailing our purchase of a complete nutral access, (which we have a Talleyrand), would mean the other railroads would have to build expensive "tap lines". The only logical route for NS would be somewhere from Hecksher, just south of JIA and around to the far northwest beyond Grand Crossing. We need to bite the bullet on this or we'll be a port captive to the wishes of CSX...and how do you do this without pissing off the Big Dog downtown?
Tap lines are unfeasible because the ROW is not there and it would cost a few arms, lungs and legs (not even mentioning the environment issues you'll face crossing hundreds of thousands of acres of wetlands) to assemble ROW stretching from Callahan to Blount Island. One thing Big Dogs love is food. Our Big Dog's refrigerator is filled with green. If you don't want to piss him off, offer to exchange his line for green dollar bills.
Quote from: stephendare on March 24, 2008, 02:50:09 PM
QuoteHow do you know that this does not happen? There's a warehousing boom going on right now in the Northside being fueled by the private sector, many of which are being designed by industry specialist. I don't think the city or its residents need to take time in telling companies how to design their warehouses. Lets stick to lighting streets, cleaning the river and lowering the murder rate.
well ok Lake.
Find a significant green warehousing development. Let me know when you find it.
keep this in mind before you answer: http://www.news4jax.com/news/15621995/detail.html
I don't know what city ash sites have to do with private industrial development, but "green warehousing" is already becoming an industry trend:
http://www.areadevelopment.com/specialPub/aug06/greenbuilding.shtml
There's nothing that the City of Jacksonville can do that the private sector isn't already finding ways to implement. We're still blushing over the SJTC and BRT, when both of these things have been around for decades. We shouldn't expect COJ to have the answers (or have to pay) for everything, but they should get a grip over the things they are supposed to (maintaining parks, sewage systems, etc.).
From a mass transit point of view, buying the line makes a lot of since. JTA/COJ/JaxPort would be in charge of making their own schedule on the tracks for both passenger and freight service. In this case, all freight service leaving Blount Island could be scheduled to run at night, leaving the same line open for local passenger mass transit during the day. The same deal that unlocks the port's chastity belt could be used to unlock JTA's self imposed death sentence with the FTA.
San Diego Sprinter
(http://www.latimes.com/media/photo/2007-12/34483629.jpg)
Austin Capital Metrorail
(http://www.michaelmcdaniel.com/mm_blog/uploaded_images/Rail_austin2-746060.jpg)
New Jersey RiverLine
(http://www.lightrailnow.org/images/snj-lry-openday-rural-appr-pennsauken-sb-mar2004x_b-vogel.jpg)
Ottawa O-Train
(http://railfan45.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/talenton_talentarrivecarling.jpg)
All of the above are commuter rail systems that run on the same tracks as regularly scheduled freight trains. The common link between these systems is the local municipality or transit authority owns the rail lines, enabling them to control the scheduling. Freight service on the lines also help serve as a dedicated revenue source for mass transit operations & maintenance.
Would limiting the freight companies schedule cost them as much as tolling them?
Can't imagine why. The rail line in New Jersey is pretty busy (moreso than our spur) and the companies operating along that corridor haven't been negatively impacted. Ock will have a better answer, but the port would not stimulate enough traffic to warrant freight running on an hourly basis. With a intermodal yard on site, trains would be assembled at the port and be able to run when they're ready to go, without having to stop at the Westside yards. The current three day wait to get crosstown to the current yards would be eliminated under this scenerio.
you want a local example...here you go...
Baker County is interested in economic development in the form of being an "inland port"....they have proposals from several developers for significant warehousing facilities....and the County is looking at additions to their comp. plan and land development codes that will encourage/require green building practices.
Quote from: stephendare on March 24, 2008, 04:18:49 PM
Quotedon't know what city ash sites have to do with private industrial development, but "green warehousing" is already becoming an industry trend:
http://www.areadevelopment.com/specialPub/aug06/greenbuilding.shtml
There's nothing that the City of Jacksonville can do that the private sector isn't already finding ways to implement. We're still blushing over the SJTC and BRT, when both of these things have been around for decades. We shouldn't expect COJ to have the answers (or have to pay) for everything, but they should get a grip over the things they are supposed to (maintaining parks, sewage systems, etc.).
obviously there is green warehousing or I wouldnt have mentioned it. But I asked you to find a Jacksonville example in that warehousing boom on the northside you were talking about.
Any luck?
You didn't ask for a local example:
Quotewell ok Lake.
Find a significant green warehousing development. Let me know when you find it.
keep this in mind before you answer: http://www.news4jax.com/news/15621995/detail.html
tufsu1 provided one however. As I said earlier, this is something best left to the private sector. The city is already stretched thin. We shouldn't expect the city to lead all forms of private development.
QuoteThe simple answer to that is hell yes.
Time, literally, is money. Great question Jason.
Do you have any proof that the freight companies on the examples above being limited? Do we even know how often trains use the CSX track in the Northside on a daily basis? If it takes 3 days to get freight across town to the Westside yards, that tells me CSX isn't sending as many trains per day as they do down the A-line or the line paralleling Beaver Street.
As far as the potential of killing two birds with one stone, in addition to having ultimate control of scheduling, owning the ROW sets the city and JTA up to add additional parallel track, when the traffic increases to the point of where its warranted.
Right. I think the original answers and solutions on the first two pages of this thread make the most sense.
JaxPort is going to have to find a way to fund construction for their own intermodal terminal, as opposed to relying on CSX to pay for something that helps increase their competitor's business.
I said this earlier, but in my opinion, the best thing the Port/City/JTA could do is:
A. Buy the CSX line from Blount Island, at least to the Springfield yard.
B. Relay the S-Line Track from the Springfield yard to the Prime Osborn.
C. Lease line to short line operator.
D. Build an intermodal yard for the port and its new terminals off Heckscher Drive.
A,B,C & D eliminates the need to truck goods to the Westside (takes truck traffic off our interstates/eliminates goods waiting for three days to reach Westside yards) and gives the port direct access to FEC, CSX and NS (a port with options is better than one without them). The lease with a short line operator also give them a dedicated revenue source to help with the expenses for making such a move. Logistically, this clears up a huge mess and opens the door for mass transit on the same lines, thus potentially killing two birds with one stone.
QuoteIt would relieve SOME of the traffic, but not all. Much of the freightage makes straight for the interstate.
There's no solution totally eliminating trucking nor should there be. However, connecting Blount Island with multiple rail carries would eliminate a large portion of it, because rail would be set up to be a viable and efficient alternative.
QuoteI would also add commercial tolls for all companies using trucking as their delivery method.
Wouldn't the majority of local companies use trucking as their delivery method? Would a commercial toll penalize our local companies, giving out of town companies the competitive edge by using rail to ship longer distances? Shouldn't we make doing business in Jacksonville easier, as opposed to tossing another obstacle (tax) at them?
What about Owens Corning, Jefferson Smurfit, North Florida Shipyards, the cement terminals, etc? Would they have to pay this tax too, because they are located on Tallyrand? How about Jax Zoo and other businesses located on Heckscher like Atlantic Marine? What about companies located at Cecil that ship port delivered goods to their Westside facility, then send out trucks across the city/state from those distribution hubs? Imposing an extra layer of taxes on port users sounds like a pitiful way to encourage additional businesses to use the port, when competitors like Brunswick are just a stone's throw away and could use our self imposed taxing schemes against us during competitions to recruit companies.
QuoteAdditionally, most of the traffic that heads to 95 north isnt local anyways.
???
Maybe its just me, but I'm rarely in favor of imposing additional taxes on anyone, shipping companies included. Most are already struggling. There's little need to make it worse.
Quote from: stephendare on March 24, 2008, 10:32:28 PM
did you check to see if brunswick employs commercial tolls?
No. If they do, then we ought to use it against them to recruit their companies. Not follow suit.
Again, I don't see why we need commercial tolls to have proper service and logistics. There's other options out there. Taxing your local businesses to use the roads they already pay taxes for seems like a last gasp solution.
No. Exhausting all other funding mechanisms and possibilites first would make sense to me. You don't want to penalize companies for something they already pay taxes for before moving forward with something like that.
For example, how much money is ultimately needed for the port's wish list? Could the port bring in money by building their own on-site distribution centers or by leasing available land to developers who could? Could the port generate income by going after companies to locate and use its rail lines (assuming they purchased the CSX track serving Blount Island). Could they make money of transit oriented developments that would spring up around rail stations if passenger rail were also allowed to use the track? Are there public/private relationships out there worth exploring before leveling new taxes? Is there federal money available for deepening the harbor? Could a combination of all the above bring in a decent amount of revenue to fund improvements and attract businesses?
Imo, all of these options would need to be explored before outright penalizing your users.
I'd also add building toll booths at the county line to this before I would tax the industry. Remember, the people who would pay this tax couldn't vote you out of office. :)
The talk of another rail "yard" is scary to the entire industry, even those that visit here. As I said the only thing rail yards are good for is breaking down, and pre-blocking trains for destinations. Much like the Postal Servies "Delivery sequence Mail". The the later case, the carrier no long case up or put up their mail for your address, it is all done by optical readers and computer machines and comes to them ready for the street. The Railroad equal to this is FEC's Bowden Yard, the trains are not just blocked for South Florida Cities, but by Industry, IN ORDER. The clock ticks very fast, they have 24-48 hours to take a CSX car, get it south, turn it and get it home. They developed the SFT concept, SHORT-FAST-TRAIN, and every time there is XX number of cars to roll, they're gone. It was so successful, they were able to pull in NS as a partner and FEC is buying into NS mainline to Atlanta, expanding capacity, signals, sidings etc... NS has been forced by their number one partner to play this speed game too and now they cross the River with their big road diesels having done the blocking in MACON, and they DON'T stop in Bowden, and haul A.. for Miami.
The CSX on the other hand still uses Moncrief to break down in delivery sequence everything that comes into Jax. in the JAX blocks. Most of the South Eastern CSX traffic is sorted at Waycross, in a huge gravity fed yard known as a "Hump Yard". Now the 3 day from Hecksher to Westside sound like a truckers fantasy. Frankly, I've follow freight out of the port and gone right to Grand Crossing within an hour or so. The secret is, how long will it be hung at Moncrief before it gets on the speedways North and South.
So what do we NEED to make the port attractive to steamship lines? We need rail access with CHOICE. Not more dwell times, not yards, not anything that would cause the cargo to tarry. Many is not most ships that come in will have containers consigned to certain Cities. Rail and shipping lines know, blocking is important. So if a ship of goods for South Florida makes it into our port today, and it's sent by rail what happens? 3 days to Moncrief? While I doubt the transit time, I don't doubt the yard time. SUCKS! Fix it with ANOTHER YARD, no way. Send it to FEC? Fat chance CSX would rush the block of cars (remember the whole ship came off for South Florida) down to Grand Crossing, to Union Station and over the bridge... FEC could do it SAME DAY, but how to get FEC to the dock?
Did y'all know that NS is as big as CSX? Did you know they are often more profitable? Toss in FEC the mighty mini, and you have a mega-force in Florida with NS. Herein lays some of the trouble. We need REAL multi line, Terminal railroad access. There is no other answer short of FEC and NS blowing a line through the City to reach the port together. There is no need for this when the COJ already owns the KEYS and CSX owns the underused track.
How bad will it be? based on my numbers, when both terminals are up and running we could be sending out 21 trains a day of 100 cars. Thats each way, 42 emptys the other way. Me thinks we'll miss that old Atlantic Coast Line bridge north of USG at the mouth of the Trout River... BTW, the track still reaches within feet of the river.
Ocklawaha
From how I take it, instead of the port building its own yard, Ock wantst the port to either:
A. Buy the CSX line through the Northside, giving the port direct access to all three railroads and their yards.
B. FEC & NS, by miles of ROW and build a new rail line going into Blount Island and the new terminals.
Imo, "Option B" is unrealistic because its the most expensive option, ROW is not there and cutting a blazing path of new rail ROW through the environmentally sensitive Northside isn't going to fly over well. Another option would be to build the old Trout River bridge back for the rail line that run near Gate's plant off of Heckscher. However, that's CSX track & ROW, so it would still have to be purchased from them.
We ought to discuss this at tonight's meeting. I bet if we all sat down with a map and discussed these issues in person, we could have a viable solution cooked up by the end of the night.
Quote from: stephendare on March 24, 2008, 11:09:52 PM
I hope Im not always penalizing my customers by charging them for the alfredo.
You would be penalizing your customers if you were charging them to use Main Street to get to your establishment or admission to come in, on top of the price for your product. That's essentially what you're promoting when you mention charging commercial tolls on MLK to get to Tallyrand, which again isn't the site with the mega logistics problem.
This is a complete turn around. You don't want parking meters downtown to charge downtown customers, but you want additional commercial tolls to charge port users?
You're alfredo may be good, but if you're going to charge me to use the street to get to your place, I'll find somewhere else to eat.
I'm confused. Sounds like you're now talking about two different things. Are you or are you not talking about putting commercial tolls on MLK Parkway for port users?
So Jacksonville has the only port in the country not charging commercial tolls on public streets?
Why only charge port related businesses? Why stop there? Why not charge every company in town that uses trucks or makes money by driving?
By the way, how much are the commercial tolls at nearby ports like Brunswick, Fernandina Beach and Tampa? Plus, if there is a charge, why would that money go to the port? Shouldn't it go to whoever maintains the public streets?
QuoteBTW. Kevin has invited us to a tour of the ports from his perspective.
I'll take him up on that offer. Sounds interesting.
There's a ready made answer for this tax on truckers..."This truck pays $9,000 dollars a year in highway taxes". End of argument. The highway lobby would completely quash any politico that made a coup on that holy cow.
Railroads? Oh yeah, them too... plus special taxes, highway tax, real estate tax, School district assesments, and uh, build and maintain your own steel highway...
It will happen when monkeys fly out of my nether reigons... or was that in 1968?
Ocklawaha
Quote from: thelakelander on March 25, 2008, 10:49:32 AM
So Jacksonville has the only port in the country not charging commercial tolls on public streets?
Why only charge port related businesses? Why stop there? Why not charge every company in town that uses trucks or makes money by driving?
By the way, how much are the commercial tolls at nearby ports like Brunswick, Fernandina Beach and Tampa? Plus, if there is a charge, why would that money go to the port? Shouldn't it go to whoever maintains the public streets?
Stephen, did you ever find out how much the commercial tolls on nearby streets are at these ports and what the money collected is used for?
What i'm saying is that both the rail and the truck industry feel they are taxed to the max. Any politician that added another fee would be the target for a massive and well financed smear campaign. Before adding to the carriers charges, they might consider a leap from the top of the Dames Point Bridge.
Did you know that already a carload of bread from San Francisco to Chicago, costs 4 times what the bread is worth? Who do you think pays for it in the end?
Ocklawaha
those with perfect vision take 2 steps back to read this, because I can't see the damn stuff...
Its been mentioned several times in this discussion. The CSX line serving the Northside and Blount Island needs to be purchased by JaxPort, JTA and COJ, along with the rebuilding of the S-Line. This will allow all port terminals to have direct access to three major railroad companies and their railyards (not just CSX), commuter/DMU rail that JTA can schedule without inteferring with private freight railroads and a dedicated source of revenue through leasing the line to a short line operator to serve industries along the route.
This solution takes a ton of trucks off the highways, improves mass transit options, enhances the port's marketability and provides a long term source of income for the city. We'll feature a front page article on this, sometime next week.
Matsui's first ship pulled in this evening. I watched it from the office here and good lord is that a huge ship. It took it's sweet old time navigating our winding river. Mayor Peyton actually greeted the ship as it pulled in as well. A new era in JAXPORT officially began today!
Here are photos of the MOL Vision which is the ship that came in tonight:
(http://images.vesseltracker.com/images/vessels/hires/76142.jpg)
(http://images.vesseltracker.com/images/vessels/hires/76143.jpg)
Happy Meal Toys! Are we filling it back up with exports?
Here is the route. Apparently it is operated by APL.
(http://media.metrojacksonville.com/images/sells_mkt_tp_esxeb.png)
There was also a rather large red APL ship that came in the afternoon yesterday.
How long does it take to dock and unload one of those things?
I'm sorry but you lost me with this statement:
"Did you know that already a carload of bread from San Francisco to Chicago, costs 4 times what the bread is worth? Who do you think pays for it in the end?"
If the cost of transport is worth 4 time what the bread is worth, ummmmmmmm what does that mean. Are you saying that the cost of transport is 80% of the cost of the bread? So if the loaf of bread is 1 dollar, 80 cents of the cost is transportation? Sorry but I just don't think thats right.