Metro Jacksonville

QuoteThe St. Augustine City Commission voted 4-1 in favor of a resolution Monday that expressed support of a proposed commuter train service route in St. Johns County.

full article: http://staugustine.com/news/local-news/2013-05-13/city-expresses-support-commuter-rail-service#.UZJT4rVJ7xQ

Jacksonville quickly responded "what's commuter rail?".

Quote from: JeffreyS on May 14, 2013, 11:57:20 AM
Jacksonville quickly responded "what's commuter rail?".

I literally "LOL"ed when I read that.

Sad but true.

you mean it's not light rail???

I cant tell if reading the comments section for st aug makes me feel better about jax or worse overall for humanity.

Quote from: fsujax on May 14, 2013, 12:20:18 PM
you mean it's not light rail???

And it isn't BRT either.

Hey, at least a local government mentioned commuter rail in a favorable manner.  That's more progress than we have seen in a long time.  Cheers for the St. Augustine City Commission!

Quote from: JeffreyS on May 14, 2013, 11:57:20 AM
Jacksonville quickly responded "what's commuter rail?".

to be fair, some City Council members are up to speed on the study

Quote from: tufsu1 on May 14, 2013, 10:26:34 PM

Quote from: JeffreyS on May 14, 2013, 11:57:20 AM
Jacksonville quickly responded "what's commuter rail?".

to be fair, some City Council members are up to speed on the study

I find our transit system less than fair.

Quote from: fsujax on May 14, 2013, 12:20:18 PM
you mean it's not light rail???

I was thinking more like "High Speed - Heavy - Monorail - Streetcar - Amtrak Rail."

Regional Transportation Commission would fast-track commuter rail (http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2013/05/14/regional-transportation-commission.html)

QuoteCommuter rail between Jacksonville and area cities like St. Augustine could speed up, now that a bill to create a regional transportation commission for Northeast Florida is on the governor’s desk.

The  St. Augustine City Commission voted Monday night in favor of such a commuter service through St. Johns County, which was recommended in a 2009 study.

But the four years between the study and this week’s vote has produced some additional in-depth planning and little beyond that.

“One of the challenges we have faced is that the Jacksonville Transportation Authority is not regional,” said Brad Thoburn, vice president of long-range planning, capital programs and system development for the agency. “Not having a regional transportation commission has made this a challenge. When we see an issue like this, it reiterates the need for one.”

The 2009 study, performed by the North Florida Transportation Planning Organization with participation from JTA, identified the three most effective routes for commuter rail. They were between Jacksonville and St. Augustine, Jacksonville and Green Cove Springs and Jacksonville and Yulee.

More studying since then determined the two southern routes had the highest priority, Thoburn said.
“When you look at connecting population centers and centers of activity, these are some very high-growth areas,” Thoburn said. “You can only expand roads so much.”

The next step is to see whether local governments, transportation agencies and the public support commuter rail along proposed corridors. St. Augustine is a stakeholder for the Southeast route, but St. Johns County will also have to weigh in.

Quote from: Dog Walker on May 14, 2013, 01:23:49 PM
Hey, at least a local government mentioned commuter rail in a favorable manner.  That's more progress than we have seen in a long time.  Cheers for the St. Augustine City Commission!

+1

Does anyone have a link to that 2009 study or know what the stops would be? Would it go to the historic area of St. Augustine, perhaps off that rail line that runs along US 1/Ponce de Leon?

Of course, I'm selfishly asking, as I work in the historic part of St. Augustine and live in urban Jacksonville, and I would take that all the time if so.

(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-5959-jta-final-station03.png)

While I'm all for regional planning and transportation linkages, I am not a proponent of this at this time.

Having no Buckman Bridge equivalent really cuts that design at the knees. No one who takes the Buckman Bridge to work is going to give that design a 2nd look if they're forced to go all the way to downtown to switch trains.

I doubt ridership numbers would be anywhere near high enough to justify a bridge crossing. A Skyway will TOD at all of its existing stations will generate more ridership than some of the proposed corridors. How about an east/west express bus to connect the lines? That way, one would not have to go downtown to get from point A to B.

If its getting support now I guess we can look for it to be online in 2028

Quote from: simms3 on May 15, 2013, 02:49:41 PM
While I'm all for regional planning and transportation linkages, I am not a proponent of this at this time.

this isn't getting built tomorrow....there is at least 5 years of studies and design still to go....and then the money needs to be allocated....at best, service wouldn't start until at least 2020.

Given that, are you still opposed?

as top the bridge crossing issue mentioned above, the Tampa Bay area is looking at that right now.....replacing one span of the I-275 Howard Frankland Bridge and providing accomodation for rail is expected to cost over $1 Billion.

that's likely more than the whole commuter rail system proposed by JTA would cost 

well DOT will be adding express lanes on the Buckman bridge in the future and hopefully will let express buses use them. I do not see any kind of rail crossing there in my lifetime.

Quote from: FSBA on May 16, 2013, 08:42:45 AM
Having no Buckman Bridge equivalent really cuts that design at the knees. No one who takes the Buckman Bridge to work is going to give that design a 2nd look if they're forced to go all the way to downtown to switch trains.

While true, no transit system is set up to accommodate everyone.  Over time what happens is people's living and working choices are made with taking advantage of transit routes in mind. 

Quote from: tufsu1 on May 16, 2013, 09:40:02 AM

Quote from: simms3 on May 15, 2013, 02:49:41 PM
While I'm all for regional planning and transportation linkages, I am not a proponent of this at this time.

this isn't getting built tomorrow....there is at least 5 years of studies and design still to go....and then the money needs to be allocated....at best, service wouldn't start until at least 2020.

Given that, are you still opposed?

Yes.  I think commuter rail is mostly a waste in every city its done outside of NY-NJ, Chicago, Boston, Philadelphia, and SF.  I also think Tri-Rail is a waste - latest figures are 14,300 avg weekday riders over 72 miles (200 riders per mile).  I don't care how cheap it is to build relative to inner city light rail, streetcars, or especially heavy rail, it's still a waste in my book.

If Jax leadership and people were as progressive as those in Portland and literally wanted to turn a whole new direction and redo basically the whole city from zoning down to transit, I wouldn't question plans and transit routes as much.  But this is Jacksonville, which is totally lost on whether it actually wants transit, it doesn't really need rail transit, and it has horrible political backing locally and federally.  So, while I would be for a well-planned transit system that can actually be an economic generator (a lightly used commuter rail line WON'T be), I am against any plan that I deem a waste.

Look at the Nashville Star for example (or Capital MetroRail in Austin!).

I think the focus needs to be on practical solutions to real problems, i.e. inner city transportation. I have to agree with simms3 in that it would take a new caliber of leadership than what we are used to here and commitment from same.

Quote from: simms3 on May 16, 2013, 11:04:47 AM

Quote from: tufsu1 on May 16, 2013, 09:40:02 AM

Quote from: simms3 on May 15, 2013, 02:49:41 PM
While I'm all for regional planning and transportation linkages, I am not a proponent of this at this time.

this isn't getting built tomorrow....there is at least 5 years of studies and design still to go....and then the money needs to be allocated....at best, service wouldn't start until at least 2020.

Given that, are you still opposed?

Yes.  I think commuter rail is mostly a waste in every city its done outside of NY-NJ, Chicago, Boston, Philadelphia, and SF.  I also think Tri-Rail is a waste - latest figures are 14,300 avg weekday riders over 72 miles (200 riders per mile).  I don't care how cheap it is to build relative to inner city light rail, streetcars, or especially heavy rail, it's still a waste in my book.

If Jax leadership and people were as progressive as those in Portland and literally wanted to turn a whole new direction and redo basically the whole city from zoning down to transit, I wouldn't question plans and transit routes as much.  But this is Jacksonville, which is totally lost on whether it actually wants transit, it doesn't really need rail transit, and it has horrible political backing locally and federally.  So, while I would be for a well-planned transit system that can actually be an economic generator (a lightly used commuter rail line WON'T be), I am against any plan that I deem a waste.

Look at the Nashville Star for example (or Capital MetroRail in Austin!).

I don't know that I'd call either a failure at this point, especially Austin's. How much TOD has Capital MetroRail in Austin been responsible for?  The amount of new construction generated along the corridor has most likely already exceeded the cost to construct that system. The gulf is only going to grew as the community ages and infills around this new transportation corridor.

As for commuter rail and Jax, I would keep my eyes out on what happens with Amtrak and All Aboard Florida going forward.  There may be situations where the expansion of those services into our region significantly impact plans currently being considered.

Quote from: icarus on May 16, 2013, 11:30:59 AM
I think the focus needs to be on practical solutions to real problems, i.e. inner city transportation. I have to agree with simms3 in that it would take a new caliber of leadership than what we are used to here and commitment from same.

Great point about inner city transportation.  A strong argument can be made that our existing mass transit system should be modified and contracted to better serve as smaller, denser area of town instead of providing uniform poor service to a more spread out area.

^^^I have never heard the word TOD thrown around when it comes to development in Austin and while real estate folks in most cities love to tout transit and throw around words like TOD, Austin is without these tranist-enthusiastic words and I have personally heard private sector leaders' distaste for what they deem as a failed system.  New development in Austin is far away from the rail line.  Even the local papers have come out with articles basically asking "where's the transit oriented development?".  It's a failure by all accounts and it has taken a toll on transit political will in the city.

Hmm. We ran an article about their system when it opened a few years back.  What do they call these?

(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/assets/thumbs/image.1541.feature.jpg)

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/871778974_fwj2E-M.jpg)

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/871778783_r237m-M.jpg)

Here's a link with images of other projects there: http://www.capmetro.org/uploadedFiles/Capmetroorg/Future_Plans/Transit-Oriented_Development/asg_insert.pdf

Austin's CapMetro is doing fine.

http://www.statesman.com/news/news/local/capital-metro-seeing-higher-ridership-for-bus-ra-1/nRNJ2/

http://www.capmetro.org/news-item.aspx?id=1953

TOD is a fantastic concept but I think development if any along the new Sun Rail in the Orlando corridor would be a better comparison for our purposes albeit premature as its not completed.

The problem is Jacksonville has not planned for or executed on a transportation plan that promotes smart growth or creates opportunities for development of new TOD.  Extending the people mover to Brooklyn or the Shipyards is not enough to promote real development changes beyond a few downtown parcels.

How do we plan for a system that serves the biggest constituency and promotes use of mass transit over automobile? How do you reverse decades of lack of planning on our City's part?

Quote from: icarus on May 16, 2013, 12:03:00 PM
TOD is a fantastic concept but I think development if any along the new Sun Rail in the Orlando corridor would be a better comparison for our purposes albeit premature as its not completed.

It will depend on the type of commuter rail service and frequency being offered, in addition to land use policies to support transit corridors.  From studies produced to date, you have two different animals on the three proposed JTA corridors.  The North corridor is more similar to what you may find in Austin, New Jersey and Oceanside, CA.  The other two corridors appear to have more in common with what Sunrail will resemble in Orlando.

QuoteThe problem is Jacksonville has not planned for or executed on a transportation plan that promotes smart growth or creates opportunities for development of new TOD.  Extending the people mover to Brooklyn or the Shipyards is not enough to promote real development changes beyond a few downtown parcels.

We do have a plan.  It's called the 2030 Mobility Plan and it includes a Mobility Fee and transit supportive land use policies to lead us into a different path. 

http://www.coj.net/departments/planning-and-development/community-planning-division/transportation-planning/mobility-plan.aspx

It was approved by COJ in late 2011.  Unfortunately, we can't get council to let it take full effect. In any event, we're farther along than most believe.

QuoteHow do we plan for a system that serves the biggest constituency and promotes use of mass transit over automobile? How do you reverse decades of lack of planning on our City's part?

Incremental change but all these options will do is provide viable mobility choices.  We're not going to have an environment where the masses choose mass transit over the automobile.  Even Metropolitan NYC doesn't have that.  Btw, what's the biggest constituency?

QuoteI have never heard the word TOD thrown around when it comes to development in Austin and while real estate folks in most cities love to tout transit and throw around words like TOD, Austin is without these tranist-enthusiastic words and I have personally heard private sector leaders' distaste for what they deem as a failed system.  New development in Austin is far away from the rail line.  Even the local papers have come out with articles basically asking "where's the transit oriented development?".  It's a failure by all accounts and it has taken a toll on transit political will in the city.

I can tell you from very, very personal experience that there is TOD in Austin. 

Quote from: thelakelander on May 16, 2013, 11:49:36 AM
Hmm. We ran an article about their system when it opened a few years back.  What do they call these?

(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/assets/thumbs/image.1541.feature.jpg)

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/871778974_fwj2E-M.jpg)

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/871778783_r237m-M.jpg)

Here's a link with images of other projects there: http://www.capmetro.org/uploadedFiles/Capmetroorg/Future_Plans/Transit-Oriented_Development/asg_insert.pdf

Listen I only know what I hear in the industry I work in...the multifamily real estate play in Austin is not the rail system and nobody is touting that system as a success.  And I can point to articles questioning the system in their own media within the past year alone:

http://www.statesman.com/news/news/local/a-look-at-development-around-metrorails-nine-stati/nRmSk/

QuoteTwo years after the trains began running, and more than seven years after voters approved the 32-mile line, transit-oriented development has been sparse at MetroRail's nine stations. A stop-by-stop summary:

Daily ridership of 2,800 on average, over 32 miles.  That's Skyway ridership over 16x the length...LOLROFLMAO, that's a success?!?

So success is defined only by ridership in the early years of operation?  I'd think, in determining ROI, there would be a lot more factors at play and a significantly longer timeline to evaluate.  Factors would include:

- Capital and O&M cost of system
- Jobs created
- Property tax revenue increase along corridor
- Businesses and residences created along corridor
- Public costs saved by investing in long term transit network implementation over roadway capacity expansion, etc.

Considering they put up a 32 mile system for an insanely cheap price of $120 million, it would seem they're off to a great start.  Place a dollar figure on the development that's taken place within walking distance of it's stations, and you already have more private investment than public. For me, that's a success in and of itself and as time goes on, numbers will only multiply.

Also, simply following the line on Google Earth (which includes settings for before and after aerials), reveals all you need to know on if there's TOD or not.  No articles or opinions from any other sources are needed.

You can't foster transit oriented development without transit.  The Federal, State and Local governments have pushed single family home ownership and automobile centric development for decades.

Economic realities and changing demographics are what is going to change the focus of development to clustered and more dense developments. I think Simms3 and theLakelander all raise good points but it all comes down to timing and planning. Jacksonville needs a lot of work on both points.

I still say that the focus should be on establishing effective local mass transit with plans on how to integrate commuter rail and other regional and supra-regional transportation at a later date.

Correct, you can't foster TOD without transit.  That was a huge reason for the mobility fee funding the majority of starter transit projects within the urban core mobility zones. Transit also won't sprout TOD if the land use regulations aren't supportive.  The Mobility Plan also addressed this as well by modifying the comp plan to allow for more dense, mixed use development along existing and future transit corridors.

With that said, luckily we aren't starting from scratch.  We've accomplished a lot, in terms of planning and coming up with unique funding strategies over the last five years.  It's a great time to build upon those things to make some of this stuff a reality, sooner rather than later.

QuoteI still say that the focus should be on establishing effective local mass transit with plans on how to integrate commuter rail and other regional and supra-regional transportation at a later date.

This appears to be what new JTA CEO Nat Ford is doing, which makes a ton of sense. 

QuoteTopping Ford’s to-do list is a plan to totally revamp the bus route structure, creating one that is more direct, quicker, and attracts more riders. He also said he'd like to study an expansion of the much-maligned Skyway Express into Riverside. For more on Ford's plans to improve mass transit, see Friday's Jacksonville Business Journal.

http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2013/05/16/new-jta-ceo-ford-wants-to-tie-together.html

Quote from: thelakelander on May 16, 2013, 12:48:33 PM
So success is defined only by ridership in the early years of operation?  I'd think, in determining ROI, there would be a lot more factors at play and a significantly longer timeline to evaluate.  Factors would include:

Also, simply following the line on Google Earth (which includes settings for before and after aerials), reveals all you need to know on if there's TOD or not.  No articles or opinions from any other sources are needed.

Well articles on MetroJax itself have touted other systems as exceeding original expectations, and thereby resulting in success in that respect.  For such a progressive smaller city, Austin's rail transit has actually fallen short.  Also - especially in conservative areas like Jax/the sunbelt, any transit projects should be run at least a little like a business.  People in rich liberal cities like Boston may have more patience to see public dollars bear fruit, but people in Jax will have no patience, especially in regards to transit.  Anything built must have some sort of built-in guarantee that it will work...as we so frequently discuss on these boards, public perception is everything...wouldn't want to destroy any inkling of will for more transit in the public's eye by an investment that takes years or even decades to pan out, all whilst serving a few hundred folks!

I did what you said in Austin - did the most updated bird's eye view actually.  I could find 3 examples of "TOD" on a visible scale from above built within the past 5 years.  The rest is already built environment from 10+ years ago before the rail was a thought (and mostly garden style multifamily).  It's a horrible example for rail.  It's anticlimactic, which is what we don't want to happen in Jax.

Besides, will Jax commuter rail be more like Austin's, or Tri-Rail/Nashville Star?  All three are failures in my book and I wouldn't support my taxpayer dollars going towards such plans - and I'm a liberal, especially with transit!  LoL

I've used express busses and seen how they work - express busses should be used between SJC and Jax.  Cheaper than commuter rail, less of a political hastle, AND they are used by the same demographic.  They don't spur TOD, but I am highly suspicious of any claims that commuter rail between St. Aug and Jax will either.  You have express busses that run between St. Aug and Jax, perhaps with one that stops or ends at the Avenues, and you have another route that does Avenues to DT Jax.  You can do busses to Orange Park.  To the beaches (and not city busses, but those charter busses where one-way would be $1-2 more), etc etc.

If we want a successful system for ridership and especially for TOD/economic development and use by young millennials looking to live in the city, then an LRT line similar to Charlotte's or a streetcar line similar to those in Seattle's SLU area would likely be MUCH better, and still relatively inexpensive overall due to smaller scale/length (and certainly if ROW is planned well).

Quote from: simms3 on May 16, 2013, 02:26:04 PM

Quote from: thelakelander on May 16, 2013, 12:48:33 PM
So success is defined only by ridership in the early years of operation?  I'd think, in determining ROI, there would be a lot more factors at play and a significantly longer timeline to evaluate.  Factors would include:

Also, simply following the line on Google Earth (which includes settings for before and after aerials), reveals all you need to know on if there's TOD or not.  No articles or opinions from any other sources are needed.

Well articles on MetroJax itself have touted other systems as exceeding original expectations, and thereby resulting in success in that respect.

We tend to focus on the fiscal aspect of systems like Austin's.  It's a perfect example of a no-frills solution of creating an operational line at an affordable cost:

Rail on a Budget: Austin's MetroRail (September 2007) (http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2007-sep-rail-on-a-budget-austins-metrorail)

It's also a great example at stimulating TOD for a commuter rail line (which is different than what you would witness on a streetcar or LRT line that features shorter headways:

Metrorail Commuter Line Opens in Austin (May 2010) (http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2010-may-metrorail-commuter-line-opens-in-austin)

We've mentioned ridership exceeding estimates on new LRT lines in the past but even those stories were more economic development and sustainability driven.  By the same token, we've also looked at failed transit projects to serve as examples of what not to do:

Syracuse: When Rail Fails (http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2008-jan-syracuse-when-rail-fails)

QuoteFor such a progressive smaller city, Austin's rail transit has actually fallen short.

It's only a four year old system but what exactly has it fallen short on and in comparison to what (just trying to better understand your point of view)? 

QuoteAlso - especially in conservative areas like Jax/the sunbelt, any transit projects should be run at least a little like a business.  People in rich liberal cities like Boston may have more patience to see public dollars bear fruit, but people in Jax will have no patience, especially in regards to transit.

Do you consider the implementation of transit over the last decade in cities like Houston, Dallas, Phoenix, Charlotte and Salt Lake City a success?

QuoteAnything built must have some sort of built-in guarantee that it will work...as we so frequently discuss on these boards, public perception is everything...wouldn't want to destroy any inkling of will for more transit in the public's eye by an investment that takes years or even decades to pan out, all whilst serving a few hundred folks!

To me, that's the economic development factor.  Public perception is everything.  When you start to see redevelopment occurring in places that were desolate for decades, that typically spurs expansion into other areas.  That's the case in cities like Charlotte, Salt Lake City, San Diego, St. Louis, Denver, Dallas, Houston, etc. in recent years.

QuoteI did what you said in Austin - did the most updated bird's eye view actually.  I could find 3 examples of "TOD" on a visible scale from above built within the past 5 years.  The rest is already built environment from 10+ years ago before the rail was a thought (and mostly garden style multifamily).

You maybe looking for a certain style of development.  TOD doesn't have to be mixed-use and multiple floors.  It can also be single family infill, such as the development at the MLK Station.  It can also be adaptive reuse of existing building stock. Anyway, the link you posted is a great run down of what's along that 4-year old commuter rail line.  It also mentions what's on the way. For example, a college purchasing the vacant mall at the line's Highlands station is a huge deal, even if classes won't be in session for a few years from now. 

With that being said, the one Crestview Station TOD project has just as many multi-family residential units as the two Brooklyn projects combined.  Something like that would be a huge boost for an area just outside downtown like New Town or Brentwood.

QuoteIt's a horrible example for rail.  It's anticlimactic, which is what we don't want to happen in Jax.

It's a horrible example if you're comparing it to a recently built LRT or streetcar line. It's a great example for creating a starter commuter rail system at an affordable cost and encouraging new development in areas that had been in decline for decades.   Those two things alone, make it worthwhile for us to take a look at it.  It's ridership numbers and current operations are another.  We can also learn from those as well.

Quote from: simms3 on May 16, 2013, 02:38:18 PM
Besides, will Jax commuter rail be more like Austin's, or Tri-Rail/Nashville Star?  All three are failures in my book and I wouldn't support my taxpayer dollars going towards such plans - and I'm a liberal, especially with transit!  LoL

It will be like whatever we set it up to be.  Will it have 15, 30, 60, 120 minute headways?  Will we create TIF districts around its stations to encourage TOD?  Will we coordinate the rest of the transit network to funnel riders into it?  Will it be ran like a transit spine or a traditional commuter rail system?  If AAF expanded to Jax and offered hourly service to St. Augustine and BRT runs on Philips, is it even worth it on the FEC?

At this point, things are so conceptual, it remains to be determined if the system is fully feasible as proposed.  Considering we're still a decade away from any sort of commuter rail running, it's up to us to lay down the foundation to shape that distant reality now.

QuoteIf we want a successful system for ridership and especially for TOD/economic development and use by young millennials looking to live in the city, then an LRT line similar to Charlotte's or a streetcar line similar to those in Seattle's SLU area would likely be MUCH better, and still relatively inexpensive overall due to smaller scale/length (and certainly if ROW is planned well).

What makes the Seattle SLUT (or whatever they are calling it now) a success and all these other systems failures? It certainly isn't ridership. The Skyway gets double the daily ridership. To me, the greatest thing about the SLUT, and half of these other systems, is their ability to encourage infill growth and development.

Good points.  You seem to see things from a planner's/architect's perspective.  I look at things through an entirely different lens.  I think my expectations and those of peers in my industry are probably set a lot higher.  For instance...I don't think Atlanta's streetcar will be a success story, and I believe that others involved in real estate looking for a catalyst for new development opportunities feel the same way.  Yet those in the CVB, DT Atlanta Progress, and Invest Atlanta are pretty optimistic about the system and Cousins is praying that it means a turnaround for DT Atlanta office so they can exit!  :)

Also, keep in mind Austin's growth, not only in terms of sheer population, but in terms of renter population.  It's undeniably an overheated development market right now, and of the new development in the past 5 years and that UC and proposed at this point in time, an immaterial percentage has been tied to the rail line.  Most of it is suburban away from rail but near employment, or right in DT or on the other side of the university, or along the waterfront.

Contrast to Charlotte...literally the bulk of its new construction has been around LYNX with a few projects downtown, a few projects in Southpark, and a few suburban projects around Ballantyne.

With the way Austin is growing, how dynamic the city is, I would have expected a lot more along the rail, and I think others would have too...they see all the cranes up, just not in sight of Metrorail (and I think as heard like as developers are...a few developers did not see the usefulness of the city and passed...whereas in Charlotte developers saw and predicted correctly the usefulness of the system...)

Metrorail in Austin = 2,800 riders over 32 miles
LYNX in Charlotte = 14,800 riders over 9.6 miles

density of population around each is similar, maybe higher in Austin...one was clearly done better than the other and provided more opportunity for development, and it wasn't the commuter rail option.

Quote from: thelakelander on May 16, 2013, 03:13:59 PM
What makes the Seattle SLUT (or whatever they are calling it now) a success and all these other systems failures? It certainly isn't ridership. The Skyway gets double the daily ridership. To me, the greatest thing about the SLUT, and half of these other systems, is their ability to encourage infill growth and development.

Perhaps you're right about SLUT because most of the development in that area is arguably not due to the trolley, though 2,500 riders on 1.3 miles is in a sense comparable to 5,400 riders on 2.5 miles, and SLUT charges $2.50/ride whilst the Skyway is free.

But, I still think Tri-Rail, Capital Metrorail, and Nashville Star among other commuter rail systems are failures.  They are a waste.  If we can dramatically change land use and zoning and gather the political support from the community to incorporate complete streets and limit sprawl growth (all of which Portland did), then I'd sing a different tune.  For now, I just want to see a really good transit line put in so that we can use it as a shining beacon...I do not want to spend money, time or effort on a system that won't be a good public example that allows us to leverage increased political will for more transit and better zoning/planning.

At this point, I don't have a strong opinion on the Atlanta Streetcar, other than I believe it would have made better sense for it to actually penetrate neighborhoods.  I seriously doubt it's going to turn around their downtown office market.

When I look at Austin's line, it travels through sections of the city where growth had long stopped, such as older obsolete industrial areas and lower income neighborhoods.  From my perspective, without it the infill that's occurring in those areas would not be happening.  Instead, development activity in those neighborhoods would be just as absent as it is in New Springfield and Panama Park (despite Austin's rapid growth). 

Charlotte is a different animal because they have a LRT line and strong land use policies to densify around it.  With LRT, it costs you more, but the service is more frequent and reliable, which generates more use and associated development. Connectivity is also enhanced with the bike trail that parallels the rail line.  You can literally build anywhere along that line and your residents will still have easy access to its stations.

With that said, the fact that we're talking about commuter rail locally, what's proposed will be more like Tri-Rail or Sunrail, than Charlotte's LRT.

Quote from: simms3 on May 16, 2013, 03:31:25 PM
But, I still think Tri-Rail, Capital Metrorail, and Nashville Star among other commuter rail systems are failures.  They are a waste.  If we can dramatically change land use and zoning and gather the political support from the community to incorporate complete streets and limit sprawl growth (all of which Portland did), then I'd sing a different tune.  For now, I just want to see a really good transit line put in so that we can use it as a shining beacon...I do not want to spend money, time or effort on a system that won't be a good public example that allows us to leverage increased political will for more transit and better zoning/planning.

Out of everything proposed locally, the best opportunity is the DT-Riverside streetcar line the mobility plan would fund 100%.  It's short enough ($3.5 miles) to not be a major expense but long enough to tie together two areas of urban activity.  It hits Brooklyn and LaVilla, which both could serve as environments where we can evaluate the impact of fixed transit and denser infill development.  It can also be stretched through the Cathedral District and Springfield with ease.

On top of that, given that it's a streetcar, it could be designed to operate similar to LRT and serve as a transit spine for funneling westside and northside riders into downtown, which results in higher daily ridership.

Quote from: simms3 on May 16, 2013, 03:31:25 PM

Quote from: thelakelander on May 16, 2013, 03:13:59 PM
What makes the Seattle SLUT (or whatever they are calling it now) a success and all these other systems failures? It certainly isn't ridership. The Skyway gets double the daily ridership. To me, the greatest thing about the SLUT, and half of these other systems, is their ability to encourage infill growth and development.

Perhaps you're right about SLUT because most of the development in that area is arguably not due to the trolley, though 2,500 riders on 1.3 miles is in a sense comparable to 5,400 riders on 2.5 miles, and SLUT charges $2.50/ride whilst the Skyway is free.

But, I still think Tri-Rail, Capital Metrorail, and Nashville Star among other commuter rail systems are failures.  They are a waste.  If we can dramatically change land use and zoning and gather the political support from the community to incorporate complete streets and limit sprawl growth (all of which Portland did), then I'd sing a different tune.  For now, I just want to see a really good transit line put in so that we can use it as a shining beacon...I do not want to spend money, time or effort on a system that won't be a good public example that allows us to leverage increased political will for more transit and better zoning/planning.

(Long time lurker here)

I completely disagree about Tri-Rail, and you cannot place it in the same camp as the Nashville Star and Capital Metrorail. South Florida is completely sprawled out between Jupiter and Homestead, a completely different environment than Austin and Nashville where people drive to downtown in the morning and to the suburbs in the afternoon. Tri-Rail serves West Palm Beach, Boca Raton, Cypress Creek, Fort Lauderdale, and Miami (via Metrorail) and have a number of people originating or detraining there throughout the day. It's probably one of the most unique metro areas in the United States based on that aspect. Ridership has bounced back after the financial crisis, carrying a record amount of passengers last year. Service this year expanded to hourly weekend service, and there are plans to run additional trains on the Florida East Coast line through downtowns, in addition to the current service along I-95.

As far as Jacksonville, St. Augustine to Jacksonville makes the most sense at the moment. The Florida East Coast is a well maintained railroad, and is now very interested in passenger rail on there track (Amtrak, AAF, and Tri-Rail). Capital cost would probably be the lowest of all the routes proposed because of the well maintained tracks. Add some sidings, build stations, buy equipment, and voila! It might not even be a bad idea to have the line go all the way down to Bunnell (Palm Coast). Extend the Palm Coast Parkway west to the FEC ROW for your Palm Coast stop. Unfortunately, there aren't a lot of people between St. Augustine and I-295, and St. Augustine and Palm Coast.

The southwest line to Green Cove Springs is also very appealing population density wise, but CSX would probably be much more demanding.

I grew up with stories of boys following the rail line  and using the rail bridge from downtown to the beaches and stories of my parents taking the train to FSU from downtown Jax.  It would be nice to see a return to effective mass transit and especially rail.

We, however, are faced with limited economic capital and effectuating a change in popular culture here in NE Florida to support rail.  I think a commuter to rail to St. Augustine with perhaps a stop at Palencia may make sense at some point but right now, expansion of the existing people mover to a useful system, i.e. destinations, or a streetcar system makes more sense in terms of ridership, e.g. economics.  With the moving of the courthouse, it would seem the street traffic argument for running the people mover down Bay street to the stadium as planned is no longer valid.

Quote from: thelakelander on May 15, 2013, 02:45:58 PM
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-5959-jta-final-station03.png)

Awesome, thanks for that! Yes, I would take this just about every day. I live near the FSCJ Kent stop, and as a consultant I work downtown Jax some days, downtown St Augustine others. Both have stops where I could walk from. Again I'll admit that I'm selfish, but I want this to happen!!!

Simms, I am in your 'industry' and without a doubt Austin's rail has been successful in stimulating TOD.  Furthermore, it has so much room to grow. 

Similarly, Nashville's system has worked beyond expectations.   

I can't say much about Atlanta's new streetcar line... I haven't lived or done business there in nearly 6 years.

Hmm, guess it's not the development news story du jour for either Austin or Nashville that I've been hearing, not to say it isn't out there.  My firm is invested in Nashville on a deal that I once worked on (tower is coincidentally 2 blocks from the Star stop, but I'm pretty sure that most in our company familiar with the deal don't even know the Star exists, LoL), but we aren't invested in Austin/TX.  We have familiar counterparts from Atlanta going long on Austin office in a major way with new development, and I know a good many folks working on multifamily development deals there (actually I have seen the underwriting of one of the deals as our partner in our Nashville deal just put up a tower in Austin - along the waterfront far from the rail), just haven't heard the positives of the rail yet...

To clear the record, I am not anti-rail.  I am simply playing devil's advocate and looking at the proposals in Jax through a different lens.  I am just not sure that Jax as a whole is "ready" for intercity urban or intracity regional rail.  I would hope and guess that the city is more ready for a smaller intercity line with lots of development potential (line going NW or due North?).  Here's my beef with commuter rail from St. Augustine to DT Jax:

1) Are commuting patterns actually enough to justify ridership?

2) Traffic along 95 in between is not that bad, not bad enough where a rail with stops is actually a better commute

3) Gas is cheap in NE FL, parking is cheap if not free, it's abundant

4) Density along the proposed corridor is scarce at best

5) Doubtful JTA would handle - if it's like most cities (I think) a separate entity would build/run the line, an entity that spans the region (this is not something that is set up in Jax, Jax doesn't have much if any experience setting up regional entities and promoting regional coordination and cooperation)

6) What percentage of residents along the route work in DT Jax or St. Aug

6a) I realize most probably work elsewhere and "busses would tie in to system", but asking someone in the south to ride a city bus is like asking someone to sell their soul to the devil for nothing in return (we're talking about asking folks who live in SJC to transfer to a JTA bus here, folks - reality check, LoL)

7) Express busses operated by a regional bus authority or a SJC Transit authority into DT Jax, Southpoint, or Avenues, etc would work just as well and would be even cheaper to build/operate

8 ) Do we honestly think a commuter rail line on this route would spur TOD?  Maybe that one site near San Marco, but I'd rather see LRT or streetcar go through there.

Quote from: fsujax on May 16, 2013, 09:51:11 AM
well DOT will be adding express lanes on the Buckman bridge in the future and hopefully will let express buses use them. I do not see any kind of rail crossing there in my lifetime.

really...do you know something I don't?

Quote from: simms3 on May 16, 2013, 02:38:18 PM
Besides, will Jax commuter rail be more like Austin's, or Tri-Rail/Nashville Star?  All three are failures in my book and I wouldn't support my taxpayer dollars going towards such plans - and I'm a liberal, especially with transit!  LoL

well good thing you don't pay taxes here then huh?

seriously simms....it isn't like development automatically and quickly gravitates to transit corridors....more often than not it takes time....for example, DC's Metro didn't garner much TOD for the first two decades....yet look at it now....same can be said for the southern leg of MetroRail in Miami

It takes years for these regional transit plans to come together. Unfortunately JTA is the 100 pound gorilla on anything substantial in NE Florida.

I have posted on it before, but the Chicago area came up with a novel plan (thanks to Gov. Richard Ogilvie, one of the few not in jail) to deal with the gorilla back in the 1970's. The CTA.

The regional authority is set up with a board made up of CTA oriented appointees and suburban (meaning non-Chicago) members. The authority chair is appointed by the state of Illinois.

CTA runs their own affairs within the confines of the city and its access to O'Hare.

Pace (bus) and Metra (rail) run their own affairs. Pace doesn't run services inside Chicago unless CTA approves. Metra serves the outer cities and under agreement some city stations as well.

While it hasn't been perfected, they do run some transfer abilities between the lines, but CTA complains they get the short end of the deal on the transfers and they stop serving it. Ultimately they would like to go to a single card system for the whole network, but CTA went electronic on their own w/o much input from RTA.

Using this formula, this helps avoid what used to be a constant funding competition between the city for CTA and the suburbs for commuter services. Every service gets adequate capital to maintain their plant. (CTA is currently replacing their L trainsets), the ability to run their own affairs, but yet coordinate with their peers in the burbs.

This model could work for JTA and the outer counties interested in a transit plan.  JTA can mind their own kitchen, but participate as a member of the regional authority.

I think a lot of development naturally gravitates towards well-planned transit.  DC was building TOD before the term even came out - Balston-Rosslyn corridor, Bethesda, Silver Springs, Rockville, etc.  I also think besides just having a rail line there are other things at play.

Spuwho, great information.  I think the Bay Area transit providers are set up very similarly, as are the NYC/Tri-State.  I don't think a lone commuter rail line in lil ol Jax needs to be as complicated - it won't necessarily be competing with JTA busses/Skyway, but rather potentially feed the JTA system (though I have doubts it would feed busses by a measurable amount).

Frankly, I'm surprised that Clay and SJC don't have an express bus system into Duval already.

Clay does have express bus service the X4, the X2 runs from the beach to downtown and one is being planned for St Johns. Also the State legislature just approved the creation of a regional transportation commission consisting of Baker, Duval, Clay, Nassau, St Johns and Putnam, so it seems regional coordination is moving right along.

http://www.northfloridartsc.com/Pages/default.aspx

^^^Ok.  More examples of commuter busses below.  They are commonly used by regional transit authorities and outlying counties' transit operators into the central county.

(http://clatl.com/binary/ba78/1340135113-grta-bus.jpg)

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d3/GGT_MCI_D4500CT.jpg/1280px-GGT_MCI_D4500CT.jpg)

(http://www.rebuildingi93.com/_resources/images/bus/Boston-Express.jpg)



When I researched to see what kind of busses were on the X2/X4, I came across this article.

http://jacksonvilletransit.blogspot.com/2009/03/go-to-back-of-bus-over-top-in.html

The blog writes as if the Motorcoach bus use on these express routes is unique, but hardly so.

nothing unique about using MCI buses for express routes. It's standard procedure.

Well, then why doesn't JTA or a county authority put them to more use?  JTA only has a few of these busses.  When I lived in Midtown Atlanta, I would see probably 30 CCT MCI buses and maybe 40 GRTA MCI buses dump passengers off in the 8-9 AM hour at the transit/MARTA station across from my condo building.  Granted suburban Atl counties are larger than Clay or SJC and commuting patterns are more DT/MT Atlanta centric than Jacksonville's are DT Jax centric, but I would think that SJC or JTA running more express buses would be more beneficial for transit than commuter rail.  Neither will really spur economic development, the commuter rail has greater potential to be a blunder and is much more expensive, and commuter buses are very flexible and carry the same demographic that would ride rail as choice riders.

You act as if Jax already has this on lock, but I don't think it does.  I don't think you realize that commuter buses are a huge integral part of many if not most larger metro regional transportation solutions.  I don't believe I have seen one MCI bus in Jax, ever.  JTA took delivery of 3 of these buses more than a decade ago, how many do they have now?  5?  10?  They need 20-30!  SJC needs to send some up with its own agency.  Clay County needs to form its own transit agency.

Quote from: simms3 on May 17, 2013, 11:20:50 AM
Well, then why doesn't JTA or a county authority put them to more use?  JTA only has a few of these busses.  When I lived in Midtown Atlanta, I would see probably 30 CCT MCI buses and maybe 40 GRTA MCI buses dump passengers off in the 8-9 AM hour at the transit/MARTA station across from my condo building.

CCT operates about 45 MCI's on 7 express routes. MARTA operates 710 buses and unless something is new, they don't have any MCI's on the property. The MARTA fleet is however nearly 100% CNG fueled. JTA operates a fleet of 162 buses for fixed-route service and 102 vans for para-transit. This is hardly an apples to apples comparison.

Quote...I would think that SJC or JTA running more express buses would be more beneficial for transit than commuter rail.  Neither will really spur economic development, the commuter rail has greater potential to be a blunder and is much more expensive, and commuter buses are very flexible and carry the same demographic that would ride rail as choice riders.

You are treating them as equals, which they are NOT. There are many people who, for whatever reason will not step foot on a bus or a motor coach. You will not carry the same demographic on rail and bus. You are correct that buses spur economic development or TOD, only in rare cases, but rail tends to do so enough that it is considered common knowledge.

QuoteI don't believe I have seen one MCI bus in Jax, ever.  JTA took delivery of 3 of these buses more than a decade ago, how many do they have now?  5?  10?  They need 20-30! 

They have 3 and could probably keep 10 busy during rush hour. The original plan was for 6, but when the team came to demo the coaches, they were sabotaged during the night. Brake lines were cut and battery cables removed, making the MCI salesmen very reluctant to return.

St. Johns County has it's own 'Sunshine Bus' network which is an award winning system, Clay has 'Clay Transit'. Both of these are comprehensive systems, making it possible to go from downtown JAX to St. Augustine Beach, Hastings, Middleburg, Green Cove Springs or even Starke.

Glad you liked the blog, but if you'll reread the story, it is speaking to a unique type of express bus, not just seats on wheels, the concept is 'your office on wheels,' with all of the comforts of home. Just another idea that was slung at this city's transit agency and had the impact of eggs on a stone wall.

^^^Correct MARTA doesn't operate MCIs, but operators of MCIs in the metro drop passengers off at MARTA stations under agreements between the authorities (you know, the whole transfer thing?).  There are folks who won't get on any bus just like there are folks who will never ditch their car for any form of alternative transportation, but there is a demographic difference between folks that use city buses in the south and folks commuting in from suburbs on MCIs, and the latter resembles choice riders of a rail system more than captured riders on city buses (in fact MCI fares are often higher than rail fares).

I'm sure SJC and Clay have great systems, heavily used and all (JTA's system is one of the most sparsely used in the country), but do you think they adequately help people commute from their exurban counties into Duval?  I'd rather see strings of MCIs going down HOV lanes on 95 than invest hundreds of millions on a rail system that will be used by hundreds, maybe a few thousand, and likely not spur that much economic development (just guessing from the investment side that it wouldn't draw much interest).

The North Corridor would be a ripe spot for TOD.  The S-Line offers tons of redevelopment opportunity between the Trout River and Downtown.  Springfield Warehouse District, Jax Zoo, Imeson, River City Marketplace area, Shands Jacksonville, Edward Waters College, Beaver Street warehouse district, Trout River waterfront, etc. Since it would operate as a hybrid rail system with shorter headways, it would be somewhat closer to what the Oceanside Sprinter, Ausin MetroRail or New Jersey RiverLine is than Tri-Rail or Dallas' TRE.

On the FEC, depending on the type of service, St. Augustine, Flagler Center, Avenues Walk, Baymeadows, JTB are all locations where infill would easily be viable.  Flagler Center and Avenues Walk really stand out as great opportunities. Infrastructure is already in place at Flagler Center and in the past, Avenues Walk's future phase has been designed as mixed-use TOD.  Both of those could easily be urban versions of Bartram Park, that still appeal to suburbanites and people working nearby.

To me, the major challenge this corridor faces is the unknown with Amtrak, All Aboard Florida and JTA's push for BRT paralleling it on Philips between DT and Avenues Mall.  If BRT is built on that corridor and something like Amtrak or AAF provides service between Jax and St. Augustine, what would be the point of investing in a third layer of transit on that particular corridor while starving other areas of the city? 

From a transportation planning perspective, the SW corridor (CSX A Line) stands out to me.  Clay County has the worst commutes in the state, Blanding and Roosevelt are parking lots during rush hour, NAS Jax is the region's largest single site employer and the context of Murray Hill, the CoRK area and North Riverside create a decent opportunity for small scale redevelopment, adaptive use and infill. 

Anyway, we're still talking 2020 and beyond.  There's a lot that can change between now and then.

Quote from: simms3 on May 16, 2013, 08:52:37 PM
I am just not sure that Jax as a whole is "ready" for intercity urban or intracity regional rail. 

Isn't this backwards? I am not nitpicking, I'm actually just uncertain and want clarification. Based on the prefixes, I assume inter-city is regional and intra-city is urban.

Quote from: simms3 on May 17, 2013, 05:30:39 PM
I'm sure SJC and Clay have great systems, heavily used and all (JTA's system is one of the most sparsely used in the country), but do you think they adequately help people commute from their exurban counties into Duval? 

you got to start somewhere simms.

fact is both systems are small, but they have enjoyed explosive growth....since 2009 (when the system truly got going), Clay Transit ridership has increased from 15,000 trips a year to nearly 60,000 trips.

meanwhile, ridership on the St. Johns Sunshine Bus system (more mature having started in 2000) increased from 171,000 in 2009 to 240,000 in 2012....and included in this is the Purple route which goes up Philips Hwy and connects with JTA at the Avenues Mall.

both systems would like to expand routes and frequency....but that costs money...and since we all know that transit doesn't come close to breaking even, finding adequate continual funding is a challenge

btw....I suggest you take a look at farebox recovery ratios for various forms of transit...I think what you'll find is that commuter rail tends to have the best % recovery, meaning fares cover a higher proportion of operating expenses.

Great thread.

So I am not in any transit oriented industry, however I see that it is common agreement that nothing will happen for almost a decade.  Why is this?  Is that commuter rail study they did not enough? If someone like AAF were to decide they wanted to setup this system just as its laid out (obviously in an alternate universe, but just trying to understand).  Or if Carlos Slim decided he wanted to get in on the transit industry so he wrote a check to JTA for $1B ... would it still take that long?

As for express buses, great idea.  It is my understanding that by this fall I'll be able to drive down 220, board an express JTA bus and go right DT to work.  Awesome.  Whats even more awesome?  That in every rendering I've seen, there is a nice little bldg marked "Possible Future Commuter Rail Station".

Looking at it from an "outsiders" view (I split my time between Fleming Island and SoHo, NYC) I think the reason nothing happens with this is that you have two camps.  One camp is saying "lets build this, not for today. but for tomorrow.  Not for me, but for my kids.  Make the future a more livable city".  In the other camp, you have the people saying "look, the people that elected me to be here do not need the rail or bus service today.  So let me work on what they are complaining about and come back to this when I need to."  The problem is they are both right, each side has valid defenses and objections.  Worst commuter times in Florida.  Okay, but remember a lot of people migrated here from cities where sitting an hour just to get through a tunnel or being pushed back an hour and a half trying to get around the DC beltway was an everyday fact of life.  There has to be a need.  The question is ... should Jax act on a future need or wait until it becomes an immediate need?  I commute from Eagle Harbor to DT every day and at most I've sat in maybe 15 minutes of traffic. 

I love the idea of commuter rail.  As a matter of fact, I want this:
1. Skyway extensions to Stadium ( I feel this will attract a lot of new development to that area as well as spurring transit and redevelopment up Phoenix area), Riverside, 8th Street, McDuff & Beaver area
2. Streetcar/Trolley service DT, Springfield, Avondale, Riverside, Brooklyn, LaVilla
3. dedicated (not sure terminology here but that it has its own lane and can pass by any traffic) BRT to the beaches, down 103rd, down Normandy, down Argyle Forest, down Blanding.
4.Some sort of water taxi service linking DT with zoo, with Ortega, Riverside, Arlington (JU Campus)

I believe all of these (with the exception of water taxi) will happen by 2033 (20yrs).  The same question applies, do you make the actions now to build.  Or do you wait until you have to build?

Being that it seems we have some real estate investment people on here and I just read an article about One WTC, do you build the building then lease it?  Or do you secure leases then build?

As always, I love reading this site and wish more people would pay attention to the ideas here because a lot of it just makes sense.  Thank you all for sharing your knowledge.

Oh and as a side note, to the layperson with only a commuters knowledge, calling them MCI buses is kinda misleading.  I don't like the MCI buses in NYC, I would much rather take the VanHool or Prevost X45 buses.  They are more comfortable and a much better ride.  So lets call them what they are, Express Buses.  Manufacturers aside.

Quote from: JayBird on May 18, 2013, 04:09:36 AM
Great thread.

So I am not in any transit oriented industry, however I see that it is common agreement that nothing will happen for almost a decade.  Why is this?  Is that commuter rail study they did not enough? If someone like AAF were to decide they wanted to setup this system just as its laid out (obviously in an alternate universe, but just trying to understand).  Or if Carlos Slim decided he wanted to get in on the transit industry so he wrote a check to JTA for $1B ... would it still take that long?

Funding is a major reason something like this would take years to implement.  It is assumed, we'd seek federal dollars and there is a timely process that includes completing several studies before it would be eligible for some sort of funding.  If Carlos Slim wrote a check to the JTA for a $1B, the issue changes but you can't plan on that happening. 

The timeline is why I wonder about BRT, Amtrak and AAF.  JTA seems hell bent on building BRT-lite down Philips and AAF is basically FEC's baby.  If the Orlando/Miami line is successful in 2015, they already own the tracks and rolling stock to extend north to Jax, St. Augustine, Daytona, etc. with 60 minute headways.  They also have the cash JTA does not and the land along the tracks and a real estate development firm for TOD. So by 2020, they could possibly be running their own intercity service down the FEC (connecting DT Jax to DT St. Augustine) while JTA is running BRT-lite from DT Jax to Avenues Mall.  If that scenario happens, I'm not confident commuter rail where the majority of destinations, excluding Northern St. Johns County, makes a ton of sense.

QuoteLooking at it from an "outsiders" view (I split my time between Fleming Island and SoHo, NYC) I think the reason nothing happens with this is that you have two camps.  One camp is saying "lets build this, not for today. but for tomorrow.  Not for me, but for my kids.  Make the future a more livable city".  In the other camp, you have the people saying "look, the people that elected me to be here do not need the rail or bus service today.  So let me work on what they are complaining about and come back to this when I need to."  The problem is they are both right, each side has valid defenses and objections.  Worst commuter times in Florida.  Okay, but remember a lot of people migrated here from cities where sitting an hour just to get through a tunnel or being pushed back an hour and a half trying to get around the DC beltway was an everyday fact of life.  There has to be a need.  The question is ... should Jax act on a future need or wait until it becomes an immediate need?  I commute from Eagle Harbor to DT every day and at most I've sat in maybe 15 minutes of traffic.

If you're planning for the immediate, you're too late.  You should always plan for the future and the future suggests that there's a need, as well as a desire for Jacksonville to have a different development pattern.  You can't alter that development pattern without including the infrastructure and land use policies that influence that change.  From my view, we're simply a decade or so behind most peer communities in discussing and planning for this type of infrastructure.  On the surface, it seems like little has been done but there has been a great deal of change over the last five or six years.  However, funding remains the primary challenge. 

Thank you lake, now I understand.  So basically, the federal government sets the pace.  He whom possesses the checkbook, possesses the world.

Quote from: tufsu1 on May 17, 2013, 11:40:30 PM
btw....I suggest you take a look at farebox recovery ratios for various forms of transit...I think what you'll find is that commuter rail tends to have the best % recovery, meaning fares cover a higher proportion of operating expenses.

Which brings up another question since we know whatever transit we put in won't be "profitable" - will the conservative folks of Jax be more concerned about the fare box recovery % or the usefulness/ridership of the system?  I also tend to doubt that most will put 2 and 2 together should any "economic development" occur along the route, so they'll look at the system alone.

My concerns are that fresh off the decades of the Skyway blunder, people will be looking for a system that works and actually moves people from point A to point B, and my concern is that while commuter rail will be cheaper and efficient, serving that purpose, not that many will take it and it could be seen as another blunder.

Quote from: JayBird on May 18, 2013, 04:18:29 AM
Oh and as a side note, to the layperson with only a commuters knowledge, calling them MCI buses is kinda misleading.  I don't like the MCI buses in NYC, I would much rather take the VanHool or Prevost X45 buses.  They are more comfortable and a much better ride.  So lets call them what they are, Express Buses.  Manufacturers aside.

We're largely on the same page, having more "fresh" outsider perspectives.  There basically is no traffic in Jax, something I've harped on, so the "need" isn't pressing and it could be argued isn't there, so you have to have a perfect system that shines in the public's eye in some way.  Also, we're on the same page with busses, which are very useful if implemented correctly (JTA nor any of the transit authorities have figured out the routes, stations, marketing or ridership perks yet).  Of course very few cities in America have city bus systems used mostly by rich professionals (NYC, SF, Chicago, DC, Boston, Seattle), but most major cities do have express bus networks (maybe not operated by the city transit authority, but outlying authorities) that operate successfully, moving park n ride professsionals into the CBDs.  I've heard the term "commuter bus" as well, because express busses could just be a city route with limited stops.

Quote from: JayBird on May 18, 2013, 04:18:29 AM
Oh and as a side note, to the layperson with only a commuters knowledge, calling them MCI buses is kinda misleading.  I don't like the MCI buses in NYC, I would much rather take the VanHool or Prevost X45 buses.  They are more comfortable and a much better ride.  So lets call them what they are, Express Buses.  Manufacturers aside.

Sorry but since we are going technical here, MCI's, Eagle, VanHool, Setra, MAN nor Prevost are 'buses' they are 'motor coaches.' The difference is big... huge! I spent a large chunk of last weekend on a new MCI J-4500 with facing seats and tables in the rear. VERY NICE COACH. Though I prefer Eagles, or Silver Eagles, or Prevost. Most of the new Greyhound coaches in that two tone blue paint are Prevost products.

Quote from: simms3 on May 18, 2013, 11:15:40 AM
My concerns are that fresh off the decades of the Skyway blunder, people will be looking for a system that works and actually moves people from point A to point B, and my concern is that while commuter rail will be cheaper and efficient, serving that purpose, not that many will take it and it could be seen as another blunder.

and that is why you the studies are necessary...a key one will be the investment grade ridership study

Quote from: Ocklawaha on May 18, 2013, 01:13:18 PM

Quote from: JayBird on May 18, 2013, 04:18:29 AM
Oh and as a side note, to the layperson with only a commuters knowledge, calling them MCI buses is kinda misleading.  I don't like the MCI buses in NYC, I would much rather take the VanHool or Prevost X45 buses.  They are more comfortable and a much better ride.  So lets call them what they are, Express Buses.  Manufacturers aside.

Sorry but since we are going technical here, MCI's, Eagle, VanHool, Setra, MAN nor Prevost are 'buses' they are 'motor coaches.' The difference is big... huge! I spent a large chunk of last weekend on a new MCI J-4500 with facing seats and tables in the rear. VERY NICE COACH. Though I prefer Eagles, or Silver Eagles, or Prevost. Most of the new Greyhound coaches in that two tone blue paint are Prevost products.

Thank you Ock, can always be counted on to keep us on point.  Yes, the only buses I ride are in the NYC-DC areas when Amtraks Acela and Northeast Corridor are having issues (there is that OPTIONS thing again, don't know why JTA doesn't get it).  Over the past few years the MCI's are fading ... IDK where VanHool came from but they are rapidly selling to fleets in that area.  The iconic double decker MegaBus is a VanHool.  And that brings up another point, everytime I read a post or watch a YouTube video of councilpersons speaking, every one loves buses.  They claim quick to set up, cheaper to operate, and my favorite "they are 'adaptable' to the changing community environments".  Whoever came up with that pitch earned their paycheck bc I have heard countless times.  So then, how come since it is so much better why don't we have intercity bus service such as MegaBus (currently you can go to Atlanta or Orlando and make a connection to go to Gainesville.  Is it bc Greyhound does that?  I spent some time today on google learning a little about this commuter bus idea and I agree that Jacksonville is more like a school bus operator than a mass transit agency.  I found stuff like Buses on Shoulders, dedicated highways specifically for buses, and learned a little more about BRT.  My biggest lesson of the day, BRT is not used like JTA has planned.  For instance, I saw a map that shows BRT service down Philips to the Avenues Mall.  Other agencies it seems give this the name of Express or Commuter or Limited service because that is what it is providing, a modified bus route.  What other agencies seem to use BRT for is similar to what the Flagler Flyer use to do, start and westside picking up people connecting from the southbound buses it crosses, cross Buckman and make a few more stops while connecting to transit services on that side of river. 

So, basically I am understanding it right, bus service connects to your destination.  BRT fills the gap that convential routes inevitably always have or providing service to a highly used corridor.

Another thing I noticed, a lot of other agencies push transit on their tourists through advertising, ticket perks, reduced fare with hotel room key that kind of thing.  Does anyone know if JTA does this?  Can you be staying at the Hyatt downtown and decide you'd like to see a Jaguar and board a bus to the zoo?  If so, is it known or do you have to research schedules to make it work? 

And finally, getting back to the topic of this thread, I noticed other areas would have you purchase one ticket for a St Aug to Jax ride.  For instance, even though I board Sunshine in Auggie and change to JTA at Avenues, I only bought one ticket and it was honored by the other agency.  Is that the purpose of this regional panel?  Or one of them?  And now that I'm thinking of it, I am surprised Sunshine and Clay Transit don't stop picking up at the county line and run straight to Rosa Parks ... I would think that would be a full ride at least once a day. 

Quote from: simms3 on May 17, 2013, 05:30:39 PM
...There are folks who won't get on any bus just like there are folks who will never ditch their car for any form of alternative transportation, but there is a demographic difference between folks that use city buses in the south and folks commuting in from suburbs on MCIs, and the latter resembles choice riders of a rail system more than captured riders on city buses (in fact MCI fares are often higher than rail fares).

While they may 'resemble' the riders on a rail system, the fact remains that many times those numbers will ride rail and not touch a city bus or express motor coach. in the ridership game, when all things are equal, rail consistently crushes the competition.

QuoteI'm sure SJC and Clay have great systems, heavily used and all (JTA's system is one of the most sparsely used in the country), but do you think they adequately help people commute from their exurban counties into Duval? 

As a matter of fact they do help. The problem in St. Johns or Clay is that the average person doesn't know they even have transit. For theses who know, the interchanges at The Avenues and Orange Park Mall work very well.

QuoteI'd rather see strings of MCIs going down HOV lanes on 95 than invest hundreds of millions on a rail system that will be used by hundreds, maybe a few thousand, and likely not spur that much economic development (just guessing from the investment side that it wouldn't draw much interest).

"...by hundreds, maybe a few thousand..." So lets assume that the system hits a high note of 3,000 daily riders, with a maximum seating of 57 per MCI, you would prefer us having 53 motor coaches on the road every morning and every evening. Capital cost somewhere in the neighborhood of $34 million dollars for 53 motor coaches, but that isn't really much of a concern - it's the 53 drivers that are going to cost us, and that isn't going away anything soon.

Either way, neither will make a dent in the daily traffic count, so it comes down to 3,000 people stuck on a coach, stuck in traffic, or 3,000 people on rail cars, moving at 79 mph.

If you seek to relieve those 53 coaches of traffic by employment of true gold standard BRT/HOV or Lexus Lanes, then your capital costs shoot skyward to the neighborhood of rail. The difference is rail will last you for 50-100 years, pavement punished by heavy vehicles about 10 years.

Lastly, national experience has shown that rail stations tend to be the epicenter of new vibrant growth, so far only the Silver Line BRT in Cleveland can lay claim to that type of development. The Silver Line is feed by light rail and the largely unpublished fact is about 80% of all 'growth' is in government services. If you want to claim Cleveland has obtained rail-like results with BRT, then the formula is to build gold standard BRT, follow that with a few dozen federal, state, county and city offices and publicize a 'smashing TOD success.'

If you REALLY want to see success with motor coaches, use them as pre-rail express buses, as rail feeders, and most of all, routes like JTB, BEACH, ATLANTIC/ARLINGTON EXPRESSWAY, MIDDLEBURG/ARGYLE...ETC.

The line in Cleveland is the Health Line. The "TOD" is in University Circle, which includes multiple medical campuses, major museums and universities. That area also has two heavy rail stops. I have a hard time calling new dormitories, hospital bed expansions (is BMC's new tower a TOD because it's near the Skyway?) TOD. I'll provide a more detailed response in a few weeks. In June, i'll be staying in a hotel in University Circle and I'm using both rail and bus to get around during my three days in town.

BTW, I tend to view the Health Line project more as a complete or context sensitive streets project than BRT. The complete Euclid Avenue corridor was rebuilt to include dedicated bus lanes, bike lanes, wide sidewalks, landscaping and fiber optics. A road diet was done to accommodate this but the costs were something like $25M per mile. That's like building a modern streetcar line.

Guess old habits die hard... Guess I'll always see it as the 'Silver Line' which fits nicely with their Red, Blue and Green Lines.

Just went over the BRT score card with JTA's new MAX service and came up with a score of 51 (at best) meaning it falls in the 'BASIC BRT' level, below gold, silver and bronze. The Achilles Heel of BRT is going to be the sales pitch that tries to convince the public that they are getting 'light rail' at an amazingly low cost. The reality check that follows will leave a bitter taste when it fails to 'be light rail.'

^Yeah, that's a sales pitch that sets you up for failure.  We're getting what was implemented in Kansas City and Las Vegas, not Cleveland or Pittsburgh. 

A reliable and easy to understand bus corridor.  Nothing wrong with the concept.  We've just had years of a bad sales pitch and questionable route planning.

Tampa's MetroRapid BRT (similar to what is planned here) starts service next week

Quote from: thelakelander on May 19, 2013, 07:19:31 PM
^Yeah, that's a sales pitch that sets you up for failure.  We're getting what was implemented in Kansas City and Las Vegas, not Cleveland or Pittsburgh. 

A reliable and easy to understand bus corridor.  Nothing wrong with the concept.  We've just had years of a bad sales pitch and questionable route planning.

Absolutely true Lake.

If I was planning this thing, the northern route would use Pearl to Gateway, I like the rest of that route. The bus route should terminate at JIA and by using that 'back door' to the airport it would touch the free trade zone which should open more jobs to the carless.

Its the southern route that I take issue with. Philips is somewhat industrial but there is far more employment along streets like Baymeadows Way. My best scenario for the southern route would be to scrap it and head east on Arlington Expressway all the way to the beaches.

Actually as I've stated before I'd actually add more BRT then JTA has planned. A 'Freeway Flyer' (a good name JTA once used)  over the Acosta then south on I-95 to JTB or Baymeadows, and hence east to job/retail/dining/apartment clusters, ultimately terminating at the Beach. Making broad use of the Freeways as a tool to jump ahead from downtown to the target burbs. There is also merit in a route straight down the curb lane of San Jose, all the way to Julington Creek Plantation.

If funding could be obtained I could see JTA servicing Julington Plantation... that route could easily be the BRT. Otherwise I would encourage what I call 'Lollipop Routes,' where Sunshine Bus would stop at the Avenues interchange then head downtown NON STOP to the transit center. Likewise a JTA route would stop at the Avenues then head non-stop into central St. Augustine, in both cases there is a long stem, then a short turnaround at the end points.

Call me elitist but I've only ever paid to ride a bus to get to/from fixed route transit, or to move within the same neighborhood when the weather is bad. Or when I'm in Europe.

Quote from: Ocklawaha on May 18, 2013, 11:30:25 PM
Guess old habits die hard... Guess I'll always see it as the 'Silver Line' which fits nicely with their Red, Blue and Green Lines.

QuoteRTA owns and operates the RTA Rapid Transit rail system (better known as "The Rapid"), which consists of one heavy rail line (the Red Line) and two interurban light rail lines (the Blue, Green and light-rail Waterfront extension line). The bulk of RTA's service consists of buses, including regular routes, express or flyer buses, loop and paratransit buses. In

Naming rights for the line were purchased by the Cleveland Clinic and University Hospitals for twenty-five years. The BRT route, originally named the "Silver Line", which serves the two major health industry employers in Cleveland, is named the HealthLine.

"JUST LIKE RAIL ONLY CHEAPER?"

(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/Transporte%20Bus%20Truck%20HIGHWAY/ScreenShot2013-05-18at112702PM_zpsaaa5bbb2.png)

I took a few trips on both the HealthLine BRT and Red Line last week.  I'll have a full story and lots of pictures ready to go on the front page this Thursday.  All I'll say is, you guys may need to flesh out the definition of "rapid".  Heading out of Cleveland, it took us 40 minutes to go six miles between downtown and University Circle.  My poor friend from Baltimore remarked that the bus ride was longer than her scheduled flight time back to the East Coast.  I think if we had to do it again, my group would have pooled together cash and caught a taxi.

Here's an image from our crowded bus.  Although we had signal priority, we had to wait at some intersections like this, where left turn drivers had blocked our movement.

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Transit/Cleveland-Health-Line-BRT/i-q4BhMpj/0/L/IMG_20130612_170702-L.jpg)

Riding the Red Line....
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Transit/Cleveland-Health-Line-BRT/i-k48r42k/0/M/P1640306-M.jpg)

Quote from: chrsjrcj on May 16, 2013, 05:31:26 PM

Quote from: simms3 on May 16, 2013, 03:31:25 PM

Quote from: thelakelander on May 16, 2013, 03:13:59 PM
What makes the Seattle SLUT (or whatever they are calling it now) a success and all these other systems failures? It certainly isn't ridership. The Skyway gets double the daily ridership. To me, the greatest thing about the SLUT, and half of these other systems, is their ability to encourage infill growth and development.

Perhaps you're right about SLUT because most of the development in that area is arguably not due to the trolley, though 2,500 riders on 1.3 miles is in a sense comparable to 5,400 riders on 2.5 miles, and SLUT charges $2.50/ride whilst the Skyway is free.

But, I still think Tri-Rail, Capital Metrorail, and Nashville Star among other commuter rail systems are failures.  They are a waste.  If we can dramatically change land use and zoning and gather the political support from the community to incorporate complete streets and limit sprawl growth (all of which Portland did), then I'd sing a different tune.  For now, I just want to see a really good transit line put in so that we can use it as a shining beacon...I do not want to spend money, time or effort on a system that won't be a good public example that allows us to leverage increased political will for more transit and better zoning/planning.

(Long time lurker here)

I completely disagree about Tri-Rail, and you cannot place it in the same camp as the Nashville Star and Capital Metrorail. South Florida is completely sprawled out between Jupiter and Homestead, a completely different environment than Austin and Nashville where people drive to downtown in the morning and to the suburbs in the afternoon. Tri-Rail serves West Palm Beach, Boca Raton, Cypress Creek, Fort Lauderdale, and Miami (via Metrorail) and have a number of people originating or detraining there throughout the day. It's probably one of the most unique metro areas in the United States based on that aspect. Ridership has bounced back after the financial crisis, carrying a record amount of passengers last year. Service this year expanded to hourly weekend service, and there are plans to run additional trains on the Florida East Coast line through downtowns, in addition to the current service along I-95.

Good point about Tri-Rail.  It definitely has more in common with a system like the TRE, between Dallas and Fort Worth, than Capital Metrorail or the Music City Star.

QuoteAs far as Jacksonville, St. Augustine to Jacksonville makes the most sense at the moment. The Florida East Coast is a well maintained railroad, and is now very interested in passenger rail on there track (Amtrak, AAF, and Tri-Rail). Capital cost would probably be the lowest of all the routes proposed because of the well maintained tracks. Add some sidings, build stations, buy equipment, and voila! It might not even be a bad idea to have the line go all the way down to Bunnell (Palm Coast). Extend the Palm Coast Parkway west to the FEC ROW for your Palm Coast stop. Unfortunately, there aren't a lot of people between St. Augustine and I-295, and St. Augustine and Palm Coast.

I just wonder, what happens to this concept's feasibility if there's BRT on Philips between DT and Avenues Mall and AAF actually expands to Jax with a similar styled service they're proposing between Miami and Orlando?

QuoteThe southwest line to Green Cove Springs is also very appealing population density wise, but CSX would probably be much more demanding.

The solution here is to pay the party pooper and punch bowl pisser to stay home. If it were up to me, I'd outright attempt to purchase the A-Line from CSX so they would just go away.  With complete control over that line, you could get pretty creative with that corridor.