St. Augustine commission supports commuter rail to Jacksonville

[FSBA]

Having no Buckman Bridge equivalent really cuts that design at the knees. No one who takes the Buckman Bridge to work is going to give that design a 2nd look if they're forced to go all the way to downtown to switch trains.

[thelakelander]

I doubt ridership numbers would be anywhere near high enough to justify a bridge crossing. A Skyway will TOD at all of its existing stations will generate more ridership than some of the proposed corridors. How about an east/west express bus to connect the lines? That way, one would not have to go downtown to get from point A to B.

[John P]

If its getting support now I guess we can look for it to be online in 2028

[tufsu1]

While I'm all for regional planning and transportation linkages, I am not a proponent of this at this time.

this isn't getting built tomorrow....there is at least 5 years of studies and design still to go....and then the money needs to be allocated....at best, service wouldn't start until at least 2020.

Given that, are you still opposed?

[tufsu1]

as top the bridge crossing issue mentioned above, the Tampa Bay area is looking at that right now.....replacing one span of the I-275 Howard Frankland Bridge and providing accomodation for rail is expected to cost over $1 Billion.

that's likely more than the whole commuter rail system proposed by JTA would cost 

[fsujax]

well DOT will be adding express lanes on the Buckman bridge in the future and hopefully will let express buses use them. I do not see any kind of rail crossing there in my lifetime.

[JeffreyS]

Having no Buckman Bridge equivalent really cuts that design at the knees. No one who takes the Buckman Bridge to work is going to give that design a 2nd look if they're forced to go all the way to downtown to switch trains.

While true, no transit system is set up to accommodate everyone.  Over time what happens is people's living and working choices are made with taking advantage of transit routes in mind. 

[simms3]

While I'm all for regional planning and transportation linkages, I am not a proponent of this at this time.

this isn't getting built tomorrow....there is at least 5 years of studies and design still to go....and then the money needs to be allocated....at best, service wouldn't start until at least 2020.

Given that, are you still opposed?

Yes.  I think commuter rail is mostly a waste in every city its done outside of NY-NJ, Chicago, Boston, Philadelphia, and SF.  I also think Tri-Rail is a waste - latest figures are 14,300 avg weekday riders over 72 miles (200 riders per mile).  I don't care how cheap it is to build relative to inner city light rail, streetcars, or especially heavy rail, it's still a waste in my book.

If Jax leadership and people were as progressive as those in Portland and literally wanted to turn a whole new direction and redo basically the whole city from zoning down to transit, I wouldn't question plans and transit routes as much.  But this is Jacksonville, which is totally lost on whether it actually wants transit, it doesn't really need rail transit, and it has horrible political backing locally and federally.  So, while I would be for a well-planned transit system that can actually be an economic generator (a lightly used commuter rail line WON'T be), I am against any plan that I deem a waste.

Look at the Nashville Star for example (or Capital MetroRail in Austin!).

[icarus]

I think the focus needs to be on practical solutions to real problems, i.e. inner city transportation. I have to agree with simms3 in that it would take a new caliber of leadership than what we are used to here and commitment from same.

[thelakelander]

While I'm all for regional planning and transportation linkages, I am not a proponent of this at this time.

this isn't getting built tomorrow....there is at least 5 years of studies and design still to go....and then the money needs to be allocated....at best, service wouldn't start until at least 2020.

Given that, are you still opposed?

Yes.  I think commuter rail is mostly a waste in every city its done outside of NY-NJ, Chicago, Boston, Philadelphia, and SF.  I also think Tri-Rail is a waste - latest figures are 14,300 avg weekday riders over 72 miles (200 riders per mile).  I don't care how cheap it is to build relative to inner city light rail, streetcars, or especially heavy rail, it's still a waste in my book.

If Jax leadership and people were as progressive as those in Portland and literally wanted to turn a whole new direction and redo basically the whole city from zoning down to transit, I wouldn't question plans and transit routes as much.  But this is Jacksonville, which is totally lost on whether it actually wants transit, it doesn't really need rail transit, and it has horrible political backing locally and federally.  So, while I would be for a well-planned transit system that can actually be an economic generator (a lightly used commuter rail line WON'T be), I am against any plan that I deem a waste.

Look at the Nashville Star for example (or Capital MetroRail in Austin!).

I don't know that I'd call either a failure at this point, especially Austin's. How much TOD has Capital MetroRail in Austin been responsible for?  The amount of new construction generated along the corridor has most likely already exceeded the cost to construct that system. The gulf is only going to grew as the community ages and infills around this new transportation corridor.

As for commuter rail and Jax, I would keep my eyes out on what happens with Amtrak and All Aboard Florida going forward.  There may be situations where the expansion of those services into our region significantly impact plans currently being considered.

[thelakelander]

I think the focus needs to be on practical solutions to real problems, i.e. inner city transportation. I have to agree with simms3 in that it would take a new caliber of leadership than what we are used to here and commitment from same.

Great point about inner city transportation.  A strong argument can be made that our existing mass transit system should be modified and contracted to better serve as smaller, denser area of town instead of providing uniform poor service to a more spread out area.

[simms3]

^^^I have never heard the word TOD thrown around when it comes to development in Austin and while real estate folks in most cities love to tout transit and throw around words like TOD, Austin is without these tranist-enthusiastic words and I have personally heard private sector leaders' distaste for what they deem as a failed system.  New development in Austin is far away from the rail line.  Even the local papers have come out with articles basically asking "where's the transit oriented development?".  It's a failure by all accounts and it has taken a toll on transit political will in the city.

[thelakelander]

Hmm. We ran an article about their system when it opened a few years back.  What do they call these?







Here's a link with images of other projects there: http://www.capmetro.org/uploadedFiles/Capmetroorg/Future_Plans/Transit-Oriented_Development/asg_insert.pdf

[fsujax]

Austin's CapMetro is doing fine.

http://www.statesman.com/news/news/local/capital-metro-seeing-higher-ridership-for-bus-ra-1/nRNJ2/

http://www.capmetro.org/news-item.aspx?id=1953

[icarus]

TOD is a fantastic concept but I think development if any along the new Sun Rail in the Orlando corridor would be a better comparison for our purposes albeit premature as its not completed.

The problem is Jacksonville has not planned for or executed on a transportation plan that promotes smart growth or creates opportunities for development of new TOD.  Extending the people mover to Brooklyn or the Shipyards is not enough to promote real development changes beyond a few downtown parcels.

How do we plan for a system that serves the biggest constituency and promotes use of mass transit over automobile? How do you reverse decades of lack of planning on our City's part?