Jville's Brooklyn Renaissance: Planning for the Future
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Development/newsforjax-video-banners/i-XkP6M8D/0/O/joshonnews4jaxbanner.jpg)
Joshua Taylor of Metrojacksonville discusses the importance of transportation planning in the redevelopment of Riverside Avenue in J'villes Brooklyn District. Filmed in Partnership with News4Jax. Join us after the jump for what is sure to be a hotly debated topic.
Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2013-apr-jvilles-brooklyn-renaissance-planning-for-the-future
Great Job Josh.
Very nice Josh. I love how the river is center to most of these projects. Cummer, YMCA, heck the picture of the Main St. bridge. How would you like to kayak Downtown and we can put in at Sydney Geffen Park that still needs a Mayor Brown kayak logo and in a future report of yours you can make the statement. " Joshua Taylor for Metrojacksonville.com reporting from the river and why we are Downtown and your not."
Excellent thoughts. We can only hope that this type of exposure will catch the attention of those in charge of creating a plan for transit in Brooklyn.
I don't think the new developments in Brooklyn will in any way lead to gridlock....keep in mind that Riverside Avenue was recently widened to 6 lanes and a new I-95 interchange built at Forrest Street.
and wasn't Riverside Avenue 2 lanes at the time? A 6-lane road has much more capacity
The newly widened roadway is much, much different than it was back in the day. It functions much better now than it used to.
I agree those neighbors should be speaking up about these issues and seriously consider mass transit improvements vs. adding more parking or additional capacity on roads.
Quote from: stephendare on April 30, 2013, 10:57:25 AM
I personally think this is a miraculous change for the area, but I do think that it is seriously time that Riverside Avondale lead the rest of the city in implementing a legitimate mass transit system.
You'll get no argument from me on that. I think that extending the Skyway to the new developments in Brooklyn is a no-brainer. I was just pointing at that traffic on the road is better than it was back in the day. That being said, these new developments will obviously add more traffic to the area. Providing a transit option that would directly service these new residents would help to keep some of these vehicles off the road.
The current setup of Riverside Ave should serve sufficiently for a long time. Public transit was always supposed to be part of the picture. As Brooklyn starts to come back it's high time that piece is finally included.
No, these developments won't lead to vehicular gridlock in area. The main thing about the Skyway and mass transit that is being overlooked in the Brooklyn discussion the economic development component and its relationship with the overall strategy to bring vibrancy back to downtown. We're never going to have a truly vibrant pedestrian scale downtown district if we continue to ignore the impact of mass transit connectivity between urban neighborhoods.
For example, when these Brooklyn developments are completed, they will become isolated zones of pedestrian scale activity. They have their own residential base, commercial components, parks and thousands of office workers literally across the street. However, that neighborhood alone, won't be large enough to keep its commercial uses (ex. restaurants, grocery store, pharmacy, etc.) open. Their actual market will also rely on the residential and workforce population from surrounding areas like the North and Southbank. Skyway connectivity, actually allows people to live in various subdistricts of downtown and have direct access to Brooklyn's commercial infill without the need to get in a car and drive the extra mile.
For Brooklyn, Skyway connectivity allows its residents to have direct access to cultural attractions, nightlife, employment centers, businesses, etc. in the Northbank and Southbank, without the need of driving. Ignoring mass transit connectivity with Brooklyn's developments pretty much means we're content on having new infill in Brooklyn compete with the rest of downtown as it's own isolated spot of urban activity. It also means, we're perfectly content with them not helping one another work together to advance the concept of urban livability in the core.
This doesn't make a lot of sense and is quite the opposite of the goal to revitalize downtown. Heck, having to drive to the grocery, despite staying in some location like the Carling or Strand is the exact opposite of why people are generally attracted to urban living in the first place.
People think that a few hundred units in this area may create a traffic issue? I know this sort of infill is a "new experience" for Jacksonville, woooo, but there are neighboring cities that have done this on much larger scale and dealt with whatever traffic issues may or may not have been created. I say...no traffic issues will result. This is still very small scale development and as Jax grows, people just need to suck it up and get used to more traffic...wherever. Brooklyn will always be devoid of cars except during rush hour. A Fresh Market won't even change that (we're talking 6 lanes here people!)
Quote from: stephendare on April 30, 2013, 11:27:07 AM
I agree with you on every point except for your first, and there I think, history and I both disagree with it ;).
Those "sharrows" are going to look mighty dispensable as that area gets up and running. Especially around the bend on Riverside.
But aside from the obvious traffic dispersal, benefits, connectivity is in itself a thing to be pursued!
Riverside and Avondale would be so very well served by establishing and pursuing a walkable, connective neighborhood policy built around the transit basis upon which it was originally designed.
Simms3 is right. History doesn't agree with you either. Nevertheless, reality says your disagreement isn't enough to overturn the influence of public policy and transportation planning models on public transportation funding. You'll never see a streetcar or Skyway extension locally if you're going to use solving roadway congestion as your main argument for their investment. The Wendell Cox guys of the industry will eat you alive. Quite frankly, mass transit isn't going to have a significant impact on roadway congestion if you keep allowing auto oriented uses in other areas. This argument is just as valid as JTA claiming BRT will be just like LRT but on rubber wheels.
A Skyway to Brooklyn doesn't relieve congestion (there is no congestion right now to warrant roadway expansion...I can provide you with all the technical numbers you need) on Park or Riverside because the majority of your auto trips aren't originating in Brooklyn and those 600 units aren't going to really change the number of commutes originating from places like Orange Park, Argyle, Cedar Hills, Lake Shore, etc.
What we've seen over the last couple of decades is smaller communities like Jacksonville, Milwaukee, Salt Lake City, etc. aren't investing in short distance urban circulators (like streetcars or the Skyway) to alleviate arterial roadway congestion. They are making the financial investment because of other reasons, such as stimulating infill economic development activity, quality-of-life enhancements, health planning, financial sustainability, offering residents multimodal choice, etc. These places are setting themselves up to offer an environment where their residents have the freedom of choice to safely and efficiently get around their community without being forced to use a car. Long term, there's massive money to be made in terms of tax dollars saved, jobs created, new millennial/retiring baby boomer-based economic development, tax rolls increased via higher infill density, etc. by becoming multimodal friendly urban settings.
As far as the sharrows thing, that's as simple as doing a lane diet on a roadway such as Park, to provide dedicated lane width for the bike mode. This is something that should be mandatory regardless of traffic congestion on major roadways. Hopefully, Councilwoman Boyer's context sensitive streets policy work will take care of this city-wide.
I'm not all that old but I do remember when traffic was worse on Riverside than it is today. Since the widening the traffic has been much better and it's unlikely a few hundred new people and a grocery store is going to return it to its former condition. Of course there will be more traffic, but the current setup should do for a long long time. As others have said the purpose of adding transit options shouldn't be just to reduce traffic.
Quote from: stephendare on April 30, 2013, 12:17:38 PM
Both Park Street and Riverside Avenue were gridlocked hells for that hour or so every night after work.
And Im not understanding what you are saying Lake.
Are you championing the idea that transit and bike lanes will not alleviate the vehicular traffic flow during peak hours?
^Yes. The majority of peak hour traffic on those streets isn't originating in the neighborhoods they directly impact. Sort of like I-95 has a direct negative impact on Sugar Hill and LaVilla but the majority of the highway's users live outside those neighborhoods. Things like bike lanes, better sidewalks, etc. will help with neighborhood livability and bike/ped safety but they aren't going to take the Cedar Hills guy driving his SUV off Park Street.
Quote from: Tacachale on April 30, 2013, 12:27:59 PM
I'm not all that old but I do remember when traffic was worse on Riverside than it is today. Since the widening the traffic has been much better and it's unlikely a few hundred new people and a grocery store is going to return it to its former condition. Of course there will be more traffic, but the current setup should do for a long long time. As others have said the purpose of adding transit options shouldn't be just to reduce traffic.
The largest impact on the reduction of congestion on Riverside Avenue in Brooklyn is the shrinking of downtown Jacksonville's employment base over the last 30 years.
I remember the old Riverside Ave, and poking along on it heading south in middle school carpool, LoL. I also remember the news articles from the local media touting the "new" Riverside Ave to be built as creating the next Brickell Ave...I have clippings back home (I was a real nerd).
I'm young, but having been gone from Jax now for the past 7 years, my perspective on what actually constitutes "traffic" and "congestion" and large scale development and gentrification, etc has totally changed. It just takes a lot more to phase me, I guess. Riverside is a throughway for the remaining Ortega/Avondale folks who still work downtown, and as has been stated and proven with numbers, DT employment has shrunk and roads to have been widened, simultaneously.
I'm just glad nobody in Jax planning/development is trying to create the next Brickell Ave...what a disaster for urban scale and urban vibrancy that turned out to be!
From my view, I could care less about what benefit is most compelling in a Metro Jacksonville discussion. My ultimate concern would be what's the proper angle to get things changed at the institutional level, which directly funnels into public policy and funding priorities. This is the reason, I'd always debate Ock on the need for a streetcar looping around downtown instead of first doing a straight line bi-directional route that actually penetrates adjacent neighborhoods.
Thinking about a 'rubbernecking' phenomenon on a recently widened 6' lane highway with 12' wide through lanes and a wide median isn't going to result in anything other than thinking. Also, capacity does matter if you're arguing gridlock and congestion as a reason for more public funding to be shifted to alternative forms transit. That's just the world we live and operate in. Capacity isn't going to be an issue in Brooklyn with the new Riverside and Forest Street improvements. Capacity will become more of an issue for Park & Riverside, south of I-10 as the westside and Clay County continue to grow and the Riverside area redensifies. However, the Skyway was never going to be expanded south of Forest Street anyway.
Presently, you have a better chance of advancing multimodal enhancements going the route of mobility choice, safety, sustainability, economic development, and neighborhood revitalization. Don't believe me? Just look at every new streetcar project funded in second tier American cities over the last decade. Benefiting from TOD is at the top of their list of compelling reasons for funding short fixed urban circulator projects. Locally, take a look at the context sensitive streets policy moving forward. That's not being driven by roadway congestion and fears of 'rubbernecking'. That's being driven by our national headline grabbing pedestrian and bicycle death rates.
Don't get me wrong. No where did I state that transit planning does not or should not exist.
QuoteLol. then why does it sound like such an annoying afterthough? Like taking beano or something?
It shouldn't sound that way to anyone involved in transportation planning. You've got to look well outside of this particular neighborhood before you can settle on the right solutions since no mode works well independently of the other.
I'll admit, I may have skipped a few steps in explaining how things work and tossed some terms on concepts out there that the average person may not be familiar with. Nevertheless, technically speaking, the infill developments in Brooklyn aren't going to create roadway capacity/vehicular flow issues strong enough to warrant public dollars for fixed transit improvements. On the other hand, there are significant urban living quality-of-life issues at play when it comes to downtown revitalization.
BTW, what's the density issue with Balanky's project? There aren't enough details to pigeon hole one's self one way or the other at this point.
Quote from: thelakelander on April 30, 2013, 04:17:46 PM
BTW, what's the density issue with Balanky's project? There aren't enough details to pigeon hole one's self one way or the other at this point.
These density concerns have me a little amused, as do the fears of congestion. The large majority of people start walking, riding bikes and transit
when driving becomes a pain in the rear. It seems that some are wanting the virtures of a walkable neighborhood minus the economic system that makes it viable. Density IS the food that keeps transit alive.
Looking at how times have changed, my mom was raised with her nine siblings in a small four bedroom house. Now, we have couples with no kids living in similar spaces.
One thing any Jaxson should keep in the back of their head is that nearly every single urban core neighborhood has a current population that's 50% less than what it was in 1950. For the most part, every sizable parking lot you see in our older neighborhoods most likely had a building with multiple people living or working in it prior to WWII. That's in addition to our existing structures which once supported larger/multiple households. So be careful when attempting to label the scale of what our core neighborhoods and current infrastructure can actually support.
^Thus the reason behind the mobility plan's land use policies to encourage higher density along existing and proposed transit corridors and that infill development directly funneling money to fund the multimodal solutions.
Interesting to say the least.
Quote from: stephendare on April 30, 2013, 04:54:22 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on April 30, 2013, 04:48:19 PM
^Thus the reason behind the mobility plan's land use policies to encourage higher density along existing and proposed transit corridors and that infill development directly funneling money to fund the multimodal solutions.
which is the entire point of the video. ;)
What I just explained was designed at a citywide level. If what I quoted was the point, it was lost because of the site context the discussion focused on. Brooklyn and downtown are exempt from the mobility plan and fee system and an extension of the Skyway isn't supported by the models the mobility plan/fee were based upon.
Yes. Brooklyn has always been exempt because the city considers it a part of downtown and it's already operating under a TCEA created years ago. The area exempt from paying anything since day one is bounded by State (north), the river/JEA property (east), and I-95 (west/south). This area will be included in the DIA's CRA plan they have to create later this year.
Quote from: stephendare on April 30, 2013, 05:19:05 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on April 30, 2013, 05:01:14 PM
Thus the reason behind the mobility plan's land use policies to encourage higher density along existing and proposed transit corridors and that infill development directly funneling money to fund the multimodal solutions.
Im assuming that we both agree that the bold highlighted words are the subject of the sentence?
Yes, assuming this statement is dealing with the side conversation regarding Balanky's project miles south on Fishweir Creek. It was made in response to the proposed Avondale project, see below:
Quote from: stephendare on April 30, 2013, 04:43:25 PM
Quote from: dougskiles on April 30, 2013, 04:24:35 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on April 30, 2013, 04:17:46 PM
BTW, what's the density issue with Balanky's project? There aren't enough details to pigeon hole one's self one way or the other at this point.
These density concerns have me a little amused, as do the fears of congestion. The large majority of people start walking, riding bikes and transit when driving becomes a pain in the rear. It seems that some are wanting the virtures of a walkable neighborhood minus the economic system that makes it viable. Density IS the food that keeps transit alive.
I dont think there is a fear of 'congestion', doug.
The point is that congestion plus no walkable or transit oriented infrastructure is not a desirable situation.
Quote from: thelakelander on April 30, 2013, 04:48:19 PM
^Thus the reason behind the mobility plan's land use policies to encourage higher density along existing and proposed transit corridors and that infill development directly funneling money to fund the multimodal solutions.
That wasn't in reference to extending the Skyway to St. Johns Park or strengthening connectivity between Brooklyn and downtown's historical heart (the Northbank).
Quote from: stephendare on April 30, 2013, 04:43:25 PM
I dont think there is a fear of 'congestion', doug.
The point is that congestion plus no walkable or transit oriented infrastructure is not a desirable situation.
so you're implying there is no pedestrian infrastructure along Riverside Avenue?
Quote from: stephendare on May 01, 2013, 12:51:15 AM
Quote from: tufsu1 on April 30, 2013, 10:54:09 PM
Quote from: stephendare on April 30, 2013, 04:43:25 PM
I dont think there is a fear of 'congestion', doug.
The point is that congestion plus no walkable or transit oriented infrastructure is not a desirable situation.
so you're implying there is no pedestrian infrastructure along Riverside Avenue?
implying hell.
The problem I see with Riverside Avenue regarding pedestrians (and I assume we are talking about the portions east of Forest Street) has more to do with the type of development on the south side of the road than the sidewalk infrastructure. After the YMCA is rebuilt along the river, there won't be a single building that promotes pedestrian activity on the street. And even the current layout of the YMCA is questionable because you have to walk down the side street to get to the entrance.
Then there is the issue of making a pedestrian connection from Riverside Ave to downtown. The Acosta bridge ramps make it seem like you might as well be on the other side of the county. And that is where the Brooklyn Skyway stop comes into play.
^Pretty much.
For the intents of the video update and the title of this thread, the topic focuses on the new developments in Brooklyn, which all happen to be north of Forest Street. Both Forest and Riverside Avenue are recently widened six lane roads that already include wide sidewalks, bike lanes, easily identifiable crosswalks, lighting and landscaping to support denser infill development and growth in the immediate area. There will be no roadway congestion from these infill developments.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/453365348_QuTFX-M.jpg)
Riverside Avenue, north of Forest Street.Taking a step back, have we asked ourselves why people like living in urban core environments across america?
QuoteIn many American cities, people are moving back into downtowns, defined by the U.S. Census Bureau as within a two-mile radius of City Hall. Data from the 2010 census (PDF) said that 16 million people, or about 6% of America's 258 million metro-area population, were living in downtowns.
http://inamerica.blogs.cnn.com/2012/09/27/downtown-living-in-vogue-census-says/
Have we asked ourselves why across the country, people are willing to pay more for less space to live in an area with high densities? Some of these promotional quotes from across the country may provide answers:
IndianapolisQuoteLiving Downtown provides convenient, walkable access to the city’s best restaurants, performing arts, entertainment, sports, museums and parks. It means skipping the daily commute and suburban traffic jams and having time after work for family, friends and fun.
Leave your car behind and let your feet take you where you want to go.
http://www.indydt.com/livebackgrounder.cfm
From a DT Salt Lake City Resident:QuoteThe title of this post should really be: Why I live(and love) Downtown and so should you.And....stop judging me for how much I payed for my condo, acting surprised if I tell the average sq ft for the neighborhood and look as though I must have lost my mind. THEN gasp again when I tell you I have a husband, child, a dog, a garden and that we are a one car family.(then you usually shake your head and tell me I will move when I come to my senses) and by the way you have to go so you don't catch traffic.
Since that title is well, impossible in SO many ways we'll just stick to the more print-worthy one above.
I would like a chance to explain, if not defend my choice to spend more on my location and neighborhood than maybe you suburbanites may have and maybe even make a case as to how I may be out-cheaping you in the end.
For a minute lets assume that all things are equal. That you too can walk out of your front door and within minutes(and by minutes I mean 5--without a car) be walking into the doors of a children's museum, a planetarium, a library, 2 malls, dozens of restaurants, a movie theater, FREE public transit, the grocery store, an NBA game, 2 live theaters, a symphony, the farmers market, a train to the airport, YOUR JOB. And let's leave out another intangible: the TIME in your day that you travel to get to that sprawling home you payed so little for.
full comparison: http://www.saltlakeurbanite.com/2012/04/why-i-live-downtownand-so-should-you.html
St. LouisQuoteWhat makes Downtown, St. Louis such a great place to live? Walkability! Explore our distinct districts and unique neighborhoods. Discover the growing number of nearby shops, restaurants, services and amenities that make downtown living so, well, livable . . . and fun.
http://www.downtownstl.org/Live.aspx
PittsburghQuoteDowntown living. What’s the attraction? For many, the incredible convenience of walking to work is a perfect reason to start. But that’s only the beginning. The views are spectacular. The green spaces, including riverfront trails, are plentiful. Theater, nightlife, great restaurants and exciting sporting events are all within easy walking distance.
http://www.downtownpittsburgh.com/live
Anyone think being able to get around without relying or being forced to drive a car has something to do with it? Do you visit a Manhattan, San Francisco, Portland, New Orleans, Charleston, Savannah or St. Augustine to drive from destination to destination? If walkability is a major reason people are attracted to downtown/urban environments shouldn't it be safe to assume that creating a more attractive and economically viable downtown Jacksonville means enhancing walkability is at the top of the list of things to accomplish?
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Development/Riverside-Park-Revised/i-hgXDhtx/0/M/DDRB%20April%204%202013%20Agenda_Page_52-M.jpg)
This proposed Brooklyn development is located across the street from the JTA Skyway's Operations center.If the major selling point of urban living is being easily accessible to a mix of uses, without the need for a car, how does Brooklyn's infill promote this concept for residents, workers and visitors in the Northbank and Southbank? How does this infill promote this concept for its future residents? Specifically for Brooklyn, these projects resolve the issue by packing hundreds of apartments with 70,000 square feet of retail/dining/grocery, etc., including a better version of the Northbank's Hemming Plaza with programming, all across the street from thousands of existing employment centers. In essence, it becomes its own isolated urban panacea and anyone outside of that particular zone will still be driving to reach services/needs like getting grocery or commodities from the neighborhood pharmacy? For those living in or visiting on the Southbank, these developments have no more impact on their walkability than the Walmart on Philips or Publix in Five Points.
Unfortunately, for the Northbank and Southbank, the amount of retail going into Brooklyn is going to reduce their ability to attract similar uses. This creates a downtown environment where walkability remains a challenge to achieve. If left unchecked, you could create a situation where one sub-district benefits at the expense of another. If your downtown environment doesn't offer great walkability to a mix of uses, what's the selling point again? It sure isn't the public schools, housing stock diversity, historic preservation, parks and parking cost.
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/TRANSIT%20monorail%20and%20Skyway/RobertsFIRSTbirthday001.jpg)
Skyway's existing O&M center across the street from the proposed Brooklyn development shown above.Luckily, there's a easy and affordable way to resolve this issue. It comes in the form of a $184 million, downtown circulator called the Skyway, that already connects the North and Southbanks. Its operations center also already happens to be in Brooklyn, directly across the street from Fuqua's proposed 53,000 retail center and Pollack's proposed 310 apartments. The only thing that needs to be added is the ability to serve passengers at the Operations center. No land acquisition, elevated station, elevators, escalators, lengthy guideway extensions, etc. Accessibility can be achieved going "no-frills" in the form of ground level station similar to what's shown in the image below:
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Transit/Denton-A-Train/i-k4JvZvz/0/M/DSC01576-M.jpg)
Something this simple means, someone can live at the Carling and be a transit stop away from CVS, Walgreens, Fresh Market, Panera Bread or whatever else ends up opening in Brooklyn. It means someone staying at the Southbank's Hilton Garden Inn is now in walking distance of Unity Plaza's 260 annual programmed events. It means, one can live in Brooklyn and work at Everbank, Baptist Medical, Aetna, BOA, Wells Fargo, JEA, COJ, the Duval County Courthouse, etc. and not worry about driving or finding parking. Furthermore, by tying the Skyway into land uses with 24/7 activities, you help grow its ridership numbers to support its existence while simultaneously enhancing development opportunities around its other eight Northbank and Southbank stations.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Transit/Brooklyn-Skyway/i-43PSnNZ/0/M/BrooklynSkywayTempStation-5-M.jpg)
In short, the Brooklyn Skyway access issue isn't about relieving automobile traffic congestion or gridlock. This development/transit issue is about the need to create and promote the concept of a walkable, pedestrian scale downtown where all its sub-districts positively feed off each other's success.
^That most likely is probably the result of a change in public policy a few decades ago, making it more difficult for private uses to penetrate public space. It's very noticeable, not only in Jacksonville, but most in this country. Context Sensitive Streets policies can change this.
Not really. Progress and change happens incrementally, so we're not starting from scratch. As we discover the root of bad policies that have negative impacts on walkability, we have to work to reverse them. Nevertheless, Tapestry Park, Black Sheep, 1661 Riverside, San Marco Square's new park, etc. are all great examples of incremental change that improves walkability. Both of these Brooklyn projects and Unity Plaza will end up adding to that list.
Bringing this back to the Brooklyn Skyway situation, it would be great to have fixed transit all over town. However, it's not laughable to at least establish Skyway service to these developments or move Amtrak back downtown before figuring out how to immediately fund a regional-wide commuter rail, streetcar or LRT system.
Quote from: thelakelander on May 01, 2013, 09:08:32 AM
^Pretty much.
For the intents of the video update and the title of this thread, the topic focuses on the new developments in Brooklyn, which all happen to be north of Forest Street. Both Forest and Riverside Avenue are recently widened six lane roads that already include wide sidewalks, bike lanes, easily identifiable crosswalks, lighting and landscaping to support denser infill development and growth in the immediate area. There will be no roadway congestion from these infill developments.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/453365348_QuTFX-M.jpg)
Riverside Avenue, north of Forest Street.
Taking a step back, have we asked ourselves why people like living in urban core environments across america?
QuoteIn many American cities, people are moving back into downtowns, defined by the U.S. Census Bureau as within a two-mile radius of City Hall. Data from the 2010 census (PDF) said that 16 million people, or about 6% of America's 258 million metro-area population, were living in downtowns.
http://inamerica.blogs.cnn.com/2012/09/27/downtown-living-in-vogue-census-says/
Have we asked ourselves why across the country, people are willing to pay more for less space to live in an area with high densities? Some of these promotional quotes from across the country may provide answers:
Indianapolis
QuoteLiving Downtown provides convenient, walkable access to the city’s best restaurants, performing arts, entertainment, sports, museums and parks. It means skipping the daily commute and suburban traffic jams and having time after work for family, friends and fun.
Leave your car behind and let your feet take you where you want to go.
http://www.indydt.com/livebackgrounder.cfm
From a DT Salt Lake City Resident:
QuoteThe title of this post should really be: Why I live(and love) Downtown and so should you.And....stop judging me for how much I payed for my condo, acting surprised if I tell the average sq ft for the neighborhood and look as though I must have lost my mind. THEN gasp again when I tell you I have a husband, child, a dog, a garden and that we are a one car family.(then you usually shake your head and tell me I will move when I come to my senses) and by the way you have to go so you don't catch traffic.
Since that title is well, impossible in SO many ways we'll just stick to the more print-worthy one above.
I would like a chance to explain, if not defend my choice to spend more on my location and neighborhood than maybe you suburbanites may have and maybe even make a case as to how I may be out-cheaping you in the end.
For a minute lets assume that all things are equal. That you too can walk out of your front door and within minutes(and by minutes I mean 5--without a car) be walking into the doors of a children's museum, a planetarium, a library, 2 malls, dozens of restaurants, a movie theater, FREE public transit, the grocery store, an NBA game, 2 live theaters, a symphony, the farmers market, a train to the airport, YOUR JOB. And let's leave out another intangible: the TIME in your day that you travel to get to that sprawling home you payed so little for.
full comparison: http://www.saltlakeurbanite.com/2012/04/why-i-live-downtownand-so-should-you.html
St. Louis
QuoteWhat makes Downtown, St. Louis such a great place to live? Walkability! Explore our distinct districts and unique neighborhoods. Discover the growing number of nearby shops, restaurants, services and amenities that make downtown living so, well, livable . . . and fun.
http://www.downtownstl.org/Live.aspx
Pittsburgh
QuoteDowntown living. What’s the attraction? For many, the incredible convenience of walking to work is a perfect reason to start. But that’s only the beginning. The views are spectacular. The green spaces, including riverfront trails, are plentiful. Theater, nightlife, great restaurants and exciting sporting events are all within easy walking distance.
http://www.downtownpittsburgh.com/live
Anyone think being able to get around without relying or being forced to drive a car has something to do with it? Do you visit a Manhattan, San Francisco, Portland, New Orleans, Charleston, Savannah or St. Augustine to drive from destination to destination? If walkability is a major reason people are attracted to downtown/urban environments shouldn't it be safe to assume that creating a more attractive and economically viable downtown Jacksonville means enhancing walkability is at the top of the list of things to accomplish?
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Development/Riverside-Park-Revised/i-hgXDhtx/0/M/DDRB%20April%204%202013%20Agenda_Page_52-M.jpg)
This proposed Brooklyn development is located across the street from the JTA Skyway's Operations center.
If the major selling point of urban living is being easily accessible to a mix of uses, without the need for a car, how does Brooklyn's infill promote this concept for residents, workers and visitors in the Northbank and Southbank? How does this infill promote this concept for its future residents? Specifically for Brooklyn, these projects resolve the issue by packing hundreds of apartments with 70,000 square feet of retail/dining/grocery, etc., including a better version of the Northbank's Hemming Plaza with programming, all across the street from thousands of existing employment centers. In essence, it becomes its own isolated urban panacea and anyone outside of that particular zone will still be driving to reach services/needs like getting grocery or commodities from the neighborhood pharmacy? For those living in or visiting on the Southbank, these developments have no more impact on their walkability than the Walmart on Philips or Publix in Five Points.
Unfortunately, for the Northbank and Southbank, the amount of retail going into Brooklyn is going to reduce their ability to attract similar uses. This creates a downtown environment where walkability remains a challenge to achieve. If left unchecked, you could create a situation where one sub-district benefits at the expense of another. If your downtown environment doesn't offer great walkability to a mix of uses, what's the selling point again? It sure isn't the public schools, housing stock diversity, historic preservation, parks and parking cost.
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/TRANSIT%20monorail%20and%20Skyway/RobertsFIRSTbirthday001.jpg)
Skyway's existing O&M center across the street from the proposed Brooklyn development shown above.
Luckily, there's a easy and affordable way to resolve this issue. It comes in the form of a $184 million, downtown circulator called the Skyway, that already connects the North and Southbanks. Its operations center also already happens to be in Brooklyn, directly across the street from Fuqua's proposed 53,000 retail center and Pollack's proposed 310 apartments. The only thing that needs to be added is the ability to serve passengers at the Operations center. No land acquisition, elevated station, elevators, escalators, lengthy guideway extensions, etc. Accessibility can be achieved going "no-frills" in the form of ground level station similar to what's shown in the image below:
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Transit/Denton-A-Train/i-k4JvZvz/0/M/DSC01576-M.jpg)
Something this simple means, someone can live at the Carling and be a transit stop away from CVS, Walgreens, Fresh Market, Panera Bread or whatever else ends up opening in Brooklyn. It means someone staying at the Southbank's Hilton Garden Inn is now in walking distance of Unity Plaza's 260 annual programmed events. It means, one can live in Brooklyn and work at Everbank, Baptist Medical, Aetna, BOA, Wells Fargo, JEA, COJ, the Duval County Courthouse, etc. and not worry about driving or finding parking. Furthermore, by tying the Skyway into land uses with 24/7 activities, you help grow its ridership numbers to support its existence while simultaneously enhancing development opportunities around its other eight Northbank and Southbank stations.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Transit/Brooklyn-Skyway/i-43PSnNZ/0/M/BrooklynSkywayTempStation-5-M.jpg)
In short, the Brooklyn Skyway access issue isn't about relieving automobile traffic congestion or gridlock. This development/transit issue is about the need to create and promote the concept of a walkable, pedestrian scale downtown where all its sub-districts positively feed off each other's success.
Lake, this post alone should be a featured article.
Lake any guess what the cost would be to add a platform for the public to use the Brooklyn Skyway stop? .5 mil or 5mil?
Quote from: Tacachale on May 01, 2013, 09:41:56 AM
Lake, this post alone should be a featured article.
I thought about that after I posted it. Since it probably won't get may hits concealed on page four of this thread, I'll most likely end up doing that in a week or two.
Quote from: JeffreyS on May 01, 2013, 09:44:02 AM
Lake any guess what the cost would be to add a platform for the public to use the Brooklyn Skyway stop? .5 mil or 5mil?
That's probably a question Ock can better answer. I can't imagine it being anywhere close to $5 million. Nashville's entire Music City Star commuter rail line was built at an average of $1.3 million per mile and that included six simple stations, some with park & ride lots. What I'd suggest in terms of "no-frills" station would be something similar to Nashville's simplicity of providing just the basics.
A ground level platform and some fencing along with a couple of glorified bus shelters. I'd be highly surprised if the total 'no-frills' cost approached anything over $1 to 1.5 million. Now once you start adding things like $5,000 palm trees, brick paving, etc, your costs will start to balloon.
Well lets say it is 1 million. I will bet this City Council in hopes of appeasing an angry anti Mobility Fee Reductionatorium crowd could be coerced into heavily contributing to that number. JTA should be looking to do it anyway. There is no reason not to do this. The Brooklyn stop would instantly become the most useful stop both as an origination point and destination point.
I think there is a danger in assuming Brooklyn is *the* route to go for extending the Skyway because of the current developments going up, etc. Maybe it is, maybe it's not, but let's take a step back and look at what we have here:
A few developments going up that are in a nutshell nothing all too special, grandiose, transformative (I think we've already established that traffic or lack thereof won't change), etc. Not trying to downplay the Brooklyn Renaissance in any way, but with almost no political will and no financial way, we've got to be really picky about how we go about public transit/fixed-rail improvements. What's going on in Brooklyn is simply amplified on much larger scale in other cities...even the SS is seeing thousands more rentals UC, albeit in a non-transit-friendly setup.
Let's face it, everyone who moves to Brooklyn will have a car and be able to park for free and will still use their car 99% of the time. Even with a CVS, Fresh Market, YMCA and whatever small shops (Subway, dry cleaner, T-Mobile, etc), the car will be king. I've lived in much denser, much more walkable, much more amenity rich areas in the south and still used my car...it's the south and it's as far from NYC and SF as possible.
So is it best to extend Skyway to Brooklyn to benefit these few hundred units and potentially a few hundred more when totally built out, or is there another area of town with more potential in the long run?
Quote from: JeffreyS on May 01, 2013, 10:22:29 AM
Well lets say it is 1 million. I will bet this City Council in hopes of appeasing an angry anti Mobility Fee Reductionatorium crowd could be coerced into heavily contributing to that number. JTA should be looking to do it anyway. There is no reason not to do this. The Brooklyn stop would instantly become the most useful stop both as an origination point and destination point.
It's probably something that could be worked into the new CRA plan with funding that the DIA will have to create this year, assuming no traction with JTA could be gained.
Quote from: simms3 on May 01, 2013, 10:36:42 AM
I think there is a danger in assuming Brooklyn is *the* route to go for extending the Skyway because of the current developments going up, etc. Maybe it is, maybe it's not, but let's take a step back and look at what we have here:
At this point, there would not be a Skyway extension. You're simply allowing passenger service to be offered at the existing operations center. Any discussion of physically "extending" the Skyway would have to be weighed and evaluated with plans for commuter rail and streetcar that are already a part of the North Florida TPO Long Range Transportation Plan.
QuoteSo is it best to extend Skyway to Brooklyn to benefit these few hundred units and potentially a few hundred more when totally built out, or is there another area of town with more potential in the long run?
Opening passenger service at the Operations site would be beneficial to all of downtown. The connectivity is probably more important to the future of the North and Southbanks than Brooklyn itself. Give me a few minutes and I'll find and post a map of all proposed fixed transit routes in Jacksonville over the next 20 years.
Simms3 it sounds like you are suggesting we do a 2million dollar ridership study before we build a 1million dollar platform. BTW isn't a bus platform going in any way could we combine the two?
^^^You're assuming a lot. As Lake mentioned, it's just a platform rather than an extension, which is what I thought the whole plan/talk was about. Still, who knows what a people mover platform costs, and the costs of integrating this new station into an already overly complex maze of routes/timing? I'm as anti-study in Jax as anyone (btw, I wonder what would be more expensive - hiring competent full-time MBAs to do these things internally, or continuing to 3rd party out to other cities'/companies' full-time MBAs to plan for us, LoL).
Brooklyn's exciting and what not, but also knowing there are limits to everything in Jax (level of excitement, political will, certainly financial capacity), I don't want us to mistakenly devote everything we have to Brooklyn at the expense of a greater impact to a larger thing down the road.
^How much did the new round-a-bout in front of the Landing cost? How much did the Main Street Pocket Park cost? How much money did we successfully keep from being spent when half of council wanted to pay to build a new Monroe Street in front of the new courthouse (this would have been around a $1 million itself)? How much will a new scoreboard at Everbank Field cost? It's hard to argue the financial burden of building a ground level platform, etc. in the name of enhancing downtown livability and revitalization when we have a history of wheeling and dealing things that may have a less ROI for taxpayers.
^Just trying to predict the future a bit here. We spend however much on this platform, 50 people from nearby new rental communities use it occasionally for events, maybe commuting, etc, and we're going to hear about the "waste" forever more. Let's say all ~600 units get built in Brooklyn, the Y, the Fresh Market (which will be drive and shop as it's on the "going home" side of the road for all the Ortega/Avondale commuters), and maybe some other stuff.
How many of the new residents do we think will use the Skyway on the reg? The site of the proposed platform is already a few shadeless, semi-hostile blocks from the only development actually UC...and that's like a Guiness Record walk for anyone in Jax, even an urbanite. Not trying to be a negative nancy, but if I lived in one of these new communities, I, too, would probably use my car as much as possible...and I hate even having a car, don't have one now! Until you can ride the Skyway actually to somewhere useful outside of events going on downtown, there's not much reason to use it...and the headways are long, it's hot outside while you wait, it's slow (not in reality, just seems that way from a rider's perspective bc it doesn't zoom along as fast as a car in between lights), etc.
IF we build it and they don't come...by by Skyway (potentially LRT/Streetcar) forever. It's politics. People don't care that money was wasted on a pocket park or a roundabout. Most people don't even know they exist and don't have this evil thought in their head towards parks and roundabouts like they do against transit.
This North Florida TPO Long Range Transportation Plan (LRTP) map highlights transit projects anticipated to be built between now and 2035. If a project isn't on this list, it most likely will not be able to compete to secure federal funding assistance. Currently, there are no Skyway extensions on this list.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Transit/Roads-and-Bridges/Misc-Jax-Roads/i-6DFxqFF/0/X2/LRTP_summbrochure_Page_4-X2.jpg)
http://www.northfloridatpo.com/images/uploads/general/LRTP_summbrochure.pdf
Nice map, I personally without having any expertise beyond my own experience relying on public transit, think that the long range plan for transit in Jax is the biggest joke I have ever fucking seen.
1) Commuter rail to that extent is laughable, and a waste. Look at the commuter rail we tout on this site, anything less in ridership than Caltrans is a fucking laughable waste, no matter how cheap per mile. The Star in Nashville has 1,000 riders a day...that's worse than the Skyway. Tri-Rail in SoFla is the biggest fucking joke, and I have actually ridden it and relied on it and I'm still saying so (I regret NOT paying $100 for a cab, LoL).
2) BRT galore? More like BRT light, let's be honest. Nobody's going to shelack LRT money for a fancy real BRT system in Jacksonville when the local transit agency doesn't even know how to operate REGULAR busses, ROFLMFAO. We can ask for money from the feds, touting studies, etc...they're going to see our current bus system with no ridership and poles in the ground for stops and laugh their fucking asses off.
Sorry, but as we have FINALLY admitted here on this site recently, there is NO traffic in Jax. Fixed transit will be an economic developer, not a traffic reliever. None of what's on that map matter, none will generate economic development, and not to worry because none will actually even come to fruition.
Can we please learn how to do busses? The South in general (can we talk about MARTA busses too? They fucking suck and there are people that DO rely on them in largish scale). THEN let's talk fixed transit from a traffic relief standpoint.
^^^Right, for daily commuting, though? Also, at some point it will become a point of contention that the system is free. Every other transit system in America is raising rates now on an annual basis (still seeing ridership increase), and even if fare collections account for 30-60% of operations of a system (which is really good), in the most liberal of areas you still have anti-transit folks.
Start expanding the Skyway and keeping it free, and it will become a political 800 lb gorilla in the room. What would ridership be with fare? That's the smell test...and is ridership commuter based or event based? That's the "usefulness" smell test.
Seems like it has been an aggravating morning...
Anywho, I believe the reason the road projects are solid lines and the mass transit projects are dotted lines is because, as simms said, the dotted ones aren't going to happen.
Where is the terminus of the westbound commuter rail? I'm too lazy to click the link and look.
edit: I lied, I'm super industrious. The west route ends in Maccleny. It and the southwest route are only studies within the timeframe of this plan. But if I had $100mil sitting in a shoe under my bed, I would totally donate it for those streetcar lines...
Quote from: simms3 on May 01, 2013, 11:20:31 AM
^Just trying to predict the future a bit here. We spend however much on this platform, 50 people from nearby new rental communities use it occasionally for events, maybe commuting, etc, and we're going to hear about the "waste" forever more.
At this point we know this:
- 600 apartment units
- 70,000 square feet of retail
- Urban park with 260 days of programming
- A new YMCA building on the way
- Two additional pads for additional vertical mixed-use infill development (ex. YMCA, 220 Riverside)
-7,700 employees currently working on Riverside Avenue
You're a real estate guy. All of downtown (includes Brooklyn, Northbank and Southbank) has a residential population of 3,200. The employment population is split between 16,000 in the Northbank, 11,400 in the Southbank and 7,700 on Riverside Avenue. Fuqua is proposing 53,000 square feet of retail next door to the Skyway's operations center to be open by the end of 2014. 220 Riverside has another 18,000 square feet of retail they are bringing to the mix, along with Unity Plaza. What's the chances of something like a grocery or pharmacy opening anywhere else in downtown, once Fuqua brings in his 20,000 square foot grocery anchor and 15,000 square foot CVS? Also, don't forget about the proposed Publix in San Marco or the existing Winn-Dixie on Union Street.
To be honest, most of the trips generated by a Skyway stop in Brooklyn would be from those working, living and staying (hotels) in the Northbank/Southbank that desire access to the 70,000 square feet of commercial/retail/dining that will pop up adjacent to the Skyway's operations center. Because of the lack of these type of commercial venues in the rest of downtown and the fact that they are literally across the street from the Skyway's existing operations center, this sets up to possibly be one of the Skyway's most well used daily stops.
QuoteHow many of the new residents do we think will use the Skyway on the reg? The site of the proposed platform is already a few shadeless, semi-hostile blocks from the only development actually UC...and that's like a Guiness Record walk for anyone in Jax, even an urbanite. Not trying to be a negative nancy, but if I lived in one of these new communities, I, too, would probably use my car as much as possible...and I hate even having a car, don't have one now! Until you can ride the Skyway actually to somewhere useful outside of events going on downtown, there's not much reason to use it...and the headways are long, it's hot outside while you wait, it's slow (not in reality, just seems that way from a rider's perspective bc it doesn't zoom along as fast as a car in between lights), etc.
Skyway's headways are between 3 to 7 minutes. It's been that way for years now. Also, the operations center is at Leila and Riverside Avenue. Fuqua's 53,000 square feet of retail is bounded by Leila, Riverside, Jackson and Magnolia. The front door of his proposed CVS (btw, how did this design get worse from last month's review..I'm looking at the latest version now) is exactly a one block walk. That's two blocks shorter than the walk between the Landing's front door and the Skyway's Central Station or the same distance from the library's door to Hemming Plaza. If you're not interested in walking that distance, you're probably the type that would not regularly consider using mass transit anywhere, if easily avoidable.
QuoteIF we build it and they don't come...by by Skyway (potentially LRT/Streetcar) forever. It's politics. People don't care that money was wasted on a pocket park or a roundabout. Most people don't even know they exist and don't have this evil thought in their head towards parks and roundabouts like they do against transit.
I'd agree if we were talking about some major expense. However, we're talking about a no-fills stop at an existing facility. Different animal altogether.
Quote from: stephendare on May 01, 2013, 11:41:55 AM
Simms its been a while since youve been in town, but now that they are actually operating the skyway (and made it a free connection) the system is being heavily, heavily used.
An extension along Riverside---and by the way the video discusses also the improvements and future expansions that are taking place at the Cummer (which is still south of Forest, last time I checked ;) )
Cummer has been in Riverside since its founding. Then perhaps the title should be changed from Brooklyn to something else.
Quote from: simms3 on May 01, 2013, 11:48:10 AM
^^^Right, for daily commuting, though? Also, at some point it will become a point of contention that the system is free. Every other transit system in America is raising rates now on an annual basis (still seeing ridership increase), and even if fare collections account for 30-60% of operations of a system (which is really good), in the most liberal of areas you still have anti-transit folks.
Start expanding the Skyway and keeping it free, and it will become a political 800 lb gorilla in the room. What would ridership be with fare? That's the smell test...and is ridership commuter based or event based? That's the "usefulness" smell test.
Miami's Metromover, the Skyway's sibling, is free. Also, there are no plans at this point to extend the Skyway. Furthermore, from what I hear, the Skyway won't be free long term.
^^^BART has limited free transfer to Muni (time-limited for visitors)...it's a totally separate system that is only heavy rail. I can pay $10 more per month to use BART within city limits (distance based fare) in addition to what I pay per month to use unlimited Muni, which does provide free transfers because it's bus, trolleybus, rail and streetcar.
Anyway, Lake - I honestly don't think the Brooklyn developments will contribute a substantive ridership base. I have to take myself here as a test dummy - I am as urbanite as possible for a southern background, so I go out of my way to be carless and "green" and urban when so possible, but from experience I know that in Brooklyn I would still have a car and use it and cringe at walking over to the Skyway station. It's just not transit friendly or even necessary...if I move to Jax like so many do, I will be coming off of living in much larger, much more congested, much more expensive, much more carless cities...so owning, using and parking a car in Jax will be easier to me than using the shit transit system (even if Skyway is free). Plus it's fucking hot as shitttt down there, LoL. Nothing worse than waiting in a hot subway tunnel or for anything outdoors in FL, while wearing your suit or "going out" clothes.
Also, the stats you tout (all of the proposed development plus the one development UC) is not that much, let's be honest. It's incrementally a lot for Jax, clearly. But Charlotte is doing nearly 10x as much NOW along LYNX in South End, in addition to what's already been built. More room there and more potential. I think Brooklyn is limited...There will be limited opportunity to do much more than what's there and what's proposed. I think there is more potential to create a transit line in another direction (north and west?) that could see more ridership from people like me who want to be carless if possible.
Quote from: stephendare on May 01, 2013, 11:59:22 AM
you do know that you have to drive through brooklyn to get to the cummer unless you are coming from riverside, right? Brooklyn is a neighborhood in between neighborhoods.
You have to drive through Baymeadows to get to Avenues. You have to drive through North Riverside to Lackawanna. Every neighborhood in the city is between something.
With each increase in mileage, your solution to transportation issues change because the context and its needs change. If you're talking specifically about Brooklyn projects (which is where things started) then the transportation side of the discussion needs to accurately align with it. If you're expanding out, the context changes, the issues change, so the solutions discussed will need to adapt as well.
Quote from: PeeJayEss on May 01, 2013, 11:48:33 AM
Seems like it has been an aggravating morning...
Anywho, I believe the reason the road projects are solid lines and the mass transit projects are dotted lines is because, as simms said, the dotted ones aren't going to happen.
Where is the terminus of the westbound commuter rail? I'm too lazy to click the link and look.
edit: I lied, I'm super industrious. The west route ends in Maccleny. It and the southwest route are only studies within the timeframe of this plan. But if I had $100mil sitting in a shoe under my bed, I would totally donate it for those streetcar lines...
If your prediction of solid vs dashed lines comes true, we'll have a network of streetcar lines connecting downtown with surrounding urban neighborhoods!
Quote from: thelakelander on May 01, 2013, 11:59:31 AM
Quote from: simms3 on May 01, 2013, 11:48:10 AM
^^^Right, for daily commuting, though? Also, at some point it will become a point of contention that the system is free. Every other transit system in America is raising rates now on an annual basis (still seeing ridership increase), and even if fare collections account for 30-60% of operations of a system (which is really good), in the most liberal of areas you still have anti-transit folks.
Start expanding the Skyway and keeping it free, and it will become a political 800 lb gorilla in the room. What would ridership be with fare? That's the smell test...and is ridership commuter based or event based? That's the "usefulness" smell test.
Miami's Metromover, the Skyway's sibling, is free. Also, there are no plans at this point to extend the Skyway. Furthermore, from what I hear, the Skyway won't be free long term.
No offense to Miami, but the more I visit the place in my current perspective (no longer visit for Ultra, Spring Break, "friends", etc), the more I think of that place as just not relevant to anything that goes on normally in America. It could be its own country, LoL. I say...whatever Miami does, do the opposite!! hehe
Quote from: thelakelander on May 01, 2013, 12:09:37 PM
Quote from: PeeJayEss on May 01, 2013, 11:48:33 AM
Seems like it has been an aggravating morning...
Anywho, I believe the reason the road projects are solid lines and the mass transit projects are dotted lines is because, as simms said, the dotted ones aren't going to happen.
Where is the terminus of the westbound commuter rail? I'm too lazy to click the link and look.
edit: I lied, I'm super industrious. The west route ends in Maccleny. It and the southwest route are only studies within the timeframe of this plan. But if I had $100mil sitting in a shoe under my bed, I would totally donate it for those streetcar lines...
If your prediction of solid vs dashed lines comes true, we'll have a network of streetcar lines connecting downtown with surrounding urban neighborhoods!
Hah! I noticed that after I looked on the site. Streetcar BETTER get done.
Simms3, regardless of how one may feel about the city of Miami, the Metromover still moves an average of 30,000/day in downtown Miami. The Skyway currently moves between 5,000 to 4,500/day. That's up from 1,700/day when JTA was charging people $0.50/ride.
Quote from: simms3 on May 01, 2013, 12:05:37 PM
Anyway, Lake - I honestly don't think the Brooklyn developments will contribute a substantive ridership base. I have to take myself here as a test dummy - I am as urbanite as possible for a southern background, so I go out of my way to be carless and "green" and urban when so possible, but from experience I know that in Brooklyn I would still have a car and use it and cringe at walking over to the Skyway station. It's just not transit friendly or even necessary...if I move to Jax like so many do, I will be coming off of living in much larger, much more congested, much more expensive, much more carless cities...so owning, using and parking a car in Jax will be easier to me than using the shit transit system (even if Skyway is free). Plus it's fucking hot as shitttt down there, LoL. Nothing worse than waiting in a hot subway tunnel or for anything outdoors in FL, while wearing your suit or "going out" clothes.
Also, the stats you tout (all of the proposed development plus the one development UC) is not that much, let's be honest. It's incrementally a lot for Jax, clearly. But Charlotte is doing nearly 10x as much NOW along LYNX in South End, in addition to what's already been built. More room there and more potential. I think Brooklyn is limited...There will be limited opportunity to do much more than what's there and what's proposed. I think there is more potential to create a transit line in another direction (north and west?) that could see more ridership from people like me who want to be carless if possible.
No offense, but I wouldn't consider you the average transit choice rider in any urban setting. Especially in the south. With that said, this has quickly gone overlooked but this is the primary reason why I believe a "no-frills" Skyway station at the Brooklyn operations center makes sense:
Quote from: thelakelander on May 01, 2013, 09:08:32 AM
In short, the Brooklyn Skyway access issue isn't about relieving automobile traffic congestion or gridlock. This development/transit issue is about the need to create and promote the concept of a walkable, pedestrian scale downtown where all its sub-districts positively feed off each other's success.
I am the epitome of transit choice rider, actually. Why wouldn't I be? Actually, you're right...you don't even have to make transit super duper convenient for me in the south and I'll still live as close to it as possible and use it when I can, which is a whole next step. Your average choice rider needs it to be MORE convenient than their car, which is VERY difficult to do in a smaller southern city such as Jax. I'm not in transit, per se, but having lived in a southern city that offers transit and seen ridership habits firsthand for years, I know if you can't convince me to be a rider, you're going to have a very difficult time convincing other "non-captive" riders.
In Jax...keep in mind you have more young people who have never really left the city or lived without their car in an urban setting before. I've been hauling groceries by foot for years now, so I know the plusses AND minuses of being without car and I have accepted them. I think the idea of urban carless experience is still "romantic" to many in Jax, but they haven't the actual experience to know that there are drawbacks to relying on transit and living in an urban setting. The convenience of a car with AC and stereo is a very captivating thing to abandon for a totally different experience.
There are tons of retirees and middle-aged folks/families who have "fled" the crowded urban settings up north so that they can actually have a car and suburban house + yard, been there done that type of thing, and they reside in Jax...it's the inexperienced younger generation that you have to convince to go urban (granted - urban in Jax is really not that urban, it's still quiet, car parking is free and abundant, bla bla bla).
Quote from: simms3 on May 01, 2013, 12:34:39 PM
I am the epitome of transit choice rider, actually. Why wouldn't I be? Actually, you're right...you don't even have to make transit super duper convenient for me in the south and I'll still live as close to it as possible and use it when I can, which is a whole next step. Your average choice rider needs it to be MORE convenient than their car, which is VERY difficult to do in a smaller southern city such as Jax. I'm not in transit, per se, but having lived in a southern city that offers transit and seen ridership habits firsthand for years, I know if you can't convince me to be a rider, you're going to have a very difficult time convincing other "non-captive" riders.
On a regional or city wide level, this is more of a concern. However, speaking from experience, for many working in downtown Jacksonville (I worked within two blocks of the Skyway in the North & Southbank for three years), once you're in downtown, it's much easier to utilize the Skyway then run to your garage, drive/park/do whatever you have to do, then drive back and park in your garage. I'm an independent planning consultant now but I still routinely either use the Skyway or park north of State and walk, depending on my desired downtown destination and length of stay.
QuoteIn Jax...keep in mind you have more young people who have never really left the city or lived without their car in an urban setting before. I've been hauling groceries by foot for years now, so I know the plusses AND minuses of being without car and I have accepted them. I think the idea of urban carless experience is still "romantic" to many in Jax, but they haven't the actual experience to know that there are drawbacks to relying on transit and living in an urban setting. The convenience of a car with AC and stereo is a very captivating thing to abandon for a totally different experience.
In a downtown environment, your largest sell is the concept of walkability. If you're downtown isn't walkable, seriously, what's the point in moving there over anywhere else in town? If Jax is going to consider Brooklyn as a part of downtown, it's only logical that transit connectivity (which extends the walkable footprint) between Brooklyn and the rest of downtown should be improved and be highly reliable.
QuoteThere are tons of retirees and middle-aged folks/families who have "fled" the crowded urban settings up north so that they can actually have a car and suburban house + yard, been there done that type of thing, and they reside in Jax...it's the inexperienced younger generation that you have to convince to go urban (granted - urban in Jax is really not that urban, it's still quiet, car parking is free and abundant, bla bla bla).
None of this should mean you don't enhance walkability and connectivity within your downtown......if the point is to have a vibrant pedestrian friendly downtown. If a vibrant pedestrian friendly environment is not the goal of the end game, what's the point of investing in downtown over other random neighborhoods all across town?
Speaking from experience, there are a lot of people in northern San Marco who would use the Skyway more frequently if they could get to all these new developments in Brooklyn. It would take them directly across the street from a retail center with a Fresh Market (or something similar), and within 3 blocks of the Y, a new public green space, and even more retail at 220 Riverside. I know I would.
QuoteIn a downtown environment, your largest sell is the concept of walkability. If you're downtown isn't walkable, seriously, what's the point in moving there over anywhere else in town? If Jax is going to consider Brooklyn as a part of downtown, it's only logical that transit connectivity (which extends the walkable footprint) between Brooklyn and the rest of downtown should be improved and be highly reliable.
That's exactly why I don't live downtown. When I moved back InTown from the beach, I wanted to live downtown... but realized it just didn't have the type of environment I was looking for. I now live in an area where I can walk to the grocery store or nearby restaurants... or bike to King Street. If I lived downtown, I would have to drive to the grocery store, work, parks, a variety of restaurants and other third places... and until 7-11 opened downtown, if I needed aspirin at 9pm I would have had to drive to a nearby walkable neighborhood to get that as well.
I really think Brooklyn and North San Marco will be the next great neighborhoods in Jacksonville if we seize the opportunities we now have in front of us.
^I think those neighborhoods are so important to what comes next in Jax as well. They connect two of the areas best Riverside and San Marco to DT. They should be an impetus for creating the density and connectivity that will help DT follow them into vibrancy. Springfeild and Durkyville could folow that. It is a long process and the best thing we can do for all of them is to help them connect and leverage each others success.
In response to the posts about the 2035 LRTP.....
The needs plan does include skyway extensions....and the cost feasible plan carried one extension through...it was removed one month before adoption because a City Council member sitting on the TPO Board had heartburn about spending any money on the skyway...so the money was moved to other transit projects
What extension did the council member have removed and what replaced it?
Red
Quote from: thelakelander on May 01, 2013, 12:48:27 PM
Quote from: simms3 on May 01, 2013, 12:34:39 PM
I am the epitome of transit choice rider, actually. Why wouldn't I be? Actually, you're right...you don't even have to make transit super duper convenient for me in the south and I'll still live as close to it as possible and use it when I can, which is a whole next step. Your average choice rider needs it to be MORE convenient than their car, which is VERY difficult to do in a smaller southern city such as Jax. I'm not in transit, per se, but having lived in a southern city that offers transit and seen ridership habits firsthand for years, I know if you can't convince me to be a rider, you're going to have a very difficult time convincing other "non-captive" riders.
On a regional or city wide level, this is more of a concern. However, speaking from experience, for many working in downtown Jacksonville (I worked within two blocks of the Skyway in the North & Southbank for three years), once you're in downtown, it's much easier to utilize the Skyway then run to your garage, drive/park/do whatever you have to do, then drive back and park in your garage. I'm an independent planning consultant now but I still routinely either use the Skyway or park north of State and walk, depending on my desired downtown destination and length of stay.
I agree...once you're "in" any downtown, it is easier to walk. Lunch hour and happy hour and going to a meeting a block or two down are one thing. Living your life without a car is another...a grocery trip of 4+ blocks by foot is probably easier done by car in Jax. If it is easier in Atlanta, it will be even easier in Jax. Living a carfree lifestyle in Jax for anyone who can afford a new urban apartment and a car will be a choice of devotion, as it will be very very difficult to actually make it more convenient to be able to get around your daily life without a car (there's also the whole change of mindset where you must "wean" yourself from the car...they don't call it car addiction for nothing, hehe).
Residents of 225 Riverside who work downtown will face these questions:
1) Is it too hot or too cold for me to devote myself to the 2-3 block walk and then 2-7+ minute wait for a Skyway car to take me to work?
2) Will I be going anywhere during lunch or after work?
3) This morning show is so good today, do I want to make an excuse for myself to continue listening to it on the way into work in my nice car?
QuoteIn Jax...keep in mind you have more young people who have never really left the city or lived without their car in an urban setting before. I've been hauling groceries by foot for years now, so I know the plusses AND minuses of being without car and I have accepted them. I think the idea of urban carless experience is still "romantic" to many in Jax, but they haven't the actual experience to know that there are drawbacks to relying on transit and living in an urban setting. The convenience of a car with AC and stereo is a very captivating thing to abandon for a totally different experience.
In a downtown environment, your largest sell is the concept of walkability. If you're downtown isn't walkable, seriously, what's the point in moving there over anywhere else in town? If Jax is going to consider Brooklyn as a part of downtown, it's only logical that transit connectivity (which extends the walkable footprint) between Brooklyn and the rest of downtown should be improved and be highly reliable.
I agree with all of this. I just think that Jax is too easy to have a car and too spread out not to have a car. I could see living in the Northbank as being a lot easier than living in Brooklyn even when it's all built out and connected via Skyway (it would be no choice). These pseudo Sunbelt-urban development trends are a step in the right direction, but until the whole friggin city is developed and dense, having/using a car will be easier for those not directly in the Northbank where you can walk a block to work and less than a block to happy hour/lunch spots, using car only for grocery or to get to beach.
QuoteThere are tons of retirees and middle-aged folks/families who have "fled" the crowded urban settings up north so that they can actually have a car and suburban house + yard, been there done that type of thing, and they reside in Jax...it's the inexperienced younger generation that you have to convince to go urban (granted - urban in Jax is really not that urban, it's still quiet, car parking is free and abundant, bla bla bla).
None of this should mean you don't enhance walkability and connectivity within your downtown......if the point is to have a vibrant pedestrian friendly downtown. If a vibrant pedestrian friendly environment is not the goal of the end game, what's the point of investing in downtown over other random neighborhoods all across town?
I agree. It's all a step in the right direction. Just playing devil's advocate...we can't expect a totally carfree culture in Jax to arise to any degree without a larger Northbank and a "line" like Charlotte has that makes a rather large version of Brooklyn happen so that certain economies of scale of urbanity form along it. I'm not against Skyway access to Brooklyn and I think it's all great - but I don't think any of this is transformative to a noticeable degree and I do worry about the fuel tank for political support in the city/region for anything having to do with transit - so I think we as advocates just need to tread lightly and only back projects we know will be a success.
^I'm not selling a totally car-free environment. What I'm saying is a downtown environment should provide you with reliable multimodal choices. Thus, if one chooses to reduce the need for daily car use by living, working and playing in downtown, they should have that choice. Right now they don't, which is why several that have considered downtown, end up in Riverside, San Marco, Tapestry Park/Southside, etc.
I'm actually not aware of a truly vibrant downtown in this country that doesn't strive to be multimodal friendly. Thus, I'd argue better Skyway connectivity, bike infrastructure, etc. throughout the downtown core will put us on the path to success moreso than ignoring the impact of alternative transportation altogether.
QuoteResidents of 225 Riverside who work downtown will face these questions:
1) Is it too hot or too cold for me to devote myself to the 2-3 block walk and then 2-7+ minute wait for a Skyway car to take me to work?
2) Will I be going anywhere during lunch or after work?
3) This morning show is so good today, do I want to make an excuse for myself to continue listening to it on the way into work in my nice car?
What about residents of the Strand or Carling desiring to pick up a few items from the grocery store? What about the guest staying at the Omni, Crowne Plaza or Hilton Garden Inn looking for a bite to eat? What about the employee at Everbank, BOA, Wells Fargo, etc. that needs to make a quick run to the pharmacy? Connectivity is just as important to the Northbank and Southbank, as it is to the future residents of 220 Riverside and Riverside Place.
Quote from: thelakelander on May 01, 2013, 11:27:23 PM
What extension did the council member have removed and what replaced it?
I think it was the one down Riverside Avenue to Forrest St....the money was re-allocated to the transportation center and the streetcar line to 5 Points (the thought being that any alternatives analysis study of that corridor would still need to look at the skyway as an option).
Both Riverside and San Marco extensions are in the needs plan
Quote from: thelakelander on May 01, 2013, 11:56:47 PM
^I'm not selling a totally car-free environment. What I'm saying is a downtown environment should provide you with reliable multimodal choices. Thus, if one chooses to reduce the need for daily car use by living, working and playing in downtown, they should have that choice. Right now they don't, which is why several that have considered downtown, end up in Riverside, San Marco, Tapestry Park/Southside, etc.
I'm actually not aware of a truly vibrant downtown in this country that doesn't strive to be multimodal friendly. Thus, I'd argue better Skyway connectivity, bike infrastructure, etc. throughout the downtown core will put us on the path to success moreso than ignoring the impact of alternative transportation altogether.
QuoteResidents of 225 Riverside who work downtown will face these questions:
1) Is it too hot or too cold for me to devote myself to the 2-3 block walk and then 2-7+ minute wait for a Skyway car to take me to work?
2) Will I be going anywhere during lunch or after work?
3) This morning show is so good today, do I want to make an excuse for myself to continue listening to it on the way into work in my nice car?
What about residents of the Strand or Carling desiring to pick up a few items from the grocery store? What about the guest staying at the Omni, Crowne Plaza or Hilton Garden Inn looking for a bite to eat? What about the employee at Everbank, BOA, Wells Fargo, etc. that needs to make a quick run to the pharmacy? Connectivity is just as important to the Northbank and Southbank, as it is to the future residents of 220 Riverside and Riverside Place.
"Carfree" as a slice of the city, not the whole city (i.e. like a LYNX/South End neighborhood as in Charlotte).
The only reason we're talking about downtown as a place to live and focus is because Sunbelt cities are small enough blank slates to do that. Even in NYC, SF, and Boston "downtown" is the boring place to live, LoL...totally different animals. In that sense, you're right and we agree that Brooklyn and San Marco and all neighborhoods should be connected, but in terms of transit this ain't a large city that can drop money here and there on trains and not deal with "consequences" down the road. It's still easier for 99.9% of Jaxsons to have and use a car - which is why they see even a penny spent on public transit as a waste. Here in SF the relatively few who have a car still take the transit during the week because it's just too damn hard/expensive to actually use your car. There's actually a clamoring here for more Muni subway lines as opposed to a backlash against even a penny being spent on an upgraded bus stop.
Carling residents should be able to easily hop on a bus without hastle to get to a grocery store without a big wait (do we honestly need a Skyway connection for that?). The south has a history that may prevent it from having a decent clean, safe, reliable bus system that middle to upper class people will use, but we should try. Busses>trains any day, and cheaper and if done right by leaders diving in head first to get a system going, more reliable. Still - it's the south. Until there are enough professional residents downtown to attract Publix (you're going to be hard-pressed to get uppity young professionals to make a habit of going to Winn Dixie I think, especially in that area which is sketch looking at night and empty), you're going to have residents in Carling or wherever take a quick elevator hop down to their car, exit, and drive to Riverside...and it will be quicker than any other way. It's just so easy to do so, and why do we penalize them for doing something that's easier? I don't! I would do the same unless I had some decent grocer within a few blocks.
The Strand is nice, luxurious and offers the highest views, but it's called the Strand for a reason because it's going to leave yo ass stranded from civilization. And if you can afford a $1600 1BR there, then you can afford the free parking too and a nice car, and there is no way taxpayers should spend any money whatsoever to get transit to go out of its way to serve your ass when you live there, LoL (are you really going to even take it?). Until 10 more towers with less abundant parking rise all around you and we can get a bus stop or a Skyway stop that has 2-5 people at any given time waiting, there's no point in serving ya!
As for everyone else staying in a hotel - that's what cabs should be for. There is only 1 city in America that has a transit system that is arguably easier (and often not) for visitors than a cab - NYC. Everyone else takes cabs. If you're staying at the Hyatt on some 2 day trip here to Jax and you need to go to a full blown grocery store, wtf are you doing? LoL Which is why 7-11 and any other Walgreens/CVS that might come downtown is such a big useful deal. When I go to Nashville and stay downtown at their reliably good Courtyard, I am not ever wishing the for the friggin Star or a bus to come pick me up to go to my destination. The last thing I as a visitor need is to be lost on some foreign city's public transit system! As an urban explorer, I do rail systems in other cities (usually it's an easy leg in from airport and convenient, but beyond that it's my explorer ass and a bunch of locals...no tourists). Busses for visitors on a 1-3 day stay big no no unless you want to end up somewhere off the grid, haha!
I'll just say this. You're basing your opinion on some pretty large assumptions. Many, such as the few highlighted below, are either inaccurate or soley based on your personal tastes and needs:
"The only reason we're talking about downtown as a place to live and focus is because Sunbelt cities are small enough blank slates to do that.
The last thing I as a visitor need is to be lost on some foreign city's public transit system!
There is only 1 city in America that has a transit system that is arguably easier (and often not) for visitors than a cab - NYC. Everyone else takes cabs.
and there is no way taxpayers should spend any money whatsoever to get transit to go out of its way to serve your ass when you live there.
I've pointed a few of these out because I do use a city's foreign public transit systems, I haven't taken a cab in years, there are several cities you can easily get around using public transit outside of NYC and I have stopped by stores for various needs, while visiting other communities. The focus on downtown/urban core living is also not just a Sunbelt thing. Last, I have no problem walking more than two blocks and do it quite often, even in Jax.
Nevertheless, no offense but nothing in your statement makes a strong case for not seriously considering utilizing our existing $184 million downtown transit circulator to be accessible to 600 units and 70,000 square feet of retail going up across the street from it.
Cabs are pricey. I use the Metro in DC one week a year, the El in Chicago one week a year and in Vegas I set my stay up so I con use the monorail instead of cabs. Those are the transit cities I visit mostly. I go to St. Louis every year but I have the whole family and am mostly in the Suburbs so I rent a car. I think you have a point Simms that many people prefer cabs on vacation but not everyone.
Kids or not, I use transit or my feet in nearly every city I fly into. NYC, DC, Chicago, Dallas/Fort Worth, LA, San Diego, St. Louis, Atlanta, Miami, Boston, etc. are all places I've frequently used transit with ease in the past. I seriously can't even remember the last time I took a cab for myself. In some cities, including Sunbelt communities like St. Petersburg, I've parked the truck and either walked or biked the entire time I was in town. Nevertheless, none of this has anything to do with whether it makes sense to allow passenger service at the Skyway's operations center or not or should it be used in determining if we want our downtown to be walkable.
I have taken a cab less than 10 times in my whole life....and that includes while living in Philly for 5 years
^^^Well that's all good, but there's a reason there is a cab line at every hotel in every major city. This board is a transit nerd board, but the general population is probably a different slice of the pie. I am like you guys and purposely go out of my way to learn and use another city's transit (usually when I'm traveling alone and not in a rush, because otherwise I am with coworkers who take cabs like most of white collar America or I need to be somewhere specific fast...cab required!).
I'm still blown away that one can live in a city like Philadelphia for 5 years and take a cab less than 10 times...what were you stuck on one block for 5 years, never going out at night? SF might have potentially better transit and certainly better walkability and NYC too...I take cabs in both cities frequently (they're cheap for cabs!) and now there's cheap Uber and Lyft and other apps making getting around by cab easy.
Lake - about downtowns - the downtown renaissance is a focus of Sunbelt metros mostly. That's a fact. Sure Lower Manhattan and Fidi in Boston and SF are seeing towers go up, but these cities are already so large that it represents a small fraction of the focus, which is on other areas of town. In dense carless cities, the hip neighborhoods where most want to be are *not* downtown. Fact, not opinion. In Sunbelt metros like Atlanta, Charlotte, Phoenix, etc the only areas where one can arguably be carless is downtown...the rest of the metro is too suburban in nature, so the focus is on downtown. Even still, the hippest neighborhoods in these Sunbelt cities for the Creative Class is not DT, but rather surrounding neighborhoods where everyone still has cars, but there is a slight bit of "cool" and walkability mixed in.
QuoteThe last thing I as a visitor need is to be lost on some foreign city's public transit system!
Yes, this is my opinion and I'm sure most share it, LoL. Easy to take a train in from the airport, beyond that you're "learning a system" and if you are a short term visitor, a cab is just easier...he'll take you to the front door!
QuoteThere is only 1 city in America that has a transit system that is arguably easier (and often not) for visitors than a cab - NYC. Everyone else takes cabs.
Yes, an opinion and generalization. I personally don't know many besides transit forum geeks like ourselves who would disagree (well maybe DC is up there with NYC, and Boston's T green line is useful for visitors for its routes).
Quoteand there is no way taxpayers should spend any money whatsoever to get transit to go out of its way to serve your ass when you live there.
Pure opinion, but I do think it would be a waste to bulk up transit for Strand/Peninsula residents. ~700 isolated luxury units where everyone has at least one car they park for free? Do we honestly think we're going to coax even a quarter of these residents out of their cars and onto Skyway/bus system? LoLROFLMFAO
If you're inclined to use/rely on transit...you are not moving to either the Strand or the Peninsula! In fact apparently there are only a few thousand in the entire city who rely on transit every day...and they are probably too poor to own a car and must rely on the shitty bus system.
QuoteLake - about downtowns - the downtown renaissance is a focus of Sunbelt metros mostly. That's a fact.
Unless you've got some factual, statistical data to present, I'd say this is an opinion. Nearly every US city from Minneapolis, Omaha, Grand Rapids and Portland to Houston, El Paso, Rochester and Hartford has placed a focus on attracting growth and redevelopment in their downtown and urban core neighborhoods. This can be validated by a simple google search.
Nevertheless, I don't see how this side discussion has anything to do with enhancing downtown Jacksonville's walkability. Specifically, in relation to the idea of enhancing multimodal connectivity between Brooklyn and the rest of downtown, with something already in place.
QuotePure opinion, but I do think it would be a waste to bulk up transit for Strand/Peninsula residents. ~700 isolated luxury units where everyone has at least one car they park for free? Do we honestly think we're going to coax even a quarter of these residents out of their cars and onto Skyway/bus system? LoLROFLMFAO
Yes, opinion indeed. However, in this thread you're specifically up to 1300 isolated units (600 Brooklyn + 700 Strand/Peninsula) and 70,000 square feet of retail. What happens when we add up everything within a 1/4 mile radius of the existing Skyway? Btw, a 1/4-mile is the statistical distance the average pedestrian is willing to walk to/from a transit station. Whatever, the use, there's an economic benefit created by building a pedestrian scale urban core. Besides, I think we all can agree that there is little value or attraction in a DT where your only true way to travel is by motorized vehicle for all trips.
Simms seriously are you trying to present evidence that we shouldn't let people board the Skyway at an existing Skyway stop?
No, I'm just doing what I always do - play devil's advocate. There are a small handful of cities in America where taking public transit is actually easier and signnificantly more cost effective than using an automobile. There are also only a handful of cities in America that are not under significant influence of Tea Partiers and anti-transit folks (hint, both small groups are the same group of cities).
Jacksonville is and will likely be for at least a good while longer a city where it is easier and still cheap to own and use an automobile relative to relying on public transit. Add to that the conservative local politics and the sway of anti-transit, anti-downtown folks and you have a smaller "fuel tank" of political and financial gas to increase transit and do stuff for downtown (not to mention I don't blame Jaxson's skepticism based on city officials' track records of success or lack thereof).
I'd love for there to be a Portland streetcar system already in place (by the way even in Portland there are public political roadblocks to transit projects and the latest streetcar was controversial and hardly unanimously supported by the public).
However, while I encourage Peninsula and Strand residents to walk on over to the Skyway and use it and the local bus system to their heart's content, I do think incrementally increasing transit access to high income car users one small (but potentially expensive in Jax terms) solution at a time is NOT good for local transit political support.
Since Charlotte has been very transparent about using transit for economic development rather than as a transit tool (because they know it's still too easy to get around by car and using rich people's tax money to build rail lines to serve poor captive riders only politically works in Atlanta - oh wait, no it hasn't!), they did rail through a development zone, not through historic neighborhoods. So, I also think doing streetcars through Avondale is a waste because then you'll miss out on the opportunity to do it in a greenfield where you can build cool new apartments for downtown Creative Class workers under the age of 30 who will actually ride it in and give supporters the numbers they need to start the next project.
Catch my drift? Maybe I just don't have enough faith in Jacksonville politics...I'm not anti anyone using transit and heck, there can never be too much, but most people in America nowadays, especially in conservative car oriented cities such as Jax (with consolidated governments where the majority has no connection to the original city I might add) are rather opposed or skeptical of transit.
I don't know the cost of a Skyway platform or the cost of integrating it into the system. I am skeptical that it's worth it for a few hundred units (we can tout total SF retail and # apts proposed for Brooklyn...but we all know the retail will serve commuters going home and Ortega moms who would prefer to drive to Riverside Ave vs San Jose, and the apts figure is still very small and many if not most will be working on SS anyway, reserving Skyway use for DT events).
^^Stephen - I also posited that incremental change is not good (we must be on same page :)). I think a full blown line like LYNX blue or a totally revamped bus system with new routes and stops/stations is the way to go to make a positive impact with transit, politically and in terms of usefulness.
LYNX is an incremental change. It's been over a decade now since first starting a short tourist streetcar on that line. The LYNX LRT line operating now, is only a 9 mile link serving one corridor in the city. It would be comparable to running only one LRT line from DT to Avenues. Over the next 30 years however, Charlotte has a pretty aggressive plan to expand.
Quote from: simms3 on May 02, 2013, 03:23:28 PM
I don't know the cost of a Skyway platform or the cost of integrating it into the system. I am skeptical that it's worth it for a few hundred units (we can tout total SF retail and # apts proposed for Brooklyn...but we all know the retail will serve commuters going home and Ortega moms who would prefer to drive to Riverside Ave vs San Jose, and the apts figure is still very small and many if not most will be working on SS anyway, reserving Skyway use for DT events).
Without knowing the cost or having a general idea of how much it takes to build a ground level platform along a spot where the system already exists, how can you immediately come to the conclusion it's not worth enhancing connectivity throughout DT? This is one simple and cheap move that impacts the Northbank and Southbank moreso than anything else.
Also, let's be real. We all know if this place goes up, you can forget about another grocery or pharmacy, etc. opening in the North or Southbank anytime soon. That means, their residents are going to be forced to drive to Brooklyn for basic needs. If you're interested in urban living, why choose either over Brooklyn or Riverside? By ignoring multimodal connectivity, you basically place most of DT at a competitive economic disadvantage against an isolated sub-district. That's the definition of failure......if the goal is a vibrant walkable downtown.
^^^If a Fresh Market or similar high end specialty grocer does take the anchor space at the retail development, the target shopper is 35+ women, not young professionals. In fact, given a lower resident threshold than you think, Fresh Market and Publix can co-exist in the same half mile radius. In fact, I work on a shopping center with a 70,000 SF Safeway right next to a 25,000 SF Trader Joe's...
For an auto oriented Sunbelt city as small as Charlotte, a 9 mile LRT line is more than what I would call "incremental", even if over the years it will be incrementally expanded. Jax doing a similar LRT line would be akin to a city the size of Atlanta adding 2 HRT lines to MARTA and building a Central Station to handle HRT, Amtrak, future HSR, etc. I'm just talking about these one-off small projects that consistently fail or receive negative press and add up in the minds of Jaxsons as being bad for trying to get a large project that might work off the ground. It should all be bundled up in one package (why the hell do you think Congress bundles save the whale legislation in with Medicaid reform legislation, etc etc).
Publix isn't coming to DT anytime soon, regardless of Fresh Market. The president told me himself. Charlotte's LRT isn't a first step. The little seldom used short streetcar line came first in the 1990s. From what you've described in this thread, that would be considered a failure. Also, a platform addition along the Skyway shouldn't be viewed the same way or compared with a major transit project or expansion. BTW, what's your definition of failure for attempting to improve mobility in downtown specifically? Is there a certain dollar figure you're working with?
Quote from: simms3 on May 02, 2013, 12:21:47 PM
I'm still blown away that one can live in a city like Philadelphia for 5 years and take a cab less than 10 times...what were you stuck on one block for 5 years, never going out at night?
nope...in fact, I only took a cab 3 times in those 5 years....instead, we took transit, rode our bikes, and/or walked!
^^^I can gather that without even asking the prez, and I'm sure San Marco is still on their radar (when DT isn't), but what I'm saying is that Publix and WF or Fresh Market can coexist as they serve entirely different demographic groups and sell totally different merchandise (if a residential explosion ever does happen DT or nearby).
We're talking about two different things altogether, you and I. If Jacksonville were progressive and was able to prioritize a financial emphasis and political emphasis on public transportation, I would be all for experimenting, implementing, one-off $500K projects (heck charitable groups out here are backing parklets and bus shelters), etc. I'm just worried that if Jacksonville JTA/council/whatever agency connected goes forward with paying whatever it costs ($500K, $1M?, $3M?) to put in a Skyway platform in Brooklyn as a standalone project, and it doesn't payoff in the mind of the public, the whole freakin system and anything related to public transit thereafter is screwed. I'm forecasting a ridership increase failure at this point for a Brooklyn platform based on what I think I have observed in similar situations elsewhere. <600 units (maybe) with a free parking ratio of 1 spot per bedroom and a shopping center geared for auto users on their way home (or local moms looking for an alternative to SS) are not heavy ridership producers, especially for a "circulator" system that is much more useful for office lunch hour traffic and DT events than it is for "getting around".
Quote from: tufsu1 on May 02, 2013, 09:24:48 PM
Quote from: simms3 on May 02, 2013, 12:21:47 PM
I'm still blown away that one can live in a city like Philadelphia for 5 years and take a cab less than 10 times...what were you stuck on one block for 5 years, never going out at night?
nope...in fact, I only took a cab 3 times in those 5 years....instead, we took transit, rode our bikes, and/or walked!
I do all the same...but I frequently end up in neighborhoods at night, drinking when it is simply a must to take a cab. Plus, I actually know people who commute by cab (to them it costs $500/mo to park at office and potentially another $300-$400 at your apartment, or they can rely entirely on cabs all month and spend less than $400...transit + cab could run $100-$200/mo when mixed effectively).
I know Philly to a smaller degree as a visitor and love it (have family there actually), but no offense SF is far more walkable and transit friendly and I can barely imagine taking a cab a mere 3x per month or two. Even in Atlanta I took a cab a fair amount, as did literally every soul I knew there. Visitor? 99% of visitors are taking a cab, in any major city. There's a reason there are like 5 apps now to make cabs even cheaper, easier and more abundant.
Quote from: simms3 on May 02, 2013, 09:33:29 PM
^^^I can gather that without even asking the prez, and I'm sure San Marco is still on their radar (when DT isn't), but what I'm saying is that Publix and WF or Fresh Market can coexist as they serve entirely different demographic groups and sell totally different merchandise (if a residential explosion ever does happen DT or nearby).
Yes, stores can co-exist when there is a market to co-exist in. Between Brooklyn, the Northbank and Southbank, you don't have the demographics to support multiple stores of that size. Unless you're saying extend the Skyway to San Marco, you'll be asking Northbank/Southbank residents to pay more for the privilege of still driving to get to things one assumes already exist within a vibrant walkable setting. That person would be better off moving in the parking lot of SJTC or Tapestry Park.
QuoteWe're talking about two different things altogether, you and I. If Jacksonville were progressive and was able to prioritize a financial emphasis and political emphasis on public transportation, I would be all for experimenting, implementing, one-off $500K projects (heck charitable groups out here are backing parklets and bus shelters), etc. I'm just worried that if Jacksonville JTA/council/whatever agency connected goes forward with paying whatever it costs ($500K, $1M?, $3M?) to put in a Skyway platform in Brooklyn as a standalone project, and it doesn't payoff in the mind of the public, the whole freakin system and anything related to public transit thereafter is screwed. I'm forecasting a ridership increase failure at this point for a Brooklyn platform based on what I think I have observed in similar situations elsewhere.
Yes, we are coming from two different angles. I'm placing a value on the ability of connectivity and walkability to enhance economic development throughout the core. I'm also viewing the $184 million Skyway as a downtown amenity that should be integrated into all future land planning in the downtown core. You seem to be focused only on ridership and what suburban Jaxsons think about transit. I'll say, I'm pretty excited to see where things will go with the DIA and CRA plan. I believe transportation within downtown and the surrounding neighborhoods will play a larger role than it has in the past.
Quote<600 units (maybe) with a free parking ratio of 1 spot per bedroom and a shopping center geared for auto users on their way home (or local moms looking for an alternative to SS) are not heavy ridership producers, especially for a "circulator" system that is much more useful for office lunch hour traffic and DT events than it is for "getting around"
Connectivity is a two way street. You're serving much more than two Brooklyn developments by tying them together with the rest of the downtown core.
Quote from: stephendare on May 02, 2013, 09:43:25 PM
Simms you arent taking into account the fact that Brooklyn is not really walkable, even with retail. There will be about a thousand cars added to the environment between the units and service employees for the facility. These people will generate multiple trips per day. And there still wont be easy access to entertainment.
What about the 11 East resident who wants to pick some hamburger meat or flowers for a date? What about Knight Lofts resident who wants to buy some organic produce? What about the COJ worker who wants to pick up something at Panera Bread? Connectivity with the Brooklyn projects extends the concept of downtown walkability far outside of Riverside Avenue. That's something I don't think Simms3 is placing a high value on.
QuoteIdeally what we would do is get partial private subsidies to build out an extension of transit from the Brooklyn Station all the way into the Five Points Publix complex.
The Skyway will most likely never be extended south of I-95. However, that won't be a problem if we let the mobility fee do what it's intended to do. A streetcar will help resolve the issue of transit connectivity between Riverside and Downtown.
QuoteSimultaneously, following Ocks plan to take the system to the heart of San Marco would create a connectible, multi node little system that would give people plenty of incentives to ride.
A Skyway extension to Atlantic Boulevard is probably the most logical extension for the Skyway, due to the presence of the FEC tracks. That was actually a part of the mobility plan until Curtis Hart lobbied to have the money moved.
[/quote] Give me a few minutes and I'll find and post a map of all proposed fixed transit routes in Jacksonville over the next 20 years.
[/quote]
did you ever locate this map?
would LOVE to see it!!
Yes. I posted it a couple of pages ago. Here it is:
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Transit/Roads-and-Bridges/Misc-Jax-Roads/i-6DFxqFF/0/X2/LRTP_summbrochure_Page_4-X2.jpg)
http://www.northfloridatpo.com/images/uploads/general/LRTP_summbrochure.pdf
1.
Am I being too naive to ask for an approximate dollar figure for the no-frills skyway express shelter&bus stop west of McCoys creek near the Leila/May/Riverside Ave/Haskell U-turn/service drive?
2.
What would a simple walkway with lighting, fencing and a shade pavilion at the Operations&Maintenance center cost ?
3. thanks for re-posting the map, I don't know exactly how or why I was expecting something different.
I guess not seeing all of 9B threw me off.
Thanks
You can't get an approximate dollar figure without putting something together to that can be used to solicit estimates. However, you can gather costs of similar structures recently built that would put you in the general range. I'll post a few later today. For now, I'd say it would probably fall in the range of $1 million to $1.5 million, based of what some other no-frills stations have cost in other communities.
With that said, I'd be willing to put down cash that it would be cheaper than the Jag's new scoreboard, the Laura Street Streetscape, the proposed Greyhound station and the Skyway fare collection system that will eventually be installed.
Josh did a great job on the video. Nat Ford, the new JTA head, is well aware of the future challenges with Riverside Avenue traffic and I am sure he will have some mass transit answers. He is sharp and has 30 years of mass transportation experience including jobs at San Francisco and Atlanta.
Quote from: thelakelander on May 03, 2013, 06:30:36 AM
Yes. I posted it a couple of pages ago. Here it is:
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Transit/Roads-and-Bridges/Misc-Jax-Roads/i-6DFxqFF/0/X2/LRTP_summbrochure_Page_4-X2.jpg)
http://www.northfloridatpo.com/images/uploads/general/LRTP_summbrochure.pdf
Lake,
Thank you for the map!
IF you do not mind, could you overlay the current skyway route on an enlarged inset?
I am trying to visualize how streetcar, skyway, brt, rail, bike and ped improvements are planned to mix and where.
Understanding that the WHEN is tied up in senseless fee reductions and outdated land use and zoning strategies, I would very much appreciate your help with such a visual aide.
^ the skyway is shown as the solid orange line on the inset map above....streetcar, brt, and rail would mix in at the transportation center
Quote from: tufsu1 on May 05, 2013, 10:45:20 PM
^ the skyway is shown as the solid orange line on the inset map above....streetcar, brt, and rail would mix in at the transportation center
The solid orange line is planned future streetcar, yes?
I'm asking to see presently existing skyway added to the inset, for a dinner presentation
sheesh am i the only young person that reads this? everyone is talking about buying groceries, blah blah blah, you take the car for those few trips
where this would be useful would for when you don't want to drive a car because you can get thrown in jail or worse
... when you've been drinking. connect king st (or hell just 5 points for now) to downtown and san marco and actually keep that stupid monorail open past 9pm (let's say 3am on thursday-saturday). People will have a good reason to start using it ... once they get used to it, they will start using it more/bringing friends on it that never rode it before
get people from riverside/san marco into downtown at NIGHT and you'll start to see bars and restaurants actually do well there again. When that happens maybe people might actually want to live in Downtown
also lets you pitch it to the geezers as a way to reduce drunk driving
Quote from: Slackiinoff on May 20, 2013, 04:53:46 PM
sheesh am i the only young person that reads this? everyone is talking about buying groceries, blah blah blah, you take the car for those few trips
where this would be useful would for when you don't want to drive a car because you can get thrown in jail or worse
... when you've been drinking. connect king st (or hell just 5 points for now) to downtown and san marco and actually keep that stupid monorail open past 9pm (let's say 3am on thursday-saturday). People will have a good reason to start using it ... once they get used to it, they will start using it more/bringing friends on it that never rode it before
get people from riverside/san marco into downtown at NIGHT and you'll start to see bars and restaurants actually do well there again. When that happens maybe people might actually want to live in Downtown
Slow day at work so I feel like responding.
It doesn't sound like you are a transit rider. When I first started using transit, I thought it would be good for avoiding drinking and driving, but really even in the largest cities that's what cabs/your LOCAL walking distance bars are for. Some of the largest cities don't even have 24 hour service, so what are you going to do when you want to return after midnight? Often there are a few bus lines running...people in Jax don't even take the bus during rush hour, let alone at 2 in the AM!
People keep talking as if Brooklyn will open up the "urban lifestyle" in Jax, and it probably will to a degree, but things are relative (5 Points to me will always be more walkable/urban). You aren't living the urban lifestyle if the only time you can figure out when to use transit is at 9 or 10 at night to go to a bar. An urban lifestyle likely involves complete reliance on your feet and alternative transit to get around, which may require you to carry your groceries or squeeze onto a crowded bus or train with a bike or a full backpack (thereby pissing everyone off and risking "transit rage", which I wouldn't be surprised if that happens more frequently than road rage!).
The groceries was brought up as an anology...there are tons of people now part of family units who left the urban lifestyle up north for the suburban lifestyle in Jax (each does indeed have its plusses and minuses depending on your stage of life/wants and needs). There are
not that many young people in Jax who have left and done the whole independent live in big city thing and then returned while still young/single (there really aren't that many people that even leave Jax period relative to lots of other cities)...so the idea of taking the train and living in a studio and in an urban environment is a romantic thought. Rents in Riverside for an apartment in an older building are super cheap, and all this new construction will offer relatively cheap studios, too (expensive for Jax) Of course studio in Jax still means a large 600 SF pad with new appliances and AC in an amenitied building, and taking the train will likely be for commuters who live "on a stop" (TOD like in Charlotte) and work DT, or for attending events DT, but not necessarily for complete reliance since free parking is likely provided in any building they choose to live in (or free street parking in Riverside/San Marco).
And let's face it...hauling 20 pounds of groceries by hand in the heat/cold/rain a few blocks and up a few flights is one of the many "less" romantic drawbacks of the urban lifestyle that I'm sure most in Jax would willingly choose to forgo :). Having to run a few blocks to get a bus driver's attention so that he'll stop and let you on is another...so is waiting in the rain, the heat, the cold, the snow, for your bus or train, etc etc.
Of course imo the urban lifestyle is better for young singles or those not planning on getting married and/or raising a bunch of kids, but it's not perfectly ideal and I hate when people just assume things. If I lived in Manhattan and it were 10 degrees out and I were rich enough to have a Town Car service, I sure as hell would choose that over doing the whole rush hour bus/train craze in freezing your ass off conditions. If I were in Jax, parking is free at building, cheap DT, and it's just too easy to find excuses not to take transit if there is any sort of inclement weather or reason ("what if I need to go to GNC after work or a happy hour on the SS?...can't take the train today").
To Lake's point, incremental change is good, but let's not kid ourselves that Brooklyn will be some urban paradise where people will forgo the car altogether and live like folks do in NYC, Boston, SF, Philly, etc. People in NYC aren't carless because they'd prefer not to have a car; they're carless because maybe they can't afford it (likely), there's no parking and it becomes a hastle (there will be free and abundant parking in Brooklyn developments), transit is actually easier for the aforementioned reasons (oftentimes I can see use of car being easier for residents of Brooklyn developments in Jax), etc etc. I don't have a car in SF even though my building actually supplies a garage. Why? Because my rent for a "sizable" 450 SF 1960s studio with updated appliances is enough to buy me a waterfront house, easily, in Jacksonville (or to rent the PH at Strand) and to park a car would be an extra $450/mo not to mention $4.50/gal gas and insane insurance costs. I simply can't squeeze it, but I'd truly love to have a car for weekend trips (I technically have access to a car because my building also has 20 zipcar spots). DT parking would be another $500-600+/mo for me as well, or $20/day for an outlying garage with a finishing walk in or $30/day right in the fidi (if there are spots that become available...my 1.2 million SF office tower has a taxi queue and a Town Car queue, and parking for principals' Ferraris and Range Rovers, but no parking for the thousands of employees like me).
I'm not sure why comparisons to mega cities like NYC keep getting thrown into the mix. My main premises has always been that a major amenity/attraction of urban living is being in a multimodal friendly environment where you have realistic and reliable transportation choices at your disposal. What's the point of paying more money to live in a downtown area if we're intent on making it look and feel like the Southside or Argyle? If walkability (which includes being multimodal friendly) isn't going to be a redevelopment major goal, we need to stop wasting everyone's time and money in downtown revitalization because you can't have urban vibrancy without it. This doesn't mean I'm saying people should give up cars. I'm just saying it is an amenity when you have the option of walking to get a gallon milk or taking a bike to a park as opposed to driving being your only mobility option for all trips being made outside of your front door.
Quote from: simms3 on May 21, 2013, 03:15:19 PM
And let's face it...hauling 20 pounds of groceries by hand in the heat/cold/rain a few blocks and up a few flights is one of the many "less" romantic drawbacks of the urban lifestyle that I'm sure most in Jax would willingly choose to forgo :).
Simple Solution 1,243
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/CRITICAL%20Cartoons%20and%20Fun%20Stuff/grocerycart_zps7336dac4.jpg)
^^^Are you serious or joking? I see a very few grannies pushing those around. Usually grocery store comes right after work, better solution =
(http://i00.i.aliimg.com/wsphoto/v0/763958442_1/Free-shipping-Hot-selling-SwissGear-Laptop-Backpack-for-14-15-6-Notebook-SA9508-Wenger-military-bag.jpg)
Lol, I'll go with the SwissGear.
Best option:
(http://media.treehugger.com/assets/images/2011/10/cartbike.jpg)
Careful if this keeps escalating it will be a car.