1) Taverna is doubling in size, taking over the space next door, and getting a liquor license.
2) Indochine has either bought/leased the whole Square One building, top and bottom. Bottom floor: Buddha Bar, Asian themed bar, drinks and food until 2 a.m. Top floor: Indochine with an expanded menu (probably more high end items).
Better news.....the square is expected to be opened back up to traffic next week
Quote from: tufsu1 on April 26, 2013, 09:40:16 AM
Better news.....the square is expected to be opened back up to traffic next week
That's obviously great news, but common, opening up the square to traffic....It wasn't an if, but a when. Good it's happening soon, though.
On the other hand, Taverna's success and a Square One revamp (both official as of yesterday) is a huge plus for San Marco! :D
Good news indeed. I can't wait to see what the vibe of that area becomes when everything is complete:
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Development/Urban-Construction-04-2013/i-gJcGhwt/0/M/P1630029-M.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Development/Urban-Construction-04-2013/i-W4CNm3w/0/M/P1630033-M.jpg)
I hope Indochine doesnt close their downtown space.
Quote from: fsujax on April 26, 2013, 10:40:05 AM
I hope Indochine doesnt close their downtown space.
They're not.
Good.
I think the recent resurgence in the SM area can be attributed to Councilwoman Boyer and great leadership from Doug Skiles and the other folks at SMPS, AND the anti-business policies of riverside/Avondale driving potential new business away from that area and over to a business friendly area like SM.
It could also be because I moved from RA to St Nick. I bring the cool with me.
Anyone remember Pom's back in the day?! Still one of my favorite dining experiences in the city. I hope indochine can re-capture some of that magic!!
The Square has also become a bit of a car show these days. Yesterday I parked next to a Ferrari and today next to an Aston Martin.
That IS great news about Indochine moving into the Square One space!
Didn't know Square One was closing...not that I went there much. Indochine will bring some cache, although I'm not a huge fan.
Taverna on the other hand...love it!
Very exciting. Two of my favorite restaurants in Jax.
Quote from: Captain Zissou on April 26, 2013, 10:55:28 AM
Anyone remember Pom's back in the day?! Still one of my favorite dining experiences in the city. I hope indochine can re-capture some of that magic!!
Hell yeah I remember Pom's. Best Thai food in Jax. Still haven't made it to his new place in Tapestry Park.
I don't think Indochine is trying to replicate/recreate what went on at Pom's. Pom's had more refined food...seafood heavy...lots of different things beyond curries and noodles. Mark (managing owner/partner at Indo) told me it would be the same menu as Indochine, but that Susie (chef; managing partner) was going to play around in the kitchen to expand the options. Not sure if by expanding the menu he meant: (1) more in the Pom's direction, i.e. more refined food; more formal; etc, or (2) more bar-centric, to accompany the Buddha Bar theme downstairs.
Pom's occupied that space for at least 10 years. It would be a shame not to give them a nod in one way or another. When I was younger all I ordered was the Rama Thai Delight. Such fond memories.
Quote from: Captain Zissou on April 26, 2013, 03:28:35 PM
Pom's occupied that space for at least 10 years. It would be a shame not to give them a nod in one way or another. When I was younger all I ordered was the Rama Thai Delight. Such fond memories.
How old are you again? Do you happen to remember a Thai place in that spot before Pom's? I have vague recollections, but can't piece it together. I definitely remember eating there for at least 8 or so years (I'm 27). I grew up in San Marco, but yeah, I remember that place very, very fondly. I still haven't had a Pad Thai, anywhere, as good as Pom's.
Children!
That place (old Pom's) was the Town Pump bar for many, many years before anything else went in there. Mims' bakery was next to the theater and Setzer's was on the far corner at Naldo. Later became a Pic & Save. Went to Southside Grammer school with Betty Mims.
My family lived for several years on Carlo St., now Balis Place, across the street from the Mezrahi family (French Novelty Shoppes). Wonderful people! Had a tremendous crush on Deborah, their daughter, and loved listening to Charlie practice the trumpet in the afternoons. No A/C so we all heard everything.
One of my earliest jobs was selling the Jacksonville Journal on the corner by the theater in the afternoons after school. 10 cents per copy. You've seen the old black & white movies with the paperboy shouting, "Paper, paper!" That was me.
Thread brings back memories!
I'm 26. I don't remember what was there before Pom's. My family didn't venture out of mandarin much before 94 or 95 when my brother went to episcopal.
Great stuff Dog Walker! I love hearing stories about the old neighborhood. I didn't move to Jax until 1997 and by then the San Marco Square transformation had already begun. I do have vague memories of driving through the Square in the mid 80s and thinking it was pretty run down.
Recently I came across a news clipping about a plexiglass bubble that was installed over the fountain (that was eventually replaced by the Lions). Do you remember that? It believe it was installed in the 60s or early 70s to keep the spray from "ruining the ladies hairstyles" as the article stated. It had neon lights but kept fogging up on the inside.
We were moved from the area by the time the bubble went up but I do remember it. Not only did it fog up from the water, but the untreated, mineral rich water made the fog permanent very quickly. It didn't last long and I had completely forgotten it until your post. Thanks!
Someone needs to do a history of the Stockton Company in the history of Jacksonville. They were the predominant development company for our whole area prior to WWII. San Marco, St. Nicholas, Empire Point and on and on.
^Empire Point was a Durkee Properties development by the Durkee family. We've got an Empire Point neighborhood photo tour scheduled to run as tomorrow's front page story.
Here's some more information on Indochine coming to San Marco Square:
http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2013/04/29/thai-restaurant-indochine-to-expand-to.html
Quote from: Captain Zissou on April 26, 2013, 10:55:28 AM
I think the recent resurgence in the SM area can be attributed to Councilwoman Boyer and great leadership from Doug Skiles and the other folks at SMPS, AND the anti-business policies of riverside/Avondale driving potential new business away from that area and over to a business friendly area like SM.
It is a little naive to call Riverside/Avondale anti-business when the area is just booming. SM used to be THE epicenter of Jacksonville. Maybe it was Town Center, or all the construction or perhaps other areas such as R/A and the Beaches taking off but it definitely lost a step to other options around town.
Nice to see it start to come back and I might pop over there to check it out once in a while, but I dont see businesses lining up to move across the river.
Quote from: SunKing on April 29, 2013, 09:12:04 PM
Quote from: Captain Zissou on April 26, 2013, 10:55:28 AM
I think the recent resurgence in the SM area can be attributed to Councilwoman Boyer and great leadership from Doug Skiles and the other folks at SMPS, AND the anti-business policies of riverside/Avondale driving potential new business away from that area and over to a business friendly area like SM.
It is a little naive to call Riverside/Avondale anti-business when the area is just booming. SM used to be THE epicenter of Jacksonville. Maybe it was Town Center, or all the construction or perhaps other areas such as R/A and the Beaches taking off but it definitely lost a step to other options around town.
Nice to see it start to come back and I might pop over there to check it out once in a while, but I dont see businesses lining up to move across the river.
Eh. San Marco Square was always a neighborhood commercial center. It was a damn good one for many years but come on, "epicenter"? It also struggled in the 70s and 80s at the same time other neighborhood town centers did, including in Riverside, and since the 90s it has come back as strong as ever, and probably better.
San Marco has spent less time on the mat and more time on its feet than nearly any other Jacksonville neighborhood. Other neighborhoods - including Riverside - would do well for themselves to study its example.
Quote from: Tacachale on April 29, 2013, 09:41:50 PM
Quote from: SunKing on April 29, 2013, 09:12:04 PM
Quote from: Captain Zissou on April 26, 2013, 10:55:28 AM
I think the recent resurgence in the SM area can be attributed to Councilwoman Boyer and great leadership from Doug Skiles and the other folks at SMPS, AND the anti-business policies of riverside/Avondale driving potential new business away from that area and over to a business friendly area like SM.
It is a little naive to call Riverside/Avondale anti-business when the area is just booming. SM used to be THE epicenter of Jacksonville. Maybe it was Town Center, or all the construction or perhaps other areas such as R/A and the Beaches taking off but it definitely lost a step to other options around town.
Nice to see it start to come back and I might pop over there to check it out once in a while, but I dont see businesses lining up to move across the river.
Eh. San Marco Square was always a neighborhood commercial center. It was a damn good one for many years but come on, "epicenter"? It also struggled in the 70s and 80s at the same time other neighborhood town centers did, including in Riverside, and since the 90s it has come back as strong as ever, and probably better.
San Marco has spent less time on the mat and more time on its feet than nearly any other Jacksonville neighborhood. Other neighborhoods - including Riverside - would do well for themselves to study its example.
Um yeah hmm? I think you have it backwards.
Quick name a new restaurant or bar in San Marco?
Cmon, cmon.
thought so..
And between 95 and 2000 it was the epicenter btw. Just ask anyone that in any part of town that went out.
QuoteQuick name a new restaurant or bar in San Marco?
^New? Aardwolf, Maple Street Biscuit Company, Mezze Bar & Grill, Hurricane Grill is currently expanding and a new Panera is under construction....
Quote from: thelakelander on April 29, 2013, 10:01:20 PM
QuoteQuick name a new restaurant or bar in San Marco?
^New? Aardwolf, Maple Street Biscuit Company, Mezze Bar & Grill, Hurricane Grill is currently expanding and a new Panera is under construction....
talking the Square my friend.
But if we cast a wider net, why would you, in all seriousness, include Hurricanes and Panera in this conversation?
^They're within walking distance. I also thought you were comparing neighborhoods because you didn't mention specific districts such as Five Points verse Park & King or Avondale. Nevertheless, specifically to the Square you have Mezze, Maple Street and Grape & Grain. All those are less than a year old.
Yeah, we weren't "talking the square". Even if we were, nearly any area of town could take a lesson or three from what they've done right.
Quote from: thelakelander on April 29, 2013, 10:26:26 PM
^They're within walking distance. I also thought you were comparing neighborhoods because you didn't mention specific districts such as Five Points verse Park & King or Avondale. Nevertheless, specifically to the Square you have Mezze, Maple Street and Grape & Grain. All those are less than a year old.
why would you even walk to Hurricanes?
Quote from: Tacachale on April 29, 2013, 10:42:06 PM
Yeah, we weren't "talking the square". Even if we were, nearly any area of town could take a lesson or three from what they've done right.
What specifically has been done right? Even in our part of town, we tend to prefer our chain restaurants in our two Publix shopping centers.
Like i said, happy to see it but I think it is hard to compare Southbank/San Marco/St Nicholas/University with everything going on across the bridges right now.
^The park under construction now is something that any neighborhood or area in town would be lucky to move from concept to construction so quick.
Yes. We've mentioned a pretty substantial number of specific things already. I'd say the fact that the neighborhood organizations have actively promoted basically all of those specifics, and in some cases spearheaded them, is pretty enviable. At any rate, we don't need to pit neighborhoods against each other to see how beneficial this kind of thinking can be.
So Sunking, Hurricane wings is too far away from the square to include in the list, but you are considering the Roosevelt square mall in your definition of Riverside/Avondale? That seems fair. In addition to the number of bars and restaurants that Ennis was able to quickly list (he missed the expansion of high tide burrito and Parlor), I was also thinking about the recent projects that have been spearheaded by the neighborhood groups to make the area safer and better. For example, the groundswale project at the SM library and the improved pedestrian connections for children biking to Landon middle school. The San Marco square park is a just another item in a long list of positive steps for the neighborhood.
In the past year (I know because I lived over there at the time), R/A has had the garage, dhalia's, black sheep, and derby open up. The only one that received any assistance from RAP was maybe Derby. dhalia's can tell you their Rap horror stories and blak sheep was outright opposed by the neighborhood, but was able to open despite that opposition. The now famous MM debacle is another example of the neighborhood working against it's small business owners. Alpha Dog cited rap as a reason they were forced to close.
Thank you for assuming that I don't know what I'm talking about, but I believe you are the one who is mistaken in this instance.
I recently had a conversation with two friends who own businesses in San Marco and Riverside that reminded me of this thread. The one in Riverside plans to add outdoor street-front seating to his business, which is in a non-contributing building. This would be a definite benefit to that street, but the plan was held up for over a year while RAP and city zoning duked it out over the type of fencing he could put around it. Meanwhile, the guy over in San Marco couldn't have had a more different experience. He got nothing but support and enthusiasm from SMPS and residents in general, and much effective help from his city councilperson, Lori Boyer. There's certainly a need to maintain the neighborhood, in Riverside as in anywhere, but there has to be a better way to do it than tying up someone's business for a whole year when they try to do something new and positive.
Quote from: Tacachale on June 28, 2013, 05:15:13 PM
I recently had a conversation with two friends who own businesses in San Marco and Riverside that reminded me of this thread. The one in Riverside plans to add outdoor street-front seating to his business, which is in a non-contributing building. This would be a definite benefit to that street, but the plan was held up for over a year while RAP and city zoning duked it out over the type of fencing he could put around it. Meanwhile, the guy over in San Marco couldn't have had a more different experience. He got nothing but support and enthusiasm from SMPS and residents in general, and much effective help from his city councilperson, Lori Boyer. There's certainly a need to maintain the neighborhood, in Riverside as in anywhere, but there has to be a better way to do it than tying up someone's business for a whole year when they try to do something new and positive.
+1
While HPC argues about where to put ATM's and landscaping in a non-contributing spot in Riverside for a year, Springfield houses are coming down in "emergency" demolitions. Get a grip. Yes, historic preservation is important...very important. Yes, ambiance is important...very important. I completely agree. But move it along. Figure it out and be reasonable.
And then help those who are struggling. :-)
Quote from: Tacachale on June 28, 2013, 05:15:13 PM
I recently had a conversation with two friends who own businesses in San Marco and Riverside that reminded me of this thread. The one in Riverside plans to add outdoor street-front seating to his business, which is in a non-contributing building. This would be a definite benefit to that street, but the plan was held up for over a year while RAP and city zoning duked it out over the type of fencing he could put around it. Meanwhile, the guy over in San Marco couldn't have had a more different experience. He got nothing but support and enthusiasm from SMPS and residents in general, and much effective help from his city councilperson, Lori Boyer. There's certainly a need to maintain the neighborhood, in Riverside as in anywhere, but there has to be a better way to do it than tying up someone's business for a whole year when they try to do something new and positive.
Couldn't agree more.
It is important to note that Riverside-Avondale is a national historic district...San Marco is not
Historic district or not, time is money in the business world. Hopefully, that issue has been resolved. It should not take a year to approve a fence/outdoor seating in any setting.
Quote from: tufsu1 on June 29, 2013, 09:30:56 AM
It is important to note that Riverside-Avondale is a national historic district...San Marco is not
So what? Is that a reason to delay expansion of a business for over a year? RAP has zero authority to hold up approval of a request in the overlay. Unfortunately, various City departments employ RAP members or board members, which seems to me to be a pretty serious ethical violation. Why do the Planning Department and HPC feel the need to receive RAP's approval on any action taken in Riverside Avondale? No other not for profit in this city has that type of pull.
Quote from: MEGATRON on June 29, 2013, 10:19:43 AM
Quote from: tufsu1 on June 29, 2013, 09:30:56 AM
It is important to note that Riverside-Avondale is a national historic district...San Marco is not
So what?
It means that approvals of things can, and usually do, take longer
Quote from: tufsu1 on June 29, 2013, 10:56:55 AM
Quote from: MEGATRON on June 29, 2013, 10:19:43 AM
Quote from: tufsu1 on June 29, 2013, 09:30:56 AM
It is important to note that Riverside-Avondale is a national historic district...San Marco is not
So what?
It means that approvals of things can, and usually do, take longer
But they should not take an extra year, would you not agree? Especially for the project discussed above. Sadly, the primary reason approvals take longer in Riverside Avondale is RAP.
RAP opposed to Blacksheep? LoL! Concerns and conversations, yes. One of Blacksheep's partners is on the RAP board now and President of the 5 Points Merchants Assn. Class act on all sides.
Blacksheep is a great example of how conversation and cooperation between businesses and neighborhood organizations makes a great combination.
Alpha Dog was making excuses for a bad business plan and being arrogant and insensitive to the problems they were creating with their neighbors. Can't serve outside so we went out of business? Whine, whine, whine! Pobrocito. BS!
Spin away, Stephen. Doesn't change the facts on the ground. Jonathon didn't have to have more money than anyone else. He had good sense and wanted to make as many people happy with his businesses as possible. "What can we do to fit in here." Good attitudes, good discussions, reasonable people on both sides. Good compromises, no hangovers.
Ever heard of any problems with Orsay and the neighbors?
Hot dogs and beer and bad music don't make a business in a bad location, but none of us likes to admit we goofed.
Let it be.
RAP has as many diverse opinions in it as this forum does and just because some members howled like dogs with their tales stepped on doesn't change the actions and opinions of the majority of the board in that organization that has welcomed Blacksheep into the neighborhood.
Because of the size and scale it scared a lot of people at first, but Jonathon and Allan did a great job of explaining and selling the concept. They are good people and the good people in RAP, who are not the loudest, worked together very well. Lots of respect on both sides and a great outcome.
RAP is currently working on a plan to improve the pedestrian safety and access in 5 Points for the benefit of allthe businesses. They are not the anti-business, window police that you are trying to paint them.
You like RAM? Thank, RAP.
Stephen and I actually agree on something.
(http://righttruth.typepad.com/.a/6a00d83451c49a69e2017eead99cd1970d-800wi)
Quote from: thelakelander on June 29, 2013, 10:03:15 AM
Historic district or not, time is money in the business world. Hopefully, that issue has been resolved. It should not take a year to approve a fence/outdoor seating in any setting.
Yes, exactly. The issue has been resolved and is moving forward and hopefully all involved will be satisfied with the result, especially my friend and his customers. This wasn't only an issue with RAP, there was a disagreement between RAP and the zoning department, and the owner was left swinging in the wind for a year and getting no help. Yes, Riverside is a historic district, but it's a non-contributing structure and opening up that storefront with outside seating is an enhancement to that street. A year of dispute over a fence. That's just too long for a business owner to be out of the loop on their own project.
Both my friends had issues with the city which are far more problematic, but they had very different experiences with their respective neighborhoods. I brought it up as San Marco seems to have struck a good balance between preservation and planning, and encouraging business growth. I don't think these are isolated experiences.
Quote from: Tacachale on July 01, 2013, 04:07:12 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on June 29, 2013, 10:03:15 AM
Historic district or not, time is money in the business world. Hopefully, that issue has been resolved. It should not take a year to approve a fence/outdoor seating in any setting.
Yes, exactly. The issue has been resolved and is moving forward and hopefully all involved will be satisfied with the result, especially my friend and his customers. This wasn't only an issue with RAP, there was a disagreement between RAP and the zoning department, and the owner was left swinging in the wind for a year and getting no help. Yes, Riverside is a historic district, but it's a non-contributing structure and opening up that storefront with outside seating is an enhancement to that street. A year of dispute over a fence. That's just too long for a business owner to be out of the loop on their own project.
Both my friends had issues with the city which are far more problematic, but they had very different experiences with their respective neighborhoods. I brought it up as San Marco seems to have struck a good balance between preservation and planning, and encouraging business growth. I don't think these are isolated experiences.
thats the problem though. Why should a disagreement between zoning and RAP slow approval. RAP support is not necessary.
Quote from: Captain Zissou on April 30, 2013, 07:57:56 AM
So Sunking, Hurricane wings is too far away from the square to include in the list, but you are considering the Roosevelt square mall in your definition of Riverside/Avondale? That seems fair.
Um I don't recall mentioning Roosevelt Mall. Its not something I would have even brought to the conversation. Like Panera and Hurricanes.
Quote from: SunKing on July 01, 2013, 09:05:26 PM
Quote from: Captain Zissou on April 30, 2013, 07:57:56 AM
So Sunking, Hurricane wings is too far away from the square to include in the list, but you are considering the Roosevelt square mall in your definition of Riverside/Avondale? That seems fair.
Um I don't recall mentioning Roosevelt Mall. Its not something I would have even brought to the conversation. Like Panera and Hurricanes.
Quote from: SunKing on April 29, 2013, 10:54:18 PM
What specifically has been done right? Even in our part of town, we tend to prefer our chain restaurants in our two Publix shopping centers.
Perhaps i was too subtle in my sarcasm. Next time i will reserve it for folks who understand the difference between a Hurricane Wings and say a Salty Fig.
Quote from: thelakelander on April 29, 2013, 10:01:20 PM
QuoteQuick name a new restaurant or bar in San Marco?
^New? Aardwolf, Maple Street Biscuit Company, Mezze Bar & Grill, Hurricane Grill is currently expanding and a new Panera is under construction....
I was the one who mentioned Hurricane Grill in response to SunKing's request to quickly name a new restaurant or bar in San Marco. I wasn't aware that certain restrictions applied in the definition of what a new restaurant or bar actually is. :)
So Salty Fig is a restaurant and Hurricane Grill isn't? Do you consider Aardwolf's tap room a type of bar?
Quote from: thelakelander on July 02, 2013, 08:41:07 AM
Quote from: thelakelander on April 29, 2013, 10:01:20 PM
QuoteQuick name a new restaurant or bar in San Marco?
^New? Aardwolf, Maple Street Biscuit Company, Mezze Bar & Grill, Hurricane Grill is currently expanding and a new Panera is under construction....
I was the one who mentioned Hurricane Grill in response to SunKing's request to quickly name a new restaurant or bar in San Marco. I wasn't aware that certain restrictions applied in the definition of what a new restaurant or bar actually is. :)
So Salty Fig is a restaurant and Hurricane Grill isn't? Do you consider Aardwolf's tap room a type of bar?
Sunking has defined their own rules about what makes an area more successful than another area. Of course, the same rules don't apply to the areas. Hurricanes can be dismissed cause it's a "chain". R/A can apparently stretch the whole area, Five points to Park and King, but you can't count Aardwolf in San Marco, despite the fact that it is the same distance from the square as Intuition is from Pele's. In fact, Hurricanes is just barely further from the square than Kickbacks is from Pele's. And Grape and Grain and Parlour can only count as 1 bar, Indochine taking over Square One probably doesn't count since the 2 locations make it a "chain".
After reviewing these rules, I can see why Sunking thinks R/A is way more successful than San Marco.
^Yes, it does seem the scope of the discussion changes with every post. But none of it seems to take away from Captain Zissou's original point that San Marco has seen a lot of positive growth in part due to effective leadership, and a number of businesses have had negative experiences trying to open up in Riverside-Avondale.
But San Marco doesn't have a street named after the sister of a famous astronomer either. ;D
In an attempt to steer this towards the original post.... 1st Place Sports is moving into the old Edward's space that is adjacent to their current location. The move will give them an additional 1,000 square feet, or a 50% increase in square footage. The build out is going on now, with the move date set for some time in august.
Stephen, maybe I'm missing something, but logistically I don't see much difference between San Marco "Square" and Five Points. Roads coming together at funny angles, mostly local retail on both sides, somewhat limited but mostly adequate parking, and the only difference I can really see is the median is wider in San Marco, making a "square" that Five Points doesn't have. I like both of them, don't get me wrong. But I don't see a ton of difference in them logistically, honestly. As someone who has lived in Jacksonville since 1966, I've seen both areas go through good and bad times, but I somehow missed "the San Marco Fountain bubble" thankfully.
Quote from: stephendare on July 02, 2013, 09:51:51 AM
Quote from: tufsu1 on June 29, 2013, 09:30:56 AM
It is important to note that Riverside-Avondale is a national historic district...San Marco is not
I think its also important to note that several streets in Riverside are named after presidents. Yet this is not true in San Marco. .....Coincidence?
And dude, if you really think about it, there has to be some significance behind the fact that San Marco has a 'square' and Riverside has a five points. Marinate in those differences.
humor me...check out the requirements and regulations of the two historic districts
The infamous San Marco Fountain Bubble:
(http://i42.tinypic.com/2vv1b13.jpg)
From the May 1994 issue of San Marco Times:
Quote
In 1964, the fountain became part of an unusual experiment that created a bit of controversy at the time. The fountain would be shut down frequently due to "wind blow" where spray from the fountain would be blown over pedestrians and parked cars, creating a nuisance for shoppers and store owners. A bill sponsored by Southside Councilman Lavern Reynolds granted $4800 to reactivate the water flow, add neon lights and put a plexiglass "bubble" over the fountain to stop the wind blow spray. The bubble also kept trash from clogging the water pipes. At the time, Reynolds said "Upon completion, we have hopes it will be something all of the Southside will be proud of."
However, condensation fogged the plexiglass bubble, obscuring the beauty of the fountain. Disapproving merchants, who hoped the fountain would draw shoppers, viewed the fountain as "an accumulation of war surplus parts," "a monstrosity" and "something ready to take off into outer space." The experiment failed and the bubble was removed.
Quote from: tufsu1 on July 02, 2013, 12:54:25 PM
Quote from: stephendare on July 02, 2013, 09:51:51 AM
Quote from: tufsu1 on June 29, 2013, 09:30:56 AM
It is important to note that Riverside-Avondale is a national historic district...San Marco is not
I think its also important to note that several streets in Riverside are named after presidents. Yet this is not true in San Marco. .....Coincidence?
And dude, if you really think about it, there has to be some significance behind the fact that San Marco has a 'square' and Riverside has a five points. Marinate in those differences.
humor me...check out the requirements and regulations of the two historic districts
Would you agree that those requirements within Riverside-Avondale are implemented by the city and not RAP?
I would agree that the rules are governed by the City (and relate to local and national preservation status)....but the City does seek guidance from RAP on many of the compatibility issues
Actually the R/A zoning overlay was the result of three years of neighborhood meetings, planning sessions, professional input from planners all coordinated by RAP and the Planning Dept. Lots and lots of different input from a wide variety of people (stakeholders in modern speak) both residents and businesses and merchant's associations.
Lots of discussion, argument and compromise. It's probably a really good model of how zoning should be developed.
Good news for SM. went up there with family this week for dinner and a movie. My only point remains that with all of the growth in RA i do struggle to find a lesson to be learned from SM recent revival however.
particularly Hurricanes.
Quote from: Dog Walker on July 02, 2013, 05:11:27 PM
Actually the R/A zoning overlay was the result of three years of neighborhood meetings, planning sessions, professional input from planners all coordinated by RAP and the Planning Dept. Lots and lots of different input from a wide variety of people (stakeholders in modern speak) both residents and businesses and merchant's associations.
Lots of discussion, argument and compromise. It's probably a really good model of how zoning should be developed.
The zoning overlay basically just says what type of building currently sits on that parcel. Unless I'm looking at the wrong thing, I fail to see why the overlay is such a lauded thing for the neighborhood. In my opinion, it limits the neighborhood more than it helps it.
Quote from: SunKing on July 03, 2013, 01:05:57 AM
Good news for SM. went up there with family this week for dinner and a movie. My only point remains that with all of the growth in RA i do struggle to find a lesson to be learned from SM recent revival however.
particularly Hurricanes.
What about the Hurricane's? It's a chain?
Quote from: SunKing on July 03, 2013, 01:05:57 AM
Good news for SM. went up there with family this week for dinner and a movie. My only point remains that with all of the growth in RA i do struggle to find a lesson to be learned from SM recent revival however.
particularly Hurricanes.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/2599658328_9v7TN3p-M.jpg)
I think one thing any neighborhood could take advantage of is the process used in SM to fund, construct, and maintain the expansion of Balis Park. All of that has essentially taken less time than the fence approval process that Tacachale's friend had to go through.
Yeah, but that fence could make or break the neighborhood!!! Do you know how many people are more likely to throw their beer bottles or park on somebody's lawn because of a fence!? Thousands.
Quote from: thelakelander on July 03, 2013, 08:05:08 AM
Quote from: SunKing on July 03, 2013, 01:05:57 AM
Good news for SM. went up there with family this week for dinner and a movie. My only point remains that with all of the growth in RA i do struggle to find a lesson to be learned from SM recent revival however.
particularly Hurricanes.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/2599658328_9v7TN3p-M.jpg)
I think one thing any neighborhood could take advantage of is the process used in SM to fund, construct, and maintain the expansion of Balis Park. All of that has essentially taken less time than the fence approval process that Tacachale's friend had to go through.
Yes, that's a fabulous comparison.
I don't get how Atlanta and Nashville can have these similar historic districts and see meaningful business development in them, as well as new construction, and yet Jacksonville's languishes in contrast, a constant bitter fight between people. What's the difference? I wish people would also realize that we are talking about 70-90 year old homes in a streetcar suburb, which is only historic for the Sunbelt but newer than many suburbs in other parts of the country.
There will always be people looking for an old home in an established neighborhood, but there are also folks looking for new or modern housing in that same established neighborhood, and RAP cuts them out, perpetually keeping RA values depressed from their potential and hurting the city's tax base and the local residents as a result. Not to mention their business killing attitude also has the same effect of holding the neighborhood back and likely keeping values super depressed from their potential.
Stodgy old-timers and their occasionally equally stodgy children are simply a super vocal minority who have too much time to stress themselves out with "change" and sit on boards and instill regime-like control over what they still deem as "their" neighborhood. Chill out dudes - you're 60+, semi-retired at least, you still have the Yacht Club and Timucuana, you still have your old house that smells like mothballs, what more do you want/need? Just enjoy those things and let some younger folks open businesses they wish to frequent rather than spend the last 20 years of breath in your life fighting folks younger and likely more energetic than yourself. Sorry, your time is up.
Also - every city has these NIMBY groups. SF probably has the most extreme NIMBYs in the country and in fact any retailer with more than 11 locations internationally is now forboden from opening a new location in SF county limits). Then again, this is a city that can be extremely anti-growth in this day and age because the city will always be very cool and attractive to new generations and the economy serves as the worldwide base of entire new-age industries.
It's just that Jax doesn't really have what SF has and frankly could use any economic development anywhere it can get, especially the core. If Atlanta isn't a real NIMBY city, despite having larger and older areas and more kooky preservationists, then Jax shouldn't be as extreme as it is. I think it's evident that due to low COL and warm climate, people will be moving to NE FL regardless. Do we want them all choosing SJC and the SS, or would we want to direct some of that traffic to the core? Schools will never make the core attractive, but vibrancy with businesses and the ability to build things will. Can't replicate RA in SJC, but RA's uniqueness is killed when groups like RAP prevent all growth and change.
QuoteI don't get how Atlanta and Nashville can have these similar historic districts and see meaningful business development in them, as well as new construction, and yet Jacksonville's languishes in contrast, a constant bitter fight between people. What's the difference?
Not being from Jacksonville, I think some of the stuff you mention is more market rated than anything that RAP or the zoning overlay controls. Take this thread for instance. It's gone from an original post about a couple of business expansions in San Marco Square to a weird Riverside vs San Marco debate. In reality, despite the differences each neighborhood takes with zoning and development issues, neither is really bursting at the seems with the infill density that many similar neighborhoods across the country are experiencing. That's not an indictment on them, but this seems to be the case of Jacksonville in general.
From my experiences, it seems that Jax remains a few years behind many of its peers in embracing many urban development trends. Several other places have dealt with many of the issues we're dealing with now, those situations have been resolved one way or the other than time has moved on. I do believe we'll eventually get there (ex. we're now seeing development in Brooklyn that consumed the rest of the country's urban centers a decade ago). I also believe that once the market is right, the zoning overlays allow for new infill in and around Riverside. My major concern from a zoning perspective is the autocentric regulations being applied everywhere outside of Riverside, downtown, and Springfield.
Nevertheless, I see Riverside and San Marco as two "haves". Personally, I'd like to see the wealth and revitalization spread around a little to neighborhoods like Springfield, Murray Hill, Durkeeville, LaVilla and the Eastside.
Quote from: thelakelander on July 03, 2013, 10:15:39 PM
QuoteI don't get how Atlanta and Nashville can have these similar historic districts and see meaningful business development in them, as well as new construction, and yet Jacksonville's languishes in contrast, a constant bitter fight between people. What's the difference?
Not being from Jacksonville, I think some of the stuff you mention is more market rated than anything that RAP or the zoning overlay controls. Take this thread for instance. It's gone from an original post about a couple of business expansions in San Marco Square to a weird Riverside vs San Marco debate. In reality, despite the differences each neighborhood takes with zoning and development issues, neither is really bursting at the seems with the infill density that many similar neighborhoods across the country are experiencing. That's not an indictment on them, but this seems to be the case of Jacksonville in general.
From my experiences, it seems that Jax remains a few years behind many of its peers in embracing many urban development trends. Several other places have dealt with many of the issues we're dealing with now, those situations have been resolved one way or the other than time has moved on. I do believe we'll eventually get there (ex. we're now seeing development in Brooklyn that consumed the rest of the country's urban centers a decade ago). I also believe that once the market is right, the zoning overlays allow for new infill in and around Riverside. My major concern from a zoning perspective is the autocentric regulations being applied everywhere outside of Riverside, downtown, and Springfield.
Nevertheless, I see Riverside and San Marco as two "haves". Personally, I'd like to see the wealth and revitalization spread around a little to neighborhoods like Springfield, Murray Hill, Durkeeville, LaVilla and the Eastside.
Couldn't agree more
Lake spot on!
Lake I agree, there is no truly hot neighborhood in Jax. Do you think that Jax has the zoning setup to see such commercial development, and do you think the problem is more to do with local NIMBYism or more to do with economic situations that ward off the capital and developers who would swoop in to oversee such projects, large and small?
We are landlords in similar areas as Avondale or San Marco...the city of SF has become very expensive (<5.75% yield due to compressed cap rates and $100M+/acre land), so we are looking at street retail instead in the burbs. On the west coast - Berkeley, Burlingame, Abbot Kinney in LA, LaJolla, Pasadena, Melrose, etc etc. Like their larger city peers (Newbury in Boston, Union Square in SF, South Beach, Hyde Park in Chicago, etc) these were commercial portfolios assembled, built/redeveloped, and leased over 30-50 years by eccentric and creative guys who won the hearts of the locals. In addition to local shops and restaurants, these streets now have credit retailers carefully selected - Apple, Williams Sonoma, Pottery Barn, Banana Republic, etc. Now larger family trusts and institutional players such as my own firm are swooping in for the opportunity.
I don't know what all battles these guys fought over the years, either with locals or convincing national retailers to come in. I do know that they all helped bankroll many of the local business owners initially, like seed money or a traditional equity partner. The entitlement process in Berkeley alone is 18 months if you have a guy like local Denny Abrams negotiating for you. 24-48 months if you are an "outsider". Locals will protest if they don't like you or your concept. So this all goes on - BUT the locals aren't necessarily anti all development. They just want it done right for their communities. The economics are also there, and I'm not really sure they are in most of Jax, even in supposedly wealthy Avondale or San Marco, etc.
Maybe Avondale just hasn't met the guy yet who can win the hearts of RAP and locals. Maybe nobody is willing to step up, not because of the hard fight it will require, but because the economics in general aren't really there to see a thriving commercial setup and the prospect is dim in the long run.
Quote from: simms3 on July 05, 2013, 01:42:31 AM
Lake I agree, there is no truly hot neighborhood in Jax. Do you think that Jax has the zoning setup to see such commercial development, and do you think the problem is more to do with local NIMBYism or more to do with economic situations that ward off the capital and developers who would swoop in to oversee such projects, large and small?
I think the areas that have zoning overlays (ex. Riverside/Springfield/Downtown, etc.) have zoning regulations and policies that are more suitable for urban infill than the rest of Jax, which is just as autocentric oriented as it can get. IMO, it should be easier to get something like Black Sheep approved in the urban core than the incompatible stuff Family Dollar has been plopping in economically distressed neighborhoods across the city. With that said, I do believe San Marco's San Marco by Design study will make it easier to do these projects in San Marco if it ends up resulting in a zoning overlay that better facilities it.
I also don't think NIMBYism is a major deterrent. Just about everyone has something negative to say when Walmart proposes a new location but it hasn't stop them from becoming the nation's largest retailer. I'd say it's probably more economic related.
Even now, I'd argue the infill that's popping up around SJTC/Tinseltown (Deerwood Lofts, Tapestry Park, Uptown, etc.) should be the type of infill product being built in and around downtown. Yet, we got very little during last decade's nationwide urban infill boom and even now, all we have is 220 Riverside currently under construction.
What's the reason your company invests in secondary markets like Austin, Orlando, and Nashville but not Jax? What do you think can be done to change this?
The "Round Abouts" are quite annoying...when will JSO be parked nearby for "Trolling"
At the very least picking up people for Plowing across the stupid circle.
Is this to keep people on 95?
A "Spanking to the normal driver"? that dared to cut through San Marco for the last 25 years?
Did the local Business owners have a say in this stupid traffic re-direction?
.
Round-a-bouts are a form of traffic calming.....
Quote from: Ernest Street on July 05, 2013, 11:12:21 PM
Did the local Business owners have a say in this stupid traffic re-direction?
yes, they were involved...think of it this way, cars travelling north now pass by shops on both sides of the square.
I have observed the traffic flow during the afternoon peak a few times and everything seems to work just fine...cars pretty much move continuously (albeit slowly) except when allowing pedestrians to cross of someone is trying to parallel park on Balis
San Marco resident here, the roundabout has been awesome for traffic flow in the area and has made it much easier to walk through the square since cars have a much more predictable route and drivers aren't preoccupied with switching lanes to pass cars/ find parking.
I drive by there everyday and agree it is much moire pleasant drive now