The question of skyway expansion is not new but with the development planned for Brooklyn wouldn't now be the time for JTA and Jacksonville to take a long overdue step and extend the skyway? I think so. I wonder if anyone has any idea as to what the cost's per mile would be for such an undertaking? It would seem that an extension to Brooklyn would be a win for transportation and downtown. It might also put some excitement behind expansion to other areas. It's time to grow the skyway and by extension bring more life to the core!
I saw the SkyWay packed during the OneSpark festival. There's now proof that people will ride if there's a reason to. And if they were to extend it far enough, people would pay to use it.
Quote from: urbaknight on April 22, 2013, 05:04:48 PM
I saw the SkyWay packed during the OneSpark festival. There's now proof that people will ride if there's a reason to. And if they were to extend it far enough, people would pay to use it.
Truth and the people riding were enjoying it. Seriously, if it actually went outside of the downtown parameters it would see much more use. For the past several years no politician wanted to touch the issue. With the push of City Hall and private industries behind downtown, this is clearly the time to move from the stigma of seeing the skyway as a "White Elephant" when in fact it could now grow to be a viable transportation asset.
We asked this question in an article back in December. There was a ton of feedback and discussion at the time. Here's a link:
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2012-dec-the-role-of-mass-transit-in-brooklyns-renaissance
Thanks Ennis. Do you think JTA and city officials would be a bit more willing to consider this after the success of One Spark? Also in looking that the article using the link above, I see figures for streetcar expansion. Do you know of any figures regarding cost per mile for skyway extension?
At it's cheapest, probably $20 million or more per mile. However, if you put an no-frills stop at the O&M center, the costs would be significantly lower because the Skyway is already there. Personally, I think once you talk about really extending it, you have to seriously evaluate if you're better off, leaving it as is and complementing it with a cheaper fixed streetcar system that penetrates deeply into Riverside.
As far as the JTA and COJ, the best chance for better fixed transit funding in the downtown area will come with the creation of the DIA's CRA plan.
I see your point Ennis. Are you talking streetcars on rails?
Yes. If the goal is to connect downtown and surrounding neighborhoods with real reliable fixed (ex. meaning the route doesn't disappear or relocate overnight), it will be cheaper and easier to get a streetcar extended into Riverside than the Skyway.
Quote from: thelakelander on April 22, 2013, 05:44:12 PM
Yes. If the goal is to connect downtown and surrounding neighborhoods with real reliable fixed (ex. meaning the route doesn't disappear or relocate overnight), it will be cheaper and easier to get a streetcar extended into Riverside than the Skyway.
I could get behind this in a nano second. I think now more than ever before connectivity is key to the growth folks want downtown and elsewhere.
The cost of the streetcar line connecting downtown to Riverside is supposed to be funded 100% by the mobility fee. Unfortunately, when council refuses to collect a fee for new development, projects like this continue to get pushed into the distant future.
I think they should extended it to the sports complex first.
Quote from: Rynjny on April 22, 2013, 06:07:42 PM
I think they should extended it to the sports complex first.
It would likely draw less ridership, serve less residents and spur less economic development while costing twice as much.
Quote from: thelakelander on April 22, 2013, 06:19:46 PM
Quote from: Rynjny on April 22, 2013, 06:07:42 PM
I think they should extended it to the sports complex first.
It would likely draw less ridership, serve less residents and spur less economic development while costing twice as much.
I agree, maybe later if they have some development for the shipyard then they would consider extending it to the sport complex.
Quote from: thelakelander on April 22, 2013, 06:07:21 PM
The cost of the streetcar line connecting downtown to Riverside is supposed to be funded 100% by the mobility fee. Unfortunately, when council refuses to collect a fee for new development, projects like this continue to get pushed into the distant future.
Reading this and realizing how true it is makes me just plain angry at the leadership that allows this to continue in order to preserve political favor and standing with certain entities in this city over what is good for the entire community. It's flat wrong no matter how cleverly it is spun to appear otherwise.
Stephendare, LOL ROFLMAO
Rynjny, streetcar has a significant advantage over the Skyway running NORTH from the stadium to Gateway. private-(city owned)-right-of-way extends from the back of the Maxwell House Plant all the way to Gateway. It would make a fantastic lineal Parkway, with streetcar, bike, and pedestrian trail running side by side OFF STREET. Add this to the streetcar from the area of Beaver and AP Randolph to Park and King in Riverside and we'd have a pretty amazing start on a massive infill generator.
Cheshire Cat, we currently have a story in the pipeline on another WIN-WIN angle on bringing the Skyway to Brooklyn and mixing that with a fantastic historic preservation move. I will be speaking with Mr. Ford and the Mayor's office next week on this and a couple of other projects.
like
Quote from: Ocklawaha on April 22, 2013, 07:18:23 PM
Stephendare, LOL ROFLMAO
Rynjny, streetcar has a significant advantage over the Skyway running NORTH from the stadium to Gateway. private-(city owned)-right-of-way extends from the back of the Maxwell House Plant all the way to Gateway. It would make a fantastic lineal Parkway, with streetcar, bike, and pedestrian trail running side by side OFF STREET. Add this to the streetcar from the area of Beaver and AP Randolph to Park and King in Riverside and we'd have a pretty amazing start on a massive infill generator.
Cheshire Cat, we currently have a story in the pipeline on another WIN-WIN angle on bringing the Skyway to Brooklyn and mixing that with a fantastic historic preservation move. I will be speaking with Mr. Ford and the Mayor's office next week on this and a couple of other projects.
Well Bob, this is exciting news! :)
Quote from: Ocklawaha on April 22, 2013, 07:18:23 PM
Stephendare, LOL ROFLMAO
Rynjny, streetcar has a significant advantage over the Skyway running NORTH from the stadium to Gateway. private-(city owned)-right-of-way extends from the back of the Maxwell House Plant all the way to Gateway. It would make a fantastic lineal Parkway, with streetcar, bike, and pedestrian trail running side by side OFF STREET. Add this to the streetcar from the area of Beaver and AP Randolph to Park and King in Riverside and we'd have a pretty amazing start on a massive infill generator.
Cheshire Cat, we currently have a story in the pipeline on another WIN-WIN angle on bringing the Skyway to Brooklyn and mixing that with a fantastic historic preservation move. I will be speaking with Mr. Ford and the Mayor's office next week on this and a couple of other projects.
:) *crosses fingers
It seems that the logical progression of Jacksonville mass transit would be a well connected core of Skyway stations and a core that connects outer neighborhoods by street car. If street cars could bring people to the edge of the core and skyway connects all points of the core, what more could you want...
With my limited understanding of the transit systems, I think the Skyway's best extension will be further into San Marco after the East San Marco project is completed. Streetcars will serve the stadium and Riverside just fine.
Quote from: ProjectMaximus on April 23, 2013, 12:43:51 AM
With my limited understanding of the transit systems, I think the Skyway's best extension will be further into San Marco after the East San Marco project is completed. Streetcars will serve the stadium and Riverside just fine.
Agree!
Interesting that none of the suggestions being thrown out by anyone include the only system that JTA is currently designing ... BRT.
BRT is and has always been JTA's baby that the community has been reluctant to sell. Part of the problem is that in the past, it has been promoted as a more cost effective and better alternative to other forms of fixed transit. Another problem is that most of the system has been designed along routes that parallel rail corridors and Skyway corridors.
With that said, BRT isn't a bad thing. There is a place for BRT-lite style service in Jacksonville. At its core, it would help if it could be promoted for what it really is.......reliable and understandable frequent bus service that most expect out of cities Jax's size. It's not rail and it doesn't significantly stimulate TOD on its own. It does no one any good to sell it as such a thing. IMO, it's just something that needs to be coordinated and implemented with other transit initiatives that have greater economic development opportunities and higher abilities to attract choice riders.
Well about a month ago, I used the Culver BRT from LAX to Culver City. I did not feel that the BRT was much different than just having a typical city bus. Every person that got on got in a fight with the driver over the fair. Some guy tried to bring a 50" flat screen on board and fought with the driver for 10 mins before we could depart again. I feel we should just call it what it is: another city bus.
Quote from: thelakelander on April 22, 2013, 06:19:46 PM
Quote from: Rynjny on April 22, 2013, 06:07:42 PM
I think they should extended it to the sports complex first.
It would likely draw less ridership, serve less residents and spur less economic development while costing twice as much.
I respectfully disagree. Not because of the sports complex -- you would certainly see bursts of ridership from time to time but nothing consistent at that stop. The real benefit of taking the skyway to the sports complex, however, is the crucial service of Bay street beyond Hogan.
This "stub" at Bay and Hogan is where they could extend it down Bay: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Jacksonville_Skyway_stub.jpg
It looks to me like there could be room for a stop at Bay & Ocean (serving busy places like CoWork Jax, Hyatt Regency, the Florida Theatre, public offices, and the nightlife/restaurants there). That would be the biggest benefit of an expansion down Bay, continuing on from there to the sports complex. Maybe only run the sports complex extension from Bay & Ocean every 15 minutes during weekday business hours, but every 5-7 minutes during weekends or weeknight events.
But, to your other points, BRT could work equally as well down that corridor. It would just be frustrating to riders to have to switch transit modes to get from Riverside to the sports complex as an example by going Streetcar then Skyway then BRT, further alienating the skyway.
Quote from: jcjohnpaint on April 23, 2013, 09:20:02 AM
Well about a month ago, I used the Culver BRT from LAX to Culver City. I did not feel that the BRT was much different than just having a typical city bus. Every person that got on got in a fight with the driver over the fair. Some guy tried to bring a 50" flat screen on board and fought with the driver for 10 mins before we could depart again. I feel we should just call it what it is: another city bus.
Lol. Two years ago, while in LA, I transferred from LRT to the Silver Line BRT to get from LAX to downtown LA. The Silver Line was a bus painted Silver than ran in freeway HOV lanes with limited stops along the way. It was fine to me but yes, it was just another bus. Although, there was no presence of TOD along the route, I was most impressed that it had been implemented seemingly without major federal assistance. I wonder why we can't do the same by modifying our system utilizing existing buses?
Quote from: paulirwin on April 23, 2013, 09:27:30 AM
Quote from: thelakelander on April 22, 2013, 06:19:46 PM
Quote from: Rynjny on April 22, 2013, 06:07:42 PM
I think they should extended it to the sports complex first.
It would likely draw less ridership, serve less residents and spur less economic development while costing twice as much.
I respectfully disagree. Not because of the sports complex -- you would certainly see bursts of ridership from time to time but nothing consistent at that stop. The real benefit of taking the skyway to the sports complex, however, is the crucial service of Bay street beyond Hogan.
This "stub" at Bay and Hogan is where they could extend it down Bay: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Jacksonville_Skyway_stub.jpg
It looks to me like there could be room for a stop at Bay & Ocean (serving busy places like CoWork Jax, Hyatt Regency, the Florida Theatre, public offices, and the nightlife/restaurants there). That would be the biggest benefit of an expansion down Bay, continuing on from there to the sports complex. Maybe only run the sports complex extension from Bay & Ocean every 15 minutes during weekday business hours, but every 5-7 minutes during weekends or weeknight events.
But, to your other points, BRT could work equally as well down that corridor. It would just be frustrating to riders to have to switch transit modes to get from Riverside to the sports complex as an example by going Streetcar then Skyway then BRT, further alienating the skyway.
Do you disagree on costs? I say this because regardless of what's along the route, the Skyway will cost at least double or triple as much to extend. In terms of ridership, I'd be willing to counter argue that a streetcar line connecting Park & King to DT's Bay Street would directly tie in a larger and more diverse pool of destinations. Off the top of my head, Park & King, St. Vincents, Five Points, Memorial Park, Cummer, BCBS, Fidelity, 200 Riverside, Riverside Place, Haskell, Everbank, etc. would all be connected into the Skyway, with direct service to the Landing, Hyatt and Florida Theatre. You would also position yourself for an easy extension up Newnan Street into Springfield and the Cathedral District.
I still think putting in a "no frills stop at the O&M center" has to be done at the very least. Especially with all the Brooklyn tie in right now. I still think all city and state officials should be forced to use mass transit in Jacksonville at least several times a week as part of there job requirements. If they did we would see a different system pretty quickly.
^Definitely agree. Even if it's as simple as an at-grade platform and bus shelters.
^Yeah that should be a no-brainer even if they never expand it further down that way.
As for Bay Street, while I don't think the sports complex should be the first expansion, there's certainly something to the idea that people won't want to switch modes every few miles or blocks. And I've always thought that access to the sports complex should be crucial to our downtown mass transit.
Quote from: thelakelander on April 23, 2013, 09:35:14 AM
Do you disagree on costs? I say this because regardless of what's along the route, the Skyway will cost at least double or triple as much to extend. In terms of ridership, I'd be willing to counter argue that a streetcar line connecting Park & King to DT's Bay Street would directly tie in a larger and more diverse pool of destinations. Off the top of my head, Park & King, St. Vincents, Five Points, Memorial Park, Cummer, BCBS, Fidelity, 200 Riverside, Riverside Place, Haskell, Everbank, etc. would all be connected into the Skyway, with direct service to the Landing, Hyatt and Florida Theatre. You would also position yourself for an easy extension up Newnan Street into Springfield and the Cathedral District.
I definitely acknowledge a cost to any Skyway expansion (or any mass transit expansion/installation), but we (as a city) should have financially committed to an expansion to east downtown back in 1989. Of course hindsight is 20/20, and most of what we're talking about on this thread is assuming that we can actually get improvements (which include real costs associated with them) passed through our local leadership.
My point, I suppose, was that if you ask anyone why they don't ride the skyway, they call it the "monorail to nowhere". Why? Because the San Marco stops are not walkable, the Prime Osborne is defunct, and it doesn't service east downtown. The only reason why it was popular during One Spark was due to free parking at Prime Osborne and that the Hemming Plaza stop was right in front of the main area. To make the Skyway worthwhile at all, we have to invest in an expansion. I love the Skyway, and I want to see it succeed in creating a vibrant, walkable downtown -- and leaving it as it is will not help it succeed one bit.
A Bay & Ocean stop seems like a great first step, with a commitment plan in place to expand to the sports complex. It would be great for bringing more people downtown during any games or concerts, while helping east-downtown businesses along the way.
There will be a huge push back in this day and age to attempt to extend the riderless express. Sorry but thats what most people think of it. Yes I know roads cost a lot more than this, but people in masses use the roads. extension of the skyway is a dead issue.
Quote from: thelakelander on April 23, 2013, 09:30:36 AM
Quote from: jcjohnpaint on April 23, 2013, 09:20:02 AM
Well about a month ago, I used the Culver BRT from LAX to Culver City. I did not feel that the BRT was much different than just having a typical city bus. Every person that got on got in a fight with the driver over the fair. Some guy tried to bring a 50" flat screen on board and fought with the driver for 10 mins before we could depart again. I feel we should just call it what it is: another city bus.
Lol. Two years ago, while in LA, I transferred from LRT to the Silver Line BRT to get from LAX to downtown LA. The Silver Line was a bus painted Silver than ran in freeway HOV lanes with limited stops along the way. It was fine to me but yes, it was just another bus. Although, there was no presence of TOD along the route, I was most impressed that it had been implemented seemingly without major federal assistance. I wonder why we can't do the same by modifying our system utilizing existing buses?
Kind of funny, but a few years ago, I took the Blue to the Silver BRT when attempting to go downtown. I waited an hour under some overpass pile. I was coughing from all the fumes, so I decided it wasn't coming. Took the train the rest of the route changing in Watts. Seems like the BRT lines run at stations in and around DT, but most of the other ones just act like any other bus.
Quote from: civil42806 on April 23, 2013, 11:25:33 AM
There will be a huge push back in this day and age to attempt to extend the riderless express. Sorry but thats what most people think of it. Yes I know roads cost a lot more than this, but people in masses use the roads. extension of the skyway is a dead issue.
This of course will be the sentiment of some, but perhaps we have finally reached that long sought doorway that will take us in new directions with open minds. While other travel modes would definitely cost less, I would still like to see the no frills stop and yes, one into Brooklyn. Consider this, we live in a town that has a struggling football team floating a 50 million dollar scoreboard. The one the stadium currently has works just fine, but they want to take the next step up regardless and the mayor has already come out in support of the idea as well as some on council. I kind of see an extension to the skyway in this way. Put a bit more money into growing it a bit more and then absolutely add the streetcars on rail. Bob has been saying for years the absolute draw the streetcars would be for our core and he is bang on about that. I am hoping the same vision that brought us a new attitude about what is possible downtown via One Spark, will flow over into other areas of thought and finally open closed minds to a better way of viewing and selling our city. Streetcars would be their own tourist draw for Jacksonville and I would love to see them come in tandem with the skyway to Brooklyn. :)
Quote from: civil42806 on April 23, 2013, 11:25:33 AM
There will be a huge push back in this day and age to attempt to extend the riderless express. Sorry but thats what most people think of it. Yes I know roads cost a lot more than this, but people in masses use the roads. extension of the skyway is a dead issue.
What if the extension was funded by new development that comes as a result through tax increment financing? Would the general public still oppose it? Would it matter if they did?
Quote from: paulirwin on April 23, 2013, 10:24:15 AM
My point, I suppose, was that if you ask anyone why they don't ride the skyway, they call it the "monorail to nowhere". Why? Because the San Marco stops are not walkable, the Prime Osborne is defunct, and it doesn't service east downtown. The only reason why it was popular during One Spark was due to free parking at Prime Osborne and that the Hemming Plaza stop was right in front of the main area. To make the Skyway worthwhile at all, we have to invest in an expansion. I love the Skyway, and I want to see it succeed in creating a vibrant, walkable downtown -- and leaving it as it is will not help it succeed one bit.
You are correct. However, you can expand without actually changing how the Skyway operates. For example, a streetcar that ties into the Skyway at the Prime Osborn and stretches into Riverside actually extends the Skyway's reach and improves its effectiveness. The Skyway was never intended to be a city wide system. Its primarily struggle isn't its length, it's the fact that a regional wide transportation system was never built to funnel people into it.
QuoteA Bay & Ocean stop seems like a great first step, with a commitment plan in place to expand to the sports complex. It would be great for bringing more people downtown during any games or concerts, while helping east-downtown businesses along the way.
None of this matters if the solution to extending reliable transit into areas outside of downtown isn't implemented first. Thus, we have to look at how the Skyway fits and operates with the existing and future overall multimodal plan for our area if we want the best and most cost effective expansion path.
Quote from: dougskiles on April 23, 2013, 02:43:16 PM
Quote from: civil42806 on April 23, 2013, 11:25:33 AM
There will be a huge push back in this day and age to attempt to extend the riderless express. Sorry but thats what most people think of it. Yes I know roads cost a lot more than this, but people in masses use the roads. extension of the skyway is a dead issue.
What if the extension was funded by new development that comes as a result through tax increment financing? Would the general public still oppose it? Would it matter if they did?
No. You'd also cut back on opposition if such an extension was incrementally phased in with or after other transit network improvements such as revamping the bus network and adding a streetcar. Sometimes we focus too much on the actual Skyway technology itself without realizing its ultimate dependency on the ability to enhance multimodal connectivity from other modes to funnel riders into it. For example, the connectivity of Tri-Rail and Metrorail in Miami are the primary reasons why the Skyway's peer, the Metromover, averages nearly 30k riders a day. Most of those trips are originating from other modes penetrating neighborhoods and destinations far outside of that city's downtown and the Metromover's footprint.
Quote from: Tacachale on April 23, 2013, 09:52:48 AM
As for Bay Street, while I don't think the sports complex should be the first expansion, there's certainly something to the idea that people won't want to switch modes every few miles or blocks. And I've always thought that access to the sports complex should be crucial to our downtown mass transit.
Very true. However, without looking at and planning how things should efficiently move at a regional wide scale, it's hard to say at this point who will be switching modes and exactly where those transfers will be required, when talking specifically about the Skyway. Nevertheless, at the end of the day, even in DC, NYC, Chicago, etc. you have thousands efficiently transferring between various modes as a part of their daily routine commutes.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4d/Harbor_Freeway_Metro_Green_%26_Silver_Lines_Station-_Picture_9.JPG/220px-Harbor_Freeway_Metro_Green_%26_Silver_Lines_Station-_Picture_9.JPG)
Quote from: jcjohnpaint on April 23, 2013, 01:55:49 PM
Kind of funny, but a few years ago, I took the Blue to the Silver BRT when attempting to go downtown. I waited an hour under some overpass pile. I was coughing from all the fumes, so I decided it wasn't coming. Took the train the rest of the route changing in Watts. Seems like the BRT lines run at stations in and around DT, but most of the other ones just act like any other bus.
Lol, I waited around 15 minutes or so and yes, I was coughing from all the fumes as well.
That's one of the things that don't come across easy when looking at the slick presentations at public hearings. Once on the bus, the ride wasn't that bad. However, I was on it during the middle of the day, so I'm not personally sure how enjoyable the ride is at rush hour.
Heading back to the airport, the LRT line out of DT was down, so I had to wait for the Silver Line. I waited about 30 minutes for that bus but it was on a Saturday.
Quote from: Cheshire Cat on April 23, 2013, 02:00:44 PMThis of course will be the sentiment of some, but perhaps we have finally reached that long sought doorway that will take us in new directions with open minds. While other travel modes would definitely cost less, I would still like to see the no frills stop and yes, one into Brooklyn. Consider this, we live in a town that has a struggling football team floating a 50 million dollar scoreboard. The one the stadium currently has works just fine, but they want to take the next step up regardless and the mayor has already come out in support of the idea as well as some on council.
$50 million was the exact cost estimate for a streetcar starter system connecting downtown and the intersection of Park & King. $36 million was the estimated cost between Bay & Newnan and Five Points. An additional $14 million was estimated for a short extension down Oak Street (the original streetcar route) to the intersection of Park & King Streets. The mobility fee we won't collect is what is already set up to fund the capital costs 100%. That doesn't include potential opportunities to match funding at the state or federal level with this local revenue source that doesn't require a raise in taxes. Unfortunately, we prefer 7-Elevens, Waffle Houses and Family Dollars now, over the billions in sustainable economic development and ad valorem tax revenue gains that come with projects such as this. Enjoy the scoreboard!
Can we ride on a scoreboard? Aaaarrrrggghhh. Seriously, if this city considers such extravagances as this scoreboard and that over priced, over sized courthouse built to last for a lousy 50 years a worthwhile investment and can't see how valuable a streetcar system would be is very hard to stomach. Why do some remain blind to the enhanced ease of transportation but also to the fact that people will come to the core just to ride it and that's the gosh honest truth? I believe Bob did a piece some time back that showed the economic driver a streetcar system can be. Bob where is that piece about the tourism impact of trolleys and streetcars?
I believe it may be time to make the JTA and members of council aware of the fact, yet again that this is overdue and their decision on the mobility fee is making it more and more difficult to make some very positive changes in our city. JTA is supposed to have new leadership and fresh views perhaps we can see a fresh start for streetcars and a skyway extension.
Nothing against the Jags here just making cost comparisons is all.
QuoteI believe Bob did a piece some time back that showed the economic driver a streetcar system can be. Bob where is that piece about the tourism impact of trolleys and streetcars?
(http://img.geocaching.com/cache/large/7f1b5d09-210d-43a5-9cc7-56aab90ec5b8.jpg)
I'd argue that the permanent development impact is the primary reason to invest in such a system today. In the past decade, cities from Portland and Denver to Tampa, Salt Lake City and Charlotte have seen billions in market rate urban infill pop up around new streetcar and LRT lines. They have become a critical component of a vibrant core environment that appeals to the millennial generation. Both Charlotte and Tampa have seen over $2 billion in the form of new infill multifamily, retail and mixed use private sector projects pop up around their various stations. Several other cities are following suit instead of implementing gimmicks such as impact fee moratoriums. Some of the latest include Detroit, Fort Lauderdale, Cincinnati and Milwaukee. Here's a brief look at what Milwaukee is estimating from investing in their initial two-mile line:
QuoteThe Streetcar project is a critical element in Milwaukee's efforts to promote economic development downtown and along the route. In fact, fostering economic development is one of the primary goals of the project established at the onset of the Alternatives Analysis. The City identified vacant and underutilized parcels in the study area and evaluated alternatives alignments based on, among other factors, their proximity to these parcels under the recognition that fixed guideway transit service will promote transit-oriented development and/or more dense development.
Economic development potential within 1/4-mile buffer of the initial route and extensions over the next 20 years could generate approximately:
• 9,000 new housing units (63% increase)
• 13,500 new residents (55% increase)
• 1,000,000 square feet of new occupied retail space (31% increase)
• 4,000,000 SF of new occupied office space (28% increase)
• 20,500 new jobs (23% increase)
• $3.35 billion in new tax base
http://www.milwaukeeconnector.com/economic_development.htmlLocally, a major economic benefit for something stretching between DT and Riverside (or any other neighborhood) is you create market rate opportunity for investment in distressed and forgotten neighborhoods between the two destinations...like Brooklyn and LaVilla. When you start looking at the opportunities out there, something as simple as tying downtown with the airport has the potential to fuel redevelopment and revitalization throughout the Northside via the already city-owned abandoned S-Line corridor. Why we haven't moved as quick as the rest of the globe on this is one of the most puzzling things I've come across since moving to Jax in 2003.
That's the one! Thanks Ennis. I hope everyone will take the time to read it. Good stuff!
Very interesting conversation on this today, I've been tied up with actual calls and talks with Bombardier (Monorail manufacturer), another streetcar proposal and two new stories, but I can't sit forever and let this opportunity go.
STREETCAR? Absolutely the line to Park and King should be a civic priority, but again, I'd keep it off of Bay, Bay Street is absolutely ripe for the Skyway. As Lake has pointed out the logical spot for the Streetcar after crossing downtown on Water Street is the jog on Beaver to Palmetto then straight north along the old S line to Springfield. This could be done for a ridiculously low price as the grade and right-of-way already exist.
Skyway push-back? Not nearly as much as you might think. In doing many walk up interviews I have not met a single person who hasn't come up with some notion that it "Really should go to the Beach, Airport or Orange Park... none of which it is really designed to do, but lets face the facts, it is not doing even what it WAS designed to do.
I agree that the Eastside should be a priority along with modest expansion to San Marco and Brooklyn for the Skyway. Looking at any aerial of our city leads one to a graphic demonstration of how lop-sided our little fixed transit system is. Let's be honest here, it is NOT a downtown distributer/collector, it IS a half of a downtown distributer/collector and it only makes sense that at the least these expansions should take place. I'll roll the proposal for the whole ball of wax including a short spurt onto the FSCJ Hogan Street area in order to provide a safe crossing for many transit riders over the race track of State Street. As for Ocean Street? A minimal eastward expansion should reach Newnan for the simple reason that this is where streetcar will cross under the Skyway.
Now for the stadium? I did an estimate that with just the venues at the Sports Complex we'd double the ridership. But going beyond Newnan should be thrown out as bait for some big fish in The Shipyards area. We also ought to drop the "Stadium Extension," moniker and refer it to the Eastside Extension. Reason? Everyone tends to forget that one of the most complete, surviving, transit dependent, neighborhoods in the city exists just over the Arlington Expressway from a potential Ball Park stop. We'd be fools not to include this in our plans.
San Marco... THE REAL SAN MARCO, is paramount to the success of our commuter rail line to St. Augustine, (I'll board at the WGV-Palencia stop thank you!). Consider the fact that getting over the FEC RY will be one of the greatest reliefs to cause the explosion of new growth in the San Marco/Hendrix Restaurant District. Downtown workers would FINALLY have a dependable way to access this area without getting stuck by a 100 car transfer freight train. Further, taking this to the west side of the FEC RY at Atlantic offers the unique opportunity for a ground level station with across-the-platform transfers from Commuter Rail to Skyway or Bus. This equates to the Atlantic stop being FAR MORE then just a San Marco destination. It becomes the de facto stop for everything from San Marco to King Street in St. Augustine.
Lastly, Brooklyn... Just wait and see an idea we'll be tossing out shortly. Brooklyn is the no-brainer in all of this.
^YES! Did you hear me? Yes! :)
Quote from: thelakelander on April 23, 2013, 04:16:05 PM
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4d/Harbor_Freeway_Metro_Green_%26_Silver_Lines_Station-_Picture_9.JPG/220px-Harbor_Freeway_Metro_Green_%26_Silver_Lines_Station-_Picture_9.JPG)
Quote from: jcjohnpaint on April 23, 2013, 01:55:49 PM
Kind of funny, but a few years ago, I took the Blue to the Silver BRT when attempting to go downtown. I waited an hour under some overpass pile. I was coughing from all the fumes, so I decided it wasn't coming. Took the train the rest of the route changing in Watts. Seems like the BRT lines run at stations in and around DT, but most of the other ones just act like any other bus.
Lol, I waited around 15 minutes or so and yes, I was coughing from all the fumes as well.
That's one of the things that don't come across easy when looking at the slick presentations at public hearings. Once on the bus, the ride wasn't that bad. However, I was on it during the middle of the day, so I'm not personally sure how enjoyable the ride is at rush hour.
Heading back to the airport, the LRT line out of DT was down, so I had to wait for the Silver Line. I waited about 30 minutes for that bus but it was on a Saturday.
That would be it. I was there around 2 in the morning. Looks a little nicer in the day \
Quote from: Cheshire Cat on April 23, 2013, 06:38:16 PM
^YES! Did you hear me? Yes! :)
LOL! One more consideration to the San Marco/Atlantic, Skyway/Rail/Bus station. The Hospital District on the Southbank holds about 11,000 employees (yeah, I actually checked with each company) west of the FREEway, not to mention the myriad employees that work east of the Acosta Expressway. EVERY SINGE COMMUTER FROM SOUTH OF ATLANTIC, ON THE RAIL, THAT WORKS DOWNTOWN, OR THE SOUTHBANK, WILL DETRAIN IN SAN MARCO! The Skyway or BRT will do the rest. Employees destined to the northside, or westside will use the JACKSONVILLE TERMINAL STATION (as God intended).
Quote from: Ocklawaha on April 23, 2013, 07:20:15 PM
Quote from: Cheshire Cat on April 23, 2013, 06:38:16 PM
^YES! Did you hear me? Yes! :)
LOL! One more consideration to the San Marco/Atlantic, Skyway/Rail/Bus station. The Hospital District on the Southbank holds about 11,000 employees (yeah, I actually checked with each company) west of the FREEway, not to mention the myriad employees that work east of the Acosta Expressway. EVERY SINGE COMMUTER FROM SOUTH OF ATLANTIC, ON THE RAIL, THAT WORKS DOWNTOWN, OR THE SOUTHBANK, WILL DETRAIN IN SAN MARCO! The Skyway or BRT will do the rest. Employees destined to the northside, or westside will use the JACKSONVILLE TERMINAL STATION (as God intended).
8) So obvious...wish it wouldn't take decades to come to fruition.
Quote from: Cheshire Cat on April 22, 2013, 06:30:59 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on April 22, 2013, 06:07:21 PM
The cost of the streetcar line connecting downtown to Riverside is supposed to be funded 100% by the mobility fee. Unfortunately, when council refuses to collect a fee for new development, projects like this continue to get pushed into the distant future.
Reading this and realizing how true it is makes me just plain angry at the leadership that allows this to continue in order to preserve political favor and standing with certain entities in this city over what is good for the entire community. It's flat wrong no matter how cleverly it is spun to appear otherwise.
Is there a way the citizens of Jacksonville can sue city council in Federal court to overturn their asinine mobility fee moratorium? After exposing the facts, the Feds would have to do something, right?
I would think that the city would have had to break the law. I'm not sure any law was actually broken.
Quote from: urbaknight on April 24, 2013, 04:04:22 PM
Is there a way the citizens of Jacksonville can sue city council in Federal court to overturn their asinine mobility fee moratorium? After exposing the facts, the Feds would have to do something, right?
good luck with that...no federal law was broken.
and as for state law, the only thing it says is local governments are responsible for adequately funding public facilities....they can pass that cost on to new development (if rationally connected to its impacts) if they so choose.
I'm not a fan of the Feds, but when it comes to Florida and its state and local governments, I'll side with the Feds every time. Hey let's petition the Fed to take over Florida. And jail our current leadership.
As far as federal laws being broken, the city is in constant violation of ADA laws.
The only way would be to have another entity or council member offer another new bill to repeal this one.
Quote from: Cheshire Cat on April 24, 2013, 04:59:20 PM
The only way would be to have another entity or council member offer another new bill to repeal this one.
Someone on council can do that?! Awsome!
Yes, but finding one willing may be a chore unless some very good points can be revisited in a way that gets public attention, like this bill impinging on funds to grow transportation which will again become a focal point to moving Jacksonville forward. Perhaps this could happen six month's to a year down the road with a new bill to take effect prior to the 18 month cut off on this one, just to get ahead of any kind of political plays like we saw this time around.