This is interesting. Apparently there is consideration being given to a 400k, perhaps 500k park for the small area in front of the Chamber. The area is considered a city park, who knew? Take a look at the plans featured in the link below. Nothing in them screams public park, lots of flagpoles though.
http://www.news4jax.com/news/-400K-to-be-spent-on-tiny-downtown-park/-/475880/19208350/-/y1ppehz
At a time when the government is cutting services, the Jacksonville City Council is being asked to spend $400,000 on a very tiny park.
The money is coming from the state, and its target is a small strip of land in front of the Chamber of Commerce building at the base of the Main Street Bridge in downtown Jacksonville.
The area is considered a public park, which comes as a surprise to many on the council.
The building itself is currently undergoing a $3 million renovation, but it's being funded privately.
Meanwhile, the park is 168 feet long and 48 feet wide. It's not much bigger than a basketball court, and it's slated to become downtown's new front door.
The plan is to spend more than $400,000 to renovate the property, which is owned by the city. It's a park nobody really knew about, and it's taking councilman John Crescimbeni by surprise.Jax Chamber aerial
"If it's the property I am thinking of, to spend a half-million dollars on landscaping improvement, I can't imagine what we would spend that on for as small as what I have pictured in my mind.
More detail. I can see how the cost is $480,000 for the work mentioned and size of the property.
http://jacksonville.com/opinion/blog/403455/timothy-gibbons/2013-03-06/jacksonville-council-considers-half-million-dollars
Ennis, What do you think of the design and the idea that this will be the new doorway to downtown which is what it is being called?
Woo, another so-called "park" to add to our enormous list of tiny mediocre city parks that no one uses. Yee haw!
Half a million could do a lot of improvements in sidewalks & pedestrian/bike infrastructure, but who needs that??
Quote from: Cheshire Cat on March 06, 2013, 09:30:38 PM
Ennis, What do you think of the design and the idea that this will be the new doorway to downtown which is what it is being called?
(http://jacksonville.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/lead_photo_wide/10849693.jpg)
(https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/398120_331115870242098_1320595649_n.jpg)
To be honest, compared to what it was (a surface parking lot with no landscaping), it looks like an improvement. However, I'm not sure of the full history of how it is supposed to be funded.
the thread on this project from last year: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,14156.0.html
Quote from: peestandingup on March 06, 2013, 09:42:35 PM
Woo, another so-called "park" to add to our enormous list of tiny mediocre city parks that no one uses. Yee haw!
pocket parks can be a great thing in downtown environments
Given the location being boxed in by bridge ramps, I doubt it gets much use outside of those at the chamber. However, them upgrading their property is a visual boost for downtown when arriving on Ocean Street. I typically avoid some areas of downtown when bringing visitors into the core because of how dead they are.
Speaking of that, I hosted my family reunion on the Southbank back in 2010. A few family members hadn't been to Jax in a while and I assume they remembered the area from the 1970s and 80s. After saying hi, the common wording coming out of their mouths were, "what the hell has happened here? Where are the buildings and people?" I had to put city pride aside and tell them the real deal.
Quote from: tufsu1 on March 06, 2013, 11:02:43 PM
Quote from: peestandingup on March 06, 2013, 09:42:35 PM
Woo, another so-called "park" to add to our enormous list of tiny mediocre city parks that no one uses. Yee haw!
pocket parks can be a great thing in downtown environments
Berkman Plaza comes to mind. The fountain, flag poles of which one use to fly the COJ flag, and 10% of the River access for the Public from the marina.
Quote from: tufsu1 on March 06, 2013, 11:02:43 PM
Quote from: peestandingup on March 06, 2013, 09:42:35 PM
Woo, another so-called "park" to add to our enormous list of tiny mediocre city parks that no one uses. Yee haw!
pocket parks can be a great thing in downtown environments
Sure they can, but you don't need a thousand of them. Esp in a mostly dead environment with no main central park or public space that's being utilized. The one big park we do have downtown (Met Park) is a complete afterthought & underutilized. So scattering pocket parks among a half dead urban environment, one where being a pedestrian is such an unpleasant experience to begin with, isn't really the answer.
Work started on this about a week ago. Has the money been approved?
To me, it's really a "greened parking lot". The other alternative would have been them just pouring a new coat of asphalt on top of what was one of the most ugliest parking lots in downtown. Instead, they've found a way to keep spaces, add trees, grass and a water feature at their main entrance. The only real issue I see is if it should be done with public dollars or not.
I like it.
I fail to see how a landscaped, and lighted park in front of the Jacksonville Chamber of Commerce is a bad thing.
If this is the new 'gateway' , can we please get rid of the ugly 2 story metal parking garage that is behind the chamber? What a waste of space.
It may be an improvement, but a waste of money. $59.52 per sq ft
Would this cover both the improvements to the area in front of the building, or just the parking lot on Bay? If it's both I can easily see it costing that much. It would be nicer if they removed that ramp, but one thing at a time.
It appears to cover both, which is why the costs don't look so out of line to me.
QuoteThe $480,000 would be spent on landscaping, sidewalks, historic lighting, parking area paving and other improvements near the building on Independence Drive.
The funding includes $280,000 the state had planned to spend on converting the Ocean Street East ramp to a pedestrian connection from Independent Drive to Bay Street. FDOT appropriated another $200,000 directly for the work.
So none of the construction money would come from the city, Jax would just have to pay for design which, according to the drawings posted by Ennis, is already done? Whether it is a waste of money or not, its not our money. :P
Beyond that, what is the dilio with the Ocean Street East ramp ped connection? Would they have added ped facilities to the left northbound ramp? Then I guess there would be a crosswalk across the right lane, same as the southbound side? Why didn't this happen (because of the other ped connection added between Independent and Bay?)?
Last, the front of the Chamber property isn't bad (grass with trees and shrubs). It seems like the most expensive part of the project is the front with the flagpoles and water features added, which are replacing something that already looks nice (and would be welcoming if you just removed the retaining wall and gently sloped the yard). The east side parking lot changes would be great, in my opinion, and probably pretty reasonably-priced. The real problem with the property is the god-awful ugly building, however. At least update the sign (and put a HUGE mural on that big, ugly, windowless side of the building). Actually, the mural should be done anyway, surely that is a low cost change, and consistent with the mission of the Chamber.
I just don't see this getting much use. There is nothing to draw the Pedestrian that way. If Mad Men Marketing goes to pick up lunch from the Landing, then they could stop there on the way back, but that's about it. Parks should enhance the pedestrian experience and support surrounding businesses. If there are no pedestrians and there are no businesses to augment, then I don't see the point of spending so much for a park with no purpose.
All that said, if they aren't going to put any structure at the street to add vibrancy to Water Street, they might as well make the thing look decent.
Quote from: thelakelander on March 07, 2013, 09:34:16 AM
It appears to cover both, which is why the costs don't look so out of line to me.
Yeah, if that's the case, I don't see the problem, nor where Channel 4 get the idea that this is the size of a "basketball court".
I'd like to know the deal with the pedestrian connection though, and whether the Chamber will be coming to the city for the design funding or paying it themselves.
Quote from: Captain Zissou on March 07, 2013, 09:52:03 AM
I just don't see this getting much use. There is nothing to draw the Pedestrian that way. If Mad Men Marketing goes to pick up lunch from the Landing, then they could stop there on the way back, but that's about it. Parks should enhance the pedestrian experience and support surrounding businesses. If there are no pedestrians and there are no businesses to augment, then I don't see the point of spending so much for a park with no purpose.
All that said, if they aren't going to put any structure at the street to add vibrancy to Water Street, they might as well make the thing look decent.
I have used that "park" a few times... as a short cut between Bay street bars and the Landing...
I think the first surprise for me was that the land in front of the chamber is and apparently has been a city park. lol Who knew really? The second surprise was that given the fact that it was supposedly a park, why would a plan that is purely concrete and metal poles be considered an upgrade to the already horrible park? By that I mean most people consider a park something with green space, trees benches, planting etc.
Upon closer examination there is currently a 3 million improvement going on the the Chamber building (a city structure) but funded by private money. Don't know the breakdown on that. The outdoor space is a natural extension to completing that restoration I suppose. The land belongs to the city and the current deal as I understand it is that once the improvements are done, the chamber will maintain the "park".
The funding while not coming in it's entirety through city tax funds is still tax dollars paid by everyone in Florida. The question is in the mind of some whether or not using 400k on this particular project is the best use for it. Personally, I am not opposed to seeing the improvements, but do not care for the design one bit. All hard angles. It seems to me we are just putting more in the way of uninspired concrete surface into the downtown. Environmentally, the addition of more hard surface creates more heat and less ambiance. Where are the plantings? Of course the answer is likely that the Chamber wants as little expense in the way of upkeep as possible. So a park, no, in my view. The term park just made it qualify for the tax based funding from the state.
I would love to see a small area covered by trees or a very cool design element with some bench seating and some colorful plantings included for ambiance and color along with a water feature which not only would bring elemental balance but make the space a bit softer for visitors actually experiencing it.
It seems that the space has many of the features you mention. It's just spread across the entire site with parking integrated.
(http://jacksonville.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/lead_photo_wide/10849693.jpg)
I see what you are saying Ennis, but in my opinion the space lacks color,character and anything in the way of style. This is something you would see in "any town" U.S.A. Why do we always aim for "any town?" lol It really says little that is impressive or creative about Jacksonville or our people. It's just blah in my view. Some colorful blooming plants would help and a creative covered seating space outside the entrance would give more character. It also seems a likely location for a fantastic piece of outside art. It is uninspired, just like that hulk of a courthouse we have.
Shoot, many on this site could come up with something much better.
Quote from: Captain Zissou on March 07, 2013, 09:52:03 AM
I just don't see this getting much use. There is nothing to draw the Pedestrian that way.
well except that this is on the main route between the Bay Street nightlife area and the Landing
and the Ocean Street east ramp was redone a few years ago...it is now a pedestrian space with enhanced planting and lighting
Quote from: Cheshire Cat on March 07, 2013, 11:59:16 AM
Shoot, many on this site could come up with something much better.
folks who are on this site (Content Design Group) developed the concept
I'm sure the client (Chamber) had some say in the park design/amenities.
Quote from: stephendare on March 07, 2013, 01:27:52 PM
Quote from: tufsu1 on March 07, 2013, 01:23:54 PM
Quote from: Cheshire Cat on March 07, 2013, 11:59:16 AM
Shoot, many on this site could come up with something much better.
folks who are on this site developed the concept
lol. and they are very nice guys---who I know for a fact appreciate public comment and response---- but they still could have come up with something better, technically there is always room for improvement.
For example, designing the park for active programming --like an outdoor workout and stretching area with covered spaces for runners and bikers in the rain, or a basketball court, or a climbing wall or a public croquet green, or a rollerblading circle with seats around it....
This is the direction that most of the big cities are going with small public spaces, it makes New York a wonderful wonderful place to live in fact.
Exactly! This space could be made much more attractive and needs to be softened. Come on "Content Design Group", you can do much better than this uninspired "anywhere" USA design. A space designed with a use a Stephen suggested makes much more sense and would create activity which translates to life in the core. Less angles, more creativity and natural color via plantings please. :)
I am positive the Chamber had plenty of input on this as well and to them I say, you need to do better in presenting Jacksonville in a welcoming creative light. A sizable piece of outside art would be a great addition. Interactive art even better. Look, unless the public speaks up and says "run of the mill design" isn't enough, we will continue to get run of the mill design. I in no way mean to disrespect what I am sure are the fine folk of CDG. I only challenge them to do better. I know you can.
I have no problems with the design. It's essentially the greening of an asphalt parking lot. The major question I can see is should public dollars be used? Hemming is the public space I'm really worried about.
I respect that Ennis, I just don't agree. We need more than the greening of an asphalt parking lot as an introduction to downtown. :)
Quote from: Cheshire Cat on March 07, 2013, 01:35:31 PM
Quote from: stephendare on March 07, 2013, 01:27:52 PM
Quote from: tufsu1 on March 07, 2013, 01:23:54 PM
Quote from: Cheshire Cat on March 07, 2013, 11:59:16 AM
Shoot, many on this site could come up with something much better.
folks who are on this site developed the concept
lol. and they are very nice guys---who I know for a fact appreciate public comment and response---- but they still could have come up with something better, technically there is always room for improvement.
For example, designing the park for active programming --like an outdoor workout and stretching area with covered spaces for runners and bikers in the rain, or a basketball court, or a climbing wall or a public croquet green, or a rollerblading circle with seats around it....
This is the direction that most of the big cities are going with small public spaces, it makes New York a wonderful wonderful place to live in fact.
Exactly! This space could be made much more attractive and needs to be softened. Come on "Content Design Group", you can do much better than his uninspired anywhere USA design. A space designed with a use a Stephen suggested makes much more sense and would create activity which translates to life in the core. Less angles, more creativity and natural color via plantings please. :)
I am positive the Chamber had plenty of input on this as well and to them I say, you need to do better in presenting Jacksonville in a welcoming creative light. A sizable piece of outside art would be a great addition. Interactive art even better. Look, unless the public speaks up and says "run of the mill design" isn't enough, we will continue to get run of the mill design. I in no way mean to disrespect what I am sure are the fine folk of CDG. I only challenge them to do better. I know you can.
Content Design Group's scope of work includes the interior design, the entry canopy, and building signage. All urban planning, landscape, and site design was done by another group.
I think it looks ok, I just don't want to pay for it. I read earlier on this thread that it wasn't on out tab anyway.
Why not interface with the Arts Community of Jacksonville in the CORK? Lets get creative in downtown.
So who did the park design? CDG, glad to know the design isn't yours. :)
Urbanknight, this project is still using tax dollars paid in by people in Florida, so in some ways it is still on our tab. I have no problem with it since we are talking Chamber who in fact represent our city. I just know we can do a more attractive and innovative space and feel there is probably time left to reach out to the creative elements of our city for input. ;)
Quote from: Cheshire Cat on March 07, 2013, 01:41:38 PM
I respect that Ennis, I just don't agree. We need more than the greening of an asphalt parking lot as an introduction to downtown. :)
I guess my stance is from this type of viewpoint. Out of all the things currently needed to create a vibrant downtown, this ranks pretty low on the priority list, given the location. There's virtually no foot traffic here and the bridge ramps pretty much kill off connectivity to adjacent properties. You could literally put Disney inside this space and the economic spinoff would be limited due to the immediate context. I'd probably argue that anything someone can suggest to improve this space, other than laying sod and a few trees, their suggestion would be better off in other spaces throughout downtown.
If there is a movement to stir up various groups to put time and energy into improving a space, let's address real public spaces that people actually use downtown and that have the ability to stimulate private sector economic development on properties surrounding them. Off the top of my head, Hemming, the new Courthouse Plaza, the riverwalks, the Shipyards, Metro Park, the parks along Hogans Creek, etc. all should be a higher priority.
lol !
I have been told the designer is "Marquis Halback in St Augustine." I would say thank you to that group for taking the time to do this gratis for Jacksonville. So thank you! I have to follow that remark up with a question as to why no one in Jacksonville could do the same? It's beginning to look like some folks in decision making rolls were shopping around for a friend or business associate to do a "freebee!" Free is nice, but come on Jacksonville Chamber you are reps for "JACKSONVILLE" not another city. Look to our citizens and creative personalities please.
I agree Ennis. The courthouse issue to me is much more important. By the way anyone else noticing all the goat trails forming where sidewalks should be at the courthouse? what a disaster.
I hear you Ennis and you know I "very much" appreciate you expertise in these matters. My view is that we in Jacksonville must view every action in downtown as important to our future. The planner in you will clearly weigh this out and categorize it's importance in one fashion, while others of us may see the opportunity to do something a bit more unique and special in that space. If it is worth investing in, it is worth making it a creative space. This design puts me in mind of the mess in front of the Main Library. An ugly, concrete weed patch that cost us around 700K if memory serves me. We need to ask more of our city and creative class. :)
Quote from: fsujax on March 07, 2013, 02:01:37 PM
I agree Ennis. The courthouse issue to me is much more important. By the way anyone else noticing all the goat trails forming where sidewalks should be at the courthouse? what a disaster.
Goat trails? I haven't walked it in a few months. I'm sure there has to be a trail forming between the front door and the food trucks at Jefferson and Adams, along with the stretches of Broad and Pearl that don't have sidewalks.
fsujax, what courthouse issue in particular would be impacted by focusing on a better space in front of the chamber? Not a challenge, just a question.
Are you suggesting the money for this "park" project go to the courthouse?
Quote from: Cheshire Cat on March 07, 2013, 02:04:54 PM
I hear you Ennis and you know I "very much" appreciate you expertise in these matters. My view is that we in Jacksonville must view every action in downtown as important to our future. The planner in you will clearly weigh this out and categorize it's importance in one fashion, while others of us may see the opportunity to do something a bit more unique and special in that space. If it is worth investing in, it is worth making it a creative space. This design puts me in mind of the mess in front of the Main Library. An ugly, concrete weed patch that cost us around 700K if memory serves me. We need to ask more of our city and creative class. :)
That's a small space that should have never been built. If I recall, the money had to spent on a public space adjacent to an FDOT road. To be honest, I probably would have split it up to install new playscapes at as many parks across the city on FDOT roads as possible. As for the Main Street space, it should have been left a surface parking lot and RFP'd for infill development.
Quote from: Cheshire Cat on March 07, 2013, 02:06:50 PM
fsujax, what courthouse issue in particular would be impacted by focusing on a better space in front of the chamber? Not a challenge, just a question.
Are you suggesting the money for this "park" project go to the courthouse?
Time and effort would be my immediate answer. In a few months, the way things are going, Hemming may lose most of its trees and benches and the courthouse space will still be bad, despite probably getting more foot traffic than Hemming now. As for money, if public cash is going to the chamber space, I'd be in favor of that cash being moved to something else even if it means they have to lose their water feature.
Quote from: thelakelander on March 07, 2013, 02:13:16 PM
Quote from: Cheshire Cat on March 07, 2013, 02:06:50 PM
fsujax, what courthouse issue in particular would be impacted by focusing on a better space in front of the chamber? Not a challenge, just a question.
Are you suggesting the money for this "park" project go to the courthouse?
Time and effort would be my immediate answer. In a few months, the way things are going, Hemming may lose most of its trees and benches and the courthouse space will still be bad, despite probably getting more foot traffic than Hemming now. As for money, if public cash is going to the chamber space, I'd be in favor of that cash being moved to something else even if it means they have to lose their water feature.
I cannot fault your logic here Ennis but would suppose the folks in the Chamber would fight to keep the funding for the space in front of their building. In my view, a creative and functional space is the way to go because I am pretty sure the money will be spent. I really can't get over the fact that a Jacksonville entity is not designing a space that is being promoted as a doorway to downtown. Do we value our own people and skills so little?
Quote from: thelakelander on March 07, 2013, 02:09:55 PM
Quote from: Cheshire Cat on March 07, 2013, 02:04:54 PM
I hear you Ennis and you know I "very much" appreciate you expertise in these matters. My view is that we in Jacksonville must view every action in downtown as important to our future. The planner in you will clearly weigh this out and categorize it's importance in one fashion, while others of us may see the opportunity to do something a bit more unique and special in that space. If it is worth investing in, it is worth making it a creative space. This design puts me in mind of the mess in front of the Main Library. An ugly, concrete weed patch that cost us around 700K if memory serves me. We need to ask more of our city and creative class. :)
That's a small space that should have never been built. If I recall, the money had to spent on a public space adjacent to an FDOT road. To be honest, I probably would have split it up to install new playscapes at as many parks across the city on FDOT roads as possible. As for the Main Street space, it should have been left a surface parking lot and RFP'd for infill development.
Agreed. How would a play space have worked? Just curious as to how you see that and if it could still be done at some point.
Quote from: Cheshire Cat on March 07, 2013, 02:20:21 PM
I really can't get over the fact that a Jacksonville entity is not designing a space that is being promoted as a doorway to downtown. Do we value our own people and skills so little?
Part of my issue with this space is I understand they are promoting it as a doorway but really isn't. You can't access that space directly or even see it from Main Street without turning left on Bay, left on Laura and then another left on Independent. We could put a ferris wheel in there and it would still be a bad space because of the hole it's in. From the aerial rendering, it doesn't appear to be that bad to me. It may very we'll have amenities in it that will be seldom used when completed. Any idea on what was the original proposed scope of work for the FDOT money potentially involved?
Quote from: Cheshire Cat on March 07, 2013, 02:21:27 PMAgreed. How would a play space have worked? Just curious as to how you see that and if it could still be done at some point.
Nothing elaborate. Basically upgrading playground equipment and amenities within existing parks, such as this space in downtown Orlando:
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/1138053952_uwBUh-M.jpg)
Quote from: thelakelander on March 07, 2013, 02:33:22 PM
Quote from: Cheshire Cat on March 07, 2013, 02:20:21 PM
I really can't get over the fact that a Jacksonville entity is not designing a space that is being promoted as a doorway to downtown. Do we value our own people and skills so little?
Part of my issue with this space is I understand they are promoting it as a doorway but really isn't. You can't access that space directly or even see it from Main Street without turning left on Bay, left on Laura and then another left on Independent. We could put a ferris wheel in there and it would still be a bad space because of the hole it's in. From the aerial rendering, it doesn't appear to be that bad to me. It may very we'll have amenities in it that will be seldom used when completed. Any idea on what was the original proposed scope of work for the FDOT money potentially involved?
Quote from: Cheshire Cat on March 07, 2013, 02:21:27 PMAgreed. How would a play space have worked? Just curious as to how you see that and if it could still be done at some point.
Nothing elaborate. Basically upgrading playground equipment and amenities within existing parks, such as this space in downtown Orlando:
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/1138053952_uwBUh-M.jpg)
To your first point Ennis, I must say I agree and imagine that promoting this as a "doorway" is actually meant to sell the concept to powers in city hall in order to fund it. As far as who would use an interactive space I think it is important not to overlook the fact that people outside of Jacksonville do come to the Chamber to get information and learn more about our city. I can't help but think that a more attractive and interactive space would help to impress new comers as well as investors visiting Jacksonville. It's about time that all of our efforts downtown say, this city can think and act out of the box. "I want out of the box!" ;) We can do better than the design currently being offered and I would love the design to be a creative statement made by someone in Jacksonville.
To the second point "I LOVE IT"! This is what we should see happening in Jacksonville!
Quote from: Cheshire Cat on March 07, 2013, 02:47:54 PM
As far as who would use an interactive space I think it is important not to overlook the fact that people outside of Jacksonville do come to the Chamber to get information and learn more about our city. I can't help but think that a more attractive and interactive space would help to impress new comers as well as investors visiting Jacksonville. It's about time that all of our efforts downtown say, this city can think and act out of the box. "I want out of the box!" ;) We can do better than the design currently being offered and I would love the design to be a creative statement made by someone in Jacksonville.
I honestly think, by the time a visitor figures out how to get to the front door of the chamber, the downtown image has already been shattered. To get there, you pass blocks and blocks of parking garages, limited street retail, essentially no dining and the backside of the Landing to then pull up to a suburban office building. Oh, and hopefully you have GPS because there's no street signage to direct you, while spinning around our maze of uncoordinated one-way streets. The best way to enhance the sense of arrival is to have a street (or a few blocks) filled with pedestrian scale activity. Anything sort of that is a band aid that helps us pat ourselves on the back but still leaves the average visitor unimpressed.
Lake, they are along Broad St mostly, where no sidewalk exist. I call them goat trails, worn paths in the grass. Others call them something else. Diane, I think Lake summed it up for me. I wouldnt mind seeing the 400k spent on sprucing up the courthouse yard and making it pedestrian friendly.
Video and correct link:
http://www.news4jax.com/news/-400K-to-be-spent-on-tiny-downtown-park/-/475880/19208350/-/y1ppehz/-/index.html
http://www.kaltura.com/index.php/kwidget/wid/_557781/uiconf_id/12283731/entry_id/0_brbj14wm
Some journalistic excellence right there.
One positive that I am now noticing is this will give the front door an actual front entrance to the street. Not sure why that was missing in the first place.
QuoteI really can't get over the fact that a Jacksonville entity is not designing a space that is being promoted as a doorway to downtown. Do we value our own people and skills so little?
The Chamber doesn't care about a doorway to downtown. If they did, they would offer to move and have that entire parcel turned to something cool like in the pics lake posted. They just want to have a sweet landscaping job done for their new building without really paying for it. That's what it comes down to. And in the end that is what will happen.
FSU, I see your point and would agree, however I do believe the funds when spent will go to the Chamber park. Considering that I think we need a better plan.
When I say think out of the box, I am saying that with each effort to improve any area downtown, we should perhaps give some degree of attention to what we are trying to say about downtown and Jacksonville. Now you can all correct me if I am wrong (I'm sure you will, lol) but what is the Chamber trying to say about our city? For instance, there is a great deal of focus on international interest and promoting Jacksonville as a shipping center. So how can we say that in the space in front of the Chamber? Consider what I was saying about creative design. If we want to say something about the city and our goals in this regard, why not design a space with elements that suggest that. (I am going to insert a link here and perhaps one of you would be kind enough to post the picture http://sh-blog.com/2013/02/12/building-study-shipping-containers/). For instance, using this link take a look at what can be done with large scale shipping containers and how a design element including covered seating areas with brightly colored transformed containers could not only provide seating, but also become an artistic element that also says shipping. Of course anything we did would have to have more of an open element to it. Add to this lighting for the evening hours that would showcase these areas and then incorporate the water feature with the shipping containers in some way. Perhaps the port could assist with some funding. This is just fodder for thought mind you. I am trying to illustrate that a more creative bent to what we do downtown, even in increments can help to build our story. :)
Cline, I agree with your take on the "doorway" and paid for landscaping. Clearly that is what this is about, but taking that into consideration along with the expectation that the funding will be spent, why not make it something more creative and meaningful as a message about downtown?
Quote from: tufsu1 on March 06, 2013, 11:02:43 PM
Quote from: peestandingup on March 06, 2013, 09:42:35 PM
Woo, another so-called "park" to add to our enormous list of tiny mediocre city parks that no one uses. Yee haw!
pocket parks can be a great thing in downtown environments
So can streetlights, and mowed medians.
Pinky, you must have missed the big news a couple of days back. The mayor found some "magic money", unspent in the budget and he is using that to turn on the streetlights and mow the medians. No word yet as to which city piggy bank held the magic funds. Mayor apparently calls it "found" money. ;)
Here you go:
http://jacksonville.com/opinion/blog/403455/timothy-gibbons/2013-03-04/jacksonville-mayor-alvin-brown-proposes-using-found
Quote from: Cheshire Cat on March 07, 2013, 08:02:04 PM
Pinky, you must have missed the big news a couple of days back. The mayor found some "magic money", unspent in the budget and he is using that to turn on the streetlights and mow the medians. No word yet as to which city piggy bank held the magic funds. Mayor apparently calls it "found" money. ;)
Here you go:
http://jacksonville.com/opinion/blog/403455/timothy-gibbons/2013-03-04/jacksonville-mayor-alvin-brown-proposes-using-found
Sofa cushions ... happens every time they vacuum.
Quote from: Cheshire Cat on March 07, 2013, 08:02:04 PM
Pinky, you must have missed the big news a couple of days back. The mayor found some "magic money", unspent in the budget and he is using that to turn on the streetlights and mow the medians. No word yet as to which city piggy bank held the magic funds. ;)
I did miss that. That's definitely good news, as those sort of things definitely influence a lot more people's opinion of Jacksonville than this tiny sliver of downtown ever would.
Which leads me to my next point, which has already been touched on by Lake- The parcel in question is hardly "the front door to Jax". I live barely a quarter mile from it, and have NEVER, not once, EVER passed it. I actually had to google map it to figure out exactly where is is! And this from a guy who walks and bikes the area several times a week.. It's not visible from any of the ramps, and is only passed by folks who proceed east through the traffic circle in front of the Landing, which is a pretty minuscule number of people.
Call me cynical, but this screams of yet another example of a few powerful people in this town using taxpayer money for projects which only serve themselves. If the Chamber wants some spiffy landscaping for the front of their building they should buck-up and pay for it themselves. I can't imagine the city turning down their offer to improve the "park".
Pinky, a lot of people are asking the same questions you are. That doesn't make you cynical, just a citizen who is paying attention and that is a good thing I do believe. You may not have read all the thread but the Chamber building is owned by the city as is the park land. The deal I believe is that state money (still tax money) will be used to do the park and the Chamber will maintain it. Others in this conversation have pointed out that these funds might be better spent elsewhere but it is my guess the Chamber will get the park improvements to go with improvements made to the building interior which were privately funded and cost about 3 million.
Come on. The chamber's putting millions into the renovations and they've found state money to clean up what's technically a public park, including a bunch of money from a cancelled project, so local money isnt needed. If it includes reworking that awful parking lot, the cost isn't so outrageous. Other than some possible opportunity cost and design gripes, I don't see the issue here.
Just checked the City GIS website, and it says the building, and the land it is on, and the parking lot on the east side of the block, are owned by the Jacksonville Chamber of Commerce. Don't know where the idea came from that the City owns the Chamber building. Or is the Property Appraiser wrong?
http://apps.coj.net/PAO_PropertySearch/Basic/Detail.aspx?RE=0744550000
Quote from: stephendare on March 07, 2013, 01:43:59 PM
lol.
Welcome the the "Under the Bus Tour" with your guide, TUFSU,.....The first throw is a little rough. ;)
guess you can give me some guidance ;)
Quote from: Pinky on March 07, 2013, 07:50:23 PM
Quote from: tufsu1 on March 06, 2013, 11:02:43 PM
Quote from: peestandingup on March 06, 2013, 09:42:35 PM
Woo, another so-called "park" to add to our enormous list of tiny mediocre city parks that no one uses. Yee haw!
pocket parks can be a great thing in downtown environments
So can streetlights, and mowed medians.
sure, but the state isn't paying for those
Quote from: Charles Hunter on March 07, 2013, 08:47:32 PM
Just checked the City GIS website, and it says the building, and the land it is on, and the parking lot on the east side of the block, are owned by the Jacksonville Chamber of Commerce. Don't know where the idea came from that the City owns the Chamber building. Or is the Property Appraiser wrong?
http://apps.coj.net/PAO_PropertySearch/Basic/Detail.aspx?RE=0744550000
WHOA! Hold up now, the building and land is owned by the Chamber? Media sources have all been reporting that the structure and park area is City owned, but the Property Appraisers say otherwise? I am stunned that media did not fact check before disseminating incorrect information. Wow! This info does put some new questions before the community with regard to this funding. First, is the expenditure of this money being promoted on the basis of a false fact, i.e. both the building and park are city owned. It appears only the park area is owned by the city. This revelation along with the sell that this building and park are the new "Entrance to Downtown" is quickly becoming a pretty packaging deal. If the Chamber wants the park improvements then ask for the funding on the merits of what the Chamber does for Jacksonville. Lord have mercy. These spin jobs get so tiresome. Charles I know you and if you say the building and parking lot is Chamber owned I believe it.
Taschachle, I am not opposed to improvements in front of the Chamber because the Chamber is there to promote Jacksonville. However I recognize the concerns of others with regards to how $480,000.00 in tax money may best be spent, like finishing off outside areas of the Courthouse (and that damn Courthouse is another issue). If private funds of 3 million were spent in the Chamber to improve it, I do think the outside should be finished off, leaving the mess out front is not the image we want in front of a building promoting Jacksonville. The rub and it is becoming a bigger one right now is the idea that some are going out of their way to secure these tax dollars in some ways based upon a spin job. I really don't like the fact that our City Council often believes this spin and makes decisions based upon it or based upon relationships with the entities applying for tax funds. That is a problem and one could also ask if the Chamber could raise the 3 million for the building why didn't they also raise the money for the park?
The thing is this. Our city leadership has been telling us we are broke. The blame has been placed upon JSO and JFRD pensions in a huge way. The city fired people saying we were broke and closed libraries. We have streetlights turned off and medians ordered to be mowed less. Then magically, the city has funds to give to downtown, and turn back on streetlights and mow. The public manipulations over our budget and available tax dollars is wearing real thin about now. The reality is that the people are being lied to and when falsities are exposed leadership want's to explain them away. This is not acceptable and it is also why the taxpayers are up in arms about all expenditures. The problem falls largely upon our city leadership and the office of the mayor and apparently, they can often not be believed or counted upon to make the right decisions. We can't tolerate that.
^Again, this isn't city money we're talking about in the case of the chamber. It doesn't seem likely that if we deny the Chamber park funding that we could just use it for the Courthouse space or any of that other stuff. It's state money; it seems more likely it would go toward floor buffing the capital building or a road widening in suburban Orlando than something useful to Downtown Jacksonville.
State dollars are still tax dollars Tacachale, and we all pay them. I don't think anyone is arguing to not use the state money but there is valid discussion going on as to how best to use that state money. :) Remember as well we are also being told by politician's that we are broke at the state level too.
Quote from: thelakelander on March 07, 2013, 02:06:04 PM
Goat trails? I haven't walked it in a few months. I'm sure there has to be a trail forming between the front door and the food trucks at Jefferson and Adams, along with the stretches of Broad and Pearl that don't have sidewalks.
What a perfect idea! We could have an official herd of downtown goats, to distinguish our city from the others. Nice out-of-the-box thinking! Remember the flock of chickens around that restaurant on the South bank?
Quote from: thelakelander on March 07, 2013, 01:57:42 PM
Quote from: Cheshire Cat on March 07, 2013, 01:41:38 PM
I respect that Ennis, I just don't agree. We need more than the greening of an asphalt parking lot as an introduction to downtown. :)
I guess my stance is from this type of viewpoint. Out of all the things currently needed to create a vibrant downtown, this ranks pretty low on the priority list, given the location. There's virtually no foot traffic here and the bridge ramps pretty much kill off connectivity to adjacent properties. You could literally put Disney inside this space and the economic spinoff would be limited due to the immediate context. I'd probably argue that anything someone can suggest to improve this space, other than laying sod and a few trees, their suggestion would be better off in other spaces throughout downtown.
If there is a movement to stir up various groups to put time and energy into improving a space, let's address real public spaces that people actually use downtown and that have the ability to stimulate private sector economic development on properties surrounding them. Off the top of my head, Hemming, the new Courthouse Plaza, the riverwalks, the Shipyards, Metro Park, the parks along Hogans Creek, etc. all should be a higher priority.
Shipyards III
Hey Bike guys. Right now there is an RFI! RFP! for 30 days on the entire SHIPYARDS property. What about a bike rack next to the floating dock that nobody can use. I'm serious. How about a bike rack next to the Mayor Brown kayak logo at Metropolitan Park Marina? I'm serious.
These two little tactical positive benefits will immediately create an organic mini cluster of infill entrepreneurial energy That will spark explosive connectivity in an active recreational activity that will add to a 24/7 Downtown Experience.
The RAM dock is only open when RAM is open. Not Good.
VISIT DOWNTOWN JACKSONVILLE on our St. Johns River our American Heritage River A FEDERAL Initiative in our newly created DIA zone.
Quote from: Noone on May 05, 2013, 08:31:42 AM
These two little tactical positive benefits will immediately create an organic mini cluster of infill entrepreneurial energy That will spark explosive connectivity in an active recreational activity that will add to a 24/7 Downtown Experience.
Damnit, Noone! You were one "synergize" away from me winning this round of Local Government Buzzword Bingo!
Quote from: Noone on May 05, 2013, 08:31:42 AM
Quote from: thelakelander on March 07, 2013, 01:57:42 PM
Quote from: Cheshire Cat on March 07, 2013, 01:41:38 PM
I respect that Ennis, I just don't agree. We need more than the greening of an asphalt parking lot as an introduction to downtown. :)
I guess my stance is from this type of viewpoint. Out of all the things currently needed to create a vibrant downtown, this ranks pretty low on the priority list, given the location. There's virtually no foot traffic here and the bridge ramps pretty much kill off connectivity to adjacent properties. You could literally put Disney inside this space and the economic spinoff would be limited due to the immediate context. I'd probably argue that anything someone can suggest to improve this space, other than laying sod and a few trees, their suggestion would be better off in other spaces throughout downtown.
If there is a movement to stir up various groups to put time and energy into improving a space, let's address real public spaces that people actually use downtown and that have the ability to stimulate private sector economic development on properties surrounding them. Off the top of my head, Hemming, the new Courthouse Plaza, the riverwalks, the Shipyards, Metro Park, the parks along Hogans Creek, etc. all should be a higher priority.
Shipyards III
Hey Bike guys. Right now there is an RFI! RFP! for 30 days on the entire SHIPYARDS property. What about a bike rack next to the floating dock that nobody can use. I'm serious. How about a bike rack next to the Mayor Brown kayak logo at Metropolitan Park Marina? I'm serious.
These two little tactical positive benefits will immediately create an organic mini cluster of infill entrepreneurial energy That will spark explosive connectivity in an active recreational activity that will add to a 24/7 Downtown Experience.
The RAM dock is only open when RAM is open. Not Good.
VISIT DOWNTOWN JACKSONVILLE on our St. Johns River our American Heritage River A FEDERAL Initiative in our newly created DIA zone.
JWC meeting 4 hours out. Anyone want to write a check for a buck to 2009-442? Public, Private, Partnership
Quote from: Noone on May 05, 2013, 08:31:42 AM
Quote from: thelakelander on March 07, 2013, 01:57:42 PM
Quote from: Cheshire Cat on March 07, 2013, 01:41:38 PM
I respect that Ennis, I just don't agree. We need more than the greening of an asphalt parking lot as an introduction to downtown. :)
I guess my stance is from this type of viewpoint. Out of all the things currently needed to create a vibrant downtown, this ranks pretty low on the priority list, given the location. There's virtually no foot traffic here and the bridge ramps pretty much kill off connectivity to adjacent properties. You could literally put Disney inside this space and the economic spinoff would be limited due to the immediate context. I'd probably argue that anything someone can suggest to improve this space, other than laying sod and a few trees, their suggestion would be better off in other spaces throughout downtown.
If there is a movement to stir up various groups to put time and energy into improving a space, let's address real public spaces that people actually use downtown and that have the ability to stimulate private sector economic development on properties surrounding them. Off the top of my head, Hemming, the new Courthouse Plaza, the riverwalks, the Shipyards, Metro Park, the parks along Hogans Creek, etc. all should be a higher priority.
Shipyards III
Hey Bike guys. Right now there is an RFI! RFP! for 30 days on the entire SHIPYARDS property. What about a bike rack next to the floating dock that nobody can use. I'm serious. How about a bike rack next to the Mayor Brown kayak logo at Metropolitan Park Marina? I'm serious.
These two little tactical positive benefits will immediately create an organic mini cluster of infill entrepreneurial energy That will spark explosive connectivity in an active recreational activity that will add to a 24/7 Downtown Experience.
The RAM dock is only open when RAM is open. Not Good.
VISIT DOWNTOWN JACKSONVILLE on our St. Johns River our American Heritage River A FEDERAL Initiative in our newly created DIA zone.
SHIPYARDS III
Downtown Experience Committee meeting of the DIA just 3 hours out. Starts at 4pm 1st floor city hall open to the Public. Will there be any media there?
New signage on our Waterways!!!!
Has it been reported anywhere?
I know it hasn"t been in Waterways. Pre Aundra Wallace.
Haven"t seen an agenda. I"m having some issues with my computer and I"m at the library. Has one been sent out? Anyone. This is the type of stuff that the entire city of Jacksonville and especially our Regional partners should be concerned about. The crushing of the Public Trust.
Dozens and dozens of examples.
Will there be any coverage at all. Even if its no comment. Complete and total backroom deals. Visit Jacksonville!
Anybody, Just ask Scott Wilson about the floating dock at Shipyards. He was sitting next to me at one of these meetings.
New Waterways signage. Pre Aundra Wallace (I feel so sorry for the man)
Let us know if the shipyards property is discussed if you will. Thanks for attending the meetings.
Another thread worthy of a bump. Public, Private, Partnership?