It's good to hear that the San Marco Publix project still has life.
Quote“San Marco, with Regency’s Publix center, has momentum, and they’re working on restructuring the condominiums to multifamily, and retail interest still continues to be very, very strong in that site.â€
http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/blog/2013/01/retail-brokers-optimistic-new-tenants.html?page=2
Don't tease me, Lake. When this project is finally turning dirt, I'll be grinning ear to ear. Until then, please excuse my skepticism.
They have too much invested in the site to not do anything. Unfortunately they have too much invested to do something that isn't profitable, and so it has taken a while to get it started. It will happen, just a matter of when.
Per the article, what on earth is the Fuqua development in Riverside?? Is that 220 Riverside or Brooklyn Park?
Fuqua is doing the commercial development portion of the Pope and Land property in Brooklyn.
Our San Marco team needs to meet with Regency Properties and JTA and kick the San Marco Skyway Extension into high gear. I could imagine all sorts of opportunities for cooperative development - perhaps even enough to get the original plan back in motion.
If they can integrate skyway into that project I'd def be willing to wait a few more years for them to do it right. And by then I may be able to afford to buy there, lol.
If I could convince my favorite Colombian, I'd be living there too!
I'll believe it once I've walked out of this said Publix with some chicken... until then, I just don't trust it to ever be built.
The Resident has an article updating the status of this development:
QuoteAfter six years of dormancy, the East San Marco development project at the corner of Hendricks Avenue and Atlantic Boulevard is once again showing signs of life.
While key players emphasized that details still have a very long way to go before anything is worked out or released to the public, focused conversations are once again taking place and all involved remain committed to the project.
“I’m certainly more optimistic now than I was even a year ago that we will be able to move forward with the project in some form,†said Tom Fleming, vice president of investments for Regency Centers, who, along with St. Joe Company, is developing the site under the name East San Marco LLC.
full article: http://residentnews.net/2013/02/06/east-san-marco-showing-signs-life/
Quote“We have worked on this project for a long time so we have a lot of good data and will consider everything we’ve looked at in the past. But the original PUD [Planned Unit Development] approved some penthouse, luxury condominiums that we can no longer include. Scope is the question moving forward â€" what are you really going to build and what can sustain in that area?â€
I know someone associated with the project and they said that in the initial sales period the units that sold first were the million dollar penthouses. The trouble was with the 1 and 2 bedroom units. I understand that the conversion to multi-family would reduce the need for larger units, but I would have liked to see some luxury units in this project.
Especially in the current market environment, do you think luxury units would fly unless they were riverfront or beachfront?
it depends on what the definiton of luxury is.
Has anyone heard anything new on this project? I heard the multifamily/residential piece by Wells Fargo might be moving ahead first. ????
forward momentum?
http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2013/09/10/local-developer-working-east-san-marco.html
^So a land use change would be needed to build apartments instead of condos? I wonder if San Marco residents would be opposed?
^Good question. I think most would just be happy to finally get some movement on the grocery story.
Quote from: thelakelander on September 10, 2013, 03:52:48 PM
^So a land use change would be needed to build apartments instead of condos? I wonder if San Marco residents would be opposed?
Where do you see something about a land use change? Article reads as if they have to amend the PUD.
My bad. I should have mentioned a zoning change since the PUD would have to be modified to allow apartments.
Haha. Threw me off for a second. I'd imagine market forces will necessitate a design that isn't quite as high end as the original. Unless they dramatically alter the site plan or request more density, I can't see how there would be much of an arguement against amending the PUD though. It is Jacksonville, so I guess you never know.
The total property is about 5 acres and land use is CGC which means a maximum density of 40 per acre. If they want to build more than 200 units (+/- depending on actual acreage), they will have to do a land use change - just like St Johns Village in Avondale. Except for the Publix, the economics of these two projects are similar. Both originally had high end condos and are now planning luxury apartments.
My guess is that as long as they provide enough parking for the commercial and residential onsite, and they follow the general building form outlined in the approved PUD that they will be supported by a majority of the neighborhood.
QuotePublic to weigh in on changes to East San Marco Publix deal
The San Marco neighborhood will have the opportunity to weigh in on the East San Marco Publix Supermarkets Inc. development proposed at the corner of Hendricks Avenue and Atlantic Boulevard.
Councilwoman Lori Boyer has organized a town hall meeting for residents at 7 p.m. Oct. 10 at the Baylis Community Center.
full article: http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2013/09/30/public-to-weigh-in-on-changes-to-east.html
Publix can't get here soon enough.
Anyone going to this tonight? It's my son's birthday, so I won't be able to make it tonight but I'm interested in learning about the latest news concerning this project.
^ I wish. I've got family in town, otherwise i'd be front and center. Hopefully Doug can make it and report back.
I've got class and the wife has work. However some of my neighbors are going so hopefully they can report back.
going to a lecture at fscj kent.
Per story on JBJ:
Oct 10, 2013, 8:40pm EDT
First glimpse, details of long-awaited San Marco
Ashley Gurbal Kritzer
Reporter-
Jacksonville Business Journal
Email | LinkedIn | Twitter | Google+
The updated plans for the East San Marco Publix development includes more residential units and less boutique retail space than the project proposed half a decade ago.
San Marco residents met with developers Whitehall Realty LP, Regency Centers Corp. and St. Joe Co. on Thursday in a town hall meeting coordinated by Councilwoman Lori Boyer.
The project was largely well received by the residents attending the meeting, with traffic in the surrounding neighborhoods the largest concern. Several applauded the developers' design and had positive comments about the mixed-use concept.
The Business Journal first reported the deal was back in motion, and Whitehall was in talks with the developers on Sept. 10
St. Joe and Regency entered a joint venture partnership in 2006 to pursue the project, which was put on hold by the recession. Jacksonville-based Whitehall is joining the team to develop the apartment component of the project.
The project now includes 240 apartments in four and five stories over a 30,000-square-foot Publix Supermarkets Inc. store and 14,000 square feet of small-shop boutique space. Like the original proposal, the building will be Mediterranean style with a blend of glass, stucco and stone.
The original proposal called for 125 condominiums and 27,000 square feet of small-shop space. The Publix is the same as first proposed, the same urban footprint as the grocer's Riverside store.
There will be 570 parking spaces, with a wrapped parking structure so residents can park on the same level as their apartment.
The development also includes an enclosed pool deck.
John Carey, managing partner of Whitehall, said the apartments will average 900 square feet.
The JBJ has a few renderings of what this project may look like:
http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2013/10/10/east-san-marco-publix-largely-accepted.html?s=image_gallery
I notice that the number of units has increased to 240 instead of the original 125. The JBJ article states the project was largely well received by the residents. It's very interesting to see how this project is being received compared with the Commander.
If the total in the JBJ is correct, the number of units on 5.00 acres is 275 (240 apts + 35 townhomes) plus 44,000 SF retail.
St Johns Village is proposing 260 units and 10,000 SF retail on 5.86 acres, just for comparison.
I wasn't able to make the meeting last night, but met with John a couple of weeks ago. I am in full support of his project. Nobody seems to have an issue with the density increase. The merchants are thrilled because they see that many more new customers.
The only real issue to work out is traffic operations for residents leaving the garage in the morning. The developer's traffic consultant will be meeting with several of us next week, including the Landon principal and leaders of the Safe Routes to School effort, to work out a solution.
In the past, you've mentioned the idea of a TIF (Tax Increment Finance) District to help cover the costs of a potential Skyway expansion into San Marco.
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php?topic=18483.0
Do you think that is an idea that this development group could get behind?
I am huge fan of this project. I just wish it would get off the ground already. If this was in Avondale, a zoning change would be the death knell of the development. Wayne Wood would never allow it. I hope San Marco can rally behind this and expedite the process instead of impede it.
How did this Wayne Wood fellow get so much power?
Quote from: Stephen on October 11, 2013, 09:05:33 AM
How did this Wayne Wood fellow get so much power?
Wayne is a good guy, who's done a lot for the community over the years. He may think the St. Johns Village development is too intense for Avondale but he's free to have his own opinion and it's worth just as much as anyone else's, for or against that project. I think some of you give him a little more power than he really has. If his opinion is all that stands in the way of the Commander project moving forward, they'll be breaking ground pretty soon. At the end of the day, opinions have to be backed with supporting rational data validating them to be successful in changing the conversation. At least from how the media has been covering the Commander project, it doesn't appear the rational data exists at this point. Nevertheless, it is pretty eye-opening to see how these similar sized projects are being viewed by the communities surrounding them.
Quote from: thelakelander on October 11, 2013, 12:50:01 AM
The JBJ article states the project was largely well received by the residents. It's very interesting to see how this project is being received compared with the Commander.
I think that has something to do with really wanting Publix and knowing the lot has sat empty for five years
This could be a part of it as well. The East San Marco site is an underutilized eyesore and San Marco has been lusting after Publix for quite a while. However, this type of infill project seems to fall in line with the desires of many who participated in the creation of the San Marco by Design study a few years back. Even going back to the original planning of the project, i don't recall huge debate centering on intensity and scale.
Btw, here's a rendering of the East San Marco project:
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Development/1463-San-Marco/i-RBRPjGK/0/M/eastsanmarco-westelevation-600-M.jpg)
- 240 apartments
- 35 townhouses
- 30,000 square-foot Publix
- 14,000 square-feet of additional retail/dining
The word at Aardolf last night was that people in attendance seemed pretty happy with the proposed project. As others have alluded to, a lot of people I've talked to previously in the neighborhood are just happy for the chance that the grocery store many finally be coming; some would even take a Publix without the rest of the project over the empty lot that's there now.
Quote from: thelakelander on October 11, 2013, 09:33:50 AM
Btw, here's a rendering of the East San Marco project:
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Development/1463-San-Marco/i-RBRPjGK/0/M/eastsanmarco-westelevation-600-M.jpg)
- 240 apartments
- 35 townhouses
- 30,000 square-foot Publix
- 14,000 square-feet of additional retail/dining
That looks good as it is in the rendering. My concern is a "San Marco Place" reversal. I have the full-size print of the 2-tower original design of San Marco Place rolled up somewhere in storage at my parent's house. It was beautiful, real white stucco appearance and genuine mediterranean architectural elements. Then what we got was vastly different - beige cheap faux stucco, lower quality materials throughout, imitation mediterranean, etc. I would hope that this project at least resembles its rendering and doesn't turn into a cheap beige faux stucco development.
I am glad it's rentals, though! (which doesn't bode as well for quality of finish as if it were going to be condos...trade-offs)
Quote from: Tacachale on September 10, 2013, 03:59:00 PM
^Good question. I think most would just be happy to finally get some movement on the grocery store.
In my opinion, a grocery store would seal the deal for me that San Marco is the most desirable neighborhood in Jax. I hope quality design and materials come to fruition, and then that would be the ultimate positive - a clean, charming, attractive neighborhood with a relatively uniform theme that isn't too "forced", with walkability, amenities, and convenience to downtown, as well as lots of housing options across all different levels. A grocer is really all that's missing.
Quote from: simms3 on October 11, 2013, 12:35:33 PM
Quote from: Tacachale on September 10, 2013, 03:59:00 PM
^Good question. I think most would just be happy to finally get some movement on the grocery store.
In my opinion, a grocery store would seal the deal for me that San Marco is the most desirable neighborhood in Jax. I hope quality design and materials come to fruition, and then that would be the ultimate positive - a clean, charming, attractive neighborhood with a relatively uniform theme that isn't too "forced", with walkability, amenities, and convenience to downtown, as well as lots of housing options across all different levels. A grocer is really all that's missing.
I feel the exact same.
Quote from: thelakelander on October 11, 2013, 08:44:11 AM
In the past, you've mentioned the idea of a TIF (Tax Increment Finance) District to help cover the costs of a potential Skyway expansion into San Marco.
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php?topic=18483.0
Do you think that is an idea that this development group could get behind?
They would be fools not to support it because it wouldn't cost them any extra. JTA really needs to be the driver of the TIF concept because the funds generated would be used mostly to extend the transit line into the neighhorhood. I don't believe this is on JTA's radar at the moment.
A JBJ article about the San Marco project's meeting last night.
QuoteSan Marco embraces Publix deal, unlike infill opposition elsewhere
In a city that seems to often resist proposed infill projects, a town hall meeting on the East San Marco Publix was an interesting change of pace.
Residents were largely supportive of the project — which will include 240 apartments, 35 townhomes, a 30,000 square-foot Publix Supermarkets Inc. store and 14,000 square feet of small-shop retail space at the corner of Hendricks Avenue and Atlantic Boulevard — which was presented by developers Regency Centers Corp., St. Joe Co. and Whitehall Realty Partners LP.
Once Whitehall managing partner John Carey wrapped up his presentation and opened the floor for questions, there was a pause. Then, a resident raised her hand and asked Carey when the Publix would open.
full article: http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2013/10/11/san-marcos-response-to-infill-publix.html
30,000 square-foot Publix - Is that the same store footprint as the Riverside Publix?
Pretty much. According to the article, it shows a 30,000 square foot box for Publix. Publix's smallest model is around 28,000 square feet. The Riverside Publix is that size.
This about sums it up ...
QuoteAnother of Jacksonville's historic urban neighborhoods, Avondale, has a track record of fighting commercial development. Most recently, a retail-and-apartment redevelopment of the St. Johns Village project on Fishweir Creek has gone through six months of negotiations with residents, and historic preservation activist Wayne Wood was recently quoted in the Florida Times-Union as describing the project as "monstrous."
Avondale's ire over a Mellow Mushroom Pizza Bakers at the corner of Ingleside and St. Johns avenues delayed that project by more than a year.
This is wonderful news. I know across the river, residents have had to travel quite a ways to get their groceries. Sometimes, the faithful Publix shoppers will go to their favorite stores, even if they're well out of the way. I would greatly consider transferring to this store if the opportunity and timing were right. I really should ask one of the big wigs what they know about a timetable for an opening the next time I see them.
Publix is the Florida grocery store. I would not step foot in a Dirty Dixie if I was starving!
Quote from: deathstar on October 12, 2013, 03:45:09 AM
I really should ask one of the big wigs what they know about a timetable for an opening the next time I see them.
This article says if everything goes right with the rezoning, it should be completed in late 2015/early 2016.
QuoteCarey said he felt the San Marco residents present at Thursday evening's town hall meeting responded "favorably," and that in the coming weeks, he plans to file with the city requests for a land-use change and a change to the planned unit development to accommodate more residential unit than previously planned. The PUD would also cover changes to the original design.
If those changes are approved, Carey said, he'll close in the spring, break ground by fall 2014 and complete the project in late 2015 or early 2016.
http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/blog/morning-edition/2013/10/behind-the-scenes-of-san-marco-deal.html?page=2
Quote from: dougskiles on October 11, 2013, 03:14:20 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on October 11, 2013, 08:44:11 AM
In the past, you've mentioned the idea of a TIF (Tax Increment Finance) District to help cover the costs of a potential Skyway expansion into San Marco.
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php?topic=18483.0
Do you think that is an idea that this development group could get behind?
They would be fools not to support it because it wouldn't cost them any extra. JTA really needs to be the driver of the TIF concept because the funds generated would be used mostly to extend the transit line into the neighhorhood. I don't believe this is on JTA's radar at the moment.
How could we get it on their radar?
"In my opinion, a grocery store would seal the deal for me that San Marco is the most desirable neighborhood in Jax."
Simms, have you ever actually lived in San Marco? It has two BIG problems that will never go away, and which have a direct impact on quality of life. Train crossings running right through several parts of the neighborhood, which can really screw up traffic flow and are completely outside the realm of control, and the flooding. It is bad over there close to the river and I got news for you, it's only going to get worse. There are street in San Marco that flood with a high tide, they don't need a storm to make it happen. I agree it is one of the more desirable places, but Riverside-Avondale will always be a notch or two above. Memorial Park, Five Points, Park and King, The Shoppes of Avondale, FSCJ, The Cummer Museum, the list goes on, and we already have a Publix.
(That being said, I did just invest in a little property over there, and I am happy with my results.)
Many of the flooding problems have been minimized with the new drainage installed as part of the rebuilding of San Marco Blvd.
And last time I checked, Riverside-Avondale also has train tracks running alongside the neighborhood
^And flooding (http://jaxpsychogeo.com/west/riverside-avondale-big-flood-on-little-fishweir-creek/)...
As someone who lives 2 houses from the tracks I don't see them as much of a problem. Especially if you work on the Southside, the traffic is negligible compared to coming from farther away over the bridge. Both neighborhoods have their strengths, I wouldn't regard these as as notable weaknesses.
Haters gon hate.
Quote from: mtraininjax on October 12, 2013, 07:46:02 AM
Publix is the Florida grocery store. I would not step foot in a Dirty Dixie if I was starving!
Obviously never stepped foot in the 'Winn Dixie' on S.R. 210 (...and many others around town) their rebuild/remodel program has been excellent. The unit on S.R. 210 includes a cheese shop as big as the Riverside Publix bakery, they buy the cheeses in every form from the four corners of the globe, have tastings, samples, etc... Amazing and GOOD!
Bumping this thread as a discussion on it in the Urban Update thread. It was noted that public hearing signs have been posted recently. Question if these are the result of it being changed from condos to apartments and therefore a change in the number of units??
^Since the previous plan involving condos was a PUD, they need to get the land use and PUD altered to change to the plan (ie, to have apartments, and more units, than the old plan). That will involve public hearings and could take a while, especially if there's opposition. But so far most neighborhood folks have been pretty supportive, so hopefully it will go ahead smoothly.
If the number of units were the same, would the change from "condo" to "apartment" require amending the PUD, with attendant hearings and such?
Yes, I'm pretty sure any change requires amending the PUD.
As long as there is a Publix in San Marco the neighborhood isn't going to complain unless they drastically change the original plan.
Construction starts this summer:
http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=542279
Publix will open in about a year and the rest will be completed by 2017.
Great news.
While I like the addition of apartments, retail, and a grocery store - I hope this doesn't effectively shift the center of the neighborhood from Balis Park to the intersection at Atlantic and Hendricks because right now that intersection lacks any kind of a sense of place. Of course, that could be easily resolved by installing some unique architectural feature at the intersection.
Awesome. Can't wait for this to happen.
Amazing news!
Quote from: Kerry on February 19, 2014, 02:05:35 PM
While I like the addition of apartments, retail, and a grocery store - I hope this doesn't effectively shift the center of the neighborhood from Balis Park to the intersection at Atlantic and Hendricks because right now that intersection lacks any kind of a sense of place. Of course, that could be easily resolved by installing some unique architectural feature at the intersection.
I doubt there will be a shift. However, I do believe there will be a lot more people walking on the sidewalks along Hendricks and Atlantic (a few blocks in each direction). The character of that intersection will also change because instead of it being anchored by an empty weed filled lot, there will be a zero-setback multi-level mixed-use structure with 44,000 square feet of grocery, retail and dining at street level.
wonderful to hear the news.
QuoteEast San Marco financing more challenging than anticipated
Although the East San Marco Publix project is moving forward, its developer says securing an equity partner has been more challenging than he anticipated.
"We have been surprised that we haven't had much more interest than we've had," said John Carey, principal of Whitehall Realty Partners. "It's just a tough deal — it's a relatively expensive project."
full article: http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/blog/morning-edition/2014/03/east-san-marco-financing-more-challenging-than.html
Sounds like what Simms has repeatedly stated in the past about the Jax market:
QuoteIn addition to being an expensive project, East San Marco faces additional challenges. Jacksonville is largely viewed as a tertiary city by investors — meaning that with less demand, real estate development projects pose more risk. "Mixed-use in most other cities in the Southeast is routine," Carey said.
I was talking about this with some folks this weekend. The bigger issue than just finding an investor is the type of project. As the article says, mixed-use developments are rare in Jacksonville compared to any number of other cities, so there's not much out there to gauge by. The reason they're having trouble (such as it is) is because Jax is behind the curve on this type of development, not because it's a difficult market to invest in. If this were another residential only or commercial only development there'd be no problem, especially on that location. Fortunately we're finally trying for something a little better in this case, but playing catchup can clearly be more difficult for the first couple of people trying it out.
I see where the company (Whitehall Realty) that was to develop the real estate part of the revamped plans has pulled out of the project per article on JBJ. Regency states they are hopeful to have another company in place for the real estate portion by end of 2014. Wow.
Some not-to-pleasant news from the Jacksonville Business Journal
Quote
Apr 4, 2014, 11:46am EDT
Residential developer pulls out of East San Marco Publix deal
Ashley Gurbal Kritzer
Regency Centers Corp. is looking for a new residential developer for East San Marco.
The residential developer who was pursuing the East San Marco project is out of the deal, leading Regency Centers Corp. to look for a new partner and leaving the fate of the project up in the air.
"Regency Centers is seeking a residential developer to construct the 280-unit upscale multi-family residence portion of the project including a residential parking garage and courtyard. Once started, the project is expected to be complete in 24-30 months," the Jacksonville-based retail real estate investment trust said Friday in a statement.
...
http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2014/04/04/residential-developer-pulls-out-of-east-san-marco.html
More:
Quote
Apr 4, 2014, 2:49pm EDT
Developer: 'A bit of reticence' from equity investors slowed East San Marco
Ashley Gurbal Kritzer
Reporter- Jacksonville Business Journal
In the months that John Carey had the East San Marco site under contract, he said he approached "quite a few" equity partners to invest the apartment-and-retail deal at the corner of Atlantic Boulevard and Hendricks Avenue.
None of them were willing to back the project, though, and at the end of March, his contract with Regency Centers Corp. (NYSE: REG) expired.
"There's a complexity and cost to it that is probably higher than any that's been seen in Jacksonville," Carey said. "So there's a bit of a reticence to jump into that."
...
Mixed-use projects like East San Marco and 220 Riverside are not only expensive and complex undertakings — they're pioneering projects in Jacksonville, with no succcessful examples to assure equity investors that the numbers can work and they'll make money.
...
Hopefully this will get back on track. Kudos to the developer for trying something a little better than we're used to.
These types of developments happen all over the country.
Retail on the first floor and condos above.
San Marco Square is a thriving area in a desperate need for a neighborhood grocery store.
Why does Jacksonville think it's reinventing the wheel?
It's funny because to me 220 riverside seems like such a riskier project than east san marco. In my opinion east san marco would EASILY work in that space, brooklyn may be a bit too up and coming.
I wish the projects could have gone East San Marco first to prove the concept in Jax. Im worried 220 Riverside wont lease up and we will be set even further back for mixed use developments here in jax... :(
Quote from: BoldBoyOfTheSouth on April 04, 2014, 03:33:34 PM
These types of developments happen all over the country.
Retail on the first floor and condos above.
San Marco Square is a thriving area in a desperate need for a neighborhood grocery store.
Why does Jacksonville think it's reinventing the wheel?
Agreed. Its like such a no brainer its crazy. Youve got a succesful urban district with a great retail base, but a huge lack of apartments and grocery. And a perfect location to fill the gap. AAAARGH! If only San marco were considered its own town and not compared to the rest of jax... haha
Can this be incorporated into one of the other East San Marco/San Marco Publix threads??? It sure makes it easier to follow the whole story.
Quote from: Bolles_Bull on April 04, 2014, 03:35:53 PM
It's funny because to me 220 riverside seems like such a riskier project than east san marco. In my opinion east san marco would EASILY work in that space, brooklyn may be a bit too up and coming.
I wish the projects could have gone East San Marco first to prove the concept in Jax. Im worried 220 Riverside wont lease up and we will be set even further back for mixed use developments here in jax... :(
I think the 220 Riverside project is causing even more concern. I am not aware of any leases signed yet for commercial portion?? Perhaps I am wrong but with the attention this project has generated and with the construction as far along as it currently is I think the fact of no leases yet is a red flag.
Franchise Consultant with SCORE
The difficulty in financing mixed-use developments in Jacksonville is not because it is a tertiary market, because Jacksonville is in fact a secondary market with much greater liquidity than tertiary markets. There are really only two reasons, and the primary reason is the pioneering project problem. In many urban settings today, urban infill is a very popular product. However, in Jacksonville the population flows are still migrating away from the central core into the suburbs and exurbs, not towards the core. And as Ben Carter said, there's no leadership or broad support for revitalizing the central core. Investors realize these projects are swimming against the current and therefore require a huge risk tolerance, something investors try to avoid.
Resubmitted on behalf of
Paul Hazlett
Real Estate Investment Advisor
CBCworldwide.com
Franchise Consultant with SCORE
The difficulty in financing mixed-use developments in Jacksonville is not because it is a tertiary market, because Jacksonville is in fact a secondary market with much greater liquidity than tertiary markets. There are really only two reasons, and the primary reason is the pioneering project problem. In many urban settings today, urban infill is a very popular product. However, in Jacksonville the population flows are still migrating away from the central core into the suburbs and exurbs, not towards the core. And as Ben Carter said, there's no leadership or broad support for revitalizing the central core. Investors realize these projects are swimming against the current and therefore require a huge risk tolerance, something investors try to avoid.
Resubmitted on behalf of
Paul Hazlett
Real Estate Investment Advisor
CBCworldwide.com
Even if, let's say Publix goes belly up (it won't) street level retail with parking at the edge of San Marco Square could be carved up into small shops and restaurants.
If the apartments are designed right, upscale but not over the top with studios, one and two bedroom units, there is a market for those.
To be young and within stumbling drunk distance to area restaurants and bars and brunch opportunities just steps from their doors...
Actually, if priced right, I may move there.
Quote from: wordofmouse on April 04, 2014, 04:05:12 PM
Franchise Consultant with SCORE
The difficulty in financing mixed-use developments in Jacksonville is not because it is a tertiary market, because Jacksonville is in fact a secondary market with much greater liquidity than tertiary markets. There are really only two reasons, and the primary reason is the pioneering project problem. In many urban settings today, urban infill is a very popular product. However, in Jacksonville the population flows are still migrating away from the central core into the suburbs and exurbs, not towards the core. And as Ben Carter said, there's no leadership or broad support for revitalizing the central core. Investors realize these projects are swimming against the current and therefore require a huge risk tolerance, something investors try to avoid.
Resubmitted on behalf of
Paul Hazlett
Real Estate Investment Advisor
CBCworldwide.com
So, what he is really saying: "hey you redneck politicians in JAX, if you hayseeds want this financing, you better place your fried chicken down and come up with more taxpayer corporate incentives. But please, wipe your greasy fingers prior to shaking our hands as you fork over the money. Then we'll finance you."
What he's saying is that the out of town folks investing in the projects aren't confident these projects will make them money. No matter what's happening elsewhere, there aren't really any successful mixed-use developments like this in town to compare to, so the first few are going to be the pioneers. And as Wordofmouse says, the investors aren't seeing a lot of support from the leadership or demographic trends, so who could really blame them?
The hope is that these first pioneer projects do get off the ground and are successful. Then hopefully we'll start to catch up to the trends in other communities where these projects are more and more common.
Quote from: BoldBoyOfTheSouth on April 04, 2014, 03:33:34 PM
These types of developments happen all over the country.
Retail on the first floor and condos above.
San Marco Square is a thriving area in a desperate need for a neighborhood grocery store.
Why does Jacksonville think it's reinventing the wheel?
High level, I totally agree.
Quote from: Bolles_Bull on April 04, 2014, 03:35:53 PM
It's funny because to me 220 riverside seems like such a riskier project than east san marco. In my opinion east san marco would EASILY work in that space, brooklyn may be a bit too up and coming.
I wish the projects could have gone East San Marco first to prove the concept in Jax. Im worried 220 Riverside wont lease up and we will be set even further back for mixed use developments here in jax... :(
I totally agree. In a larger/deeper market, Brooklyn and San Marco would be separate from downtown and would have no bearing on each other. In Jax, at least on paper, not so much. 220 Riverside also does seem like a much riskier project.
Quote from: edjax on April 04, 2014, 03:54:15 PM
I think the 220 Riverside project is causing even more concern. I am not aware of any leases signed yet for commercial portion?? Perhaps I am wrong but with the attention this project has generated and with the construction as far along as it currently is I think the fact of no leases yet is a red flag.
I don't see much leasing activity with 220 Riverside. At least, slowwww leasing velocity at best. I have mentioned previously that there are apartment developers in Atlanta who don't even underwrite the retail space that they by law must include at the base. Lenders and the developers will look at the apartments only. Not sure how it was done with 220 Riverside, but then again I don't know their strategy. Build to hold? Build to sell in this market? And then in either case, what are their assumptions about the retail? I would think they did make some, because retail wasn't mandatory if I'm not mistaken, and the developer next door is not including any with those apartments. Fortunately carry costs aren't as extreme as in NYC (for vacant retail).
Quote from: wordofmouse on April 04, 2014, 04:05:12 PM
Franchise Consultant with SCORE
The difficulty in financing mixed-use developments in Jacksonville is not because it is a tertiary market, because Jacksonville is in fact a secondary market with much greater liquidity than tertiary markets. There are really only two reasons, and the primary reason is the pioneering project problem. In many urban settings today, urban infill is a very popular product. However, in Jacksonville the population flows are still migrating away from the central core into the suburbs and exurbs, not towards the core. And as Ben Carter said, there's no leadership or broad support for revitalizing the central core. Investors realize these projects are swimming against the current and therefore require a huge risk tolerance, something investors try to avoid.
Resubmitted on behalf of
Paul Hazlett
Real Estate Investment Advisor
CBCworldwide.com
I totally disagree about Jax being a secondary market. Speaking from the investment side myself, Jax is a tertiary market, through and through. Atlanta is a [large] secondary market. Boston is a [small] primary/gateway market. Austin is [small] a secondary market. Charlotte, as well. Jax, Memphis, Milwaukee, Indy, Hartford, etc etc are all [large] tertiary markets. Baton Rouge is a medium-sized tertiary market.
If Jax is a secondary market, that means investors who are being squeezed out of NYC, Boston, DC, SF, and arguably LA/Seattle are looking at Jax next. No. They are looking at Portland, Minneapolis, Atlanta, Dallas, Chicago, Miami, San Diego, etc etc next. It also can vary a bit depending on product.
Quote from: BoldBoyOfTheSouth on April 04, 2014, 04:09:01 PM
Even if, let's say Publix goes belly up (it won't) street level retail with parking at the edge of San Marco Square could be carved up into small shops and restaurants.
If the apartments are designed right, upscale but not over the top with studios, one and two bedroom units, there is a market for those.
To be young and within stumbling drunk distance to area restaurants and bars and brunch opportunities just steps from their doors...
Actually, if priced right, I may move there.
I don't want to read too much into this, but this could be what's worrying investors. These apartments would all rent $1.90-$2.40 psf no problem in Atlanta, Charlotte, Austin (actually they would be closer to $3psf in Austin), etc etc. In Jax, granted the land is cheaper (though with these sunbelt cities it's not that large of a spread), rents don't often exceed $1.50psf. In only a few cases do they exceed $1.50psf.
So you as a renter know what you can get on the SS for $1.10-$1.20psf (granite counters, 9 ft ceilings, space space space, a balcony, etc etc). Are you saying you wouldn't pay $1.60-$1.80psf for less? Like what's your ceiling and how do you determine it? Is it capped by your income and perceived living costs as a percentage of your disposable? Transportation costs are high in Jax as a percentage of income. The opposite is true in NYC and SF, where it's no big deal to spend 30-40+% of your gross on rent.
thank you Tacachale, that is exactly what Mr. Hazlett is saying. He is not taking a shot at our town, matter of fact he was one of the first to put up $$$$ during the years Jacksonville Dwt. Still had a chance. your down town is Town Center, Those are the shops and business you want in an urban core. We will find a package that will be attractive to the investor community.
Problem with the highrise condos on the Southbank:
1. They were over priced from the start.
2. They are several blocks from San Marco Square with too many highway underpasses, railroad tracks, empty buildings or drab store fronts to make it a pleasurable stroll. (Though, this is beginning to change with infill, new businesses and lighted and paved parking underneath the highways.)
3. The high rise condos have no street level retail and drab suburban style grass. People who want to live within high rise buildings in an urban setting don't want grass out front, don't want dehumanizing reflective glass on the street level exterior or ugly parking garages at eye level. They want to walk outside their doors to go to a cafe, a nice restaurant, walk their dogs as they go to the dry cleaners and meet their friends and say hi to their neighbors who are doing the same.
4. Walk around those high rise condos and you basically alone, wandering the lifeless, windswept plazas while looking at suburban style grass, drab garages and basically nothing to do for ten or twenty blocks. You are there alone most of the time. This is not urban living that most people want, much less over pay for.
Quote from: BoldBoyOfTheSouth on April 04, 2014, 04:52:15 PM
Problem with the highrise condos on the Southbank:
1. They were over priced from the start.
2. They are several blocks from San Marco Square with too many highway underpasses, railroad tracks, empty buildings or drab store fronts to make it a pleasurable stroll. (Though, this is beginning to change with infill, new businesses and lighted and paved parking underneath the highways.)
3. The high rise condos have no street level retail and drab suburban style grass. People who want to live within high rise buildings in an urban setting don't want grass out front, don't want dehumanizing reflective glass on the street level exterior or ugly parking garages at eye level. They want to walk outside their doors to go to a cafe, a nice restaurant, walk their dogs as they go to the dry cleaners and meet their friends and say hi to their neighbors who are doing the same.
4. Walk around those high rise condos and you basically alone, wandering the lifeless, windswept plazas while looking at suburban style grass, drab garages and basically nothing to do for ten or twenty blocks. You are there alone most of the time. This is not urban living that most people want, much less over pay for.
Well I can tell you are speaking from no experience. Here is where you are wrong in your mindset:
1. Overpriced in what way? What makes them overpriced? Is it lack of amenities? (the Strand is *highly* amenitized, and the Peninsula is easily considered luxury, trust me) Is it materials/quality? (what makes Strand inferior to what you find on SS? I would think it's superior) Is it location? (well let's move on to addressing your other concerns)
Is it overpriced to you because it's Type I construction, requiring concrete, crane rentals, more expensive land, mitigation, experienced high rise contractors, etc etc? Or do you not care about the building construction itself and factor that into rent? SS apartments are typically Type V wood frame construction. Most of them are absolute shit and will suffer damage from any major hurricane or wind event. Many will suffer damage from termites and or moisture problems. And any one of them can be lit up like a kindle box under certain duress (I personally would feel safer in my apartment on the 20th floor of Strand knowing a kitchen fire is occurring 10 floors below, than being in one of those wooden apartments during a serious kitchen fire...several Type III construction apartments across the country that were nearly complete have gone totally up in flames in minutes, in the past month)
So construction alone will require higher rents.
2/4. Yes. So you're asking developers/lenders to plop down millions of dollars to be pioneers in this arena, but you're not willing to pay $12K/yr to do the same? Something's wrong with that picture.
In both SF and NYC, there are similar areas of the city that are just now being hit with new development and gentrification. DC, as well. Believe me when I say that people are actually lining up in these cities to live in the most bombed out areas. NEMA is a 754 unit 2-tower high rise apartment community that just went up in Mid-Market near the Tenderloin in SF. This area makes any area in Jax look superb. And the building (which just opened in phases starting last Oct) is now leased-up with average rents around $5psf. The developer is the same developer that bought the Strand (Crescent Heights out of Miami). The residents are all brave, pioneering souls. When I first moved here, the area was wayyyy worse than what you describe above of the Southbank. Not only were their tumbleweeds, there were
11,000 homeless nearby and serious crime. Bombed out buildings (literally). SF's version of the Bronx. Now, just 2 years later there is a grocer going in, a new upscale gym, some restaurants, renovated boutique hotels, new bars, etc etc etc.
It took both pioneering developers (Shorenstein spent hundreds of millions to renovate 1.5 million SF of warehouse space in an old Merchandise Mart building, and then attracted Twitter's global HQ...it's basically the coolest building ever now [I just got to tour it and it's like a much cooler Google campus right in the city]). Long story short, Jax won't succeed without pioneering RENTERS as well. If your mentality is commonplace, then it has been noted by investors because Jax clearly has very poor shopping habits, very poor renting habits, etc etc. Researchers look at individual cities' collective human behavior and mentalities.
3. ?????????????????????????? In your posts 2/4 you won't live in a DT high rise because of highway overpasses, windswept [concrete] plazas, garages, railroad tracks, etc etc.
If concrete bothers you, then why would grass in a city bother you? People living in NYC, Chicago, and SF *cherish* their grass BECAUSE there isn't much of it!!! The whole appeal of Atlanta is the combination of tree coverage/grass/houses/yards right in the city. All of the new buildings here are putting grass parks on their roofs. Parks in the city are PACKED on the weekends. I don't get this comment, at all.
BoldBoy... :o
.... Ummm so the great occupancy at Strand and Peninsula are false (according to NEFLRB both stay between 88-96% full at any time)? I know several people whom reside in both and love it there. Maybe not as good as Southside apartments but much better than some other areas.
I see the biggest problem of these type investments is that it has been proven many times over that Jaxons have no problem driving 10 minutes to get something, even if it's available one block away. Most places can rely on a guaranteed market for their wares, and in places like Miami when you are looking for a place to live, you'll gladly pay more for a place where you don't have to sit in miles of causeway traffic to get basic staples. In Jacksonville, we are not yet to the point where we will choose the store downstairs over a store possibly paying cheaper prices (as a result of cheaper rents) off of University. Also, seeing that the hype of 220 Riverside isn't matching the apparent financials yet, I'm sure that is a cautionary tale for any and all investors. No one wants to get holding the bag.
^Yes, that's a lot of assumption there, those problems haven't stopped the buildings from staying almost entirely occupied and fetching record prices in sales, as we saw just a few months ago (http://jacksonville.com/business/2013-10-21/story/sale-strand-fetches-record-price-apartment). The East San Marco project is different; I don't think any perceived deficiencies with the Southbank towers have much to do with it.
Wow. Of course the only reason for the grass in front of the Peninsula is because the market turned and the planned 3rd tower did not get built.
Just curious, what is this suburban grass you talk about? Is it prettier or uglier than urban grass?
Back to the East San Marco project, there is another thread somewhere on the actual project and it would've been nice if this was actually added to that instead of starting new, but Simms has been stating this same exact thing was coming for the past few months at least. My search via Safari on iPhone isn't working, but if someone could put a link to the other thread, most peoples questions would be answered just by reading.
^^+1000. See my earlier post and I actually made comment of this in the prior thread but a new one was still started. And now we see the same stuff in at least three threads.
Quote from: JayBird on April 04, 2014, 05:25:52 PM
My search via Safari on iPhone isn't working, but if someone could put a link to the other thread, most peoples questions would be answered just by reading.
Is it this thread?
www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,17315.60.html
What East San Marco is experiencing is the exact same thing 220 Riverside went through. Many don't realize it, but it took a good decade to get what eventually became 200 Riverside off the ground.
At the end of the day, if you're asking people with no sentimental connection to Jax to invest their money into risky local projects, there are a lot better options with less risk and more return, in this state and across the country. It is, what it is. There aren't many people out there like the Weavers that are willing to lose their own good money (John Gorrie) for the community. This is one of the reasons I believe it will take a good 20 years to get anywhere near the 10,000 people living in the Northbank some believe is a must for DT vibrancy.
Pope and Land got around this issue by dividing their land adjacent to 220 Riverside into separate residential and commercial tracts. Separate groups are building each. So it's not "mixed use" but them being side by side, accomplishes the same thing.
Also, neither has the cost of a parking garage to screw up their proformas either. Many of the early infill projects in cities like Charlotte were built in a similar fashion back in the 1990s/early 2000s.
As far as East San Marco goes, is there a way configure the property to create strictly commercial and residential components or is it locked into being a mixed-use building that requires structured parking or bust?
Quote from: I-10east on April 04, 2014, 05:33:28 PM
Quote from: JayBird on April 04, 2014, 05:25:52 PM
My search via Safari on iPhone isn't working, but if someone could put a link to the other thread, most peoples questions would be answered just by reading.
Is it this thread?
www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,17315.60.html
Thank you I-10
to address the questions about 220 Riverside...I can't claim to know what is really happening/will happen, but I can say what is supposedly happening...and those involved with the project say that there are plans in place for pretty much all of the commercial space. Most of it is local and intended to showcase Jacksonville brands/products, with perhaps some nationally-recognized involvement as well (not chains per se, but well-known names). There's also an interesting plan that would certainly get everyone's attention here in this thread.
But who knows if it's all real or just wishful thinking? I do get the feeling that lease rates are a bit disappointing, but that could be MAAC's fault (they finally just made floor plans/pricing available to the general public several days ago...after months and months of inquiries) and I am aware of at least one person who pre-leased a little while ago.
I'm aware of at least three people. I met them at the Unity Plaza groundbreaking event last Sunday.
Are there any available renderings of the site plan and elevations of what was to be the latest version of the project?
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Development/1463-San-Marco/i-RBRPjGK/0/M/eastsanmarco-westelevation-600-M.jpg)
Heard from a pretty informed local that this had been postponed once again while the developer waited to see how the new Fresh Market on Riverside worked out. Anyone have anymore recent info on this project?
I hear from commercial real estate sources, the problem is now Publix. They want some new guarantees, and basically want space at 10 bucks a square for the space, or they are not doing the deal. As the anchor tenant, flexing their muscle.
Quote:
There's a complexity and cost to it that is probably higher than any that's been seen in Jacksonville," Carey said. "So there's a bit of a reticence to jump into that."
What a bunch of Bull sh*t. More expensive than building at the Beach? Or Town Center?
How complex can it be. There is a strong demand for high end residential in that neighborhood.
This is one of the most established residential neighborhoods in North Florida with no grocery store serving it at all.
Grass Roots should get over there and fill the void.............................
A parking garage and residential on top of the store. There's no Publix or any other major grocery store at the beach, town center or anywhere else in Jax with either of those elements.
Finally had a chance to speak with a District Manager today regarding a Publix in San Marco. He informed me of everything else already mentioned above, no need to get into any of that. What shocked me though, was him telling me because of the current delay, it's NOW looking like late 2016, early 2017 for that store to be opened.
Quote from: deathstar on November 21, 2014, 05:05:09 AM
Finally had a chance to speak with a District Manager today regarding a Publix in San Marco. He informed me of everything else already mentioned above, no need to get into any of that. What shocked me though, was him telling me because of the current delay, it's NOW looking like late 2016, early 2017 for that store to be opened.
Well yeah, it's almost 2015 and the only thing there is a giant empty lot.
2016 or 2017 opening means they'd still have to break ground soon. It will take over a year to build a project that size.
If someone creates a Farmer's Market on the site, does that count?
1) I'll believe it when I see it.
2) I sure as hell hope to see it -- it would be awesome to have a grocery store in walking distance.
So many times I've picked up a book at the San Marco Book Store, a coffee at Starbucks and still find myself craving the requisite 'Dark Chocolate with Whole Hazelnuts, Ritter Sports Bar... So get the damn store open already!
At this point I'd rather see a small Trader Joe's (25,000 sq ft) and a Grassroots in this location. Would be much cheaper to build and would still fill the need for a grocery store nicely.
Quote from: MusicMan on November 27, 2014, 10:38:15 AM
At this point I'd rather see a small Trader Joe's (25,000 sq ft) a
that's actually huge for Trader Joe's...most of their stores are drug store size (12,000-15,000sf)
I think a Publix would better serve the neighborhood. IMO, better to start with a full size/full service grocer, then start branching off into niches. San Marco could support a Publix...I think the scary thing for any major grocery brand is that Publix in Lakewood/San Jose and in Riverside, and now the Fresh Market in Riverside (and not necessarily any growth in between).
All the more reason for Jax to increase its [very] low density (which is why there is a dearth of stores for any given geography). Midtown Atlanta, for instance, has 2 Publixes in its center (within a quarter mile of each other), with 2 more only half a mile away (Atlantic Station and Ansley Park), a Whole Foods a mile away (with a new food market with stalls and booths across from that in the Ponce City Market), and a rumored boutique grocer to open on Peachtree in its heart.
And that is at "only" ~7-10,000 ppsm over that area (with a couple spikes over 1-2 Census Tracts to ~20,000 ppsm). But that's roughly twice to three times the density of Jacksonville's developed areas. Goes to show, Jax needs more infill - A LOT more. Sad that Duval isn't really growing and infill is happening at a breathtakingly slow rate, but it's also about what kind of person NE FL is attracting, and it isn't the stereotypical Millennial/urbanite.
Having a bunch of outspoken Clay Yarboroughs isn't helping any matters. Could be a large part of the reason Jax is developed the way it is, and why there is no Publix/grocer in San Marco. Literally, a bunch of Clay types in the city could be why there is no grocer in San Marco. Dwell on that.
In St Pete there are 2 Publix literally across the street from each other. They're barely 900 ft apart haha. Also in Gainesville there's 4 Publix, a trader Joe's and a sweet bay all within a mile of each other along 39th. I don't see any reason for Publix to not build in San Marco. It's a huge untapped market. The previously proposed housing above the store would be an excellent addition, especially if it was affordable rental property. Not only would Publix benefit from the added residents, but all of the business in the area would see a boost.
^^^The demographics/population may certainly be there. 5-10,000 people are needed to support a full service grocery store of 40-50,000 SF, on average. This will be different for different markets. Some markets need as many as 15,000 people, and the average size might increase to what is a consistent average across the country today - 60-70,000 sf.
As of the 2010 Census, there were 11,668 people in San Marco from the South Bank down to Emerson, and including St. Nicholas over to Beach/Atlantic split and slightly beyond (3 Census Tracts in total). For everyone's knowledge, the weighted average density of these 3 tracts was 3,206 people per square mile (the densest Tract 3,445 ppsm).
Given that the closest Publixes AND Winn Dixies are down at Phillips, over at University/Atlantic, and over in Riverside/DT, there is definitely a "hole".
But still, what may give grocers and retailers hesitation are deeper dives into the demographics. Anecdotally, the density is VERY VERY low. Grocers clearly have a habit of opening fewer stores in Jacksonville and trying to drive very high volume that way. Walmart is a big market share for groceries, and goods, and for good reasons as the city/metro is seen as a discount market.
As with the general city, HH Income demographics may not actually be there. The higher incomes are spread very very thinly along the river. Most importantly, GROWTH is not there. If one looks at change in population from 2000 to 2010 by Census Tract, the inner core of Jax is still RAPIDLY bleeding population.
There are 4 "core" Tracts that gained population - 3 between DT (Northbank/Southbank, total ~10,500 people), and 1 in San Marco, which grew by a whopping 1.2% over the 10 year period to 4,201 people.
Lastly, abundant parking is a necessity. There is not a "walk-up" population in Jax, and in San Marco the big spenders are middle/upper class families, meaning fewer weekly trips but larger purchases. Parking for cars/SUVs is a must. Without the development, perhaps there are site selection issues as there is not a parcel currently in San Marco that can support a single Publix with surface lot (and there is no justification for a structured parking for a single grocery), so the mid-rise development is necessary because it can provide structured parking and a more efficient layout. So it could be site selection.
So clearly there is one or both of two things going on:
1) Site selection issues / lack of opportunity, but demand/demographics definitely there
2) Demand/demographic issues
http://projects.nytimes.com/census/2010/map
The maps are interesting. It's sad to see that much of Jax has shrunk in population, even through 2010, while the far out areas have gained.
The demographics are already there for a San Marco Publix. I believe the issue for the developer is about finding a way to successfully pull off the residential component of the project.
^^^But I'd be surprised if Publix signed a legal commitment to that one specific developer for that one specific site (similar to a radius restriction). And if they did, it is likely already expired or terminated under faulty conditions (eg developer failed to deliver a shell by x date, etc).
If that is the case, and if there are other sites available, there is no reason Publix can't build their own store elsewhere in the neighborhood if they feel the demographics are there and that the store would succeed. Land is cheap, and grocery construction as a free-standing building or in a single level strip is a lot cheaper than as part of a mid/high-rise building (where configuring delivery, parking, access, layout, ventilation, etc is a lot more expensive, and as a result the store would pay significantly higher rent for the space than in a comparable single store building).
I think my points still stand - either the demographics are somehow not there (and demographics is very encompassing, from shopper habits to income to density...walking traffic would reduce parking needs and thus land/development costs, to density, to trade area population growth and income growth). Or, there are no other sites to put a Publix around there and the one site is tied up by the developer. And in the latter case, if Publix reallllllyyyyyy wanted a store there, they could approach the land owner/prospective developer for the site so that they aren't waiting any longer.
Lots of unknowns, but also too many suspicious reasons for there not to be a Publix in San Marco if Publix truly wanted a location there by now. It has been a full decade or more since the proposal. Keep that in mind. Even here in SF things don't move that slowly...
Thelakelander is correct. The holdup isn't with Publix's part of the development.
^^^That much is more than obvious. I think what we've been discussing is why there isn't a Publix (or any grocer) in San Marco yet, not who is holding up the development.
I'm amazed that the demo isn't there, but I'm unsure what exactly a Publix is looking for.
Quote from: simms3 on November 28, 2014, 04:37:18 AMI think my points still stand - either the demographics are somehow not there (and demographics is very encompassing, from shopper habits to income to density...walking traffic would reduce parking needs and thus land/development costs, to density, to trade area population growth and income growth). Or, there are no other sites to put a Publix around there and the one site is tied up by the developer. And in the latter case, if Publix reallllllyyyyyy wanted a store there, they could approach the land owner/prospective developer for the site so that they aren't waiting any longer.
My guess would be that there are not many ideal sites in San Marco for such a large development. Before this site was selected, I do know that developers looked at some other sites along Hendricks. Once you start adding up the cost to landbank small parcels together, demolition costs, rezoning, etc. those locations would have still been inferior to this one. I did some land planning for one of them....before the Atlantic/Hendricks site materialized. With that particular site, multiple buildings would have had to be taken down, surrounding streets would have needed tobe retrofitted to accommodate parking requirements and there was still a struggle to get the amount of specialty retail desired by the development group
(they didn't want to go vertical or include structured parking). In the meantime, there are three Publix stores within a 4 mile radius of San Marco. Riverside, Atlantic & University, and University & St. Augustine Road. That's better coverage than some of their locations in the Southside.
QuoteBy Karen Brune Mathis, Managing Editor
A 13-year journey to develop the high-profile East San Marco center, featuring a Publix, could be reaching its destination at the corner of Hendricks Avenue and Atlantic Boulevard.
Regency Centers Inc. Vice President Tom Fleming confirmed Wednesday his group is "actively working" toward development of East San Marco, but said an announcement or timeline isn't determined.
However, it's closer, almost 10 months after the last attempt to complete a deal and start construction. The vacant 5-acre site continues to feature signage for the project.
City Council member Lori Boyer, who represents the district, said she met with Fleming last week.
"The last information I have is that they have secured a residential partner where they have a mutually agreeable deal and they have secured a financing partner," Boyer said Wednesday.
Full article: http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=544793
Anyone have news about the Publix project?
I haven't heard anything new...but what a wasted opportunity by every other grocery store out there to come in to the area. I love Publix as much as the next guy, but they don't have much competition in the "high end" grocery world.
I wouldn't mind seeing a fresh market, harris teeter, etc, in open in the area.
Harris Teeter is dead, sold out to KRoger the same day Publix announced two stores in the Charlotte city limits
Quote from: coredumped on April 27, 2015, 05:08:14 PM
I haven't heard anything new...but what a wasted opportunity by every other grocery store out there to come in to the area. I love Publix as much as the next guy, but they don't have much competition in the "high end" grocery world.
I wouldn't mind seeing a fresh market, harris teeter, etc, in open in the area.
Fresh Market is the nearest existing grocery store to this site. There's no way they'll put another one so close. I would LOVE to see a Freshfields Farm, but again the same issue of being too close by since they're not really a chain.
In any case, it's not Publix's fault. I believe they're happy to come, it's the developer who's having trouble financing the residential.
Quote from: ProjectMaximus on April 27, 2015, 11:09:13 PM
Quote from: coredumped on April 27, 2015, 05:08:14 PM
I haven't heard anything new...but what a wasted opportunity by every other grocery store out there to come in to the area. I love Publix as much as the next guy, but they don't have much competition in the "high end" grocery world.
I wouldn't mind seeing a fresh market, harris teeter, etc, in open in the area.
Fresh Market is the nearest existing grocery store to this site. There's no way they'll put another one so close. I would LOVE to see a Freshfields Farm, but again the same issue of being too close by since they're not really a chain.
In any case, it's not Publix's fault. I believe they're happy to come, it's the developer who's having trouble financing the residential.
This is my understanding of the situation.
can't they just build the publix, and do the residential part later?
The East San Marco project appears to be moving forward again:
QuoteEast San Marco under contract; $60M Publix-anchored project could start early next year
By Karen Brune Mathis, Managing Editor
East San Marco residents might see their neighborhood Publix Super Market under development by this time next year as part of a $60 million mixed-use project at one of the area's highest-profile sites.
John Carey, managing member of Jacksonville-based Whitehall Realty Partners LLC, said Tuesday that Whitehall is under contract as the co-developer with another group, but he declined to identify it.
Carey said financing has been arranged and the capital partner will be identified in an announcement expected soon. Financing delayed a deal last year for Whitehall to develop the project.
"Capital for the project has been arranged and is no longer an obstacle to moving forward," Carey said.
He expects to break ground in early 2016. The more than $60 million total cost includes both the retail and the residential elements of the project.
QuoteCouncil enacted ordinances in March 2014 allowing development of 280 apartments, up to 63,000 square feet of commercial space, including the Publix, the existing Wells Fargo bank branch and additional commercial space.
The project includes several parcels. The main site at Hendricks and Atlantic would include up to 46,000 square feet of commercial space, including Publix, and up to 245 multifamily units with a maximum six-story parking garage.
(http://loriboyer.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/east_sm.jpg)
Full article: http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=545428
Don't even play...
I have also heard grumblings that there has been action of some sort on the Jackson Square project. I think the completion of the new interchange at Atlantic is going to bring some change to that area. Site work is already happening where the Daily's is going.
Quote from: thelakelander on May 12, 2015, 11:57:00 PM
The East San Marco project appears to be moving forward again:
Wow. Many years in the making. Of course, I will contain my excitement until this thing goes vertical.
Reading through the link one notices this paragraph:
"Thompson declined to identify the developer until the due diligence is completed, but he said the sale could be completed by early 2016. He identified Carey as the local partner with the residential developer.
"I would like to think if everything goes well, they would be under construction early next year," Thompson said after Regency Centers' annual shareholders meeting. He said completion would be determined by the developer's timeframe."
This finished product is still an "if" and still a long way away from completion.
A project that size could take 18 months to build. Yes, even if it broke ground tomorrow, it would be a while before completion.
18 months sounds a lot better than 13 years
QuoteThe 1721 Atlantic building is east of the East San Marco property, a largely vacant site designed for a retail center, including a Publix Super Market, and apartments.
Carey said in May the group is under contract as the co-developer for East San Marco, designed at Hendricks Avenue and Atlantic Boulevard. He expects to break ground early next year on the $60 million mixed-use East San Marco.
Financing delayed a deal last year for Whitehall to develop the project. He said in May that financing has been arranged and the capital partner also will be identified in an announcement.
Based on a groundbreaking early next year, some of the apartments could be completed in 15-18 months and Publix could open in 2017.
Full article: http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=546032
The greatest tease of the decade... :P
Quote from: ProjectMaximus on August 29, 2015, 11:37:11 AM
The greatest tease of the decade... :P
No kidding. This project has always seemed to me like the biggest no-brainer of a project in all of Jax. Vibrant neighborhood starving for both a grocery store and more updated rental options and there just so happens to be a gigantic vacant lot right off the square at the best possible intersection scenario for this type of development with easy access to downtown and 95. Why has it taken so long to get the ducks in a row? Financing, whatever, I'm guessing there's more to it than that. Somebody not playing nice?
I heard some SM residents complained that it would cause increased traffic in their quaint little community. Well people, you live one mile south of downtown in a city of a million residents, there will be an increase in density eventually. Scale? I could see that since it is proposed to be at least two stories taller than anything around it.
I hope they aren't actually luxury apartments and are just normal priced apartments in the Riverside 220 price range. Would probably draw more young people toward downtown from the Southside. Hopefully some more infill down Atlantic toward 95 would follow. Need to get people back into the neighborhoods that matter.
The original plan featured several hundred units of condos on top of the Publix. Before it broke ground, the real estate market tanked. That's why it's taken so long.
I remember being at a conference with people from Publix and they were very excited about this project. That had to have been almost a decade ago. One of many casualties of the economic recession. I hope it gets built eventually but I am not holding my breath.
http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2015-09-14/story/developer-says-publix-anchored-east-san-marco-retail-residential-complex
Snooze.
Quote from: Rynjny on September 14, 2015, 04:31:57 PM
http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2015-09-14/story/developer-says-publix-anchored-east-san-marco-retail-residential-complex
Hmm, could this be the site of a woodstock-type festival?
Quoteat the corner of Atlantic Boulevard and Hendrix Avenue
So it seems as though there is still no specific word on this. I have connections to Todd Jones (the new CEO of Publix) because I was friends with his daughter in high school. Anyone think it would be worth reaching out to him to see if this thing is actually going to happen?
I think publix is waiting on the developer. That store is going to do crazy sales, so I assume they want to be open ASAP. Whitehall partners and Regency are the ones holding the project up and I believe Whitehall partners has the money they need. Not sure what else would be holding it back, but Todd Jones probably knows as much as anybody about the project.
Whitehall has the money? I thought the last update in 2015 was that they couldn't line up financing. Whoever gets this project off paper will do fairly well on it I would think.
I believe this September 2015 story may have been one of the most recent updates about this project:
QuoteA Times-Union report in April detailed that Whitehall Realty Partners was going to buy the property from Regency Centers and the St. Joe Co., its original developers. It planned to then develop the property with Regency Centers buying back the retail space.
But John Carey of Whitehall said in the spring he was been unable to get funding for his end. The $55 million project required $10 million to $20 million in loans and investment.
Stein said Regency Centers is still involved in the East San Marco project and designs still call for a general Mediterranean architectural style to fit in with the surrounding neighborhood.
But when asked for a timeline of even a beginning of construction, Stein said that's still not certain.
"We're trying to work with getting Publix together and a multi-family developer. ..." Stein said. "We are cautiously optimistic that in the months ahead that we'll be able to finalize those plans and start construction.
"But we still got some lifting to do to make it reality," Stein said.
Once construction begins, it could take over two years to complete.
http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2015-09-14/story/developer-says-publix-anchored-east-san-marco-retail-residential-complex
If this project was just a Publix without the residential component on top of it, it would have been built years ago.
I heard differently from one of the people at whitehall, but that was still 6 months ago. Right now I'm sure they are preoccupied with the recently announced 675,000 sq ft of development in Nocatee right now. I don't know if that means they have passed on East San Marco or it's on the back burner for them.
Does anyone know what they paid for this parcel? Can't find it on COJ.net
After a bit more research it looks like they have $3.8 million into it.
Anybody know any more let me know.
I just drove by a few minutes ago and there is a drilling rig out in the middle of the site putting rod into the ground. I'm assuming they aren't just paying someone to punch holes out there for fun. Hopefully something is going on and they're just keeping quiet. With anof the development popping up in the core I don't see how this isn't moving forward considering (to me at least) it's the best location of anything going right now.
Quote from: acme54321 on January 27, 2016, 03:29:23 PM
I just drove by a few minutes ago and there is a drilling rig out in the middle of the site putting rod into the ground. I'm assuming they aren't just paying someone to punch holes out there for fun. Hopefully something is going on and they're just keeping quiet. With anof the development popping up in the core I don't see how this isn't moving forward considering (to me at least) it's the best location of anything going right now.
There is also a Shell station going in on that space. I believe the construction is for that and not the grocery/condo development.
Another
Quote from: E_Dubya on January 27, 2016, 03:38:43 PM
There is also a Shell station going in on that space. I believe the construction is for that and not the grocery/condo development.
Really? At Atlantic/Hendricks? Blocks from the Daily's/Shell that just opened?
Quote from: E_Dubya on January 27, 2016, 03:38:43 PM
Quote from: acme54321 on January 27, 2016, 03:29:23 PM
I just drove by a few minutes ago and there is a drilling rig out in the middle of the site putting rod into the ground. I'm assuming they aren't just paying someone to punch holes out there for fun. Hopefully something is going on and they're just keeping quiet. With anof the development popping up in the core I don't see how this isn't moving forward considering (to me at least) it's the best location of anything going right now.
There is also a Shell station going in on that space. I believe the construction is for that and not the grocery/condo development.
Pretty sure there isn't, but I have been wrong once before. There is another Shell going in on Hendricks, but a mile or two south of east San Marco.
Quote from: acme54321 on January 27, 2016, 03:29:23 PM
I just drove by a few minutes ago and there is a drilling rig out in the middle of the site putting rod into the ground. I'm assuming they aren't just paying someone to punch holes out there for fun. Hopefully something is going on and they're just keeping quiet. With anof the development popping up in the core I don't see how this isn't moving forward considering (to me at least) it's the best location of anything going right now.
Sounds like soil borings. If so, doesn't necessarily mean anything is a done deal but a good sign of progress on something none the less.
Quote from: CCMjax on January 27, 2016, 08:33:16 PM
Quote from: acme54321 on January 27, 2016, 03:29:23 PM
I just drove by a few minutes ago and there is a drilling rig out in the middle of the site putting rod into the ground. I'm assuming they aren't just paying someone to punch holes out there for fun. Hopefully something is going on and they're just keeping quiet. With anof the development popping up in the core I don't see how this isn't moving forward considering (to me at least) it's the best location of anything going right now.
Sounds like soil borings. If so, doesn't necessarily mean anything is a done deal but a good sign of progress on something none the less.
Yeah, my thoughts exactly when I saw it.
This would not have been done prior to purchase?
Quote from: MusicMan on January 28, 2016, 07:37:08 AM
This would not have been done prior to purchase?
Often times no.
What are they looking for? Contamination? It would certainly suck if they found out the soil could not hold up to the proposed construction.
Quote from: MusicMan on January 28, 2016, 08:27:02 AM
What are they looking for? Contamination? It would certainly suck if they found out the soil could not hold up to the proposed construction.
They could be collecting samples for engineers to determine the load bearing capability of the soil. That would be a good thing.
Call me crazy , but certainly they would do this prior to purchasing the parcel (due diligence...)?
I'll speculate that if they're doing analysis now, it's not a matter of if the lot is build-able or not -- it's probably more about determining an exact design for foundations/drainage whatever.
Quote from: MusicMan on January 28, 2016, 09:20:22 AM
Call me crazy , but certainly they would do this prior to purchasing the parcel (due diligence...)?
The parcel was purchased years ago.
Quote from: blfair on January 28, 2016, 09:27:32 AM
I'll speculate that if they're doing analysis now, it's not a matter of if the lot is build-able or not -- it's probably more about determining an exact design for foundations/drainage whatever.
Exactly. There were buildings there before so there wouldn't be any reason to believe it is really poor soils. The proposed buildings are taller than what was there before I believe, but you determine the design of the foundations based on what you get back from the soils report typically. Sometimes there isn't a soils report performed even though the owner has purchased the property and you have to assume a soil capacity based on similar reports done in the vicinity and have a geotech verify prior to construction, but that is typically only done for smaller projects. There are different ways to approach it.
Quote from: acme54321 on January 27, 2016, 03:48:51 PM
Quote from: E_Dubya on January 27, 2016, 03:38:43 PM
Quote from: acme54321 on January 27, 2016, 03:29:23 PM
I just drove by a few minutes ago and there is a drilling rig out in the middle of the site putting rod into the ground. I'm assuming they aren't just paying someone to punch holes out there for fun. Hopefully something is going on and they're just keeping quiet. With anof the development popping up in the core I don't see how this isn't moving forward considering (to me at least) it's the best location of anything going right now.
There is also a Shell station going in on that space. I believe the construction is for that and not the grocery/condo development.
Pretty sure there isn't, but I have been wrong once before. There is another Shell going in on Hendricks, but a mile or two south of east San Marco.
I must be mistaken. Not the first time, nor will it be the last.
Long speculated San Marco project to move forward..
http://www.firstcoastnews.com/news/local/san-marco/long-speculated-san-marco-project-to-move-forward/94168224
About damn time! Let's hope it's for real this time.
I love how they talk about hidden parking like it's a breakthrough earth-shattering concept (which locally, it kind of is) . . .
As for parking? Thompson says the development will be built in a "stacked" style much like is popping up in Atlanta. The 589 or so parking spots will be "embedded" or underneath. As you drive by, he says, "All you'll see is retail with residential on top." He says this type of construction is more expensive to tackle, but he thinks it's right for the San Marco location.
QuoteZimmermann Boulos, board member of the San Marco Preservation Society, says he has been coming to San Marco for decades and "there's never been a grocery store in San Marco."
Well, not exactly :). There was an A & P grocery store decades ago where the current Bank of America building sits. And, Pic N Save had some sort of stripped down "grocery" section, as I recall.
Quote from: Rynjny on March 21, 2016, 05:42:43 PM
Long speculated San Marco project to move forward..
http://www.firstcoastnews.com/news/local/san-marco/long-speculated-san-marco-project-to-move-forward/94168224
Thanks, Ryan!! Fingers crossed!
Quote from: CCMjax on March 21, 2016, 08:04:15 PM
About damn time! Let's hope it's for real this time.
I love how they talk about hidden parking like it's a breakthrough earth-shattering concept (which locally, it kind of is) . . .
As for parking? Thompson says the development will be built in a "stacked" style much like is popping up in Atlanta. The 589 or so parking spots will be "embedded" or underneath. As you drive by, he says, "All you'll see is retail with residential on top." He says this type of construction is more expensive to tackle, but he thinks it's right for the San Marco location.
So what they're saying is this much needed project went through years of countless starts and stops not because of market conditions or financing but because Jacksonville was not prepared, until now, to have it's mind blown by big city magic fancy-scarf carpark revolution ::)
Quote from: JaxJersey-licious on March 21, 2016, 11:18:48 PM
So what they're saying is this much needed project went through years of countless starts and stops not because of market conditions or financing but because Jacksonville was not prepared, until now, to have it's mind blown by big city magic fancy-scarf carpark revolution ::)
Sort of. Banks considered this an untested development model in the Jacksonville market and were hesitant to provide funding. So the banks were waiting for jax to wrap their heads around a building with both residential and a grocery store and a shared parking garage inside it... MIND BLOWN!!!
Quote from: Captain Zissou on March 22, 2016, 08:47:48 AM
Quote from: JaxJersey-licious on March 21, 2016, 11:18:48 PM
So what they're saying is this much needed project went through years of countless starts and stops not because of market conditions or financing but because Jacksonville was not prepared, until now, to have it's mind blown by big city magic fancy-scarf carpark revolution ::)
Sort of. Banks considered this an untested development model in the Jacksonville market and were hesitant to provide funding. So the banks were waiting for jax to wrap their heads around a building with both residential and a grocery store and a shared parking garage inside it... MIND BLOWN!!!
I don't think it has anything to do with Jax wrapping our heads around the project. Is has to do with whether the investors can hope to make enough money off it to turn a profit. If there was profit in it, or if banks thought there would be, we'd see more of these types of projects whether or not people here had their heads around it.
But at any rate, this is a long time coming. 10 years of delays has made a lot of people skeptical, but if they pull this off it will be a big deal for both San Marco and for development in the urban core.
^The Metropolitan Building in Jax Beach and 1661 Riverside (condos not apartments) were the Jacksonville metro area's first forays into mixed use residential on this scale, but banks were waiting to see the performance of 220 riverside before they committed to the funding for East San Marco. I don't know enough of the intricacies to know why 220 received financing first (after 6 years of delays instead of 10), but nobody wanted to be the first mover due to what they thought was an untested product entering a new market.
I'm interested to see the price points and how well they are received. I'm expecting some of the priciest apartments in the city.
^That's as much a problem with outside investors as anything. Though COJ hasn't exactly been proactive in courting new urban development for a long time. As far as the price points, yes, it's likely to be very expensive. I also don't foresee them having any trouble with takers. Unlike the areas around the Brooklyn developments, property in this area is already pretty steep.
This will be great for San Marco and for the Southbank. The area around here could be absolutely electric in a few years with all the projects. However, I will believe it when I see it ;D
Quote from: Captain Zissou on March 22, 2016, 09:55:35 AM
^The Metropolitan Building in Jax Beach and 1661 Riverside (condos not apartments) were the Jacksonville metro area's first forays into mixed use residential on this scale, but banks were waiting to see the performance of 220 riverside before they committed to the funding for East San Marco. I don't know enough of the intricacies to know why 220 received financing first (after 6 years of delays instead of 10), but nobody wanted to be the first mover due to what they thought was an untested product entering a new market.
I'm interested to see the price points and how well they are received. I'm expecting some of the priciest apartments in the city.
The Daily Record is quoting $1200-$1500 for 1BR, $1800-$2000 for 2BR. I bet that number increases based on demand too.
Don't forget about Jackson Square either, I heard rumblings about behind the scenes work regarding that a while back. I wouldn't be surprised if other big things happen on that stretch of Phillips just south of Atlantic in the coming years. It's the church, motel 6 and spotty houses back there, should be easy pickings for a developer with some money and they new exit straight to I95 will make it prime real estate. How about a Brightline station/TOD? FEC's ROW right there is already like 200' wide since they had a yard there at one point. They wouldn't have to mess around with the city and the union terminal either.
What's going to become of the parcel that had the townhouses on it in the renderings. St Francis' Animal Hospital is moving from right there and I guessed that is because the property sold to someone looking to develop that site. Is this whole area going to transform?
"Spotty houses back there?" I take offense, sir. I own one of those and just put it under contract for $115,000.
I'm just glad they decided against going condo which they would have eventually changed to rentals anyway. Hope it doesn't take away they hype and possible tenants from the Broadstone project by the river. Given the scope and uniquness of this project, Jacksonville may need to get ready for another new concept: Grocery store validated parking.
At the rate they are building apartments in the Southside, I don't think we will ever run out of people willing to move into these places.
Quote from: jcjohnpaint on March 22, 2016, 06:13:43 PM
At the rate they are building apartments in the Southside, I don't think we will ever run out of people willing to move into these places.
I think there is almost a false sense of demand for apartments on the Southside. People keep renting there because there are very few rental options in the core neighborhoods for people who want modern amenities, giving developers more reason to keep building around JTB because it seems like the demand is high, but really people don't know where else to look. I think given options like these new San Marco apartments, Broadstone, and the Brooklyn developments, we will see more young professionals and empty-nesters migrate from the underwhelming JTB corridor to these new core developments.
Quote from: MusicMan on March 22, 2016, 05:07:05 PM
"Spotty houses back there?" I take offense, sir. I own one of those and just put it under contract for $115,000.
Lol I meant spotty as in there are a number of vacant lots.
There are actually a couple of large undeveloped parcels back in there that would be great for a small single family home subdivision. The church over there owns one of them..........
But it looks like, according to the article, the property hasn't even been purchased yet. Just the property's current owner talking about how it was going to be bought by a developer... but it seems like they said the same thing last year.
Is this another press release or is something actually happening with the site this time?
Quote from: Bativac on March 23, 2016, 10:52:51 AM
But it looks like, according to the article, the property hasn't even been purchased yet. Just the property's current owner talking about how it was going to be bought by a developer... but it seems like they said the same thing last year.
Is this another press release or is something actually happening with the site this time?
Regency already owns the property and has for years. The deal they're talking about involves selling the whole thing to the developers, after which Regency would buy back the retail portion. This is farther along than the last (several) announcements but yeah, nothing's sure till the dirt's turning.
On FB I've seen a lot of folks complaining about traffic and parking. Either they aren't reading the article or looking at the site plan, or it's just more backwoods folks trying to hold Jax back.
^People actually prefer the overgrown blighted lot that sits there today, instead of what's proposed? Wow.
Quote from: Captain Zissou on March 23, 2016, 11:39:42 AM
On FB I've seen a lot of folks complaining about traffic and parking. Either they aren't reading the article or looking at the site plan, or it's just more backwoods folks trying to hold Jax back.
I'm sure that more than just "backwoods" folk want to maintain the peaceful and idyllic Jacksonville that they know and love. How dare we have to deal with the change and progress that would improve property values, social standing, regional impressions and overall happiness and convenience here?
Now where is that Sarcasm font when you need it? ;)
Quote from: Captain Zissou on March 23, 2016, 11:39:42 AM
On FB I've seen a lot of folks complaining about traffic and parking. Either they aren't reading the article or looking at the site plan, or it's just more backwoods folks trying to hold Jax back.
I would say to those people, "Look you live 1 mile from downtown in a city of about a million people. Go to other thriving neighborhoods 1 mile from downtown in thriving cities of the same size and see what you find. You live in a part of town where more compact development is the natural progression of development. Embrace it or move."
Traffic will certainly increase but the good thing about this site is there are many ways and many directions to come and go.
Quote from: thelakelander on March 23, 2016, 11:48:31 AM
^People actually prefer the overgrown blighted lot that sits there today, instead of what's proposed? Wow.
I've heard the traffic thing from a few people. Those I've talked to that think that way would prefer just Publix without the apartments. One of my neighbors is worried about what it will do to our "quiet" neighborhood, that has trains running through it almost every hour.
Typical fear of the unknown. Once it's built the only thing that will really change is foot trafic and better appearance. Traffic will be up some but my guess is that it would be fairly inappreciable. I agree, deal with it or move. You live in the urban core for christ sake!
The complaints about traffic an parking are fair, but the issues are usually short lived in that area.
7:45 am until 9am, and 4 pm until 6pm or so. Not sure what you can expect in a popular Historic neighborhood with relatively smaller streets.
The lot is not overgrown, if you are looking at it. They have kept it cut and fairly neat.
^The other thing that is misunderstood is that the parking is "Wrapped" by the retail and residential. People are thinking that the block itself is chock-full of residences and shops, which isn't true.
It's an uncommon type of development for Jacksonville so people aren't used to it.
Quote from: MusicMan on March 23, 2016, 12:50:16 PM
The complaints about traffic an parking are fair, but the issues are usually short lived in that area.
7:45 am until 9am, and 4 pm until 6pm or so. Not sure what you can expect in a popular Historic neighborhood with relatively smaller streets.
Most people going to work will exit the garage onto Alford Place, make a left onto Mango Place, and then turn right on Atlantic to get to the 95 ramps (as this won't be finished until 2018). Atlantic has the capacity to handle 200 extra cars over a 2 hour span. The publix parking may overflow the garage, but they can use the Wells Fargo lot after hours or use alford & mango like Matthew's is already doing for their valet parking.
The Skyway connection will also alleviate parking :D
Quote from: ProjectMaximus on March 23, 2016, 02:10:06 PM
The Skyway connection will also alleviate parking :D
I just can't imagine the city, JTA, or FDOT ever spending the money on an extension of the Skyway down this far...
Quote from: FlaBoy on March 24, 2016, 05:40:26 PM
Quote from: ProjectMaximus on March 23, 2016, 02:10:06 PM
The Skyway connection will also alleviate parking :D
I just can't imagine the city, JTA, or FDOT ever spending the money on an extension of the Skyway down this far...
It's actually been talked about for a while, both by JTA and the neighborhood. I've heard we might could set up a TIF district where local businesses' taxes would go directly for that kind of thing. It would be pretty cool.
Quote from: Tacachale on March 24, 2016, 05:46:17 PM
Quote from: FlaBoy on March 24, 2016, 05:40:26 PM
Quote from: ProjectMaximus on March 23, 2016, 02:10:06 PM
The Skyway connection will also alleviate parking :D
I just can't imagine the city, JTA, or FDOT ever spending the money on an extension of the Skyway down this far...
It's actually been talked about for a while, both by JTA and the neighborhood. I've heard we might could set up a TIF district where local businesses' taxes would go directly for that kind of thing. It would be pretty cool.
It's been talked about but not seriously. They can't even get the money to extend it .1 miles into Brooklyn.
I'm excited about the new Publix. I hope that the businesses in San Marco Square will see a good increase in business and more events scheduled in the square. If they extend the Skyway (after retro fitting to new cars) were would the line run? from King to Atlantic then up towards the square? Would there be a station? I'd like to see the Skyway transformed into something like the Muni street cars in San Francisco. You don't need a huge station to board, you can present your card or cash when you board.
^The conceptual design was to have it cross the FEC rail line, then drop essentially at Atlantic Blvd and the FEC line.
Quote from: JackJack on March 25, 2016, 07:32:31 AM
I'm excited about the new Publix. I hope that the businesses in San Marco Square will see a good increase in business and more events scheduled in the square. If they extend the Skyway (after retro fitting to new cars) were would the line run? from King to Atlantic then up towards the square? Would there be a station? I'd like to see the Skyway transformed into something like the Muni street cars in San Francisco. You don't need a huge station to board, you can present your card or cash when you board.
Yeah, the logic behind a skyway extension is that anything at-grade wouldnt be able to cross the FEC railroad tracks. So the skyway is the most convenient way to provide a transit connection into that portion of San Marco. As Steve said, the simplest thing would be to bring it down after crossing the rail line (and effectively ending any possibility of extension - unless JTA retrofits the skyway for streetcar) and end it right there at the intersection of the railroad and Atlantic. Huge stations are pretty much needed when you're up in the air...if at-grade then the stop could be as you described. But hopefully in the future when there's passenger rail coming down the FEC tracks there would be a transfer station built right there.
Quote from: MusicMan on March 22, 2016, 05:07:05 PM
"Spotty houses back there?" I take offense, sir. I own one of those and just put it under contract for $115,000.
If you have the resources, I would rent that place out for the next couple of years and see what's cracking around there. I reckon you'll pocket an extra $25k plus two years of rent....
Quote from: acme54321 on March 22, 2016, 01:48:10 PM
Don't forget about Jackson Square either, I heard rumblings about behind the scenes work regarding that a while back. I wouldn't be surprised if other big things happen on that stretch of Phillips just south of Atlantic in the coming years. It's the church, motel 6 and spotty houses back there, should be easy pickings for a developer with some money and they new exit straight to I95 will make it prime real estate. How about a Brightline station/TOD? FEC's ROW right there is already like 200' wide since they had a yard there at one point. They wouldn't have to mess around with the city and the union terminal either.
Better pray there is NEVER a Brightline station in the Southbank. Brightline is a very limited, higher speed, inter-city, passenger operation. They are NOT commuter rail and frankly I even have questions about a St. Augustine stop. Most likely:
Jacksonville
St. Augustine ??
Daytona
Cocoa
Ft. Pierce +/- ??
West Palm
Ft. Lauderdale
Miami
If the Skyway was extended and when Amtrak joins the AAF/BRIGHTLINE trackage (and they will pending infrastructure completion) then there can be a Southbank intercity stop via Amtrak trains, the BRIGHTLINE trains will blow right through hopefully to JAX TERMINAL/JRTC/PRIME. Toss in JTA with very limited commuter rail service 4-6 daily trips to St. Augustine and your San Marco multimodal Skyway station would be served by:
Amtrak - national intercity
JTA - Skyway
JTA - First Coast Flyer
JTA - commuter Rail