Hi gang. I'm pretty new here and want say how much I have been enjoying reading Metro Jax.
This past Sunday I spent the day riding my bike around Springfield enjoying the beauty of it and taking pictures. I visit friends often in Springfield from my home in Riverside via a route that never takes me down Main St.
This past Sunday while Riding around I was stunned at the state of Main St.. I had to take a couple of pictures and post my views to Bike Jax.
http://bikejax.blogspot.com/2008/02/death-of-springfields-resurgence.html
The medians limiting access definately are another negative that businesses on Main Street will have to overcome. However, from what I understand, all even numbered streets will have median cuts from 4th up to 12th. As for no crosswalks, it appears that everyone laid down and let FDOT do what they wanted to speed traffic up, as opposed to slowing it down and making it more liveable, pedestrian and bike-friendly.
They love to put the medians in Springfield rip them out, put them in rip them out and so on.
I think there is discussion ongoing about making crosswalks in the existing island now, and I believe the new stuff will include it.
Personally, I am glad they are there, so that eventually we can have that space for trolleys again.... :-)
Once we overcome the fact that there are no rail transit lines running in the middle of state highways in Florida, I don't think the island is wide enough for duel streetcar lines. Instead, tracks would have to be installed in the inside lanes of Main Street and stops constructed in the medians.
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-2180-img_33147.jpg)
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-2185-unionstation3.jpg)
I haven't read Bike's blog yet, but I LOL when I saw that you'd been riding around there on Sunday...my husband and I were there too! We too, were completely shocked at the state of the area. There were 55 gallon drums sitting to rust in the corner of Confederate park. The railings were rusted out and missing. The sidewalks were overgrown, and there were locked gates at the foot of bridges. Driving down Main St., as well as Pearl, and 8th streets, we had an overwhelming sense of danger. Yes, there were people out on their porches every 10th house or so, and some of them looked like they were enjoying the day and not just standing around looking for a 'mark' of sorts, though those were few and far between.
What we took back with us was the thought of how could anyone feel safe living there. With groups of people drinking out of brown paper bags, huddled on the street corner, staring at you as you drive by and yelling things (things we didn't stick around long enough to actually comprehend), how could you leave your home to do anything? We also noted that with the exception of a group of teenagers walking out of one of the parks (headed back to downtown), we saw no one walking, jogging, going into or out of shops as you would see in various other parts of Jacksonville. Certainly not any one with young children...thank goodness. The only people in the heart of Springfield walking around were obviously up to no good (see the brown-baggers comment above). It really saddened me, especially when you look at the houses that have been restored...and the ones that haven't, that have so much potential and beauty under their crappy asbestos siding. One can definitely see that Springfield was a very elite place to live at one point in history.
I also went by the Klutho house (pictures of which are in the Springfield photo tour here), and was surprised to see that all the lower windows and doors had iron security bars over them. My husband remarked about the wicker furniture on the front porch, saying, "I wonder how many times the owners have walked out in the morning to find someone sleeping there?" Judging from the bottle of liquor that was sitting on top of the brick fencepost, my guess would be, often. :(
Quote from: second_pancake on February 19, 2008, 10:16:10 AM
I haven't read Bike's blog yet, but I LOL when I saw that you'd been riding around there on Sunday...my husband and I were there too! We too, were completely shocked at the state of the area. There were 55 gallon drums sitting to rust in the corner of Confederate park. The railings were rusted out and missing. The sidewalks were overgrown, and there were locked gates at the foot of bridges. Driving down Main St., as well as Pearl, and 8th streets, we had an overwhelming sense of danger. Yes, there were people out on their porches every 10th house or so, and some of them looked like they were enjoying the day and not just standing around looking for a 'mark' of sorts, though those were few and far between.
What we took back with us was the thought of how could anyone feel safe living there. With groups of people drinking out of brown paper bags, huddled on the street corner, staring at you as you drive by and yelling things (things we didn't stick around long enough to actually comprehend), how could you leave your home to do anything? We also noted that with the exception of a group of teenagers walking out of one of the parks (headed back to downtown), we saw no one walking, jogging, going into or out of shops as you would see in various other parts of Jacksonville. Certainly not any one with young children...thank goodness. The only people in the heart of Springfield walking around were obviously up to no good (see the brown-baggers comment above). It really saddened me, especially when you look at the houses that have been restored...and the ones that haven't, that have so much potential and beauty under their crappy asbestos siding. One can definitely see that Springfield was a very elite place to live at one point in history.
I also went by the Klutho house (pictures of which are in the Springfield photo tour here), and was surprised to see that all the lower windows and doors had iron security bars over them. My husband remarked about the wicker furniture on the front porch, saying, "I wonder how many times the owners have walked out in the morning to find someone sleeping there?" Judging from the bottle of liquor that was sitting on top of the brick fencepost, my guess would be, often. :(
Oh God, I just now realized how unsafe I am living in Springfield. What am I doing enjoying living in this neighborhood amongst these chaotic barbaric conditions..
;) ;)
Joe,
Maybe you're used to seeing what I saw. Alot of people that have posted here have mentioned having lived in New York city and such...I haven't. While the homeless don't bother me that much, and the occasional drunk or crazy person I can ignore, I would have a hard time living next to a house that was condemned by the city, or trying to walk to the corner store for a pop and being greeting by 10 large men, dressed in winter coats while it's 80 degrees outside, drinking out of paper bags, and hollering at me. That's just wrong.
When I lived in Fernandina Beach, there was a crazy guy that I called "The Walker", that did nothing but walk in a loop through downtown and past my house...every day, all day. He stole money out of a tip jar at the coffee shop once. He also sat on my front porch and insisted that he lived there. That didn't scare me. Also, one morning, I walked outside to find a guy sleeping under my truck in my driveway. He had no shirt, no shoes and had no idea where he was (clearly someone who was out drinking the night before), and his face was pounded pretty good. That didn't scare me. Springfield scares the hell out of me.
If you don't think it's dangerous or frightening, then good for you, you are a fearless warrior and I'm glad there are people like you out there trying to make things better. As for me, a downtown loft, or a home in San Marco, Riverside, or Avondale will do just fine.
When my parents lived here in the early 70s, they used to attend the old Westside Church of Christ location on the corner of Laura & 19th. As a kid we used to come and visit their friends in the area quite often during the mid-to-late 1980s. Springfield is 100 times better than it was back in those days.
For those who are expecting Riverside/San Marco-like conditions, I guess you'll be shocked, but Springfield is progressing along quite well and those neighborhoods never dropped to level that Springfield did in the a few decades ago. Its state today, is pretty similar to what Savannah's Victorian District was around five years ago. Its the place to be if your an urban pioneer, value cultural diversity, or looking for an affordable urban neighborhood within walking distance of downtown. How the city embraces the Hogans Creek park system and the Main Street corridor will be the final acts that push it over the top, in terms of vibrancy.
Quote from: second_pancake on February 19, 2008, 10:37:48 AM
Joe,
Maybe you're used to seeing what I saw. Alot of people that have posted here have mentioned having lived in New York city and such...I haven't. While the homeless don't bother me that much, and the occasional drunk or crazy person I can ignore, I would have a hard time living next to a house that was condemned by the city, or trying to walk to the corner store for a pop and being greeting by 10 large men, dressed in winter coats while it's 80 degrees outside, drinking out of paper bags, and hollering at me. That's just wrong.
When I lived in Fernandina Beach, there was a crazy guy that I called "The Walker", that did nothing but walk in a loop through downtown and past my house...every day, all day. He stole money out of a tip jar at the coffee shop once. He also sat on my front porch and insisted that he lived there. That didn't scare me. Also, one morning, I walked outside to find a guy sleeping under my truck in my driveway. He had no shirt, no shoes and had no idea where he was (clearly someone who was out drinking the night before), and his face was pounded pretty good. That didn't scare me. Springfield scares the hell out of me.
If you don't think it's dangerous or frightening, then good for you, you are a fearless warrior and I'm glad there are people like you out there trying to make things better. As for me, a downtown loft, or a home in San Marco, Riverside, or Avondale will do just fine.
Well, then it's definitely not a good idea to ride around a bicycle in a neighborhood that scares the hell out of you...riding a bike in dangerous enough in any Jacksonville neighborhood already. ;)
I'm not blind to the troubles of the neighborhood, but I've yet to have the feeling of the intense fear that you speak of. Like any area, you have to know the surroundings and where you may want to shy away from....and I could see where an "outsider" may have an uneasy feeling in certain areas of Springfield.
Joe, we were in our car, not bikes. I'm curious to know what it's really like to live there. I mean, all honesty, no sugar-coating or anything like that. What are the things you have to deal with on a daily basis and how are they addressed? Do you walk/ride your bike around town? If so, which parts do you stay away from and why?
Lake, you're right about the parks. They were NOT inviting at all! The city has got to make them a priority if we're ever to see further positive activity in that area.
Good comments Joe.
Pancake, No, we are probably not as pristene as the no doubt utopia like suburbs, but all of the things you described either have and explination, or are harmless.
The "rusted drums" are from ground water testing that is being conducted in the Confederate Park. That is why that bridge is closed off, and the south part of the park is unaccessible.
The sidewalks havent been replaced because the DEP wont let the city replace them. There is contamination from an old coal plant under the ground, and everything near the creek and pond in that area has a no-dig order. We have tried time and again to get them replaced, only to be rebuffed.
The people that hang out in that area do so because nobody really lives in that area, and they are pretty much left alone. We are working to change that. The rampant prostitution and homeless feedings of 5 years ago are almost completely gone, though they still occur. And while the guys with the beers in the paper bags annoy me because I end up picking them up in my yard from time to time, they are completely harmless. Would I prefer they go away? Sure, but they certainly dont make me feel threatened.
I dont know what ruffians you saw that made you so afraid. I was working in my yard most of the day. I saw all of my neighbors out and about working thier yards, or playing with their children, I saw another of my neighbors kids going up and down the street on skate boards. I spoke to two couples who came by looking at the house next door. I met a couple of people out walking around. A couple on two vespa style scooters checking the neighborhood out.
Perhaps its a case of seeing what we want to see. I want to see a happy, fun, thriving, diverse community, and take the irritations with a grain of salt. You see something different.
That said, I dont see where someone with a beer in a paper bag is all that scary though?
Sorry to hear about that, but I don't think any neighborhood in the city is completely safe. I currently live in the Southside and in the time I've been here, I've had a car stolen (skating rink at Philips & Emerson) and an apartment broken into (Southside Blvd, between Baymeadows and Deerwood Park Blvd). On top of that, there have been a rash of break-ins at my condo complex (Southside, near Avenues Mall) in the past few months. I work in Ponte Vedra and believe it or not, there's a decent number of paper bag carrying vagrants in the area as well. They just are harder to see when you're driving down AIA at 50 mph.
QuoteI dont know what ruffians you saw that made you so afraid. I was working in my yard most of the day. I saw all of my neighbors out and about working thier yards, or playing with their children, I saw another of my neighbors kids going up and down the street on skate boards. I spoke to two couples who came by looking at the house next door. I met a couple of people out walking around. A couple on two vespa style scooters checking the neighborhood out.
Perhaps its a case of seeing what we want to see. I want to see a happy, fun, thriving, diverse community, and take the irritations with a grain of salt. You see something different.
I would have loved to drive through your part of the neighborhood...seriously. And to address your comment of seeing what "we want to see", I am a very positive, open-minded person. I have gotten into several debates with people who have criticized Springfield, Riverside, Downtown, or any other urban areas without having spent time there. I really, truly, wanted to see a semi-vibrant community with people working hard on their houses, removed burgular bars from windows, riding their bikes, hanging out drinking a beer with one another on their front porch...that sort of thing. I didn't see that. I looked VERY hard. I had my husband drive down street after street despite his concern and telling me over and over, "this doesn't feel like a good idea." I mapped out the areas of 'concern' using crime statistics I found online. I told him the areas that we would avoid and the areas that seemed like they were doing well, based on that information, housing sales, and housing prices. Still, I did not see what I wanted to see nor what I expected to see.
I would like for someone to give me more information about living in Springfield, as my list of pros and cons shows the cons far outweighing the pros.
I am by no means a suburbanite, so if I think it's a very questionable area, just think how hard it would be to get the average person to move there.
Btw, the "ruffians" were at the corner of Main and 9th. We drove up a way to the RR tracks and then turned around as I had no intentions of crossing the tracks and finding myself between them and MLK. Our tour consisted of visiting Main, Liberty, Walnut, Hubbard, Laura, Silver streets, with turns down 9th, 7th, 3rd and 1st streets. Didn't see the Vespas, the children, or the people talking. I saw one older lady sweeping off her front porch, two young guys get out of their truck with some equipment they were using to work on their house, and some teenagers exiting Confederate park. That's it. I saw many, many more people standing around staring and not doing anything...or publicly drinking. I thought I saw a group of guys looking like they might be getting ready to play basketball (it was in a run-down house directly next to a house that was very well restored), but upon closer inspection, they didn't have a ball in their hands and were just 'hanging out' looking like they were waiting on someone or something. Innocent I'm sure, but to an outsider looking in, it doesn't seem so innocent. Just like those oil drums for water testing. There were no signs indicating that this is the city dollars at work to build a better environment, 'please pardon our dust while we work to restore your city parks', nothing like that, just a whole lot of chains, locks and oil drums.
QuoteI don't think any neighborhood in the city is completely safe. I currently live in the Southside and in the time I've been here, I've had a car stolen (skating rink at Philips & Emerson) and an apartment broken into (Southside Blvd, between Baymeadows and Deerwood Park Blvd). On top of that, there have been a rash of break-ins at my condo complex (Southside, near Avenues Mall) in the past few months.
Lake, I live in Baymeadows and I concur. There are places in and around my own neighborhood that I won't go after dark. I used to jog around the golf course but I haven't done that lately because more and more of the undesireables have been hanging out there. There are shopping carts, bags of clothing, crack pipes, you name it back in the wooded areas. Last weekend, my husband, the kids and I, got the wonderful opportunity to witness a man standing by his son as he proceeded to pee onto the main road going into our neighborhood...in broad daylight, in front of many other people. If that doesnt' scream 'Quality' I don't know what does ::) I guess my point is, while there is an element of danger anywhere, if the danger is greater in one part of town versus another, why would you subject yourself to it? I know just by getting on my bike to ride, I risk getting seriously injured, but that risk is highly increased by riding in places that have no bike lanes, no shoulder, and higher speed limits, so I avoid them. To me, living in Springfield would be the equivalent of riding without my helmet down interstate 95 at 1:00am on Saturday.
I know it will get better with time as long as the city is supportive of the efforts that do live there. The extended median, lack of police presence, and crappy looking parks isn't helping.
We would love to have you come visit. I live on Laura St, and while I certainly cannot claim its pristine (there are undone houses, just like on other streets). we very much enjoy our little slice of the neighborhood.
Come check out a first friday some time. The first friday of every month someone in the community hosts a party. They vary in size from informal house parties, to a full on, blocking of streets block party.
I think my block will be hosting one on the first friday of may. We had a keg, three different drink and food stations, and a DJ Triclops and his crew in the middle of Laura St throwing down some jams.
I agree with you about the parks. Its been a sore spot for me for a while, but there are things afoot, I just dont know how quickly they are going to happen. Fixing them means getting funding from the city, state and feds, and while there are people working on getting that, its never very fast. I enjoy the parks. Klutho park, while needing work, is quite tranquil. and with the beautiful fountain Chris Farley and the Womans Club had restored, there are some things to see.
I will send you a PM about the time and location of the next first friday. You should come check it out.
Sunday, my wife & mother in law was walking my son around the neighborhood and ran into a couple also walking their infant child and new puppy. I was outside getting some fishing gear ready to go out on the boat and enjoying the beautiful weather we had that day. In doing so, I witnessed many people in the neighborhood, a group of teenagers and their dad skateboarding (atleast the father was) on my street. I am on the East side, 6th street to be exact.
As for feeling safe, I feel as safe in Springfield as I did when I lived near the water in Arlington, actually more so. In fact, something that makes this thread ironic, my mother in-law (which was very skeptic about us moving here a couple of years back) is visiting and after their walk Sunday, came back to say she would love to live in our neighborhood. For the past 2 weeks, she's been at the house during the day while we are at work and she's told us a number of times how nice and quiet it is on our street. She sits on the front porch and reads a book when the weather permits. I know my neighbors and many that are no where even near me in the neighborhood, which adds to the sense of safety that I feel here. I love living here. The only issue i've had is termites and litter. IF I have someone walking down the road that is obviously out of place, I keep an eye on them, but they've always been harmless and I've never felt scared for myself or my family in this neighborhood.
By the way, going past the tracks isn't that bad either. In fact, if you go past even MLK about 40 blocks, you will get closer to the river and the area is pretty nice down there too.
That would be GREAT, DTP! Especially since I have the first Friday of each month off work ;D
You could also come check out any open houses or an event like Tony had at 1951 lofts on Saturday. I'm sure there will be some events in Springfield coming up with the weather getting warmer as well (ie.. Dog Days).
Pancake,
come to the chili cook-off in March. There should be a pretty good group of neighborhood types there.
http://sparcouncil.org/Mambo/content/view/125/2/
I also live in Springfield....on Walnut near 6th....and I find it to be a delightful neighborhood. Most weekends, you'll find the neighbors out working in their yards, and some on their homes. There's places in progress, two on my block alone are in the process of being restored...one almost complete.
As for feeling safe, I do. I walk my dogs both at night and in the early hours of the morning, before it's light out. I've not had a problem in years...as the neighborhood continues to improve. In fact at night, it's basically so quiet on this street, with the exception of traffic driving past.
Yes, on 8th street and along Main, you're more likely to see those brown bag drinkers...but usually not in the residential areas...where they may walk by, but rarely are they hanging out anywhere.
I also ride my bike throughout the neighborhood and have never had a problem. The area has changed so much in the 10+ years I've lived here and it continues to change. The situation with Main street will not really improve much until the construction is complete and the businesses start to move in.
While I don't live in Springfield (my cousin/roomate opposed to it when we were apartment hunting), I would love to someday. I browse the Springfield forum on occasion and ride through the neighborhood when I have some free time. I have also seen people out walking their dogs and during the summer when I looked at a couple of places for rent, I spoke to some who already lived there and they loved the area. From what I've seen/read is that many occupants of that area work on knowing their neighbors and improving the neighborhood as a whole, which is a far cry from what I've experienced in the Southside area. I live in an apartment complex and hardly anyone knows each other not to mention crime is becoming more rampant here also!!
When I bring up the subject of moving there, family members of mine who live in Fleming Island and Middleburg oppose it and try to tout crime as the reason but I think that people who do so fail to realize that crime is EVERYWHERE and don't give those who live there (Springfield) the credit they deserve for helping to restore such a beautiful neighborhood. Mark my words- with continuing effort and patience, Springfield is going to be the new "it" place of Jacksonville. As for me- I plan on starting to attend as many gatherings as I can there and moving in one day!!
This area used to be a bad area...but that's changed drastically over the past 5-10 years. Most of what's reported as happening in Springfield, isn't...it's further up Main and over behind Shands, which is not Springfield. We actually a good deal less crime than other areas of the city.
For those of us who know the history of Springfield, we all know that dramatic improvements have been made over the last ten years. The average citizen driving though Springfield on 8th St or Main has bad impressions, I can surely understand how they percieve it as negative. While many things have improved, we still have a ways to go. Sometimes I get depresssed or upset at the things I see and I have lived there for over three years now. Since buying my house in 3rd St, I have noticed lots of seedy activity along 1st St near Ionia and Walnut St and yesterday just two blocks from me there was a police involved shooting. Many people say to me I dont know how you live in that neighborhood. I just smile and say I am fighting a war....to save an historic neighborhhod. Between protecting my property, keeping the garbage out of my yard and along the sidewalk...it's an everyday battle. I hope that someday, we will finally arrive with retail and most of the thugs and other streethangers greatly diminished.
One of the main problems with these people roaming the area, is that we're so close to downtown and we get a great many of the vagrants. The ones who could care less about how hard we've worked to improve the area, how hard we work to keep it clean and protect our property and belongings...
jbm: And this is why we need to get a handle on the "homeless" problem downtown. Specifically, the drug users and brown bag drinkers have no place walking the streets downtown, Springfield or anywhere else. They need to be in jail. Aggressive policing and prosecution is the answer. Start charging some of the habitual misdemeanor offenders downtown felonies for repeatedly breaking the law and give them 5 years in prison. I guarantee you things would shape up quick once word got out in the bum community that the authorities were serious about stopping this nonsense.
Of course, all of this would take a concerted effort from the Sheriff, the State Attorney and the Mayor which is about as likely under current leadership as pigs flying. :-\
I couldn't agree with you more!
Man. I leave you guy and gals alone for a few days and see what's happened. I post a simple "how I feel that the traffic flow on Main St. will inhibit retail development and pedestrian use of it". And you guys (and gals) turn it into a "how unsafe Springfield is". :D
Second_Pancake you asked for Pros as to why live here. I hope this helps
As I stated in the post on the Bike Jax Blog, I live in Riverside. I hear all the time from from friends, family, and random burbers, "how unsafe Riverside, Springfield, Downtown are". My usual response is, "yes, it is. never, ever consider moving here. Stay in your 3 bedroom 2 bath stucco ranch that looks just like other 200 houses in your cul-de-sac community."
When asked by those same burbers, why I enjoy living where I do. I tell them, "there are many reasons." First and foremost, because I am an individual. As an artist, I like to think of myself as a creative, independent and intelligent person. And as such, I want my home and neighborhood to reflect that.
Which brings me to why I chose life in Riverside & Springfield. The houses are exactly as I hope I am. Independent, creative and intelligent in design. One of my favorite things of living in these neighborhoods is when talking with someone you've just met that also lives here. You ask where they live. No need for an address. They will reply with a street and block number. You say, "oh yah. which house?" And they reply with maybe a color, but mostly with an architectural detail and you know instantly which house is theirs.
That's not going to happen in the burbs, where the only difference is that the floor plan is flopped from one to the next.
I mentioned above about talking with someone you've just met. That happens a lot around here. You are always meeting new people here. It's called community. We live in a area where you meet your neighbors when out walking, biking, shopping and dining. The yards here are small for that reason. You'd never get a big yard taken care of with people stopping to chat as they walk by. And as DowntownParks mentioned, there are house parties, block parties, walking cocktail parties, cookouts, art shows, concerts, etc happening here in Riverside, Springfield and Downtown all the time.
And the people you meet. (pardon me while I swoon) It was once told to me by a fellow Riverside'r, "we are the keepers of Jacksonville's history".
Never a truer statement was ever spoken. Pancake, I defy you to find anyone outside of Riverside and Springfield that care more for this city, it's history and it's future. The majority here are walking encyclopedias of Jacksonville and it's past. And are also actively involved in what's being done for it's future. It's the people of these communities pancake, that make life in Jacksonville livable for me.
You mentioned that your husband wondered about the Klutho house "how many times the owners have walked out in the morning to find someone sleeping there?" Since the owners of the Klutho house are one of my best friends. I will tell you, never. You are more likely to find someone from the burbs trying to peek in the windows than anything. I know when I am old and grey that some of my best memories of life in Jacksonville will be of conversations held in and around that wicker furniture on that porch.
Because I have lived, worked and traveled throughout this country and abroad. I have a pretty big comfort zone in an urban environment. I have never felt unsafe in the slightest anywhere in Riverside, Springfield or downtown at any hour of the day. I have a mantra that seems to work for me. "If you act like a victim. You become a victim."
Those "brown bags" as they were described are harmless. They are a part of every urban core in every city on the planet. And I'll grant you, not an attractive part. But most importantly they are diversity. And diversity to me is a good thing. Diversity is the the thing that really makes Riverside and Springfield so great. If you don't like one block. Go on to the next. It will be completely different from the previous in it's look, feel and ethnic mix.
For me, hell is life in a place called Celebration.
Pancake, I will warn you now. That if you take Downtownparks up on his offer and spend some time here and get to know the people. You'll be looking for a realestate agent for your current home. Welcome to individuality and diversity.
QuoteNever a truer statement was ever spoken. Pancake, I defy you to find anyone outside of Riverside and Springfield that care more for this city, it's history and it's future. The majority here are walking encyclopedias of Jacksonville and it's past. And are also actively involved in what's being done for it's future. It's the people of these communities pancake, that make life in Jacksonville livable for me.
True, my friend...so true! It's funny how you also mentioned that when asked where we live, we give a street/block and the style of the house...because we're all familiar with the various styles, and there's such a wide range of them here. Springfield is a wonderful area (as is Riverside) where it's actually a neighborhood and we all tend to know one another.
We have people riding through our area all the time, often they'll stop to talk and the neighbors here will actually stop what we're doing and chat with them...you don't find that much anymore these days.
Wow. Pretty spot on Bike. Nice work.
Whoa, whoa, whoa...bikejax. You're talking to me as if I have never lived in Riverside or don't understand why people would live there or any other historical community and that's not the case. I have a great home in Riverside and if it weren't for the fact that we need an extra 400 sq ft. just for our bikes, we'd be living there right now. I didn't choose to live where I live (Bay-Ghettos). I chose to live in Riverside. And before that, I chose to live in Fernandina Beach, 3 blocks from downtown in the historic district. I'm right there with you on why to live in a historic area, that's not my issue. I'm trying to figure out the families that live in Springfield. Not the single guys who have no sense of fear and welcome challenges by walking around town at all hours of the night practically inviting trouble just so they can keep the neighborhood safe. I'm talking about couples with small children.
Almost everyone on this thread has admitted, while it's better, it's still not as safe as other areas (San Marco, Riverside, Ortega, etc.), and statistics show that more violent crimes resulting in fatalities occur in and around Springfield than anywhere else in Jax. So, I was asking why anyone who wasn't in the position to be an urban pioneer (as defined in the previous paragraph) would live there?
Btw, I've explored Springfield through every single phase of restoration it's gone through, and while there have been some aesthetic improvements, it is still not some place I would feel comfortable having my 8 and 12 year old walking around on the sidewalk after dark to a friend's house...block parties or no block parties. And yes, there are places like that in Riverside too, but you don't hear about shooting deaths every other day taking place there.
My house is directly next to the Roosevelt on ramp just around the corner from Murray Hill in the technically classified Avondale area (though it's only a street away from being Riverside). I lived there by myself, a single white girl in her 20's at the time, walked to MH and Five Points regularly during the day and at night. Though it would get noisy at times, I'd sit on my front porch and watch people walk by and never once did I feel threatened or scared.
I don't know, maybe it's just me. I just want my life to be peaceful and calm. I don't want to be a "pioneer" or "urban frontiersman" and I certainly don't want every day of what's left of my youth to be spent fighting a battle so when I'm old and gray I can smile. I'll leave that up to you guys and when all the dust has settled, then I'll come in and buy a house at an inflated price and be thankful for all the people that made it happen ;D
Quote from: second_pancake on February 25, 2008, 08:54:43 AM
statistics show that more violent crimes resulting in fatalities occur in and around Springfield than anywhere else in Jax.....shooting deaths every other day taking place there.
Hey Pancake, I dont think my neighborhood is for everyone, but you just stated two complete and totally inaccurate pieces of information.
In the last year we have had two shootings, one was last week with a cop shooting a drug dealer, before that is was last summer, with druggie on druggie crime.
I would be curious to see these "facts" you stated. I'm not attacking, and I am not suggesting everyone move to Springfield, but I am very tired of the misinformation.
Don't forget DTparks, everything North of the River is Springfield.
That is the common misconception, at least.
http://maps2.coj.net/crimestatsdiscl.asp (http://maps2.coj.net/crimestatsdiscl.asp)
I got the information from the site above. If you use Main Street as a reference and then just work your way up and around Springfield, you'll see that the assaults and battery offenses increase as you go East of Main and further north up Main toward the RR tracks. The system defaults to a time period of 6 months reporting, but I used 08-25/2006 as my begin date and today's date as my end date.
In the quandrant East of Walnut and North of 6th, during this time period there were 110 assaults and battery and 1 murder. I would assume that any shooting NOT resulting in death would fall under the assault and battery, but I may be wrong. I didn't see a section for attempted murder.
I've run comparisons on the statistical data found for Springfield versus other major areas of Jax (Westside, Southside, Orange Park, West of Intracoastal, etc. (they didn't have any Beaches info) and the violent crimes in and around Springfield (I'm talking the area that is surrounding by MLK) outweigh those in any of the other areas. Now, sex crimes are a different story. You'll find more lewd sex crimes occuring in areas that most people think are 'safe.' Go figure.
Quote from: downtownparks on February 25, 2008, 09:05:07 AM
Quote from: second_pancake on February 25, 2008, 08:54:43 AM
statistics show that more violent crimes resulting in fatalities occur in and around Springfield than anywhere else in Jax.....shooting deaths every other day taking place there.
Hey Pancake, I dont think my neighborhood is for everyone, but you just stated two complete and totally inaccurate pieces of information.
In the last year we have had two shootings, one was last week with a cop shooting a drug dealer, before that is was last summer, with druggie on druggie crime.
I would be curious to see these "facts" you stated. I'm not attacking, and I am not suggesting everyone move to Springfield, but I am very tired of the misinformation.
Just so we're clear, I did say "hear" about shootings every other day, which while the "every other day" part is an exageration, to say every week is not far fetched at all. When I turn on my local news, at least once a week there is a mention of "shooting...Springfield." Now, granted, like vic said, for some reason the local news makes generalizations when it comes to what is and is not Springfield, but how is someone supposed to know? If the news programs and papers don't state specifically that this was not in Springfield, we're going to make the assumption that they have their stuff together and it is in Springfield. Shame on them for not getting it right, but shame on me if I assume they screwed up and go driving through that part of town late night on a Friday and get caught up in something.
while I agree the robbery stats are disconcerting, remember, every fight, every domestic, every bar fight, ect, ect, ect that is reported to police is also "assault".
The 1 murder is the one I told you about last summer. It was druggie on druggie, and ironically it happened at a house owned by a minister who is a slum lord.
It doesnt make it ok, but its not like we are a shooting gallery over here.
Also including Eastside, New Springfield, Lincoln Ct, University Plaza and Sugar Hill in our crime stats isnt really an accurate representation.
The reason Im a little defensive, BTW, is because you basically called me out. I live here with my wife and two little girls. For the record, I have never once felt that my wife or children were in danger, and they have far more friends here than we ever had when we lived in the southside area.
Quote from: second_pancake on February 25, 2008, 09:38:03 AM
Quote from: downtownparks on February 25, 2008, 09:05:07 AM
Quote from: second_pancake on February 25, 2008, 08:54:43 AM
statistics show that more violent crimes resulting in fatalities occur in and around Springfield than anywhere else in Jax.....shooting deaths every other day taking place there.
Hey Pancake, I dont think my neighborhood is for everyone, but you just stated two complete and totally inaccurate pieces of information.
In the last year we have had two shootings, one was last week with a cop shooting a drug dealer, before that is was last summer, with druggie on druggie crime.
I would be curious to see these "facts" you stated. I'm not attacking, and I am not suggesting everyone move to Springfield, but I am very tired of the misinformation.
Just so we're clear, I did say "hear" about shootings every other day, which while the "every other day" part is an exageration, to say every week is not far fetched at all. When I turn on my local news, at least once a week there is a mention of "shooting...Springfield." Now, granted, like vic said, for some reason the local news makes generalizations when it comes to what is and is not Springfield, but how is someone supposed to know? If the news programs and papers don't state specifically that this was not in Springfield, we're going to make the assumption that they have their stuff together and it is in Springfield. Shame on them for not getting it right, but shame on me if I assume they screwed up and go driving through that part of town late night on a Friday and get caught up in something.
Being that almost everything on air is now on the station websites, I would be curious to see you prove this "every other week" theory.
Quote from: downtownparks on February 25, 2008, 09:48:13 AM
while I agree the robbery stats are disconcerting, remember, every fight, every domestic, every bar fight, ect, ect, ect that is reported to police is also "assault".
The 1 murder is the one I told you about last summer. It was druggie on druggie, and ironically it happened at a house owned by a minister who is a slum lord.
It doesnt make it ok, but its not like we are a shooting gallery over here.
Also including Eastside, New Springfield, Lincoln Ct, University Plaza and Sugar Hill in our crime stats isnt really an accurate representation.
The reason Im a little defensive, BTW, is because you basically called me out. I live here with my wife and two little girls. For the record, I have never once felt that my wife or children were in danger, and they have far more friends here than we ever had when we lived in the southside area.
Totally understand on the defensive part. I was the same way about my house in Riverside. When my sister (who lives in a country suburb outside the city limits of Murfreesboro, TN) criticized my house saying that it looked like it was "in a bad neighborhood" and she didn't "feel comforatable" with her kids staying there for a week, I was more than a bit upset. I think I may have even said something to the effect of, "...sure, anything to you looks dangerous when you don't have cows and corn stalks for neighbors!"
I don't understand a lot about those other areas you mentioned. Everything looks relatively close to one another. I mean, is it the equivalent of saying (using what I know as a comparison, not for an instance saying any of this is factual) anything east of Park St. is good and anything West is bad, or is more like street level; any houses on Belvedere Ave. are good, anything on Talbot is bad, Olga is good, College is bad, etc.?
BTW, I used my corner at 5th and Laura and grabbed the crime stats, and compared them with a random place in Riverside. I used Herchel and Stockton, its near the river, and in what I would think would be a nice part of Riverside. The stats might be surprising to you...
5th and Laura
Assault / Battery 6
Burglary / Other 7
Burglary / Residential 7
Burglary / Vehicle 7
Murder 0
Robbery 6
Herschel and Stockton
Assault / Battery 6
Burglary / Other 4
Burglary / Residential 6
Burglary / Vehicle 13
Murder 0
Robbery 3
We own a home on Herschel near Stockton. All it takes is one of those events to happen to you and you have a new attitude. I would never leave until they cart me off to the dementia center but as an "almost statistic" happened to me, I am more careful and suspicious than before. I do think women are more prone to worries than men and for good reason.
Wait am I being called out too? ;) I live in Springfield with my wife and infant son and I do care about their safety, if it was as you believe, we would not live here.
Bike Jax nailed it, IMO. However, you do seem to have your mind made up, which is fine. I just feel that your opinions of our neighborhood may be based off some common misconceptions and past years struggles. The stats for instance mentioned above are skewed by the surrounding areas for the most part (ie. Lincoln Ct). I do not see any crime and trust me, I look for it. I have very little foot traffic on my road other than the people walking their dogs or a baby in a stroller. As I mentioned in my previous post, my mother in-law that is visiting continues to tell us (still, which I think is her hinting that she wants to live with us :o, sorry not gonna happen!!) how peaceful it is on our street and that she would love to live here (she was afraid of it and wanted us to reconsider when we first moved in a few years ago).
By the way, I live on E. 6th in a Queen Anne/Vernacular style home ;)
Called me out, too. One in elementary, one in pre-K. Living on the east side of Main.
Second_Pancake, love to meet you at a local party. You have a house in Riverside, but are living in Baymeadows? I've got bike storage issues, too, but when it comes to urban or suburban, I'm the genuine urban article.
Well, at least we are all negligent together. :D
Quote from: zoo on February 25, 2008, 08:36:09 PM
Called me out, too. One in elementary, one in pre-K. Living on the east side of Main.
Second_Pancake, love to meet you at a local party. You have a house in Riverside, but are living in Baymeadows? I've got bike storage issues, too, but when it comes to urban or suburban, I'm the genuine urban article.
~sighs~ Alas, yes I am. I can't be defined by where I am physically located. My soul is made up of heart pine flooring, staircases worn thin as veneer, front porches, sidewalks, pocket parks and skyscrapers ;D
We both had our places before we got married, his was bigger, and though I was reluctant to move, he was even more reluctant to reduce his living area by 1000 sq ft. Space and the realization that we'd possibly be spending the rest of our lives living apart won out ;) So, now I own a house that sits vacant with a For Sale sign in the yard in a depreciating market (in a neighborhood that I absolutely love), on which I pay a mortgage every month while I live in a house in a neighborhood filled with old farts that think for some reason weeds in our yard are what is causing the property values to decrease ::) If I sound bitter, it's because I am.
Incidently, my mind is NOT made up...to whomever said that. That is why I continually find myself driving around Springfield. That's why I keep looking up crime stats. That's how I ended up finding this forum (I googled Springfield trying to find more info on it and check up on its progress). If anything, I'm trying to find reasons TO live there. The price is right for the amount of house and the location is perfect, but it still just doesn't feel right when I'm there. I don't like the way it looks, the lack of business and the ratio of degenerates to civilized people on the main drags.
I've often said if I were a multi-millionaire, I'd buy up all the buildings along Main St., completely reface them, then sell them as-is to any reputable business person that comes along so they're occupied. Bottom line, burglar bars, liquor stores, vacant buildings, and crumbling facades do nothing to attract residents. If Main St. looked more like King and Park, 5 Points, Riverside Ave., Edgewood - First Block, that would be dramatic. But, you guys already know all this. It just seems to make more sense to take care of the main places people see when driving through, first, then focus on the residential streets. It really doesn't matter how great a row of houses looks 3 streets off the main road. No one is even going to venture down there when their first impression is that of vagrancy, crime, and poverty.
Like I said, I've tried on several occasions to find reasons to move there, and while the 'pro' side of my list is growing, the 'cons' still outweigh them. Fill Main St. with a coffee shop, a bakery, a cutesy gift shop, a couple of clothing stores (a really good one would be Johnny Cupcakes www.johnnycupcakes.com (http://www.johnnycupcakes.com)), an ice cream parlor, a furniture store or an independent interior designer's shop, and a small grocery store, then you've got something;-) Even if you guys just organized a paint-a-thon where in the dark of night you all just started painting the buildings (yes, I know it would be illegal, but it's for the greater good damnit) to look fresh and new....don't know, just hoping all this would happen a little faster I suppose.
Quote from: second_pancake on February 26, 2008, 09:11:45 AM
It just seems to make more sense to take care of the main places people see when driving through, first, then focus on the residential streets. It really doesn't matter how great a row of houses looks 3 streets off the main road. No one is even going to venture down there when their first impression is that of vagrancy, crime, and poverty.
As residents of Springfield and not developers we can't really start on main street, finish that, and then start working on our homes. For the developers to come, we residents have to do our part and live in the neighborhood. So, just let us continue doing what we do, the retail will come...and then you'll be able to move in. ;D Meanwhile, we'll all continue to love our neighborhood.
Quote from: JoeMerchant on February 26, 2008, 09:36:17 AM
Quote from: second_pancake on February 26, 2008, 09:11:45 AM
It just seems to make more sense to take care of the main places people see when driving through, first, then focus on the residential streets. It really doesn't matter how great a row of houses looks 3 streets off the main road. No one is even going to venture down there when their first impression is that of vagrancy, crime, and poverty.
As residents of Springfield and not developers we can't really start on main street, finish that, and then start working on our homes. For the developers to come, we residents have to do our part and live in the neighborhood. So, just let us continue doing what we do, the retail will come...and then you'll be able to move in. ;D Meanwhile, we'll all continue to love our neighborhood.
::) You obviously are only reading (or reading into) what you want. I know you're not developers. I stated what makes sense, not necessarily what is doable by a couple of people wanting to save homes. Hence the remark about "if i were a multi-millionaire." And, I've stated time after time about how I love the houses and how I feel about the area looking beyond what's directly in front of my face when I'm there. So, I'd appreciate it if in the future you'd not try to paint me as being a Springfield-hating-anti-historical-suburban-tract-home-loving-person-of-little-substance :P
Quote from: second_pancake on February 26, 2008, 09:46:05 AM
Quote from: JoeMerchant on February 26, 2008, 09:36:17 AM
Quote from: second_pancake on February 26, 2008, 09:11:45 AM
It just seems to make more sense to take care of the main places people see when driving through, first, then focus on the residential streets. It really doesn't matter how great a row of houses looks 3 streets off the main road. No one is even going to venture down there when their first impression is that of vagrancy, crime, and poverty.
As residents of Springfield and not developers we can't really start on main street, finish that, and then start working on our homes. For the developers to come, we residents have to do our part and live in the neighborhood. So, just let us continue doing what we do, the retail will come...and then you'll be able to move in. ;D Meanwhile, we'll all continue to love our neighborhood.
::) You obviously are only reading (or reading into) what you want. I know you're not developers. I stated what makes sense, not necessarily what is doable by a couple of people wanting to save homes. Hence the remark about "if i were a multi-millionaire." And, I've stated time after time about how I love the houses and how I feel about the area looking beyond what's directly in front of my face when I'm there. So, I'd appreciate it if in the future you'd not try to paint me as being a Springfield-hating-anti-historical-suburban-tract-home-loving-person-of-little-substance :P
I never said you loved tract homes or were anti historical.... ;)
Quote from: JoeMerchant on February 26, 2008, 09:50:56 AM
Quote from: second_pancake on February 26, 2008, 09:46:05 AM
Quote from: JoeMerchant on February 26, 2008, 09:36:17 AM
Quote from: second_pancake on February 26, 2008, 09:11:45 AM
It just seems to make more sense to take care of the main places people see when driving through, first, then focus on the residential streets. It really doesn't matter how great a row of houses looks 3 streets off the main road. No one is even going to venture down there when their first impression is that of vagrancy, crime, and poverty.
As residents of Springfield and not developers we can't really start on main street, finish that, and then start working on our homes. For the developers to come, we residents have to do our part and live in the neighborhood. So, just let us continue doing what we do, the retail will come...and then you'll be able to move in. ;D Meanwhile, we'll all continue to love our neighborhood.
::) You obviously are only reading (or reading into) what you want. I know you're not developers. I stated what makes sense, not necessarily what is doable by a couple of people wanting to save homes. Hence the remark about "if i were a multi-millionaire." And, I've stated time after time about how I love the houses and how I feel about the area looking beyond what's directly in front of my face when I'm there. So, I'd appreciate it if in the future you'd not try to paint me as being a Springfield-hating-anti-historical-suburban-tract-home-loving-person-of-little-substance :P
I never said you loved tract homes or were anti historical.... ;) oh, or of little substance.
Quote from: second_pancake on February 25, 2008, 08:54:43 AMI'm trying to figure out the families that live in Springfield. Not the single guys who have no sense of fear and welcome challenges by walking around town at all hours of the night practically inviting trouble just so they can keep the neighborhood safe. I'm talking about couples with small children.
Almost everyone on this thread has admitted, while it's better, it's still not as safe as other areas (San Marco, Riverside, Ortega, etc.), and statistics show that more violent crimes resulting in fatalities occur in and around Springfield than anywhere else in Jax. So, I was asking why anyone who wasn't in the position to be an urban pioneer (as defined in the previous paragraph) would live there?
Btw, I've explored Springfield through every single phase of restoration it's gone through, and while there have been some aesthetic improvements, it is still not some place I would feel comfortable having my 8 and 12 year old walking around on the sidewalk after dark to a friend's house...block parties or no block parties. And yes, there are places like that in Riverside too, but you don't hear about shooting deaths every other day taking place there.
First of all, saying that more crime happens here in Springfield than anywhere else in the city, is completely false. As it's been pointed out by Dan and others...the media tends to lump other areas into Springfield, when it isn't. Same goes for what's beyond Ionia towards the RR tracks. Historic Springfield is only one square mile, and as Dan said, there's only been 2 killings..one drugie on drugie (and they knew each other) the other was a JSO involved shooting and someone from another area of town. Any other murders or shootings have NOT happened in this neighborhood.
You've made it sound like there's thugs roaming the streets firing their weapons at everyone...and in reality, this is a rather quiet neighborhood. Most of the stories you hear about happen in New Springfield (which isn't our neighborhood at all) or in Lincoln Court over behind Shands...which is still not our neighborhood.
As far as families and not the single guys, there's lots of them...most with youngsters, and I see them out playing all the time...never heard of any problems with them. For the most part, once the sun goes down...it's extremely quiet and I've never had a problem walking around at night.
I live on 7th Street and though I do see the occasional homeless person walking by, I am by no means ever scared to walk outdoors. I have even walked through Springfield to Downtown in the middle of the night. Though there were people out, I was not scared of them and they did not once try to bother me. I do agree that Main Street needs more stores, but that will come in time. Our neighborhood can't change over night and if you looked at Springfield 10 years ago and look at it now, there is a massively huge difference. I believe it will not be long before retail starts coming in to Springfield. I love my neighborhood and have made many friends here then I have made living in Baymeadows or the Southside. I'm not sure, but wasn't Riverside/Avondale like Springfield 20 or 30 ago?
Quote from: hanjin1 on February 26, 2008, 10:59:25 AM
I live on 7th Street and though I do see the occasional homeless person walking by, I am by no means ever scared to walk outdoors. I have even walked through Springfield to Downtown in the middle of the night. Though there were people out, I was not scared of them and they did not once try to bother me. I do agree that Main Street needs more stores, but that will come in time. Our neighborhood can't change over night and if you looked at Springfield 10 years ago and look at it now, there is a massively huge difference. I believe it will not be long before retail starts coming in to Springfield. I love my neighborhood and have made many friends here then I have made living in Baymeadows or the Southside. I'm not sure, but wasn't Riverside/Avondale like Springfield 20 or 30 ago?
Riverside has been polished and made a little more generic over the last ten years. Springfield comes from a different direction because of its proximity to industrial areas most of which do not care if their property is attractive. Riverside bordered by Ortega and Murry hills never had the negative perceptions about the residents. The economic history of Springfield make it a bigger challenge. So much potential if Ock can pull off his rail plan the sky is the limit for Springfield.
S_P, I had posted this before on another thread, but think you hadn't gone to check it out. It's info about retail progress in Springfield. Maybe it will tip the scale in favor of the pros.
http://srghomes.com/news/
We still love you Pancake, its just that the things you are saying is what a lot of Jaxons think, and by verbalizing them (or typing, rather) you are catching the brunt of it.
I have said it before. Springfield is NOT for everyone. People in Springfield do have a special kind of mettle, and as a result, we have a special kind of community. We are not utopia, but we are also not the wild west. In regards to crime, quite frankly we are like any other urban neighborhood. There are frustrations, but at the end of the day the neighbors and the houses make it well worth our time and efforts.
As was stated earlier, find me a person who has roots in Jacksonville, and you find someone who had parents, grandparents, or great-grandparents who lived in Springfield. Of the things that frustrate me about my neighborhood, the thing that hit me the most is how willing Jacksonville Natives are to lose their own heritage.
Invariably when I meet someone with roots, they have a story to tell. Just the other day at a kids birthday party with my daughter, her little friends grandparents told me they got married at the church around the corner from me. I heard another story of a guy and his sister running though the original rose arbor in Confederate Park, I have heard story after story about this neighborhood. I would love to see Jax re-embrace its core, because this is where the city grew up. In losing its core, Jacksonville in a lot of ways lost its heart, its individuality, and many of the things that make Jax a truly special city to live in.
:-\ :'( (that's for DTP's comments about still loving me and the sad story about heritage)
Sorry, didnt mean to make it awkward :D I was just saying, at least for me, I enjoy your posts and sentiments, I just whole heartedly disagree with you on this issue. Thats all :-)
Quote from: zoo on February 26, 2008, 01:31:39 PM
S_P, I had posted this before on another thread, but think you hadn't gone to check it out. It's info about retail progress in Springfield. Maybe it will tip the scale in favor of the pros.
http://srghomes.com/news/
I saw that thread and I think that's awesome. I have my fingers crossed that something comes of it.
QuoteHistoric Springfield is only one square mile,
REALLY???? I did not know that! Ok, so if I'm looking at the map and I see MLK, I-95 and Union St. making a square that Springfield lies within, which area is actually Springfield (I thought is was the whole area).
Is it just between 8th, Main and Broad?
(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e170/prowlett/springfield.jpg)
The boundrys of Historic Springfield are actually pretty clear. I will post a map showing what I mean in a bit.
Its Hogans Creek, or 1st St to the south, Boulevard/Hogans Creek to the west, Ionia/Railroad Tracks to the east, and 12/railroad tracks to the north.
The area due north is called "new springfield", then Brentwood. the area to the east is actually called "the eastside" but is actually and old neighborhood called Oakland, then Tallyrand and Fairfield, and the area to the west is Sugar Hill, then Durkeeville.
All of these communities are historical in nature, though I personally think Springfield has experienced the majority of the change.
Here is an 1893 Birdseye. You can see that the area that is now Springfield, while being largly undeveloped (it was basically a farming community until the great fire) is platted, and established. The area north of 11 and the RR tracks is not established at all.
http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?gmd:5:./temp/~ammem_LcaX::
(http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/8800/spr1891gc7.jpg)
I love old maps! Ok, now that I know this, I'm going to have to go on another tour ;D
Quote from: second_pancake on February 26, 2008, 09:11:45 AM
Incidently, my mind is NOT made up...to whomever said that. That is why I continually find myself driving around Springfield. That's why I keep looking up crime stats. That's how I ended up finding this forum (I googled Springfield trying to find more info on it and check up on its progress). If anything, I'm trying to find reasons TO live there. The price is right for the amount of house and the location is perfect, but it still just doesn't feel right when I'm there. I don't like the way it looks, the lack of business and the ratio of degenerates to civilized people on the main drags.
I've often said if I were a multi-millionaire, I'd buy up all the buildings along Main St., completely reface them, then sell them as-is to any reputable business person that comes along so they're occupied. Bottom line, burglar bars, liquor stores, vacant buildings, and crumbling facades do nothing to attract residents. If Main St. looked more like King and Park, 5 Points, Riverside Ave., Edgewood - First Block, that would be dramatic. But, you guys already know all this. It just seems to make more sense to take care of the main places people see when driving through, first, then focus on the residential streets. It really doesn't matter how great a row of houses looks 3 streets off the main road. No one is even going to venture down there when their first impression is that of vagrancy, crime, and poverty.
Like I said, I've tried on several occasions to find reasons to move there, and while the 'pro' side of my list is growing, the 'cons' still outweigh them. Fill Main St. with a coffee shop, a bakery, a cutesy gift shop, a couple of clothing stores (a really good one would be Johnny Cupcakes www.johnnycupcakes.com (http://www.johnnycupcakes.com)), an ice cream parlor, a furniture store or an independent interior designer's shop, and a small grocery store, then you've got something;-) Even if you guys just organized a paint-a-thon where in the dark of night you all just started painting the buildings (yes, I know it would be illegal, but it's for the greater good damnit) to look fresh and new....don't know, just hoping all this would happen a little faster I suppose.
pancake: The reason why homes are now cheaper per square foot in Springfield is precisely because the neighborhood is not as nice yet as Riverside/Avondale or San Marco. If you wait till Main Street is fully redeveloped and all the bums are totally run out, then prices will be too high for you. Now is the time to buy and get in on the ground floor of the rehabilitation of the neighborhood. I hear this all the time re Riverside: People complain about how expensive Riverside is but where were they 10 years ago when it was much shadier and cheaper?
Quote from: downtownparks on February 26, 2008, 02:20:16 PM
All of these communities are historical in nature, though I personally think Springfield has experienced the majority of the change.
I agree, that Springfield has gone through a lot of change, but Sugar Hill has probably faced the most. First I-95 sliced it in half, then the expansion of the Shands complex took out most of the remaining area of what was once, Jacksonville's most upscale minority neighborhood during the Jim Crow era. Today, short of a few remaining homes and churches, its all medical center, vacant lots, surface parking and an expressway. What's left is now facing its latest test... JTA's proposed busway route from Downtown to Gateway Mall.
Quotepancake: The reason why homes are now cheaper per square foot in Springfield is precisely because the neighborhood is not as nice yet as Riverside/Avondale or San Marco. If you wait till Main Street is fully redeveloped and all the bums are totally run out, then prices will be too high for you. Now is the time to buy and get in on the ground floor of the rehabilitation of the neighborhood. I hear this all the time re Riverside: People complain about how expensive Riverside is but where were they 10 years ago when it was much shadier and cheaper?
Wouldn't be too expensive...would be what I paid for my home in Riverside, about $170 a sq ft. Anyway, I'm not waiting for the bums to be TOTALLY run out, just mostly. And for the buildings on Main to look better...and people to take the burglar bars off their windows. Btw, I don't think Riverside is expensive at all. You can still get plenty more house for your money than you can in the suburbs. What will $300k buy you in Julington Creek? A 1200 square foot townhome.
I think that is the point. There are already many homes going for $300k+ in Springfield. Imagine when it is complete. In any other major city, homes of Springfield's caliber, located that closely to downtown, the prices are outrageous $600k-1MM+. Springfield is a bargain at $300k.
what I found funny is that someone who lives in Jacksonville would say they had an "overwhelming sense of danger" about a neighborhood like Springfield. The reason I say this humors me is that my hometown is Sarasota and my family says the very same thing about Jacksonville. They come here and feel uneasy. Its not manicured, there are people of different colors, there is some trash around... they hate it and can't for the life of them understand why I would live here.
What is really funny is that I live in Springfield, with my family which includes small children and I've never felt unsafe. I've got better neighbors here than I ever did in Sarasota and there's a heck of a lot more community here than there.
So ironically, while you came to our neighborhood and left feeling the way you did, think about all the people who come to this city and feel the same? is it justified? Not really.
Thanks to everyone and their posts. I am hoping to move to Springfield and it is great to hear how wonderful the community in Springfield is. For me, community is the most important thing! I need to know my neighbors and do lots of social events as I am a very social person. I have kids so it is great to hear that there are kids in the neighborhood too. Jacksonville is the biggest city I will have ever lived in, but I have always lived near the downtown in whatever city I have lived in, and issues mentioned about homeless and brown baggers does not bother me :) I was a little concerned about the downturn in the economy hurting the revitalization of Springfield, but now that I hear about the passion people in Springfield have for their neighborhood, I am no longer worried:)
Michelle
Welcome, Michelle. Hope you have a good move. Are you coming from faraway?
Quote from: michelle on October 05, 2008, 01:11:24 AM
Thanks to everyone and their posts. I am hoping to move to Springfield and it is great to hear how wonderful the community in Springfield is. For me, community is the most important thing! I need to know my neighbors and do lots of social events as I am a very social person. I have kids so it is great to hear that there are kids in the neighborhood too. Jacksonville is the biggest city I will have ever lived in, but I have always lived near the downtown in whatever city I have lived in, and issues mentioned about homeless and brown baggers does not bother me :) I was a little concerned about the downturn in the economy hurting the revitalization of Springfield, but now that I hear about the passion people in Springfield have for their neighborhood, I am no longer worried:)
Michelle
Thanks! I am moving from Illinois. I can't wait to escape the cold :) This forum is great and I am so glad I found it before I moved. It is wonderful to hear from people actually living in a neighborhood you are considering...it puts a whole new perspective on things :)
Michelle
Welcome to Jacksonville, Michelle. For more information on Springfield, try the Springfield Preservation & Revitalization Council website and its forums. That site is specific to Springfield and has some additional resources. Here is the link: http://sparcouncil.org/index.php
Good luck with your move! :)
Thanks! I really enjoyed the SPAR website. Thank goodness for the day of the internet and so much available information! This makes the move to Jacksonville so much easier and very exciting to be a part of such a great neighborhood :)
Michelle
Here are several Metro Jacksonville articles on Springfield:
A Springfield Photo Tour
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/754/
Through the Night: Springfield Historic District
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/382/
Springfield: The Northbank's National Register Historic District
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/235/
Springfield Update
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/180/
Thank you for these links! I have really enjoyed all of them. I am just blown away at the passion and love residents of springfield have for their neighborhood. I am very excited to join the neighborhood :)
Michelle
Michelle,
Springfield is a great place to live. Lunican posted some awesome links about the neighorhood. A new thread has been created about The Resurgence of Springfield.
Thanks, I will definitely read the new thread about the Resurgence of Springfield. It is really great to get all this information before I move. I have never researched a place we were moving to so thoroughly as I have springfield. But, I have never lived in such a special neighborhood before either.
Michelle
Yeah, I do. I am tired of the freezing northern winters :) But, I like Jacksonville because it is a big city with neighborhoods intown that feel like a small town. Also, I don't drive much and rely on bicycle commuting around town and Jacksonville seems very bikeable to me, at least compared to what I am coming from. At least I will never have to bike on icy, snowy roads there :) Also, the cost of living seems very reasonable and my husband's job is very close to downtown (actually just 3 miles nw of Springfield) so we reduce our dependance on a car. I know it is not perfect by any means, but it meets my most important criteria so I am happy.
Michelle
Where are you moving from?
Urbana, Illinois.