Nocatee's Town Center Revealed
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-3631-town_of_nocatee-small-2.jpg)
It is being billed as the first phase of a pedestrian friendly downtown core. Metro Jacksonville has the site plan and wants you to decide if this will truly become the urban downtown core of a new city.
Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/715
New-suburbanism perhaps? :)
Moving right to left, we have Crosswater Pkwy that looks like a fairly substantial pseudo greenspace medianed road. Right up against this are the outparcels which to me are code words for "Square Restaurants with their own parking lots," then a huge parking lot for Publix and all. (It is interesting to see how these parking lots are absent from the pretty street level sketches, but I guess you have to have a pov from somewhere to create them). Moving to the left some more, some phase II areas, which appear to be more parking lots and small buildings in other sketches available on the nocatee wwwsite. Then a buffer of townhomes, condos and apartments before we have a band bordered on the top by what looks like a home depot/lowes shopping area and then homesites continuing on the bottom before we get to Office Park World.
So, will this be "a lively new version of the traditional pedestrian friendly downtown"? I guess so if you want to DRIVE to it. There might be sidewalks and bikepaths and all, I can't really tell, but if the royal "they" really wanted to create a true pedestrian friendly area, they would have put it in the middle of everything and clustered living spaces around it (or on top of it, shudder the thought) instead of the oh so typical linear plan shown here.
Ditto. New suburbanism at its worst. Nothing can be the center of anything if it isn't even in the center, but relegated to the NE corner of the overall development. Sea of surface parking doesn't mean "downtown" to me at all (unless you're talking about Jacksonville's).
The only real urbanism occurring anywhere in Jax is occurring downtown or near downtown. Stop trying to build new downtowns! Take a drive through Baldwin Park in Orlando and see how much of a downtown it feels like. About as much as St. Johns Town Center.
Developers don't yet get that they can't create a lively urban center from scratch -- at best an antiseptic suburban variety of it.
I sort of agree, with a twist. Scrap most of the parking lots for mini-lots or street parking AL LA Edgewood in Murray Hill. Use some of those expansive green spaces that divide the neighborhoods in the "Town" and install modern or old fashioned rural Trolley cars. Tiny 20-30 passenger cars that could fan out throughout Nocatee, and loop through and around the downtown core blocks. This could be done for as little as 2-5 Million dollars a mile, including track, cars, shops and overhead wire. It would "BRAND" Nocatee as the real rural town that it dreams to be. It has been done in the past too, ever hear of "The Ortega Company?"
Ocklawaha
I don't think the suburbanites and developers out there care much for trolleys, buses or anything else. From the look of the master plan, the "town center" is not even located in the center of the community. Instead, its an outparcel, itself.
another fancy stip center. Calling Nocatee a town is kinda funny to me. It's just a large sub-division with an open air shopping center. For what it is it's nice, but that's about it.
Can we all agree on this about Nocatee? It is what it is. They can call it whatever they want. I am sure the people that will live there will be excited that they can go to Publix, Target, Lowe's and Chili's.
Looking at those renderings makes me tired. At least they sure didn't skimp on the impervious surface. Nothing defines a place better than acres of surface parking. Seriously guys, can we get some garages and preserve some of that open space?
Downtown core = 1 story height limit, haha
They won't pay what it would cost to build a parking garage in Nocatee. Surface parking is the cheaper option by far.
It didn't work for Disney with Celebration and it won't work here. You can not manufacture a town by simply adding a "town center" full of national chains and expect to create a community.
Do you think all the people working all those high paying retail jobs will be enjoying the good life that Nocatee will provide? No they won't. They will have to commute from outside of "the town".
A rich, vibrant community does not come with the instructions, "simply add water".
I have to agree that you can not create a downtown from scratch by having one story buildings. You need to have tall buildings to even attempt to do that, and even then I'm not sure it would work.
Let's face it though. Jacksonville isn't going to become the type of urban community we would like to have until much tighter land-use regulations are put in place. Right now we are doing are best to become the Houston of Northeast Florida: nothing but endless sprawl, poorly constructed suburban growth, and poor traffic.
Why can't we get some developers with the forsight to build some really tall buildings in the city's core? The only city in the state that seems to be building a skyline is Miami. The rest of the state seems content with the kind of cheap suburban growth that will be very difficult to continue this century with rising fuel costs and poor traffic. Downtown Jacksonville is such a beautiful area and has so much potential, that it makes me sick seeing it go to waste. How many municipalities have the kind of picturesque setting we have, with 5 bridges spanning the river downtown? Not that many, I can assure you.
The city should be providing tax incentives for those who restore old and delapidated buildings as well as provide huge tax incentives for those who are willing to build some more skyscrapers downtown. Of course, that will never happen, not with the incompetence of John Peyton and the often uninterested attitude of the city's citizens.
Quote from: Bike Jax on February 18, 2008, 05:14:57 PM
It didn't work for Disney with Celebration and it won't work here. You can not manufacture a town by simply adding a "town center" full of national chains and expect to create a community.
Do you think all the people working all those high paying retail jobs will be enjoying the good life that Nocatee will provide? No they won't. They will have to commute from outside of "the town".
A rich, vibrant community does not come with the instructions, "simply add water".
Precisely. I don't suppose Blue Cross, Merrill Lynch, any of the hospitals, Modis, or Bank of America, will be moving their corporate offices over there, eh? Of course not. Welcome, The Town of More Sprawl.
I know they are trying but it is not the same as the historic town centers that already exist. I understand people are stoked b/c of a water park etc for the kids and all that jazz but I can't cough without hitting a great park with playground equipment here is Riverside.
I don't see the point in turning more trees into cement on the way to St. Augustine while there are plenty of exisitng homes for sale in our already huge metropolis.
Close or not I don't see these people getting out of the SUV's to walk, bike or walk the dogs in this town center environment. More power to them if they do but it looks like a another strip mall although more pleasing to the eye.
It is like the town center the concept is cool but poorly executed. No parking or trees near the little area people might want to walk makes for sizzling good time in the warm weather. Then they have these out parcel monster stores scattered everywhere. Leave some trees people maybe that is why people in historic disctricts can walk year round... ample tree cover.
QuoteClose or not I don't see these people getting out of the SUV's to walk, bike or walk the dogs in this town center environment.
Locally, we've butchered the understanding of what a "town center" really stands for. Now every new strip mall is using the term. Even Gateway Mall has been renamed Gateway Town Center. In Central Florida, Celebration is laid out ten times better and they don't walk there. Residents still get in their SUVs and head to Walmart and the fast food joints on US. 192 in Kissimmee.
There's no reason to think that this would be any different, especially since the "downtown" isn't even in the center of the proposed development. You'll be able to drive through Nocatee and not even get a glimpse of its "town center" if you stuck to the major roads within its borders. However, I'm sure the developers of Nocatee don't care one way or another as long as suburbanites keep forking out the bucks on homes that may not last as long as their 30 year fixed mortgages.
What a waste of space.
Make it walking neighborhood like the 3rd Street Promenade in Santa Monica.
Even the St. John's "Town Center" would benefit from closing down all the streets to vehicle traffic.
It's funny that everyone has such a negative opinion of Nocatee, obviously none of these people have investing in actually living here. The developer has painstakingly worked at making this are so beautiful, what once was a tree farm with a gazillion pines all in a row, now there are massive palms and gorgeous crepe myrtles and magnolias.
The town center will be no more ridiculous than that of Bartram or World Golf. People are moving to Jacksonville for a reason. Nocatee unlilke Palencia, World Golf, St JOhns Forest is atleast amazingly well planned and quite pleasant.
Everyone is now trying to sell their homes elsewhere to move to Nocatee............so, unless you actually have bought something in Nocatee, don't comment.
Quote from: collard on February 25, 2008, 01:32:54 AM
It's funny that everyone has such a negative opinion of Nocatee, obviously none of these people have investing in actually living here. The developer has painstakingly worked at making this are so beautiful, what once was a tree farm with a gazillion pines all in a row, now there are massive palms and gorgeous crepe myrtles and magnolias.
The town center will be no more ridiculous than that of Bartram or World Golf. People are moving to Jacksonville for a reason. Nocatee unlilke Palencia, World Golf, St JOhns Forest is atleast amazingly well planned and quite pleasant.
Everyone is now trying to sell their homes elsewhere to move to Nocatee............so, unless you actually have bought something in Nocatee, don't comment.
You're right about that one...we have no investment in Nocatee or those other places, and speaking for myself of course, I don't want one. All the developments you named are the reasons that people like me become increasingly agitated. It's unnecessary development. It's cookie-cutter housing built on the cheap with the facade of a community. If that's how you enjoy living, great. But, what happens in 20 years when Nocatee is no longer the big thing? You move on to the next big thing, another cookie-cutter development in another former natural landscape, utilizing more non-renewable resources when there is plenty of existing housing available to meet your needs. Not to mention, you still have to drive at least 20 miles to work each day becasue you can't afford your $400k house on a Starbuck's barista income (meaning, the only job you could get within walking distance from your house is a national retail job with minimum wage), thus causing more traffic issues and unnecessary pollution.
Incidentally, anyone trying to sell their home now is not doing so to "move to Nocatee", that's a subject in a different thread altogether.
I think we all have an investment in the things that Nocatee either enhances or destroys. The folks who bought homes in Palm Valley or nearby parts of St. Johns Co. expecting to live in a rural neighborhood plus the taxpayers who foot the tax bill for county infrastructure to support large developments all have the right to have a say. Nocatee's impacts on St Johns Co are significant. They were well documented before the first spade of dirt was turned, the pine trees were cut and the hundreds of wetlands were filled. The water supply problems, destruction of Florida black bear corridors, traffic jam ups on adjacent roads, need for more schools, fire stations, police, and rural sprawl were dismissed by then county commissioners as the cost of having Nocatee. The county would just have to pay up today because someday Nocatee's property taxes would be an asset.
Folks on this forum have been critical of the town center. It looks attractive but the town center was sold to the commissioners as a way for high paying jobs to move to Nocatee and provide live-work in the same place. So far that has not happened. The developers are having financial troubles. This move to add 540 acres to Nocatee will allow mega homes on the ICW which should help bring in the bucks. There will be a community and environmental cost to that too.
Many of us have paid a price for Nocatee far beyond buying a new home there.
Everyone is entitled to their opinions regarding urban sprawl, preserving nature, etc. But I have to say that reading the comments in this forum are actually scary. Some of the commentary is just downright nasty. It's as if you all have nothing better to do. Spend time trying to improve your own towns and communities rather than bash others!
Are you a realtor selling homes at Nocatee, collard?
Quote from: collard on February 25, 2008, 09:15:08 PM
Everyone is entitled to their opinions regarding urban sprawl, preserving nature, etc. But I have to say that reading the comments in this forum are actually scary. Some of the commentary is just downright nasty. It's as if you all have nothing better to do. Spend time trying to improve your own towns and communities rather than bash others!
Many members of this site are doing just that, participating in city and county preceedings and are actively promoting smarter growth in this area.
I am a St. Johns county resident and strongly oppose the Nocatee development as well as many others. There are too many missed opportunities in this region for smart (not necessarily dense) growth that promotes walkability, prevents traffic congestion, and spares millions of acres of farmland and forest. If St. Johns County spent more time trying to promote corporate and residential growth within its own urbanized area versus feeding off of Duval by allowing low density sprawl to consume pristene wilderness, we'd all be better off. Suburban growth is not a bad thing when done properly (ie. Riverside, Springfield, Murray hill, San Marco, etc..), however, suburban growth in the middle of nowhere along a 2 lane country road lined with single entry gated communities is bad.
Looking at the layout, it looks like not that much. I live in World Golf Village and am waiting to see how The Esplanada is going to work out, but in looking at the layout of that, I am more impressed. Ben Carter did a poor job at St. John's Town Center, but they have said that they learned from their mistakes, and looking at how they want to lay out The Esplanade, it looks much better for not having to drive to go from one place to another.
I have not been to Nocatee yet, but was initially interested until I realized that the commute to my business in Eagle Harbor was not feasible. I have also come to realize that in the long run, World Golf is likely going to be one of the best places to live in the area. Between the Esplanade and Lion's Gate, the retail aspect will be pretty much covered, and getting on and off the highway is convenient, the best of both worlds.
Man, some of these posts are just too much. How many guys living in their parents basements can there be out there?( ok there are no basements in Florida-you get the point) Copperhead saying that "they can just enjoy living there and be excited about going to Publix and ...Chile's" is just so damn funny -that is if I were about 15 and hanging out in an independent coffee shop contemplating complex issues like "should I get my nose or my tongue pierced? " First of all , most people buying in Nocatee are actually from out of the state-many from the west where there are cities that actually have a personality. Unlike Jacksonville which if it has a personality , it is that of a white trash , dixie flag waving buffoon. I mean if there was a there there in downtown Jacksonville there might be some( albeit very little) validity to the point of actually living downtown, as opposed to trying to create a new "downtown feel". However, given the fact that the only feel that downtown Jacksonville has is that of a bullet zipping through ones back, I think it might not be such a bad idea to create an area that has a town feel, is close to the ocean, and where you don't have to wear a flack jacket to go out for dinner. Nocatee is a very needed project for this area, and as a proud new Coastal Oaks homeowner I would love to invite you to the nearest Chile's and have some cheese fries- maybe then we can zip over to Target and sit down at the in-store Starbucks and have a cup of corporate coffee.
another faux town center . . . g . . . r . . . e . . . a . . . t !
just what Jacksonville needs to have more people and business move away from downtown.
Of Course Jacksonville has a personality. So, it's not urbane, but it is unique. It may not be trendy, but it is gritty. It may not be intellectual, but it is emotional.
What more do you want???
At least, it is REAL.
Quote from: JaxNative68 on December 28, 2009, 05:37:20 PM
just what Jacksonville needs to have more people and business move away from downtown.
um...most of the people attracted to Nocatee aren't exactly urban dwellers anyway...in fact, many of the residnts will likely be newcomerts to the area...if the market grows, there's room enough for both Nocatee and the core to flourish.
welcome donisarockies fan. sounds like you truly have much to bring to the table. in my definition, a town center should have some semblance of culture to offer. since culture, to most of the lemmings that would move to Nocatee , is the new Alvin & the Chipmunks movie, let me clarify. Most educated individuals would consider the symphony, art museums, live music and the like to be legitimate examples of culture. Sorry, but you're not going to find that in Nocatee.
Best of luck trying to sell your Coastal Oaks home in a few years when the developer offers a brand new product right down the street for $30k less.
The fact is Nocatee came in to being only by hammering through a revision to the citizens county comp plan- a plan that had just undergone normal review and revision.Nocatee push came as a 'surprise'- it was an attempt to stick a big toe in the water so to speak,and to gain development credits while the 'gettin could be got.Enter Thousand Friends of Florida endorsement- not so curious the more you know of the group- and a legal challenge by Florida Wildlife Federation & Sierra-FWF compromised by Sierra invlvement.(I was FWF board member at the time) Enter opponent Rufus Pennington-his roar a great diversion-the offer by the developers to reserve certain key waterway lands a brilliant ploy.(I personally believe the reserve lands could not be developed anyway due to previous land use/sludge dump-just a hunch....MJ and company should research!)
Nocatee opened the floodgate to ten years of other DRI and other provocative development vesting, including continued Nocatee action... impacts yet unseen.
MJ would do well to follow recent former St.Johns County Planning Commission member David Wiles profile of the Nocatee process and DRI flood.
DCA challenged the DRI and comp. plan...but they reached agreement
Quote from: tufsu1 on December 28, 2009, 09:35:18 PM
DCA challenged the DRI and comp. plan...but they reached agreement
DCA far from ideal in many cases.Of course prone to political winds.....recall DCA staffer Charlie Gauthier invited to leave....then he returned.We cold fill many pages with posts on the episodes.
Many have reached a conclusion:Hometown Democracy.
Many unreported insights.
MJ lucky to have tufsu outlook- the outlook that has helped create the landscape we deserve.
First of all Floridafurier, Nocatee is all of a few years old, so I think all the the shortcomings in the arts department might be a bit premature. Besides I can always rent Alvin and the Chipmunks and enjoy my culture right in my own entertainment room. I know that listening to PBS makes you feel like you actually are intelligent, but as someone who grew up in the San Francisco area ( I mention that just to throw out my pseudo intellectual credentials-when in Rome.....) , I can assure you that all of the things you mentioned-most all the " truly" educated people- are either all secretly hiding in the top secret Opera houses ( that's opera houses- outhouses do not qualify) that litter the "downtown core". ( god isn't that an annoying phrase- but it makes me feel so urban when I say it)or they don't exist. I think you need to step down out of Mom's attic , and realize that everyone is just not as cultured as you are in your own mind. Now if you'll excuse me , alvin, ALvin ALVINNNNN!!!!!! God that's funny stuff!
Quote from: tufsu1 on December 28, 2009, 08:43:14 PM
Quote from: JaxNative68 on December 28, 2009, 05:37:20 PM
just what Jacksonville needs to have more people and business move away from downtown.
um...most of the people attracted to Nocatee aren't exactly urban dwellers anyway...in fact, many of the residnts will likely be newcomerts to the area...if the market grows, there's room enough for both Nocatee and the core to flourish.
Any suburban office/retail park within a twenty minute drive of downtown is competition for downtown.
Quote from: north miami on December 28, 2009, 09:52:39 PM
Quote from: tufsu1 on December 28, 2009, 09:35:18 PM
DCA challenged the DRI and comp. plan...but they reached agreement
DCA far from ideal in many cases.Of course prone to political winds.....recall DCA staffer Charlie Gauthier invited to leave....then he returned.We cold fill many pages with posts on the episodes.
Many have reached a conclusion:Hometown Democracy.
Many unreported insights.
MJ lucky to have tufsu outlook- the outlook that has helped create the landscape we deserve.
northmiami...do you think Hometown Democracy is the answer?
Quote from: JaxNative68 on December 29, 2009, 02:44:37 PM
Quote from: tufsu1 on December 28, 2009, 08:43:14 PM
Quote from: JaxNative68 on December 28, 2009, 05:37:20 PM
just what Jacksonville needs to have more people and business move away from downtown.
um...most of the people attracted to Nocatee aren't exactly urban dwellers anyway...in fact, many of the residnts will likely be newcomerts to the area...if the market grows, there's room enough for both Nocatee and the core to flourish.
Any suburban office/retail park within a twenty minute drive of downtown is competition for downtown.
maybe so...but Nocatee is at least 30 minutes from downtown.
not the way I drive
Nocatee is an ecological disaster on par with the distruction on the amazon rain forest. All new development needs to stop. The tax dollars used to build the infrastructures for this POS is a total waste and does nothing but line the pockets of the developers. If the relaters are telling the buyers that it is a green community its a pack of lies. The area that Nocatee sits on was a beautiful unspoiled Florida woodland now its nothing but more sprawl. People need to understand that the greenest house is a house already built not a new cookie cutter stucco POS
While I'm not moving to Nocatee anytime soon, very few public tax dollars have ben used for the project....for example, all of the roads (including the flyover being built on US 1 right now) are funded by the developer!
Quote from: JaxNative68 on December 29, 2009, 02:44:37 PM..............Any suburban office/retail park within a twenty minute drive of downtown is competition for downtown.
Just which national retailer will be lured away from down town to Nocatee?
MY predictions
Nocatee
1999, It is sure is nice to go for a nice bike ride though the wood
2010, they are fixing this place up, look at all the new building and stores,
2022 , boy is this place a dump
Downtown Jacksonville
1999, boy is this place a dump
2010, they are fixing this place up, look at all the renovation going on
2022, it sure is nice to ride my bike from home to work along tree lined streets
Nocatee..heh it disgusts me how much wooded area they cleared and destroyed for that large waist.
yeah, there is not enough slash pine in Florida.
Quote from: donisarockiesfan on December 29, 2009, 10:08:49 PM
yeah, there is not enough slash pine in Florida.
Actually, you're right, there is not enough slash pine in Florida to offset the carbon dioxide that folks like you emit every time you hop in your Hummer to actually go anywhere in Nocatee or, heaven forbid, to downtown Jax for a concert or game. BTW, please save me the "we can walk or ride our bikes to the town center" argument because I'm not buying it.
Who cares if you don't "buy" it. I don't buy into your global warming BS either. So there you go. Just for kicks though, name any other neighborhood in the area that will have the walkability/ride-ability that Nocatee will have. Though I could care less about my carbon footprint, I hate to drive everywhere, and the fact that the community is designed to be fully connected by trails and fully self contained when finished was appealing to me. Funny thing is, this is EXACTLY the type of community you Al Gore-ites should embrace, but it's not like you guys ever actually think before you talk.
I can name many n'hoods that already have, and have had for generations, the walkability/ride-ability index that Nocatee will never have. One that immediately comes to mind is Riverside, where you can walk to a grocery store, numerous restaurants of all kinds (OK, still waiting on Indian), shops, parks, pharmacies and a hospital. Wow, imagine that. You might want to check it out some time. Just head north on I-95 and get off at the Park St exit. Or, on second thought, nevermind just stay in Nocatee and enjoy your idea of the American Dream! I'll enjoy mine!
Cheers and Happy New Year!
Quote from: floridaforester on December 30, 2009, 10:01:49 PM
I can name many n'hoods that already have, and have had for generations, the walkability/ride-ability index that Nocatee will never have. One that immediately comes to mind is Riverside, where you can walk to a grocery store, numerous restaurants of all kinds (OK, still waiting on Indian), shops, parks, pharmacies and a hospital. Wow, imagine that. You might want to check it out some time. Just head north on I-95 and get off at the Park St exit. Or, on second thought, nevermind just stay in Nocatee and enjoy your idea of the American Dream! I'll enjoy mine!
Cheers and Happy New Year!
Agree! I have always lived in avondale/riverside and I've always said that there aren't many n'hoods in town where you could walk to your hospital the way my mother did when she was in labor with both my younger brothers_ I've always thought that that was the epitome of "walkability".
Quotewalkability
With real trees too, not the twigs that the developer plants after they clear cut the entire subdivision. Back in 1925, Telfair Stockton clear cut Avondale, but hey, 85 years later with mature trees everywhere, who would know this without looking at pictures?
Quote from: mtraininjax on December 30, 2009, 10:30:18 PM
Quotewalkability
With real trees too, not the twigs that the developer plants after they clear cut the entire subdivision. Back in 1925, Telfair Stockton clear cut Avondale, but hey, 85 years later with mature trees everywhere, who would know this without looking at pictures?
I can tell you that Riverside & Avondale was not, generally speaking, clear cut of hardwoods. I could find you numerous 100-300 year old hardwoods in the n'hood (magnolias, live oaks, sweetgums, hickories and others). The difference is that this area was not planted pine back at the turn of the 1900's. Much was pasture and natural hardwood hammocks. I'm sure most of the longleaf pine was cut and used on site. Not much shipping of the lumber to build many of these homes, I'm assuming. Trees are America's renewable resource!
Avondale was only a 4 street development, Talbot, Edgewood, Avondale and Challen. Much of that original area was cut down to make way for the homes. If you disagree, check out Dr. Woods book, Jacksonville's Architectural Heritage, it shows many, many pictures of homes being built in "real" Avondale where the trees were clear-cut as mentioned above.
...........further proof....."Growth Management" process far from ideal.And as accommodating as DCA has been,state oversight has dashed the fortunes and dreams of many area developers and "Planners & Consultants".
As agreeable as DCA has been, not enough for some. Could this be the real headline behind "First Cast Reality Check"????? If so-worth a lawsuit.This time.......enviros would be wise to finally have enough funds bankrolled for the effort.
FLORIDA HOMETOWN the answer??? -consider the movement simply a reflection of emerging ability to finally get 'the story' .......'published'.
With real trees too, not the twigs that the developer plants after they clear cut the entire subdivision. Back in 1925, Telfair Stockton clear cut Avondale, but hey, 85 years later with mature trees everywhere, who would know this without looking at pictures?
[/quote]
I can tell you that Riverside & Avondale was not, generally speaking, clear cut of hardwoods. I could find you numerous 100-300 year old hardwoods in the n'hood (magnolias, live oaks, sweetgums, hickories and others). The difference is that this area was not planted pine back at the turn of the 1900's. Much was pasture and natural hardwood hammocks. I'm sure most of the longleaf pine was cut and used on site. Not much shipping of the lumber to build many of these homes, I'm assuming. Trees are America's renewable resource!
[/quote]
How many are aware that T.Stockton and J.T.Butler first floated the idea of a "consolodated" Duval county.......in the mid/late 1920's......a legislative resolution voted down by Duval voters?
Imagining the Avondale area....a "mental model".......is interesting.I reside on the banks of Big Fishweir Creek....the official southwesterly boundary of RAP........on the side of a sandhill,with 'seepage slopes' and certain elevation change on down to the creek....as seen in Jennings State Forest.
We have an elderly neighbor who recalls her children hunting the 'hood.
Brannon/Chaffee/Oaleaf (including former Trust For Public Lands parcel) "Planners & Consultants" where able to win the transformation of the area during "public workshop" by promoting "Avondale/Riverside" type during "vision".
It will not be the same.It can not be the same.The 'best' places were selected a long time ago.
I have a scary feeling that in the end much of the "Town Center" of Nocatee may never be realized, or the way it was originally envisioned....
If it is designed like the original plans it will be OK for those who want this kind of lifestyle, but if it becomes just another "sea of parking" and the usual retail suspects, it will be another north Florida failure, among many. And believe me the people who work there will not be able to afford to live there, at least not the town center portion. The live/work idea doesn't apply to the retail people.
Except for the kids of the neighborhood, the adult retail people will probably have a long commute.
Quote from: north miami on December 30, 2009, 11:05:51 PM
FLORIDA HOMETOWN the answer??? -consider the movement simply a reflection of emerging ability to finally get 'the story' .......'published'.
and what story would that be? how to get to NO....if so, look no further than the opposition party in Congress ;)
If Amendment 4 was really about democracy and letting the people's voice be heard, than
every single local comprehensive plan and plan amendment should be on referendum...instead, it is only those things that the elected officials vote YES on that would come to the voters. If the theme is "don't trust our elected officials", then shouldn't I also get a say after they vote NO?
I just can't believe the knee jerk reaction of some people regarding this or any development. Have you even been to Nocatee? Coastal Oaks was definitely not clear cut. There are trees everywhere, from beautiful old oaks to the ubiquitous pine. As to "sticks" that the developer plants, well, you clearly have not seen the trees planted in this community. Take a drive around and see if ,at the very least, you aren't impressed with the level of landscaping that the Parc Group has provided. If you are not impressed with that aspect alone then you are not in anyway objective and you would just rather have every one live in a mud hut and eat nuts and berries. I have been to Riverside previously and thought it was a nice area, but I just refuse to raise my kids in an area that I would worry on a daily basis that they may be shot.
That was a mouthful Don!
Well said. I do believe that many developers are "growing up". New developments often reflect that. Many of the subdivisions within Nocatee, however, are in fact clear cut. I live right on the other side of the ditch, and have been in residential construction for some time.
The main thing that most here would likely fault Nocatee planners with is that Nocatee is designed for automotive traffic, in spite of how it is being marketed. You even have to drive to the dog walk or walking trails.
A Nocatee Trolley system could really display some foresight.
Quote from: donisarockiesfan on December 31, 2009, 08:30:05 AM
I have been to Riverside previously and thought it was a nice area, but I just refuse to raise my kids in an area that I would worry on a daily basis that they may be shot.
Talk about knee jerk reaction.
Someone should alert all the riverside residents that their children are in danger- I don't recall any reports of children being shot in the area, and as long as we are worrying about baseless fears you should also warn them that the sky is falling.
I love Riverside/Avondale.
Having been shot at but once in my life, this testimonial is far from scientific.
It happened at Oak and Goodwin by some kids ranging in ages from about 9 -18. We (4 of us in our early thirties) were riding our bikes home from the Jazz festival and two young kids on bikes were mouthing off while riding in the opposite direction. One among our ranks fancied himself as the type not to be trifled with and yelled back at them. This was on riverside ave approaching our destination at oak and goodwin (exactly where my appartment was.)
Right as we turned the corner, there were about ten kids, one with a sawed off shotgun, who then opened fire on us from about fifty yards away. We scattered and met back at my apartment (cautiously) about thirty minutes later.
You can bet that experience played into my thinking when deciding whether to raise my children in Riverside, Springfield or Ponte Vedra.
Umm, instead of taking cheap shots at each others locations, how about we get to talking about what this thread is really about, Nocatee and it's "town center".
Haven't been out to Nocatee since this article was completed. Did they ever build this thing? As for walkability, Nocatee reminds me of Oakleaf. Both are really a collection of individual suburban developments with one way out onto an arterial street. A few are even single access gated communities. They don't really practice the concepts of New Urbanism, like a Celebration or Baldwin Park, although they tend to be marketed as such. Anyway, they say 1/3 of the general population likes living in burbs, 1/3 walkable urban core areas and 1/3 really doesn't care. To each his own.
QuoteI just can't believe the knee jerk reaction of some people regarding this or any development. Have you even been to Nocatee? Coastal Oaks was definitely not clear cut. There are trees everywhere, from beautiful old oaks to the ubiquitous pine. As to "sticks" that the developer plants, well, you clearly have not seen the trees planted in this community. Take a drive around and see if ,at the very least, you aren't impressed with the level of landscaping that the Parc Group has provided. If you are not impressed with that aspect alone then you are not in anyway objective and you would just rather have every one live in a mud hut and eat nuts and berries. I have been to Riverside previously and thought it was a nice area, but I just refuse to raise my kids in an area that I would worry on a daily basis that they may be shot.
Wow, how's the view from your office at the Parc Group? I will say that I am impressed by the amount of money you guys are willing to spend on Nocatee Parkway and the interchange at US 1.
Is Oakleaf considered a failure. I saw an article a while back that the development was not doing very well. but if you wanted a cookie cutter house on the cheap it was a good place to buy. I see Nocatee going the same way.
I use to live off HW 210 and saw first hand the clear cutting for Nocatee. I drove from 95 to PV and had to watch out for deer and wild pig in the morning as to not hit them. Well that habitat is long gone now.
The habitat is smaller, but far from gone. Had the Sierra club not delayed the start of the project with litigation, thousands more houses would likely have been built. More subdivisions would have been cut from the forests. It is still to come. The original plan was to includ 11,000 residences, IIRC.
Quote from: samiam on December 31, 2009, 02:59:21 PM
Is Oakleaf considered a failure. I saw an article a while back that the development was not doing very well. but if you wanted a cookie cutter house on the cheap it was a good place to buy. I see Nocatee going the same way.
The first phases of Oakleaf seem to be doing reasonably well. But the newer developments on the other side of Branan Field Road looks half built. Seems to be an issue all over this area. There are alot of half built neighborhoods everywhere.
People just don't understand the negative environment impact this kind of development causes. It seems they are being told it a green walkable community for the sake of the developers but it far from the truth. I have seen the damage done first hand.
The greenest house is a house already built
Quote from: samiam on December 31, 2009, 03:22:32 PM
People just don't understand the negative environment impact this kind of development causes. It seems they are being told it a green walkable community for the sake of the developers but it far from the truth. I have seen the damage done first hand.
The greenest house is a house already built
Couldn't agree with you more. Not only did this entire development violate what the State of Florida's comprehensive plan is supposed to accomplish, but it set a terrible precedent by changing land use of active, productive agricultural lands to a "new town" designation. Sure it was sold as "green" to the consumers that would like to claim to be "environmentally aware" but really wouldn't ever take the time or energy to understand sustainability or environmental impact. Look at how the developers of Oakleaf took The Nature Conservancy's logo (which has been in place for over 50 years) and turned it approx. 20 degrees and called it their own. Not enough for TNC to claim dilution of brand, but subliminally effective to appeal to some consumers.
It seem that the reality of what is truly good for the environment is being ignored in exchange for money in the pockets of the developers. People want that warm and fuzzy feeling about helping the environment. but they don't do the research. They are told they are buying into a "green community" and they get there warm an fuzzy feeling with out checking out what the true cost to the environment was.
Quote from: floridaforester on December 31, 2009, 03:42:42 PM
Quote from: samiam on December 31, 2009, 03:22:32 PM
People just don't understand the negative environment impact this kind of development causes. It seems they are being told it a green walkable community for the sake of the developers but it far from the truth. I have seen the damage done first hand.
The greenest house is a house already built
Couldn't agree with you more. Not only did this entire development violate what the State of Florida's comprehensive plan is supposed to accomplish, but it set a terrible precedent by changing land use of active, productive agricultural lands to a "new town" designation. Sure it was sold as "green" to the consumers that would like to claim to be "environmentally aware" but really wouldn't ever take the time or energy to understand sustainability or environmental impact. Look at how the developers of Oakleaf took The Nature Conservancy's logo (which has been in place for over 50 years) and turned it approx. 20 degrees and called it their own. Not enough for TNC to claim dilution of brand, but subliminally effective to appeal to some consumers.
Speaking of Oakleaf..........Oakleaf sits in part on former Trust For Public Lands option parcel- the defunct Gulfstream Land Development lands.So the Trust had a hand on the wheel for a time-the Trust was considered an entity to deal with regarding Brannon/Chaffee.The 1900 acre parcel seemed destined for the Game & Fish Commission Regional Mitigation Park-but the Park stalled at about 600 acres....and influential local persons were able to wrestle the TPL lands away.The stae was assured the property was a "hunt club' (the "Farm").Game & Fish local officer Skip Truby (now deceased) played a critical role in garnering support for what would become the Jennings Stae Forest- the GFC Mitigation Park blunder burned his ass. But even the TPL aspect is hardly the most provocative episode.
The largely untold story of how the fairly remote regional water recharge area to the west of Orange Park,amidst broad wetland belts became "Oakleaf" is a telling testimony.
The sellers of the lands that would become Oakleaf then bought a parcel in St.Johns county.....same anticipated fate.
So a developer buys land that is set aside for nature preserves and rapes them for profit
Quote from: samiam on December 31, 2009, 04:45:12 PM
So a developer buys land that is set aside for nature preserves and rapes them for profit
No the land was not set aside as preserve.It could have been,but was not.
Couldn't agree with you more. Not only did this entire development violate what the State of Florida's comprehensive plan is supposed to accomplish, but it set a terrible precedent by changing land use of active, productive agricultural lands to a "new town" designation.
Here is an interesting aspect worthy of research and profile:
The legal challenge by Sierra and Florida Wildlife Federation....was the citizen's County Future Land Use Map (FLUM) an element?? Yes-or no-or maybe??
And the involvement and stamp of approval by Thousand Friends of Florida.
How was Thousand Friends joined at the hip with FWF and otherwise in charge?
where both of these development built on former Trust For Public Lands option parcels
Quote from: floridaforester on December 31, 2009, 03:42:42 PM
Quote from: samiam on December 31, 2009, 03:22:32 PM
People just don't understand the negative environment impact this kind of development causes. It seems they are being told it a green walkable community for the sake of the developers but it far from the truth. I have seen the damage done first hand.
The greenest house is a house already built
Couldn't agree with you more. Not only did this entire development violate what the State of Florida's comprehensive plan is supposed to accomplish, but it set a terrible precedent by changing land use of active, productive agricultural lands to a "new town" designation. Sure it was sold as "green" to the consumers that would like to claim to be "environmentally aware" but really wouldn't ever take the time or energy to understand sustainability or environmental impact. Look at how the developers of Oakleaf took The Nature Conservancy's logo (which has been in place for over 50 years) and turned it approx. 20 degrees and called it their own. Not enough for TNC to claim dilution of brand, but subliminally effective to appeal to some consumers.
Oakleaf was built on a tree farm and former bombing range for Cecil Field. Not much was natural about that area in the past 80 years anyway.
During our last real estate bubble collapse, in the early '70's, there was a huge development underway in Cape Coral. All of the roads and canals were in for miles, but there was little or no building there for years. Driving through Knockatree reminds me of that.
The abandoned road in the development began to be used as landing strips by light planes flying in loads of cocaine and marijuana from Jamaica, Haiti, Cuba and the Dominican Republic.
Listen for engine noises out there!
This madness could stop to some large degree if the Davis family would reconsider much of their DDI holdings in Duval and what remains to be developed in the contiguous Nocatee and offer it up for a state or federal park. See the MJ thread, J.E. Davis National Park, at: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,6223.0.html
Quote from: Dog Walker on January 01, 2010, 10:44:04 AM
During our last real estate bubble collapse, in the early '70's, there was a huge development underway in Cape Coral. All of the roads and canals were in for miles, but there was little or no building there for years. Driving through Knockatree reminds me of that.
The abandoned road in the development began to be used as landing strips by light planes flying in loads of cocaine and marijuana from Jamaica, Haiti, Cuba and the Dominican Republic.
Listen for engine noises out there!
http://www.youtube.com/v/9HmJQyS8QVw&hl=en_US&fs=1&color1=0x402061&color2=0x9461ca"></param><param%20name=
Don't worry guys I'm on it!
If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see? Be what you would seem to be -- or, if you'd like it put more simply -- Never imagine yourself not to be otherwise than what it might appear to others that what you were or might have been was not otherwise than what you had been would have appeared to them to be otherwise. Oh, how I wish I could close up like a telescope! I think I could, if I only knew how to begin. So you got some root beer up your nose once but that was an accident, but Coke? Oh, you can't help that. We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad. Careful, he's stark ravin' mad! If I were looking for a white rabbit, I'd ask the Mad Mayor. OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: stjr on January 01, 2010, 06:00:43 PM
This madness could stop to some large degree if the Davis family would reconsider much of their DDI holdings in Duval and what remains to be developed in the contiguous Nocatee and offer it up for a state or federal park. See the MJ thread, J.E. Davis National Park, at: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,6223.0.html
Why should a private land holder be compelled to donate his property upon your insistence??
Quote from: north miami on December 31, 2009, 05:00:02 PM
Quote from: samiam on December 31, 2009, 04:45:12 PM
So a developer buys land that is set aside for nature preserves and rapes them for profit
No the land was not set aside as preserve.It could have been,but was not.
I'm sure it could have been, but that would require money..and an owner willing to sell!
Quote from: buckethead on January 01, 2010, 10:46:22 PM
Why should a private land holder be compelled to donate his property upon your insistence??
Bucket, did you actually read the thread were my proposal is flushed out (see excerpted quote below)? If you did, you would have seen I pushed for ANY option, whether by donation OR purchase . Gate didn't donate Guana Park, the State bought it. Whatever works, first it needs to be an agreed to and supported goal to achieve.QuoteLocally, I think it would be great if someone would approach the Davis family about purchasing/donating their remaining tens of thousands of acres of their Dee Dot ranch and Nocatee properties for a really special preservation of what's left of historic and natural "old" Florida.
Point taken. I did read that previously, but had forgotten how you presented it.
Well the state sure as hell isn't buying it, we're deadass broke.
Aside from the Feds and State, the acquisition of public lands is often "facilitated" by non-profit groups such as Nature Conservancy, Trust for Public Lands, Sierra, and Audubon. In the end, where there is a will, there is usually a way. Let's establish the "will" first and then focus on the "way".
P.S. I do believe the Davis family has contributed, as I recall, to Nature Conservancy, so they should be familiar with the possibilities if approached.
They do the same for the St. John's River Water Management District too and have facilitated a lot of the District's acquisition of watershed lands. The District probably has more money for this than the State does right now anyway.
How interesting........'nocatee town center' equals so many related yet "off post" comments.
Quote from: Dog Walker on January 04, 2010, 05:59:48 PM
They do the same for the St. John's River Water Management District too and have facilitated a lot of the District's acquisition of watershed lands. The District probably has more money for this than the State does right now anyway.
SJRWMD aquisitions have been done on willing seller basis.Only.The process is joined at the hip with the development industry.I personally had to run interference with the Fla DOT Brannon/Chaffee (Oakleaf) permit applicaion placed before the WMD and Fed COE (erroneous at that.....was placed as "stand alone" and then got a push from Delaney....).Senate Bill 98 Wetland Mitigation for B/C had the WMD looking at "mitigation" for B/C roadway foot print........the WMD could have looked 'basin wide' as far as Nassau county however I/"we" kept the focus on Clay.......which,thanks to Gilman passing away made a parcel "connected" (we love "connected" = cheap) to Jennings State Forest availabe as "mitigation".My point was,the issue not so much the negative ("wetland") impacts of Brannon/Chaffee (as 'mitigated' by WMD) but rather the "SECONDARY" impacts.
Th
Wasn't there a lawsuit won a few years back by Florida Sierra Club that required SJWMD to consider "secondary and cumulative impacts"?
Quote50 take plunge to launch Nocatee Water Park
Posted: February 7, 2010 - 12:32am
By JIMMEL WALSH
More than 500 people bundled up in jackets Saturday morning to ward off the brisk weather watched families and friends strip down to their bathing suits and jump into the Lagoon Pool at Splash Water Park in Nocatee.
"Before you ask, it was cold," said Kevin Wilson, purchasing manager of David Weekley Homes, a home building company with a site in Nocatee.
The temperature in the pool was the same as the air temperature -- 59 degrees.
Wilson didn't play in the water as others did. He was in and out. Wilson and his co-workers joined the Nocatee Polar Plunge to promote team building and camaraderie.
After swimmers received the signal at 9 a.m. to jump in, 50 people, some dropping their towels just as they went in, were in the pool, as their friends watched and laughed.
The event was a sneak peek of the new water park, which includes the Riptide Slide, a 53-foot tower with two water slides, a pool, Splash Cove for children and the Lazy Tides River.
The park is scheduled to open officially March 27.
The new recreation facilities also will have a 5,000-square-foot fitness center, concession building, and a clubhouse that will house special events.
Vance LeClair, resident of Riverwood, one of Nocatee's communities, has driven several times passed the park in anticipation. On Saturday, he went down the water slide twice.
"I love it! It's great." LeClair said.
Joyce Seymour, 61, also a resident of Riverwood, is originally from Michigan and is used to the cold climate. She laughed and called herself "nuts" for wanting to jump into the pool.
"I'm trying to keep young," Seymour said.
*
(http://staugustine.com/sites/default/files/editorial/images/images/staugustine/mdControlled/cms/2010/02/07/559683409.jpg)
About Nocatee
Nocatee is a new town located in Ponte Vedra on the borders of St Johns and Duval Counties. The town consists of 450 families that occupy five communities: Tidewater, Willowcove, Austin Park, Riverwood and Coastal Oaks. The town is expanding with new communities, Kelly Pointe and White Hall. The community will also have a Town Center with a Publix Supermarket, which is scheduled to open Saturday. When Nocatee is completed, it will have more than 15,000 homes.
Source: http://staugustine.com/news/local-news/2010-02-07/50-take-plunge-launch-nocatee-water-park