Word on the street is that Mayor Brown is considering opening a homeless center in the historic
Armory Building on the border of Downtown and Springfield. This building is city owned and is adjacent to Confederate/Klutho Park, which should be the crown jewel of Jacksonville's urban park system (we have a lovely vision plan for the park). For those that don't know, the Armory Building is the brick building next to the Dog Park. Can someone please post a picture?
Thoughts? I'll bite my tongue for now...
but you didn't bite your tongue...you said Brilliant!
Quote from: stephendare on October 16, 2012, 03:09:15 PM
Quote from: CityLife on October 16, 2012, 03:02:43 PM
Word on the street is that Mayor Brown is considering opening a homeless center in the historic
Armory Building on the border of Downtown and Springfield. This building is city owned and is adjacent to Confederate/Klutho Park, which should be the crown jewel of Jacksonville's urban park system (we have a lovely vision plan for the park). For those that don't know, the Armory Building is the brick building next to the Dog Park. Can someone please post a picture?
Thoughts? I'll bite my tongue for now...
We printed this three years ago, if you remember.
You knew Alvin Brown would be elected three years ago? Any good stock tips? I kid, I kid.
Is this the original discussion of the armory?
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php?topic=13431.0
NIMBY. srsly... I love all people and I hope for compassion and meaningful assistance for the homeless. But nimby.
What's that, you say? It's not in my back yard? Then by all means... wonderful idea.
(http://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad1/jsimms3/Jacksonville%20Neighborhoods%20Springfield%20Tour/SpringfieldandAvondale325.jpg)
This came into my email:
QuoteAn important quality-of-life issue impacting all residents has suddenly come to our attention, just today.
Mayor Alvin Brown will be proposing that a new homeless center (daycenter/shelter) be placed in our neighborhood, in the old Armory building on Market Street (next to our Springfield dog park).
It will attract many hundreds of homeless to the area on a daily basis. We already have a saturation of social services and homeless in our neighborhood, and this would mean a major increase, and all the various issues that come with it.
This will be made public soon, and the zoning is technically appropriate.
Obviously, this could set the Springfield (and Eastside) neighborhood back immeasurably, and be counter productive to all the hard fought progress we have earned over the last decades.
For those new Springfielders, the neighborhood was seen as a dumping ground for social services and "undesirables" of all types for many decades. Thus, the neighborhood deteriorated into a slum. Slowly but surely, we have fought to change that trend, and been mostly successful. Several years ago, a large rehab facility planned to set up shop in the neighborhood, and through our loud voices they eventually decided to move elsewhere. A new mass homeless feeding was also persuaded to go elsewhere just a couple years ago, because of our enthusiastic input.
My initial thoughts? If you don't view downtown as a self contained gated community, then its not the best site. Just goes to show that many still looks at the parks lining Hogans Creek as an afterthought and not as an economic asset. If you do view downtown as a self contained gated community, then its a great site because the city already owns it and its out of the way from the heart of the CBD. Anyway, I don't know all of the details in the decision making process, so my view isn't set in stone.
However, Stephen is right. This idea was around a long time before Alvin Brown came into office. I remember discussions on this topic taking place right on these forums during the Peyton administration.
Quote from: stephendare on October 16, 2012, 03:37:15 PM
Its not really in Springfield proper, its the west end of the East Side, but its pretty close.
Correct. The Springfield Historic District doesn't start until north of 1st Street I believe. This site is a block or two south, but due to its proximity to the Dog Park, a lot of people consider it to be in Springfield, kind of like the EHT/Park View site.
Horrible idea. You'll never see that area realize potential with a homeless shelter that large there. Taking care of the homeless is a major issue...never seen one in a nice area of any city, and for a reason. If you want those parks to be crown jewels attractive to middle class residents/families and young professionals/joggers/regular people, then you better keep the homeless away or they'll start using that park even moreso than they already do and it will never be a nice place to play. Having a shelter there could actually result in the complete demise of all progress in a whole section of Springfield. Witnessed one shelter near me completely devalue a $350M trophy class A office tower as one by one tenants left, residents left the area, one of the city's top restaurants closed, etc etc etc. BAD idea.
What does "proposed soon" mean? Is that the mayor's timeline? Cause that timeline for a drop in day center by the end of the year isn't looking too "soon" either.
How real is this? Or is it a little bit hysteria mixed with some rumors? I honestly couldn't believe the Mayor would propose such a thing considering the vital importance of downtown's surrounding neighborhoods to the success of downtown revitalization (see today Times Union for the article).
But then again, I'm continually surprised by the choices of some of our leaders.
As an advocate for the Homeless, a resident of Springfield, and a Downtown supporter, I fail to see how this location would help any one of those 3 things.
I wonder what happened to the site in Tallyrand they are/were considering? It's a more industrial area and wouldn't directly conflict witu 30 years of revitalization efforts.
Strange how while COJ is currently supporting NSP3 funded projects, brownfield grants, and LISC E.P.I.C. initiative to continue the revitalization efforts, and has spent so much money on infrastructure improvements, park visioning, urban core visioning, and incentivizing investment in the neighborhood in previous in recent years and past decades, they'd sabotage their work by plopping a homeless center in the same spot.
How much has Springfield's property values increased in the last 30 years (and thus COJ revenue)? How many millions of dollars in public and private investments? You could kiss all that goodbye if this happens.
Funny.... in today's Times-Union/Jacksonville.com there was a great piece about how our historic neighborhoods surrounding Downtown can & should be seen as assets towards Downtown revitalization. This, again, sabotages that idea as well.
To say that placing a homeless center in a revitazing area is counterproductive is putting it kindly.
The city should sell the land and the building to reuse as an office space or something. I heard that the Florida Ballet was looking to expand. I am sorry, but I have to agree with Simms on this one.
Using this Old Armory is the wrong thing to do. But don't forget even if you have a Homeless Center you can't force the homeless to go if you don't believe me just ask the ACLU.
Has there been any confirmation that this is actually being considered at this time? I know in the past the areas outside of the core that were under discussion were rejected because of the lack of public transportation. If there is real movement on a day center the community needs to be aware and participating. I believe a day center is a good idea in the right location, out of the core. The overriding problem will still remain in that so many services for the homeless are established in the core. I have often thought areas of the Naval base off of Roosevelt might offer an opportunity.
Diane Melendez
I can't comment on whether the old armory is the best location or not, but a real day center is most definitely needed in Downtown. This location seems to work as far as proximity to the various other services available. And if it gets the building used now and does not let it sit around for ten years until MCCD tries to tear it down, then it might just be a great location.
I do know this. Rather than blasting the idea as some are doing already, we should be making sure the programs will be effective. That the homeless will get what they need from the facility. That will ultimately be what we, even those among us who have real issue with the homeless, need, a moving towards a more permanent solution. We can start with the idea that it will be a day center, not another shelter.
Of course, we could simply continue to hinder downtown as much as humanly as possible and then let Sheriff Rutherford have his "relocation camps". Things like that have worked so well for everyone throughout history. I'm sure it will work just as well for Jacksonville.
Does anyone know the square footage at the Armory?
If they make the armory into a homeless shelter then where will all the hookers go? Right now that is the central hooker/johns hub.
Quote from: Cheshire Cat on October 16, 2012, 05:26:01 PM
Has there been any confirmation that this is actually being considered at this time?
Yes.
From tonight's Jacksonville.com
Jacksonville Mayor Alvin Brown is considering putting a day center for homeless people at the edge of the downtown Springfield neighborhood, a suggestion that has area residents â€" and the local councilman who wasn’t told about it â€" up in arms.
Setting up such a center has long been a goal of Brown, who promised during the campaign that establishing one would be a priority for his administration.
Brown reiterated that pledge six months ago during a meeting of a coalition of local churches, saying he wanted the site to be open by the end of the year. Plans call for a facility that would contain no beds but would have access to service providers, showers, mailboxes and the like.
Now, discussion has centered on one of two sites the city is looking at: The old armory building at the intersection of State and Market streets, adjacent to the area’s dog park and across the street from the Veterans Affairs’ Vet Center.
Brown’s office didn’t make any announcement, but word leaked out to residents Tuesday morning and they called City Councilman Johnny Gaffney, who represents the district. He said he had no idea the armory was being considered for the day center and called Brown’s office for confirmation.
“I was very disappointed to hear something like this through the grapevine,†Gaffney said. He blamed the mayor’s staff for being less than transparent.
“On something that’s as critical as this is and as sensitive as this is,†he said, “you should at least speak with the district councilperson.â€
The idea is “incomprehensible,†said JoAnn Tredennick, vice president of the Springfield Preservation and Revitalization Council.
“We and a lot of other people have invested a lot of energy, time, tears and money to get where we’ve gotten, with very little help from the city,†she said. “To have the city kick us in the teeth like this is repulsive.â€
The city has not settled on the armory, mayoral spokesman Dave DeCamp said, although it appears to be just one of two sites being considered. The other: The Miller Machinery building at 601 E. Church St.Article continues:
http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2012-10-16/story/possible-site-homeless-day-center-raises-ire-springfield-neighbors#comment-659078
Quote
The city has not settled on the armory, mayoral spokesman Dave DeCamp said, although it appears to be just one of two sites being considered. The other: The Miller Machinery building at 601 E. Church St.
That site, however, is smaller than the armory â€" 13,000 square feet vs. 80,000 â€" and is not owned by the city. The armory, built in 1915, is.
The Miller Machinery seems like a way more ideal location. Talk about concentration of services for the Homeless. Sulzbacher is right next door with a health clinic and support services.
Was the Armory ever looked at for the Supervisor of Elections? I drove around the back tonight, and I think there is 1 loading dock. It's on the bus route, has the parking. It's not single story though. And I've never seen inside to know about the ability to put another loading dock.
Quote from: Bridges on October 16, 2012, 09:32:30 PM
Quote
The city has not settled on the armory, mayoral spokesman Dave DeCamp said, although it appears to be just one of two sites being considered. The other: The Miller Machinery building at 601 E. Church St.
That site, however, is smaller than the armory â€" 13,000 square feet vs. 80,000 â€" and is not owned by the city. The armory, built in 1915, is.
The Miller Machinery seems like a way more ideal location. Talk about concentration of services for the Homeless. Sulzbacher is right next door with a health clinic and support services.
The Miller Machinery building at 601 East Church St. And Catherine St. built in 1915 is currently being demolished.
^Right. Unless they plan on constructing a tent city.
Jacksonville....where we have the world's ugliest $350 million building and the world's most architecturally significant homeless shelter. Where we build a nice new children's playground and dog park, and then put a homeless center next to it. Where the TU, Don Shea, and DIA board members go on the record saying Jacksonville's historic neighborhoods can revitalize downtown and on the same day word leaks that the mayor is considering driving a wedge between 1 of the 3 with a homeless center.
Just when you think things are starting to make sense and are headed in the right direction...
I'm still a fan of looking in a centralized but fairly isolated area like the Dennis Street industrial district. Hundreds of thousands of obsolete and underutilized brick warehouse buildings buffered by McCoys Creek, the railroad and I-95.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/814682731_3VSSK-M.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/814683066_2G8EP-M.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/814683766_4LAJj-M.jpg)
Lake, that idea is so good that it has no chance in this town. I remember when we biked it, how ideal it seemed for homeless services. The area is a complete ghost town. Almost seemed more like a movie set than real life.
Is it close enough to downtown to be able to serve as a day center?
Any pictures of the Miller Machinery building? Oh...N/M that was the whole building we discussed and noone took pictures of a week ago. Yep...gone, so I guess that means Brown is now down to just the Armory? And 80,000 SF? That might break a record for largest homeless shelter. Love this quote as it pretty much sums it up:
QuoteThe idea is “incomprehensible,†said JoAnn Tredennick, vice president of the Springfield Preservation and Revitalization Council.
“We and a lot of other people have invested a lot of energy, time, tears and money to get where we’ve gotten, with very little help from the city,†she said. “To have the city kick us in the teeth like this is repulsive.â€
CityLife, Dennis Street is literally on the other side of I-95 from the Prime Osborn. If JTA moves forward with the JRTC, it will be within walking distance of the city's largest transit hub.
Ennis, you have been saying this for a good while and I agree with you. You may remember that when Glorious was in office we tried floating this idea more than once but never got traction with it. If the mayors office is indeed considering the day center, they need to seriously look at a long term solution to the needs of the homeless and I don't think the Armory is it. The city also needs to think about the fact that we are also taking in Clay county homeless because they have no real center. In fact, some of the services in that county and other areas send them onto Jacksonville. It would be nice if other counties would step up to the plate on this.
I suspect that the goal of any community would be to expend reasonable resources to care for the needy, the unfortunate, the mentally ill, and the homeless. However, as a community succeeds in this effort, more unfortunates might arrive from other cities and states. And because of this influx, it would be reasonable to expect a city engaging in aggressive solutions for the needy would receive state and federal funds for the purpose.
Surely, the great men in our federal government, if any remain who are able to think clearly about issues, will find it possible to obtain a tiny fraction of the funds used to bomb and kill innocents in foreign lands, funds used to make war continually on some unfortunates, and route these funds to assist communities attempting to help our unfortunate citizens who are in need of it.
Any new or expanded center for the homeless or needy will act as a draw, inviting needy individuals from other cities and states. The degree to which a facility involves programs to rehabilitate, treat for drugs, provide limited medical care, counseling, and limited training so that people can begin to function normally in society, will determine the degree to which the needy population will increase and overload any facilities in the area. A facility can have a stagnant, holding function, or a progressive rehabilitative function, the former being cheaper, but the latter resulting in decreasing or stabilizing the needy population.
The warehouse district, suggested by Ennis, will permit expansion, as there are many empty warehouses adjacent to each other.
If the closer facility is to be used, near Market and State, would it draw the “campers†from Hemming Park? Would we see a decrease in “undesirables†in the core of the city, and therefore a decrease in panhandling? I suspect that the users of any new facility near State and Market will continue to visit Hemming and the core, although with less frequency, and will continue to panhandle.
I prefer the warehouse district, which is further from the core, as it offers a chance to expand the facility. Expansion will be necessary unless there is a way of limiting the individuals who use the facilities.
If there is enough federal and state money, then the warehouse area facilities could be expanded to accommodate programs to treat mental illness, drug addiction, health issues, etc, with the result that real progress would be made with many of the individuals using the facilities. This ideal situation would result in long term progress with the needy, allowing many to return to productive and normal lives.
If we simply have a day center, with minimal facilities, there will not be any long-term benefits to the overall population of the needy, and therefore the number of needy in the area will remain constant, or increase, because no programs would exist to allow recovery and a return to being a productive citizen.
Of course, I suppose we could simply house the individuals about whom we’ve talked, allowing a comfortable stability in their population. In this way, we will always have plenty of odd individuals to point and gawk at, talk about, and measure ourselves against. We need people who are unfortunate and down so that we can see just how well off we are. We need people who are mentally deficient so that we can imagine how superior and smart we are. Therefore, we need to stabilize with our current needy population. It’s fun to have a few individuals in the city core who, by their antics, give us the experience and pleasure of visiting a zoo.
The perfect location:
(http://i49.tinypic.com/34xjfck.jpg)
But they better hurry so that they can beat the expiration of the mobility fee moratorium.
Quote from: thelakelander on October 16, 2012, 11:23:51 PM
I'm still a fan of looking in a centralized but fairly isolated area like the Dennis Street industrial district. Hundreds of thousands of obsolete and underutilized brick warehouse buildings buffered by McCoys Creek, the railroad and I-95.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/814682731_3VSSK-M.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/814683066_2G8EP-M.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/814683766_4LAJj-M.jpg)
The Dennis Street industrial district is not the place for a Homeless Center! Unless a local church group was involved or the good hard working people of the neighborhoods got behind it. It's as if you are trying to hide the homeless? I know the Dennis Street area and that isn't a good place to put this center. Besides with all the railroad action around these warehouses it would be down right stupid. ::) If it was up to me and it was between the Old Armory and Dennis St. Industrial Center I would go with the Old Armory.
Miller Machinery Building as of two weeks ago.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Other/mi/i-6Tzb273/0/M/P1590945-M.jpg)
Quote from: thelakelander on October 17, 2012, 07:17:00 AM
Miller Machinery Building as of two weeks ago.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Other/mi/i-6Tzb273/0/M/P1590945-M.jpg)
How are we supposed to believe that the Mayor's office put even the slightest bit of thought into the logistics and location of a drop-in day center, if one of their 2 proposed locations has been under demolition for 2 weeks?
Quote from: If_I_Loved_you on October 17, 2012, 06:43:52 AM
The Dennis Street industrial district is not the place for a Homeless Center! Unless a local church group was involved or the good hard working people of the neighborhoods got behind it. It's as if you are trying to hide the homeless?
Yes, if you're talking about investing millions of public dollars into your downtown core to attract more economic development, it's a bad idea to have Hemming Plaza as your defacto day center and placing one on a gateway corridor (State & Union) to your downtown is highly questionable as well.
If anything, State & Union should become a centralized front door for the urban core by providing "walkable" commercial uses serving multiple neighborhoods including Springfield and downtown. Also, what happens with Hogans Creek (our real historical "Central Park" area) is just as important, if not more, than what eventually takes place with a site like the Shipyards. Why kill all that economic potential by placing an incompatible land use there if you have an opportunity to efficiently address both.
I believe, with the Dennis Street district, you could reasonably afford (from a reuse standpoint) and extend services to the unfortunate in a centralized location that is within walking distance of downtown, served by transit lines and close to potential job generators. You literally have blocks and blocks of obsolete 50 year old building with limited docking depths, square footage requirements and low ceiling heights.
QuoteI know the Dennis Street area and that isn't a good place to put this center.
You could be right but why specifically?
QuoteBesides with all the railroad action around these warehouses it would be down right stupid.
?? A series of large warehouses buffers Dennis from the railyards between Dennis and Beaver. Between Dennis and McCoys Creek, you have Harper, Swan and Marie. All are lined with obsolete buildings with a few businesses scattered in and all have long abandoned rail sidings that were disconnected from the main line decades ago. It's actually a perfect spot. One of the buildings was demolished a few years ago and if you wanted to dream big, that block could be repurposed as a outdoor centralized park for the area.
Here is an aerial of the area. You have a lot a room to work with.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Neighborhoods/Dennis-Street-Warehouse/Dennis-Street-aerial/814688590_Zc44L-M.jpg)
Here is a 1940s/50s aerial of the area. As you can see, between the railroad and McCoys Creek, you have a lot of room to work with.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Neighborhoods/Dennis-Street-Warehouse/i-zGxLZ5t/0/M/Aerial-1950-M.jpg)
Also, if you wanted it on the east end of Dennis Street, there's blocks and blocks of moonscape immediately adjacent to Interstate 95, which is elevated, and Ives Street. You would need to construct a new building since we've torn what was there down but you could possibly utilize the land under I-95 as well (pending FDOT's approval of course).
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Neighborhoods/Dennis-Street-Warehouse/P1320571/814684152_dVCcD-M.jpg)
Quote::) If it was up to me and it was between the Old Armory and Dennis St. Industrial Center I would go with the Old Armory.
Probably so. However, you'd hurt your long term goal to revitalize downtown/Springfield/Eastside, etc. by placing that use along a gateway corridor that gets traffic volumes similar to those seen on arterial highways like Southside Boulevard.
If narrowed down to the two sites mentioned in the article, I'd prefer constructing a new building on the Miller Machine site. However, that's still taking a short term view if you believe in the idea of Hogans Creek becoming a part of the "Emerald Necklace," which was a part of the 2000 Downtown Master Plan.
Good point.
Also, I wonder how the 3 new developments within 1 block of this site feel about this idea. Not to mention the Winn-Dixie that spent a chunk of cash on renovations to attract more people just a few years ago. I'm guessing none expected a new homeless hub to be their neighbor.
In any case, if Jax is to accomplish the two primary goals of a assisting a population in need, and placing the facility to do so in the most appropriate place, it will take a lot of dedication, commitment, and "leadership" .... along with federal funds routed from our imperial wars; that is, funds taken from Ike's described military industrial complex.
It's a case of reducing the suffering and killing, assisting the needy, which seems to me to be a good objective overall, or the continuation of the same senseless juvenile policies against any and all problems locally or nationally by our illustrious, self-centered, but dumb politicians who have been able to entrench themselves in power by way of an ignorant, and therefore somewhat stupid electorate. Don't mean to be optimistic.
As for State & Union, as I've mentioned before, they are the most traveled streets in the downtown area. They are also anchored by an intermodal transit station, the Ritz Theater, and downtown's only college campus. With traffic counts similar to our suburban arterials, they could possibly offer market rate opportunity for a mix of infill uses.
The addition of Family Dollar, McDonald's, 7-11, and Winn-Dixie's renovation a few years ago (none of which asked for public incentives), indicate market rate opportunity is there. However, I believe we fail to recognize that opportunity. With Rosa Parks, we even have the opportunity for TOD on the full block between the skyway and Laura Street.
Something as simple as a Form-Based code in that area (and probably a good chunk of downtown) would put us on the incremental track of changing that environment to the benefit of Springfield, Eastside, Durkeeville, Downtown, and what's left of Sugar Hill, Hansontown, and LaVilla.
Here are a few images of uses that could be naturally destined for State and Union if we don't continue to ignore their potential.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Hollywood-CA-2011/i-HhtLtLW/0/M/P1490681-M.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Hollywood-CA-2011/i-HwXzZkt/0/M/P1490674-M.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Sarasota/i-j2PJV7r/0/M/P1590337-M.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Atlanta-Fourth-Ward/i-BRtpQm2/0/M/P1580747-M.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Columbus-Ohio/i-jRsRzzn/0/M/P1570025-M.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Columbus-Ohio/i-X2mhZMs/0/M/P1570014-M.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Louisville/P1240068/719190272_fBkCP-M.jpg)
While this discussion focuses on finding a day center site, we also need to think about how the site selection process will impact the core on a larger level.
Great info Lake, but I can't hold out much hope for that sort of long term thinking. Especially when one of the two sites the mayor is supposedly "looking" at for the day center is currently being demolished.
Quote from: thelakelander on October 17, 2012, 07:46:13 AM
Quote from: If_I_Loved_you on October 17, 2012, 06:43:52 AM
The Dennis Street industrial district is not the place for a Homeless Center! Unless a local church group was involved or the good hard working people of the neighborhoods got behind it. It's as if you are trying to hide the homeless?
Yes, if you're talking about investing millions of public dollars into your downtown core to attract more economic development, it's a bad idea to have Hemming Plaza as your defacto day center and placing one on a gateway corridor (State & Union) to your downtown is highly questionable as well.
If anything, State & Union should become a centralized front door for the urban core by providing "walkable" commercial uses serving multiple neighborhoods including Springfield and downtown. Also, what happens with Hogans Creek (our real historical "Central Park" area) is just as important, if not more, than what eventually takes place with a site like the Shipyards. Why kill all that economic potential by placing an incompatible land use there if you have an opportunity to efficiently address both.
I believe, with the Dennis Street district, you could reasonably afford (from a reuse standpoint) and extend services to the unfortunate in a centralized location that is within walking distance of downtown, served by transit lines and close to potential job generators. You literally have blocks and blocks of obsolete 50 year old building with limited docking depths, square footage requirements and low ceiling heights.
QuoteI know the Dennis Street area and that isn't a good place to put this center.
You could be right but why specifically?
QuoteBesides with all the railroad action around these warehouses it would be down right stupid.
?? A series of large warehouses buffers Dennis from the railyards between Dennis and Beaver. Between Dennis and McCoys Creek, you have Harper, Swan and Marie. All are lined with obsolete buildings with a few businesses scattered in and all have long abandoned rail sidings that were disconnected from the main line decades ago. It's actually a perfect spot. One of the buildings was demolished a few years ago and if you wanted to dream big, that block could be repurposed as a outdoor centralized park for the area.
Here is an aerial of the area. You have a lot a room to work with.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Neighborhoods/Dennis-Street-Warehouse/Dennis-Street-aerial/814688590_Zc44L-M.jpg)
Here is a 1940s/50s aerial of the area. As you can see, between the railroad and McCoys Creek, you have a lot of room to work with.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Neighborhoods/Dennis-Street-Warehouse/i-zGxLZ5t/0/M/Aerial-1950-M.jpg)
Also, if you wanted it on the east end of Dennis Street, there's blocks and blocks of moonscape immediately adjacent to Interstate 95, which is elevated, and Ives Street. You would need to construct a new building since we've torn what was there down but you could possibly utilize the land under I-95 as well (pending FDOT's approval of course).
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Neighborhoods/Dennis-Street-Warehouse/P1320571/814684152_dVCcD-M.jpg)
Quote::) If it was up to me and it was between the Old Armory and Dennis St. Industrial Center I would go with the Old Armory.
Probably so. However, you'd hurt your long term goal to revitalize downtown/Springfield/Eastside, etc. by placing that use along a gateway corridor that gets traffic volumes similar to those seen on arterial highways like Southside Boulevard.
If narrowed down to the two sites mentioned in the article, I'd prefer constructing a new building on the Miller Machine site. However, that's still taking a short term view if you believe in the idea of Hogans Creek becoming a part of the "Emerald Necklace," which was a part of the 2000 Downtown Master Plan.
I bet Drummond Press Inc would have a problem with the Homeless Center being across the street from them? The Industrial district should be just that not a place to hide the homeless. CSX runs several times a day through this area I see the coal trains being so long sometimes that the engines can be over at Cash Building Material off of McCoy Creek Blvd and the coal cars still behind Nextran Truck Center at Stockton St.
I wonder what the developers of the old Warren Motors site think about this? Lake brough up some good points about the new development being planned and the money Winn Dixie spent on that stores renovation. Not too mention the Florida Ballet is across the street and the dog park and playground are a block away. I just do not see how this is a good fit. I mean that location is bascially the gateway to Downtown for anyone coming over the Mathews Bridge and the Arlington Expressway. Doug that was an awesome post by the way!
Quote from: fsujax on October 17, 2012, 09:16:57 AM
I wonder what the developers of the old Warren Motors site think about this? Lake brough up some good points about the new development being planned and the money Winn Dixie spent on that stores renovation. Not too mention the Florida Ballet is across the street and the dog park and playground are a block away. I just do not see how this is a good fit. I mean that location is bascially the gateway to Downtown for anyone coming over the Mathews Bridge and the Arlington Expressway. Doug that was an awesome post by the way!
I feel sorry for the Homeless here are people that are down on their luck not always because what they did or didn't do to themselves. Hey don't forget unless you are truly wise and save a lot of money you too could become homeless. If you ask the families that are homeless around America how they got to this point you may change your mind about the homeless. They are not all mentally ill nor do they all crap on Laura street? We need to treat these people as HUMANS not as just the Homeless. For one day you could become just like them.
Quote from: If_I_Loved_you on October 17, 2012, 09:10:42 AMI bet Drummond Press Inc would have a problem with the Homeless Center being across the street from them? The Industrial district should be just that not a place to hide the homeless. CSX runs several times a day through this area I see the coal trains being so long sometimes that the engines can be over at Cash Building Material off of McCoy Creek Blvd and the coal cars still behind Nextran Truck Center at Stockton St.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Development/Urban-Construction-9-2012/i-DM8qHmD/0/M/P1590630-M.jpg)
Kids playscape under construction. Image from September 2012 construction update.So a day center is better suited being across the street from a children's playground currently being installed than a publishing facility? To be honest, Drummond would be a better fit than a children's playground because you at least have the possible job creation opportunities. I'd say a community dog and children's park would be more on the incompatible side.
Nevertheless, Dennis Street is a mile in length. Drummond Press is located at Dennis and Stockton. That's as far as you can get from downtown and still be considered on Dennis Street. I've already suggested two general areas along the corridor, far from Drummond. One is adjacent to I-95 and Myrtle Avenue. There you go under the railroad, so there is no conflict with trains. So I'm not really understanding your logic unless you're looking at Stockton Street (the furthest point away) as a specific location. Thinking about it, you may be locking on to a few images of vacant buildings I used as examples above.
However, that area is choke full of underutilized properties. Here are some more that aren't near Stockton or Drummond if it helps:
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Neighborhoods/Dennis-Street-Warehouse/P1320546/814683360_5ybJX-M.jpg)
This is the warehouse building I mentioned was torn down a few years back. It's on the block bounded by Harper, Watts, Swan, and Cantee Streets. Considering its surrounded by some other underutilized spaces, the idea of leveling out the site and making it a park or central gathering space pops in my mind. The building below is the former Universal Paper facility. It is located at Dennis and Lemon Streets. It's roughly a 1/2 mile or six blocks east of Drummond.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Neighborhoods/Dennis-Street-Warehouse/P1320563/814683889_JzSsq-M.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Neighborhoods/Dennis-Street-Warehouse/P1320560/814683799_oj5AG-M.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Neighborhoods/Dennis-Street-Warehouse/P1320558/814683689_SUvvv-M.jpg)
Above you can see one of the issues that makes these older buildings obsolete for their original uses. When Universal was in operation, truck trailers at the loading docks were essentially in Harper Street. Below, I highlighted this site earlier but I'll show it again, since its the closet to downtown. This is at Ives and Dennis. I assume the building was torn down for the widening of the I-95 viaduct heading into the I-10 interchange. You would have to put up a building but it appears you'll have to do the same at the Miller site, since its being demolished as well.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Neighborhoods/Dennis-Street-Warehouse/P1320571/814684152_dVCcD-M.jpg)
Quote from: If_I_Loved_you on October 17, 2012, 09:30:20 AM
Quote from: fsujax on October 17, 2012, 09:16:57 AM
I wonder what the developers of the old Warren Motors site think about this? Lake brough up some good points about the new development being planned and the money Winn Dixie spent on that stores renovation. Not too mention the Florida Ballet is across the street and the dog park and playground are a block away. I just do not see how this is a good fit. I mean that location is bascially the gateway to Downtown for anyone coming over the Mathews Bridge and the Arlington Expressway. Doug that was an awesome post by the way!
I feel sorry for the Homeless here are people that are down on their luck not always because what they did or didn't do to themselves. Hey don't forget unless you are truly wise and save a lot of money you too could become homeless. If you ask the families that are homeless around America how they got to this point you may change your mind about the homeless. They are not all mentally ill nor do they all crap on Laura street? We need to treat these people as HUMANS not as just the Homeless. For one day you could become just like them.
But yet you just said you bet Drummond Press, Inc would have a problem with this being near them...Newsflash, it would negatively affect a lot more people, businesses, and the revitalization of Downtown and Springfield at the Armory than at Dennis Street.
You're right FSUJax could end up financially worse off someday. Especially if you put a homeless shelter 4 blocks from his home.
Quote from: CityLife on October 17, 2012, 09:40:06 AM
Quote from: If_I_Loved_you on October 17, 2012, 09:30:20 AM
Quote from: fsujax on October 17, 2012, 09:16:57 AM
I wonder what the developers of the old Warren Motors site think about this? Lake brough up some good points about the new development being planned and the money Winn Dixie spent on that stores renovation. Not too mention the Florida Ballet is across the street and the dog park and playground are a block away. I just do not see how this is a good fit. I mean that location is bascially the gateway to Downtown for anyone coming over the Mathews Bridge and the Arlington Expressway. Doug that was an awesome post by the way!
I feel sorry for the Homeless here are people that are down on their luck not always because what they did or didn't do to themselves. Hey don't forget unless you are truly wise and save a lot of money you too could become homeless. If you ask the families that are homeless around America how they got to this point you may change your mind about the homeless. They are not all mentally ill nor do they all crap on Laura street? We need to treat these people as HUMANS not as just the Homeless. For one day you could become just like them.
But yet you just said you bet Drummond Press, Inc would have a problem with this being near them...Newsflash, it would negatively affect a lot more people, businesses, and the revitalization of Downtown and Springfield at the Armory than at Dennis Street.
You're right FSUJax could end up financially worse off someday. Especially if you put a homeless shelter 4 blocks from his home.
Dennis Street is an Industrial district not a place for the Homeless Human's! :o
You can use the same overall dismissive logic for any place in the city where you don't want specifically want it. However, that doesn't mean such a use can't fit like a glove in that specific location. I'd argue that Dennis Street is a dying industrial area in need of adaptive reuses. I'd also argue that Myrtle Avenue, Springfield Warehouse District, and Park Street in Brooklyn are additional examples of industrial districts in need of a makeover due to the change in technology, equipment, and building design since the early 20th century.
However, out of all of them, Dennis is uniquely buffered from incompatible land uses due to the construction of Interstate 95 and the location of railroads and McCoys Creek. It's about one of the best centralized locations, where the negatives are limited on the surrounding land uses, that you'll find in and around downtown.
Quote from: If_I_Loved_you on October 17, 2012, 09:30:20 AM
I feel sorry for the Homeless here are people that are down on their luck not always because what they did or didn't do to themselves. Hey don't forget unless you are truly wise and save a lot of money you too could become homeless. If you ask the families that are homeless around America how they got to this point you may change your mind about the homeless. They are not all mentally ill nor do they all crap on Laura street? We need to treat these people as HUMANS not as just the Homeless. For one day you could become just like them.
Homeless families are not the problem downtown.
Locating the day center on the busiest street though DT is not going to fix the perception that there is a homeless problem downtown. Union and State are alreay in rough shape just driving though. This would only make the situation worse. This center should be on the far east side or on the west side of I-95.
Quote from: If_I_Loved_you on October 17, 2012, 09:30:20 AM
Quote from: fsujax on October 17, 2012, 09:16:57 AM
I wonder what the developers of the old Warren Motors site think about this? Lake brough up some good points about the new development being planned and the money Winn Dixie spent on that stores renovation. Not too mention the Florida Ballet is across the street and the dog park and playground are a block away. I just do not see how this is a good fit. I mean that location is bascially the gateway to Downtown for anyone coming over the Mathews Bridge and the Arlington Expressway. Doug that was an awesome post by the way!
I feel sorry for the Homeless here are people that are down on their luck not always because what they did or didn't do to themselves. Hey don't forget unless you are truly wise and save a lot of money you too could become homeless. If you ask the families that are homeless around America how they got to this point you may change your mind about the homeless. They are not all mentally ill nor do they all crap on Laura street? We need to treat these people as HUMANS not as just the Homeless. For one day you could become just like them.
I couldn't agree more about the homeless. However, I think you need to look at what is in the best interest of the Homeless in terms of support services, safety, and security. You also need to consider how the location of a day center would impact the area around it both in regards to the outward effect on the community and the effect of the community onto the day center.
It's pretty clear that Mayor Brown has put absolutely zero thought into either the prevention and treatment of the Homeless, and the revitalization of neighborhoods and downtown. This move absolutely reeks of panic for an administration that has made promises it can't keep.
They lost out on the Talleyrand location for a variety of reasons (Mayor's office being one of them), now they're grasping at anything.
Quote from: Bridges on October 17, 2012, 10:09:39 AM
Quote from: If_I_Loved_you on October 17, 2012, 09:30:20 AM
Quote from: fsujax on October 17, 2012, 09:16:57 AM
I wonder what the developers of the old Warren Motors site think about this? Lake brough up some good points about the new development being planned and the money Winn Dixie spent on that stores renovation. Not too mention the Florida Ballet is across the street and the dog park and playground are a block away. I just do not see how this is a good fit. I mean that location is bascially the gateway to Downtown for anyone coming over the Mathews Bridge and the Arlington Expressway. Doug that was an awesome post by the way!
I feel sorry for the Homeless here are people that are down on their luck not always because what they did or didn't do to themselves. Hey don't forget unless you are truly wise and save a lot of money you too could become homeless. If you ask the families that are homeless around America how they got to this point you may change your mind about the homeless. They are not all mentally ill nor do they all crap on Laura street? We need to treat these people as HUMANS not as just the Homeless. For one day you could become just like them.
I couldn't agree more about the homeless. However, I think you need to look at what is in the best interest of the Homeless in terms of support services, safety, and security. You also need to consider how the location of a day center would impact the area around it both in regards to the outward effect on the community and the effect of the community onto the day center.
It's pretty clear that Mayor Brown has put absolutely zero thought into either the prevention and treatment of the Homeless, and the revitalization of neighborhoods and downtown. This move absolutely reeks of panic for an administration that has made promises it can't keep.
They lost out on the Talleyrand location for a variety of reasons (Mayor's office being one of them), now they're grasping at anything.
You said it.
Where was the Talleyrand location?
Quote from: CityLife on October 17, 2012, 09:40:06 AM
You're right FSUJax could end up financially worse off someday. Especially if you put a homeless shelter 4 blocks from his home.
hey...either of the sites under consideration are 3 blocks from my house....but oddly enough, I'm not that concerned....maybe that's because many homeless people already wander in front of my place or hang out in the church park across the street on a daily basis.
Parks and Recreation is completely out of the building.
Quote from: tufsu1 on October 17, 2012, 10:21:44 AM
Quote from: CityLife on October 17, 2012, 09:40:06 AM
You're right FSUJax could end up financially worse off someday. Especially if you put a homeless shelter 4 blocks from his home.
hey...either of the sites under consideration are 3 blocks from my house....but oddly enough, I'm not that concerned....maybe that's because many homeless people already wander in front of my place or hang out in the church park across the street on a daily basis.
Then you would have more of that I guess. The mayor is just looking at city owned property close to downtown not taking into consideration all the other factors. Poorly thought out. Who is his point person on this?
not sure. I think they store some of their lawn equipment there. The admin staff is not there.
Quote from: thelakelander on October 17, 2012, 10:18:48 AM
Where was the Talleyrand location?
I'll try to find it in some notes I have, but I believe it was the old church on Tallyrand and Swift. With the goal being to have an outside facility too. The Sheriff was on board with having an officer on site too I believe.
Quote from: Bridges on October 17, 2012, 10:09:39 AM
Quote from: If_I_Loved_you on October 17, 2012, 09:30:20 AM
Quote from: fsujax on October 17, 2012, 09:16:57 AM
I wonder what the developers of the old Warren Motors site think about this? Lake brough up some good points about the new development being planned and the money Winn Dixie spent on that stores renovation. Not too mention the Florida Ballet is across the street and the dog park and playground are a block away. I just do not see how this is a good fit. I mean that location is bascially the gateway to Downtown for anyone coming over the Mathews Bridge and the Arlington Expressway. Doug that was an awesome post by the way!
I feel sorry for the Homeless here are people that are down on their luck not always because what they did or didn't do to themselves. Hey don't forget unless you are truly wise and save a lot of money you too could become homeless. If you ask the families that are homeless around America how they got to this point you may change your mind about the homeless. They are not all mentally ill nor do they all crap on Laura street? We need to treat these people as HUMANS not as just the Homeless. For one day you could become just like them.
I couldn't agree more about the homeless. However, I think you need to look at what is in the best interest of the Homeless in terms of support services, safety, and security. You also need to consider how the location of a day center would impact the area around it both in regards to the outward effect on the community and the effect of the community onto the day center.
It's pretty clear that Mayor Brown has put absolutely zero thought into either the prevention and treatment of the Homeless, and the revitalization of neighborhoods and downtown. This move absolutely reeks of panic for an administration that has made promises it can't keep.
They lost out on the Talleyrand location for a variety of reasons (Mayor's office being one of them), now they're grasping at anything.
This is exactly right. The mayor made a promise to have something by the end of the year and he is trying to keep that promise even if it means royaling screwing over his base and Downtown Springfield Eastside.
Quote from: stephendare on October 17, 2012, 10:23:44 AM
For the record, I think that Dennis Street is a great location for this.
Lets look at the reality though. The City owns the Armory. so the cost to acquire the building is: 0.00
Dennis Street? Between 300k and a million per building. All of Dennis Street? 20 million maybe?
You don't want to settle for mediocrity because you may save a million or two upfront. That's precisely the type of decision making that has separated the OKCs, Portlands, and Charlottes from Jax over the last few decades. Without answering every question raised in your post, the first thing I'd recommend is the city doing a cost-benefit analysis before doing anything. For those that don't know, a cost-benefit analysis is:
QuoteCostâ€"benefit analysis (CBA), sometimes called benefitâ€"cost analysis (BCA), is a systematic process for calculating and comparing benefits and costs of a project, decision or government policy (hereafter, "project").
CBA has two purposes:
1. To determine if it is a sound investment/decision (justification/feasibility),
2. To provide a basis for comparing projects. It involves comparing the total expected cost of each option against the total expected benefits, to see whether the benefits outweigh the costs, and by how much.
In short, a short term decision based off already having a building owned by the city in place, may save you a million or two upfront but cost you $100 million in private development and property tax revenue over a decade or so. A cost-benefit analysis helps shed light on additional factors that may be being overlooked presently, providing a community with a clearer idea of the direction it should move forward in.
Quote from: stephendare on October 17, 2012, 10:23:44 AM
Does anyone have any alternative suggestions?
It's obvious that the armory is being considered simply because the building is owned by the city. This is a problem because the site selection process fails to acknowledge other opportunities for this specific location, the surrounding neighborhoods, and even the overall point of a day center. My suggestion would be a simple one that would require taking a few steps back. A true site selection process that evaluates more than the need to provide a day center away from Hemming Plaza needs to take place. After a few sites have been identified, a CBA needs to be conducted before a final decision is made.
Quote from: Bridges on October 17, 2012, 10:37:51 AM
Quote from: thelakelander on October 17, 2012, 10:18:48 AM
Where was the Talleyrand location?
I'll try to find it in some notes I have, but I believe it was the old church on Tallyrand and Swift. With the goal being to have an outside facility too. The Sheriff was on board with having an officer on site too I believe.
We need to have the Homeless center in the Downtown area if not at the Old Armory Building it shouldn't go pass I-95.
I-95 passes through the downtown area. Myrtle provides a direct connection to the future JRTC hub. Utilizing mobility as connectivity, that's about as centralized as its going to get in Jax, on a general level.
Quote from: John P on October 17, 2012, 10:41:41 AM
Quote from: Bridges on October 17, 2012, 10:09:39 AM
Quote from: If_I_Loved_you on October 17, 2012, 09:30:20 AM
Quote from: fsujax on October 17, 2012, 09:16:57 AM
I wonder what the developers of the old Warren Motors site think about this? Lake brough up some good points about the new development being planned and the money Winn Dixie spent on that stores renovation. Not too mention the Florida Ballet is across the street and the dog park and playground are a block away. I just do not see how this is a good fit. I mean that location is bascially the gateway to Downtown for anyone coming over the Mathews Bridge and the Arlington Expressway. Doug that was an awesome post by the way!
I feel sorry for the Homeless here are people that are down on their luck not always because what they did or didn't do to themselves. Hey don't forget unless you are truly wise and save a lot of money you too could become homeless. If you ask the families that are homeless around America how they got to this point you may change your mind about the homeless. They are not all mentally ill nor do they all crap on Laura street? We need to treat these people as HUMANS not as just the Homeless. For one day you could become just like them.
I couldn't agree more about the homeless. However, I think you need to look at what is in the best interest of the Homeless in terms of support services, safety, and security. You also need to consider how the location of a day center would impact the area around it both in regards to the outward effect on the community and the effect of the community onto the day center.
It's pretty clear that Mayor Brown has put absolutely zero thought into either the prevention and treatment of the Homeless, and the revitalization of neighborhoods and downtown. This move absolutely reeks of panic for an administration that has made promises it can't keep.
They lost out on the Talleyrand location for a variety of reasons (Mayor's office being one of them), now they're grasping at anything.
This is exactly right. The mayor made a promise to have something by the end of the year and he is trying to keep that promise even if it means royaling screwing over his base and Downtown Springfield Eastside.
Why do you feel the Homeless Center would screw you over? It doesn't look like it's a place for them to sleep overnight at? But it's OK if we ship them out to the Dennis Street area with old warehouses & main line railroad tracks. I find it sad that everyone thinks about themselves "Not in my backyard" I say why not?
^Don't forget the concept of cause and effect. If your vision is too tunnelized you may solve one problem but create 20 more you never considered. I say do a true site selection process that involves the community for the best overall solution. It's more important to do this right to achieve your long term overall grand vision (do we even have one?) than rush to plop something up in a few months.
Quote from: tufsu1 on October 17, 2012, 10:21:44 AM
Quote from: CityLife on October 17, 2012, 09:40:06 AM
You're right FSUJax could end up financially worse off someday. Especially if you put a homeless shelter 4 blocks from his home.
hey...either of the sites under consideration are 3 blocks from my house....but oddly enough, I'm not that concerned....maybe that's because many homeless people already wander in front of my place or hang out in the church park across the street on a daily basis.
Yea the armory location would probably be better for you. The area south of Union and north of Church is pretty much the DMZ between downtown and Springfield, full of homeless. My wife won't even ride her bike DT alone through there.
If you put the day center in the Armory, it will likely push a lot of the homeless who hang out along State/Union, or the above mentioned DMZ, to areas north of State. Springfield does have the occasional homeless and vagrants, but by and large, nowhere near the amount downtown does. Confederate and Klutho Parks will see major influxes. As will the grounds at the Senior Center at 1st and Hubbard, which is a homeless person's dream spot. Of course purely speculation, but who knows how many homeless will be wandering around Springfield for places to sleep at night, for places to go to the bathroom, and so on.
This is a great thing for Hemming Plaza and the CBD, which is all DVI and a lot of decision makers care about, but it will come at a major detriment to Springfield, The Eastside, and the potential redevelopment opportunities in that area of downtown.
Quote from: CityLife on October 17, 2012, 10:58:35 AM
This is a great thing for Hemming Plaza and the CBD, which is all DVI and a lot of decision makers care about, but it will come at a major detriment to Springfield and the potential redevelopment opportunities in that area of downtown.
It's not really a great thing long term for the CBD. The reality is for those who dream of national retail in downtown, it's more likely to happen on State & Union than the Jacksonville Landing or some random downtown street where traffic patterns have resulted in a significant through traffic decrease in vehicle volume. So, with that said, you can't treat those streets like they aren't major players in this revitalization game.
How do the people that run the mission's in downtown Jacksonville feel about the homeless center. They should have a bigger voice in this debate. http://www.sulzbachercenter.org/ http://www.crmjax.org/ http://www.clarawhitemission.org/Home.aspx
Quote from: stephendare on October 17, 2012, 11:00:20 AM
Well its one thing to be against mediocrity, and its another thing to make excellence actually happen.
A CBA would help determine what is excellence.
QuoteWhere is the public will to raise the money for this? Who has stepped up to lead on this issue?
How much money is needed? Does anyone even know? Should the dust off Lanier's old plan be removed? Maybe we should help?
QuoteSurely there is a real estate agent on here that could find out what properties are available and how much they will actually sell for, right?
That's only one step of the process. What do we want to ultimately see happen with our overall urban area as a whole? The answer to that question plays a significant role as well.
Quote from: stephendare on October 17, 2012, 11:00:20 AM
Well its one thing to be against mediocrity, and its another thing to make excellence actually happen.
Where is the public will to raise the money for this? Who has stepped up to lead on this issue?
Surely there is a real estate agent on here that could find out what properties are available and how much they will actually sell for, right?
How can there even be a public will if the mayor won't make it an inclusive process? Are people supposed to spend hours fundraising and providing alternatives to the mayor's office without promise that he even cares?
As Lake said, there needs to be some public discussion of the long term effects. Heck perhaps the Mayor could even discuss it with the 2 council people who represent the district where it is proposed in. This has been amateur hour from the mayor.
The statements made here and elsewhere about hoards of zombie homeless coming into the streets of Springfield due this this day center are just fear-mongering at it's best. The fear mongering does more harm to Springfield than all of the social services combined. And most likely will not be successful in stopping anything.
Instead of fear-mongering, how about seeing if Springfield can get a seat at the table? You all say you have compassion for the homeless? Prove it. Get a say in how this day center will operate and insure that it is a plus for all of Downtown rather than alienate Springfield and resulting in this community having even less say in what happens around it than it does now.
Keep something in mind here. This location is partly if not mostly being chosen due to a low cost to do it. By insuring it works, perhaps the funding for a different location could be justified. Because I doubt the funding for things like more studies is in the budget nor should it be at this point.
Just basic helping rather than hindering. Funny thing about helping in cases like this. Everyone gets the benefit rather than just a chosen few.
Quote from: thelakelander on October 17, 2012, 11:04:07 AM
Quote from: CityLife on October 17, 2012, 10:58:35 AM
This is a great thing for Hemming Plaza and the CBD, which is all DVI and a lot of decision makers care about, but it will come at a major detriment to Springfield and the potential redevelopment opportunities in that area of downtown.
It's not really a great thing long term for the CBD. The reality is for those who dream of national retail in downtown, it's more likely to happen on State & Union than the Jacksonville Landing or some random downtown street where traffic patterns have resulted in a significant through traffic decrease in vehicle volume. So, with that said, you can't treat those streets like they aren't major players in this revitalization game.
Agreed. I meant it was great for the CBD as defined by DVI and other players in the Downtown game. It will help Hemming Plaza and the Laura St. corridor, to the detriment of the State and Union corridor.
Quote from: strider on October 17, 2012, 11:11:18 AM
Keep something in mind here. This location is partly if not mostly being chosen due to a low cost to do it. By insuring it works, perhaps the funding for a different location could be justified. Because I doubt the funding for things like more studies is in the budget nor should it be at this point.
What's the cost? Also, can the city not do a CBA in-house? Does the city ever do them? If not, how do they accurately manage public dollars? Honestly, it's crazy to have nearly 850,000 residents and not do them.
QuoteJust basic helping rather than hindering. Funny thing about helping in cases like this. Everyone gets the benefit rather than just a chosen few.
+1
^If the city can't do a CBA or Fiscal Impact Analysis then close the doors to City Hall tomorrow.
Really what needs to be done is a Multiple Goal Analysis for this and other projects like the convention center. Its pretty complicated, but weighs stakeholder opinions, evaluation criteria, project effects, cost, value tradeoffs, professional analysis and all kinds of crazy factors, then it compares alternatives. I did one once in grad school and it was intense...but its a really valuable tool and one that makes decision making on things like this much easier and much easier to sell to the public.
A city as large as Jacksonville should have someone in the Mayors Office, DIA, Planning Department, etc capable of doing things like that and if we do, they need to share their results.
What's wrong with the city just copying other cities? Every step of the way Jacksonville decides to go its own route, and it ends up being the worst possible route every single time. There should be a new city law that forbids decisions from being made that haven't been made with success elsewhere.
Obviously a day center is not a shelter, and usually day centers are well run and are for getting the homeless literally back on their feet, not for housing them. Still, 80,000 SF day center is perhaps the largest day center in the world. And it will be in a residential neighborhood across the street from a string of parks that stand as Jacksonville's only logical chance at great public space where FAMILIES and young professionals alike can play (think Boston Commons, Piedmont Park, Central Park...no shelters or day centers bordering any of these).
The cost alone to run the 80,000 SF Armory would probably be greater than the cost to buy and run a 15,000 SF warehouse that the owners obviously didn't want to keep anyway. That 15,000 SF warehouse just so happens to be more convenient to city services and churches and away from parks and families/single family residential neighborhood.
Additionally, it's trending in an area that could be the city's largest tourist/entertainment district. That's where you put the homeless...bordering tourist/entertainment districts, not in residential areas. Between East Bay St and the stadiums the city could have a large area filled with city services, bars/clubs, restaurants, some edgy residential meant for young/creative types, galleries, and the homeless (and conveniently the police station is right there so crime would be less an issue). There is a large, well-run day center in Atlanta in an attractive "green" building that is across from World of Coke, Georgia Aquarium, and across from the now U/C Nat'l Center for Civil and Human Rights. No problems. In Jacksonville's case there is waterfront and overpasses, too, in that area. Not to sound inhumane, but homeless avoid shelters when they can because they are not safe or clean. They are much better in camps in concealed and weather resistant areas, and that area offers these environments in perfect fashion.
Of course the city can't see 2 inches in front of itself and so it thinks the best and logical choice is to fill an entire 80,000 SF building across from parks and family occupied houses with a day center. SMH
Noone sent me an image of the back half of the Miller site. Perhaps they are planning to keep the structure still standing. However, its a little under 10,000 square feet.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Other/mi/i-RPcSwt7/0/M/photo-M.jpg)
According to the email I just received from CM Lumb, there are actually 4 locations under consideration. The Armory being one of them.
What are the other two locations?
He didn't name them. Only said that the FTU was wrong in stating there were only 2 sites.
Edit: After the backlash with the Armory, I can't blame him. haha.
Quote from: If_I_Loved_you on October 17, 2012, 11:05:27 AM
How do the people that run the mission's in downtown Jacksonville feel about the homeless center. They should have a bigger voice in this debate. http://www.sulzbachercenter.org/ http://www.crmjax.org/ http://www.clarawhitemission.org/Home.aspx
They do not support the Armory location.
Quote from: Bridges on October 17, 2012, 12:16:33 PM
Quote from: If_I_Loved_you on October 17, 2012, 11:05:27 AM
How do the people that run the mission's in downtown Jacksonville feel about the homeless center. They should have a bigger voice in this debate. http://www.sulzbachercenter.org/ http://www.crmjax.org/ http://www.clarawhitemission.org/Home.aspx
They do not support the Armory location.
Darn I posted as if these places were ok with the move to the Armory location. This is what happens from time to time with me. Ok it's up to the Mayor and City council it's why we vote for them. ;)
Why don't' they just put in an area that is surrounded by highways, pedestrian nightmares. The ss is full of those death traps. Drop the homeless there and they won't be able to leave. Let's try to salvage one of our greatest mistakes of sprawl.
Quote from: urbaknight on October 17, 2012, 01:07:04 PM
Why don't' they just put in an area that is surrounded by highways, pedestrian nightmares. The ss is full of those death traps. Drop the homeless there and they won't be able to leave. Let's try to salvage one of our greatest mistakes of sprawl.
Man you need help. >:(
Why, what would be wrong with that? There are no neighborhoods to speak of in that area so no one would be harassed or panhandled. I don't see a problem.
But naturally there should be a kitchen and lodging. And with plenty of greenspace between highways, they can be provided with farming hoes and other basic equipment in order to grow their own food as well.
Quote from: urbaknight on October 17, 2012, 01:22:49 PM
Why, what would be wrong with that? There are no neighborhoods to speak of in that area so no one would be harassed or panhandled. I don't see a problem.
The Homeless in any major city always move towards the downtown. Why? First off they can it's not against the law to be homeless. Not that many want to be homeless sure some have a mental illness and should be in a group home or hospital. But with the new rich free loaders coming into office less and less money is going to the homeless or any missions. Besides even if the Old Armory Building is used you can't force anybody that is homeless to go that's just UnAmerican.
Watch WJXT Channel 4 News tonight at 6pm.
Fyi.
Quote from: If_I_Loved_you on October 17, 2012, 01:31:41 PM
Quote from: urbaknight on October 17, 2012, 01:22:49 PM
Why, what would be wrong with that? There are no neighborhoods to speak of in that area so no one would be harassed or panhandled. I don't see a problem.
The Homeless in any major city always move towards the downtown. Why? First off they can it's not against the law to be homeless. Not that many want to be homeless sure some have a mental illness and should be in a group home or hospital. But with the new rich free loaders coming into office less and less money is going to the homeless or any missions. Besides even if the Old Armory Building is used you can't force anybody that is homeless to go that's just UnAmerican.
This makes no sense.
Quote from: MEGATRON on October 17, 2012, 01:36:14 PM
Quote from: If_I_Loved_you on October 17, 2012, 01:31:41 PM
Quote from: urbaknight on October 17, 2012, 01:22:49 PM
Why, what would be wrong with that? There are no neighborhoods to speak of in that area so no one would be harassed or panhandled. I don't see a problem.
The Homeless in any major city always move towards the downtown. Why? First off they can it's not against the law to be homeless. Not that many want to be homeless sure some have a mental illness and should be in a group home or hospital. But with the new rich free loaders coming into office less and less money is going to the homeless or any missions. Besides even if the Old Armory Building is used you can't force anybody that is homeless to go that's just UnAmerican.
This makes no sense.
Which part megatron?
Everyday people that pay their own way should have the right not to have to deal with them.
I understand there are people who are just down on their luck, but they're not the problem. There's help available for them and they do seek it out. I've met a few people like that. They found a way to get back on their feet because they didn't want to be homeless. And so at some point, they pulled themselves out of it, with social support. Some simply just don't want to work or help themselves. And they need to go!
Quote from: urbaknight on October 17, 2012, 01:42:24 PM
Everyday people that pay their own way should have the right not to have to deal with them.
I understand there are people who are just down on their luck, but they're not the problem. There's help available for them and they do seek it out. I've met a few people like that. They found a way to get back on their feet because they didn't want to be homeless. And so at some point, they pulled themselves out of it, with social support. Some simply just don't want to work or help themselves. And they need to go!
"Some simply just don't want to work or help themselves. And they need to go!" So what do we do with them?
Can we keep the thread focused on the topic at hand and not general homelessness? You guys are more than welcome to start your own thread.
Quote from: CityLife on October 17, 2012, 01:44:50 PM
Can we keep the thread focused on the topic at hand and not general homelessness? You guys are more than welcome to start your own thread.
I feel this is part of the problem? The Old Armory Building is to used for the HOMELESS right? So you feel that this thread is only about the building give me a break! :o
Quote from: If_I_Loved_you on October 17, 2012, 01:44:32 PM
Quote from: urbaknight on October 17, 2012, 01:42:24 PM
Everyday people that pay their own way should have the right not to have to deal with them.
I understand there are people who are just down on their luck, but they're not the problem. There's help available for them and they do seek it out. I've met a few people like that. They found a way to get back on their feet because they didn't want to be homeless. And so at some point, they pulled themselves out of it, with social support. Some simply just don't want to work or help themselves. And they need to go!
"Some simply just don't want to work or help themselves. And they need to go!" So what do we do with them?
What I originally suggested.
Quote from: urbaknight on October 17, 2012, 01:54:02 PM
Quote from: If_I_Loved_you on October 17, 2012, 01:44:32 PM
Quote from: urbaknight on October 17, 2012, 01:42:24 PM
Everyday people that pay their own way should have the right not to have to deal with them.
I understand there are people who are just down on their luck, but they're not the problem. There's help available for them and they do seek it out. I've met a few people like that. They found a way to get back on their feet because they didn't want to be homeless. And so at some point, they pulled themselves out of it, with social support. Some simply just don't want to work or help themselves. And they need to go!
"Some simply just don't want to work or help themselves. And they need to go!" So what do we do with them?
What I originally suggested.
Good Luck ;)
the armory makes sense as a location. it's a sturdy building near downtown, and it isn't in the middle ov the neighbourhood--rather, it's right at the edge and quite easy for anyöne who wants to avoid it to do so. all the complaints i've read about it boil down to people getting their knickers twisted over the idea that they might see a few more homeless people than usual.
Quote from: KuroiKetsunoHana on October 17, 2012, 02:50:17 PM
the armory makes sense as a location. it's a sturdy building near downtown, and it isn't in the middle ov the neighbourhood--rather, it's right at the edge and quite easy for anyöne who wants to avoid it to do so. all the complaints i've read about it boil down to people getting their knickers twisted over the idea that they might see a few more homeless people than usual.
Amen!
I just returned from being in Denver last week. I spent the majority of my time there in the urban core. Talk a bout a city that has gotten it right! They have taken what was once a blighted and rundown city center and turned it into a vibrant, active city center with nightlife, restaurants, entertainment, and my favorite, breweries!
If a city like Denver can do it, so can we. It will take smart planning and visionary leadership.
Placing a homeless day shelter near a renewing neighborhood, on an artery that could become a gateway rather than a pass-through is not only a detriment to these ideas, its just plain short-sighted and stupid.
Quote from: If_I_Loved_you on October 17, 2012, 02:51:21 PM
Quote from: KuroiKetsunoHana on October 17, 2012, 02:50:17 PM
the armory makes sense as a location. it's a sturdy building near downtown, and it isn't in the middle ov the neighbourhood--rather, it's right at the edge and quite easy for anyöne who wants to avoid it to do so. all the complaints i've read about it boil down to people getting their knickers twisted over the idea that they might see a few more homeless people than usual.
Amen!
Quote from: Bridges on October 17, 2012, 12:16:33 PM
Quote from: If_I_Loved_you on October 17, 2012, 11:05:27 AM
How do the people that run the mission's in downtown Jacksonville feel about the homeless center. They should have a bigger voice in this debate. http://www.sulzbachercenter.org/ http://www.crmjax.org/ http://www.clarawhitemission.org/Home.aspx
They do not support the Armory location.
If it's at the armory...I'll still take my kids to the playground and my dog to the park...I'll just be exercising my right to carry a firearm. No Big Deal.
Quote from: 77danj7 on October 17, 2012, 03:04:52 PM
If it's at the armory...I'll still take my kids to the playground and my dog to the park...I'll just be exercising my right to carry a firearm. No Big Deal.
God help us. ::)
Quote from: Gonzo on October 17, 2012, 02:59:14 PM
I just returned from being in Denver last week. I spent the majority of my time there in the urban core. Talk a bout a city that has gotten it right! They have taken what was once a blighted and rundown city center and turned it into a vibrant, active city center with nightlife, restaurants, entertainment, and my favorite, breweries!
If a city like Denver can do it, so can we. It will take smart planning and visionary leadership.
Placing a homeless day shelter near a renewing neighborhood, on an artery that could become a gateway rather than a pass-through is not only a detriment to these ideas, its just plain short-sighted and stupid.
http://www.tgpdenver.org/homelessnessfaq The Metro Denver Homeless Initiative conducts a point-in-time survey every year to assess the demographics of homelessness in our community. The last survey was taken in January 2012, and found that 12,605 people were homeless in Denver.
As Stephen pointed out, having the daycenter far removed from all the other homeless services DT won't work. If it's not within 10 blocks of the Sulzbacher then we'd need a Homeless Trolley. Since all the homeless services are already DT I'd say it would be politically impossible to move them anywhere except maybe offshore. As a DT resident I've accepted the fact that the homeless will be my neighbors as long as I live DT.
Quote from: 77danj7 on October 17, 2012, 03:04:52 PM
If it's at the armory...I'll still take my kids to the playground and my dog to the park...I'll just be exercising my right to carry a firearm. No Big Deal.
oh, right, because guns solve everything, and don't in any way serve to escalate tensions and the potential for violence.
...
and Bridges, i kind ov walked in on the middle ov this debate and missed that the existing downtown shelters don't like the idea--but where/when have they stated this? i agree that they should have a prominent voice in this.
Quote from: If_I_Loved_you on October 17, 2012, 03:09:54 PM
Quote from: 77danj7 on October 17, 2012, 03:04:52 PM
If it's at the armory...I'll still take my kids to the playground and my dog to the park...I'll just be exercising my right to carry a firearm. No Big Deal.
God help us. ::)
You are right....I'll just politely ask them to leave us alone...that always works ;)
Quote from: 77danj7 on October 17, 2012, 03:32:55 PM
Quote from: If_I_Loved_you on October 17, 2012, 03:09:54 PM
Quote from: 77danj7 on October 17, 2012, 03:04:52 PM
If it's at the armory...I'll still take my kids to the playground and my dog to the park...I'll just be exercising my right to carry a firearm. No Big Deal.
God help us. ::)
You are right....I'll just politely ask them to leave us alone...that always works ;)
Good ;) and most will and if others don't you have a phone call the police.
From downtown revitlaization view this does not seem to jive. Other people mentioned this is the busiest street in downtown on a visible intersection. It expands the imprint of downtown homeless services outward into a neighborhood that is emerging. Homeless will crossing 2 virtual highways to get there on foot.
Either you put a new center in a area that does not run into residential and nice parks, like industiral or warehouse like others said or you put it MOST logically where other homeless centers already are. I have driven past Salvation army and Sulsbacher before and they have expanisve unsed lots around them. What is cost of fixing the reported flooding, mold, roof leaks, and maintenaince of a 80000 square foot 100 year building versus cinder block new construction on a empty lot?
Since this thread has gotten somewhat derailed...Here is something of substance. This is supposedly the city employee who is in charge of getting the new day center up and running for the city.
http://www.linkedin.com/pub/tillis-q-devaughn/5/471/140
I'm sure the guy is a dynamite networker, salesperson, and bullshitter, but nothing on his bio/work history/education tells me he would have any f'n clue what he's doing here...
Get it together Mayor Brown.
I have worked as a volunteer at homeless centers in Austin and Houston and in my experience these are not just vets just down on their luck or single moms needing help. A measurable percentage of the homeless that I have worked with in these other cities were people with some very serious issues. Some even aggressive and some even predatory, severe drug addicts many with multiple felony convictions. Many of the ones that they worked with had serious mental issues that range across the board and many of those do not take their medications. This was always a problem for the counselors who worked at the centers to get them back on their meds. Many of the ones they worked with ultimately ended back in jail/prison. This was not indicative to everyone at the centers but it was definitely a measurable portion. Both Austin and Houston have moved their homeless centers to suitable venues in the city so as not to disturb the tourist, downtown industries like 6th Street/Town Lake in Austin and Downtown/Theatre district in Houston.
I am just not sure having this element near places where children frequent regularly is such a great idea. I don't have kids but if I did , based on my experience, would probably avoid that area until I knew how things were going.
I would think there must be a more logical place to put this facility.
On First Coast News, the reporter held up pages, and said they were considering nine sites. Earlier, I heard four. Where did the other five come from? And where are the other sites? It looks like FCN has the list but it's not in the story on their website.
Debbie, I just found the list on the TU's website. The nine sites are:
1. Armory 851 N Market Street 80,862 SF 88,200 SF City owned
2. Genover’s Hall 644 W Ashley Street 5,340 (unfinished) 11025 SF City owned
3. Vacant Church/Bldg (Talleyrand) 639 Talleyrand Avenue 5,992 (two buildings) 15015 SF Not City-owned
4. Behind City Rescue Mission 234 W State Street 19,170 40424 SF Not city-owned
5. Property behind Salvation Army 905 Forsyth Street 7,370 11025 SF City owned
6. Former Pub Bldg Office #1 928 N Liberty Street 7,113 SF 120,000 SF City owned
7. Former Pub Bldg Office #2 928 N Liberty Street 9,002 SF 120,000 SF City owned
8. Former Pub Bldg Office #3 928 N Liberty Street 5,788 SF 120,000 SF City owned
9. Miller Machinery 601 East Church Street building demolished 43629 SF Not city-owned
http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2012-10-17/story/cost-will-be-big-factor-jacksonvilles-selection-homeless-day-center-site (http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2012-10-17/story/cost-will-be-big-factor-jacksonvilles-selection-homeless-day-center-site)
Quote from: KuroiKetsunoHana on October 17, 2012, 02:50:17 PM
the armory makes sense as a location. it's a sturdy building near downtown, and it isn't in the middle ov the neighbourhood--rather, it's right at the edge and quite easy for anyöne who wants to avoid it to do so. all the complaints i've read about it boil down to people getting their knickers twisted over the idea that they might see a few more homeless people than usual.
Exactly. Pack of NIMBYs; y'all should move to Avondale and battle the Evil Forces Of Pizza.
After reading the FTU article, the armory really doesn't make any sense. The only thing going for it is that its city owned, like the majority of the lots on the list. Other than that, its on a gateway corridor, next to a children's playground, too large, and expensive. Not exactly the best for the purposes of a day center.
Does anyone have an idea on what sites the social service providers like on that list?
I've been told the Task Force charged with selecting a site prefers 905 W. Forsyth, a former Lee & Cates Glass warehouse, directly next to the Salvation Army.
But the Mayor's lead on this issue, Mr. Tillis DeVaughn, preferred the Armory.
Referring to the article, it's disturbing that doing it on the cheap seems to be their #1 priority. This is a long-term strategic decision.
Good grief.
905 W. Forsyth makes sense, considering it directly opens up to Salvation Army. Any reason why the more expensive Armory is desired? Considering its size, what else would they see going into that space?
Quote from: JaxByDefault on October 17, 2012, 10:10:50 PM
Debbie, I just found the list on the TU's website. The nine sites are:
1. Armory 851 N Market Street 80,862 SF 88,200 SF City owned
2. Genover’s Hall 644 W Ashley Street 5,340 (unfinished) 11025 SF City owned
3. Vacant Church/Bldg (Talleyrand) 639 Talleyrand Avenue 5,992 (two buildings) 15015 SF Not City-owned
4. Behind City Rescue Mission 234 W State Street 19,170 40424 SF Not city-owned
5. Property behind Salvation Army 905 Forsyth Street 7,370 11025 SF City owned
6. Former Pub Bldg Office #1 928 N Liberty Street 7,113 SF 120,000 SF City owned
7. Former Pub Bldg Office #2 928 N Liberty Street 9,002 SF 120,000 SF City owned
8. Former Pub Bldg Office #3 928 N Liberty Street 5,788 SF 120,000 SF City owned
9. Miller Machinery 601 East Church Street building demolished 43629 SF Not city-owned
http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2012-10-17/story/cost-will-be-big-factor-jacksonvilles-selection-homeless-day-center-site (http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2012-10-17/story/cost-will-be-big-factor-jacksonvilles-selection-homeless-day-center-site)
Genovar's Hall is one of the proposed properties?? Seriously?
I presume if this one is even tabled for consideration, the shell of the building would be demolished. While I hate to lose another historic site, there is little there , now , anyway. Id rather lose it , than any other place that is endangered.
The Armory certainly has more than enough space. I wish the building could be utilized in another way.. a venue of some kind, museum space or , something that makes it a destination. It is a beautiful old building. Of course, rather than it being vacated and trashed as seems to be the norm , then Id rather see it used for this purpose.
Property #4 , make sense, space and location-wise. All require retrofit, or demolition / new-build , or extensive renovation.
Obviously a place is needed. There are other vacant buildings in downtown that possibly could fit the criteria and probably will not otherwise be renovated, for any other purpose . The Davis Furniture Building at 135 Broad Street comes to mind. Probably not one the City would consider , but close enough to the Sulzbacher Center, CRM, and Clara White, Probably space-wise adequate. A building that will probably otherwise not have a chance of ever being renovated, and in an area that is workable , I would think, for all concerned.
Quote from: thelakelander on October 18, 2012, 12:08:13 AM
905 W. Forsyth makes sense, considering it directly opens up to Salvation Army. Any reason why the more expensive Armory is desired? Considering its size, what else would they see going into that space?
Lake,
I don't think much thought was put into it all.
If it's city owned, not being used, and near Downtown it seems it was on the list.
They also entertained the 9th & Main building, if you can believe it.
Maybe that's why COJ hasn't been cooperative with interesed buyers of late.
I just looked through the list. It seems that #6, #7, and #8 on the list are also in Spingfield--literally next door to the Armory. These are part of a city owned cluster of buildings. Does anyone know what condition they're in?
The old Lee and Cates warehouse seems ideal.
^I agree. It basically opens up to what Salvation Army already has in place.
Won't they need some kind of COA for this?
Is the building up to code for this?
Who will manage the Center?
What services will be offered at this Center?
What exactly is the goal for for this Center, and is the goal attainable at this location?
Does the city even have a plan or goal for homelessness in this city?
Too many questions.
Quote from: thelakelander on October 18, 2012, 07:46:44 AM
^I agree. It basically opens up to what Salvation Army already has in place.
The old Lee & Cates glass warehouse isn't a good idea at all! It's to close to the "Sally Corporation" we don't need to tick these people off and have them move from the area. :o
Quote from: 02roadking on October 18, 2012, 08:03:27 AM
Won't they need some kind of COA for this?
Is the building up to code for this?
Who will manage the Center?
What services will be offered at this Center?
What exactly is the goal for for this Center, and is the goal attainable at this location?
Does the city even have a plan or goal for homelessness in this city?
Too many questions.
No COA needed, it's outside of the Historic District. Doesn't sound like its up to code. The Times Union article cites an earlier study that estimates the cost of rehab at 9.6 million. The city could easily build or acquire a more appropriately located building for much less.
Those are great questions...along with what will the long term implications be for Springfield/Eastside and the State/Union corridor? How will the new center affect property taxes in surrounding areas? What are the potential losses in city revenue (property taxes) at sites like the Armory vs. the upfront cost of locating in an area with less redevelopment potential? What location do homeless services people feel will be most beneficial to their work? How does the general public feel? How do surrounding residents, businesses, organizations feel?
Like I said in another post...it looks like Mayor Brown put a guy in way over his head on this. Which is pretty evident by how the whole process has been boggled.
Quote from: JaxByDefault on October 17, 2012, 10:10:50 PM
Debbie, I just found the list on the TU's website. The nine sites are:
1. Armory 851 N Market Street 80,862 SF 88,200 SF City owned
2. Genover’s Hall 644 W Ashley Street 5,340 (unfinished) 11025 SF City owned
3. Vacant Church/Bldg (Talleyrand) 639 Talleyrand Avenue 5,992 (two buildings) 15015 SF Not City-owned
4. Behind City Rescue Mission 234 W State Street 19,170 40424 SF Not city-owned
5. Property behind Salvation Army 905 Forsyth Street 7,370 11025 SF City owned
6. Former Pub Bldg Office #1 928 N Liberty Street 7,113 SF 120,000 SF City owned
7. Former Pub Bldg Office #2 928 N Liberty Street 9,002 SF 120,000 SF City owned
8. Former Pub Bldg Office #3 928 N Liberty Street 5,788 SF 120,000 SF City owned
9. Miller Machinery 601 East Church Street building demolished 43629 SF Not city-owned
http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2012-10-17/story/cost-will-be-big-factor-jacksonvilles-selection-homeless-day-center-site (http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2012-10-17/story/cost-will-be-big-factor-jacksonvilles-selection-homeless-day-center-site)
Let me get this straight. They go from wanting an 80000 square foot building to considering 5000 foot square buildings? Who is running this monkey show?
A comment from yesterday's article:
From May of 2006 until Sep 2010(with a couple of attempts to get off the streets) I was homeless in this city and one of the hardest things to do was navigate the scattered services maze. From Sulzbacher, Clara White, City Rescue Mission, Trinity, Salvation Army to the various churches and other organizations, it was a jigsaw puzzle. The problem with ANY attempt at a solution is the "NIMBY" syndrome. No one wants a homeless shelter in their backyard, but it's ok to put one in someone else's backyard. I got off the streets thanks to a LOT of people who believed in me and gave me support. But no matter how many people open doors for you, you still have to walk through them. I have a different perspective because I've been there and done that. There needs to be consolidation of services for the homeless, not this scattershot and haphazard system in place now. No matter where a "day shelter/drop-in center is located there will be issues. It's just the nature of the beast. But if ALL the organizations providing help could be found under one roof or on the same property, it would be easier to A) know how many homeless there are, B)make it easier for those homeless who choose to get off the streets do so and C) show a little more compassion than having people who have had very little sleep and not much food(try living the street life for one week or even one day) walking all over the city looking for help. That's one of the main reasons that Hemming Plaza is filled with homeless, because eventually one gets fed up and tired of walking all over the city looking for assistance. And I'm not talking about the percentage of homeless who choose to be there and choose to chuck society. Those folks were in Hemming Plaza when I arrived here homeless a little over six years ago.
Read more at Jacksonville.com: http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2012-10-16/story/possible-site-homeless-day-center-raises-ire-springfield-neighbors#ixzz29eWn3Nbj
Quote from: If_I_Loved_you on October 18, 2012, 08:04:20 AM
Quote from: thelakelander on October 18, 2012, 07:46:44 AM
^I agree. It basically opens up to what Salvation Army already has in place.
The old Lee & Cates glass warehouse isn't a good idea at all! It's to close to the "Sally Corporation" we don't need to tick these people off and have them move from the area. :o
??? Doesn't sound like your familiar with what already takes place behind that old building.
Thanks for linking that Roadking. I've always thought we should consolidate our services in one central location, either in an area like the Dennis Street District that Lake has mentioned, or on a rural piece of land away from residential districts, but importantly with a bus line and free bus passes.
The homeless put a huge, huge burden on the city and its residents. I once sat through a presentation by the head of the Jail, who listed the top 10 or so most active recidivist criminals (who were all homeless/vagrants DT). They were each arrested an appalling amount of times per year. Something like 15-25 times each. This was a few years ago, but if I remember correctly, the cost of just those 10 or so to the city was something like $1 million a year in wasted JSO time, prosecution, jail bookings, jail stays, etc.
Then look at the cost to our local hospitals. Shands gets absolutely crushed by having to provide hospital services to the homeless, and I believe St. Vincents, and the Southbank hospitals get hit hard too.
Then there is the issue of downtown revitalization. Look you can spin it all you want and mock people for being afraid to live, work, and play downtown because of the homeless (I'm not)...but you cannot deny that they do hinder DT in numerous ways. And like that former homeless person said, DT isn't exactly a great atmosphere for the homeless.
So consolidate all services somewhere where ALL parties can benefit. Get Shands, St. Vincents, Baptist, etc to open a great clinic there and limit their losses. Open a mental health clinic there, a pharmacy, a VA branch. Give them everything they need from a mental health and health perspective. Then use the land to teach them sustainable agriculture practices, teach them how to manufacture things, get them GED's, and vocational training. Make sure that they have bus access to the rest of the city for job opportunities.
I could go on and on, but to keep it short, consolidating services will not just benefit downtown and Jacksonville residents, but also the cities budget, and the quality of life of its residents. Additionally, the homeless could be much better served through targeted efforts and not a scattering of services.
Hopefully the day center will just be a temporary band aid, until we can get some leadership that are willing to think big picture.
Pinky, Springfield still has 4 alco houses and 4 sober houses. Four are within a block of our house. All well run and no issue for the community, but really, until you have 8 active social services facilities within a few blocks of your house, you have no right to call someone else a NIMBY. Springfield is the most supportive, diverse, welcoming, and generous neighborhood in which I have lived in Jacksonville. We just don't think we should be expected to shoulder more than our share of the social services of the city.
If I Loved You, apparently you don't want to cause an issue with one company, Sally Industries, but causing an issue for thousands of residents of a still-struggling historic neighborhood is OK with you.
Quote from: thelakelander on October 18, 2012, 08:35:14 AM
Quote from: If_I_Loved_you on October 18, 2012, 08:04:20 AM
Quote from: thelakelander on October 18, 2012, 07:46:44 AM
^I agree. It basically opens up to what Salvation Army already has in place.
The old Lee & Cates glass warehouse isn't a good idea at all! It's to close to the "Sally Corporation" we don't need to tick these people off and have them move from the area. :o
??? Doesn't sound like your familiar with what already takes place behind that old building.
I could say I do but I don't, but if you open up the Homeless Center there it will only get worst.
Agreed Debbie. Some of these posters are "trolls" though. Basically people who intentionally try to stir the pot and agitate people, with no care about what they are even talking about. There are quite a few on MJ. I don't think I've ever seen If I Loved You make a valid point in any thread ever.
Quote from: CityLife on October 18, 2012, 08:52:52 AM
Thanks for linking that Roadking. I've always thought we should consolidate our services in one central location, either in an area like the Dennis Street District that Lake has mentioned, or on a rural piece of land away from residential districts, but importantly with a bus line and free bus passes.
The homeless put a huge, huge burden on the city and its residents. I once sat through a presentation by the head of the Jail, who listed the top 10 or so most active recidivist criminals (who were all homeless/vagrants DT). They were each arrested an appalling amount of times per year. Something like 15-25 times each. This was a few years ago, but if I remember correctly, the cost of just those 10 or so to the city was something like $1 million a year in wasted JSO time, prosecution, jail bookings, jail stays, etc.
Then look at the cost to our local hospitals. Shands gets absolutely crushed by having to provide hospital services to the homeless, and I believe St. Vincents, and the Southbank hospitals get hit hard too.
Then there is the issue of downtown revitalization. Look you can spin it all you want and mock people for being afraid to live, work, and play downtown because of the homeless (I'm not)...but you cannot deny that they do hinder DT in numerous ways. And like that former homeless person said, DT isn't exactly a great atmosphere for the homeless.
So consolidate all services somewhere where ALL parties can benefit. Get Shands, St. Vincents, Baptist, etc to open a great clinic there and limit their losses. Open a mental health clinic there, a pharmacy, a VA branch. Give them everything they need from a mental health and health perspective. Then use the land to teach them sustainable agriculture practices, teach them how to manufacture things, get them GED's, and vocational training. Make sure that they have bus access to the rest of the city for job opportunities.
I could go on and on, but to keep it short, consolidating services will not just benefit downtown and Jacksonville residents, but also the cities budget, and the quality of life of its residents. Additionally, the homeless could be much better served through targeted efforts and not a scattering of services.
Hopefully the day center will just be a temporary band aid, until we can get some leadership that are willing to think big picture.
(Dennis Street District) Not going to happen citylife! >:(
Quote from: Debbie Thompson on October 18, 2012, 08:57:43 AM
Pinky, Springfield still has 4 alco houses and 4 sober houses. Four are within a block of our house. All well run and no issue for the community, but really, until you have 8 active social services facilities within a few blocks of your house, you have no right to call someone else a NIMBY. Springfield is the most supportive, diverse, welcoming, and generous neighborhood in which I have lived in Jacksonville. We just don't think we should be expected to shoulder more than our share of the social services of the city.
If I Loved You, apparently you don't want to cause an issue with one company, Sally Industries, but causing an issue for thousands of residents of a still-struggling historic neighborhood is OK with you.
Ha! You act as if the Old Armory Building is right in the middle of Springfield??? Well it isn't and we are talking about a day center D.T. 9am - 5pm 02roadking is right on the money when he said NIMBY = "not in my back yard." And I have a Major Problem with a homeless center going into the Dennis street area or any warehouse area of Jacksonville!
Quote from: If_I_Loved_you on October 18, 2012, 09:12:19 AM
And I have a Major Problem with a homeless center going into the Dennis street area or any warehouse area of Jacksonville!
Is that why you don't like the Salvation Army site on West Forsyth? Because it's in what's left of the LaVilla Warehouse District. Should Salvation Army relocate too?
Quote from: thelakelander on October 18, 2012, 09:27:36 AM
Quote from: If_I_Loved_you on October 18, 2012, 09:12:19 AM
And I have a Major Problem with a homeless center going into the Dennis street area or any warehouse area of Jacksonville!
Is that why you don't like the Salvation Army site on West Forsyth? Because it's in what's left of the LaVilla Warehouse District. Should Salvation Army relocate too?
No see I don't have a problem with this you do? But hiding the Homeless like it's going to help people that need help to me is just plain stupid. :D
Here's another location many won't like...
Shortly, the VA will be moving its clinic from 1833 Boulevard to new facilities, practically across the street. This will free up a substantial portion, if not all, of the building that has served our veterans for many years. If this location is/was good enough for our veterans it's good enough for the homeless. In addition, it is across the street from Shands Hospital where many of the indigent or homeless go for treatment. The property is owned by Shands Jacksonville Affiliates, Inc., has a market value at around $4 million and, because it is a medical facility, generates ZERO property taxes.
Perhaps in exchange for the City paying for maintenance and management, a cost that will occur where ever the center is located, and remaining on the non-taxable list, Shands Jacksonville Affiliates, Inc will consider remodeling the property to accommodate the homeless.
The location is served by JTA as well, and to sweeten the pot, JTA could agree to provide free bus service to and from the shelters and other services our City provides for free to the homeless.
Let's hear from the NIMBY's.
Ralph, that is probably a more suitable location than the Armory...but lets get real here. Not wanting a homeless center near a major park, a national historic neighborhood, and a redeveloping area, does not make anyone a NIMBY in the pejorative sense. Not even close. In fact quite a few people who don't live in Springfield are as up in arms as Springfield residents.
I'll give you $100 bucks if you find me another residential neighborhood that is fine with a homeless center being located there.
Why not just make Hemming the day center? Doesn't the same logic apply? Anyway, the Salvation Army site sounds good. As for the old VA Clinic, how about a hotel or apartment conversion with street level retail?
The old VA clinic would make that 5 social services within a block of our house. So, while we already have 4 social services providers almost lterally in our back yard, I guess I'd still be a NIMBY if I wasn't thrilled about a 5th?
The old VA clinic is pretty large. A day center doesn't need a quarter of that space.
Quote from: stephendare on October 18, 2012, 10:22:50 AM
Quote from: CityLife on October 18, 2012, 10:16:50 AM
Ralph, that is probably a more suitable location than the Armory...but lets get real here. Not wanting a homeless center near a major park, a national historic neighborhood, and a redeveloping area, does not make anyone a NIMBY in the pejorative sense. Not even close. In fact quite a few people who don't live in Springfield are as up in arms as Springfield residents.
I'll give you $100 bucks if you find me another residential neighborhood that is fine with a homeless center being located there.
Not taking sides here, but City Life that is the literal definition of NIMBY.
I said not NIMBY's in the pejorative sense...meaning said with negative connotation.
This isn't a bunch of people up in arms over a Mellow Mushroom. It's people upset over homeless services...which would be pretty high on the list of undesired uses adjacent to residential anywhere and everywhere. If virtually everyone, everywhere would oppose homeless services adjacent to their residential neighborhood, you can't pejoratively call those who feel the same way NIMBY's. More like NIABY (Not In Anyone's BackYard).
Quote from: stephendare on October 18, 2012, 11:04:26 AM
like I said, Im not taking sides. Im just pointing out that a bunch of residents not wanting something in their neighborhood as in:
QuoteI'll give you $100 bucks if you find me another residential neighborhood that is fine with (insert here) being located there.
is pretty much the textbook definition of "NIMBY"
Stephen, don't think you are quite getting the original assertion. Of course not wanting something in your back yard fits the
literal definition of a NIMBY, however I specifically said in the "
pejorative sense" exactly for that reason. You can't negatively call someone a NIMBY, if it is something you yourself, or virtually anyone would oppose in their neighborhood.
Would you call someone a NIMBY that doesn't want a nuclear reactor in their neighborhood too?
Quote from: stephendare on October 18, 2012, 11:21:00 AM
Quote from: CityLife on October 18, 2012, 11:11:48 AM
Quote from: stephendare on October 18, 2012, 11:04:26 AM
like I said, Im not taking sides. Im just pointing out that a bunch of residents not wanting something in their neighborhood as in:
QuoteI'll give you $100 bucks if you find me another residential neighborhood that is fine with (insert here) being located there.
is pretty much the textbook definition of "NIMBY"
Stephen, don't think you are quite getting the original assertion. Of course not wanting something in your back yard fits the literal definition of a NIMBY, however I specifically said in the "pejorative sense" exactly for that reason. You can't negatively call someone a NIMBY, if it is something you yourself, or virtually anyone would oppose in their neighborhood.
Would you call someone a NIMBY that doesn't want a nuclear reactor in their neighborhood too?
Interestingly, the nuclear reactor industry is the origin of the word NIMBY passing into popular usage.
Funny, Steven - although the most important reasons for locating the day center somewhere other than the Armory are not NIMBY reasons, I will be honest and admit that I personally am guilty of NIMBY feelings in this case and I described my reaction about the proposal to someone as feeling like a nuclear missile had been dropped on my house!
And I agree with City Life - it's not unreasonable for anyone to prefer that neither a nuclear reactor nor a homeless day center be located two blocks from their home, or across the street from their children's playground.
More info about the "PLAN"
According to the City, the day center should provide space, equipment and furnishings to accommodate:
• Reception area seating and laminated photo-membership ID processing
• Universal intake to access to full array of homeless services
• Office space ensuring security and confidentiality
• Restrooms, showers and storage lockers
• Clothing closet, washers and dryers
• Mailboxes and mailing address
• Telephones and community voice mail
• Computers with Internet connections
• Exercise and recreation area
• Outside recreation patio area
• Access to medical clinic
• Security
• Rotating service providers linking to other available services
Thank you Karen, http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=537799
Quote from: stephendare on October 18, 2012, 11:21:00 AM
Quote from: CityLife on October 18, 2012, 11:11:48 AM
Quote from: stephendare on October 18, 2012, 11:04:26 AM
like I said, Im not taking sides. Im just pointing out that a bunch of residents not wanting something in their neighborhood as in:
QuoteI'll give you $100 bucks if you find me another residential neighborhood that is fine with (insert here) being located there.
is pretty much the textbook definition of "NIMBY"
Stephen, don't think you are quite getting the original assertion. Of course not wanting something in your back yard fits the literal definition of a NIMBY, however I specifically said in the "pejorative sense" exactly for that reason. You can't negatively call someone a NIMBY, if it is something you yourself, or virtually anyone would oppose in their neighborhood.
Would you call someone a NIMBY that doesn't want a nuclear reactor in their neighborhood too?
Interestingly, the nuclear reactor industry is the origin of the word NIMBY passing into popular usage.
Care to cite that because I can't see anything on the WWW...
Interestingly Wikipedia, lists nuclear reactors as NIABY (which I seriously thought I had coined myself), and I imagine homeless shelters would also fall into that category.
NIMBYism is usually used pejoratively when people are narrow minded on a development...Not wanting a homeless shelter in ones neighborhood, does not make one narrow minded. But if you feel that way, feel free to pejoratively label Springfielders as NIMBY's in this instance.
Can we get back on track to a meaningful discussion?
Quote from: 02roadking on October 18, 2012, 11:31:19 AM
More info about the "PLAN"
According to the City, the day center should provide space, equipment and furnishings to accommodate:
• Reception area seating and laminated photo-membership ID processing
• Universal intake to access to full array of homeless services
• Office space ensuring security and confidentiality
• Restrooms, showers and storage lockers
• Clothing closet, washers and dryers
• Mailboxes and mailing address
• Telephones and community voice mail
• Computers with Internet connections
• Exercise and recreation area
• Outside recreation patio area
• Access to medical clinic
• Security
• Rotating service providers linking to other available services
Thank you Karen, http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=537799
Really? How can all of that be developed on a $500,000 budget?
Quote from: Debbie Thompson on October 18, 2012, 11:32:21 AM
Can we get back on track to a meaningful discussion?
It's actually quite meaningful. People who view/call Springfielders NIMBY's are trying to marginalize the argument that this site is not appropriate. Those points have now been made and the thread can move on...but it was in fact quite meaningful.
News Flash: the reality is that not everyone will ever consider any site in Jacksonville suitable for this day center. Unless of course it is far enough away from everything that they have to be bused there. Then of course, how long before JSO has AK47's out to make sure all those terrible homeless get on those buses? And what do you do when they return Home? Because they will. There are many homeless in Springfield that have lived in the area much longer than most home owners have been here.
This day center must be downtown if it is to work. And let's face it, Downtown NEEDS it to work. While I fully agree the Armory may not be the best choice, it is far from the worst choice. It will not destroy Springfield any more than the Car Wash did or the current, well run services have.
Only one way will change this situation for the better. Get behind the idea of a day center, get all the facts, as 02roadking has started to do , gather facts from other cities and present those facts with the offer of your help in making sure the day center does what we need it to do. Prove with facts, not fears, that the Armory is not the best of the options and prove to them what downtown location is. And if it is a more expensive option than their first choice, you need to have the way to get the funding for the difference.
Simply help them rather than continue to hinder them.
Quote from: stephendare on October 18, 2012, 12:10:03 PM
Quote from: CityLife on October 18, 2012, 12:07:08 PM
Quote from: Debbie Thompson on October 18, 2012, 11:32:21 AM
Can we get back on track to a meaningful discussion?
It's actually quite meaningful. People who view/call Springfielders NIMBY's are trying to marginalize the argument that this site is not appropriate. Those points have now been made and the thread can move on...but it was in fact quite meaningful.
calm down francis.
getting shrill about an imaginary attack on spring fielders doesn't really make up for being so excruciatingly wrong in matters of etymology or google expertise. ;)
The debate wasn't over google expertise or the origin of the term, which I'm happy to admit to being wrong to, but nothing changes the fact that its wrong to pejoratively call people NIMBY's, if it is in fact an issue everyone, everywhere would have a problem with in their neighborhood
And Strider, you lost me (and probably a lot of others) with the claim that the center will have no worse effects on Springfield than a car wash. Which is a preposterous claim, only made more ridiculous by you calling for people to seek facts. Perhaps you could help by providing some facts for your unsubstantiated claim that homeless centers have the same effect on neighborhoods as car washes.
Quote from: strider on October 18, 2012, 12:21:44 PM
News Flash: the reality is that not everyone will ever consider any site in Jacksonville suitable for this day center. Unless of course it is far enough away from everything that they have to be bused there. Then of course, how long before JSO has AK47's out to make sure all those terrible homeless get on those buses? And what do you do when they return Home? Because they will. There are many homeless in Springfield that have lived in the area much longer than most home owners have been here.
This day center must be downtown if it is to work. And let's face it, Downtown NEEDS it to work. While I fully agree the Armory may not be the best choice, it is far from the worst choice. It will not destroy Springfield any more than the Car Wash did or the current, well run services have.
Only one way will change this situation for the better. Get behind the idea of a day center, get all the facts, as 02roadking has started to do , gather facts from other cities and present those facts with the offer of your help in making sure the day center does what we need it to do. Prove with facts, not fears, that the Armory is not the best of the options and prove to them what downtown location is. And if it is a more expensive option than their first choice, you need to have the way to get the funding for the difference.
Simply help them rather than continue to hinder them.
I missed the meeting yesterday at city hall covering certain aspects of Hemming Park. Denise Lee, Don Redman etc held it, and invited me and others. I could not attend.
Today, someone from the media visited the bookstore, informed me that a decision had been made to introduce legislation to ban games such as cards and dominoes, stating also that the decision had been made to remove the remainder of the tables and chairs.
Not being aware of the decisions, I didn't have much time to think about my answers. He asked for my opinion, upon which I stated that I was disappointed at the two decisions. I said that they are sterilizing the park, making it unusable by all people, and that the people there now will simply stand and sit on the ground, and perhaps even bring their own fold-up tables.
In any case, it looks like the move is to attempt these actions to determine if the "campers" will avoid the park. It will be interesting to see the outcome, to see where these people will go.
I suggested that the decisions for the park would make more sense if there was a place for these people to go, such as the new facility planned by the mayor.
We will see.
City Life, the comparison between the car wash and the homeless day center is not that potential impacts, both good and bad, are the same, but rather the effect it has on the people who immediately grab the torches and pitchforks because (fill in the blank here) will destroy Springfield or Riverside or Downtown). Be it a car wash, a new convenience store, a homeless shelter or what have you, that type of response hurts the community much more the the actual car wash or homeless day center ever will. The rhetoric is many times worse than the actual truth. Case in point, the car wash has not destroyed Springfield, has it? And, don't get me wrong, Springfield is not alone in this type of response, it is just not very productive and can cause more issues than it will ever fix.
Posting that hundreds of homeless will roam the street of Springfield, that the social services turned Springfield into a slum to start with, that your children will be less safe and that, well the list can be endless , does no one any good. It is seldom true nor fact based but it is fear based and that is what is wrong. Lose the fear and try to find good solutions and people, in this case, the Major's office, may listen. Show up with torches and pitch forks and they will not in this case as they have no incentive to. They do not need the public's permission to do this.
And now, making card playing illegal in the park? Are the buses and AK47's that far behind?
Meanwhile, what about trying to find those solutions rather than argue whether you are NIMBY or not?
This thread is getting contentious. Perhaps we could discuss alternate solutions instead. For example, the Forsyth Street location by Salvation Army is near other homeless services on the west side of the CBD, and not near a residential neighborhood. It would seem to be a good solution.
Quote from: Debbie Thompson on October 18, 2012, 03:14:06 PM
This thread is getting contentious. Perhaps we could discuss alternate solutions instead. For example, the Forsyth Street location by Salvation Army is near other homeless services on the west side of the CBD, and not near a residential neighborhood. It would seem to be a good solution.
"Not in my back yard" 8)
Quote from: strider on October 18, 2012, 01:36:51 PM
Meanwhile, what about trying to find those solutions rather than argue whether you are NIMBY or not?
Lets see in this thread alone, I've mentioned the need to centralize homeless services, ideally away from DT and provided a quick explanation why (its a view many hold btw, including Audrey Moran), I posed a list of questions/implications that the city needs to factor in the decision making process, I pointed out that the Mayor has someone who is completely under qualified leading this process, I pointed out that the city needs to do a fiscal impact analysis, cost benefit analysis, or Multi-Goal Analysis (which are all real things that big boy cities and professionals use), I've pointed out that the Mayor's office needs to make this an inclusive process and factor in the opinions of stakeholders, pointed out the very real implications for the Hogan's Creek Greenway, and that it is foolish to put homeless services next to a brand new children's playground.
If the city hired an outside consultant to help them with this process, the consultant would list virtually everything above (save the centralized homeless services question) for the decision-making process.
What more can I do? Form a military Junta and storm City Hall? Inception Mayor Brown? Teach the Mayor's office how do Alternatives Analysis (which I will do btw)? When the dust settles I will be cordially reaching out to Chris Hand and the Mayor's Office, but other than that, there's really not much we can do as citizens here, as it has not been an inclusive process.
As to the rest of your post...I'll politely and respectfully decline response, as this thread has had enough worthless debate...which Debbie was actually correct about earlier. I should have known better than to get into a meaningless debate about semantics.
Quote from: CityLife on October 18, 2012, 04:40:13 PM
Quote from: strider on October 18, 2012, 01:36:51 PM
Meanwhile, what about trying to find those solutions rather than argue whether you are NIMBY or not?
Lets see in this thread alone, I've mentioned the need to centralize homeless services, ideally away from DT and provided a quick explanation why (its a view many hold btw, including Audrey Moran), I posed a list of questions/implications that the city needs to factor in the decision making process, I pointed out that the Mayor has someone who is completely under qualified leading this process, I pointed out that the city needs to do a fiscal impact analysis, cost benefit analysis, or Multi-Goal Analysis (which are all real things that big boy cities and professionals use), I've pointed out that the Mayor's office needs to make this an inclusive process and factor in the opinions of stakeholders, pointed out the very real implications for the Hogan's Creek Greenway, and that it is foolish to put homeless services next to a brand new children's playground.
If the city hired an outside consultant to help them with this process, the consultant would list virtually everything above (save the centralized homeless services question) for the decision-making process.
What more can I do? Form a military Junta and storm City Hall? Inception Mayor Brown? Teach the Mayor's office how do Alternatives Analysis (which I will do btw)? When the dust settles I will be cordially reaching out to Chris Hand and the Mayor's Office, but other than that, there's really not much we can do as citizens here, as it has not been an inclusive process.
As to the rest of your post...I'll politely and respectfully decline response, as this thread has had enough worthless debate...which Debbie was actually correct about earlier. I should have known better than to get into a meaningless debate about semantics.
I don't need to slap "Stephen Dare" on the back but when it comes to Debate he has you beat by far. City Life good luck on helping find a place for the Homeless Center and if it's not the Old Armory Building. I truly hope we care more about the people that need the help and not from all of the people even me that has said "not in my back yard.";D
Agree, City Life. These are the same old troublemakers dragging out the same old crud and trying to start flame wars. I'm ignoring the crud henceforth. Le's gets productive about discussing a solution that will meet the needs of BOTH the homeless and the historic neighborhood of Springfield. There are other solutions available, and that's what we need to talk about.
Strider, Tacalache, Lake, and others with real ideas, suggest you do the same. Ignore those just trying to stir up trouble. Don't even respond to the crud. Skip over it. Don't even read it. Let's come up with suggestions that will work for everyone.
Quote from: If_I_Loved_you on October 18, 2012, 09:40:06 AM
Quote from: thelakelander on October 18, 2012, 09:27:36 AM
Quote from: If_I_Loved_you on October 18, 2012, 09:12:19 AM
And I have a Major Problem with a homeless center going into the Dennis street area or any warehouse area of Jacksonville!
Is that why you don't like the Salvation Army site on West Forsyth? Because it's in what's left of the LaVilla Warehouse District. Should Salvation Army relocate too?
No see I don't have a problem with this you do? But hiding the Homeless like it's going to help people that need help to me is just plain stupid. :D
What problem do I have? I'm fine with the Salvation Army site. It makes a lot of sense, given what the adjacent property is currently used for. However, the armory site was silly for a number of reasons, already stated, including it being the most expensive option.
Lake would the zoning support it at the Salvation Army site (Old Lee and Cates)?
The Armory will not be the location. Far too many issues. You can cross that one out.
928 N. Liberty Street is next to the Armory, closer to residential, stll across the street from new parks and childrens playground., and still widens the footprint of mass homeless services into a revitalizing neighborhood. Three buildings at this address are being considered individually.
Quote from: sheclown on October 18, 2012, 05:52:51 PM
Lake would the zoning support it at the Salvation Army site (Old Lee and Cates)?
The site's zoning is CCG-2. The use is permissible by exception.
Quote from: thelakelander on October 18, 2012, 06:02:15 PM
Quote from: sheclown on October 18, 2012, 05:52:51 PM
Lake would the zoning support it at the Salvation Army site (Old Lee and Cates)?
The site's zoning is CCG-2. The use is permissible by exception.
I suspect the fact that the Armory will not require an exception is part of the reason it is seriously being considered, assuming it is not a done deal, of course. Remember that an exception application will open it up for public input and some group will be against it no matter where it is.
Quote from: Bill Hoff on October 18, 2012, 05:55:24 PM
The Armory will not be the location. Far too many issues. You can cross that one out.
Hmmm. Inside info to prove this or just a hopeful post? 'cause the inside info seems to have been sayin' the opposite...
Then reasonable people will have to rule the day. The drop in center is needed. The Lee and Cates warehouse location makes the most sense to serve both the homeless AND not cause detriment to Springfield.
Quote from: strider on October 18, 2012, 06:14:18 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on October 18, 2012, 06:02:15 PM
Quote from: sheclown on October 18, 2012, 05:52:51 PM
Lake would the zoning support it at the Salvation Army site (Old Lee and Cates)?
The site's zoning is CCG-2. The use is permissible by exception.
I suspect the fact that the Armory will not require an exception is part of the reason it is seriously being considered, assuming it is not a done deal, of course. Remember that an exception application will open it up for public input and some group will be against it no matter where it is.
I can't imagine that applying for an exception would be more difficult than coming up with nearly $10 million in renovation costs for a structure that appears to be significantly larger than the space required for a day center.
Live blogging from the SPAR annual meeting. Mayor Brown just walked into a hornets nest and told the room of about 50 that the shelter wouldn't be in Springfield.
I give him a lot of credit for stepping up and being responsive to the public.
Nice of the Mayor to attend the meeting.
Just came into my Metro Jacksonville email account:
QuoteMAYOR BROWN ADDRESSES HOMELESS RESOURCE CENTER
JACKSONVILLE, Fla., Oct. 18, 2012 â€"
Mayor Alvin Brown made a surprise visit to the Springfield Preservation and Revitalization Council annual meeting to address his commitment to a pilot project to open a resource center for homeless people.
Mayor Brown told the council and residents he has made no recommendation for a location, and the former Armory, 815 N. Market St., will not be considered.
"As mayor, I will not support a resource center at the Armory," Mayor Brown said at Thursday night’s meeting. "Neither I nor the Emergency Services & Homeless Coalition of Northeast Florida have recommended any location."
Mayor Brown committed to supporting the opening of a day-time resource center for the homeless as a pilot project. The center would provide opportunities for services to help transient people as part of the mayor’s ongoing commitment to improve the quality of life in Jacksonville.
The six-month pilot project would operate the resource center three days a week, 8 a.m. to 5 p.m., providing essential services but no beds.
The city will continue a transparent and inclusive process to consider and recommend a location for the resource center. Throughout the year, the administration has worked with non-profit providers, the Sheriff’s Office, the State Attorney’s Office, and other groups to consider suggested locations and services.
Mayor Brown encouraged non-profit providers, the private sector and residents to continue offering ideas and suggestions on a location and services.
"Our work has been inclusive and transparent, and it will continue to be," Mayor Brown said.
Mayor Brown is committed to elevating the city’s urban core and protecting quality of life as part of his efforts to reinvigorate Downtown for the benefit of all residents.
Quote from: CityLife on October 16, 2012, 03:02:43 PM
Word on the street is that Mayor Brown is considering opening a homeless center in the historic
Armory Building on the border of Downtown and Springfield. This building is city owned and is adjacent to Confederate/Klutho Park, which should be the crown jewel of Jacksonville's urban park system (we have a lovely vision plan for the park). For those that don't know, the Armory Building is the brick building next to the Dog Park. Can someone please post a picture?
Thoughts? I'll bite my tongue for now...
Funny if you wouldn't have open this post with your Rumor? And waited until the Facts came out we wouldn't have wasted are voices on this false rumor?
How wonderful for the mayor to do this!!!!
Quote from: If_I_Loved_you on October 18, 2012, 07:20:56 PM
Quote from: CityLife on October 16, 2012, 03:02:43 PM
Word on the street is that Mayor Brown is considering opening a homeless center in the historic
Armory Building on the border of Downtown and Springfield. This building is city owned and is adjacent to Confederate/Klutho Park, which should be the crown jewel of Jacksonville's urban park system (we have a lovely vision plan for the park). For those that don't know, the Armory Building is the brick building next to the Dog Park. Can someone please post a picture?
Thoughts? I'll bite my tongue for now...
Funny if you wouldn't have open this post with your Rumor? And waited until the Facts came out we wouldn't have wasted are voices on this false rumor?
The Mayor and his staff were absolutely considering that site, but after getting bombarded, they have now reconsidered.
The TU wouldn't have ran articles and the Mayor wouldn't have come apologized to a room full of Springfielders tonight if that wasn't the case.
Speaking of the armory though, any ideas of what to do with it?
Classy guy.
Great question Lake. I think this has opened up some discussion about better uses of the property. Things like a community center, museum, performance venue, etc. Perhaps Miss Fixit could share some thoughts, as I believe she's been floating some ideas on Facebook.
It has an auditorium
What is the 9.5 mil number for? Flood damage? Mold?
Good for the mayor. Also, as I noticed it was mentioned that this was to be a 6 month pilot program, so does that mean the initial location will be a temporary one? I don't remember seeing this in the various recent articles. Makes it seem a properly zoned, ready to use place is needed, not a place needing lots of renovations for six months of use. That might be why the Armory was under consideration.
If there is to be a discussion about possible uses for the Armory, can someone get the report that everyone is quoting the 9.8 mill from?
Heh. I just wanted to post one of my favorite acronyms, "BANANA":
Build Absolutely Nothing Anywhere Near Anything
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NIMBY#BANANA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NIMBY#BANANA)
Quote from: strider on October 19, 2012, 06:59:40 AM
Good for the mayor. Also, as I noticed it was mentioned that this was to be a 6 month pilot program, so does that mean the initial location will be a temporary one? I don't remember seeing this in the various recent articles. Makes it seem a properly zoned, ready to use place is needed, not a place needing lots of renovations for six months of use. That might be why the Armory was under consideration.
If there is to be a discussion about possible uses for the Armory, can someone get the report that everyone is quoting the 9.8 mill from?
Here you go Strider...
QuoteThe sites being looked at are all in or near the downtown area and range from empty lots to the 80,000-square-foot armory.
All of them have pluses and minuses, DeCamp said, with the negatives including not being city owned, not having parking or needing large amounts of work to be usable.
The Armory may fall into that latter category. A 2011 analysis done when the structure was being considered as a home for the Supervisor of Elections Office estimated the cost of fixing it up at $9.6 million.
“This historic building, in its current physical condition, is in a dire need of a major renovation and will require quality maintenance afterwards,†the report said.
Among the work the repair said needed to be done were removal of asbestos, lead-based paint and mold; the installation of new air conditioning, telephone and fire protection systems; and modifications to make the place accessible for those with disabilities, among other things.
full article: http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2012-10-17/story/cost-will-be-big-factor-jacksonvilles-selection-homeless-day-center-site
Given the extremely high cost of rehab and various environmental/health issues that are apparently associated with the building, I think the only real way to preserve the Armory is for the city to either give it away to a non-profit (with some type of clause ensuring results) or a free long term lease to a non-profit (perhaps even with a revenue sharing clause of some sort). I just don't see anyone in the private market taking on the project anytime remotely soon, even if given the building for free. So let local non-profits step up, repair the building, and use it for something beneficial to the community, and perhaps even the entire city.
Rehabbing that building would be ideal for a CDBG grant, which could even occur over multiple years. Springfield groups and residents already do quite a bit of free labor for worthy projects (Make It Happen, Block Captains Cleanups), heck SPAR has recently done a good bit of rehab on its building for little to no cost, with free labor and with a grant. That building was once a major burden for the organization, but is now operating at a profit, and is helping some organizations and businesses get their feet off the ground.
Similarly, a collaboration of local non-profits could truly make the Armory building a gem and a major boost to Springfield/DT. It could be a multi-use facility used for all sorts of things like performing arts, live/work spaces for artists, a live music venue, community meeting space, business incubator, theater, and so on. This isn't just pie in the sky thinking either. It truly could happen. Heck, JoAnn Tredennick practically got the SPAR Building rehabbed by herself (with a little help from others), imagine what a collaborative, community wide effort could accomplish. I do hope that the discussions on the facility will lead to further dialogue with the city on long term solutions for the building, because if a plan isn't put into place soon, the building may have no hope in 5 or 10 years.
I read a few weeks back in the Business Journal I believe, that the Florida Ballet which is across the street was looking to expand. Perhaps they could be a partner?
The city does not seem to want to do anything with the properties they own. They would rather atch them rot or grow tall grass on them. Why would this one be any different?
General questions. As I stated in the other thread, I spoke with someone who moved to Jax from Chicago. When asked about their homeless problem, them seem to logical things. He stated that there is a spot that was known for having homeless camps, so they fenced it off. Not only that, but when they catch the homeless where they dont belong they arrest them, or just pick them up and dropp them off WAYY outside of downtown. It got me to thinking about all this city owned property that is for sale and the homeless usually camp out. Why not fence it off and have the for sale on the outside of the fence? There are alot of attractive fencing options out there. That would also lose in those lots so they cant be viewed, since the city will probably not be cutting them anyways. ;D
Several businesses, non-profits, and art groups were approached about the Armory over a year ago. They were told that they would need a minimum of 1.2 million dollars for code compliance, mold remediation, and necessary renovations (including a lack of climate control). All of the parties who have expressed an interest in the building thus far have found not only starting costs but also continued operating costs too high -- especially in a market where they must be realistic about local fundraising potential.
A multi-use space arts space would be great, but it would need repeat high-dollar angel funders (or city investment) to work.
Just put Nicole in there with a case of Red Bull. ;D (But do it when I am OUT OF TOWN. )
Southern Rock Hall of Fame.
Just out of curiosity... Who was the architect for the Armory?
Here is information about the Armory from Jacksonville's Architectural Heritage, which identifies the architect as W.B. Talley:
D-89
OLD DUVAL COUNTY ARMORY
(Maxwell G. Snyder Armory; Jacksonville Recreation and
Public Affairs Department)
851 NORTH MARKET STREET
DATE: 1915-1916
ARCHITECT: Talley & Summer
BUILDER: F. W. Long
As early as 1835, local military companies were formed in Jacksonville to protect the populace from marauding Indians. Until the 1880's, when all Florida troops were consolidated, a dozen of these local armies were organized in the county. They quelled riots, fought against the Northern troops in the Civil War, and generally were on call to keep the peace. These various military organizations had colorful names such as Jacksonville Light Infantry, the Duval County Mounted Volunteer Guard, the St. Johns Greys, Wilson's Battery, the Jacksonville Rifles, and the Duval County Cowboys. These local companies occupied different buildings as armories until 1897 when a three-story armory for all of the troops was built at the southwest corner of Market and Adams Streets. This building was destroyed in the 1901 Fire, and a new armory was built, using the remaining walls of the burned out courthouse (D-46). This building proved inadequate for the purpose, and in 1914 a $150,000 bond issue was floated to construct the present building. The building-permit application lists the architects as Talley & Summer, although a plaque on the building lists only W. B. Talley as the architect. Upon its completion in 1916, the armory was reported to have Florida's largest military drill hall. This building is monumental and fortress-like, with battlemented towers and parapets. A carved stone shield with the emblem of the Florida National Guard tops the central pavilion. The brick work on the upper story displays several fanciful designs, including corbeling below the parapet. The dramatic arched entrance at the center of the facade echoes this corbeled effect. The name of the Duval County armory was changed in 1962 to the Maxwell G. Snyder Armory, honoring the commanding general of the National Guard's 48th Armored Division. In 1973 the city's Recreation and Public Affairs Department took over the old armory building. Although somewhat isolated from other downtown buildings, it is an interesting part of our city's military and architectural heritage.
Does anyone have any pictures from inside?
Quote from: Debbie Thompson on October 18, 2012, 08:57:43 AM
Pinky, Springfield still has 4 alco houses and 4 sober houses. Four are within a block of our house. All well run and no issue for the community, but really, until you have 8 active social services facilities within a few blocks of your house, you have no right to call someone else a NIMBY. Springfield is the most supportive, diverse, welcoming, and generous neighborhood in which I have lived in Jacksonville. We just don't think we should be expected to shoulder more than our share of the social services of the city.
If I Loved You, apparently you don't want to cause an issue with one company, Sally Industries, but causing an issue for thousands of residents of a still-struggling historic neighborhood is OK with you.
I live downtown; there are tons of homeless shelters within a few blocks of me. *ALL* of them, actually, so don't talk to me about a neighborhood having to "shoulder more than our load". Downtown shoulders the vast majority of the homeless "load" for North Florida.
So now that we've established my "right" (by your measure) to speak on the subject, I shall continue.
I drove by the Armory today, the first time I ever really paid attention to the building, and was struck by what a great old building it is. It deserves to be used for *something*, and I think it would make an excellent Day Center.
I also noted that it's not actually in Springfield at all; it's barely across Union St! Considering the location of the shelters here in town it's ideally located to serve the homeless.
Beyond not actually being in Springfield, I can't imagine how it would ever cause more homeless people to make their way up to Springfield at all. I mean, these people are hoofing it, Shoe-Leather Express, anywhere they go, they're walking. It's not like they're going to go hiking up into Springfield to cause mayhem and destroy the fabric of society; there's no reason for them to expend the energy.
It's specifically that "forced efficiency of movement" that would benefit downtown, by focusing the daily migration of the homeless on the northern edges of downtown, and away from the core. It wouldn't be necessary to burn Hemming Plaza and salt the earth if the Day Center was located at The Armory; there simply wouldn't be any reason for the homeless folks to hike over to Hemming.
I realize that it may make me the minority here on MJ, but I totally support using the Armory for a Day Center. Seems a perfect location to me. Especially since it's downtown, and officially in my backyard. Guess that makes me a YIMBY?
A day center doesn't need 80,000 square feet. That's overkill, both space and money wise for Jacksonville taxpayers.
Quote from: thelakelander on October 21, 2012, 08:44:01 PM
A day center doesn't need 80,000 square feet. That's overkill, both space and money wise for Jacksonville taxpayers.
But it would make an excellent Southern Rock Hall of Fame.
Quote from: Miss Fixit on October 21, 2012, 10:00:25 AM
Here is information about the Armory from Jacksonville's Architectural Heritage, which identifies the architect as W.B. Talley:
Speaking of W.B. Talley. Talley's wife and daughter were killed in a train accident in 1919, resulting in Talley deciding to leave Jacksonville. After leaving Jacksonville, he became a prominent architect in Central Florida.
QuoteDaughter of prominent architect W.B. Talley, Sarah was killed by an unseen train when her mother drove the automobile they were riding in into its path. The accident occurred on Old Orange Park Road, now Roosevelt Blvd, near Fishweir Creek. There were 5 children between the ages of 12 and 14 years old in the car, plus Mrs. Talley. All were killed instantly except Sarah, who died in the hospital the next day. Closed storm curtains on the automobile was determined to be the reason Mrs. Talley did not see the oncoming train.
http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=55174566
QuoteAfter picking Christmas greenery in the woods, prominent Springfield residents, miles from home, crossed the railroad tracks south of Fishweir Creek on the old Orange Park Road, now Roosevelt Boulevard, a scene laden with undetected danger.
At 4:40 p.m., Dec. 21, 1919, Atlantic Coast Line passenger train No. 85 hurled through their automobile as the car traveled toward a small, iron bridge over the creek. It was not the first or last accident between train and car on Orange Park Road.
The merry group had driven to their outing, southwest of Jacksonville, from homes north of town on Boulevard, West Seventh Street, Silver Street and other nearby addresses to gather holly and seasonal foliage. On the shell road in the St. Johns Park area, inclement weather dictated the passengers close the car's storm curtains, and as determined from the words of the last to die, they neither saw nor heard the train.
Six people were killed at this Orange Park Road railroad crossing on Dec. 21, 1919. Special from Florida Archives
Six people rode in the large Mitchell touring car, a popular make of the time despite the company's recent bankruptcy. The train's engineer, by all accounts a reliable and seasoned performer, stated the Mitchell simply drove onto the railroad tracks 50 feet in front of his engine. Although he blew his siren, had the car passengers heard the horn, time was well past his ability to stop the train.
full article: http://jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/031304/neR_15051422.shtml
Thanks Lake. Interesting story.
Quote from: Pinky on October 21, 2012, 08:30:35 PM
Quote from: Debbie Thompson on October 18, 2012, 08:57:43 AM
Pinky, Springfield still has 4 alco houses and 4 sober houses. Four are within a block of our house. All well run and no issue for the community, but really, until you have 8 active social services facilities within a few blocks of your house, you have no right to call someone else a NIMBY. Springfield is the most supportive, diverse, welcoming, and generous neighborhood in which I have lived in Jacksonville. We just don't think we should be expected to shoulder more than our share of the social services of the city.
If I Loved You, apparently you don't want to cause an issue with one company, Sally Industries, but causing an issue for thousands of residents of a still-struggling historic neighborhood is OK with you.
I live downtown; there are tons of homeless shelters within a few blocks of me. *ALL* of them, actually, so don't talk to me about a neighborhood having to "shoulder more than our load". Downtown shoulders the vast majority of the homeless "load" for North Florida.
So now that we've established my "right" (by your measure) to speak on the subject, I shall continue.
I drove by the Armory today, the first time I ever really paid attention to the building, and was struck by what a great old building it is. It deserves to be used for *something*, and I think it would make an excellent Day Center.
I also noted that it's not actually in Springfield at all; it's barely across Union St! Considering the location of the shelters here in town it's ideally located to serve the homeless.
Beyond not actually being in Springfield, I can't imagine how it would ever cause more homeless people to make their way up to Springfield at all. I mean, these people are hoofing it, Shoe-Leather Express, anywhere they go, they're walking. It's not like they're going to go hiking up into Springfield to cause mayhem and destroy the fabric of society; there's no reason for them to expend the energy.
It's specifically that "forced efficiency of movement" that would benefit downtown, by focusing the daily migration of the homeless on the northern edges of downtown, and away from the core. It wouldn't be necessary to burn Hemming Plaza and salt the earth if the Day Center was located at The Armory; there simply wouldn't be any reason for the homeless folks to hike over to Hemming.
I realize that it may make me the minority here on MJ, but I totally support using the Armory for a Day Center. Seems a perfect location to me. Especially since it's downtown, and officially in my backyard. Guess that makes me a YIMBY?
You couldn't be any more minority than I am, Pinky. ;)
I stand corrected, and stand down. I always manage to hurt peoples' feelings when discussing this subject. I have friends who run some of the Springfield facilities - and run them very well. I stuck my foot in my mouth - again - and said things, not intended to be hurtful, but hurtful nevertheless. Clearly I'm out of my element on this subject.
The Armory was not the best location for a permanent day center. Perhaps no existing, ready to use structure is. I know a figure of 9.8 mil was thrown out to re-hab the Armory and then in another post, someone claimed 1.6 mil., but I doubt very much would have been spent to make it suitable for a 6 month pilot program and that is most likely why it was under consideration. While many have complained about the lack of due diligence on the part of the Mayor's office, once it came out that this was a 6 month pilot program, the choices made more sense. It seems the handling of the information was worse than the choices they were making. In any case, the Armory is off the table and now badly needs another use.
Well ... I suggest for that kind of money, the City rehabbing the Annie Lytle School and using it as a day center, since it seems no one else is going to step up, let alone help , but I doubt anyone agrees and the neighbors, of course , in the neighborhood don't want homeless in their neighborhood. so this is probably another bad idea that no one will embrace.
Pinky, I rescind my original statement about the Armory and agree with you. Its better than the building sitting empty and following the fate of so many historic buildings in Jacksonville.