According to Mellow Mushroom's website www.igetmellow.com, John Valentino has met the parking requirement (unlike the rest of the Avondale restaurants). So the question now is: will We Love Avondale, LLC leave it alone or will they come up with another tactic to kill the plan?
Who's taking bets on this one?
Oh god, another MM thread....
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on September 17, 2012, 06:42:52 PM
Who's taking bets on this one?
The odds have to be set at something astronomical - 50/1, 75/1 for this thing to get passed for my to take it. Otherwise, I'll take 3/1 that they'll be back in review in another 60 days.
We'll be sharing RAP's updated position on Mellow Mushroom as the front page article tomorrow. In short, there are some more recommendations for Mellow.
Quote from: thelakelander on September 17, 2012, 08:21:11 PM
We'll be sharing RAP's updated position on Mellow Mushroom as the front page article tomorrow. In short, there are some more recommendations for Mellow.
Shocking
Quote from: thelakelander on September 17, 2012, 08:21:11 PM
We'll be sharing RAP's updated position on Mellow Mushroom as the front page article tomorrow. In short, there are some more recommendations for Mellow.
Let me guess, they want them to bulldoze everything and sell the land to McDonald's?
Quote from: thelakelander on September 17, 2012, 08:21:11 PM
We'll be sharing RAP's updated position on Mellow Mushroom as the front page article tomorrow. In short, there are some more recommendations for Mellow.
In news that surprises absolutely no one...
Quote from: thelakelander on September 17, 2012, 08:21:11 PM
We'll be sharing RAP's updated position on Mellow Mushroom as the front page article tomorrow. In short, there are some more recommendations for Mellow.
And with that, we go from sublime to ridiculous... Its rapidly becoming obvious that RAP and WLA are nothing more than shills for a small group of Avondale restaurant owners who are terrified of Mellow Mushroom kicking their asses.
Disgusting.
Here's the revised September version of the proposed Mellow Mushroom facade:
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Urban-Issues/Mellow-Mushroom-Avondale/i-zXF5vKD/0/L/FINALMM12101Mellow-Avondale-L.jpg)
QuoteHere's the revised September version of the proposed Mellow Mushroom facade:
Anything other than the way 'Town/Benham's looks right now, is going to cause a lot of concern, look at it the way Steve and Frank have with their locations, Brick/Bluefish. They could not build a new facade, so why should John be allowed to do so?
I am not saying this is going to be the way it plays out, but everytime John adds something new or tries to get a leg up on another restaurant in Avondale, it brings people back to what Mojo #4 did, with their buildout and expansion of an outside seating area. John's design is bigger and newer, and I can see why the old guard has an issue with it, right or wrong.
This process has got to be draining, both mentally and financially on MM, why not just open up shop in the space and use the space they have available, not making any changes to the facade? I want the MM, and I don't want to see this dragged through another year.
Quote from: mtraininjax on September 18, 2012, 05:13:59 PM
QuoteHere's the revised September version of the proposed Mellow Mushroom facade:
Anything other than the way 'Town/Benham's looks right now, is going to cause a lot of concern, look at it the way Steve and Frank have with their locations, Brick/Bluefish. They could not build a new facade, so why should John be allowed to do so?
I am not saying this is going to be the way it plays out, but everytime John adds something new or tries to get a leg up on another restaurant in Avondale, it brings people back to what Mojo #4 did, with their buildout and expansion of an outside seating area. John's design is bigger and newer, and I can see why the old guard has an issue with it, right or wrong.
This process has got to be draining, both mentally and financially on MM, why not just open up shop in the space and use the space they have available, not making any changes to the facade? I want the MM, and I don't want to see this dragged through another year.
"Steve and Frank have with their locations, Brick/Bluefish. They could not build a new facade" Why not the Bluefish could redo his whole building and I bet not have to go through the BS MM has had to do. Why is the Brick and Bluefish so afraid of Mellow Mushroom? For the most part it's a pizza place, is it the bar that has the other Avondale restaurants up in arms. Mtrain you say you want the MM but some how I really can't believe you do?
I'm really hoping the suits at Hooter's are paying attention - Monte's would make an awesome Hooter's.
Not that I even like the place, but I'd like to see WLA fight that one.
QuoteWhy is the Brick and Bluefish so afraid of Mellow Mushroom? For the most part it's a pizza place, is it the bar that has the other Avondale restaurants up in arms. Mtrain you say you want the MM but some how I really can't believe you do?
I really do want MM, but put yourself in the shoes of the other restaurants. Why should they give MM a competitive advantage of a newer look, newer design, when they had to work within the spaces they had to begin with at their addresses? The newest kid on the block, Mojo's, is already taking business away from each, no matter what they say, and the belief with the restaurants is that Mojo lied about their original design and built something bigger than the original plans. They did take 2 physical shops (3 if you count that one was already 2 shops combined) and consolidate into 1 space.
Think about if you had an established business, played by the rules, and someone on the block had the desire to trump you with new plans for a new design and new neon and new items that you could not have because you played by the rules, you'd be apprehensive as well. Blame Rap, blame WLA, blame me, but the fact that MM wants to do something new, is the driving factor here. Maybe a 7-11 would have been a better deal for that corner? Still might be.....
Again, nothing says MM cannot live within the space at 'town/Benham's right now. They could do as all the other restaurants have done and work within their existing space, or continue down this path and hope for a compromise. I want MM, I still think it will happen, just a question of when.
Quote from: mtraininjax on September 19, 2012, 12:36:31 PM
QuoteWhy is the Brick and Bluefish so afraid of Mellow Mushroom? For the most part it's a pizza place, is it the bar that has the other Avondale restaurants up in arms. Mtrain you say you want the MM but some how I really can't believe you do?
I really do want MM, but put yourself in the shoes of the other restaurants. Why should they give MM a competitive advantage of a newer look, newer design, when they had to work within the spaces they had to begin with at their addresses? The newest kid on the block, Mojo's, is already taking business away from each, no matter what they say, and the belief with the restaurants is that Mojo lied about their original design and built something bigger than the original plans. They did take 2 physical shops (3 if you count that one was already 2 shops combined) and consolidate into 1 space.
Think about if you had an established business, played by the rules, and someone on the block had the desire to trump you with new plans for a new design and new neon and new items that you could not have because you played by the rules, you'd be apprehensive as well. Blame Rap, blame WLA, blame me, but the fact that MM wants to do something new, is the driving factor here. Maybe a 7-11 would have been a better deal for that corner? Still might be.....
Again, nothing says MM cannot live within the space at 'town/Benham's right now. They could do as all the other restaurants have done and work within their existing space, or continue down this path and hope for a compromise. I want MM, I still think it will happen, just a question of when.
This is, without a doubt, one of the most absurd posts I've seen on MetroJax. And that's including Know Growths incomprehensible nonsense...
Why should the existing restaurants have to compete with a newer, nicer restaurant?!? Uh, because that's life?? If they're concerned about their inability to compete they clearly should step up their game, not remain mediocre and just obstruct a stronger competitor. And really, The Brick had to "work with their existing space"??! Wrong. They gutted that building and completely rebuilt it, including majorly changing the front elevation. Biscottis expanded into adjacent space as well, completely gutting and revamping the buildings in the process.
Furthermore, might I point out that Mellow Mushrooms original plan *was* to use the existing buildings, but your Avondale buddies forced him to build a new building instead. For you to now cite that as Mellow having some unfair competitive advantage because of their meddling is ridiculous. I would suggest that the situation is 100% the opposite of what you contend; that The Brick et al have an enormous competitive advantage in that they didn't have to deal with the parking and other bullshit issues that are being continuously thrown in Valentino's path.
Quote from: mtraininjax on September 19, 2012, 12:36:31 PM
QuoteWhy is the Brick and Bluefish so afraid of Mellow Mushroom? For the most part it's a pizza place, is it the bar that has the other Avondale restaurants up in arms. Mtrain you say you want the MM but some how I really can't believe you do?
I really do want MM, but put yourself in the shoes of the other restaurants. Why should they give MM a competitive advantage of a newer look, newer design, when they had to work within the spaces they had to begin with at their addresses? The newest kid on the block, Mojo's, is already taking business away from each, no matter what they say, and the belief with the restaurants is that Mojo lied about their original design and built something bigger than the original plans. They did take 2 physical shops (3 if you count that one was already 2 shops combined) and consolidate into 1 space.
Think about if you had an established business, played by the rules, and someone on the block had the desire to trump you with new plans for a new design and new neon and new items that you could not have because you played by the rules, you'd be apprehensive as well. Blame Rap, blame WLA, blame me, but the fact that MM wants to do something new, is the driving factor here. Maybe a 7-11 would have been a better deal for that corner? Still might be.....
Again, nothing says MM cannot live within the space at 'town/Benham's right now. They could do as all the other restaurants have done and work within their existing space, or continue down this path and hope for a compromise. I want MM, I still think it will happen, just a question of when.
I agree with Pinky and I would take it further to say that this is worse than the Bostech rants of old. This is the most moronic grouping of letters I have ever seen a poster try to submit as logical thought in my entire life. This represents the arrogance and the laziness of WLA. They think they can serve up unfounded, unclever, and just plain idiotic lies and nobody will try to stop them. You do realize what you're advocating is socialism, right?
The fact that you actually said that being newer is a competitive advantage shows your ignorance. What restaurant has won awards for simply being new? Being new gets you nowhere, but having a quality product does. If Mellow offers a superior product to the Brick, that is the Brick's fault, not MM. If the Brick is scared that Mellow will have a better product, they should step up their game. There is nothing preventing them from improving except for their own laziness. Improving their product would actually be easier than engaging in this legal he said she said BS.
I find it funny that these guys are afraid of a pizza restaurant. Has the product served dropped that low that they don't have confidence in their own abilities?
The Brick must know they are over rated. Now they are scared to death.
Quote from: mtraininjax on September 19, 2012, 12:36:31 PM
QuoteWhy is the Brick and Bluefish so afraid of Mellow Mushroom? For the most part it's a pizza place, is it the bar that has the other Avondale restaurants up in arms. Mtrain you say you want the MM but some how I really can't believe you do?
I really do want MM, but put yourself in the shoes of the other restaurants. Why should they give MM a competitive advantage of a newer look, newer design, when they had to work within the spaces they had to begin with at their addresses? The newest kid on the block, Mojo's, is already taking business away from each, no matter what they say, and the belief with the restaurants is that Mojo lied about their original design and built something bigger than the original plans. They did take 2 physical shops (3 if you count that one was already 2 shops combined) and consolidate into 1 space.
Think about if you had an established business, played by the rules, and someone on the block had the desire to trump you with new plans for a new design and new neon and new items that you could not have because you played by the rules, you'd be apprehensive as well. Blame Rap, blame WLA, blame me, but the fact that MM wants to do something new, is the driving factor here. Maybe a 7-11 would have been a better deal for that corner? Still might be.....
Again, nothing says MM cannot live within the space at 'town/Benham's right now. They could do as all the other restaurants have done and work within their existing space, or continue down this path and hope for a compromise. I want MM, I still think it will happen, just a question of when.
Are you telling me if bluefish wanted to change his front facade he couldn't. I don't buy this for a second and why didn't someone else buy the old gas station, to me this would have been a No Brainer. And just because you have an established business doesn't give you the right to be a BULLY! And playing by the rules is this what Avondale is doing give me a break. If Mellow Mushroom gets to build what it wants the owner is going to have to make a lot of money to keep himself afloat. Avondale is a lot like the City of Jacksonville you can't call both sides of the coin?
BTW- The "Support the 'Shroom" page has gained over 1000 likes in the past few hours today. They haven't slandered anybody, they haven't spread any lies, they just asked for support and the community has given it to them in overwhelming numbers.
Quote from: thelakelander on September 19, 2012, 02:11:25 PM
I find it funny that these guys are afraid of a pizza restaurant. Has the product served dropped that low that they don't have confidence in their own abilities?
See that's where I get the most confused... The Brick turns out a good meal. It's a nice place, with a good wine list, good servers and a decent vibe. It's completely different than a pizza place. Same goes for Bluefin. Good solid place, nothing like a pizzeria. Biscottis has amazing deserts, and while I'm not a huge fan of their food, I know many people who find it excellent. The Fox is a Jacksonville institution which, in spite of it's annoying owner, turns out a decent breakfast. None of them are anything like Mellow Mushroom, nor is Mellow anything like them, and that's why I'm so baffled as to why they're so clearly freaked-out by Mellow coming to the hood. It just makes no sense to me. The folks who are going to grab a pizza or watch a football game at Mellow would not have been going to The Brick, or Bluefish, or Mojo or The Fox.. The folks who want to listen to a jazz combo, have a steak and a few bottles of wine at the Brick or Bluefish are not going to go over to Mellow instead for pizza and Tom Petty.
It's weird.
Call the issue what you want, the fact that MM wants to build a new pyramid with racing stripes is what is the real issue here. Jump up and down, scream life is not fair, cause we know its not. Really?
Again, those opposed are opposed to the design that MM is trying to push down onto the community. They can always go back and open up in the 6000 square feet they have in the 'town/benham space and move forward. I like the new designs, but I think there is no way they can get them approved, not now.
Put yourself in the MM shoes, how long can you afford to wait? You have an $800,000 non performing asset that costs taxes, maintenance and is bringing in no money. How long would you wait?
So how would that change the non performing asset situation? They would still have an abandoned gas station next door. Do you suggest that they let people continue to park there for free? I'd rather see them fence it off and leave it the abandoned eyesore that it is to piss RAP and WLA off.
Quote from: mtraininjax on September 19, 2012, 05:23:55 PM
Call the issue what you want, the fact that MM wants to build a new pyramid with racing stripes is what is the real issue here. Jump up and down, scream life is not fair, cause we know its not. Really?
Again, those opposed are opposed to the design that MM is trying to push down onto the community. They can always go back and open up in the 6000 square feet they have in the 'town/benham space and move forward. I like the new designs, but I think there is no way they can get them approved, not now.
Put yourself in the MM shoes, how long can you afford to wait? You have an $800,000 non performing asset that costs taxes, maintenance and is bringing in no money. How long would you wait?
Dude, seriously? "A pyramid with racing stripes"?? Seriously?
"The design MM is trying to push down onto the community"?!?? It's a design the
community pushed down onto Mellow Mushroom!! You say some wacky stuff Bro.
Quote from: acme54321 on September 19, 2012, 05:30:30 PM
So how would that change the non performing asset situation? They would still have an abandoned gas station next door. Do you suggest that they let people continue to park there for free? I'd rather see them fence it off and leave it the abandoned eyesore that it is to piss RAP and WLA off.
I'd prefer a combination Adult Novelty/Smokers Supply store, or as a good friend of mine called it, "Dongs and Bongs".
Here's the latest Mellow Mushroom design. It appears they are trying to make the facade the same general scale of the properties surrounding it.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Urban-Issues/Mellow-Mushroom-Avondale/i-zXF5vKD/0/L/FINALMM12101Mellow-Avondale-L.jpg)
Quote from: mtraininjax on September 19, 2012, 05:23:55 PM
Call the issue what you want, the fact that MM wants to build a new pyramid with racing stripes is what is the real issue here. Jump up and down, scream life is not fair, cause we know its not. Really?
Again, those opposed are opposed to the design that MM is trying to push down onto the community. They can always go back and open up in the 6000 square feet they have in the 'town/benham space and move forward. I like the new designs, but I think there is no way they can get them approved, not now.
Put yourself in the MM shoes, how long can you afford to wait? You have an $800,000 non performing asset that costs taxes, maintenance and is bringing in no money. How long would you wait?
Life isn't fair sometimes that's why God made Lawyers!
Quote from: thelakelander on September 19, 2012, 05:36:56 PM
Here's the latest Mellow Mushroom design. It appears they are trying to make the facade the same general scale of the properties surrounding it.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Urban-Issues/Mellow-Mushroom-Avondale/i-zXF5vKD/0/L/FINALMM12101Mellow-Avondale-L.jpg)
Looks exactly like the rest of Avondale if you ask me... Matter of fact, given that the Mellow boys are so clever, I'd be willing to wager that they researched the appearance of the original building that occupied the gas station property before 1950 and designed the new structure to mimic it...
Just a hunch of course... ;)
QuoteLife isn't fair sometimes that's why God made Lawyers!
And Bankers, all those credit default swaps, they got paid already for bad risks which they made and insured themselves on default. Now the greedy bastards are holding onto properties trying to get top dollar, gravy, on foreclosures, while neighborhoods deteriorate. Bankers are worse than lawyers.
The 'town/Benham storefront is fine for MM, but when you add a storefront in and around the garage, that is new and that is an issue with many in the shops area. It does not matter if you create a lovely facade of bricks and mortar, its still new and it smacks in the area of a Mojo expansion.
I've yet to have anyone argue, successfully, why MM cannot survive in the 6000 square feet of space they have now with the building at 'town/Benhams? That square footage is in line with what MM considers for their franchises.
Quote from: mtraininjax on September 19, 2012, 09:45:52 PM
QuoteLife isn't fair sometimes that's why God made Lawyers!
And Bankers, all those credit default swaps, they got paid already for bad risks which they made and insured themselves on default. Now the greedy bastards are holding onto properties trying to get top dollar, gravy, on foreclosures, while neighborhoods deteriorate. Bankers are worse than lawyers.
The 'town/Benham storefront is fine for MM, but when you add a storefront in and around the garage, that is new and that is an issue with many in the shops area. It does not matter if you create a lovely facade of bricks and mortar, its still new and it smacks in the area of a Mojo expansion.
I've yet to have anyone argue, successfully, why MM cannot survive in the 6000 square feet of space they have now with the building at 'town/Benhams? That square footage is in line with what MM considers for their franchises.
No one has to argue why MM could or couldn't survive in the 6000 square foot space, that's life. I haven't heard much about what went on during the Jacksonville Historical Preservation Commission meeting I was busy. Did MM win this round?
It's not up to a few residents and fearful shop owners to dictate what the exact square footage of the restaurant should be. As long as they abide by the city's zoning regulations, they should be allowed to construct whatever they want. Everything else is nothing but a circus side show. If the others don't like it, attack the code, not the guy trying to comply with it.
Quote from: If_I_Loved_you on September 19, 2012, 09:59:09 PM
Quote from: mtraininjax on September 19, 2012, 09:45:52 PM
QuoteLife isn't fair sometimes that's why God made Lawyers!
And Bankers, all those credit default swaps, they got paid already for bad risks which they made and insured themselves on default. Now the greedy bastards are holding onto properties trying to get top dollar, gravy, on foreclosures, while neighborhoods deteriorate. Bankers are worse than lawyers.
The 'town/Benham storefront is fine for MM, but when you add a storefront in and around the garage, that is new and that is an issue with many in the shops area. It does not matter if you create a lovely facade of bricks and mortar, its still new and it smacks in the area of a Mojo expansion.
I've yet to have anyone argue, successfully, why MM cannot survive in the 6000 square feet of space they have now with the building at 'town/Benhams? That square footage is in line with what MM considers for their franchises.
No one has to argue why MM could or couldn't survive in the 6000 square foot space, that's life. I haven't heard much about what went on during the Jacksonville Historical Preservation Commission meeting I was busy. Did MM win this round?
Packed room, literally standing room only. Several speakers both pro-MM and WLA. WLA contingent almost exclusively very old and pickle-faced, and unclear on what specific area of issues the HPC addresses. Much gnashing of teeth (dentures) about parking and such, completely irrelevant to HPC.
HPC approved it, with a few very minor tweaks. I think that WLA can appeal the decision, which, given their punk-ass approach they will likely wait until one day before the appeal deadline to do. Anything to drag out the process, y'know? Still, it can't be considered as anything other than a major loss for the WLA folks.
Most discussion by the commission was focused on the open seating area at the corner of Ingleside, and whether having openings facing Ingleside was consistent with the neighborhood. MM countered that the openings are necessary to legally comply with state regs for smoking-areas. HPC solution was to require openable windows instead of just open spaces. Other than that it was just silly stuff like wanting stucco and brick instead of stone.
Quote from: Pinky on September 19, 2012, 10:20:47 PM
Quote from: If_I_Loved_you on September 19, 2012, 09:59:09 PM
Quote from: mtraininjax on September 19, 2012, 09:45:52 PM
QuoteLife isn't fair sometimes that's why God made Lawyers!
And Bankers, all those credit default swaps, they got paid already for bad risks which they made and insured themselves on default. Now the greedy bastards are holding onto properties trying to get top dollar, gravy, on foreclosures, while neighborhoods deteriorate. Bankers are worse than lawyers.
The 'town/Benham storefront is fine for MM, but when you add a storefront in and around the garage, that is new and that is an issue with many in the shops area. It does not matter if you create a lovely facade of bricks and mortar, its still new and it smacks in the area of a Mojo expansion.
I've yet to have anyone argue, successfully, why MM cannot survive in the 6000 square feet of space they have now with the building at 'town/Benhams? That square footage is in line with what MM considers for their franchises.
No one has to argue why MM could or couldn't survive in the 6000 square foot space, that's life. I haven't heard much about what went on during the Jacksonville Historical Preservation Commission meeting I was busy. Did MM win this round?
Packed room, literally standing room only. Several speakers both pro-MM and WLA. WLA contingent almost exclusively very old and pickle-faced, and unclear on what specific area of issues the HPC addresses. Much gnashing of teeth (dentures) about parking and such, completely irrelevant to HPC.
HPC approved it, with a few very minor tweaks. I think that WLA can appeal the decision, which, given their punk-ass approach they will likely wait until one day before the appeal deadline to do. Anything to drag out the process, y'know? Still, it can't be considered as anything other than a major loss for the WLA folks.
Most discussion by the commission was focused on the open seating area at the corner of Ingleside, and whether having openings facing Ingleside was consistent with the neighborhood. MM countered that the openings are necessary to legally comply with state regs for smoking-areas. HPC solution was to require openable windows instead of just open spaces. Other than that it was just silly stuff like wanting stucco and brick instead of stone.
Thank you I have been over on the RAP website http://www.riversideavondale.org/index.php?id=232 and just from reading what RAP thinks makes me sick >:( "RAP is the neighborhood preservation and community quality of life organization for Riverside and Avondale." But what this says to me is we don't want outsiders? Mellow Mushroom is coming and it's going to take a little more time so RAP why don't you relax. 8)
QuoteIt's not up to a few residents and fearful shop owners to dictate what the exact square footage of the restaurant should be. As long as they abide by the city's zoning regulations, they should be allowed to construct whatever they want. Everything else is nothing but a circus side show. If the others don't like it, attack the code, not the guy trying to comply with it.
I think that while you look at the MM angle from a planning and zoning angle, i look at it from a business and community angle. Many of us in Avondale do not see why MM cannot operate in the space that was allotted in 'town/benham's. The fact that MM wants to expand the space, after what Mojo's did, right or wrong, is a THE issue.
MM has facilities at the Beach and on the Southside, but they utilized what was there (I have not seen Fleming Island, so I don't know about it). At the beach, they are in the old existing space, and on the Southside, inside a strip mall. MM Management, having been in Germany many times, I believe, thought it would be cool to incorporate the gas station with the 'town/Benham's space. It would have been cool, but not after what Mojo's pulled and did. Bad timing here, not zoning as an issue.
WLA may be attacking MM, most of the people I work with and speak with are fine with an MM in our area. MM has the rights to the 'town/benham's space, and can do with it as it pleases, can even knock down the garage or keep it. The drawings look great on what the space could have become, however, the expansion would have smacked of Mojo's expansion and while the great and cool factor would be in place, it would be out of character with the sacrifices others have had to endure in the neighborhood.
I like what the Zoning and Planning group do for our city, I have many good friends still in Planning, but sometimes, the designs people come up with do not fit the character of the neighborhood. In this case, had MM been there before Mojo's, it could probably get this done. WLA is fanning most of the heat on this case.
MM can always open up somewhere else with these plans and ideas and probably be just fine in a strip mall in another part of town, probably without the WLA resistance.
http://www.riversideavondale.org/index.php?id=232 (http://www.riversideavondale.org/index.php?id=232)
That is a good read, discusses how RAP has been involved in steering the project with assistance from MM. There are some awfully smart people on the RAP board, people who know, understand planning, and care about the community. It is slanderous to assume that RAP is out to keep property owners from growing a business. They only provide policies and procedures with which Commercial and Residential exist in the area. I don't see anything wrong with anything on the link. If you build it in R/A you must confer to more historic guidelines than if it were in a strip mall on the southside. That is why many of us live here, for the character and beauty of the community. You also should not lie about your development and do something other than what your plans call for....the shoe store example was perfect! It describes the Mojo issue PERFECTLY. They took a shoe store and a furniture store and converted the space into a restaurant/bar, without the need for more parking. No issue with that? Really???
Quote from: mtraininjax on September 20, 2012, 03:37:05 AM
QuoteIt's not up to a few residents and fearful shop owners to dictate what the exact square footage of the restaurant should be. As long as they abide by the city's zoning regulations, they should be allowed to construct whatever they want. Everything else is nothing but a circus side show. If the others don't like it, attack the code, not the guy trying to comply with it.
I think that while you look at the MM angle from a planning and zoning angle, i look at it from a business and community angle. Many of us in Avondale do not see why MM cannot operate in the space that was allotted in 'town/benham's. The fact that MM wants to expand the space, after what Mojo's did, right or wrong, is a THE issue.
That's not the legally binding issue though.
QuoteMM has facilities at the Beach and on the Southside, but they utilized what was there (I have not seen Fleming Island, so I don't know about it). At the beach, they are in the old existing space, and on the Southside, inside a strip mall. MM Management, having been in Germany many times, I believe, thought it would be cool to incorporate the gas station with the 'town/Benham's space. It would have been cool, but not after what Mojo's pulled and did. Bad timing here, not zoning as an issue.
All of this is nothing more than circus side show. If that was the sentiment held by the majority of the community (community actual sounds pretty split on this particular issue), perhaps efforts should have been made to purchase the property when it was available. Legally, you can't stop him from opening a restaurant if its designed to comply with the city's zoning regulations, no matter how much hot air is blown on St. Johns Avenue. It's too late for the MM site but Monty's is still out there.
QuoteWLA may be attacking MM, most of the people I work with and speak with are fine with an MM in our area. MM has the rights to the 'town/benham's space, and can do with it as it pleases, can even knock down the garage or keep it. The drawings look great on what the space could have become, however, the expansion would have smacked of Mojo's expansion and while the great and cool factor would be in place, it would be out of character with the sacrifices others have had to endure in the neighborhood.
How exactly is the project out of character and sacrifices what others have had to endure in the neighborhood? On the surface, redevelopment of a blighted site, job creation, high property tax generation, more foot traffic, etc. in a commercial district seems like a plus.
QuoteI like what the Zoning and Planning group do for our city, I have many good friends still in Planning, but sometimes, the designs people come up with do not fit the character of the neighborhood. In this case, had MM been there before Mojo's, it could probably get this done. WLA is fanning most of the heat on this case.
Again, what exactly about the design does not fit within the character of the district? Is it too tall? Are the buildings too close or too far from the street? I'm quite confused by this particular statement, considering it was approved by HPC last night.
QuoteMM can always open up somewhere else with these plans and ideas and probably be just fine in a strip mall in another part of town, probably without the WLA resistance.
Or WLA can accept a new place coming in or move away. There's a lot of things all parties can do but they don't always become reality when they aren't legally binding.
Quotehttp://www.riversideavondale.org/index.php?id=232 (http://www.riversideavondale.org/index.php?id=232)
That is a good read, discusses how RAP has been involved in steering the project with assistance from MM. There are some awfully smart people on the RAP board, people who know, understand planning, and care about the community. It is slanderous to assume that RAP is out to keep property owners from growing a business. They only provide policies and procedures with which Commercial and Residential exist in the area. I don't see anything wrong with anything on the link. If you build it in R/A you must confer to more historic guidelines than if it were in a strip mall on the southside. That is why many of us live here, for the character and beauty of the community. You also should not lie about your development and do something other than what your plans call for....the shoe store example was perfect! It describes the Mojo issue PERFECTLY. They took a shoe store and a furniture store and converted the space into a restaurant/bar, without the need for more parking. No issue with that? Really???
Great read indeed and I agree with a lot of what you've stated here. However, you have to admit, you guys are pretty split on this idea of what "character and beauty" actually is for the community. A good segment of the community feels they have no representation. How you handle that over the next few months will be pretty interesting to see.
Quote from: mtraininjax on September 20, 2012, 03:37:05 AM
MM has facilities at the Beach and on the Southside, but they utilized what was there (I have not seen Fleming Island, so I don't know about it). At the beach, they are in the old existing space, and on the Southside, inside a strip mall.
umm, no...at the beach, they completely reconstructed the building....and on Southside, they have a very large outdoor patio space....with live music at night....you know, just what some in Avondale don't want
I'm not completely versed in PUDs and overlays, but is this something that should be brought to light concerning the parking concerns with MM coming to the RAP area?
http://jacksonville.com/opinion/blog/403455/steve-patterson/2012-09-20/parking-king-street-restaurant-chases-two-bills
I will ask again has anyone had to walk over two blocks from anywhere they want to park to their destination door. I have been asking for a year and apparently no one here has had to even walk the two block gauntlet.
I have not. However after reading it, I had two thoughts. One, my fat American butt could use a little walking before and after eating such a heavy meal. My second though (which probably made me had my 1st thought) was I remember a friend of mine who just go back from Europe. He couldn't say enough about how great the food was, the beer, the wine...and no one was over weight. He attributed the lack of over weight people to everyone walking... My friend is against MM in Avondale because of the parking. I find it ironic.
Quote from: JeffreyS on September 20, 2012, 07:12:43 PM
I will ask again has anyone had to walk over two blocks from anywhere they want to park to their destination door. I have been asking for a year and apparently no one here has had to even walk the two block gauntlet.
I have... but it is not often. I often park on the street behind Brick and Bluefish. On busy evenings... the street is virtually clogged. It basically becomes a one way street. If two cars meet from opposing directions... one car must find a spot to pull over and let the other by. I certainly can see an issue regarding the passage of emergency vehicles.
The city needs to come in there and paint out parking stalls on one side of those streets. Problem solved. If you aren't in a spot you get towed.
Quote from: BridgeTroll on September 21, 2012, 06:43:02 AM
Quote from: JeffreyS on September 20, 2012, 07:12:43 PM
I will ask again has anyone had to walk over two blocks from anywhere they want to park to their destination door. I have been asking for a year and apparently no one here has had to even walk the two block gauntlet.
I have... but it is not often. I often park on the street behind Brick and Bluefish. On busy evenings... the street is virtually clogged. It basically becomes a one way street. If two cars meet from opposing directions... one car must find a spot to pull over and let the other by. I certainly can see an issue regarding the passage of emergency vehicles.
In major cities, they make narrow streets like these single one way through lanes. When you have a gridded street network in a neighborhood not built for every resident to have two and three cars, why dedicate so much roadway width on a residential street to bi-directional through traffic?
Chicago
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Chicago-Lake-View/i-z7ZMHmc/0/M/P1570367-M.jpg)
New Orleans
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/New-Orleans-April-2010/P1330422/832372342_J3ALZ-M.jpg)
Washington, DC
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Washington-DC-Jan-2009/P1190444/459274848_QbqC9-M.jpg)
I don't disagree at all Lake... That may indeed be the solution for that street... along with various parking restrictions. (fire lane, painted spaces,etc) The reality for this particular street... at this particular time is... that due to the increase in customers to the various establishments in Avondale... the current situation on that street is less than satisfactory for those who actually live there.
Quote from: JeffreyS on September 20, 2012, 07:12:43 PM
I will ask again has anyone had to walk over two blocks from anywhere they want to park to their destination door. I have been asking for a year and apparently no one here has had to even walk the two block gauntlet.
I fully agree with this, and also have seen no proactive approaches by businesses or property owners to inform patrons of the Shoppes that there are other options than the Talbot & Riverside to park on.
If the business owners were to tell their patrons "Hey it's not a good idea to park: "insert trouble area" but you should try to park @ Boone Park or "here" or "here" it would alleviate the congestion.
The "problems" with the parking in the area of the shoppes is only really occurring for short periods time maybe a couple hours on certain days. It's not like they have these problems 24/7. There have been countless times I drive down St Johns Ave and see plenty of parking at all hours of the day or night.
Quote from: acme54321 on September 21, 2012, 07:09:05 AM
The city needs to come in there and paint out parking stalls on one side of those streets. Problem solved. If you aren't in a spot you get towed.
This is a good idea or put up no parking signs on one side of the given street. And since no one in Avondale owns the public road outside their home. No residents could park in the painted out parking spaces!
^I think the whole crux of the issue is that there is a handful of residents that live near the shops (the ones that make up WLA) that think they own the streets and should be the only ones that are allowed to park there. That's what it comes down to and that's why you hear talk about residential parking decals.
Quote from: cline on September 21, 2012, 09:41:43 AM
^I think the whole crux of the issue is that there is a handful of residents that live near the shops (the ones that make up WLA) that think they own the streets and should be the only ones that are allowed to park there. That's what it comes down to and that's why you hear talk about residential parking decals.
Wow this is the first I have heard of 'residential parking decals' what a stupid idea!
Quote from: stephendare on September 21, 2012, 10:55:16 AM
Quote from: If_I_Loved_you on September 21, 2012, 09:53:37 AM
Quote from: cline on September 21, 2012, 09:41:43 AM
^I think the whole crux of the issue is that there is a handful of residents that live near the shops (the ones that make up WLA) that think they own the streets and should be the only ones that are allowed to park there. That's what it comes down to and that's why you hear talk about residential parking decals.
Wow this is the first I have heard of 'residential parking decals' what a stupid idea!
one of the stupidest. and incredibly arrogant. I suppose that Riverside Avondale is prepared to take over the costs of maintaining the public streets that they would be stealing from the city?
Also I think anyone with such a sticker or decal on their car should be charged to park in any other neighborhood.
That's a great idea, it's just that the enforcement rules seem to be backwards. If you own a home in the area, you're required to have a tag decal. If you're car is found parked on a public ROW outside of a designated parking spot instead of your driveway, then you get a ticket. Simple.
I don't understand how the city hasn't demanded 1 side parking for the area. As WLA has pointed out, safety vehicles can't make it through. Isn't that illegal?
Quote from: Bridges on September 21, 2012, 11:17:51 AM
I don't understand how the city hasn't demanded 1 side parking for the area. As WLA has pointed out, safety vehicles can't make it through. Isn't that illegal?
Maybe RAP doesn't want it? But you would think with all the really smart people at RAP they could have done something a lot sooner? Or maybe this is where the employee's park that work in Avondale? So many questions so few answers. ;)
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on September 21, 2012, 11:03:20 AM
Quote from: stephendare on September 21, 2012, 10:55:16 AM
Quote from: If_I_Loved_you on September 21, 2012, 09:53:37 AM
Quote from: cline on September 21, 2012, 09:41:43 AM
^I think the whole crux of the issue is that there is a handful of residents that live near the shops (the ones that make up WLA) that think they own the streets and should be the only ones that are allowed to park there. That's what it comes down to and that's why you hear talk about residential parking decals.
Wow this is the first I have heard of 'residential parking decals' what a stupid idea!
one of the stupidest. and incredibly arrogant. I suppose that Riverside Avondale is prepared to take over the costs of maintaining the public streets that they would be stealing from the city?
Also I think anyone with such a sticker or decal on their car should be charged to park in any other neighborhood.
That's a great idea, it's just that the enforcement rules seem to be backwards. If you own a home in the area, you're required to have a tag decal. If you're car is found parked on a public ROW outside of a designated parking spot instead of your driveway, then you get a ticket. Simple.
What driveway? Many of the houses in this area do not have driveways and must park on the street.
Quote from: stephendare on September 21, 2012, 10:55:16 AM
Quote from: If_I_Loved_you on September 21, 2012, 09:53:37 AM
Quote from: cline on September 21, 2012, 09:41:43 AM
^I think the whole crux of the issue is that there is a handful of residents that live near the shops (the ones that make up WLA) that think they own the streets and should be the only ones that are allowed to park there. That's what it comes down to and that's why you hear talk about residential parking decals.
Wow this is the first I have heard of 'residential parking decals' what a stupid idea!
one of the stupidest. and incredibly arrogant. I suppose that Riverside Avondale is prepared to take over the costs of maintaining the public streets that they would be stealing from the city?
Also I think anyone with such a sticker or decal on their car should be charged to park in any other neighborhood.
they do the "residential parking decals" in other historic neighborhoods around the country though. Agree it is dumb, but not without precedent.
Quote from: MissMinda on September 21, 2012, 11:43:52 AMWhat driveway? Many of the houses in this area do not have driveways and must park on the street.
Really? The only houses around the shops without driveways are those that are on the alley behind the shops and have garages back there. Weak excuse at best.
Quote from: fsquid on September 21, 2012, 11:47:10 AM
Quote from: stephendare on September 21, 2012, 10:55:16 AM
Quote from: If_I_Loved_you on September 21, 2012, 09:53:37 AM
Quote from: cline on September 21, 2012, 09:41:43 AM
^I think the whole crux of the issue is that there is a handful of residents that live near the shops (the ones that make up WLA) that think they own the streets and should be the only ones that are allowed to park there. That's what it comes down to and that's why you hear talk about residential parking decals.
Wow this is the first I have heard of 'residential parking decals' what a stupid idea!
one of the stupidest. and incredibly arrogant. I suppose that Riverside Avondale is prepared to take over the costs of maintaining the public streets that they would be stealing from the city?
Also I think anyone with such a sticker or decal on their car should be charged to park in any other neighborhood.
they do the "residential parking decals" in other historic neighborhoods around the country though. Agree it is dumb, but not without precedent.
OK, but we love avondale and RAP would have to be careful what you wish for, once you go down this road it will be hard to stop? Besides were do Employee's who work at the Avondale restaurants and stores park anyways.
Neighborhood decals make sense in certain situations, this isn't one. Gainesville has them in some neighborhhods around UF, because if they didn't the streets would be packed for blocks all around with parked cars all day when 50k students come to campus. That makes sense.
Enforcement of the parking decals would be a nightmare for the City, especially considering the budget issues COJ is facing. That's why the whole idea of parking decals would ultimately fail. Not to mention I would find it hard to believe that any business at the shoppes would support such an idea since it would make it more difficult for customers to patronize their establishments. As for the emergency vehicles thing- eliminating on-street parking is a no-brainer which would fix this. Of course, that goes against what WLA wants since residents on one side of the street would no longer be able to park on the street in front of their house. Because of that, I would assume they would be against it.
Can't wait to see that fugly derelict gas station and empty corner lot gone. I live two blocks from it and have no problem with the 'parking'. Welcome Mellow Mushroom!!
QuoteBut its not about parking
Correct. This is not about parking. We should be talking about solutions (such as transit, like you mentioned) to address mobility in the neighborhood. Parking is only a symptom and fixing the parking problem does not address the real problem. But we all know what this is really about and you mentioned them in you post.
As parking permits have been mentioned, Annapolis, Maryland has Residential Parking Permit Program/ laws. ( I tried to insert a link and it does not work completely - Annapolis Municode, chapter 12-32) I think it has evolved over the years and I think the areas have been reduced in some cases. I knew someone who lived in a historic area that the streets were almost impassable on a good day and he said that before the permits (no drive for his early 1800's cottage), he never got a parking spot on his own street. With the permit, he could find one most days. I do believe that Riverside/ Avondale has a long way to go before permits would be needed to insure anyone would have a parking space on their own street.
http://library.municode.com/index.aspx?clientId=16754&stateId=20&stateName=Maryland (http://library.municode.com/index.aspx?clientId=16754&stateId=20&stateName=Maryland)
And since this is about parking, what do you think about this?
http://www.ci.annapolis.md.us/Government/Departments/CSPurch/forms/PGdecal.pdf (http://www.ci.annapolis.md.us/Government/Departments/CSPurch/forms/PGdecal.pdf)
it is a permit for parking again, but this one gives residents free parking in city run garages for two hours every day. Great incentive to get residents to go downtown.