Does Jacksonville fiddle while Rome burns? Maybe not, but we're damn close. Orlando is actually building fixed rail transit and it should be up and running in 2014. So even though that's still 2 years out, they have cataloged a $Billion dollars in new TOD development around the tracks, and as this article proved, they're looking for more. Sunrail a bad deal? Hardly!
QuoteOrlando Realtors to go on 'pretend' SunRail
4:08 p.m. EST, September 13, 2012|By Dan Tracy, Orlando Sentinel
More than 170 Central Florida Realtors, leasing agents and others will ride an Amtrak train Friday, pretending they are on the planned SunRail commuter train.
They will hop on a regularly scheduled Amtrak carrier in DeLand and take it all the way to Kissimmee on tracks that by 2014 are expected to carry the $1.2 billion SunRail trains.
Riders will stop only at four of the future SunRail depots, but they will see the sites of the rest of them as they whiz by, said Frankie Elliott, vice president of government affairs for the Orlando Regional Realtors Association, which is sponsoring the trip.
She said the idea is to generate enthusiasm for SunRail, as well as point out the possible ways people in the real estate business can profit from development that could sprout along the four-county route.
"It's going to have a positive impact for our business," Elliott said.
Already, more than $1 billion worth of projects are planned along SunRail, ranging from apartment buildings to commercial and retail space.
The ride, which costs $50 per person, is not open to the public.
Among those attending with be the chief executive of the Lynx regional bus service, John Lewis, and several SunRail officials, including project manager Tawny Olore.
Lewis is expected to tell the group about how Lynx will offer bus service for SunRail passengers to get from the station to their final destination. Other options could include taxis, cars that can be leased by the hour and bike rentals.
Olore, who possesses an almost encyclopedic knowledge of SunRail, will answer all manner of questions about the system that at first will link DeBary in Volusia County with downtown Orlando and south Orange County. The initial 31-mile phase will have a dozen stops, including Sanford, Lake Mary, Longwood, Altamonte Springs, Maitland, Winter Park and four in Orlando.
Eleven of the 12 stops are under construction, most of them with platforms already poured. Work has not yet started in Longwood because electrical lines have to be moved first, according to Steve Olson, a spokesman with the state Department of Transportation.
The route will be lengthened by another 31 miles in 2016, going north to DeLand and south to Poinciana in Osceola County.
Most of Friday's riders will gather at the Lynx downtown Orlando station and ride a bus to DeLand, where they will catch the regularly scheduled Amtrak train. It will have three extra cars on the end for the SunRail group.
The tour will end in Kissimmee, where the riders will go to the city convention center across the street from the Amtrak station. There, they will have lunch and look over plans for development along the SunRail corridor.
Meanwhile back in Jacksonville "ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz"
Here is another take on this story:
QuoteDevelopers are building apartments along Florida’s new commuter rail line â€" but if SunRail isn’t reliable, both the idea of transit-oriented development â€" not to mention SunRail â€" could flop.
The SunRail tracks run straight through Florida Hospital’s campus on North Orange Ave. When the commuter train starts in 2014 it will be an important part of the hospital’s plans for a health village, which will include a mix of apartments, shops and businesses clustered around the yet-to-be built rail station.
Developer Craig Ustler says the project will transform the surrounding neighborhood.
“It would look like a lot of people walking, a pedestrian friendly environment, and maybe an evolution to a place where the car doesn’t win all the time.â€
"It’s not a perfect set up yet," says Craig Ustler, standing at the site of the future Florida Hospital SunRail platform "they’ve got to build an administrative building and some retail to tie it all together, but a lot of pieces in place already to make a quality environment built around the transit.â€
Ustler is counting on residents for a 250 apartment, $38 million complex he’s building a few blocks from the hospital.
The idea behind transit-oriented development (TOD) is to create pedestrian- friendly environments with access to transportation alternatives to the car. Local officials, like Orlando Mayor Buddy Dyer, are excited about its potential.
“Transit-oriented development is popping up all around these stations, giving us new places to work, live and play,†said Dyer when SunRail got the final go-ahead a year ago.
“New companies moving in, new jobs being created. People saving money because they don’t have to use their car. People saving time because they’re not stuck on I-4.â€
With ten thousand hospital employees and about three thousand students at the College of Health Sciences, all of them potential rail passengers, shoppers or tenants, Florida Hospital is ripe for TOD.
SOURCE: http://transportationnation.org/2012/07/10/will-sunrail-change-central-floridas-driving-habits/
^And just think - we already have the major pieces in place for a similar Health focused TOD at Baptist Hospital on the Southbank. We just need the train engine, passenger cars and a simple stop. With a dose of political support.
Is Jacksonville both the largest city and largest metro that currently doesn't have or is not in process of building or currently trying desperately to approve and build a fixed-rail transit system?
1) NYC has and is building ($5B 2nd Ave subway line, PATH, etc)
2) LA has and is building
3) Chicago has
4) Dallas has and is expanding DART and installing streetcars
5) Houston has and is expanding their LRT
6) Philadelphia has
7) DC has and is expanding/building Silver line to Reston/Dulles
8 ) Miami has and is wrapping up an extension to the airport and expansion of TRI-Rail and a multimodal center
9) Atlanta has and is installing streetcars and trying to expand MARTA
10) Boston has
11) San Francisco has and is extending Caltrain to new multimodal Transbay Terminal (and Muni)
12) Riverside - has? part of LA anyway
13) Detroit - ok this is probably the largest, should we be in the same group as Detroit?
14) Phoenix - has
15) Seattle has and is expanding?
16) Minneapolis has
17) San Diego has
18) Tampa has the TECO streetcar, not doing very well apparently
19) St. Louis has
20) Baltimore has
21) Denver has
22) Pittsburgh has
23) Portland has
24) San Antonio does not have and is not pursuing?
25) Sacramento has
26) Orlando is building Sunrail commuter line
27) Cincinnati is building streetcars
28) Cleveland has
29) Kansas City does not have but is pursuing?
30) Las Vegas has if you consider its monorail
31) San Jose has
32) Columbus is putting in streetcars?
33) Charlotte has, is installing streetcars
34) Austin has
35) Indianalopis does not have and is not pursuing?
36) Virginia Beach/Norfolk has
37) Nashville has
38) Providence does not have nor is it pursuing
39) Milwaukee does not have but is pursuing?
40) Jacksonville does not have nor is it pursuing
Furthermore, in the #30-50 MSAs there seems to be a positive correlation between "growth" and the implementation, pursuit or construction of fixed-rail transit. One only has to look at San Jose, Charlotte, Austin, Nashville, Oklahoma City (MAPS 3 passed setting aside $130M for a downtown streetcar), New Orleans and Salt Lake City to see where the growth leaders are in the sort of 1-2 million person metro areas, all have or are building LRT, streetcars and/or commuter rail. The only exceptions are Buffalo and Norfolk/Virginia Beach, which have LRT but are growing slowly.
Conversely, almost all metros without rail or construction of rail in this group are growing slowly, including Jacksonville which is growing at half the rate it once did. Providence, Milwaukee, Memphis, Louisville, Hartford and Birmingham are in this category, though I would argue that even Birmingham is building more infill than Jacksonville right now. The only exceptions really are Raleigh, which failed rail, and Indianapolis which while does not have rail is arguably investing more into itself and its downtown than Jacksonville has ever considered (and it's paying off, including a raving SuperBowl review which seems almost impossible nowadays, especially in cold weather). Also Raleigh has thousands of infill apartment units in mid-rises UC or about to break ground to the west and north of its downtown in walkable districts.
Jacksonville is pursuing commuter rail.
I've heard rumblings on this site, but is it a big discussion? Are we really a contender for funds? Do we have a concrete plan like Sunrail?
well, it took SunRail in total about 15 years to get to where it is today. Money is being spent on getting Jax to the point where federal funds can be applied for. I know that JTA has met with FTA officails several times about the project, including just a few weeks ago down in Ft Lauderdale and two months ago at their regional office in Atlanta and they will be here in Jax in October. So planning is well underway.
New Orleans doesn't have and isn't pursuing light rail or commuter rail (though they are expanding the streetcar system).
Check with Lakelander to be certain, but I believe Detroit has plans for streetcar that are close to starting construction (if not already started).
Quote from: fsujax on September 14, 2012, 10:34:46 AM
well, it took SunRail in total about 15 years to get to where it is today. Money is being spent on getting Jax to the point where federal funds can be applied for. I know that JTA has met with FTA officails several times about the project, including just a few weeks ago down in Ft Lauderdale and two months ago at their regional office in Atlanta and they will be here in Jax in October. So planning is well underway.
Interesting because the Jacksonville Urban Plan of 1973 showed that the Feds had already allocated funds for the planning a transit system in Jax.
Indeed, Ock, we have been asleep!
Quote from: JFman00 on September 14, 2012, 10:44:10 AM
New Orleans doesn't have and isn't pursuing light rail or commuter rail (though they are expanding the streetcar system).
No but I think extensive streetcars count for something, especially the Green Line I think it is that runs several miles through Uptown and the Garden District.
Personally, just from my experience, for getting around the neighborhood streetcars are most convenient and easiest.
Quote from: spuwho on September 14, 2012, 01:00:59 PM
Quote from: fsujax on September 14, 2012, 10:34:46 AM
well, it took SunRail in total about 15 years to get to where it is today. Money is being spent on getting Jax to the point where federal funds can be applied for. I know that JTA has met with FTA officails several times about the project, including just a few weeks ago down in Ft Lauderdale and two months ago at their regional office in Atlanta and they will be here in Jax in October. So planning is well underway.
Interesting because the Jacksonville Urban Plan of 1973 showed that the Feds had already allocated funds for the planning a transit system in Jax.
Indeed, Ock, we have been asleep!
Those monies were for Skyway planning.
Quote from: simms3 on September 14, 2012, 01:37:16 PM
Quote from: JFman00 on September 14, 2012, 10:44:10 AM
New Orleans doesn't have and isn't pursuing light rail or commuter rail (though they are expanding the streetcar system).
No but I think extensive streetcars count for something, especially the Green Line I think it is that runs several miles through Uptown and the Garden District.
Personally, just from my experience, for getting around the neighborhood streetcars are most convenient and easiest.
The city desperately needs a commuter or light rail line though. A line from the CBD to the airport passing through following Veteran's with a spur to Elmwood should be a no-brainer.
Quote from: fsujax on September 14, 2012, 01:42:33 PM
Quote from: spuwho on September 14, 2012, 01:00:59 PM
Quote from: fsujax on September 14, 2012, 10:34:46 AM
well, it took SunRail in total about 15 years to get to where it is today. Money is being spent on getting Jax to the point where federal funds can be applied for. I know that JTA has met with FTA officails several times about the project, including just a few weeks ago down in Ft Lauderdale and two months ago at their regional office in Atlanta and they will be here in Jax in October. So planning is well underway.
Interesting because the Jacksonville Urban Plan of 1973 showed that the Feds had already allocated funds for the planning a transit system in Jax.
Indeed, Ock, we have been asleep!
Those monies were for Skyway planning.
That is where some of it ended up, but the JUP had line items for "people mover" (Skyway) and a regional mass transit system.
Let's get back to the point. Why isn't Jax pursuing all of the ancillary benefits that fixed rail transit brings?(like a billion dollars of TOD)
Can it really be as simple as the fact that we just can not explain to people that there are other factors than the Fare Box?
People can understand that the Jags count the gate fare yes but they also count TV revenue, sponsorships and I am sure other benefits streams as well when getting to the bottom line.
Why is this so hard for people to understand, why can't the local leadership understand?
I'm currently down at the statewide American Planning Association (APA) conference in Naples and had the opportunity to sit in on a TOD planning session hosted by Miami-Dade County. There, the transit authority does 99-year leases on its parking lots to encourage high density TOD around Metrorail's transit stations. The money generated from the leases goes right back into operations and maintenance of the rail system. Last year, they made about $3 million in revenue off their land uses and they expect this number to increase by 50% over the next couple of years. They've basically come to the conclusion that park & rides are crap if they don't have some type of revenue/ridership generating private development on site.
Quote from: JeffreyS on September 14, 2012, 04:13:50 PM
Let's get back to the point. Why isn't Jax pursuing all of the ancillary benefits that fixed rail transit brings?(like a billion dollars of TOD)
Can it really be as simple as the fact that we just can not explain to people that there are other factors than the Fare Box?
People can understand that the Jags count the gate fare yes but they also count TV revenue, sponsorships and I am sure other benefits streams as well when getting to the bottom line.
Why is this so hard for people to understand, why can't the local leadership understand?
Unfortunately, we're years behind in the educational curb. I sat in on a session today where the speaker numerically broke down the numbers associated with road maintenance and how its a big ponzi scheme. He repeated used small examples of how it takes, in some cases, 70 years of property taxes for the houses on local streets, like cul-de-sacs, to generate the cash needed to pay off the initial investment of road construction. There were also slides that show communities are better off with dense urban commercial blight than demolishing that "blight" and replacing it with something like a new fast food restaurant. Even in its darkest hour, a typical one block stretch, commercial storefronts that line the streets still contribute more in property taxes than a newly constructed McDondald's occupying the same space. I'm going to see if I can get a hold of that presentation. It basically had Jax written all over it.
Quote from: thelakelander on September 14, 2012, 05:25:51 PM
Quote from: JeffreyS on September 14, 2012, 04:13:50 PM
Let's get back to the point. Why isn't Jax pursuing all of the ancillary benefits that fixed rail transit brings?(like a billion dollars of TOD)
Can it really be as simple as the fact that we just can not explain to people that there are other factors than the Fare Box?
People can understand that the Jags count the gate fare yes but they also count TV revenue, sponsorships and I am sure other benefits streams as well when getting to the bottom line.
Why is this so hard for people to understand, why can't the local leadership understand?
Unfortunately, we're years behind in the educational curb. I sat in on a session today where the speaker numerically broke down the numbers associated with road maintenance and how its a big ponzi scheme. He repeated used small examples of how it takes in some cases, 70 years of property taxes for the houses on local streets, like cul-de-sacs, to generate the cash needed to pay off the initial investment of road construction. There were also slides that show communities are better off with dense urban commercial blight than demolishing that "blight" and replacing it with something like a new fast food restaurant. Even in its darkest hour, one a typical one block stretch, commercial storefronts that line the streets still contribute more in property taxes than a newly constructed McDondald's occupying the same space. I'm going to see if I can get a hold of that presentation. It basically had Jax written all over it.
Please do, I would love to read his premise.
Quote from: vicupstate on September 14, 2012, 12:27:24 PM
Check with Lakelander to be certain, but I believe Detroit has plans for streetcar that are close to starting construction (if not already started).
Yes, Detroit's business community has decided to construct their own modern streetcar line.
QuoteThe M-1 RAIL light rail circulator will strengthen the backbone of the Detroit region â€" the Woodward corridor â€" which will spur significant, additional investment in transit, economic development and prosperity within Detroit and our entire community.
The promise of the local rail circular project has already:
1. Propelled the development of new real estate projects up and down the Woodward corridor
2. Contributed to decisions by two hospital systems to expand investments in the city
3. Given rise to Midtown and downtown housing incentive programs
4. Served as the motivation for commercial property purchases in the urban core
5. Generated some $100 million of grant and loan commitments to date by national financial institutions and foundations
M-1 RAIL will be built and operated through funding provided by private donors, philanthropic foundations, corporate gifts, federal grants and tax credits. No city or state funds will be used in its construction.
http://www.m-1rail.com/
Quote from: thelakelander on September 14, 2012, 05:25:51 PM
I sat in on a session today where the speaker numerically broke down the numbers associated with road maintenance and how its a big ponzi scheme. He repeated used small examples of how it takes, in some cases, 70 years of property taxes for the houses on local streets, like cul-de-sacs, to generate the cash needed to pay off the initial investment of road construction. There were also slides that show communities are better off with dense urban commercial blight than demolishing that "blight" and replacing it with something like a new fast food restaurant. Even in its darkest hour, a typical one block stretch, commercial storefronts that line the streets still contribute more in property taxes than a newly constructed McDondald's occupying the same space. I'm going to see if I can get a hold of that presentation. It basically had Jax written all over it.
What was the speaker's name? I will look it up. My guess is there is a powerpoint floating around the web somewhere.
www.strongtowns.org
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEZjzsnPhnw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEZjzsnPhnw)
You're welcome.
I now have a version of the power point, so I'll convert it when I get back to Jax. In the meantime, here is one of the charts that illustrates the growth ponzi scheme when it comes to maintaining roadway infrastructure:
QuoteA new development goes in. The developer builds the street and then turns it over to the city for maintenance. Houses are built and the city sees its property tax receipts rise. Imagine for a moment that the city took and saved the portion of those new receipts that was to be used for street maintenance. If the city did that every year throughout the life of the street, adding the new tax receipts to those already saved, and then used the cumulative savings to repair the street, here is how the cash flow diagram would look.
(http://www.strongtowns.org/storage/post-images/Cumulative%20Cash%20Flow.jpg?__SQUARESPACE_CACHEVERSION=1308084831371)
Cash Flow Diagram for a single street. Revenues are from collected taxes and expenses are due to infrastructure maintenance costs.
Everything looks great until the end of the street's life cycle. At that point, the cost of the repairs far outweighs the revenue collected. If the city were reduced to this one street, it would be insolvent.
full story: http://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2011/6/15/the-growth-ponzi-scheme-part-3.html
Quote from: simms3 on September 14, 2012, 10:12:32 AM
Is Jacksonville both the largest city and largest metro that currently doesn't have or is not in process of building or currently trying desperately to approve and build a fixed-rail transit system?
13) Detroit - ok this is probably the largest, should we be in the same group as Detroit?
Detroit is moving rapidly toward their own streetcar system.
Quote24) San Antonio does not have and is not pursuing?
San Antonio has a streetcar plan, seen as a precursor to light-rail, in fact one BRT line which may start construction could be converted to streetcar before it opens.
Quote29) Kansas City does not have but is pursuing?
The city government has fought rail at least as hard as Jacksonville past, but the public has spoken and light-rail is on the way.
Quote30) Las Vegas has if you consider its monorail
Certainly it is a form or rail, 4.5 miles in length, but it has fallen on hard times, coming up far short of ridership projections... (gee where have we heard that line before?) It also got passed over for expansion dollars in a plan to head for the airport, but apparently the FTA has been to Jacksonville and they just laughed.
Worse still, Las Vegas has drank the Kool Aid for the cure, Bus Rapid Transit. They are trying hard like all BRT propaganda to prove their bus line is really a train in disguise.
QuoteACE is a truly hybrid system. It combines the speed and style of a light rail system with the flexibility to travel anywhere, like a bus line. But it isn’t your grandfather’s bus. ACE features hybrid vehicles with sleek designs and spacious interiors that mimic a train, but rubber tires make it possible for them to drive anywhere. Three wide doors and level station platforms, also similar to a light rail system, make boarding convenient and fast. Passengers purchase tickets from ticket vending machines and simply walk onto the ACE vehicles, which will arrive every few minutes.
The ACE rapid transit lines will feature dedicated lanes that allow the vehicles to travel fast, unimpeded by other traffic. With the dedicated lanes and fewer stops than traditional transit routes, that means a shorter commute for riders. The first line, the ACE Gold Line, will link downtown Las Vegas with the Las Vegas Convention Center and the Strip. With dedicated lanes downtown, the service is fast and convenient, much like light rail lines you find in downtown areas in other cities.
One of the best features of the ACE Gold line downtown is the enhancements to the streets where ACE will operate. Streets are our most ubiquitous form of public space, but all too often aren’t given the treatments that make them truly usable. The dedicated transit lanes, enhanced landscaping and attractive station platforms that we’ve installed create the feel of a truly livable urban community.
SOURCE: http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2010/mar/26/future-public-transportation-ace-rapid-transit-lin/
Quote32) Columbus is putting in streetcars?
Still hoping but passed over by FTA for funding, trying for another round.
Quote35) Indianapolis does not have and is not pursuing?
Oh yes they are planning and it's a great mix too, amazingly the people of the city are crying foul because it's TOO LITTLE!
Quote38) Providence does not have nor is it pursuing
Providence has commuter rail from MBTA, and frequent corridor service on Amtrak NEC.
Quote39) Milwaukee does not have but is pursuing?
A mature plan for streetcars is slowly moving forward.
Quote40) Jacksonville does not have nor is it pursuing
You might be surprised at what is in the plans, but streetcar isn't unless they sunset the mobility plan moratorium, however anything could happen right now.
Quote from: dougskiles on September 14, 2012, 09:12:08 AM
^And just think - we already have the major pieces in place for a similar Health focused TOD at Baptist Hospital on the Southbank. We just need the train engine, passenger cars and a simple stop. With a dose of political support.
The engine, passenger cars, and simple stop are easy. Political support? Forget it. Sad but true, one overlooked detail always kills great ideas.
Meawhile there's LOADS of political support for the outer beltway.
Quote from: BackinJax05 on September 15, 2012, 05:03:23 PMPolitical support? Forget it. Sad but true, one overlooked detail always kills great ideas.
Meawhile there's LOADS of political support for the outer beltway.
Actually you might be shocked to find out that the Outer Beltway has little support in Jacksonville, virtually all supporters are in Clay.
As for rail transit, things are much farther along then the general public knows. Rail IS ON THE RADAR and the City, State and Federal Government are deeply involved. Nuff said, you'll be reading much more about this if the mobility plan moratorium is ended. When things start happening, look for explosive growth along the railroad routes.
Thats reassuring to know, Ock.
Meanwhile, if Clay wants that road so damned bad why cant they build it themselves? ;)
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/ADDICTEDTOTHEWHITELINESREDVERSIO-3.jpg)
I fully agree that this is an unneeded and unwanted road in Duval. Clay County being a 'bedroom community' of Jacksonville does have a major problem with access to the city but there isn't a thing that can be done to fix it. Look at the map and you'll notice that in SW Duval the St. Johns and Ortega Rivers form a triangle, the northern tip of which is in Ortega. This triangle forces all roads and railroads into a narrow corridor. Blanding and Roosevelt, and the CSX tracks are really the only way north, and now that new development stretches from the banks of the Ortega all the way to NAS there is simply no place to locate a new turnpike or FREEway. Even if a new road could be cut in along the west bank of the Ortega where would we tie it in? The reason why this toll road will fail to EVER cover its initial construction costs is written on the face of a compass, it's simply pointed the wrong way.
It, like most highways, will fail to cover its costs because we don't pack them with enough density to stimulate the ad valorum tax revenue to cover their capital cost and maintenance. The first 25 years of revenue will look okay but once its time to expand or rebuild the facility, the money generated probably won't even cover half of the costs to repair the facility.
I don't think this one will fail because we don't pack it with density, I believe it will fail long before that based on a really lousy route plan. I understand the math of road failure's due to taxation, BUT I think this baby is really a special case and a lost cause.
It will fail from a "money" standpoint in terms of generating enough money and surrounding property tax revenue to pay for its initial construction and reconstruction once the roadway's initial life cycle ends. Regardless of route, nearly every single roadway constructed in the metropolitan area over the last few decades faces this same monetary issue, regardless of its route. Also, as you imply, it will fail in terms of attracting the desired number of paying drivers because of its route.
Some Sunrail construction images from Prahaboheme at http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=176437&page=3
Lynx / Orlando Central Station:
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Trains/Sunrail/i-ngPxg9B/0/M/IMGP7162ss-M.jpg)
Church Street Station:
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Trains/Sunrail/i-7RrgjFF/0/M/IMGP7142ss-M.jpg)
Cabs:
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Trains/Sunrail/i-hgxm8ws/0/M/256CabPaintedss-M.jpg)