Metro Jacksonville

Mellow Mushroom: Working with the Avondale community

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/920011798_NfbCZ-M.jpg)

Now that we've shared We Love Avondale's demands regarding a proposed Mellow Mushroom restaurant opening within the urban core, Metro Jacksonville highlights Mellow Mushroom's position.

Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2012-aug-mellow-mushroom-working-with-the-avondale-community

Wish adaptive reuse was moving forward.

^ Same.....

Quote1. Close up completely at midnight.

2. No music or television sound played in any outside area after 9:00pm.

3. No outside live music.

4. No uses allowed in the parking lot area except parking, and deliveries between the hours of 9am and 5pm.

These are rediculous, only MM? Not Casbah or anyone else who pipes out music? Besides being the building police, will RAP now become the outside music police? Will Carmen, Susan, Tori, Kay and others be walking around with decibel readers at night? Its lunacy!

John should tear down the garage, and build an adult nightclub with red and yellow sires outside, just to stick it to these idiotic "demands".

This isn't the first time that RAP has played noise police. They were instrumental in preventing Alpha Dog from using their back patio, which made that business unsustainable and forced them to shut down. They have also been hassling Rogue for years about the noise it creates. Maybe soon RAP will start to determine what food can be sold and what drinks can be served at restaurants within their borders. if the RAP board dressed in leather vests and rode motorcycles it would be more fitting to their style of business. They're running the neighborhood like an outlaw biker gang these days.

QuoteThey're running the neighborhood like an outlaw biker gang these days.

I do believe this could be a new thread...... 8)

QuoteAvondale lost and that they chose to follow a few idiots instead of using their own common sense.

Avondale did not lose, John compromised and we both won. We get one of the best pizza places, I have ever been to, and I grew up around them in Atlanta, so I am very happy, we are getting a fine restaurant and great local business partner. 

You can't always get what you want, but you "do" get what you need, in our case, we got our MM here in Avondale!

I am a bit surprised that the Mellow Mushroom folks have not figured out yet that this small group of disgruntled residents and RAP will never be happy. That even giving in one small inch gives those people a feeling of power that propels even more demands.

This is a case where a few have taken up the torches and pitchforks, have used fear and misinformation to gain support from others and are moving forward with the intent of malice. The original proposal with the adaptive reuse was indeed the best approach for both Mellow Mushroom and the community.  The sad thing is that after the dust settles and Mellow Mushroom has moved on, the majority of the folks will stop and realize that Avondale lost and that they chose to follow a few idiots instead of using their own common sense.

They have done everything to try and stop MM from opening in Avondale. Please let someone open a sex shop instead. That's what they deserve there. The shops have really gone down anyway in my opinion. As I stated in another thread the whole area, as far as shopping has slipped. Ok for food, not ok for other shopping. Don't go there much at all anymore.

I wonder if the folks in Hyde Park in Tampa fought this hard over the development in their area. Parking wasn't great there either but it is a great shopping area. If I lived in Tampa I would go there frequently because, forgive my blasphemy, there are some large chain stores that can make it trough tough times and remain open, thus creating a sense of stability. So many locals have opened and closed in Avondale you never know what will be there next time you go. In the last 20 years almost every shop in Avondale has been more than 1 business and some 3 or 4. I know that's typical for local, but at least with a chain the size of MM, they will be around for a while. It always bothers me when a shopping area has 3 real estate offices. But maybe that's what Avondale wants because they draw so few people. Too bad I used to shop there ALL the time.

Wow- I can't believe RAP prefers plans that looks like something from a strip mall on southside as opposed to something unique, interesting and historic.

I don't know the whole story here, which group asked for what demands. I do know that "We Love Avondale LLC", really doesn't. They are a group of self-center jackasses that think Riverside/Avondale should be run with a gated community mentality.

Looking at the two designs, the new one is so far inferior to the old that it is almost worth crying over.  From St Johns, the new design looks like a super target.  What will it be, 200 feet of continuous storefront?  The old design would not have looked so imposing from the street and would have really blended well into the surrounding streetscape.  As currently proposed, the development will abut the street in a harsh way that, in my opinion, walls it off from the outside.  I am sure that everyone is also aware that the new proposal only adds 4 parking spaces........ Lets just let that sink in.... After we bulldoze a historic structure and rip out the landscaped common area and bike racks we are left with 4 NEW PARKING SPACES.  Everyone who is for this new design should be ashamed.

Stephendare, where would you say we RAP is relative to SPAR turning into firebreathing dragons and leveling the neighborhood?  14-18 months out?  Keep in mind this is the second property that RAP has now forced developers to turn into a surface lot.  Not only that, this is the second time in about as many months.  Looks like they are just now getting up to speed.

Man like so many other things in this city its a damn compromise. I am sick of the "we have money and god" so we run this joint attitude. Screw the other 90something%. Please somebody run for city council that has some intelligence and half an idea to grow Jacksonville into a forward thinking city.

Looks like I need to talk to Dr. Wood, and get the bottom of this non-sense. This has been a double-whammies with a ridiculous outcome.

Based on the demands of "We Love Avondale LLC" and RAP, I think they are becoming more foolish and unrealistic. They have truly lost their touch to their own core values of their organizations.

-Josh

Quote from: mtraininjax on August 23, 2012, 07:24:40 AM

Quote1. Close up completely at midnight.

2. No music or television sound played in any outside area after 9:00pm.

3. No outside live music.

4. No uses allowed in the parking lot area except parking, and deliveries between the hours of 9am and 5pm.

These are rediculous, only MM? Not Casbah or anyone else who pipes out music? Besides being the building police, will RAP now become the outside music police? Will Carmen, Susan, Tori, Kay and others be walking around with decibel readers at night? Its lunacy!

John should tear down the garage, and build an adult nightclub with red and yellow sires outside, just to stick it to these idiotic "demands".

The only surprising thing is that you're surprised...

I'm not sure what the big mystery is, it was obvious where this has been going from the beginning.

Quote from: iluvolives on August 23, 2012, 08:50:30 AM
Wow- I can't believe RAP prefers plans that looks like something from a strip mall on southside as opposed to something unique, interesting and historic.

MAYBE some of the members of that organizations are actually property owners of strip malls, so they are so darn familiar with it. It's like snuggling and hugging their teddy bears.

-Josh

We Love Avondale + RAP = SPAR...Part 2! The Revenge! Bigger, noisier, even more out of touch, and a hell of a lot dumber.

Coming this fall to a dead urban core near you.

P.S. Abundant parking!

Quote from: mtraininjax on August 23, 2012, 07:43:13 AM

QuoteThey're running the neighborhood like an outlaw biker gang these days.

I do believe this could be a new thread...... 8)

QuoteAvondale lost and that they chose to follow a few idiots instead of using their own common sense.

Avondale did not lose, John compromised and we both won. We get one of the best pizza places, I have ever been to, and I grew up around them in Atlanta, so I am very happy, we are getting a fine restaurant and great local business partner. 

You can't always get what you want, but you "do" get what you need, in our case, we got our MM here in Avondale!

Hogwash.

Mellow Mushroom was coming regardless, all this managed to do was screw the neighborhood out of a nice adaptive reuse and into a demolition & replacement with a suburban-style box, all in exchange for 4 parking spaces. Frankly, I'm appalled.

There was internal conflict inside Rap about this. That is why We Love Avondale popped up out of nowhere. Rap and spar in previous years get too much flak from the squakers that dont have all the information. The design does look like a strip mall though but hopefully they can use brick and other period sensative materials.

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on August 23, 2012, 09:22:58 AM

Quote from: mtraininjax on August 23, 2012, 07:43:13 AM

QuoteThey're running the neighborhood like an outlaw biker gang these days.

I do believe this could be a new thread...... 8)

QuoteAvondale lost and that they chose to follow a few idiots instead of using their own common sense.

Avondale did not lose, John compromised and we both won. We get one of the best pizza places, I have ever been to, and I grew up around them in Atlanta, so I am very happy, we are getting a fine restaurant and great local business partner. 

You can't always get what you want, but you "do" get what you need, in our case, we got our MM here in Avondale!

Hogwash.

Mellow Mushroom was coming regardless, all this managed to do was screw the neighborhood out of a nice adaptive reuse and into a demolition & replacement with a suburban-style box, all in exchange for 4 parking spaces. Frankly, I'm appalled.

So wait, Mr. Chris...

You do support Mellow Mushroom and their original plans, but not their revised plans after the WLA (We Love Avondale) and RAP ransacked it?

-Josh

God forbid a place to get pizza late at night! What parking hating monsters.

Quote from: Tacachale on August 23, 2012, 09:41:28 AM
God forbid a place to get pizza late at night! What parking hating monsters.

"That's what Hungry Howie's is for.  YOU DON'T NEED MORE THAN ONE LATE NIGHT PIZZA PLACE. WE'RE NOT NEW YORK CITY"
-RAP

Perhaps we need to create a group called WeLoveTheOldGasStation and hire an attorney to fight it being torn down and replaced by a stripmall.

If the compromise isn't going to make RAP and the NIMBYs happy just go with the better original design.

I am forwarding this to a few people I know who work in the Shoppes.  I'm probably on the extreme side, but I'd rather have the abandoned gas station/grass lot than the revised proposal.  Every city has power hungry people, but very few cities have as many total idiots running the show across all aspects of the city as Jacksonville has.  Jacksonville's most progressive urban neighborhood is hardly being progressive right now.

Between Jim Love, Robin Lumb, RAP, We Love Avondale, LLC, and other groups including residents and business owners who are all worked up about parking for no reason, I see little hope in Jacksonville having any truly urban and progressive districts.  It's really really quite embarassing.

How many of us have read Wood's book bemoaning existing buildings being demolished and replaced with empty lots? I sure have.

Quote from: wsansewjs on August 23, 2012, 09:25:57 AM

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on August 23, 2012, 09:22:58 AM

Quote from: mtraininjax on August 23, 2012, 07:43:13 AM

QuoteThey're running the neighborhood like an outlaw biker gang these days.

I do believe this could be a new thread...... 8)

QuoteAvondale lost and that they chose to follow a few idiots instead of using their own common sense.

Avondale did not lose, John compromised and we both won. We get one of the best pizza places, I have ever been to, and I grew up around them in Atlanta, so I am very happy, we are getting a fine restaurant and great local business partner. 

You can't always get what you want, but you "do" get what you need, in our case, we got our MM here in Avondale!

Hogwash.

Mellow Mushroom was coming regardless, all this managed to do was screw the neighborhood out of a nice adaptive reuse and into a demolition & replacement with a suburban-style box, all in exchange for 4 parking spaces. Frankly, I'm appalled.

So wait, Mr. Chris...

You do support Mellow Mushroom and their original plans, but not their revised plans after the WLA (We Love Avondale) and RAP ransacked it?

-Josh

It's not that I support/don't support it, I just saw the old design and noted it was one of the better and more well-integrated examples of adaptive reuse that I've seen in this city. Then I looked at the new design, which calls for demolition and replacement with a suburban box, and am having a hard time understanding how or why we traded one for the other, in exchange for 4 parking spaces. Somebody overplayed their hand on this one, and really screwed the neighborhood.

So I can't put a new window in my house, but I can tear down a whole building in the name of parking?  Houses in the area in disrepair or the house 2 down from me that is basically abandoned is OK?

Please tell me Mellow Mushroom is going to put up signs on the new spaces as MM parking only and aggressively tow.  No TV after 9?  So no one can go to MM to watch a Jags game outdoors, but go ahead to West Inn and watch it on a busted old tube TV?

Very frustrated that this group is trying to limit the natural growth of the area.  Why make the area as a go to destination when we can protect the sleepy, overpriced clothing stores and real estate office parking.

We are a busy family.  Can't keep up and attend all the meetings that seem to take place right when everyone is at work or school.  However if anyone knows whom to contact to voice my opinion / frustration that will get heard let me know.  Proud to say I didn't vote for Jim Love.

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on August 23, 2012, 10:34:53 AM

Quote from: wsansewjs on August 23, 2012, 09:25:57 AM

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on August 23, 2012, 09:22:58 AM

Quote from: mtraininjax on August 23, 2012, 07:43:13 AM

QuoteThey're running the neighborhood like an outlaw biker gang these days.

I do believe this could be a new thread...... 8)

QuoteAvondale lost and that they chose to follow a few idiots instead of using their own common sense.

Avondale did not lose, John compromised and we both won. We get one of the best pizza places, I have ever been to, and I grew up around them in Atlanta, so I am very happy, we are getting a fine restaurant and great local business partner. 

You can't always get what you want, but you "do" get what you need, in our case, we got our MM here in Avondale!

Hogwash.

Mellow Mushroom was coming regardless, all this managed to do was screw the neighborhood out of a nice adaptive reuse and into a demolition & replacement with a suburban-style box, all in exchange for 4 parking spaces. Frankly, I'm appalled.

So wait, Mr. Chris...

You do support Mellow Mushroom and their original plans, but not their revised plans after the WLA (We Love Avondale) and RAP ransacked it?

-Josh

It's not that I support/don't support it, I just saw the old design and noted it was one of the better and more well-integrated examples of adaptive reuse that I've seen in this city. Then I looked at the new design, which calls for demolition and replacement with a suburban box, and am having a hard time understanding how or why we traded one for the other, in exchange for 4 parking spaces. Somebody overplayed their hand on this one, and really screwed the neighborhood.

We need to find the master of this hand who overplayed hardcore on this issue, and hold him/her accountable.

-Josh

Quote from: stephendare on August 23, 2012, 11:18:25 AM
Adam Hollingsworth.

BOOM!

I'll admit that I don't know a lot about Hollingsworth, so i did some research.  The most substantive article I found was in the Tampa Bay Times.  The main things it mentions about his time in Jacksonville politics are as follows:

QuoteHollingsworth was one of the "Jacksonville 11" â€" city officials who accepted freebies including tickets to Jaguars football games. But the state Commission on Ethics ruled that no penalties should be imposed because city gift laws were confusing.

In the aftermath of Tropical Storm Fay in 2008, while serving as Peyton's chief of staff, Hollingsworth got calls from his former boss, U.S. Rep. Corrine Brown and state Rep. Denise Lee worried about flooding in their homes. Hollingsworth obliged them by dispatching city staff to their homes with sandbags, which Peyton called a mistake.

When neighbors complained they didn't get the same help, Hollingsworth took the blame for not following city emergency protocols and personally paid for the cost of assisting Lee.

On the whole, the piece seems positive, but it really glosses over what I would deem some big missteps.

http://www.tampabay.com/news/politics/gubernatorial/adam-hollingsworth-gov-rick-scotts-new-right-hand-man/1244174

I thought this post was satire :-\

Really?  They are tearing down an historic builidng to gain only 4 (four!!!) parking spots, and that's OK?

Is this an Onion piece?

Quote from: Debbie Thompson on August 23, 2012, 12:39:55 PM
Really?  They are tearing down an historic building to gain only 4 (four!!!) parking spots, and that's OK?

I don't believe the gas station is considered historic. However, I agree that the adaptive reuse plan was an exciting one. Does this new plan mean all the discussion about better parking management for the Shoppes is over now?

Can't wait for We Love Avondale to still not be happy and push forward.  I can see it now, The term "restaurant" is a little bit of an overkill.  How about we just call it a "Rest-or-not".  And instead of a building and dining, we can just have a bench.  And instead of serving food, 2 friends could bring their lunch and eat it on the bench....so long as they walk and don't talk too loud.

What a loss for the Riverside/Avondale area.  We love our outdoor patio and music here in Fleming Island.  Sounds like you all have been MORE than accommodating.  Such a shame they have to be so picky.

Quote from: Bridges on August 23, 2012, 02:06:22 PM
Can't wait for We Love Avondale to still not be happy and push forward.  I can see it now, The term "restaurant" is a little bit of an overkill.  How about we just call it a "Rest-or-not".  And instead of a building and dining, we can just have a bench.  And instead of serving food, 2 friends could bring their lunch and eat it on the bench....so long as they walk and don't talk too loud.

Just build a Rally's. Two drive-throughs and no need for much parking. Plus you get a couple of picnic tables.

...and Rap Cat!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSktDO-v038&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSktDO-v038&feature=related)

Everybody settle down, isn't it obvious that all Avondale needed to solve its problems was an additional 4 parking spaces?  These four parking spaces are going to save Avondale from the brink of destruction.  You'll be amazed at what a strip mall parking lot can do to restore the historic character of the shops.

I'm going to get my mellow mushroom pizza to go and take it to the tables outside the Brick. 

...so, if we all go to MM at 9:30, park in the parking lot and turn our car radios on to the same station at the same time and roll our windows down...

is that still just parking? :)

I find it ironic that you have rules for one set of establishments and a completely other set of rules for another.  I though discrimination was illegal?  What does We Love Avondale, LLC have against Pizza?  Is it because of it's Italian orgins? 

I always liked this place when I lived in Charlotte

(http://mw2.google.com/mw-panoramio/photos/medium/19369709.jpg)
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_-28UC1WqIJc/StZsqIoghvI/AAAAAAAABX0/rNexfi8pZdk/s1600-h/charlotte+051.JPG)

Quote from: KEGreene1 on August 23, 2012, 02:41:42 PM
I find it ironic that you have rules for one set of establishments and a completely other set of rules for another.  I though discrimination was illegal?  What does We Love Avondale, LLC have against Pizza?  Is it because of it's Italian orgins?

Fear of competition.

Quote from: Captain Zissou on August 23, 2012, 02:18:30 PM
I'm going to get my mellow mushroom pizza to go and take it to the tables outside the Brick.

Now we're talking!

All of you are awesome...it has been a while since I laughed this hard. My side actually hurts. Thank you.

I think we should all visit RAP at the same time â€" they better have enough parking for all of us.

Serious question though:  What does the Governor's Chief of Staff, Mr. Hollingsworth, have to do with We Love Avondale, LLC?  I didn't realize this was a State matter.  I know that MM has been pretty transparent, do we know exactly who is hiding behind their banner (and the outrageous untruths they are printing)?

This is all just a little too ridiculous. I would take the old plan any day over the new one and 4 extra spaces. The shops of Avondale reek of double standards.

I will show my support for Mellow by riding my bike up there and enjoying some pizza and beer once they open.

Side note:

When/where is 'town moving?

Quote from: Debbie Thompson on August 23, 2012, 12:39:55 PM
Really?  They are tearing down an historic builidng to gain only 4 (four!!!) parking spots, and that's OK?

not that it matters (because this still sucks) but the drawings seem to show a total of 9 additional spaces in the new plan

Quote from: ben says on August 23, 2012, 04:36:07 PM
Side note:

When/where is 'town moving?

'town has been closed for over 2 months

So I emailed some folks today and one response I received was that he had already emailed Jim Love.  How's that?  So we have some residents, business owners and general citizenry who are on the We Love Avondale side, and then we have a group who have lived elsewhere and actually understand bigger picture.  Too many narrow minded, constricted views in Jacksonville, even in the core.

And the hypocrisy!  WOW!

Here is the email that was sent:

QuoteI believe it very unfortunate that you became embroiled in the Mellow Mushroom debate.  We live in a market society with laws, regulations, and zoning that permit businesses to open and operate according to law.  By siding with We Love Avondale LLC, I hope that you have not ruined Avondale’s future business prospects.  I just am surprised that Mellow Mushroom has agreed to your ridiculous terms.  Why will MM not be able to play music outdoors and close at 12:00, when others do not have too? 

The whole argument started with a few who live nearby complaining that cars were illegally parking, and some people had too much to drink (not MM’s fault).  We already have parking laws, and with a few cars towed away, maybe the illegal parking would stop.  Furthermore, it is illegal to drive while intoxicated.  But instead of hitting this issue, you went after a legitimate business, one that most people want to see.  I thought that RAP and other such organizations were adamantly opposed to razing “historic” buildings and this one was built in 1964, so again, more hypocrisy.

To end, how will the West End sale be impacted by your actions and the We Love AV crowd when another good buyer looks at Avondale and dares not enter the market for fear of attack?  The same for the next tenants at MoJo’s, Casbah, and the Brick?  I lived in Coconut Grove â€"Miami, much bigger than Avondale, and something like this would have been unheard of, just like so many other urban neighborhoods all over the country.  You inserted government into a place where it has no business.  Jacksonville will never grow out of the “good ole boy” mentality with this meddling.  In my opinion, you and your fellow councilmen have been the worst in recent Jacksonville history just in the last month alone.

We should all email similar letters to Jim Love and to any person in any position of power over such matters.  I am so proud to know the author of that email and citizen engagement like his might just turn the city around (along with our board, which seems to grow more powerful with each year).

Quote from: tufsu1 on August 23, 2012, 04:37:37 PM

Quote from: Debbie Thompson on August 23, 2012, 12:39:55 PM
Really?  They are tearing down an historic builidng to gain only 4 (four!!!) parking spots, and that's OK?

not that it matters (because this still sucks) but the drawings seem to show a total of 9 additional spaces in the new plan

Bro, it's 4 (maybe 5). We love Avondale is counting 3 spaces that aren't going to be there.

I'm actually shocked that no one has taken to the comments on http://weloveavondale.com/ (http://weloveavondale.com/) or their Facebook page.

Quote from: JHAT76 on August 23, 2012, 10:38:22 AM
So I can't put a new window in my house, but I can tear down a whole building in the name of parking?  Houses in the area in disrepair or the house 2 down from me that is basically abandoned is OK?

Please tell me Mellow Mushroom is going to put up signs on the new spaces as MM parking only and aggressively tow.  No TV after 9?  So no one can go to MM to watch a Jags game outdoors, but go ahead to West Inn and watch it on a busted old tube TV?

I can say that my parents discounted Avondale as a neighborhood to move to with regulations RAP put into place concerning what one can and cannot do with their own house, only some of which makes sense.  It takes a special person to live in Avondale and put up with not being able to necessarily do half of what you want with your house, and then of course as we can all very visibly see there are a lot of houses that need A LOT of work.  On the Riverside Ave side of the Shoppes some of the houses even look downright abandoned with overgrown yards, so of course visitors from elsewhere may feel they can park there.

These restrictions served more of a purpose 2-3 decades ago to preserve building fabric and should be loosened now to attract a higher end resident wanting the feel of Avondale but the ability to create something not necessarily 1926 looking.  The best neighborhoods in the country in terms of aesthetics have strict codes, but usually related to scale and height and use of materials, not necessarily architectural "style".  For instance there are plenty of contemporary townhomes in brownstone districts in Manhattan and the Meatpacking/Chelsea districts mix old brick warehouses with striking modern hotels and office buildings.

OK, that out of the way, so RAP is practically a history book nazi organization that has ruled with an iron fist and dissuaded tons of people from moving to the neighborhood, including my own parents.  Then they force demolition of a structure and increased parking to fit a suburban development on an urban corner?

The hypocrisy is so bad RAP should literally be disbanded and forced to cease and desist all actions and powers against all property owners within the historic district.  This is the proof needed that RAP no longer serves its purpose and is a detriment to the neighborhood (whereas we can all agree 2-4 decades ago the neighborhood *needed* RAP).

Get rid of these "Preservation" groups and put into place something akin to Neighborhood Planning boards, which don't focus just on making sure an individual homeowner's addition looks exactly like it was built in 1915 along with the rest of the house or that the paint color isn't too eye catching, but rather acts as a voice for the overall community on issues related to crime, new developments, transit, events, etc.  MUCH more useful than a fascist regulatory preservation "committee" that can push property owners around in the name of preservation.

OK, rant over.

Quote from: Bridges on August 23, 2012, 04:59:25 PM
I'm actually shocked that no one has taken to the comments on http://weloveavondale.com/ (http://weloveavondale.com/) or their Facebook page.

i just did... although we'll see if the moderators for the site approve it.

The Asheville location gives a good idea of what the outside seating would have looked like.  Too bad they're tearing down the gas station.

Quote from: Bridges on August 23, 2012, 04:59:25 PM
I'm actually shocked that no one has taken to the comments on http://weloveavondale.com/ (http://weloveavondale.com/) or their Facebook page.

Oh no! Check out this "unsettling scene" where a fire truck can't fit down a road with cars parked on both sides..... except anyone with eyes can clearly see there is more than enough room. Pathetic.

www.weloveavondale.com/?p=20

The fire truck thing is a red herring.  This is how you solve that problem on narrow streets that were not designed for today's vehicles and multiple car households:

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Hyde-Park-Tampa/i-j3L9NM4/0/M/P1550807-M.jpg)

Quote from: thelakelander on August 23, 2012, 05:37:35 PM
The fire truck thing is a red herring.  This is how you solve that problem on narrow streets that were not designed for today's vehicles and multiple car households:

This wouldn't even be a first for Jax.  Check out Sorrento and many of the roads near San Marco Square.  Avondale will soon lose residents to San Marco if this trend of anti-business and over-regulation continues.  I am considering the move in a few months.

Quote from: thelakelander on August 23, 2012, 05:37:35 PM
The fire truck thing is a red herring.  This is how you solve that problem on narrow streets that were not designed for today's vehicles and multiple car households:

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Hyde-Park-Tampa/i-j3L9NM4/0/M/P1550807-M.jpg)

I pointed that out to billy nussbaum when he mentioned it as a problem already.  All they have to do is call the city now and show the pictures, city should come out and put up no parking signs on one side.  Of course, this would cause the homeowners to no be able to park there.  So maybe emergency vehicles aren't really of a concern to them.

Quote from: Captain Zissou on August 23, 2012, 04:56:38 PM

Quote from: tufsu1 on August 23, 2012, 04:37:37 PM

Quote from: Debbie Thompson on August 23, 2012, 12:39:55 PM
Really?  They are tearing down an historic builidng to gain only 4 (four!!!) parking spots, and that's OK?

not that it matters (because this still sucks) but the drawings seem to show a total of 9 additional spaces in the new plan

Bro, it's 4 (maybe 5). We love Avondale is counting 3 spaces that aren't going to be there.

sorry I can't add...its 11 spaces....just count the spaces on the side/back in Mellow's original design (16) and the revised plan (27)...what am I missing?

MM simply must work with the community.The community orientation is in fact the rule of existing law/Overlay,effective legal standing via the likes of WLA.

I keep posting that many in Avondale want the area to be Oakleaf/Julington/ Queens harbor with older homes but people don't believe it. Well look at the modified design plan and try to tell me they don't have burb envy.

Quote from: JeffreyS on August 23, 2012, 11:05:15 PM
I keep posting that many in Avondale want the area to be Oakleaf/Julington/ Queens harbor with older homes but people don't believe it. Well look at the modified design plan and try to tell me they don't have burb envy.

I had been under the impression that RAP was actually in the business of historical preservation, not being an HOA. Have I been wrong?

in its current form let's say your half right.

It is an HOA.  The whole appeal of historic neighborhoods outside of walkability and charm is the fact that you don't have someone telling you what plants are allowed, what color the trim can be on your house, what kinds of cars you can park visibly in your driveway, who you can have over, etc.

Unfortunately, those with enough money to fix up some of these larger old homes and *modernize* them to today's standards incorporating a few modern design techniques here and there are often prevented from coming to the neighborhood to make such an investment because rules forbid them essentially from spending the money.

And it's like SRG - no offense, those new homes meant to look old are cute but *boring*.  Instead of SPAR allowing homes to be destroyed, it should have encouraged freelance design on empty lots so that both people interested in historic preservation and people interested in the neighborhood but also interested in new construction (that doesn't necessarily look like an 1915 knockoff) on an empty lot could move in.

We've preserved (well in SPAR's case they did the opposite and now I suppose RAP is hand picking what they feel should be preserved and what should not), so now it's time for CIDs and neighborhood planning associations rather than antiquated perservation boards.

MetroJacksonville should do a large photo essay on modern additions to old buildings, or contemporary design mixed in with really old urban areas.  I'm not just talking SFR like the density characteristics of Jacksonville or much of the South, but on larger scales as often seen in much older cities like NYC, Boston, DC, Chicago, San Francisco.  Everybody's doing it, including my own company (adding two very contemporary additions to a 100+ old 1.1M SF building in Manhattan).  I love how 1234 Oak mixes in with both the new infill construction meant to look older and the older homes and apartments near 5 Points.

There is proper and normal regulation and then there is preservation fascism.

The preponderance of HOA and HOA-like organizations in this state is absolutely mystifying to me.

I be surprised if anything like this would be allowed in... pretty much every SFH part of Jacksonville.

(http://cdn.cstatic.net/cache/gallery/5308/5669741933_2eb99e1057_o.jpg)
House of light in Chicago's Lincoln Park (http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/1828-N-Orleans-St-Chicago-IL-60614/3741781_zpid/)

Quote from: JeffreyS on August 23, 2012, 11:05:15 PM
I keep posting that many in Avondale want the area to be Oakleaf/Julington/ Queens harbor with older homes but people don't believe it. Well look at the modified design plan and try to tell me they don't have burb envy.

maybe partially true....but real burb envy would have put the parking lot up front

So this is the planning advice the WLA group is getting from Susan Fraser?  As the former planning director of Clay County, I would expect more from her than this.  I don't know many professional planners that would promote a generic strip mall over an adaptive reuse project.  But then again, maybe this explains the proliferation of strip malls in Clay County

Quote from: cline on August 24, 2012, 09:04:04 AM
So this is the planning advice the WLA group is getting from Susan Fraser?  As the former planning director of Clay County, I would expect more from her than this.  I don't know many professional planners that would promote a generic strip mall over an adaptive reuse project.  But then again, maybe this explains the proliferation of strip malls in Clay County

I think you are greatly overestimating Susan Fraser.  She will promote whatever makes her the most money.   She was in the pocket of developers during her time in Clay.  In Clay you have to pay to play!

Once again, for the benefit of listeners just joining us, Mellow Mushroom's plan would have saved and adapted the gas station. We Love Avondale, and evidently Riverside Avondale Preservation, want to demolish the building for a parking lot.

For some context, here's an entry from the online version of Jacksonville's Architectural Heritage by preservation hero Wayne Wood on the demolition of the Heard National Bank Building and two others for a parking lot:

Quote
This is not historic preservation.  In 1981-1982, the Barnett Bank demolished three of Downtown's most interesting buildings:  the G. D. Jackson Building, a Prairie School gem by H. J. Klutho (1914);  the Ritz-Woller Building, Downtown's oldest building (1876); and the Heard National Bank Building...

http://www.jaxhistory.com/Jax%20Arch%20Herit/D-57.htm


Here's a Folio article on the Mellow Mushroom dispute with the following quote from Jim Love:

Quote
“There are a lot of ways to solve it. You don’t want to tear down houses and build parking lots or parking garages,” Love said.

http://www.folioweekly.com/folio0807wkl007.php


Here are some interesting quotes from RAP's own blog regarding the proposed 2009 demolition of historic buildings near Memorial Park, emphasis mine:

Quote
RAP has always supported smart growth. Some might think that’s a crazy position for an organization dedicated to historic preservation. But there clearly are instances where the judicious removal of vacant, derelict structures can bring new development and vitality to areas that face an uncertain future.

...

However, our position remains that demolition should be done only as a last resort, and so RAP is decidedly NOT in favor of The Renaissance Group’s reported proposal to tear down the historic buildings at 2008 Riverside Ave and 1732 Margaret St.

http://riverside-avondale.blogspot.com/2009/05/rap-opposes-demolition-of-historic.html

Even though it isn't a contributing structure, the Gas Station carries a great deal of history and nostalgia with many people in the neighborhood.

The adaptive reuse would have added character, and PRESERVED some history of the Shoppes.

Quote from: tufsu1 on August 24, 2012, 07:57:34 AM

Quote from: JeffreyS on August 23, 2012, 11:05:15 PM
I keep posting that many in Avondale want the area to be Oakleaf/Julington/ Queens harbor with older homes but people don't believe it. Well look at the modified design plan and try to tell me they don't have burb envy.

maybe partially true....but real burb envy would have put the parking lot up front

I think that up front parking could qualify as RAP porn. The fantasy threesome they are still too afraid to pursue but you know they dreaming about it.

Quote from: Gators312 on August 24, 2012, 09:25:56 AM
Even though it isn't a contributing structure, the Gas Station carries a great deal of history and nostalgia with many people in the neighborhood.

The adaptive reuse would have added character, and PRESERVED some history of the Shoppes.

To go along with that.  When can we call a building historical enough to save?  Should it be an arbitrary date?  What was built originally or as originally planned in 1910 or whenever the area was officially laid out?  If we do that we will never see the area turn into something more than just a bunch of old houses.  I would like more than that.  I would like to see my property value increase please. 

I do not care that much about saving the gas station as having the better of the two designs.

Quote from: JeffreyS on August 24, 2012, 10:09:12 AM
I do not care that much about saving the gas station as having the better of the two designs.

Amen! The new designs look so much better then keeping the gas station.

QuoteThe new designs look so much better then keeping the gas station.

What is it specifically about the new design that you like better?

Quote from: fieldafm on August 24, 2012, 11:10:29 AM

QuoteThe new designs look so much better then keeping the gas station.

What is it specifically about the new design that you like better?

I like the modern look of the building it fits the space. With a lot of outside patio tables. The new parking where the old gas station is now looks good.

Quote from: If_I_Loved_you on August 24, 2012, 11:06:22 AM

Quote from: JeffreyS on August 24, 2012, 10:09:12 AM
I do not care that much about saving the gas station as having the better of the two designs.

Amen! The new designs look so much better then keeping the gas station.

That's the literal exact opposite of what the person you quoted said...

QuoteWith a lot of outside patio tables.

The outside seating was cut by over a half. 

Quote from: fieldafm on August 24, 2012, 11:33:11 AM

QuoteWith a lot of outside patio tables.

The outside seating was cut by over a half.

One does have to compromise, I just hope that area is Non Smoking!

Quote from: JHAT76 on August 24, 2012, 09:59:40 AM

Quote from: Gators312 on August 24, 2012, 09:25:56 AM
Even though it isn't a contributing structure, the Gas Station carries a great deal of history and nostalgia with many people in the neighborhood.

The adaptive reuse would have added character, and PRESERVED some history of the Shoppes.

To go along with that.  When can we call a building historical enough to save?  Should it be an arbitrary date?  What was built originally or as originally planned in 1910 or whenever the area was officially laid out?  If we do that we will never see the area turn into something more than just a bunch of old houses.  I would like more than that.  I would like to see my property value increase please. 

RAP was created in 1974 to preserve buildings that were mostly built around the 1920's- so not unlike people in 2012 wanting to keep a building around that was built in the 1960's.

I agree though- gas station nostolgia aside, the original design was far superior, provided green/community space and reused an exsisting structure. The greenest building is the one already built.

Quote from: If_I_Loved_you on August 24, 2012, 11:29:56 AM

Quote from: fieldafm on August 24, 2012, 11:10:29 AM

QuoteThe new designs look so much better then keeping the gas station.

What is it specifically about the new design that you like better?

I like the modern look of the building it fits the space. With a lot of outside patio tables. The new parking where the old gas station is now looks good.

I can't tell if you're trying to make a joke, or if you just have horrible taste.

Quote from: iluvolives on August 24, 2012, 11:53:45 AM

Quote from: JHAT76 on August 24, 2012, 09:59:40 AM

Quote from: Gators312 on August 24, 2012, 09:25:56 AM
Even though it isn't a contributing structure, the Gas Station carries a great deal of history and nostalgia with many people in the neighborhood.

The adaptive reuse would have added character, and PRESERVED some history of the Shoppes.

To go along with that.  When can we call a building historical enough to save?  Should it be an arbitrary date?  What was built originally or as originally planned in 1910 or whenever the area was officially laid out?  If we do that we will never see the area turn into something more than just a bunch of old houses.  I would like more than that.  I would like to see my property value increase please. 

RAP was created in 1974 to preserve buildings that were mostly built around the 1920's- so not unlike people in 2012 wanting to keep a building around that was built in the 1960's.

I agree though- gas station nostolgia aside, the original design was far superior, provided green/community space and reused an exsisting structure. The greenest building is the one already built.

RAP is a joke I remember back when the Riviera Parkway Apartments were to be torn down? RAP said this about the older apartments "The existing Riviera Parkway buildings have been renovated and altered sufficiently in the past that they are not worth preserving as historical structures, Grissett said. "They're non-contributing structures because of the changes they've made [over the years]," she said.

Quote from: Captain Zissou on August 24, 2012, 12:11:56 PM

Quote from: If_I_Loved_you on August 24, 2012, 11:29:56 AM

Quote from: fieldafm on August 24, 2012, 11:10:29 AM

QuoteThe new designs look so much better then keeping the gas station.

What is it specifically about the new design that you like better?

I like the modern look of the building it fits the space. With a lot of outside patio tables. The new parking where the old gas station is now looks good.

I can't tell if you're trying to make a joke, or if you just have horrible taste.

The really funny thing Captain Zissou this project is going to happen and the new design looks so much better then that old nasty looking gas station!  ;)

Quote from: If_I_Loved_you on August 24, 2012, 12:26:54 PM

Quote from: Captain Zissou on August 24, 2012, 12:11:56 PM

Quote from: If_I_Loved_you on August 24, 2012, 11:29:56 AM

Quote from: fieldafm on August 24, 2012, 11:10:29 AM

QuoteThe new designs look so much better then keeping the gas station.

What is it specifically about the new design that you like better?

I like the modern look of the building it fits the space. With a lot of outside patio tables. The new parking where the old gas station is now looks good.

I can't tell if you're trying to make a joke, or if you just have horrible taste.

The really funny thing Captain Zissou this project is going to happen and the new design looks so much better then that old nasty looking gas station!  ;)

It looks better than the old gas station, to be sure, but the MM proposed design is far superior to the new one.  The new one has no thought behind it, no consideration to the environment it creates and how it interacts with the environment immediately surrounding it.  The new design is almost the mirror image of the MM on Southside Blvd, which does not belong in a historic district.

This is sad. Do we need to start a new organization to remind RAP of the spirit under which it was founded. RAPP: Riverside Avondale Preservation Preservation: an organization dedicated to restoring RAP to its roots, wherein it actually advocates for preservation of historic structures and the *historic character of the neighborhood, conceding demolition of non-contributing structures only as a last resort.

*Also, there will be a reminder to RAP that the historic character of the neighborhood did NOT, in fact, involve driving everywhere you went and being able to park within 20 feet of it when you did.

"We Love Avondale" is simply a menace. Mellow Mushroom should tell them both to go to...somewhere hot. Considering the original versus the "conceded" design, I'd rather have the folks running Mellow Mushroom advocating for the preservation of my neighborhood than either of these two groups.

Quote from: Captain Zissou on August 24, 2012, 12:43:31 PM

Quote from: If_I_Loved_you on August 24, 2012, 12:26:54 PM

Quote from: Captain Zissou on August 24, 2012, 12:11:56 PM

Quote from: If_I_Loved_you on August 24, 2012, 11:29:56 AM

Quote from: fieldafm on August 24, 2012, 11:10:29 AM

QuoteThe new designs look so much better then keeping the gas station.

What is it specifically about the new design that you like better?

I like the modern look of the building it fits the space. With a lot of outside patio tables. The new parking where the old gas station is now looks good.

I can't tell if you're trying to make a joke, or if you just have horrible taste.

The really funny thing Captain Zissou this project is going to happen and the new design looks so much better then that old nasty looking gas station!  ;)

It looks better than the old gas station, to be sure, but the MM proposed design is far superior to the new one.  The new one has no thought behind it, no consideration to the environment it creates and how it interacts with the environment immediately surrounding it.  The new design is almost the mirror image of the MM on Southside Blvd, which does not belong in a historic district.

The Southside blvd mellow mushroom design goes with that strip mall style. Now come on Captain Zissou you know the Avondale site will not mirror that design. Sure the plans laid out call for stucco and brick but it will look a lot better then any other MM in Jacksonville.

^Sure, but why do we need to be hoping for modest incremental improvement?  MM's original design would have been so far beyond any restaurant currently in town that it would rase the bar for what is expected.  Let's aim for great, not just slightly better.

I imagine the new MM will look like tht Brixx at the beach, which isn't bad.  It still won't be anything close to the original design.

^In a vacuum I'm sure the new design would be fine. But here, we had a previous plan that was much better looking, included a public green space, and adapted an existing building. On top of lacking those things, the new projected will demolish an existing building and replace it with a parking lot. This is more than a little sad.

Quote from: Tacachale on August 24, 2012, 02:36:11 PM
^In a vacuum I'm sure the new design would be fine. But here, we had a previous plan that was much better looking, included a public green space, and adapted an existing building. On top of lacking those things, the new projected will demolish an existing building and replace it with a parking lot. This is more than a little sad.

But the original design didn't work with the project MM needed more parking spaces. And the old design was for more of a party atmosphere that the "We love Avondale LLC" didn't want along with others?

So...............??  I don't want the Brick to exist anymore, but that doesn't mean I have the right to shut them down.  WLA is just a bully that is attacking an honest business owner just because they feel like it.

Quote from: Captain Zissou on August 24, 2012, 03:34:41 PM
So...............??  I don't want the Brick to exist anymore, but that doesn't mean I have the right to shut them down.  WLA is just a bully that is attacking an honest business owner just because they feel like it.

WLA hasn't shut anyone down C.Z. MM hasn't even been built in Avondale. Lets talk about the "historic district of Avondale" the Prudential Network Realty building? Years ago that was a convenience store talk about having no historic value at all!

QuoteBut the original design didn't work with the project MM needed more parking spaces. And the old design was for more of a party atmosphere that the "We love Avondale LLC" didn't want along with others?

Painting a picture that Mellow Mushroom is a nightclub full of drunken frat boys who will terrorize the neighborhood with raucose panty raids is, in fact the most despicable lie this small opposition group is propogating. 

We Love Avondale doesnt want the restaurant to open... period.  You don't present a VERY poorly designed alternative site proposal, get the developer to consent to virtually every major concession on said poorly designed site layout and then subsequently oppose your own site design... all the while play politics behind the scenes about the withdraw of the PUD application AFTER the developer has negotiated in what was supposed to be good faith with the opposition group, which then triggers the developer to follow the new guidelines under Love's moratorium/seating reduction bills, even though the original application was submitted before that bill was passed, b/c again this is a new site layout that is different from the original application.

You don't do all of those things if you really wanted to work a compromise.  You do these things b/c you are trying every way imaginable not to let the restaurant open.

That's what's really going on here. 

YET STILL, no discernable parking study has been conducted, no comprehensive transportation plan has been put together for the neighborhood, no implementation of parking mgmt practices have begun and no plans have been presented to enhannce pedestrian safety nor emergency vehicle access.

These are the ACTUAL issues.  Everything else is just a sideshow to arbitrarily oppose a business from opening in the area that is being led by restaurant owners(the very ones who have for years enjoyed the same relaxed standards in the Overlay) who are scared of the competition.

Quote from: fieldafm on August 24, 2012, 03:54:36 PM

QuoteBut the original design didn't work with the project MM needed more parking spaces. And the old design was for more of a party atmosphere that the "We love Avondale LLC" didn't want along with others?

Painting a picture that Mellow Mushroom is a nightclub full of drunken frat boys who will terrorize the neighborhood with raucose panty raids is, in fact the most despicable lie this small opposition group is propogating. 

We Love Avondale doesnt want the restaurant to open... period.  You don't present a VERY poorly designed alternative site proposal, get the developer to consent to virtually every major concession on said poorly designed site layout and then subsequently oppose your own site design... all the while play politics behind the scenes about the withdraw of the PUD application AFTER the developer has negotiated in what was supposed to be good faith with the opposition group, which then triggers the developer to follow the new guidelines under Love's moratorium/seating reduction bills, even though the original application was submitted before that bill was passed, b/c again this is a new site layout that is different from the original application.

You don't do all of those things if you really wanted to work a compromise.  You do these things b/c you are trying every way imaginable not to let the restaurant open.

That's what's really going on here. 

YET STILL, no discernable parking study has been conducted, no comprehensive transportation plan has been put together for the neighborhood, no implementation of parking mgmt practices have begun and no plans have been presented to enhannce pedestrian safety nor emergency vehicle access.

These are the ACTUAL issues.  Everything else is just a sideshow to arbitrarily oppose a business from opening in the area that is being led by restaurant owners(the very ones who have for years enjoyed the same relaxed standards in the Overlay) who are scared of the competition.

In other words, we have a group opposing an innovative adaptive reuse, by presenting a plan that demolishes a structure for a parking lot, all so they can get their wish of having an empty building at a prime corner. Sounds reasonable to me.

Well, the other argument not really mentioned is that the opposition to MM is bad, very bad for every other landlord on the street and will surely dissuade any other decent tenants from even considering Avondale.

You want a decent name brand soft goods store?  You landlords want a little bit of credit or a better sponsor for your tenant?  You want to be able to get out of your investment?  You might need to do a quick 1031 someday?  We Love Avondale and Jim Love have effectively killed all outside interest in Avondale going forward.

Too many people without a clue of design, of how similar neighborhoods have successfully blossomed elsewhere (not enough people in Jax, especially in Ortega/Avondale, travel), oh how real estate works, of how tenants think, of what's really best for the neighborhood.  And yet all these clueless people are getting involved.

The same reason why downtown is so undesirable could be a reason for Avondale being undesirable for tenants, investors, etc going forward.  Do we want Avondale to turn into downtown?  Ask yourself because overstepping regulatory bounds is the worst thing one can do.  No regulation is much better than too much regulation by ill informed parties.

And frankly restaurants pay much higher rent than regional/national clothing retailers.  They sign longer terms.  Their operations and sponsors are usually riskier, but they are much more profitable to landlords.  Now every landlord on the street can look forward to a lack of any interest by restaurant operators and without foot traffic and certain appeal, the better clothing stores every landlord dreams of signing on will not look at the area either.  Now you'll be stuck with gift stores, candle pop ups, real estate offices, and maybe some nail salons.  Have fun with that.

Why do you keep singling out these two specific individuals? Are you claiming that RAP is down to two people or that no other RAP member has any backbone? Also do you know how we can find out the list of individuals who make up the group WLA, LLC?

Attention to the business owners of MM who wants to build MM in Avondale:

Completely IGNORE RAP and We Love Avondale organizations. Continue to build your ORIGINAL design with very minor changes or additional enhancement to preserve the historical elements of the local Avondale community.

ChrisUFGator, does these crazy organizations have any legal jurisdictional power to intervene any development, or they are just bunch of powerless crying babies?

-Josh

Quote from: stephendare on August 24, 2012, 04:45:58 PM

Quote from: thelakelander on August 24, 2012, 04:42:33 PM
Why do you keep singling out these two specific individuals? Are you claiming that RAP is down to two people or that no other RAP member has any backbone? Also do you know how we can find out the list of individuals who make up the group WLA, LLC?

Because one is the executive director of the organization and the other one is the power behind the throne, obviously, Lake. 

At the end of the day, its their responsibility

If RAP is truly run by two people, then it is not an organization at all. It should be disbanded, or vote more new, fresh members with actual backbone into the organization to restore its original core / values.

-Josh

Which business owners are specifically against MM? I'd like to know who not to frequent.

Here's the thing that really sticking out to me the most.  In the first conception, re-using the old gas station and incorporating the green space on the corner to be, well, green space and outdoor seating, the parking spots were added off site. 

In the newest version, we have added several parking spots in the rear of a very narrow, yet elongated storefront who's depth allow for a bar and some seating.  This is the epitome of shortsightedness.

Let's say that Mellow just doesn't make it and they're closing shop within the next 3 years (much like 'town), and now because of an LLC sticking it's nose in a business to 'help', now they've created a situation that will require not only removing existing parking, but demolition of a new, non-contributing structure before any other business can move in. 

My question is if Mellow doesn't make it, what becomes of the property as designed?  The new business will have to add more parking, but due to the restricted site plan, they'll have to remove existing parking first to even construct a building that would suit their basic needs.  Essentially, by forcing MM to this new, improved site plan, they are essentially preventing any other business from ever moving in without a severe change to the site.

Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on August 24, 2012, 11:27:11 PM
Here's the thing that really sticking out to me the most.  In the first conception, re-using the old gas station and incorporating the green space on the corner to be, well, green space and outdoor seating, the parking spots were added off site. 

In the newest version, we have added several parking spots in the rear of a very narrow, yet elongated storefront who's depth allow for a bar and some seating.  This is the epitome of shortsightedness.

Let's say that Mellow just doesn't make it and they're closing shop within the next 3 years (much like 'town), and now because of an LLC sticking it's nose in a business to 'help', now they've created a situation that will require not only removing existing parking, but demolition of a new, non-contributing structure before any other business can move in. 

My question is if Mellow doesn't make it, what becomes of the property as designed?  The new business will have to add more parking, but due to the restricted site plan, they'll have to remove existing parking first to even construct a building that would suit their basic needs.  Essentially, by forcing MM to this new, improved site plan, they are essentially preventing any other business from ever moving in without a severe change to the site.

If mellow didn't make it couldn't just another restaurant just take over the space as is without changing a thing? And if this is true "The new business will have to add more parking" that's just the cost of doing business.

Quote from: wsansewjs on August 24, 2012, 04:54:25 PM

Quote from: stephendare on August 24, 2012, 04:45:58 PM

Quote from: thelakelander on August 24, 2012, 04:42:33 PM
Why do you keep singling out these two specific individuals? Are you claiming that RAP is down to two people or that no other RAP member has any backbone? Also do you know how we can find out the list of individuals who make up the group WLA, LLC?

Because one is the executive director of the organization and the other one is the power behind the throne, obviously, Lake. 

At the end of the day, its their responsibility

If RAP is truly run by two people, then it is not an organization at all.

-Josh

Not a fan of RAP, really, but that just isn't true at all.

Quote from: stephendare on August 24, 2012, 04:45:58 PM

Quote from: thelakelander on August 24, 2012, 04:42:33 PM
Why do you keep singling out these two specific individuals? Are you claiming that RAP is down to two people or that no other RAP member has any backbone? Also do you know how we can find out the list of individuals who make up the group WLA, LLC?

Because one is the executive director of the organization and the other one is the power behind the throne, obviously, Lake. 

At the end of the day, its their responsibility

So what do you believe or hope will happen by pinning everything on two people? Is it your hope that they'll make We Love Avondale and the restaurant owners, who are afraid of competition, disappear?

Thank the good lord, most of you have never run a restaurant. Stephen has but I do not hear him discussing that MM in Avondale will not make it. To think that MM will not make it is akin to Biden telling everyone that Romney will put you "back in chains", it is absurd! Go Romney!

Quotethe Gas Station carries a great deal of history and nostalgia with many people in the neighborhood.

The Gas Station is a DUMP! DUMP! DUMP! DUMP! I drive by it DAILY, it continues to be a DUMP, that allows parking on top of it, so what if the new design is a parking lot, it is NOW A PARKING LOT. Move on from it!

I was at Mojo #4 last night, was there from 9:30-10:30, and was speaking with Richard one of the assistant managers, we discussed what was happening with MM, and we agreed, had the roles been reversed and M#4 been trying to get in now, versus MM, they would have faced the same issues. MM was just the ones left standing when the music stopped without a chair.

John and his family will do well with this new restaurant, as evidenced by what Mojo #4 has done, the places was well attended, even at 10:30, as was the Brick, MM will succeed and thrive and do well, and I will support them as I do all the Avondale restaurants. With or without the DUMP of an old gas station!

I  agree with you here Mtrain (except for the Go Romney). 

Quote from: JeffreyS on August 25, 2012, 09:44:58 AM
I  agree with you here Mtrain (except for the Go Romney).

Ditto (expect for the Willard Mitt Romney).

Ridiclous....I'm not a fan of some things RAP does, but its far more than 2 people....the Board would have to approve major policy recommendations....and that likely means getting 8+ votes

Seems like much ado about nothing. If you built a new restaurant that abuts the street and has bike racks and patio seating downtown or in Springfield we'd all see this as a win. So what if the community makes a few demands? It's give and take. In the end, hopefully there will be a thriving business in what used to be mainly an empty lot. It's not like the gas station even had interesting architecture like that art deco European Street.

Quote from: MissMinda on August 24, 2012, 11:06:50 PM
Which business owners are specifically against MM? I'd like to know who not to frequent.

The Brick and Blue Fish, mainly.

Quote from: stephendare on August 25, 2012, 01:25:46 PM

Quote from: tufsu1 on August 25, 2012, 11:04:06 AM
Ridiclous....I'm not a fan of some things RAP does, but its far more than 2 people....the Board would have to approve major policy recommendations....and that likely means getting 8+ votes

Well no one expected you to have any other opinion TUFSU1.  Isnt one of your business associates on the board of RAP, incidentally?

no...but if I'm not mistaken, one of yours is

Quote from: ben says on August 25, 2012, 12:38:44 PM

Quote from: MissMinda on August 24, 2012, 11:06:50 PM
Which business owners are specifically against MM? I'd like to know who not to frequent.

The Brick and Blue Fish, mainly.

Another poster stated that Ian at The Fox was beefing about it as well, although it's unclear if he's part of the WLA group specifically.  I can't imagine that Mellow isn't going to "eat his lunch",if you'll pardon the pun.  I mean, who's going to line up outside instead of just walking across the street to Mellow?  (Mimosas with brunch FTW!!)

Quote
From KnowGrowth:

Apparently MJ is some many weeks behind in the news and information department.

The WLA "Opposition Group" gang is vast.

Avondale citizens are not going to stare transfixed in to the headlights of "inevitable" negative impacts,"growth".

(http://i.imgur.com/n3SRM.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/uT8Bf.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/Zr4cM.jpg)

(http://i.imgur.com/ByD6d.jpg)

^funny.

This below is from the "we love avondale" website. They posted this Saturday, August 25:


Aug 25 â€" This past week, both the Land Use Zoning committee (LUZ) and the Jacksonville Historic Preservation Commission (JHPC) deferred their decisions regarding the Mellow Mushroom applications.

The minutes for each meeting will be available upon request to the City for anyone wishing to read the full discussion.

Thanks to the many We Love Avondale neighbors and friends who attended both meetings, and also to our general counsel, George Gabel and Jennifer Mansfield of Holland and Knight, and to Jonathan  Oliff and Carmen Godwin from RAP â€" all of whom provided insight and comments about the various areas of concern.

It is our take that both committees understood both the magnitude of this project and it’s potential impact, with a true desire to “get it right” and we appreciate their wish to have due process.

We understand that Mellow Mushroom is now again revising their plans in response to these discussions, and we are hopeful their architect and planners will take seriously the concerns voiced.

The next steps in the process are as follows:

8/30 â€" Planning Commission â€" will defer MM on the merits and decide whether to set the next hearing for  the 9/27 meeting at 5 p.m. Stay tuned for the date and time for which it gets set.

9/3 â€" LUZ meeting to again consider withdrawal of the PUD.

9/19 JHPC at 5:00 p.m. special design review meeting on MM (to be confirmed)

9/26 JHPC at 5:00 p.m. (if not scheduled for 9/19)

9/27 Planning Commission (to consider administrative deviation for parking and zoning exception for outside sales and service of alcohol).

Mellow Mushroom is being led down the primrose path. It's obvious that a vocal minority just doesn't want the restaurant there, period, and that the only way they'll ever agree on a set of conditions is if they include enough arbitrary restrictions to guarantee that the restaurant won't succeed. Though I'm sure the two gentlemen behind WeLoveAvondale, LLC must think they're very clever, this is not particularly sophisticated. I'm actually beginning to think that if the ownership of Mellow is this abysmally stupid, as appears the case since they keep agreeing to each new set of moving targets, then they deserve what they've obviously got coming to them.

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on August 26, 2012, 10:21:15 AM
Mellow Mushroom is being led down the primrose path. It's obvious that a vocal minority just doesn't want the restaurant there, period, and that the only way they'll ever agree on a set of conditions is if they include enough arbitrary restrictions to guarantee that the restaurant won't succeed. Though I'm sure the two gentlemen behind WeLoveAvondale, LLC must think they're very clever, this is not particularly sophisticated. I'm actually beginning to think that if the ownership of Mellow is this abysmally stupid, as appears the case since they keep agreeing to each new set of moving targets, then they deserve what they've obviously got coming to them.

+1000

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on August 26, 2012, 10:21:15 AM
Mellow Mushroom is being led down the primrose path. It's obvious that a vocal minority just doesn't want the restaurant there, period, and that the only way they'll ever agree on a set of conditions is if they include enough arbitrary restrictions to guarantee that the restaurant won't succeed. Though I'm sure the two gentlemen behind WeLoveAvondale, LLC must think they're very clever, this is not particularly sophisticated. I'm actually beginning to think that if the ownership of Mellow is this abysmally stupid, as appears the case since they keep agreeing to each new set of moving targets, then they deserve what they've obviously got coming to them.

I know Valentino.  He's a lot of things; reasonable, cooperative, well-intentioned, innovative and passionate among them. "Abyssmally stupid" is not a term I would ever use to describe him, and those who make that assumption do so at their own peril. 

Quote from: Pinky on August 26, 2012, 10:40:21 AM

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on August 26, 2012, 10:21:15 AM
Mellow Mushroom is being led down the primrose path. It's obvious that a vocal minority just doesn't want the restaurant there, period, and that the only way they'll ever agree on a set of conditions is if they include enough arbitrary restrictions to guarantee that the restaurant won't succeed. Though I'm sure the two gentlemen behind WeLoveAvondale, LLC must think they're very clever, this is not particularly sophisticated. I'm actually beginning to think that if the ownership of Mellow is this abysmally stupid, as appears the case since they keep agreeing to each new set of moving targets, then they deserve what they've obviously got coming to them.

I know Valentino.  He's a lot of things; reasonable, cooperative, well-intentioned, innovative and passionate among them. "Abyssmally stupid" is not a term I would ever use to describe him, and those who make that assumption do so at their own peril. 

I call it like I see it.

Being reasonable and cooperative is a disaster when the other side isn't interested in meaningful dialogue or an honest compromise. Your buddy may be good at running a restaurant, but he appears to fundamentally misunderstand what he's dealing with here.

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on August 26, 2012, 01:01:01 PM

Quote from: Pinky on August 26, 2012, 10:40:21 AM

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on August 26, 2012, 10:21:15 AM
Mellow Mushroom is being led down the primrose path. It's obvious that a vocal minority just doesn't want the restaurant there, period, and that the only way they'll ever agree on a set of conditions is if they include enough arbitrary restrictions to guarantee that the restaurant won't succeed. Though I'm sure the two gentlemen behind WeLoveAvondale, LLC must think they're very clever, this is not particularly sophisticated. I'm actually beginning to think that if the ownership of Mellow is this abysmally stupid, as appears the case since they keep agreeing to each new set of moving targets, then they deserve what they've obviously got coming to them.

I know Valentino.  He's a lot of things; reasonable, cooperative, well-intentioned, innovative and passionate among them. "Abyssmally stupid" is not a term I would ever use to describe him, and those who make that assumption do so at their own peril. 

I call it like I see it.

Being reasonable and cooperative is a disaster when the other side isn't interested in meaningful dialogue or an honest compromise. Your buddy may be good at running a restaurant, but he appears to fundamentally misunderstand what he's dealing with here.

Or it could be he just wants in the market because he knows it is a good location.  Maybe he really doesn't give a flying F what the place looks like as long as it is profitable.  At some point you just say "Hey I tried to make it unique but if this is what it takes to be there, so be it.  Why do I care if they want a box and paved parking lot?"

Quote from: JHAT76 on August 26, 2012, 01:39:39 PM

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on August 26, 2012, 01:01:01 PM

Quote from: Pinky on August 26, 2012, 10:40:21 AM

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on August 26, 2012, 10:21:15 AM
Mellow Mushroom is being led down the primrose path. It's obvious that a vocal minority just doesn't want the restaurant there, period, and that the only way they'll ever agree on a set of conditions is if they include enough arbitrary restrictions to guarantee that the restaurant won't succeed. Though I'm sure the two gentlemen behind WeLoveAvondale, LLC must think they're very clever, this is not particularly sophisticated. I'm actually beginning to think that if the ownership of Mellow is this abysmally stupid, as appears the case since they keep agreeing to each new set of moving targets, then they deserve what they've obviously got coming to them.

I know Valentino.  He's a lot of things; reasonable, cooperative, well-intentioned, innovative and passionate among them. "Abyssmally stupid" is not a term I would ever use to describe him, and those who make that assumption do so at their own peril. 

I call it like I see it.

Being reasonable and cooperative is a disaster when the other side isn't interested in meaningful dialogue or an honest compromise. Your buddy may be good at running a restaurant, but he appears to fundamentally misunderstand what he's dealing with here.

Or it could be he just wants in the market because he knows it is a good location.  Maybe he really doesn't give a flying F what the place looks like as long as it is profitable.  At some point you just say "Hey I tried to make it unique but if this is what it takes to be there, so be it.  Why do I care if they want a box and paved parking lot?"

He very well may not get either, if it keeps going the way it is...

QuoteMellow Mushroom is being led down the primrose path. It's obvious that a vocal minority just doesn't want the restaurant there, period, and that the only way they'll ever agree on a set of conditions is if they include enough arbitrary restrictions to guarantee that the restaurant won't succeed. Though I'm sure the two gentlemen behind WeLoveAvondale, LLC must think they're very clever, this is not particularly sophisticated. I'm actually beginning to think that if the ownership of Mellow is this abysmally stupid, as appears the case since they keep agreeing to each new set of moving targets, then they deserve what they've obviously got coming to them.

Chris - Wow....., I mean, really, are you on the inner circle with Keymer or Valentino or the legal council representing them? MM has a lot of supporters, but they are obviously more scattered than the WLA group, which has organization and a goal. You are an attorney, right? You know the men behind WLA, since you are anonymous, what is your feeling and take on them as people, and attorneys?

Sure MM should have put up a tent over the site, and built what they wanted and done so behind a secret secured site, but no one wants to have something shoved down their throat. WLA is reacting with fear of the unknown and time cures all. When the Brick opened up, Sterlings/Bluefish was worried about their business, all the merchants are always worried about business, so that is just hot air.  The merchants can do some things as well to appeal to both sides, with MM donating a large amount as the first one into the idea. There are all kinds of ideas being floated to get this accepted.

WLA cannot continue with this forever. Nothing is forever.

I hardly need to be on anyone's inner circle to see what's going on Mtrain.

It's that obvious.

Like I said, I call 'em like I see 'em.

QuoteIt's that obvious.

Sure it is, from the outside looking in.

It's obvious from any vantage point.

For christsakes, WLA just rejected their own site redesign...

As a Duval county taxpayer and living in the same county as these organizations reside, I OBJECT to RAP's and WLA's notions to affect this outcome with their puny little minority voice and cost more of our tax money for this bloody ruse.

I would say, SHOVE IT UP their a$$, and LET the Mellow Mushroom do what is "right" in HELPING the community.

Just my two cents. -threw it away-

-Josh

Quote from: mtraininjax on August 27, 2012, 08:46:09 AM

QuoteIt's that obvious.

Sure it is, from the outside looking in.

So if they withdraw the PUD they aren't going to get slammed with the parking requirements of Jim Love's new legislation?  That's sure what it looks like from the outside.  Also, to address Pinky's point that Valentino doesn't give a 'flying f': why would he go to the trouble of making the first design if he didn't care about the product he was bringing to the neighborhood?

Mtrain-  Your tone has really changed in the last few days.  Are you now siding with team WLA in order to get a surface lot thrown down on the most important piece of land in Avondale's commercial portfolio? 

Quote from: Captain Zissou on August 27, 2012, 11:53:45 AM
Mtrain-  Your tone has really changed in the last few days.

Phew. So I'm not the only one who noticed this...

Honestly Mtrain, wtf are you smoking?! Whatever it is, I want some.

All I can say is it must be nice to have so much economic activity in your neighborhood that you can make these kinds of demands on new businesses moving in.  In my 'hood (northbank CBD) I'll accept ANY kind of new business moving in.  Please.  Bring it on.

Just stick with the original design and the original approval and start building.

Quote from: JeffreyS on August 27, 2012, 12:46:31 PM
Just stick with the original design and the original approval and start building.

^ Yes!!!! Please!!!!

Quote from: Captain Zissou on August 27, 2012, 11:53:45 AM

Quote from: mtraininjax on August 27, 2012, 08:46:09 AM

QuoteIt's that obvious.

Sure it is, from the outside looking in.

So if they withdraw the PUD they aren't going to get slammed with the parking requirements of Jim Love's new legislation?  That's sure what it looks like from the outside.  Also, to address Pinky's point that Valentino doesn't give a 'flying f': why would he go to the trouble of making the first design if he didn't care about the product he was bringing to the neighborhood?


Mtrain-  Your tone has really changed in the last few days.  Are you now siding with team WLA in order to get a surface lot thrown down on the most important piece of land in Avondale's commercial portfolio?

Not me boss.  I've never said Valentino didn't give a "flying F".  I said he was anything but "abysmally stupid" earlier in the thread, but that's all I've posted recently.  I think you have me confused with someone else.

Quote from: JHAT76 on August 26, 2012, 01:39:39 PM

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on August 26, 2012, 01:01:01 PM

Quote from: Pinky on August 26, 2012, 10:40:21 AM

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on August 26, 2012, 10:21:15 AM
Mellow Mushroom is being led down the primrose path. It's obvious that a vocal minority just doesn't want the restaurant there, period, and that the only way they'll ever agree on a set of conditions is if they include enough arbitrary restrictions to guarantee that the restaurant won't succeed. Though I'm sure the two gentlemen behind WeLoveAvondale, LLC must think they're very clever, this is not particularly sophisticated. I'm actually beginning to think that if the ownership of Mellow is this abysmally stupid, as appears the case since they keep agreeing to each new set of moving targets, then they deserve what they've obviously got coming to them.

I know Valentino.  He's a lot of things; reasonable, cooperative, well-intentioned, innovative and passionate among them. "Abyssmally stupid" is not a term I would ever use to describe him, and those who make that assumption do so at their own peril. 

I call it like I see it.

Being reasonable and cooperative is a disaster when the other side isn't interested in meaningful dialogue or an honest compromise. Your buddy may be good at running a restaurant, but he appears to fundamentally misunderstand what he's dealing with here.

Or it could be he just wants in the market because he knows it is a good location.  Maybe he really doesn't give a flying F what the place looks like as long as it is profitable.  At some point you just say "Hey I tried to make it unique but if this is what it takes to be there, so be it.  Why do I care if they want a box and paved parking lot?"

T'was JHAT76. 

But to speak to that point; I believe he does in fact give a Flying F about not reusing the old service station.  It was a big part of the original vision for that location, and an important element in the decorative theme he was considering.  (All Mellow Mushroom restaurants are unique and individual in their decor.) The antique Service Station/"automobilia" theme would have been carried throughout the location.  Don't get me wrong; there will still be a bunch of very cool decorative elements in the new design, but without the old gas station to build around it'll be somewhat diminished.

It reminds me of the 15 years I spent in the Corporate World, before striking out on my own to build Cool Shit.  15 years of shoveling against tides taught me an important lesson:

Inspiration Dies In Committee. 

Sad but true, and this is a perfect example of it.

I hope MM can do what they set out to do to start with and that this does not finally make them give up and build elsewhere.

Quote from: JeffreyS on August 27, 2012, 12:46:31 PM
Just stick with the original design and the original approval and start building.

Amen.  Personally I'd like to see him slap WLA, RAP and Jim Love with Tortious Interference of Business lawsuits too.  This is obscene, given that as I understand it, his original plan was absolutely and unequivocally within the law.  But that's not Valentino's style; he's a much more cooperative guy.  Me; I'd start throwing paper around and see who wants to go to the mat. 

Couple of questions I would like answered.

1. Who behind and supporting “We Love Avondale,LLC” ? (How involved are area restaurants that are afraid of competition???)
2. What is RAP not doing that WLA felt it important enough to form?
3. WLA seems to be creating road blocks and using stall tactics.  What are they stalling for?
4. Why did our City Councilman feel it okay to try to force legislation through the Planning dept.?  Who is pulling the strings?

Quote from: Pinky on August 27, 2012, 04:05:22 PM

Quote from: JHAT76 on August 26, 2012, 01:39:39 PM

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on August 26, 2012, 01:01:01 PM

Quote from: Pinky on August 26, 2012, 10:40:21 AM

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on August 26, 2012, 10:21:15 AM
Mellow Mushroom is being led down the primrose path. It's obvious that a vocal minority just doesn't want the restaurant there, period, and that the only way they'll ever agree on a set of conditions is if they include enough arbitrary restrictions to guarantee that the restaurant won't succeed. Though I'm sure the two gentlemen behind WeLoveAvondale, LLC must think they're very clever, this is not particularly sophisticated. I'm actually beginning to think that if the ownership of Mellow is this abysmally stupid, as appears the case since they keep agreeing to each new set of moving targets, then they deserve what they've obviously got coming to them.

I know Valentino.  He's a lot of things; reasonable, cooperative, well-intentioned, innovative and passionate among them. "Abyssmally stupid" is not a term I would ever use to describe him, and those who make that assumption do so at their own peril. 

I call it like I see it.

Being reasonable and cooperative is a disaster when the other side isn't interested in meaningful dialogue or an honest compromise. Your buddy may be good at running a restaurant, but he appears to fundamentally misunderstand what he's dealing with here.

Or it could be he just wants in the market because he knows it is a good location.  Maybe he really doesn't give a flying F what the place looks like as long as it is profitable.  At some point you just say "Hey I tried to make it unique but if this is what it takes to be there, so be it.  Why do I care if they want a box and paved parking lot?"

T'was JHAT76. 

But to speak to that point; I believe he does in fact give a Flying F about not reusing the old service station.  It was a big part of the original vision for that location, and an important element in the decorative theme he was considering.  (All Mellow Mushroom restaurants are unique and individual in their decor.) The antique Service Station/"automobilia" theme would have been carried throughout the location.  Don't get me wrong; there will still be a bunch of very cool decorative elements in the new design, but without the old gas station to build around it'll be somewhat diminished.

It reminds me of the 15 years I spent in the Corporate World, before striking out on my own to build Cool Shit.  15 years of shoveling against tides taught me an important lesson:

Inspiration Dies In Committee. 

Sad but true, and this is a perfect example of it.

It was definitely me.  What I was trying to say, which I didn't do a good job of, was that at this point I could understand going along with WLA and RAP and saying "Fine, here is your box restaurant.  Just let me open."  I do believe MM came with a great idea.  One that was unique and would have added some excitement and freshness to the Shoppes.  I commend MM for coming with that idea.  When I hear my 13 yr old say I don't want to live in Jax when I grow up, these are the situations that make me think no wonder she doesn't.  Young people want to see a vibrant, changing city.  It's what keeps people coming back after college, what attracts corporations, and grows a city.

Quote from: Pinky on August 27, 2012, 04:05:22 PM

Quote from: JHAT76 on August 26, 2012, 01:39:39 PM

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on August 26, 2012, 01:01:01 PM

Quote from: Pinky on August 26, 2012, 10:40:21 AM

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on August 26, 2012, 10:21:15 AM
Mellow Mushroom is being led down the primrose path. It's obvious that a vocal minority just doesn't want the restaurant there, period, and that the only way they'll ever agree on a set of conditions is if they include enough arbitrary restrictions to guarantee that the restaurant won't succeed. Though I'm sure the two gentlemen behind WeLoveAvondale, LLC must think they're very clever, this is not particularly sophisticated. I'm actually beginning to think that if the ownership of Mellow is this abysmally stupid, as appears the case since they keep agreeing to each new set of moving targets, then they deserve what they've obviously got coming to them.

I know Valentino.  He's a lot of things; reasonable, cooperative, well-intentioned, innovative and passionate among them. "Abyssmally stupid" is not a term I would ever use to describe him, and those who make that assumption do so at their own peril. 

I call it like I see it.

Being reasonable and cooperative is a disaster when the other side isn't interested in meaningful dialogue or an honest compromise. Your buddy may be good at running a restaurant, but he appears to fundamentally misunderstand what he's dealing with here.

Or it could be he just wants in the market because he knows it is a good location.  Maybe he really doesn't give a flying F what the place looks like as long as it is profitable.  At some point you just say "Hey I tried to make it unique but if this is what it takes to be there, so be it.  Why do I care if they want a box and paved parking lot?"

T'was JHAT76. 

But to speak to that point; I believe he does in fact give a Flying F about not reusing the old service station.  It was a big part of the original vision for that location, and an important element in the decorative theme he was considering.  (All Mellow Mushroom restaurants are unique and individual in their decor.) The antique Service Station/"automobilia" theme would have been carried throughout the location.  Don't get me wrong; there will still be a bunch of very cool decorative elements in the new design, but without the old gas station to build around it'll be somewhat diminished.

It reminds me of the 15 years I spent in the Corporate World, before striking out on my own to build Cool Shit.  15 years of shoveling against tides taught me an important lesson:

Inspiration Dies In Committee. 

Sad but true, and this is a perfect example of it.

Exactly, my friend! If MM can stick to the original design, it would have a "timeless" charm and it would be much better suited to the historical aspect of Avondale as a whole. It would support the core value of RAP and WLA which they are so blindly against it.

These "silly" organizations are nitpicking at the CURRENT situation, and treat it like "OMG-END OF AVONDALE WE ARE GONNA DIE IN THIS TOWN BECAUSE BIG PIZZA PLACE IS COMING TO DOOM US ALL" Again, these organizations are NOT representing in the best of Avondale and its citizens.

-Josh

Quote from: Timkin on August 27, 2012, 04:18:12 PM
I hope MM can do what they set out to do to start with and that this does not finally make them give up and build elsewhere.

Are these local franchise owners or are all MM locations corporate-owned? It seems like a corporation is only so willing to jump thru hoops before they find an easier site to move into. There are many large strip malls on Beach Boulevard that I'm sure would welcome a Mellow Mushroom.

Quote from: Bativac on September 03, 2012, 10:13:15 AM

Quote from: Timkin on August 27, 2012, 04:18:12 PM
I hope MM can do what they set out to do to start with and that this does not finally make them give up and build elsewhere.

Are these local franchise owners or are all MM locations corporate-owned? It seems like a corporation is only so willing to jump thru hoops before they find an easier site to move into. There are many large strip malls on Beach Boulevard that I'm sure would welcome a Mellow Mushroom.

Avondale is a hot place for lunch and dinner I hope and pray that MM doesn't give up to the few cry babies that don't want them in Avondale aka the Westside.

The truth is that bigger corporations have attorneys ready to fight the good fight. That is why if you put a bunch of barriers up to development in viable areas you end up with only McDonalds and such moving in gentrifying the neighborhood.

Quote from: TPC on August 23, 2012, 04:19:09 PM
I will show my support for Mellow by riding my bike up there and enjoying some pizza and beer once they open.

That's a good plan, I'll do the same.

I've been to several MMs both here and in the Atlanta area.  They are always an asset to the community.

^ Thank you.. I totally agree.

Most of the franchises have local ownership in Jacksonville. Every Chick-Fil-A is a partnership between corporate (Atlanta) and someone here locally who has invested $5k and the profits are split down the middle. All the McDonald's I have seen, and Wendy's are locally owned by a franchisee who then has the territory and right to open new stores based on corporate guidelines. The Valentino family owns the rights for MM in Jacksonville, and MM has a very detailed franchise website for those who want to review their guidelines and store size information. Plus John purchased the gas station and dirt under it, so no matter what happens, he is now paying taxes on a parking lot and an empty gas station. That will change at some point.

Having been at Bluefish on Saturday and spent a lot of time with Frank, who is running a great operation with the help of Richard there at Bluefish. The rub on the street is that John wanted, originally, to put in a 300+ seat facility. Many of the other restaurants were, essentially, jealous of such an increase, when they (biscottis and brick) were limited in the amount of space they could expand.

Something I learned from Frank as well is that his group does not look to serve the 20-somethings who want to come in and do a row of shots. The bartenders at Bluefish send this crowd down to Mojo's. There is a fear, and I can understand why, that serving late night happy hour cocktails and beers will lead to more problems on St. Johns, so Frank is right to not add to it. You can have that along the King Street district, which leads to fun issues with neighbors and residents when cars are plowed into by overserved individuals.

I have a lot of new admiration for Frank, he stands up for what he believes, and I like the leadership he shows in Avondale. Love him or hate him, he has character and in this whole mess, there are a number of people on both sides who could show us all more character.

Quote from: mtraininjax on September 04, 2012, 02:04:15 PM
Something I learned from Frank as well is that his group does not look to serve the 20-somethings who want to come in and do a row of shots. The bartenders at Bluefish send this crowd down to Mojo's.

Right.  Because the 40+ entitled crowd that swills scotch and wine and feels the need to make table visits all night is sooooooo much better.   At least the other crowd sticks to the bar and I don't have to worry about them sticking their ass in my dinner while trying to maintain a sense of balance. 

BTW, do they (Bluefish) still have bottomless mimosas at brunch?   ;)

QuoteSomething I learned from Frank as well is that his group does not look to serve the 20-somethings who want to come in and do a row of shots. The bartenders at Bluefish send this crowd down to Mojo's. There is a fear, and I can understand why, that serving late night happy hour cocktails and beers will lead to more problems on St. Johns, so Frank is right to not add to it.

BS

So hip hop night at Elevated Avondale(open until 2AM on weekends) caters to the 'wine and cheese crowd'?

What a load of crap.

Did he also tell you how 'disheartened' he is to have chased off 29 South from opening in Avondale as well?

Quote from: fieldafm on September 04, 2012, 02:14:52 PM

QuoteSomething I learned from Frank as well is that his group does not look to serve the 20-somethings who want to come in and do a row of shots. The bartenders at Bluefish send this crowd down to Mojo's. There is a fear, and I can understand why, that serving late night happy hour cocktails and beers will lead to more problems on St. Johns, so Frank is right to not add to it.

BS
So hip hop night at Elevated Avondale(open until 2AM on weekends) caters to the 'wine and cheese crowd'?
What a load of crap.
Did he also tell you how 'disheartened' he is to have chased off 29 South from opening in Avondale as well?

The strongest drinks on the strip are poured at Elevated Avondale.  If you order a whiskey ginger at Mojos, Brick, and EA, you will end up with twice to three times as much whiskey at Elevated.  I think Brick is a little light on their pour, but the amount that Elevated pours is irresponsible.  As a young man on a budget, I appreciate the surplus, but Frank has no place in taking a holier that thou stance.  When Frank opens his parking lot to the public and tries to help provide bike parking for the neighborhood, I'll give him another chance.  I like his restaurant, but the food won't taste the same knowing what I do about the lies he is spreading.

Ummm, what's an elevated avondale?

Quote from: 02roadking on September 04, 2012, 04:58:21 PM
Ummm, what's an elevated avondale?

The second floor bar at Blue Fish.

Quote from: mtraininjax on September 04, 2012, 02:04:15 PM
Something I learned from Frank as well is that his group does not look to serve the 20-somethings who want to come in and do a row of shots. The bartenders at Bluefish send this crowd down to Mojo's. There is a fear, and I can understand why, that serving late night happy hour cocktails and beers will lead to more problems on St. Johns, so Frank is right to not add to it. You can have that along the King Street district, which leads to fun issues with neighbors and residents when cars are plowed into by overserved individuals.

I have a lot of new admiration for Frank, he stands up for what he believes, and I like the leadership he shows in Avondale. Love him or hate him, he has character and in this whole mess, there are a number of people on both sides who could show us all more character.

HAHHAHAH. Are you serious?!?!? The intellectual dissonance here is truly startling. Either: (a) you're a sucker (b) Frank is a great story teller or (c) combination of A and B.

Have you ever been to Elevated Avondale? Funny, because I have, a lot, and I've seen exactly what you're describing "never happens there"...20 somethings looking to get shnockered, knocking down rows of shots. That place is known to pour the heaviest drinks in the area. Go to UNF or FCSL or Lee or Bolles and ask that age group where the strongest drink in town is, they'll say "above Bluefish." I had a friend get date raped there....nuff said?

That place is everything "Frank" says he's against....sounds more like he's worried about competing business.

Mtrain, WTF happened to you? Are you getting kickbacks from We Love Avondale??? Not just me, but others on this forum, have seen your spiral into absurdity re: MM and Avondale.

Having been at Bluefish on Saturday and spent a lot of time with Frank, who is running a great operation with the help of Richard there at Bluefish. The rub on the street is that John wanted, originally, to put in a 300+ seat facility. Many of the other restaurants were, essentially, jealous of such an increase, when they (biscottis and brick) were limited in the amount of space they could expand....

I have a lot of new admiration for Frank, he stands up for what he believes, and I like the leadership he shows in Avondale. Love him or hate him, he has character and in this whole mess, there are a number of people on both sides who could show us all more character.

300+ is an absurd estimate. it is completely unfounded and down right false. Next you will tell me that MM is going to be a 10,000 sq ft night club that doesn't even sell pizza or that they are going to have a nickel beer night on the patio??? All these statements are Preposterous!!!!

I must add (because I reread your post, Mtrain, and saw, again, how stupid it was)...

Do you HONESTLY believe that "The bartenders at Bluefish send this crowd down to Mojo's."....really?!?!



Person looking for a beverage: "Hi, can I have three shots for me and my two friends"

Bartender: "No, you look 20-something and we're scared of what you'll do to St. Johns....go to Mojo's"

Person looking for a beverage: "But we wanted to come here..."

Bartender: "Take it up with Frank"



I've started coming to the MM/Avondale threads not for information, but instead so I can see Mtrain act the mouthpiece for his friends BS "we love Avondale" propaganda.

Quote from: martybjaguars on September 04, 2012, 05:27:55 PM
300+ is an absurd estimate. it is completely unfounded and down right false. Next you will tell me that MM is going to be a 10,000 sq ft night club that doesn't even sell pizza or that they are going to have a nickel beer night on the patio??? All these statements are Preposterous!!!!

Preposterous as those statements are, sadly, they've become "the truth" to most....

I've personally heard an Avondale shop owner (who shall remain nameless) tell me "a nightclub is moving in...it's not Mellow Mushroom, they have you all fooled"

Does our neighborhood need another pizza place?  I love pizza as much as the next guy, but I'd rather see some variety in the area.

Quote from: birdilicious on September 04, 2012, 06:57:31 PM
Does our neighborhood need another pizza place?  I love pizza as much as the next guy, but I'd rather see some variety in the area.

I checked this afternoon, just to be sure, but there isn't a pizza restaurant in avondale. 

There's Hungry Howies...

Pizza Hut in Fairfax...

Both Pele's and Carmines are on King St.

Al's & Pizza Italian (Kovas' ?) are in 5 points...

Moon River & 5Star are in Murray Hill....

And now that I've named 8 different pizza places - when you think about it, they all offer their very own atmosphere and different pies as well.  I'm thinking that MM very much believes that 'another-pizza-place' will do just fine.

Variety is fine, too.  Hopefully a Dick's Wings or BW3s  or Hooters (Preferably Hooters as they have the most $$$$ to fight that epic battle)  will open up in the Monte's space - there isn't a decent wing place anywhere nearby.   ;)

Quote from: birdilicious on September 04, 2012, 06:57:31 PM
Does our neighborhood need another pizza place?  I love pizza as much as the next guy, but I'd rather see some variety in the area.

This is something the market decides.  Not an average joe blow who isn't fronting the money for the overdue redevelopment of the site.  Like the Springfield car wash issue a few years back, if the market doesn't want a Mellow Mushroom, it will close and then you'll at least end up with a useable building suitable for easy reuse.  If the market supports it, then you'll end up with an enhanced anchor piece in the heart of the commercial district.

Quote from: thelakelander on September 04, 2012, 10:37:40 PM

Quote from: birdilicious on September 04, 2012, 06:57:31 PM
Does our neighborhood need another pizza place?  I love pizza as much as the next guy, but I'd rather see some variety in the area.

This is something the market decides.  Not an average joe blow who isn't fronting the money for the overdue redevelopment of the site.  Like the Springfield car wash issue a few years back, if the market doesn't want a Mellow Mushroom, it will close and then you'll at least end up with a useable building suitable for easy reuse.  If the market supports it, then you'll end up with an enhanced anchor piece in the heart of the commercial district.

Come on Lake.
it's not about 'Market',and you should know it.
Perhaps we should just forget references to 'Planner" back ground. No wonder FTU embraced you.

Today MM PUD was deferred.

I'll have another Avondale PUD Ail Ale !!!

What is it about then?  Do you think Mellow wants to open a location that will lose money?  They believe there is a market in Riverside for their product and have decided to spend their money to construct a facility to cater to that market.

Quote from: thelakelander on September 05, 2012, 09:44:10 PM
What is it about then?  Do you think Mellow wants to open a location that will lose      *****money? ******      They believe there is a market          in Riverside     for their product and have decided to spend           *****their money ******      to construct a facility to cater to that market.

( ****** ******* knowgrowth highlight,or lowlight)

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$  ??!!??

Of course the site is not "Riverside",perhaps this observation could spur useless anti RAP comments.

There is money to be made in the negative impact of community. "Well Connected" legal counsel a help.
(First time I met Steve D. was  Regional Planning Council lobby,litle 'ol Freedom Commerce thang,we were,after all,Avondale neighbors and would certainly become buddy's....a few minutes later Attorney Tom Reese walked in and Steve's jaw actually dropped....I ended up winning the COJ Mayor's Mimi & Lee Adams Individual Conservation award....)

None of this $$$$$market talk relates to the Land Use & Zone legal hurdles and all things related.

Quote from: Know Growth on September 05, 2012, 10:00:42 PM
( ****** ******* knowgrowth highlight,or lowlight)

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$  ??!!??

Of course the site is not "Riverside",perhaps this observation could spur useless anti RAP comments.

There is money to be made in the negative impact of community.

None of this $$$$$market talk relates to the Land Use & Zone legal hurdles and all things related.

Bullshit, All of this  $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ talk is about owning a very profitable piece of property that the local 'community' doesn't want to see used as anything other than a public parking lot.  The 'business community' (I'm talking to you Frank, Barb and Karen) is not only losing a parking lot, but gaining serious competition to their business.  Mike.  Jack.  If you would like to come clean, I'd also be happy to discuss in person.  nvite Frank, Barb, Karen or anyone else who has an extreme bad taste in thier mouth about another restaurant opening. 

Personally, I can't wait for Hooters to open up in the current Monte's space.

I'm sorry, Know Growth.  I somewhat confused by your riddle and have lost track of the bread crumbs.  Are you saying Mellow Mushroom's owner wants to destroy the neighborhood and that his decision to want to open in the Riverside/Avondale Historic District is not market based?

For those who don't want MM, 7-11, etc. at that location, why not just pony up the cash and purchase the property?  That option will give you total control of what happens with its future.

Quote from: thelakelander on September 05, 2012, 10:22:02 PM
For those who don't want MM, 7-11, etc. at that location, why not just pony up the cash and purchase the property?  That option will give you total control of what happens with its future.

Would only pay what it was actually worth,and not assume Attorney,Planner & Consultant bump.

Quote from: Know Growth on September 05, 2012, 10:00:42 PM

Quote from: thelakelander on September 05, 2012, 09:44:10 PM
What is it about then?  Do you think Mellow wants to open a location that will lose      *****money? ******      They believe there is a market          in Riverside     for their product and have decided to spend           *****their money ******      to construct a facility to cater to that market.

( ****** ******* knowgrowth highlight,or lowlight)

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$  ??!!??

Of course the site is not "Riverside",perhaps this observation could spur useless anti RAP comments.

There is money to be made in the negative impact of community. "Well Connected" legal counsel a help.
(First time I met Steve D. was  Regional Planning Council lobby,litle 'ol Freedom Commerce thang,we were,after all,Avondale neighbors and would certainly become buddy's....a few minutes later Attorney Tom Reese walked in and Steve's jaw actually dropped....I ended up winning the COJ Mayor's Mimi & Lee Adams Individual Conservation award....)

None of this $$$$$market talk relates to the Land Use & Zone legal hurdles and all things related.

I don't mind people voicing their opinion about what sort of developments would be good for the area. I just don't understand how they conclude MM would be bad for the area.

Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on September 05, 2012, 10:17:51 PM

Quote from: Know Growth on September 05, 2012, 10:00:42 PM
( ****** ******* knowgrowth highlight,or lowlight)

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$  ??!!??

Of course the site is not "Riverside",perhaps this observation could spur useless anti RAP comments.

There is money to be made in the negative impact of community.

None of this $$$$$market talk relates to the Land Use & Zone legal hurdles and all things related.

Bullshit, All of this  $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ talk is about owning a very profitable piece of property that the local 'community' doesn't want to see used as anything other than a public parking lot.  The 'business community' (I'm talking to you Frank, Barb and Karen) is not only losing a parking lot, but gaining serious competition to their business.  Mike.  Jack.  If you would like to come clean, I'd also be happy to discuss in person.  nvite Frank, Barb, Karen or anyone else who has an extreme bad taste in thier mouth about another restaurant opening. 

Personally, I can't wait for Hooters to open up in the current Monte's space.

You are a good Westside Redneck-perfect!

Quote from: Know Growth on September 05, 2012, 10:29:34 PM
You are a good Westside Redneck-perfect!

As you are a perfect NIMBY but-I-live-in-a-different-zipcode sycophant.

Super perfect.

Quote from: Know Growth on September 05, 2012, 10:25:51 PM

Quote from: thelakelander on September 05, 2012, 10:22:02 PM
For those who don't want MM, 7-11, etc. at that location, why not just pony up the cash and purchase the property?  That option will give you total control of what happens with its future.

Would only pay what it was actually worth,and not assume Attorney,Planner & Consultant bump.

What does a planner, consultant, etc. have to do with a real estate purchase?  Nevertheless, since you didn't pay and someone else did, you lose a good chunk of your ability to dictate what should be developed on the site.

Quote from: Captain Zissou on September 04, 2012, 02:43:59 PM

Quote from: fieldafm on September 04, 2012, 02:14:52 PM

QuoteSomething I learned from Frank as well is that his group does not look to serve the 20-somethings who want to come in and do a row of shots. The bartenders at Bluefish send this crowd down to Mojo's. There is a fear, and I can understand why, that serving late night happy hour cocktails and beers will lead to more problems on St. Johns, so Frank is right to not add to it.

BS
So hip hop night at Elevated Avondale(open until 2AM on weekends) caters to the 'wine and cheese crowd'?
What a load of crap.
Did he also tell you how 'disheartened' he is to have chased off 29 South from opening in Avondale as well?

The strongest drinks on the strip are poured at Elevated Avondale.  If you order a whiskey ginger at Mojos, Brick, and EA, you will end up with twice to three times as much whiskey at Elevated.  I think Brick is a little light on their pour, but the amount that Elevated pours is irresponsible.  As a young man on a budget, I appreciate the surplus, but Frank has no place in taking a holier that thou stance.  When Frank opens his parking lot to the public and tries to help provide bike parking for the neighborhood, I'll give him another chance.  I like his restaurant, but the food won't taste the same knowing what I do about the lies he is spreading.

Thanks for the info Capt'n... I always liked the food and Happy Hour at Blue Fish ($.50 oysters!)... but have never tried Elevated Avondale.  Based on your "pour" info I will have to give Elevated a try...

What kills me and makes me laugh ;D is before MM bought this land. I have been told that for "Avondale Merchant Association, Inc." to have bought the land and have green space and parking made out of it. Would have cost too much in "TAXES" a dirty word for most rich business owner's? But your problem would have been solved. ::)

QuoteHe doesn't live in avondale, but thinks that people who don't live there should have no opinion.

Because those of us who live in Avondale really give a damn what the planners and managers on MJ really think about our neighborhood.  8)

Quote from: thelakelander on September 05, 2012, 11:03:19 PM
Nevertheless, since you didn't pay and someone else did, you lose a good chunk of your ability to dictate what should be developed on the site.

Novel concept. 

Quote from: mtraininjax on September 04, 2012, 02:04:15 PM
Most of the franchises have local ownership in Jacksonville. Every Chick-Fil-A is a partnership between corporate (Atlanta) and someone here locally who has invested $5k and the profits are split down the middle. All the McDonald's I have seen, and Wendy's are locally owned by a franchisee who then has the territory and right to open new stores based on corporate guidelines. The Valentino family owns the rights for MM in Jacksonville, and MM has a very detailed franchise website for those who want to review their guidelines and store size information. Plus John purchased the gas station and dirt under it, so no matter what happens, he is now paying taxes on a parking lot and an empty gas station. That will change at some point.

Having been at Bluefish on Saturday and spent a lot of time with Frank, who is running a great operation with the help of Richard there at Bluefish. The rub on the street is that John wanted, originally, to put in a 300+ seat facility. Many of the other restaurants were, essentially, jealous of such an increase, when they (biscottis and brick) were limited in the amount of space they could expand.

Something I learned from Frank as well is that his group does not look to serve the 20-somethings who want to come in and do a row of shots. The bartenders at Bluefish send this crowd down to Mojo's. There is a fear, and I can understand why, that serving late night happy hour cocktails and beers will lead to more problems on St. Johns, so Frank is right to not add to it. You can have that along the King Street district, which leads to fun issues with neighbors and residents when cars are plowed into by overserved individuals.

I have a lot of new admiration for Frank, he stands up for what he believes, and I like the leadership he shows in Avondale. Love him or hate him, he has character and in this whole mess, there are a number of people on both sides who could show us all more character.

(The bartenders at Bluefish send this crowd down to Mojo's.) How about telling these people they have had all they are going to get? Instead of telling them Mojo's is a better place to get drunk? :o

QuoteHow about telling these people they have had all they are going to get? Instead of telling them Mojo's is a better place to get drunk?

You missed the point, went right over you. Bluefish does not serve them, period. If they want it, they send them to Mojo's, but you could easily get the same at Monty's or the Brick.

The younger crowd is typically at Mojo's or Monty's or Brick anyway. Should have seen the age difference at Bluefish and Brick on Friday night! WOW!

Quoteapparently you do.  Although what sucks is that the minority of you who live in Avondale that approve of these shenanigans really just dont give a damn about what the majority of the people who live in the neighborhood think either.

Don't let the door hit your $%# on the way out of Avondale. Doesn't Springfield need a new pioneer?   ::)

If the PEOPLE want change, show up and demand it, otherwise, stay in the corner and eat what you are served.

Quote from: mtraininjax on September 09, 2012, 07:13:06 AM

QuoteHow about telling these people they have had all they are going to get? Instead of telling them Mojo's is a better place to get drunk?

You missed the point, went right over you. Bluefish does not serve them, period. If they want it, they send them to Mojo's, but you could easily get the same at Monty's or the Brick.

The younger crowd is typically at Mojo's or Monty's or Brick anyway. Should have seen the age difference at Bluefish and Brick on Friday night! WOW!

Quoteapparently you do.  Although what sucks is that the minority of you who live in Avondale that approve of these shenanigans really just don't give a damn about what the majority of the people who live in the neighborhood think either.

Don't let the door hit your $%# on the way out of Avondale. Doesn't Springfield need a new pioneer?   ::)

If the PEOPLE want change, show up and demand it, otherwise, stay in the corner and eat what you are served.

To be honest I don't drink at all and for the most part if I want good seafood I buy it and cook it at home. I'm not much for going out to any Avondale restaurants. I perfer Steak Houses, some chain restaurants and others. :)

From Facebook:

QuoteWe Love Avondale
The JPMC and Planning Commission are expecting revised plans from MM this week; these new plans will first be reviewed at the JHPC at 6:00 p.m. Sept 19 at the Ed Ball Building, 214 N. Hogan Street. We will post copies when available. Hoping they take our concerns seriously!

So WLA doesn't think MM is taking them seriously when they've already changed their site plan once to incorporate the WLA driven design that called for a stucco box and the demo of the gas station.  Only to have WLA deny the new site plan that was a WLA design.

So now we're in a third revision, WLA driven, but MM isn't taking thier concerns seriously....   

Anyone want to bet $1 (US currency only) that WLA will probably claim that this plan doesn't meet their moving standards either?  Back to the drawing board. 

Now a more serious question for those of you who can answer:  How much modification can MM make to the original site plan from which the PUD was granted?   How long do they have to start construction before the PUD expires?

PUDs don't expire, they run with the land.  In the case of Mellow Mushroom, no PUD has been approved.  One was originally submitted, but was withdrawn. 

Quote from: riverside planner on September 10, 2012, 08:27:24 AM
PUDs don't expire, they run with the land.

That is a very important piece of information. Even through comp plan changes?

Quote from: Noone on September 10, 2012, 08:37:53 AM

Quote from: riverside planner on September 10, 2012, 08:27:24 AM
PUDs don't expire, they run with the land.

That is a very important piece of information. Even through comp plan changes?

The only way to get rid of a PUD is to rezone the property.  Remember that the comp plan and zoning are separate processes.

Quote from: Noone on September 10, 2012, 08:37:53 AM

Quote from: riverside planner on September 10, 2012, 08:27:24 AM
PUDs don't expire, they run with the land.

That is a very important piece of information. Even through comp plan changes?

A PUD is basically a zoning designation for specific site that may have difficulties conforming to the city's standard autocentric zoning regulations.  Personally, given the condition of our horrible zoning code, I actually prefer PUDs.  When the process is done right, you typically end up with the best end product from them.

QuoteTo be honest I don't drink at all and for the most part if I want good seafood I buy it and cook it at home. I'm not much for going out to any Avondale restaurants. I perfer Steak Houses, some chain restaurants and others

Well then, the south side is chain heaven.....enjoy. Eat all the red meat you want!

QuoteHow much modification can MM make to the original site plan from which the PUD was granted?

While John would like to build a nice front on the garage lot, he can, for all purposes tear down the garage, use the 'town/benham's space for the restaurant and use the garage lot for parking and tell WLA to kiss his ass and be done with it all. That is the plan he has in his back pocket because it is all existing space, and he can use this as his last alternative. However, IF he wants all the new looks, WLA will be all over him with the BS closing by midnight, no outdoor music after 9, all that garbage.

I'd tell John to tell WLA to go to hell and move on and start making money, NOW!

Quote from: mtraininjax on September 10, 2012, 04:56:58 PM

QuoteTo be honest I don't drink at all and for the most part if I want good seafood I buy it and cook it at home. I'm not much for going out to any Avondale restaurants. I perfer Steak Houses, some chain restaurants and others

Well then, the south side is chain heaven.....enjoy. Eat all the red meat you want!

QuoteHow much modification can MM make to the original site plan from which the PUD was granted?

While John would like to build a nice front on the garage lot, he can, for all purposes tear down the garage, use the 'town/benham's space for the restaurant and use the garage lot for parking and tell WLA to kiss his ass and be done with it all. That is the plan he has in his back pocket because it is all existing space, and he can use this as his last alternative. However, IF he wants all the new looks, WLA will be all over him with the BS closing by midnight, no outdoor music after 9, all that garbage.

I'd tell John to tell WLA to go to hell and move on and start making money, NOW!

Lol, as-if...   "Oh please Bre'r Fox, whatever you do, don't throw me in the Briar Patch!" 

Not much chance of that happening here; WLA's Tar Baby is pretty obvious to everyone concerned, and i doubt Ole Bre'r Rabbit Valentino is gonna fall for it.  You may be right that at some point WLA might be told to kiss ass given that they're nothing more than a powerless pack of Porch Nazi's, but i strongly doubt that it will be in the context of John capitulating and opening only in the 'town space with nothing more than parking in the former gas station lot.  Just a hunch..

The only power WLA has in this situation is afforded them only by John's good-natured willingness to engage them in this process; if he wants to be as bad a neighbor as they're already being he can pretty much ram just about anything he wants down their throats.

I, for one, wish he would.  But that's just the Jersey in me. 

How would doing exactly what WLA wants be telling them to kiss your ass?  Seems like MM would be kissing the add in that situation.

Quote from: acme54321 on September 10, 2012, 09:25:51 PM
How would doing exactly what WLA wants be telling them to kiss your ass?  Seems like MM would be kissing the add in that situation.

me thinks you read that wrong.