Metro Jacksonville

OUCH! DAMN MAN! OUCH!

QuoteSATURDAY, AUG 18, 2012 12:00 PM EDT
Tampa: America’s hottest mess
The GOP convention's host city is a disaster, and a perfect reflection of where Tea Party politics will lead cities


Poke around the White House website and you can still find the hopeful “fact sheet” for a 324-mile high-speed rail line linking Miami, Orlando and Tampa.

No such system exists, of course â€" it was killed by Florida Gov. Rick Scott. Today, there’s a 40-acre vacant lot where the Tampa terminal would have stood. And when Republicans arrive for their national convention in about a week and catch a glimpse of it, they’ll likely see a big win. In fact, the GOP will find a lot of things in Tampa that exemplify their commitment to not investing in the future.

“The trend [in Tampa] today is to say, ‘We don’t need it â€" no new taxes â€" we are not going to invest anymore,’” former Pinellas County Commissioner Ronnie Duncan recently told Tampa Bay Online. “And that message resonates from not only the constituents, but the leadership of the Republican Party.” You could fairly call the GOP vision for the country the Tampafication of America.

Tampa is a hot urban mess, equal parts Reagan ’80s and Paul Ryan 2010s. Urban renewal projects decimated the city in the ’60s, but its current persona was forged in earnest starting three decades ago, when finance and insurance companies started moving their back-office operations there, attracted by the sunshine and low-cost labor. The 1988 bestseller “Megatrends” declared Tampa “America’s next great city.” Real estate joined the service economy as a major economic pillar, and the city embarked on a building spree, sprouting large glass towers disconnected from the city itself, a development pattern that offered little incentive to invest in things like parks, transit or walkable spaces.

This left little of the quality urbanism people now pay a premium for. And while other cities made similar mistakes, Tampa has been slow to correct theirs, stymied by tight-fisted Tea Party politics. “We look at Dallas or Houston, with all the same challenges we have; they’ve managed to start changing their patterns of development and attract the creative-class younger folks who are looking for alternatives to the suburban lifestyle,” says Steve Schukraft, the Tampa Bay area’s representative to the Congress for the New Urbanism. When you’re wistfully pining for Houston’s urban virtues, things are not going well.

But that’s where Tampa finds itself. Even Houston, like other Sun Belt cities, has been working to rectify its mistakes, constructing successful light-rail lines and some lively mixed-use neighborhoods. Meanwhile, in 2010, voters in Tampa’s Hillsborough County rejected a one-cent sales tax that would have funded a new light-rail system. (That same year, the Tampa Bay area saw the nation’s largest increase in traffic congestion.) Fifty percent of the urban core is now set aside for parking, says Shannon Bassett, assistant professor of architecture and urbanism at the University of South Florida.

These choices have left their mark. In 2010, Forbes ranked Tampa dead last out of 60 metro areas for commuting. Transportation for America declared it the second-most-dangerous city for pedestrians. And a 2007 survey of 30 metropolitan areas found exactly one with no walkable destinations: Tampa, Fla. “Tampa is not a particularly pedestrian-friendly city,” Mayor Bob Buckhorn recently admitted.

Bassett is working to “de-engineer” the city from this current state. “How do you address the lack of pedestrianism, the lack of civic space, the lack of shade, which is crucial for Florida urbanism?” she asks. “There’s some bike paths now, and landscaping, but to me it’s not integrative. I think it needs a larger rethinking of its infrastructure. It’s operating in more of an ’80s mentality.”

But de-engineering isn’t easy in a city with an aversion not only to public spending, but urban planning. Tea Party paranoia includes a bizarre fear of smart-growth policies, in which more intelligent land-use management is seen as a shadowy United Nations conspiracy (complete with a scary-sounding name: Agenda 21). And while the city of Tampa might not be hard-right politically, Hillsborough and Pinella Counties, which control many of the decisions that affect it, are bona fide birther territory. “The county commission is much more conservative now than it was in the late ’80s, early ’90s,” says Robert Kerstein, who teaches the city’s history and politics at the University of Tampa. “They have a strong religious-right orientation.”

One of their commandments is Thou Shalt Not Densify. Sprawl is gospel in Tampa Bay â€" the city itself has only about 4.6 people per acre. Rather than build up, in 1988, Tampa annexed 24 square miles to its north, filled it with low-density development and named it New Tampa (the name itself implying that “old” downtown Tampa is obsolete). The Suncoast Parkway, opened in 2001, is emblematic of the area’s development, and one reason why the region’s growth is mostly occurring 50 miles away. Downtown Tampa, meanwhile, has a windswept, desolate feel outside of business hours. “It still suffers from CBD (central business district) syndrome,” says Bassett. “People come to work and then leave. To me the city is rural-urban. Not to the extent of Detroit, but kind of comparable.”

Without a downtown that bustles beyond the 9-to-5, “America’s Next Great City” has fallen to last place among six nearby economies as measured by the Tampa Bay Partnership’s economic scorecard. The median family income in Tampa Bay (which includes St. Petersburg and Clearwater) is $55,700, lower than most others in the region. And business owners are starting to panic that letting the city go to pot will start impacting the tourism industry. “Behind the scenes, [business leaders] have discussed the need to provide ‘political cover’ for elected officials interested in working toward infrastructure investment,” reported Tampa Bay Online.

Some of those elected officials, especially the ones in the city proper, are doing their best to push through improvements even as their countywide counterparts just say no. Mayor Buckhorn, elected last year, spoke in July at a Politico-hosted discussion about the RNC, and talked about the need for the city to transform both physically and philosophically. “It’s a city that’s trying to change its economic DNA from real estate and tourism to a more technological, value-added economy,” he said. “I’ve got a 6-year-old and an 11- year-old … and if I want them to come home someday, and not go to Austin, Texas, or San Diego or to some other technology center, I’ve got to create an environment that allows them to come home to a job that wants the education my wife and I are going to give them.”

On that front, the city has been talking up two marquee efforts. The first is the University of South Florida’s new Center for Advanced Medical Learning and Simulation. Billed as the largest facility in the world that allows med students to practice surgery without a patient, the $38 million facility, right downtown, hopes to draw 60,000 people to the city each year. The other is the Riverwalk, which will open up the Hillsborough River with 2.6 miles of green space. In June, the city received $11 million from the Obama administration to finish the project. Already, the Tampa Museum of Art has relocated there, alongside a new eight-acre park that stages live performances and events. Yelp reviewers have been gushing with gratitude for the desperately needed public space.

Buckhorn’s predecessor, Pam Iorio, also worked to get more residents downtown, but the housing collapse â€" which hit Florida hard, and Tampa in particular â€" slammed the brakes on much of that. “Before the downturn hit, very substantial pieces of downtown had been redeveloped,” says Gary Sasso, president of the legal services outfit Carlton Fields and former chairman of the Tampa Bay Partnership. “That’s starting to come into its own again. I think there’s a real demand for that here. It’s very exciting and I think will launch an era of prosperity in Tampa.”

Bassett isn’t so sure. Two years ago, when Rick Scott sent back the $1.2 billion that President Obama had allotted for Florida’s high-speed rail, she got the idea for a contest called [Re]stitch Tampa. Entrants conceptualized public spaces along the new Riverwalk, which, while ambitious, seemed to Bassett to suffer from the design issues that often plague Tampa’s attempts at better urbanism. “The city does have design guidelines, but in this economy they’ll usually give in to what the developer wants. There was a law firm asking if they could keep their parking lot on the Riverwalk, and it’s like, no, it’s not OK to have a parking lot on the Riverwalk! There’s no large-scale vision for the civic realm.” Indeed, many of Tampa’s efforts have either seemed too small â€" a bike lane here, a sidewalk there â€" or large, but not exactly current. “We do spend public money,” says Kerstein. “They built the convention center, the aquarium, the baseball stadium,” (the last of which, Tropicana Field, is in St. Petersburg.) One doesn’t sense an overarching plan.

And that may be exactly how some of the local political leaders want it. Plans cost money, require collaboration, and stink of an elitist plot in which the government’s guiding hand quashes our freedom to grow as un-smart and un-sustainably as we want to. There are people in Tampa who want to improve the city â€" it’s worth noting that even though the light-rail tax was overwhelmingly rejected by the county at large, a majority of the city’s residents voted yes. And Mayor Buckhorn’s 2013 budget proposal, unveiled this month, manages to scrape together $100 million for capital improvements to public amenities.

But Tampa can only do so much thanks to a toxic combination of hostility toward government, revenue and collectively used amenities. What’s the matter with Tampa? The Republican conventioneers will get to see for themselves when they arrive. Except that some of them will be staying up to 90 miles away from the convention venue. “Tampa’s reeeally spread out,” the host of the Politico discussion observed to Mayor Buckhorn. That it is. And because of this, the city has chartered over 400 buses to move the convention visitors around while they’re there. It’s an inconvenient, makeshift, make-do solution â€" the kind that’s necessary when you don’t plan and don’t invest.

SOURCE: http://www.salon.com/2012/08/18/tampa_americas_hottest_mess/singleton/

Having lived in Tampa for 8 years (actually I lived in the county), I had the pleasure of experiencing all of this 1st hand. No one here should complain about traffic until you've driven Hillsborough Avenue, Waters Avenue, the Veterans Expressway, or 275 at rush hour. The last job I had there, before returning to Jax, was 6 1/2 miles from home. In the morning it took over an hour to drive to work, and at least 45 minutes to get home in the evenings. Driving was the ONLY option. No buses ran anywhere close to the house.

The "Bay Area" as they call it is overcrowded, overpriced, and grossly over-rated. They're quick to bulldoze their historic buildings, too. (Must be a Florida thing)

When I moved to Hillsborough County my car insurance went up about 15%. When I returned to Jacksonville it dropped about 20%.

The one thing they did right in Tampa was Tampa International Airport. JAX could learn many lessons from TPA in how to design and build an airport.

As many problems as we may have here, Im glad I dont live in Hillsborough County anymore.

We don't live in a vacuum. The same types of issues that negatively affect Jacksonville also affect other communities in the state. If they don't like Tampa imagine what they'd say about the Orlando area.

yeah it also goes to show that it is not related to population.  I always hear people say if Jacksonville was bigger it would know better- or be forced to change.  Things can get pretty crappy before the powers that be decide to change, if that ever happens at all.  We are heading very fast into this direction. 
Another thing I cannot stand is when the Tea Party says:  "Would you want to be like Europe?" 
Ah well.... ?? What is so bad about Europe? 
Would you want to be Canadian?   Does not sound so bad to me!

Quote from: Tacachale on August 18, 2012, 06:56:23 PM
We don't live in a vacuum. The same types of issues that negatively affect Jacksonville also affect other communities in the state. If they don't like Tampa imagine what they'd say about the Orlando area.

What I was thinking. This is pretty much most of Florida, the land that unsustainable growth built. A post war boom state that northerners got collective hard ons for (esp after the Mouse arrived) since it wasn't nearly as developed like their states were. Like everything post WWII, it was largely built around the automobile & sprawl in general, with smart planning & growth boundaries taking a back seat. And if smart planning was enacted before that, simply remove it (streetcars), abandon it (urban cores), and let the rest rot so you can tear it down to keep the process going (hello, Jacksonville). Throw in some consolidations, "conservative" politics & a dash of corruption, and here we are.

Of course, we can say the same things about a lot of states, but FL is a doozie. And one that seems like they'll never learn their lesson, or simply can't because they've been addicted to it for so long & it drives a lot of their economy. Even though it puts every resident into a bind (even if they don't know it).

Looking at the article it appears that Jacksonville and Miami are the only cities in the state that rate as having invested in their urbanized area's to a greater extent then the others. WE HAVE a state-of-the-art urban monorail... (then failed to complete a single line of it). But the core and the maintenance facility is up and running. We have a massive city park system (but the ugliest damn Airport Exit {I-95}in the USA). We have a lovely Riverwalk, TWO OF THEM IN FACT, along with some very bohemian/Indie neighborhoods tucked nicely against the core (5-Points, San Marco, King Street, Avondale, Springfield and perhaps Saint Nicholas). We have more historic buildings then most other Florida cities combined (though we have allowed too many icons of the past to slip away). Our 'festival markets' on the waterfront (Landing and Arts Market) might need some polish, but it's a good start. Hell, I even noticed a couple of people on the sidewalk the other day, and hey, isn't that a new boutique clothing store on Laura? Maybe the old hometown is on a roll...

Where do you read into Jacksonville even being considered in this article?

how is our airport exit ugly?  I can name about 20 "uglier" ones if you would like.  It's a fecking Interstate exit to begin with, what the feck are you looking for?

^^Challenge accepted!

I think it's very difficult being in a conservative state.  States like FL, GA and TN do not get proper representation from urban/more liberal areas and are still overly controlled by rural, exurban and suburban legislatures and extremely right wing governors, et al.  The North Carolina state model needs to be replicated in FL, GA and TN, the 3 most urbanized states in the SE outside of NC.  NC is investing in infrastructure statewide and the legislative body is controlled by progressive (or at least pragmatic) members from Charlotte, Raleigh, Durham, Winston Salem, Greensboro, etc etc.

Also with Charlotte a center of banking and Raleigh-Durham a center of education, advanced healthcare and tech, the transplants that move there are mostly young, forward thinking and highly educated individuals.  FL as an entire state does not seem to attract the same level of young professional and is run by veterans, retirees, conservative middle-aged folks, uneducated young people and rural swamp people.

If Jacksonville as a whole can attract the same types that go to the City of Atlanta, Charlotte, Raleigh and the City of Nashville, then it would be in a prime position because of its consolidation.  If the entire county of Duval were to somehow transform to be made up mostly of progressive professionals and those with college degrees, then the city/county can work outside of the state's lack of support to build better infrastructure.  I don't see it happening, but that would be when consolidation works to a benefit.

Cities like Miami, Tampa Atlanta and even the tiny City of Orlando are often at a major disadvantage since they are so small relative to county and of course state, and so they are fighting uphill battles all the time.  Jacksonville fights uphill battles with itself because it is the county, but imagine if Duval County were more uniformly progressive!

I guess that's a major point of the article.  Tampa can try to build itself up and become something great, but then it has to wage war against the county and of course won't find any support from the state.

As an example of piss poor state government, I was trying to catch a train to the Braves game last night and waited 30 minutes without any schedule posted on the screens about when the next train would arrive, only to learn there was a delay (30 minutes in).  I had to run out of the station and catch a cab to make the game.  I attribute this experience to regulations by the STATE of GA to forbid MARTA from spending more than 50% of its operating revenue on operations, resulting in crap like this.  Of course GA won't send one penny to MARTA (the only large system in country to not receive any funding from state), but despite its hands free funding approach it still micromanages every aspect of the system and regulates how the system can expand, collect fare, operate, routes, station placement, etc (the whole system was set up in the 70s to fail on purpose by rural Georgian legislators who were racist anti-Atlanta SOBs).  These are people from Waycross essentially running urban Atlanta's train system and refusing to run it well or allowing it to run itself, and of course refusing to fund it (because what's good for Atlanta must obviously be bad for the state right?.

Even with all the shenanigans in Jacksonville's own city government, it's just as bad at the state level.  Welcome to the South and good luck.

Anytime the leaders of a city discuss declaring bankruptcy, as our council and administration have discussed, on the record, what business wants to move to our great city? We need to fix our own budget issues, get the city growing and saving, and the businesses will move to strong growing communities.

Until we get our own house in order, I do not expect a lot of new growth.

Quote from: thelakelander on August 18, 2012, 11:33:28 PM
Where do you read into Jacksonville even being considered in this article?

We are not named, in fact I don't recall any other place being singled out, but using the writers criteria for Florida cities, I think we score better then most. That said, we are in real danger of losing any remaining edge we might have due to paralysis at the top. Fort Lauderdale has a streetcar project (The Waver) coming up, Sarasota and Miami both have projects on the drawing boards. Tampa's streetcar is the only one in the state that is up and running, however it suffers from Skyway Syndrome with politicians using it as an example of waste... Never mind the $1 Billion in new development attributed to the streetcar.

Perhaps we should research an economic benefit of the Skyway!

Quote from: fsquid on August 19, 2012, 12:43:49 AM
how is our airport exit ugly?  I can name about 20 "uglier" ones if you would like.  It's a fecking Interstate exit to begin with, what the feck are you looking for?

Going north out of the city to the airport on I-95, the wizards of JTA created a double exit for Airport Road, confusing for our visitors. If you find the right exit it leaves the interstate on a hairpin 25 mile per hour curve that immediately plunges one into the middle of a pine forest. Nothing to look at and if you are unfortunate enough not to know this really IS a 25 mph curve, you and your car can actually take flight... it's the landing that will screw things up. Much of the time this old exit is lined with JTA/FDOT's Jacksonville trademark weeds, litter and scrub.

Westbound under the FREEway interchange, one is awed by a forest of 1970's something C-Stores/Service Stations. I'm fine with the service stations, hotels and restaurants being there, but not if they are going to resemble a greasy truck stop in Albuquerque.

Eastbound out of the airport, the on ramps look better but again, the dated nature of the road, lack of maintenance, and those glorious 1970 something, dirty C-Store's, all combine to set the stage for 'The Jacksonville experience.'

Unless Disney, Sea World and Universal Studios fall into a massive sinkhole, we'll never have the traffic at our airport that Orlando has, but we could take lessons from 'The City Beautiful' in 'Airport Exit 101.' Likewise several out of state places come to mind with similar size airports and airport traffic. Oklahoma City for example has an airport with just a fraction less flights then we have, but the airport exit and entrance are bold if not stunningly impressive. Perhaps somewhere along the way we lost the 'Bold' in our 'New City Of The South.'

I don't understand why "conservative" has to mean that you're opposed to sidewalks or so-called "smart growth" or anything like that. I can appreciate why some people worry about taxes. But surely wanting to live in a city that is thriving and successful (and a good place to live, to boot) is something that should cut across all political outlooks. Or at least most.

I think the problem is a particular kind of conservative "thought" that is in vogue right now. That has to be eradicated. And it has to be eradicated from within the Republican party by forward-thinking types who can see the good business sense in stopping the sprawl and rebuilding/revitalizing Downtown.

Wow, is the city really discussing bankruptcy?  That's pretty bad, but still I think businesses follow their workforce nowadays and several now successful cities have actually gone through bankruptcy in the past to no ill effect today.  Even NYC was essentially bankrupt in the 70s for practically the entire decade, but it did have to curb public unions and pensions and slash the budget.  It's still a big union town with big pensions for government workers, etc and it's the most successful urban city in North America (EVERY company wants a presence there despite high COL and high taxes).

Jacksonville can be bankrupt, but if it's workforce is young and very well educated the companies will still flock here, me thinks.

Quote from: fsquid on August 19, 2012, 12:43:49 AM
how is our airport exit ugly?  I can name about 20 "uglier" ones if you would like.  It's a fecking Interstate exit to begin with, what the feck are you looking for?

The exit is pretty ugly, but there are two things worse about it:

1) It's north of the city which means everyone visiting has to drive 95 on the northside through an obviously large ghetto, not a good first impression.

2) When you leave the airport at the first overpass near the Tradeport (on the right) is usually a horrible speed trap, so you're real first impression is actually a speeding ticket.  Then it's the trashy exit with budget motels and outdated service stations, then it's an extended pine forest, then it's an extended ghetto.

First impressions in Jacksonville absolutely suck (at least the airport is clean and nice and not crowded).

QuoteJacksonville can be bankrupt, but if it's workforce is young and very well educated the companies will still flock here, me thinks.

I disagree, and I live here and see it daily, businesses invest when they feel comfortable about their plans for profit, if there is an uncertain future (taxes, education, issues with public safety - all items on the table with the city and how to pay for them, not to mention pensions), there are safer locations in Florida and the country. The stigma of bankruptcy is like the Scarlet Letter and takes a while to be removed. We do not want to become the pariah of Florida. This is an extreme, but people do not move to a bankrupt area when there are so many other good options in Florida and the folks here have done a good job of pointing out the more progressive areas of Florida.

Stockton, California will forever be known as a bankrupt city, even when the economy comes back. I'd rather we not experience that title.

I disagree and I'll leave it at that.  What makes or breaks a city isn't a one time event, but rather the dynamics of the people and the workforce within the city.  The city must attract the right work force for the economy it is trying to build, and then everything else takes a backseat in importance to firms within that type of economy.

Stockton was a POS before and is a POS now.  Idiots moved there before and nobody moves there now.  An entire economy built on a fake real estate boom and a workforce consisting of poor retirees, criminals, and uneducated idiots now stuck there.  Very transparent situation to most of the world.  It would be in just as bad a shape without the bankruptcy as with because it has nothing going for it.

NYC was technically bankrupt for an entire decade.  Orange County went bankrupt in the 90s.  For all intents and purposes both Birmingham and Atlanta went bankrupt within the past decade.

These things happen.  Taxes are raised, water bills become the highest in the country, etc etc.  All of that doesn't matter if you have the educated workforce and the inflow of immigrants most medium-sized to larger-sized or certain small/start up firms need to exist.

Anyway I hope Jacksonville does not go bankrupt, but really can the city pay for anything anyways?  I would think bankruptcy would be a nominal condition.  The same condition plaguing Atlanta also plagues Jacksonville - the inability and lack of funds to build proper and significant infrastructure.  The only difference lies in the workforce and more firms are willing to overlook certain things like bad schools and awful infrastructure and higher taxes to be in Atlanta over Jacksonville because of the workforce in place.

QuoteWhat makes or breaks a city isn't a one time event, but rather the dynamics of the people and the workforce within the city.  The city must attract the right work force for the economy it is trying to build, and then everything else takes a backseat in importance to firms within that type of economy.

I agree, a bankruptcy is not a make or break issue, but the uncertainty is a problem and businesses would rather have certainty than uncertainty. How does the city attract the right work force, if the businesses are not here because the work force is uneducated for the work product of the business? The Chamber is supposed to be the rah-rah economic engine, but that is a topic for another board!

Because our educated youth are where they are, we attract all those mortgage processing jobs, call centers, and many dead end jobs. 20% of our GDP is based on healthcare, yet the city has no "public/private" partnership to help grow the healthcare sector, which creates permanent jobs and expands our tax base. This should be our future, but the education system is not there, yet. It could be. A growing healthcare sector increases taxes collected and raises all boats in revenue.

Atlanta is a great city, that has its own issues, but bankruptcy is/was not one of them. The article on how they addressed their pension issues was an eye opener for me, I am sure it was for many of our city council as well.  Until we get control of our expenditures in our great city, we will not be able to grow.

Quote from: simms3 on August 19, 2012, 10:27:39 AM

Quote from: fsquid on August 19, 2012, 12:43:49 AM
how is our airport exit ugly?  I can name about 20 "uglier" ones if you would like.  It's a fecking Interstate exit to begin with, what the feck are you looking for?

The exit is pretty ugly, but there are two things worse about it:

1) It's north of the city which means everyone visiting has to drive 95 on the northside through an obviously large ghetto, not a good first impression.

2) When you leave the airport at the first overpass near the Tradeport (on the right) is usually a horrible speed trap, so you're real first impression is actually a speeding ticket.  Then it's the trashy exit with budget motels and outdated service stations, then it's an extended pine forest, then it's an extended ghetto.

First impressions in Jacksonville absolutely suck (at least the airport is clean and nice and not crowded).

Being realistic, your drive on I-95 through town is similar to driving on I-75 through Toledo.

Quote from: Ocklawaha on August 19, 2012, 10:19:20 AM

Quote from: thelakelander on August 18, 2012, 11:33:28 PM
Where do you read into Jacksonville even being considered in this article?

We are not named, in fact I don't recall any other place being singled out, but using the writers criteria for Florida cities, I think we score better then most. That said, we are in real danger of losing any remaining edge we might have due to paralysis at the top. Fort Lauderdale has a streetcar project (The Waver) coming up, Sarasota and Miami both have projects on the drawing boards. Tampa's streetcar is the only one in the state that is up and running, however it suffers from Skyway Syndrome with politicians using it as an example of waste... Never mind the $1 Billion in new development attributed to the streetcar.

Perhaps we should research an economic benefit of the Skyway!

I doubt they even view Jacksonville on the same level as Tampa and Miami.  Nevertheless, Tampa has just as many urban neighborhoods as we do and their urban commercial districts are a lot larger (ex. SoHo, Ybor, etc.).  Ybor's 7th Avenue is 10-11 straight blocks of bars, retail and restaurants.  By comparison, King Street has about five continuous commercial blocks to work with and we can't even infill those properly.

They also have the Channel District which has seen a level of urban development we still dream about for LaVilla and Brooklyn.  For those who have not been to the Channel District, envision 1661 scale buildings being nearly every lot in Brooklyn between Park & Riverside Avenue.

Nevertheless, in terms of urbanism, if compared with our peers nationally, all of Florida's major cities outside of the Miami metro, would get a fat "F".

I guess I'm going to the wrong airports.  I can't think of a single airport exit that give me any good impression.  Mainly because those that live near airports are either ghetto people or rural ones.   Also is there really any good impressions given by the side of the interstate when going through a metropolis?  Again, people with money don't usually live by an interstate.

Quote from: thelakelander on August 19, 2012, 02:45:22 PM

Quote from: Ocklawaha on August 19, 2012, 10:19:20 AM

Quote from: thelakelander on August 18, 2012, 11:33:28 PM
Where do you read into Jacksonville even being considered in this article?

We are not named, in fact I don't recall any other place being singled out, but using the writers criteria for Florida cities, I think we score better then most. That said, we are in real danger of losing any remaining edge we might have due to paralysis at the top. Fort Lauderdale has a streetcar project (The Waver) coming up, Sarasota and Miami both have projects on the drawing boards. Tampa's streetcar is the only one in the state that is up and running, however it suffers from Skyway Syndrome with politicians using it as an example of waste... Never mind the $1 Billion in new development attributed to the streetcar.

Perhaps we should research an economic benefit of the Skyway!

I doubt they even view Jacksonville on the same level as Tampa and Miami.  Nevertheless, Tampa has just as many urban neighborhoods as we do and their urban commercial districts are a lot larger (ex. SoHo, Ybor, etc.).  Ybor's 7th Avenue is 10-11 straight blocks of bars, retail and restaurants.  By comparison, King Street has about five continuous commercial blocks to work with and we can't even infill those properly.

They also have the Channel District which has seen a level of urban development we still dream about for LaVilla and Brooklyn.  For those who have not been to the Channel District, envision 1661 scale buildings being nearly every lot in Brooklyn between Park & Riverside Avenue.

Nevertheless, in terms of urbanism, if compared with our peers nationally, all of Florida's major cities outside of the Miami metro, would get a fat "F".

If we could duplicate the Channelside idea in Brooklyn it would be a real plus for Jacksonville. I love that area of Tampa.

Nevertheless, Tampa has just as many urban neighborhoods as we do

Tampa may have as many, but comparing the overall neighborhoods of Riverside/Avondale, and San Marco-connected by the bridges is not even close. The beauty of R/A and San Marco is heads and shoulders above anything in Tampa.

Quote from: CG7 on August 20, 2012, 12:26:00 PM
Nevertheless, Tampa has just as many urban neighborhoods as we do

Tampa may have as many, but comparing the overall neighborhoods of Riverside/Avondale, and San Marco-connected by the bridges is not even close. The beauty of R/A and San Marco is heads and shoulders above anything in Tampa.

I don't know about that -  I used to live in Hyde Park and I think it comes close. But that's just my opinion.

No doubt, Riverside and San Marco are nice but they aren't unique to the State of Florida.  Tampa has comparable intown neighborhoods as well because both cities boomed around the same time.

Bayshore sure is pretty nice!

Bayshore is nice.  I always thought it would be cool if there was someway to directly connect the riverfront promenade at St. Vincent's from King Street to Memorial Park and the Northbank Riverwalk.  However, Mayor Peyton was flamed when he considered extending the Riverwalk to Memorial Park.

Quote from: thelakelander on August 20, 2012, 01:58:54 PM
Bayshore is nice.  I always thought it would be cool if there was someway to directly connect the riverfront promenade at St. Vincent's from King Street to Memorial Park and the Northbank Riverwalk.  However, Mayor Peyton was flamed when he considered extending the Riverwalk to Memorial Park.

The northbank riverwalk was one of the best things to happen to Jax in the past 10 years. It's a shame Peyton wasn't able to connect/extend it... that would've been just amazing. Maybe that's something for the future?

I have been toTampa literally hundreds of times (I used to work out of Tampa a couple days a week for years), and you are obviously not very familiar with R/A because I take my work cohorts from Tampa there whenever possible, and they along with myself recognize the beauty of the different styles of homes, the marriage of the neighborhood and the river along with the trees... never ever underestimate the beauty of the streets and parks in R/A. The area is also very unique to Florida, as well as anywhere when you combine the asthestics of the river the multitude of the housing styles, and the TREES!! But that is just my opinion as someone who have seen both areas extensively.

Yes, I'm pretty familiar with R/A, about to head over there in another hour or so, and I grew up just outside of Tampa.  We'll have to agree to disagree on this one but neighborhoods like Hyde Park offer just as much in terms of amenities for urban living in Florida.  From my view, the differences between Jacksonville and Tampa's best urban neighborhoods aren't that great (when excluding new urban infill and size of entertainment clusters) and that's not a knock on either community.  I think where urban Jax really excels is the bones of forgotten districts like the entire Northside.  There's some real gems and interesting spaces across this city that are being completely ignored.

Quote from: thelakelander on August 20, 2012, 03:46:01 PM
Yes, I'm pretty familiar with R/A, about to head over there in another hour or so, and I grew up just outside of Tampa.  We'll have to agree to disagree on this one but neighborhoods like Hyde Park offer just as much in terms of amenities for urban living in Florida.  From my view, the differences between Jacksonville and Tampa's best urban neighborhoods aren't that great (when excluding new urban infill and size of entertainment clusters) and that's not a knock on either community.  I think where urban Jax really excels is the bones of forgotten districts like the entire Northside.  There's some real gems and interesting spaces across this city that are being completely ignored.

Years ago I had a job taking photos of houses for a property magazine (like auto trader for houses or whatever). Anyway, I got to drive all over and see places in Jax (and around NE Florida) that I had never, ever seen. I remember thinking that Norwood was really cool. I think that old part of the north side is amazing. It reminded me of Avondale in some ways.

Quote from: Ocklawaha on August 19, 2012, 10:19:20 AM

Quote from: thelakelander on August 18, 2012, 11:33:28 PM
Where do you read into Jacksonville even being considered in this article?

We are not named, in fact I don't recall any other place being singled out, but using the writers criteria for Florida cities, I think we score better then most. That said, we are in real danger of losing any remaining edge we might have due to paralysis at the top. Fort Lauderdale has a streetcar project (The Waver) coming up, Sarasota and Miami both have projects on the drawing boards. Tampa's streetcar is the only one in the state that is up and running, however it suffers from Skyway Syndrome with politicians using it as an example of waste... Never mind the $1 Billion in new development attributed to the streetcar.

Perhaps we should research an economic benefit of the Skyway!

Quote from: fsquid on August 19, 2012, 12:43:49 AM
how is our airport exit ugly?  I can name about 20 "uglier" ones if you would like.  It's a fecking Interstate exit to begin with, what the feck are you looking for?

Going north out of the city to the airport on I-95, the wizards of JTA created a double exit for Airport Road, confusing for our visitors. If you find the right exit it leaves the interstate on a hairpin 25 mile per hour curve that immediately plunges one into the middle of a pine forest. Nothing to look at and if you are unfortunate enough not to know this really IS a 25 mph curve, you and your car can actually take flight... it's the landing that will screw things up. Much of the time this old exit is lined with JTA/FDOT's Jacksonville trademark weeds, litter and scrub.

Westbound under the FREEway interchange, one is awed by a forest of 1970's something C-Stores/Service Stations. I'm fine with the service stations, hotels and restaurants being there, but not if they are going to resemble a greasy truck stop in Albuquerque.

Eastbound out of the airport, the on ramps look better but again, the dated nature of the road, lack of maintenance, and those glorious 1970 something, dirty C-Store's, all combine to set the stage for 'The Jacksonville experience.'

Unless Disney, Sea World and Universal Studios fall into a massive sinkhole, we'll never have the traffic at our airport that Orlando has, but we could take lessons from 'The City Beautiful' in 'Airport Exit 101.' Likewise several out of state places come to mind with similar size airports and airport traffic. Oklahoma City for example has an airport with just a fraction less flights then we have, but the airport exit and entrance are bold if not stunningly impressive. Perhaps somewhere along the way we lost the 'Bold' in our 'New City Of The South.'

It maybe ugly, but fort sure it's a confusing mess.  This past weekend I had relatives staying at one of the lodges on Airport Rd.  The information sign showed the lodge, but didn't indicate which exit would take me there.  No indication rather the lodge was left or right of the interstate.

ANOTHER ARTICLE JUST IN: CAN YOU IMAGINE A JACKSONVILLE POLITICO SPEAKING UP FOR TRANSIT LIKE THIS?

http://www.wtsp.com/news/local/article/269481/8/Buckhorn-Convention-could-expose-Tampas-transit-troubles

QuoteTAMPA, Florida - Mayor Bob Buckhorn admits Tampa has a transportation problem. While he told 10 News he hopes the city is prepared for next week's Republican National Convention, he said the event could showcase the city's weaknesses.

"Anytime you host an event like this, you see your strengths and you see your weaknesses," Buckhorn said Tuesday. "Obviously, not having mass transit is a big weakness that the Bay area's had for a long time."

Buckhorn's comments come after a flurry of columns and headlines critical of Tampa's transportation and transit options.  They include a Tampa Bay Times editorial and Salon.com feature that called Tampa "America's Hottest Mess."

Salon.com criticized Florida's rejection of high-speed rail, Hillsborough County's rejection of local light rail, and a number of studies that have ranked the region among the least-friendly toward pedestrians and traffic in the country.


"We've got to think beyond just expanding highways," Buckhorn, a Democrat, said. "We are the only region in the country without some type of mobility options. So, in spite of the referendum of a year ago and in spite of Gov. Scott's decision, the reality is we're going to need light rail at some point and we need to continue to work toward that point."

A downed sign on the Davis Islands bridge -- and the ensuing traffic problems on Tuesday -- showed how vulnerable Tampa was to transportation disruptions.

The RNC, with its 400-plus buses and highway shutdowns, could pose bigger problems.

The city was dealt a blow several months ago as well, when TBARTA and Buckhorn's administration discussed dedicated bus lanes on I-275 during convention week. However, FDOT told 10 News the issue was never studied, or seriously considered by the agency, because of infrastructure limitations.

"We think we can handle this convention's (transportation) without any real accommodations," Buckhorn said. "But I think, long-term, we need to plan for more people being here, more development occurring, more mobility options."

Of course, every story got to be phrased in a way to be negative towards Jax. It couldn't have simply been "Tampa takes a hit hosting the GOP convention". No, that's too nice, you gotta drag Jax into this story even though it doesn't have a damn thing to do with Jacksonville. That's the typical mindset of most MJers for ya. 

Quote from: I-10east on August 23, 2012, 12:01:43 AM
Of course, every story got to be phrased in a way to be negative towards Jax. It couldn't have simply been "Tampa takes a hit hosting the GOP convention". No, that's too nice, you gotta drag Jax into this story even though it doesn't have a damn thing to do with Jacksonville. That's the typical mindset of most MJers for ya.

I guess it could've been: "Tampa, a city worth complaining about"

Or: "Tampa, a place where people somewhat give a damn"

And another just because this is fun: "A Florida city Americans actually notice: Tampa"

^^^Keep on indulging in the negativity. A thread title like this is no different from the national media sports a-holes that says the Jags are gonna move to LA, London, etc every 5 seconds. There's no correlation with bashing your city, and being progressive, contrary to popular belief. Hell, I'm used to MJ bashing Jax whenever we tear down any utility shack that's located downtown,  but a story that's not even related to Jacksonville? I guess that it's too much to ask to diss the city when the story is actually related to the city.  ::)   

I-10east + 1875.3694 You deserve a golden star!(https://encrypted-tbn3.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ83q2v9ZZjxdDPPaHp1C7UcOPmn3SaQZHPa741a2FIhfAtCQDMxw)

Quote from: I-10east on August 23, 2012, 01:41:10 AM
^^^Keep on indulging in the negativity. A thread title like this is no different from the national media sports a-holes that says the Jags are gonna move to LA, London, etc every 5 seconds. There's no correlation with bashing your city, and being progressive, contrary to popular belief. Hell, I'm used to MJ bashing Jax when we tear down any utility shack located downtown,  but a story that's not even related to Jacksonville? I guess that it's too much to ask to bash to city when the story is actually related to the city.  ::)

There's also no benefit to pretending that there are no lessons to be learned from other cities. Replace Tampa with Jacksonville in this article and it would read nearly the same. I'd say that makes the story pretty closely related.

QuoteThis left little of the quality urbanism people now pay a premium for. And while other cities made similar mistakes, _____ has been slow to correct theirs, stymied by tight-fisted Tea Party politics. “We look at Dallas or Houston, with all the same challenges we have; they’ve managed to start changing their patterns of development and attract the creative-class younger folks who are looking for alternatives to the suburban lifestyle,” says Steve Schukraft, the _____ area’s representative to the Congress for the New Urbanism. When you’re wistfully pining for Houston’s urban virtues, things are not going well.

The blanks there are obviously Tampa, but could certainly apply to Jacksonville verbatim.

Quote“How do you address the lack of pedestrianism, the lack of civic space, the lack of shade, which is crucial for Florida urbanism?” she asks. “There’s some bike paths now, and landscaping, but to me it’s not integrative. I think it needs a larger rethinking of its infrastructure. It’s operating in more of an ’80s mentality.”

That's not bashing, that's framing a problem.

QuoteOn that front, the city has been talking up two marquee efforts. The first is the University of South Florida’s new Center for Advanced Medical Learning and Simulation. Billed as the largest facility in the world that allows med students to practice surgery without a patient, the $38 million facility, right downtown, hopes to draw 60,000 people to the city each year. The other is the Riverwalk, which will open up the Hillsborough River with 2.6 miles of green space. In June, the city received $11 million from the Obama administration to finish the project. Already, the Tampa Museum of Art has relocated there, alongside a new eight-acre park that stages live performances and events. Yelp reviewers have been gushing with gratitude for the desperately needed public space.

A debate could certainly be had on whether those developments are cost-effective or even work at all. But to dismiss these attempts out of hand because they're happening somewhere other than Jacksonville is being either short-sighted or willfully ignorant.

If you're content with the way things are in this city, why even bother with most of the threads?

^^^So a scathing thread title makes you feel more progressive? The story wasn't related to Jax, but you wanted it to be because of the negative factor.

So if I would've made this thread and said on the title "Tampa takes a hit with the GOP convention". Then you or one of your 22 other clones on the first post would've said the obligatory and very creative "Can you imagine if Jax had this convention, aw man they really would've regretted it; They will think that Tampa is a top flight city compared to Jax".

Make a damn post about the glacial melt in the Northern icecap, and blame that on Jax too.

Quote from: Ocklawaha on August 22, 2012, 10:13:54 PM
ANOTHER ARTICLE JUST IN: CAN YOU IMAGINE A JACKSONVILLE POLITICO SPEAKING UP FOR TRANSIT LIKE THIS?

well Alvin Brown did...when running for Mayor!

 I've been hoping my entire life that jax would develope into a modern
Forward thinking city it claimed to be when I was a kid...I've come to the
Conclusion that will probably not happen in my liftime..it seems we have held
true to its conservative religious biggot self....our councils still only represent a conservative
view on everything for fear of attck and loss of support or attack. Jacksonville is years behind
Tampa. Florida is conservative because its still full of rednecks who vote against their own interest.
So I'm stuck in a city stuck in time...welcome...its beautiful but its people can
be lost in time..

Quote from: I-10east on August 23, 2012, 02:30:30 AM
^^^So a scathing thread title makes you feel more progressive? The story wasn't related to Jax, but you wanted it to be because of the negative factor.

So if I would've made this thread and said on the title "Tampa takes a hit with the GOP convention". Then you or one of your 22 other clones on the first post would've said the obligatory and very creative "Can you imagine if Jax had this convention, aw man they really would've regretted it; They will think that Tampa is a top flight city compared to Jax".

Make a damn post about the glacial melt in the Northern icecap, and blame that on Jax too.

Wake up and smell the (Maxwell House) coffee I-10 East. A story or thread title is created simply to get as many eye's on it as possible. A title like 'Tampa sucks, but Jacksonville is sublime' would go nowhere.

Your refusal to comprehend that Jacksonville does indeed have many of these same problems is the same head in the sand attitude to prevents us from moving forward.

Having just returned home from OKC and Denver, I can tell you we are falling farther behind. Downtown OKC, is one vast construction site. The newly opened Devon tower dwarf's anything in our skyline. Green space, trails, transit, interactive fountains, playgrounds, tourist attractions, as well as attractions for locals are too numerous to count. The 'Deep Deuce' neighborhood, a horrid ghetto just 15 years ago, is now a sea of new buildings. And the MSA for OKC is right behind Jacksonville in numbers. I expect we'll be trading places with them in the next census if we don't start investing in our city.

We are not complaining because of some hatred for Jacksonville, we are trying to wave examples both good and bad in front of our officials and our citizens in the hope that, "they don't see things as they are and ask why, rather they see things that aren't and ask why not?' (JFK) Jacksonville has better 'bones' then Atlanta, New Orleans, Charlotte, or any other Florida City and there is simply no reason why we can't seize this moment in history to move to the next tier.

"Progress, far from consisting in change, depends on retentiveness. When change is absolute there remains no being to improve and no direction is set for possible improvement: and when experience is not retained, as among savages, infancy is perpetual. Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." (George Santayana) 

OCKLAWAHA

Having lived in both areas, Jacksonville is quickly becoming another Tampa - trafficwise. Blanding Blvd. in Clay county is a preview of things to come.

Rather than investing in mass transit, Tampa invested a bazillion dollars rebuilding I-275, the Veterans Expressway (more like parking lot), and the spaghetti of roads near the airport. Its not all Bob Buckhorn's fault. This mess was started under the Dick Grecko administration. Tampa's darling DICK.