(http://eujacksonville.com/pages/06-21-07/boomtown_last_supper.jpg)
Boomtown at 9th and Main.
What a long strange trip its been.
After all of the gallivanting nonsense surrounding our move from downtown, the last place that I would expect to have opened Boomtown would have been with Craig Van Horne, in the very building that served as our most aggressive competitor.
Its been interesting coming back to Springfield, which has managed to retain its nutty, eclectic propensity for both comedy and drama, but has really began to evolve into a neighborhood, complete with regulars, wild block parties, and a developing cast of characters who will no doubt be gossipped about 60 years from now.
After Boomtown left, Main Street pretty much dried up and died.
The Pearl opened, and does gangbuster business, but without any residual effect on the rest of the strip....I suspect because its not deep enough into the neighborhood.
Shantytown Pub also is new, or at least opened since we were here last. Ian and Marianne from The London Bridge opened it up, made it dog friendly (which was freaking brilliant, since big scary dog ownership is the one uniting tradition of life in springfield) and as a result hit a home run. Its pretty much the neighborhood hangout for the surprisingly young and hip new majority of springfielders.
Because of the emnity which has existed betwixt the Craig Van Horne Empire and the House of Boomtown, It has certainly been with a little satisfaction and schadenfreude that we have witnessed the serial failures of SO MANY different operations inside the 9th and Main environs---which is a bit hypocritical since we have actually liked most of the people who opened up the different (now defunct) attempts-----Nosh, the Justice women, Crush, Carlos and Cherrise, and a few others who have run aground on the rocky shores of 9th and Main.
Anyways, I guess I felt it was time to set aside the puerile competition and emnity with Van Horne if Main Street is ever to become a vibrant district.
So I scheduled a meeting with him, which he attended at the exhortations of both Lee Harvey, the noted artist, and Kevin Gay, the noted philanthropist and we decided to start afresh, both with each other and in how we would approach the neighborhood.
Within a week, Boomtown tentatively began moving into the space occupied by the restaurant.
(to be continued----have to go make a pasta alfredo and a raspberry steak)
Well hopefully these events are a thing of the past. We have an opportunity to bring Main back alive and the best way to make that happen is through clustering complementing businesses, allowing synergy to finally form.
So what's the next step? What's needed to get these spaces rented? Personally, I think the key to getting Main Street to take off is filling the retail spaces between 6th & 9th Streets. If we can jump start the heart, growth will easily spread outward.
QuoteA bike shop and record store are operating part time on 6th and Main
Bikes like my kind of bikes, or bikes like motor bikes? What kind of bikes to they sell...or are they a repair only?
Ok, so they're all fixies? I couldn't find any kind of website for them, but looked through the link you provided for the festival and it looks like a freakin blast!
One of the best alleycat races I saw was on a YouTube video in NY during early winter. It was set to, Welcome to the Jungle, by GNR and was absolutely amazing ;D
I didn't know there was a jax bike co-op either. I feel so disconnected :-[
Quote from: stephendare on January 25, 2008, 02:46:45 PMLake, do we have any street maps of main street lying around?
Here you go.
Downtown/Springfield
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v226/urbanjax7816/MainStreet-1.jpg)
Downtown/Springfield border up close
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v226/urbanjax7816/MainStreet-2.jpg)
Main Street (between 9th & 5th Streets)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v226/urbanjax7816/MainStreet-3.jpg)
Quote from: second_pancake on January 25, 2008, 02:46:54 PM
Ok, so they're all fixies? I couldn't find any kind of website for them, but looked through the link you provided for the festival and it looks like a freakin blast!
One of the best alleycat races I saw was on a YouTube video in NY during early winter. It was set to, Welcome to the Jungle, by GNR and was absolutely amazing ;D
I didn't know there was a jax bike co-op either. I feel so disconnected :-[
Hey Pancakes, this is the blog for the store http://deadtank.wordpress.com/ but no info on the bike shop except for the January 19th post. They also have what they call a Midnight Mass ride. Info is under weekly events on the right side.
Is the old Bakery up for re-lease? If Jim is paying his rent, I dont know if Mike can do anything with, or about that space until his lease is up.
Steven, I would be very careful of any sublet with Huntress. I was talking with Mike not too long ago and he said that it was in Jim's lease agreement that he CANNOT sublet that space. He can bring in investors to help HIM run a business but NO SUBLETTING. I won't even pretend to know how all of this stuff works but that was what Mike told me.
That space aside, nearly the entire block of Main between 6th & 7th is also vacant. Something visible in that stretch would be just as beneficial in pulling things together.
Last I heard, the owner was asking 800K for that building (down from 1.2 Mil). This was before the windows, so its probably back up to 1.2 Mil...
Anyway, They have been under considerable pressure from Code Enforcement, and may have put the windows in as a stop gap measure. I would be happily surprised to hear that they have any real plans.
Quote from: stephendare on January 28, 2008, 10:16:07 AM
I plan on going by the little building with the new windows installed later on today
see if i can find out what the story is with that.
What do people think about Jamba Juice?
Not much, I've never been in one. However, there is a location at Baymeadows and Philips. Are they interested in Springfield?
Thats not entirely correct. The Hogans Creek Project has never had funding. The program that is Hogans Creek falls under only gets about 50 million a year, nationwide, and projects that are already underway get preferential treatment.
The WRDA, the program which funds the aquatic renourishment program, and could change that 50million number, had not been reauthorized since 2000. In addition, a great chunk of the ACoE resources went to New Orleans after Katrina.
I believe that after the third Request, Corrine Brown was able to get 400K earmarked in the latest budget in order to get the project udner way. The first several years are all in planning, so dont expect to see anything happening before that. The Hogans Creek Greenway, however, which is unrelated and is fully funded throught the FDOT, should kick off construction sometime this year.
This is a write up from one of the many meetings from over a year ago that Doug V and I sat in on it talks about how the 206 program works.
QuoteThe City of Jacksonville, project sponsor, working with the District Office of the Army Corps of Engineers, has requested from the U.S. House of Representatives, Subcommittee on Energy and Water Appropriations, $200,000 in FY 2007 funding under section 206 of the Water Resources Development Act of 1996.
Section 206 is a Continuing Authorities Program (CAP) authority. This program grants standing authority to the Corps, subject to certain spending limits ($25 million nationally, and $5 million for any single project) to study and build water resource projects. A Preliminary Ecological Restoration Plan (PRP) for the Hogan’s Creek 206 project was completed in FY 2002 and established Federal interest in the project. Funding was allotted in the amount of $450,000 through FY2004 to initiate and continue the Ecosystem Restoration Report (ERR) which is the key decision document for the Corps. Subsequently requests were made in FY 2005 and 2006 to earmark funding to continue the project by developing a more detailed decision making document and complete the ERR. However, those requests were unsuccessful largely because Congress had to impose severe budgetary restrictions. This decision making document, planned by the Corps and budgeted at $200,000 for FY 2007, is called the Environmental Restoration Report (ERR). The ERR examines the whole feasibility of the ecological restoration project. It looks at various alternatives for restoring the Creek and the costs and benefits associated with those alternatives. It asks for and considers what alternatives the Mayor and local citizens favor through public involvement and citizen outreach. The Report will come to a conclusion in late FY 2007 selecting the alternative that is most technically feasible and most cost and restoration effective as viewed from the Federal standpoint. If local authorities favor a different alternative, called the “locally preferred planâ€, they have the option of selecting the “locally preferred plan†and paying any difference between the alternative picked by the Corps and the locally preferred plan.
Assuming the completed ERR report supports continued Federal interest and lays out the feasibility and need for the Creek*s ecological restoration, then in FY 2008 a request to fund earmark $400,000 to develop detailed plans and specifications will must be made by the Corp project sponsor to Congress. At the end of that year detailed plans will be in place to seek earmarked construction funding for the restoration project by the project sponsor. Currently the restoration project is estimated to cost around $5 million with 35% of those costs paid by the City sponsor.
To gain the needed Congressional support, the Mayor has earmarked and expressed his support of this project with Congresswoman Corrine Brown’s office and has asked for her support in seeking priority earmarked funding within the FY2007 House Subcommittee on Energy and Water Appropriations Report.
BTW, while the Army Core plan will help, it is by no means a full plan. It only addresses the aquatic health of the creek, it does not address industrial contamination in the creek, passive or active contamination in the parks, amenities, or historical preservation/restoration.
It also does not address the petroleum contamination from the Park View Inn Site, which JEA recently confirmed has contaminated areas around the Laura St reservoir as well as the creek basin in the vicinity of Confederate Park.
Quotethey are interested in getting into the downtown market actually.
Jamba Juice is looking for another expansion store, but the downtown real estate prices are an issue, as well as the parking issues, which affects their daytime crowd.
Do you have a contact with them? Main Street would seem like a viable market for them, if they don't want to deal with downtown's issues. What needs to be done to get them in the urban core?
QuoteA truly revived Hogan's Creek would unite Springfield with the Sports and Bay Street Entertainment District, just as a two way, lit Laura Street Corridor would unite the neighborhood with the Landing and the Museum District.
In a grand scheme, I'd agree. However, Hogans Creek is too large in length to spread our resources too thin (unless we're talking about cleaning it up). Short of the contamination issue, the best thing to do would be to focus on one section of the creek/parks and load it up with a mix of uses and amenities in it and along its borders. Right off the bat, to me that would be the Klutho, Confederate Park and the area between them.
Quote from: stephendare on January 28, 2008, 01:06:27 PM
I assume there are still brownsfield funds available for the cleanup.
Van Horne had to do the same thing at 9th and Main.
There should be brownfield funds available, as well as grant money available because the building is located in both an Empowerment and Enterprise zone. As a matter of fact, there's money available for nearly any type of project in Springfield. They key is just knowing where to get it.
Man...A jamba juice in springfield would be amazing...They have some amazing, healthy stuff!
Quote from: stephendare on January 28, 2008, 01:49:15 PM
Although it would be nice if robert got on the ball
ill call him and see whats up.
:D :D :D wink wink, nudge nudge know what I mean?
thats pretty funny Stephen.
Quote from: stephendare on January 28, 2008, 01:06:27 PM
I know that Van Winkel has been totally unsure whether or not there actually was as recently as 6 months ago, and had not commissioned the environmental to ascertain the truth.
The only person I have heard that has any uncertainty with that was Van Winkle. I have talked with people from DEP, Duval County Health Dept, and The Solid Waste Div (they deal with clean ups) They all admit, a large amount of soil was excavated when the hotel was built, but that the site is still contaminated. It is no longer active contamination, meaning its no longer being activly polluted, but there is a large blob of oil contamination still there, and migrating further downhill.
Its pretty deep down, I believe at the bedrock level, but it needs to at the very least be isolated before anyone will mark it off as having been dealt with.
Respess Grimes building?
I understand there are testing wells, but I can not attest to that, as I have not seen them.
Which building is that?
The issue with the Park View site is it was the location of a Coal Gasification Plant for the better park of 70 years. (1870's-1940's) Its a know problem site to all of the local agencies, and Jacksonville has already started pricing the clean up of the creek and park,(around 12 mill, last I heard) the problem is, they dont want to do it without addressing the source site first.
Stephen did you check up on the building getting new storefronts near 5th & Main?
When do you anticipate having that space up and running?
I've always heard, through sources in the neighborhood that the grounds were contaminated. Interesting, and thanks for your input, Stephen....it would be great to see this place developed! It's an ideal location and there's so many options that could and should be explored for it.
So the contamination is just an urban legend?
I'm sure there's two sides to the story, so I'm hoping this thread won't turn out to be a slugfest. Springfield has been good to me and several others. I don't know the real story behind the Springfield fallout (and I don't really want to know), but I believe the neighborhood has turned the corner. There are a lot of good things in the works right now. At Thursday's SAMBA meeting, Mack mentioned that the guys at Moon River Pizza are close to opening in the old Main Street Bakery space. Three Layers is doing great business, the Main Street project is progressing well and Cesery's Lofts on Main should be getting underway soon. Ian, Joey, Dan and Tony are also teaming together to pull of a major music festival on Main Street this August. If successful, that event should bring even more visibility to the potential that Main Street has to become a vibrant urban commercial district once again.
With your last post, I assume Springfield is not in Boomtown's future. So what's your next move? Are you out of the restaurant business or do you have another neighborhood/commercial strip that you're targeting?
Quote from: stephendare on April 12, 2008, 10:50:06 PM
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,356.0.html
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/images/hemming_park/closed_by_six/dzhstz2_19c29jdm.jpg)
agreed...excellent planning... :'(
at least it gives the homeless a nice quiet place to sleep... :P
Quote from: stephendare on April 12, 2008, 10:50:06 PM
Well, hopefully another pizza place and a music festival are all that main street needs, Lake.
That would be awesome, although it took more than that in Five Points.
On the other hand, Maxx's Pizza Factory, the several home tours, the Springfield Souk, and three functioning coffeehouses werent enough the first time. The reality is that Main Street needs a whole lot more than that, just as we did in Five Points, and as detailed in the earlier parts of this thread. Neighborhoods need more than just positivity. They need action in a series of steps. Steps which have yet to be taken in the neighborhood.
I only listed a few positive things happening in the community. However, there are certainly more things going on, so its debatable to state that the steps that need to be made aren't in the process of happening. Based on the revitalization of similar neighborhoods in other cities, I'd say Springfield has past the point of no return. This does not mean there aren't still obstacles and issues to address (ex. leasing rates on Main, etc.), but its not as bad as you made it out to seem in the posts above.
QuoteI will probably shift career path totally again. Im in my 40s now, and I want to do something much larger than what I have attempted before. Jacksonville is a city that wallows in unrealized potential, there is just so much that NEEDS to be done.
No doubt, there are several issues that need to be addressed for us to see Jacksonville meet its potential. I'm sure whatever you attempt to focus on can help in finding a solution to one of these many issues.
QuoteI havent decided what I will do vis a vis Main Street. Im pretty much at a moment of great indecision.
Between the two boards, this one and metjax.com We have done a pretty brilliant job of documenting the real life issues of small businesses in an urban core. Its something that I wish we had even been able to do in Five Points.
So many of the details are opaque to people standing on the outside. So many reasons why a place opens or closes, or what motivates and sustains any private enterprise.
For downtown and Springfield, each of these turning points has been covered and discussed, and now there is an accurate record of predictions and speculations.
Its one of the reasons I am posting.
For example. Remember this thread and the set of predictions during this time of indecisions and changes to the business landscape?
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,356.0.html
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/images/hemming_park/closed_by_six/dzhstz2_19c29jdm.jpg)
and here we are 9 months later, and this was exactly the outcome.
In fact, it led to this storyline on our site: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,2006.0.html
With a "government center" idea in place by the city, its illogical on our part to believe that things can completely turn around for Hemming in a series of nine months. However, many of the ideas we pushed since the creation of Metro Jacksonville and MetJax have been incorporated into the City's Action Plan. If we had kept our mouths shut, there's a strong possibility that downtown would be worse off today.
QuoteWith the recession and the fragility of the Main Street Anchors in Springfield, much much more is going to have to happen over there. In order for it to succeed. The Landlord Pirates were one major obstacle, the seriously self destructive internal politics of the neighborhood are the next ones that will have to be handled if anything is going to succeed over there long term.
I believe two things need to happen in Springfield:
a.) a higher priority of urban oriented multifamily housing. A vibrant urban district can't live with expensive single family homes only.
b.) convince Main Street land/building owners to reduce rates to get the buildings filled with local establishments, as opposed to chasing chains like Publix and Starbucks.
If the issues above can be addressed, I believe a lot of the problems will come down like a game of dominos.
QuoteThis time around there are already town centers with the appropriate design and layout to compete with the recession flimsy Suburbs located between the population centers and Springfield....except for the Northside, which the neighborhood has made quite clear is not its preferred customer base.
The key is the neighborhood does not control what ultimately happens on Main. If this was the case, a lot of the businesses there today would be elsewhere. Main's customer base is more dependent on the amount of traffic using the road and lease rates. The economy should help Springfield by lowering the lease rates to more affordable conditions.
QuoteSpringfield's current plan is riding on the belief that all of the alternative kids are getting priced out of Riverside and are naturally being driven to the 'cheaper' rents of the neighborhood. They see the success of places like the Pearl and Shantytown and think they can enlarge that market.
But the successes of those two businesses are totally reliant on the enormous personal popularity and longtime networking of the owners. Christy and Ian are the reasons those places work, and only because Ian is willing to make less doing something he likes to do.
Sitting on the SAMBA board, I don't think the neighborhood has a plan in place either way. Main's success will be determined by the ability of the area to pull in additional business owners like Ian and Christy, as well as land owners like Hionedes offering the properties at cheaper rates. There's no other strip in town with the large amount of bones already in place like Main.
QuoteHowever, the relative cheapness of the rents in Springfield is about to experience a flip flop as the landlords in Five Points are forced to drop their prices in order to retain tenants, removing the only incentive that Springfield has.
I think we'll see that it won't be an either or situation. There's a market for all of our urban commercial districts to come back to life. Just take a look at Murray Hill, that strip is filling out nicely and its not at the expense of Five Points, Avondale or San Marco.
QuoteFinally, as we discussed in our meeting the other night, the neighborhood's population will support about 20 restaurants. There are about 20 restaurants now, so Springfields only real option is trading out new restuarants for old ones. Either that or relying on business from outside of the neighborhood.
This must have been when I left the meeting for an hour or so. If I was there I would have mentioned that Main has the ability to pull "outsiders" into the area. In addition, there's the potential to draw from downtown's employment base, FCCJ, Shands and Swisher. For example, Jim Brown's BBQ attracts customers who live in neighborhoods outside of Springfield (I know because I'm one of those customers). The same goes for Carl's. If it has a good business model and product, it should be able to become a destination on its own.
QuoteMeanwhile, the politics of interpersonal destruction that define Springfield's harder edge is the same that stunted Five Points development.
When we started out in Five Points we already had a connected business base of about 20-25 establishments.
Springfield only has four.
I could go further into detail, but this is what I am talking about.
My advice would be to avoid neighborhood politics and stick to the business part of things. Know you customer base, know your zoning regulations, serve a good product and collect the cash. That's what they do in the chicken district and Popeye's, KFC and the Chicken Koop are all making out quite well.
Its smart to appeal to the dominant population of the local market. Those places know their market and serve them well. There's no reason they can't be a part of a vibrant Main Street scene. The more diverse, the better, imo.
I didn't intend to alter your assessment. If you feel Main/Springfield/Downtown or whatever neighborhood isn't the place for you, then by all means don't invest in that particular area. However, that does not mean the neighborhood and its commercial districts aren't moving forward.
That would be absolutely ideal, if moon river pizza opened up at the old bakery!
It sounds like we have two different things/visions in mind. It could be as simple as you envisioning a Five Points II and me envisioning a successful commercial district that does not take on a certain type of dominate theme or subculture, other than being urban and pedestrian friendly.
What is the retail strategy you don't agree with? I don't think there is a real one in place, at this point, which opens things up for creativity and strong willed entrepreneurs who want to be a part of the area. The area has its challenges (mainly leasing rates and conditions of commercial buildings, imo) but nothing that can't or hasn't been overcome before.
Quote from: stephendare on April 13, 2008, 01:10:26 PM
There arent any professional commercial real estate dealers on the main strip.
Bisette will be the first person to tell you that he is a residential guy and doesnt know about commercial real estate.
Mack Bisette isn't in charge of commercial development on Main. Its a free market for anyone who wants to purchase property for their business or vision (ex. Cesery, Urban Worx).
QuoteCraig is a walking, breathing nightmare for the community of springfield and has personally done more to set the neighborhood back than 10 of the thirty years of neglect and crime....and he pretty much owns 8th street.
The Craig issue will eventually work its self out, but there are properties out there that can be taken advantage of, not owned by CVH.
QuoteHionides, who controls main street, is willing to maintain the buildings that he purchased and would work with any viable plan out there, but is still busy absorbing the rest of his acquisitions.
Sounds like there's potential here. This is good news, imo.
QuoteSo the potential for new retail and commercial development is very very limited.
There are only a couple of strategies that I see that could make it work out there, and NONE OF THEM are on the table.
Again, I don't know if you need a "strategy" unless you want it to develop in a certain type of themed format with certain types of businesses. This the area where the jury is still out. There seems to be two sides to me. One, that wants national chains and new buildings and the other who wants a local dominated commercial district that reuses existing buildings. However, I'd like to hear about the retail strategies you have in mind.
Quote from: stephendare on April 13, 2008, 01:40:38 PM
QuoteWhat is the retail strategy you don't agree with? I don't think there is a real one in place, at this point, which opens things up for creativity and strong willed entrepreneurs who want to be a part of the area. The area has its challenges (mainly leasing rates and conditions of commercial buildings, imo) but nothing that can't or hasn't been overcome before.
There isnt one.
There is a half assed discussion going around that appealing to the 'younger' crowds is the direction the neighborhood needs to go. Thats it.
Now this discussion, like any number of discussions over the years isnt enough to translate into a reality that works.
Don't you have to start somewhere? This sounds like the perfect place for Metro Jacksonville. There's an opportunity to impact from the beginning. In the meantime, dedicated business owners like Ian and Carl's will find a way to perfect their product into a successful one. As time goes on, establishments like these will become the bookends of a commercial district.
QuoteFor example, we pursued a strategy of arts based development and providing cheap space to artists, who were willing to deal with the sub prime conditions of the properties as well as improving them as they went along.
There were more than a hundred new artists introduced to the neighborhood. Over the next few months half of them had managed to offend and then be offended by neighborhood politics.
There were scenes and boycotts over artwork displayed at Henrietta's. General distaste for the gay nature of one of the plays at Boomtown, people didnt like the politics of Lisa Neary, SPAR refused to honor a contract with the Massettes for a film series after they had already taken on all the costs of the series and were doing it basically at cost for the neighborhood. No one would frequent Pickett Gallery or Diallos because they were black business. And the shops that depended on neighborhood support suffered tremendously.
Then after only a year of being there for cheap rent, the artists found that their rent doubled or tripled and they were forced out of the neighborhood. The rents went up to the market rates of avondale and san jose, and the commercial rates were literally laughable.
Now the presence of the artists and the targeting of the neighborhood for arts development had brought publicity that if it had been paid for would have easily reached into the million dollars mark over the four years it took for neighbourhood politics and speculators to nearly kill the artist community that settled there.
So the mere conversation of how to do it isnt enough, there are concrete steps that you have to follow.
Additionally, when we launched the artists community thing, the rents were on the rise in Five Points, it took the developers over there by surprise.
They decided on a strategy of upscaling, and replacing the funky bohemian spaces with yuppie bait.
That worked, but not in the five points district proper. It centered around the Publix.
Now Five Points is trying to work out a strategy to prop up its tenancy base and it has returned to the community that created it. Over the past few months, the cool little shops and galleries that used to open in Springfield have been popping up all over Riverside again.
The economic downturn is going to make rents more reasonable and the idea of opening a shop where there are already known customers even more attractive.
Someplace you don't have to drive a long distance to get to.
So simply relying on 'the younger crowd' to initiate change and development is probably not going to be enough to create the settings necessary to drive progress.
Areas have very cheap rent for many years before they simply pop up as the 'hot district'. Cheap rents arent enough.
I guess this is where we're differing. Main Street is a major highway through town, similar to a Southside Blvd or Blanding. The amount of through traffic presents a stronger opportunity to pull from a customer base of those who live outside of the historic district's boundaries. This makes Main a different animal from Five Points, Avondale or Murray Hill. When I mention Main, I also think of more than just the artifical historic district boundaries. Everything north of 14th Street is just as important.
All I want is for "Main" to be a viable urban commercial district. It doesn't have to be the next arts scene, Five Points or Riverside. Its future has not been defined yet and I don't think anyone person should attempt to do so. It could cater to the Northside for all I care......as long as its vibrant and maintains its urban streetscape. There's room for the young, arts related, yuppies, emptynesters and more. The physical built environment alone will make it an unique place among Jacksonville's commercial districts.
When it gets down to this, I don't think the neighborhood politics of SPAR or anyone else is powerful enough to keep successful businesses that can pull from an assortment of urban neighborhoods out.
Quote from: stephendare on April 13, 2008, 01:45:23 PM
QuoteThe Craig issue will eventually work its self out, but there are properties out there that can be taken advantage of, not owned by CVH.
Find a couple of buildings on 8th street that are adjacent to each other that he doesnt own....
He has liquidated every business of every property he has ever rented to.
So you can remove 8th Street from your list of potential incubator areas.
Pretty much all of it.
He does not appear to own anything on 8th, East of Market. Its interesting that this is also the area of 8th with the most urban existing building fabric still in place.
QuoteAnd of course you need a strategy.
These things don't really happen by themselves.
What things? Themed business/entertainment districts or commercial districts in general?
Quote"Communities of Place"
Can you further define and break down into common man's terms, so all will have a better understanding of your concerns?
Quote from: stephendare on April 13, 2008, 02:36:16 PM
QuoteAll I want is for "Main" to be a viable urban commercial district. It doesn't have to be the next arts scene, Five Points or Riverside. Its future has not been defined yet and I don't think anyone person should attempt to do so. It could cater to the Northside for all I care......as long as its vibrant and maintains its urban streetscape. There's room for the young, arts related, yuppies, emptynesters and more. The physical built environment alone will make it an unique place among Jacksonville's commercial districts.
When it gets down to this, I don't think the neighborhood politics of SPAR or anyone else is powerful enough to keep successful businesses that can pull from an assortment of urban neighborhoods out.
We agree on the first part, but disagree on your second thesis.
Development along Main, in almost all likely scenarios, will have to start where the greatest infrastructural presence is, in order to provide the stabilizing forces that go into a district. That means the side closest to Downtown, where there is a parks system, school, masonic lodge and a few museums in place.
This is the gateway. New people coming into the area pass through this area first and determine whether or not they will venture further.
I believe the reverse is happening. The new gateway appears to be from the North. I say this because the traffic count is higher in this area and its the part of Main that continues to catch the eye of new businesses. This is probably the effect of years of closing off streets making it a challenge to move between downtown and Springfield. It also doesn't help that half of the blocks between 1st and 4th Streets were leveled for car lots a few decades ago.
QuoteThis same dynamic is why Five Points was so vitally important to Riverside. If Five Points improved or became a viable Community of Place, then people would venture further into the neighborhood with money and investment.
Springfield appears to be the opposite of Five Points. People have already ventured into the neighborhoods with money and investments. Main is an actual highway. Five Points was a block long commercial strip. Unless, we focus on a certain part of Main (for example the 6th to 8th Streets), that would make for a better comparison. Anything other than that and you then begin to deal with two completely different animals.
QuoteSan Marco is a reverse example of this process. Its success drew from the immediate neighborhood, but more importantly from its Sphere of Influence--that marketing term which means the natural demographics of uninterrupted customer base with no similar and competing concept. Its the formula that Walmart uses when deciding store placements. Development fueled by San Marco's sphere of influence which extended all the way from mandarin, hugely driven by the proximity of the exclusive private schools in the area. Bishop Kinny, Episcopal, and Bolles. All of those schools are within short distance of the little square and on any given afternoon for the past 20 years, at 3 oclock, you can see scores of their student bodies hanging around in the square, many of whom are awaiting parents.
But San Marco also started with infrastuctural advantages. Library, Churches, Schools, Riverfront, just slightly more than Springfield has at present.
San Marco has the benefit of money never leaving the community and Riverside does to, to a certain degee. Its commercial core is also pales in comparison with Main Street. Also, neither of these communities turned into the red headed stepchild of urban Jacksonville. Thus, it could be said that the redevelopment of these districts were much easier to ultimately pull off.
QuoteThe point is that development gathered its strength in the sphere of influence SOUTH of San Marco, reached critical mass and then began pushing toward downtown.
The massive developments of the Riverwalk, River City Brewing Company, Childrens Museum and Hospitals had almost nothing to do with the creation of the Community of Place that is only now beginning to extend towards downtown. Those things were all there for 20 years or more before development from San Marco began to create infill.
So San Marco would be a great example of the reverse style of the development that Springfield has locked itself into. Also the reverse of what happened in Riverside.
The Southbank appears to be pushing south to merge with San Marco along Kings/Hendricks, while San Marco seems to be pushing northward along San Marco Blvd. Nevertheless, I believe this is a completely different animal from Main Street. Springfield is only one of the players along Main. Others are New Springfield, Brentwood and Downtown for example. The physical set up, length, history and location of Main present a set of challenges that the other neighborhoods never had to overcome.
Quote from: stephendare on April 13, 2008, 02:54:00 PM
Springfield is not dense enough to rely on its population to create anything other than a very small community of place. It sees itself along the same lines as any of the large communities of place above listed, and would like to see the commercial strip develop along the same lines as those places.
Its not really a question of corporate vs Mom and Pop, this is a conversation that a couple of the more knuckleheaded people seem to be caught in on both sides of the equation, but rather an economy of scale.
It only has a couple of options in order to acheive its objectives. Either throw down its bucket in its natural sphere of influence: a MASSIVE, culturally and racially diverse area that extends through the northside and on up through south Georgia,
or
Compete directly with the already existing Communities of Place that are already drawing from their own distinctive spheres of influence.
Option A also has the potential to be a "community of place" and distinctive in its own right. There's, no strong reason to compete with other urban districts for cultural dominance. This is a metropolitan area of over 1.3 million people. There's enough to go around to the point that we can have multiple successful urban commercial districts.
QuoteFive Points succeeded because due to the last recession, it could extend its natural sphere all the way to orange park and beyond....it wasnt the Riversiders who supported that District.
In either strategy, there isnt anyone in the current configuration with the experience or skill set to do either successfully.
This is a huge assumption to make. Nothing happens overnight, so I guess time will ultimately tell.
QuoteOur strategy with the arts was to create a distinct and recognizeable Community of Interest whose appeal was Interest-based, and could therefore sift a sphere of influence from all directions instead of merely a geographically based sphere.
Cool, could you further define your idea of "community of place".
The definition of what you believe the Springfield community does not have.
Quote from: stephendare on April 13, 2008, 03:18:21 PM
QuoteThis is a huge assumption to make. Nothing happens overnight, so I guess time will ultimately tell.
Its really just an observation of fact, Lake. I know almost every single person in the area involved in the conversation. None of these things are even ideas they are acquainted with. And again, the proof is in the pudding. I already have one go round in this exact environment.
Using these ideas and assumptions, the business that we created succeeded. We watched a deplorably high number of other businesses, several of them with a more substantial investment and definitely with greater neighborhood support fail.
I believe the animal of Springfield is quite different from Five Points, based on many of the factors I mentioned above. Its quite conceivable that what worked in Five Points will not work in Springfield. This is no different from our argument with JTA that every commuter rail system is unique and most be designed to fit the region its intended to serve.
QuoteQuoteCool, could you further define your idea of "community of place".
How do you mean? The definition, or more of a detailed hypothetical example?
Or do you mean Community of Interest?
I guess the defination, why Sringfield does not have it in your opinion and if you believe it will ever have it?
1. How many of these businesses failed because of:
A. City Facade Grants
B. Poor business plan/product
C. Lack of Community Support
D. Poor Landlords (ex. 9th & Main)
E. In place before their time (ex. like Eclate on Bay Street)
2. How many are still in existance today?
Also, how does this list stack up with a list of businesses operating within three blocks of Main today?
I'm not sold that Springfield is the reason many of these places failed, because others, such as the Pearl, Shantytown and Carl's have seemed to succeed in many of the same locations. Plus new businesses such as Three Layers and Jim Browns are off to a good start. It can also be said, that many of these early business owners learned from their mistakes making their chances to succeed at a second project much higher than the first.
However, if neighborhood politics are killing businesses, then why not target an area of Main, outside of the historic district, such as the stretch of Main between the railroad tracks and 21st Street? This stretch alone, has more built infrastructure in place than Five Points did in the early 1990s.
dear God help us.
Sometimes its not complicated why certain places develop in a certain pattern. Sometimes these things have nothing to do with "new urbanist" (I hate when this concept is used in existing urban areas) principals. Here's short answers to why these certain areas did not develop like San Marco:
QuoteBut what makes San Marco any different from say, Blanding Boulevard and the San Juan area, which also has these components in place?
Traffic. Blanding and San Juan carry a much heavier traffic load in a less dense area of town. Nevertheless, the buildings are filled with businesses.
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-3812-p1080695.JPG)
see Lake Shore photos here: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/730/117/
QuoteOr Dennis Street by brooklyn?
Dennis Street is an industrial park off the beaten path. Although centrally located, its too disconnected, which is why I continue to state its better off being an area for social services.
QuoteOr the Woodstock district over by Beaver and McDuff?
Demographics, low income levels and declining population base.
Quote from: stephendare on April 13, 2008, 06:07:45 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on April 13, 2008, 04:04:41 PM
I'm not sold that Springfield is the reason many of these places failed, because others, such as the Pearl, Shantytown and Carl's have seemed to succeed in many of the same locations. Plus new businesses such as Three Layers and Jim Browns are off to a good start. It can also be said, that many of these early business owners learned from their mistakes making their chances to succeed at a second project much higher than the first.
However, if neighborhood politics are killing businesses, then why not target an area of Main, outside of the historic district, such as the stretch of Main between the railroad tracks and 21st Street? This stretch alone, has more built infrastructure in place than Five Points did in the early 1990s.
So whats the theory? Just a freak set of coincidences? Although it isnt just neighborhood politics, the neighborhood politics removes the will for the businesses to stay positive and creatively solve obstacles and soaks up too much time that would be better spent.
For some, maybe. But for others, not so much. For me, neighborhood politics gave me the will to attempt to develop a project or two on my own, as well as join SAMBA. Pretty much the same situation with downtown that led to the creation of this site. To me, some businesses succeed and some fail. There's no difference between Springfield and the suburbs in that regards. Blaming Springfield's residents for a failed business plan seems like a copout, imo.
QuotePearl brought an already thriving business and placed it in a location already being successfully used by an otherwise identical business (TSI, which relocated downtown)
Earlier, you painted TSI as one of the failing businesses, here you mention that it thrived at the Springfield location until it was bought out by the Pearl, which now continues to thrive in the same location. Like Jim Browns BBQ, the Pearl has a business plan that pulls from the neighborhood and surrounding areas of town. This may be the key to success in Springfield, as opposed to solely relying on a limited population base thats still too diverse for some specific "trendy-type" businesses.
QuoteThree layers is an awesome business that exactly fills one of the needs of the neighborhood. But it also has special circumstances that pull it outside of the discussion of Main Street or a Community of Place forming there. The rent on the space is minimal because the building is also the owner's home as well as the office for their second location.
The cost demands of the space are minimal because it isnt a restaurant, but a coffee/bakery, and finally there is no indication that Three Layers will successfully draw a regular clientele from outside the neighborhood. (I personally think they will, they have the right mindset for it)
The Three Layers situation is one that comes from business owners that believe in the community and have the will to be creative to be a part of it. Although they target a niche market, they do it well with minimal overhead.
QuoteAnd Jim Brown's BarBQ Place is another example of why Im certain of my assessment.
Many Springfielders eat there, but the springfielder set is NOT the majority of the clientele. In fact you can see the effect of appealing to the sphere of influence right there at the 9th and Main divide.
It sounds like Jim Brown's has the right business plan. They serve a product that appeals to all segments of the local population, both the nearby residents and those that live outside of the area. Sort of like Popeye's, Krystal, Burger King, Subway and KFC on Main Street. These are national chains that continue to succeed in Springfield but could not in downtown (excluding Subway, which has limited hours downtown). Such a business plan would put you above neighborhood politics, boycotts or snubbings.
QuoteThree corners of the intersection caters to the natural geographic sphere of influence, one doesnt.
It seems that 9th & Main's turn over rate has more to do with CVH then the failure of businesses operating there. Even you admit you did pretty good the month or so, you were there.
QuoteNow the more interesting question is why not concentrate the renovations past the historic district.
Because the same dynamic is in place further along Main Street. Just from a different group of people.
The hostility isnt in the form of boycott's, property inspections and snubbings, its in the form of break ins, vandalism and the like.
I wasn't here when Five Points took off, but I was in Central Florida when Ybor did. What you describe, sounds like Ybor in the early 1990s. That section of North Main is in much better condition socially, than Ybor was when it started to come back to life.
Quote from: stephendare on April 13, 2008, 06:58:58 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on April 13, 2008, 06:52:22 PM
Sometimes its not complicated why certain places develop in a certain pattern. Sometimes these things have nothing to do with "new urbanist" (I hate when this concept is used in existing urban areas) principals. Here's short answers to why these certain areas did not develop like San Marco:
QuoteBut what makes San Marco any different from say, Blanding Boulevard and the San Juan area, which also has these components in place?
Traffic. Blanding and San Juan carry a much heavier traffic load in a less dense area of town. Nevertheless, the buildings are filled with businesses.
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-3812-p1080695.JPG)
see Lake Shore photos here: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/730/117/
QuoteOr Dennis Street by brooklyn?
Dennis Street is an industrial park off the beaten path. Although centrally located, its too disconnected, which is why I continue to state its better off being an area for social services.
QuoteOr the Woodstock district over by Beaver and McDuff?
Demographics, low income levels and declining population base.
Exactly right Lake. Which is why low rents are not the key factor to creating Communities of Place.
Of course an urban engineer could easily fix these problems by installing alternate traffic routes, or traffic calming obstacles, and a person acquainted with the dynamics of a Community of Interest could easily transform the Woodstock area by carefully choosing the interest base and implementing a cluster based development scheme.
I never said low rents were the only issue in bringing a commercial district back to life, but they are an important one. I'm still confusd about your view of what a "community of place" actually is, but I believe Springfield is a community that already has a sense of place. It just hasn't taken over the commercial district yet, because the leasing rates and building conditions make it difficult for start up businesses to move in.
Quote from: stephendare on April 13, 2008, 07:04:26 PM
QuoteI hate when this concept is used in existing urban areas
btw, so do I, but its now the fastest way to convey the set of principles. Most people simply are not acquainted at all with the works of Jane Jacobs that provided the first framework for these ideas.
I believe you're the first person I ever met who equates "new urbanism" with pre-built urbanism. The Amelia Parks, Celebrations, Tapestry Parks and Seasides are communities designed with new urbanist principles. When these things happen in the core, they're simply urban infill.
QuoteKeep in mind that the Springfielders have a vision of themselves and the neighborhood.
What's the vision? I don't believe there is one all certain parties have their own. The community is too diverse agree to a vision of specific uses/users along Main. Some would like a Publix, but they aren't coming regardless of how many studies the neighborhood does because the demographic numbers simply aren't there. What you'll eventually see is something like a local neighborhood market spring up. Nevertheless, there's no organized plan in place to go either way at this point.
QuotePlus none of these concepts are even involved in their conversation, and even if you tried all day long, Lake, you couldnt convince them that any of it was important. Thats why I don't mind having this stuff online. They just don't have the mindset to pay any attention to it.
But these ideas were constantly our guiding principles when we were there. When we left, there wasnt anyone behind to keep the ox in line.
I just don't think you can paint a community as diverse as Springfield with over 6,000 residents with one broad stroke. To do that you're placing the "triclops i" , "Lunicans" and "Zoos" of Springfield with those who have no vision. I wish you would have attended the last SAMBA meeting at Shantytown. The community has all the potential in the world, but the only way it will reach that level is by people who have the will to lead the others to the light.
Quote from: stephendare on April 13, 2008, 07:31:13 PM
QuoteI believe you're the first person I ever met who equates "new urbanism" with pre-built urbanism. The Amelia Parks, Celebrations, Tapestry Parks and Seasides are communities designed with new urbanist principles. When these things happen in the core, they're simply urban infill.
'urban infill' doesnt take in the set of ideas that define New Urbanism.
And you havent ever had this conversation with anyone before either. Its just verbal shorthand.
I have had conversations about New Urbanism throughout the years during college and in the profession. I've also worked on a few projects where we've applied New Urbanist theories in the design process. I think you're butchering the terminology. Its not a big deal to me, but it may confuse those who can't tell the difference between the two.
Quote from: stephendare on April 13, 2008, 07:39:15 PMAnd Lake, the thing that makes a Community of Place is not the layout but the simultaneous nature of all the interactions between the five elements of design and use.
I agree. However, depending on how you define "Community of Place", it can be much larger than retail districts. Good debate though. I'll have to hop in later. I need to get some front page articles in line just in case they're needed after I leave town on Wednesday.
perhaps instant messages would be best between you two
Quote from: stephendare on April 13, 2008, 07:31:13 PM
QuoteI believe you're the first person I ever met who equates "new urbanism" with pre-built urbanism. The Amelia Parks, Celebrations, Tapestry Parks and Seasides are communities designed with new urbanist principles. When these things happen in the core, they're simply urban infill.
'urban infill' doesnt take in the set of ideas that define New Urbanism.
And you havent ever had this conversation with anyone before either. Its just verbal shorthand.
sorry to weigh in on this so late, but you're both right....new urbanist principles when applied in existing urban areas are infill or redevelopment....but in order to make their movement look better, the new urbanists take credit for infill now as well
check www.cnu.org for more.
Stephen: The solution for you is clear. Buy your own building. Live in one part of it and operate a business in the other part of it. This avoids the landlord trap and saves money too. There are several suitable properties for sale on Main Street or East 8th Street.
There's a few properties for sale between 7th & 6th Streets for sale. There's also a couple on East 8th available that have some decent pricing for the amount of square footage offered. The same goes for several of the warehouses in the warehouse district. They maybe larger than what you need, but the creative aspect is that you could rent/lease space to businesses that follow along the lines of your vision. Your old lot on the corner of 8th & Hubbard is also available. If you're willing to get off the main streets, there's a load of little buildings available throughout the neighborhood. The key things to remember is
A. Just because a sign isn't on a property, does not mean it isn't for sale.
B. The asking price may be one thing, but it does not mean the land/building owner won't settle for less.
the area is not sabotaging itself. i would say there is more "progressing" community spirit in Springfield than anywhere else in the city. businesses fail (and move and fail and move and fail and move and fail and move again) all the time in all neighborhoods and parts of the city.
i've always been one to say that my success or failure is NOT dependent on anyone except me and my efforts. i refuse to place the blame on someone else. if my business fails, it is because i did not make good management decisions / business moves or i did not put out the right product for the right audience (still, a failed business decision on my part).
if i were to sit around and blame everyone/everything under the sky it just would not be very grown-up of me.
QuoteIts really a question of whether or not the area can get its act together and stop sabotaging itself.
I think we stretched this out enough yesterday. I still don't agree and we'll have to argee to disagree on this, but my opinion remains that there's enough successful businesses operating in Springfield to suggest that the neighborhood is not responsible for keeping Boomtown out, if they really want to be there. However, whatever business comes in needs to have a sound business plan that can pull that has the ability to attract those who live outside of the historic district's boundaries as well, unless they can survive with low overhead.
Sir, i prefer to remain quiet. ;)
You have not heard about me because I have not experienced failure yet. If I had, you would most certainly know, as protocol would dictate that I be all over this discussion forum and every other website imaginable crying about it, suing others and blaming everyone else for sabotaging me.
PS - Where is Springfield anyway and who on earth is Suzie Wiles?
Yes, it is a blatant error to equate success only with the accumulation of dollar bills and/or recognition by one's fellow man.
P.S. - With all due respect, I think Savannah, GA is the most gossipy town of the south.
Like ZZ Top...
Anyone need a beer? ;D
Quote from: stephendare on April 14, 2008, 03:26:04 PM
btw. the Project for Public Spaces is an absolutely amazing resource that I ran across today.
It gives a whole lot of background and support to the ideas represented in this thread.
They have a very vigorous missionary program, and an awesome website: http://www.pps.org/squares/
Lake actually drew from this site some months ago when he put together an analysis piece for the Pocket Park
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/669
this is called a "bump"
Quote from: stephendare on April 14, 2008, 11:27:21 AM
Lol. Lake, I bet no one on Main Street is more intimately aware of whats available or the prices involved than I am.
Its really a question of whether or not the area can get its act together and stop sabotaging itself.
So, will you be making an offer on a commercial building then?
What about the Davis Building between 8th & 7th or the old Boomtown location? What about the brick building for sale on the corner of 8th & Walnut? What about the vacant commercial buildings at Walnut & 7th, Walnut & 3rd or Walnut near the old Cafe Muse spot that was torn down?
How about the warehouse district or one of the small commercial buildings on the corner of 5th & Liberty or 6th & Market?
Why not buy your old lot back on 8th & Hubbard and build new? Heck, if you wanted to build your own spot, I'd even be willing to discuss selling some of my land. Its probably cheaper and better off in the long run then throwing a bunch of money to update a building that someone else owns.
Other than Walnut and Market, the majority of the buildings/lots are in commercial areas, just like the four buildings listed earlier.
The commercial building at Walnut and 8th is perfect except that it is not on Main. There is also off street parking in the rear of the building and plenty of on street parking available (although the neighbors might not be too happy) along Walnut. I considered buying it myself and turning the upstairs into apartments with the ground floor being leased out to suitable tenants. Perhaps Boomtown could be my tenant. ;)
The Walnut and 8th building sets up perfectly for Stephen's vision of community of place. It has multiple storefronts with ample parking on the streets and in the rear, plus alley access. Stephen could arrange his own community of place with Boomtown as the anchor and sublease spaces to complementing businesses creating his own funky unique district. He could be his own CVH and fuel the redevelopment of a three block section of 8th, leading into Main.
It is one large 2 story brick building with a one story wing of 2 or 3 storefronts on its west side. As I recall, it is a great bargain although it needs significant work inside and out.
BTW, you could not grow up to be like me, but you could grow up to be a tenant one day. ;D
QuoteThe Walnut and 8th building sets up perfectly for Stephen's vision of community of place. It has multiple storefronts with ample parking on the streets and in the rear, plus alley access. Stephen could arrange his own community of place with Boomtown as the anchor and sublease spaces to complementing businesses creating his own funky unique district. He could be his own CVH and fuel the redevelopment of a three block section of 8th, leading into Main.
Oh please please please let something move onto this corner besides the convenience store that caters to the temp labor company that refuses to maintain or patrol the "parking lot" on the corner yet hassles people who park there. I'd love to see something from my porch besides the crime that the new lights and annoying medians do not deter. Who knows, maybe it would bring more officer presence and force the Walnut Court dealers to be more circumspect. I know on nights The Pearl is open the presence is higher at that end of Springfield.
Btw, loved this thread. I think I'm stuck to the chair now, though ;)
A holocaust??
BTW, did you check out the building at 8th and Walnut?
Quote from: RiversideGator on April 15, 2008, 02:13:40 PM
A holocaust??
Agreed RG....Stephen, its not the right word to use....its a very sensitive word for some people...I recommend checking out the definition and its common usdage (see dictionary.com)....then change your phrasing.