Metro Jacksonville

DVI, JEDC, DIA or whoever is in charge now, this sounds like a great opportunity for downtown.  Someone help this guy out!

QuoteSo here’s what he has in mind: His King Street location would continue brewing smaller batches of a variety of beers to serve in the taproom there. But he’d build a new brewery with much bigger equipment to brew the few beers that are canned for stores or kegged for bars and restaurants.

That other brewery would have a taproom to serve beer by the glass, too.

“I’ve poked my head around Brooklyn and Springfield,” he said, “but I have a fondness for downtown.”

He’s guessing the new project would cost about $2 million, but that depends on whether he builds from scratch or takes over an existing building.

http://jacksonville.com/entertainment/food-and-dining/2012-05-18/story/intuition-ale-works-looking-second-site-accommodate

Any guesses as to how much space he needs?  It shouldn't be hard to find a good spot.

I spoke to them last week.  They're looking for something with 30' ceiling heights or so.  Nevertheless, the current building is a little over 13,000 square feet with 16' height clearance.

Fantastic news for downtown if this happens

Quote from: dougskiles on May 19, 2012, 04:59:34 AM
Any guesses as to how much space he needs?  It shouldn't be hard to find a good spot.

Doug-
It is actually very challenging to find a spot downtown. I wanted to go there initially before I decided on our current location in Riverside.

I would prefer an empty lot that would allow us to build from scratch plus there are no existing buildings downtown with the ceiling height we need, at least 30 foot clearance. We also need easy access for shipping and receiving which would rule out a cool spot like the downtown library.

Thanks for everyone's continued support and we are looking forward to this new journey.

I also wanted to add that because this location will be producing beer for statewide distribution we will not be overly dependent on downtown retail. It would be gravy for our overall operation and as the demand increased we'd be ready.

Imagine a biergarten on the river!

Perhaps a real brewery at the River City site...  8)

This would be so amazing if all works out.  I hope the best of luck. 

Quote from: BridgeTroll on May 19, 2012, 09:36:18 AM
Perhaps a real brewery at the River City site...  8)

River City "Brewery"....what an embarrassment. Worst beer/food combo in the core. Rather knock back a PBR and a hotdog for $3 bucks than deal with that crap.

What about the old Lay Z Boy warehouse that is for sale on the Arlington Expressway? It is a large tall building on a larger property. Central location, easy access, 10 minutes from downtown.

Quote from: Intuition Ale Works on May 19, 2012, 08:57:09 AM

Quote from: dougskiles on May 19, 2012, 04:59:34 AM
Any guesses as to how much space he needs?  It shouldn't be hard to find a good spot.

Doug-
It is actually very challenging to find a spot downtown. I wanted to go there initially before I decided on our current location in Riverside.

I would prefer an empty lot that would allow us to build from scratch plus there are no existing buildings downtown with the ceiling height we need, at least 30 foot clearance. We also need easy access for shipping and receiving which would rule out a cool spot like the downtown library.

Thanks for everyone's continued support and we are looking forward to this new journey.

Check out 1st and Main St if you haven't already. Its not "downtown" per se, but its close enough and visible (across from The Pearl). The building has a large warehouse space in the back with 30 foot ceilings. There is a large room in the front that could easily be converted to a tap room/bar. It also has a large surface lot that can be used for expansion. Plus it has several large rollup service doors for shipping and easy access to I-95.

Its a really cool historic building that would be amazing with a rehab. You also may be able to get it on the cheap.

Feel free to PM me if you have any questions.

^I was thinking the same site.  If you want to go with a new building, there are some good spots available on Kings Avenue which will be right at the new I-95 interchange.

There are no shortage of empty lots downtown you could build on. Whatever you chose I'm sure youll find success. Best of luck to one of Jacksonville's greatest businesses.

1100 Main Street?

I believe they are talking about what was originally the Downtown Chevrolet Building at the corner of First and Main.  It eventually became Downtown Oldsmobile, which moved out to Cassat Ave and became Woolverton Oldsmobile.  The original showroom, if not destroyed by now, would make a great cafe' type arrangement and I'm sure the service bays have the height.  My vote is on this site.

What about the old Ford plant on the river near the Mathews bridge? It would need quite a bit of work to rehab, but what a cool place to have a brewery. I toured this building recently, it is in derelict condition, but what an amazing structure.

Also, the closed Crest Chevrolet dealership at Merrill and 9A (295). This is a newer building (8 years old?) in very good condition. It is adjacent to both 295 and the Southside Connector.

Why not somewhere along the riverwalk, either northside or the southbank? Get people out of their cars and walking, and what better asset to take advantage of with the River?

Quote from: billy on May 19, 2012, 11:54:09 AM
1100 Main Street?

That is what I was originally talking about, but the EHT building at Main and Orange is also an interesting possibility.  Being right next to Confederate Park and Hogans Creek presents some really cool opportunities to create a Biergarten there though. The third floor of the EHT building has an awesome view of downtown and would make a fantastic bar/club/music venue. Its one of the most unique interiors in downtown.

Probably a complicated real estate transaction though.

1100 Main zoning is CCG-S.

I appreciate all the suggestions!

Just a reminder but we need a building with 30 foot high ceilings and probably zoned IL to protect ourselves from future development/our neighbors.

If you have been in our brewery and noticed our ceiling heights, double that.

Quote from: billy on May 19, 2012, 02:04:26 PM
1100 Main zoning is CCG-S.

Its an industrial building and given Main Street's need for quality development, I don't think there would be any problem getting it rezoned to IL.

Does the entire building need these ceiling heights or just part of it? How many sq ft need the taller ceiling heights?

http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/gallery/20139529_DQSj9j#!i=1589902687&k=JGTXTwf&lb=1&s=A

Guaranty Trust and Savings Bank
101 E. Bay St.

I'm pretty sure this is at least 30ft high - and you'd get the bar crowd :)

http://g.co/maps/4fmuf

^great for a bar, but no loading dock.

Here is a downtown zoning map from the city's GIS site.  Light gray is IL (light industrial).

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Other/mi/i-Hns28rG/0/X2/Downtown-Zoning-X2.jpg)

The EHT/old Claude Nolan building at Main & Orange (just South of 1st) is being strongly considered for the new Supervisor of Elections building.

The Earl Horne building (1st & Main) would be ideal.

As would the huge, white, old laundry warehouse at 5th & Main.

As would, for new construction, a number of large empty lots on Main between 1st & 8th.

How about the old Fire Station near Everbank on Riverside? Probably not big enough.

I know it was already said, but the fire station in Brooklyn might be perfect.  http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2007-nov-ten-reasons-to-save-fire-station-five
The building itself might give 30' high clearance and a build on could be added on the back. 

Quote from: Bill Hoff on May 19, 2012, 06:46:57 PM
The EHT/old Claude Nolan building at Main & Orange (just South of 1st) is being strongly considered for the new Supervisor of Elections building.

The Earl Horne building (1st & Main) would be ideal.

As would the huge, white, old laundry warehouse at 5th & Main.

As would, for new construction, a number of large empty lots on Main between 1st & 8th.

Also, the old Haydon Burns Library. The owners have discussed a variety of options with a number of possible parties. Plenty of room, ideal location.

@Stephen, I'm not positive, but think that the EHT building may somehow be tied together with the Park View Property as a Joint Venture between Hionedes and the Park View Group. I looked at the building a couple years ago, so my recollection isn't fresh, but think that may the case. Still an awesome building that is worth looking into.

@Bill, Intuition already stated on the first page that they need shipping/receiving and ruled out The Library.

Quote from: stephendare on May 19, 2012, 11:28:21 PM

Quote from: CityLife on May 19, 2012, 11:25:50 PM
@Stephen, I'm not positive, but think that the EHT building may somehow be tied together with the Park View Property as a Joint Venture between Hionedes and the Park View Group. I looked at the building a couple years ago, so my recollection isn't fresh, but think that may the case. Still an awesome building that is worth looking into.

@Bill, Intuition already stated on the first page that they need shipping/receiving and ruled out The Library.

Robert Van Winkel was merely providing parking for anything that happened at the Claude Nolan building.  I think it might be much simpler now that there are no plans to develop the property jointly.

Gotcha. Thanks.

Paging Mr. Clark and Mr. Trendel.

How about P.S. #4?  Put the fermenters under a new 30 foot roof where the roof collapsed/burned.

^Love that idea. Is the property still landlocked by the owner? I'll have the P.S.#4!

Quote from: Kickbackssteve on May 20, 2012, 02:19:24 AM
How about P.S. #4?  Put the fermenters under a new 30 foot roof where the roof collapsed/burned.

+10000

One thing everyone talking about Main Street in Springfield is forgetting about is zoning.  This project requires light industrial. This is not a small scale thing like the existing one and they are hoping to become even larger. You could get the brewery in under a PUD I guess, but when the community fights things allowed under the zoning laws, when it fights the things allowed under exceptions, do you really believe that there would not be a fight over this?  Even though the project may win in the end, the bad taste might be enough to stop it anyway.

I would think it might be good to look a bit northward.  Follow Paul Davis Restoration's lead.  This could be the first of many similar ideas (retail, industrial) in the warehouse district.  I can think of four, maybe as many as six possible buildings that would be suitable.  The coolest would offer lots of expansion possibilities though perhaps the most expensive to make work (think how cool to have intuition ale being brewed in the old coca cola building)  Initial purchase prices are actually pretty low and today is a great time to rehab a building as costs are down with labor and material as cheap as it ever has been.  And, of course, it is light industrial all ready.  No issues with the historic district as most of the buildings are just outside of the line.  Easy access to MLK and I95.  As it as been stated that the retail on site sales are secondary, one could put up with the lighter traffic as the word got out and people started thinking going to the warehouse district was cool.

MJ has posted the study and the proposals that have been dreamed of for this warehouse district in the past.  Perhaps this could be the real catalyst to move those ideas forward.

Here's one article on the warehouse district, but I haven't found the one that discussed a possible future mixed use area.

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2008-jul-then-and-now-the-springfield-warehouse-district (http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2008-jul-then-and-now-the-springfield-warehouse-district)

And then there is this article:

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2011-oct-the-riverside-brewing-district-then-and-now (http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2011-oct-the-riverside-brewing-district-then-and-now)

It does seems as if the Springfield warehouse district would be a perfect fit.

Quote
Strider, I think if you check, these two properties fall outside of the zoning over lay.

I know that The Pearl (which used to be the old TSI did, which is why it opened there.

By the way, the Pearl is indeed within the Historic District and was and is subject to the guidelines.  There was a fight over it when it opened due to some of the exterior details the owner wanted nd of course, it has been the subject of community discussion several times.

Quote from: stephendare on May 20, 2012, 08:44:19 AM
Strider, I think if you check, these two properties fall outside of the zoning over lay.

I know that The Pearl (which used to be the old TSI did, which is why it opened there.

The Pearl and the old Chevy dealership at 1st & Main fall within the Springfield zoning overlay:

http://www.coj.net/departments/planning-and-development/docs/community-planning-division/default/springfield-district-map.aspx

Nevertheless, I don't that that really matters.  They'll probably need a PUD at any site not zoned industrial.  Given the problems they've dealt with in Riverside, I'd stick to areas with industrial surroundings and history.  That will make it much easier to do what they want to do without worrying about a crazy neighbor or community organizations slowing their production.  That will also give them more property for getting trucks in and out of the site, while presenting the option of them having land to throw their own events such as food trucks, etc.  I also agree with Strider that the Springfield warehouse district does offer great opportunity, although its a little far off the beaten path (they want to be closer to downtown).  There's a couple of properties there that may work and they are already zoned IL.  If shooting for downtown, their best chance is going to be someplace like LaVilla or near Maxwell House or the Union Terminal warehouse off East Union.

Strider, here is the article you were looking for:

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/774601278_2WbFo-M.jpg)

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2010-jan-urban-core-vision-plan-to-be-unveiled

Btw, the warehouse district is outside of the official historic district boundaries.  One would have more options with an infill site or partial demo of an existing structure to accommodate the extra heights they may need for the brewhouse.

Quote from: stephendare on May 19, 2012, 11:28:21 PM

Quote from: CityLife on May 19, 2012, 11:25:50 PM
@Stephen, I'm not positive, but think that the EHT building may somehow be tied together with the Park View Property as a Joint Venture between Hionedes and the Park View Group. I looked at the building a couple years ago, so my recollection isn't fresh, but think that may the case. Still an awesome building that is worth looking into.

@Bill, Intuition already stated on the first page that they need shipping/receiving and ruled out The Library.

Robert Van Winkel was merely providing parking for anything that happened at the Claude Nolan building.  I think it might be much simpler now that there are no plans to develop the property jointly.

The proposed design of the Supervisor of Elections building at 1st & Orange shows both sites developed. The parkview site would be turned into a small plaza with about half the parking saved, if my memory serves me right.

Near Maxwell House would be great. A Phillip Randolf looks like prime for revitalization.

Quote from: stephendare on May 20, 2012, 09:53:59 AM
they must have included it since TSI then, the rest of that little area is carved out of the zone.

It's been that way since I've been in Jax.

I love the Springfield Warehouse district and think there is a ton of potential there, but think Intuition is looking for a more high profile location. Given the potential of Intuition and the void of entertainment options DT, it makes sense to be a little closer to the DT core in my opinion.

A lot of cities have breweries within walking distance of their downtown core or entertainment districts. Having brewery tours at Intuition would significantly add to the vibrancy of DT. I was at a conference in Toronto last fall and Steam Whistle Brewery is located right next to the Convention Center/CN Tower/Arena/Baseball Stadium area. During conference breaks lots of people would go on brewery tours, businesses had their private parties at the brewery,  and it basically became the place to hang out at the conference. Intuition could have a similar effect in Downtown. They would also significantly raise their profile with a prominent location.

Lake nailed all the potential spots and IMO the ideal spot would be somewhere between the sports district and "entertainment district", especially if the convention center is going to move to the old courthouse site.  Unfortunately JSO HQ, Sulzbacher, and the Jail take up most of this area, but there have to be some options. Perhaps even part of the Shipyards site?

Intuition, roughly how large of a lot do you need? Also, do you plan to do brewery tours at the site?

Quote from: stephendare on May 20, 2012, 10:31:27 AM

Quote from: thelakelander on May 20, 2012, 10:10:30 AM

Quote from: stephendare on May 20, 2012, 09:53:59 AM
they must have included it since TSI then, the rest of that little area is carved out of the zone.

It's been that way since I've been in Jax.

When Ryan and Jason opened it in 2002, the property was exempt from the overlay.  It was the reason that they were allowed to open a bar (which is denied by the overlay) instead of a cafe with a liquor license.

They had looked at a couple of properties within the overlay reach but what they wanted to do wasn't allowed.

So they settled on the old liquor store/bar instead.

Keep in mind that the actual historic district as drawn out on the map for that purpose is smaller than the area the overlay governs.  If you draw out the area encompassed by the overly on the map for the historic district, you will see this. I believe that the overlay effectively requires certain properties to follow the guidelines set forth in the overlay even though they were originally blocked out of the historic district. That may explain some of the issue with the Pearl. Also remember that the Pearl location was a bar in a prior life - there is a chance it had not been closed for a year and a day before TCI got it.

Citylife, while it sounds great to have the brewery downtown, it may come down to costs in the end.  Also remember the need for easy access to a major highway.  That just seems to make the Springfield Warehouse District a valid option. 

Who was the first in the Riverside warehouse area/ King street?  Where they not pioneers of sorts?  That begs the question of if one comes to the Springfield Warehouse District, will many more?

^BCB was the first.

Quote from: Intuition Ale Works on May 19, 2012, 08:57:09 AM

Quote from: dougskiles on May 19, 2012, 04:59:34 AM
Any guesses as to how much space he needs?  It shouldn't be hard to find a good spot.

Doug-
It is actually very challenging to find a spot downtown. I wanted to go there initially before I decided on our current location in Riverside.

I would prefer an empty lot that would allow us to build from scratch plus there are no existing buildings downtown with the ceiling height we need, at least 30 foot clearance. We also need easy access for shipping and receiving which would rule out a cool spot like the downtown library.

Thanks for everyone's continued support and we are looking forward to this new journey.

Intuitions the pioneer of the King street corridor. It would be a bummer to lose ya. The DT challenge could be (if not already) frustrating.
Have you talked with Mac Easton?
Several of your employees are within biking/walking distance and refrain from cars.
All the suggested sites by our posters are beautiful and positive assets to Intuition ale. Its the red tape and politics that will discourage one from taking a business DT.
Many at CoRK talk highly of Intuition. A mosey on over to Intuition is very common.

The Earl Horne building at 1st and Main is likely not 30 feet. Probably only 20-25. My bad.

Strider, there is no doubt that Intuition coming to the Springfield Warehouse District would make others follow. If I had 10 million bucks that would probably be one of the first places I'd look at developing in Jax. In this situation  what matters is what is best for the Intuition brand and future. Brewing capabilities are likely a large factor in the choice of location, but the ability to become an attraction, host events, be highly visible, and make more money from the taproom would make downtown or a doable walk from downtown (EHT Building) more attractive. Maxwell House is located in an ideal spot for the brewery and they seem to have no issues with transportation.

Intuition has only been open 18 months and is on the road to the bigtime. A friend of mine lives in Denver and was impressed with Intuition at this years Great American Beer Festival. The fact that they were already at a major national beer festival and want to already expand to major bottling, screams Downtown. Having a visible presence in downtown will make Intuition more well known locally and regionally. It will be a major catalyst for downtown revitalization. It will make Intuition one of the first things listed to do in DT. Here for a night at the Hyatt? Go check out Intuition Brewery. Entertaining people from out of town? Take them to dinner on the river and for a Brewery Tour. And so on.

I've been going to Bold City since they opened and will always have a special place in my heart for them, but if Intuition goes prime time with a downtown location that would take them to another level. It may be pricier up front than LaVilla, Brooklyn, and Springfield Warehouse District, but the free advertising that comes from being Downtown, coupled with the capability of hosting events/private parties, additional revenue from the taproom, and potential for brewery tours makes downtown a safer and more financially viable move long term.

My $.02.

1. Best spot would be somewhere between The Florida Theater and the Stadium. Would be a cool stand alone
attraction but also would benefit from all the events held in that area of downtown.

2. Springfield warehouse distict. Real cheap to get a huge existing structure there, buildout as necessary, access to rail lines and I -95. Would be a huge improvement to Springfield.

3.  Hionides would be smart to GIVE them any parcel they wanted on Main Street north of downtown, because that would make all his other properties in that area worth more immediately.

4. Inside the YMCA on Riverside. Aren't they vacating  that structure to build new on the river in that same location? Incredibly close to I 95.

The perfect place for a new brewery??  How about an old vacant, historic Jacksonville brewery?

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2007-aug-jax-beer-the-drink-of-friendship

(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-1714-jbc-map.jpg)

Unfortunately, it's too far from downtown, which is where they really want to be.

Quote from: thelakelander on May 21, 2012, 08:03:25 AM
Unfortunately, it's too far from downtown, which is where they really want to be.

I figured that... but sure would be cool to put that facility to work brewing beer again...

Would be great to see them in the Landing with a tie-in for a restaurant. Get Matthew's to build an M-Shack next to Intuition and add some more traffic to the Landing.  Fionn MacCool's is proving it can survive, so should an Intuition/M-Shack. Tony would open up the 2nd floor for bigger tanks.

Thanks again for all the suggestions but I want to make our needs clear.

We are looking for a very large space, at least 15,000 sq/ft with more room for expansion and need 30' foot high ceilings for a majority of the space.
Plus we need an easily accessible dock high loading area

We are currently in a 12,000 warehouse and have outgrown in a year and a half. I will not be in the same situation again.

The library is an interesting option. It would give us room to grow, high ceilings, lack of A/C is not a negative as climate control is a waste in a Florida brewery, and the location is great.
But I think the lack of a legitimate loading and unloading area rules it out.

I really would love to go into an existing building but this is the second time I have targeted downtown and I am inclined to think building a new structure is the most realistic option.

Maybe there is a space that we could make taller? Not sure

I really hope we can make this happen. I want to help downtown's revitalization.

Ben

^Well, there are no shortage of vacant lots to build on downtown. That would be much needed infill as well.

Ben, have you looked over in the stadium district? It's not really the core of downtown, but it's close to it and there are quite a few industrial-zoned structures over there.

If you could get the library to work for you, it would be glorious.

Is the loading dock between the old library and 11 East too small?

http://g.co/maps/h9p83

Snapped some pics of the Library loading area a few minutes ago. It has access points to Adams and Forsyth. Its probably a tight fit though. Ben, I'm sure you've already looked at it, but is there anyway to work with this?

(http://images3a.snapfish.com/232323232%7Ffp73447%3Enu%3D3267%3E5%3B6%3E8%3C9%3EWSNRCG%3D379348486532%3Anu0mrj)

(http://images5a.snapfish.com/232323232%7Ffp63582%3Enu%3D3267%3E5%3B6%3E8%3C9%3EWSNRCG%3D379348486732%3Anu0mrj)

(http://images5a.snapfish.com/232323232%7Ffp635%3B9%3Enu%3D3267%3E5%3B6%3E8%3C9%3EWSNRCG%3D379348724832%3Anu0mrj)

(http://images3a.snapfish.com/232323232%7Ffp733%3C7%3Enu%3D3267%3E5%3B6%3E8%3C9%3EWSNRCG%3D379348486832%3Anu0mrj)

Quote from: Lunican on May 21, 2012, 02:33:48 PM
Is the loading dock between the old library and 11 East too small?

http://g.co/maps/h9p83

It's a pretty pisspoor design for what Intuition is looking to do.  Go into some of the older grocery stores and see how inefficient it is to be making lots of right-angle turns when trying to load large and heavy pallets on to trucks. 

QuoteI want to help downtown's revitalization.

You're not fooling anyone... you're only doing this because of the Mobility Fee Moratorium.  ;)

I think the old library would be a great spot. From what I hear, those guys want to get the building off their hands to the first good offer they get.

The library is not a structurally sound building. That is one of the reasons they could not put all the books they wanted on the shelves, the density was not available because there are floor loads that the additional weight caused as an issue. They had many issues with doors not shutting properly and cracks due to excessive weight.

It would be a very expensive demo to remove the 1st floor to allow for access in the basement.

I know these things because I used to be a vendor with the JPL, before the wicked witch of the North, Barbara Gubbin canned all the old guard there. The Facilities guy is still with the JPL, he worked in the old buildings before moving to the new, he could fill you in on details, if you want. Stephen ? Good guy.

Structural deficits?  From a Taylor Hardwick building?  No surprise.  That's why 1651 Margaret St. exists.

From the sounds of it, nothing is happening to the King Street brewery, so everyone can rest easy.  Bold City was the first in the neighborhood, but you wouldn't know it from looking at them today.  Both breweries have developed great locations for beer production and hosting the public.  Unfortunately the unique space that Intuition has built out has severe limits in terms of production capacity.  In the beer industry, fermentation tanks get much taller before they increase in diameter to increase volume.  That said, while square footage is negotiable, ceiling heights aren't.  Unfortunately, this caused the Red Brick Brewery in Atlanta had to move to a sterile office park in order to find an adequate space.  I don't know Sweetwater's origins, but they are currently in an industrial park. As you can see from the Intuition's situation, as much as brewers want to fit into a neighborhood they can't compromise on what they need to effectively run their business. 

In terms of revitalizing neighborhoods, I'd be careful what conclusions you jump to.  This brewery will be far more industrial and production oriented (as a percentage of space usage and functionality) than the Riverside location.  I'm sure they'll do tours and have tap room business, but the bulk of the exterior won't be able to address the street like a bar or restaurant would.  Downtown has hundreds of empty blocks or unactivated street fronts, so they will be a big improvement over whats there. 

In my opinion, Brooklyn or LaVilla would be great locations.  Both have great access and plenty of land to build from scratch.  The paint district (Park & Forest street) has some warehouses, but I doubt that they have the adequate ceiling heights.  Springfield has a decent stock of existing industrial buildings, but the access is not great especially in terms of getting to downtown. 

Either way, I think a good example to look to would be Great Divide Brewery.  They produce about 25,000 barrels a year and they are located in the heart of downtown Denver.  However, they were recruited by the city of Denver to open downtown and received heavy incentives.  Brooklyn Brewery is obviously another urban brewery.  I'll look into more examples.

Brooklyn Brewery has two buildings right off the Williamsburg main commercial strip... But they contract out most of their brewing.  Even with the addition of the new building across the street a few years ago, they brew less than a quarter of their total yearly production out of their Williamsburg facilities. 

At one point they were looking at expanding their operations to an old shipping wharf with an outdoor beer garden that would be adjacent to Brooklyn Bridge Park(a really cool waterfront park in the DUMBO area).. Think about how cool a brewery would be adjacent to a Bay Street Pier Park at the former Shipyards site (hint, hint Mr Davis)

Sweetwater has expanded onto vacant land next door.
They are well located in terms of zoning, proximity to I-85 and the BeltLine.

This is great news. Welcome to downtown, springfield, brooklyn or whereever you decide to come.

Quote from: fieldafm on May 22, 2012, 06:00:04 AM
At one point they were looking at expanding their operations to an old shipping wharf with an outdoor beer garden that would be adjacent to Brooklyn Bridge Park(a really cool waterfront park in the DUMBO area).. Think about how cool a brewery would be adjacent to a Bay Street Pier Park at the former Shipyards site (hint, hint Mr Davis)

Ford Motor Company Assembly Plant, maybe?

Considering how isolated the Ford Plant is, I say the existing Shipyards site offers far more bang for the buck... right down the street from the Bay Street Entertainment District and certainly adjacent to land with similar zoning characteristics.

(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/assets/thumbs/image.1665.feature.jpg)

If Ben is looking to build from scratch, the city can seperate a specific-size parcel from this property that would fit in with the developers needs.  The sale of this land could then help to pay for the extension of the Riverwalk and the buildout of a very simple but flexible public pier (the city has already repaired the sidewalk along this stretch of Bay Street and has started to work on flood mitigation issues at the mouht of Hogans Creek).  Jim Love had an idea about selling private monuments and bricks to also offset some of this cost with private funds (Landmar already did a good chunk of the work by repairing the bulkheads).

This would be in line with the previous suggestions offered here of emulating the Columbus Commons model of downsizing the land by splitting it up and letting the site evolve naturally with builtin public amenities surrounding the property (pier, riverwalk, Hogans Creek)... instead of relying on a big-idea, risky mega-development 'savior' that has already failed not once, but twice on this very same land. 

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Columbus-Commons/Both-Plans/974611805_do7Ba-M.jpg)

good location. Beer and Coffee! how could we brand that district?

Nailed it fieldafm. This is a great opportunity for the city to facilitate positive development downtown.  Intuition at the Shipyards would also increase the value/potential of the city's nearby real estate interests. Which would be the other portion of the Shipyards, The Old Courthouse, Old City Hall, Jail, Police Building, and numerous others. With that in mind it should be easier to work with the city than a private landowner, but I guess you never know how thick the red tape may be.

Shipyards is perfect, Someone is going to tear down/fix Berkman II, probably tear down with some help from the city and start over. The courthouse is moving, City Hall Annex will be moving, the jail at some point will probably be moving to somewhere near the courthouse. As all the planners convey in ideas, this whole area in 5-10 years could turn into present day Lavilla, with little or nothing there.

But if we see a Hyatt "Public/Private" Partnership and a convention center there, with an expanded riverwalk down to Intuition/other riverfront developments, I see it as a win-win for that area. The mayor should really step in and create more incentives NOW for people to develop there in the shipyards. Put your money where your mouth is Alvin!

Field I love the idea of it, but how is the access to and from there for large trucks. They may not be 18 wheelers, but at some point some pretty big trucks are going to need to pick up and drop off things there. Could the property accommodate a loading dock with it's shallow depth?? Also, at least one side (more like all but 1 or maybe parts of two) of the property is going to be pretty industrial in appearance and how it interacts with the street. Think of intuition now but with far more tanks and a smaller percentage of the space going towards a tap room. Is this the best place for that??

If it were to be built there: I'd like to see it on the far west side with let tap room on one side going from bay street back and a patio on the river, the other side would have adjoining retail, the loading dock concealed, but with easy access to bay, and a big sign right out front letting everybody know tour schedules and tap room hours.

Eureka moment: what if they could put it in what is now considered Lot H (I think) where they currently set up for gameday tailgates?? I always love seeing their flag flying high on gameday, and I'd love to see it with a huge brewery underneath it in the future.

Riverfront is likely to be pricey for a new business based on shipping.  A big Intuition Ale works neon sign on the River would be awesome.

+1

There are lots of 18 wheelers that travel along Bay Street now.  With a blank slate, something could be built that would accomodate a superior loading dock facility.

Is this the cheapest option?  Probably not, but if I am spending Intution's imaginary money a riverfront taproom overlooking the Bay Street Public Pier at Bay Street Pier Park along a completed Riverwalk would at least be something I would explore.

Quote from: fieldafm on May 22, 2012, 12:47:36 PM
Is this the cheapest option?  Probably not, but if I am spending Intution's imaginary money a riverfront taproom overlooking the Bay Street Public Pier at Bay Street Pier Park along a completed Riverwalk would at least be something I would explore.

I don't see why the city can't offer some of the Shipyards land to Intuition at a significantly reduced rate (or heck free) as an incentive. And you would also think Intuition would be a little more likely to spend an extra buck or two for prime real estate. I think Mr. Davis gave us a little insight into his ideal situation with this line on page 1 "Imagine a biergarten on the river!"

Its really a win-win for all parties.

Intuition develops part of the site, thus making the rest of the Shipyards more attractive for development. It would make the old courthouse/city hall site more attractive for a convention center or major development. It would bring more people to events at the arena/baseball grounds (major complaint is lack of nearby entertainment). It would put at least part of the shipyards back on the tax rolls. All bringing in more money directly to the city.

Intuition gets prime real estate and is able to open a high profile brewery. It becomes a destination for downtown visitors. It draws people from the entertainment district, riverwalk, sports district, etc. A biergarten that serves fresh beer and food along the river would make serious bank, not to mention the potential for brewery tours.

And we citizens of Jacksonville get an awesome locally owned and operated brewery downtown. Win win win. Make it happen Mayor Brown.

Rooftop deck too, please....

Not gonna happen, would be great, but not gonna happen.

Too bad the Greyhound station hasn't moved yet, that old facility could easily be converted.  Truck wells can be installed and the roof is high enough in areas for the brewing facility. 

QuoteAnd we citizens of Jacksonville get an awesome locally owned and operated brewery downtown. Win win win. Make it happen Mayor Brown.

+1

Quote from: downtownjag on May 22, 2012, 01:35:12 PM
Not gonna happen, would be great, but not gonna happen.

Too bad the Greyhound station hasn't moved yet, that old facility could easily be converted.  Truck wells can be installed and the roof is high enough in areas for the brewing facility. 

this might actually be a great idea, assuming that JTA is still working on building a new Greyhound station...

I'm not sure the building has 30' height, but it could be a solid structure to build off of

QuoteI'm not sure the building has 30' height, but it could be a solid structure to build off of

Provided there is no environmental left behind after all those years of leaking oil into the ground.....

The former Union Terminal Company warehouse, at 648 East Union Street. Is this building being used for anything or for sale?

is there a preexisting height restriction in the brooklyn/park street area? thinking one of those one/two story buildings, near the florist and 'da tunnel' can be raised to the 30' required.

Quote from: tufsu1 on May 22, 2012, 02:49:52 PM

Quote from: downtownjag on May 22, 2012, 01:35:12 PM
Not gonna happen, would be great, but not gonna happen.

Too bad the Greyhound station hasn't moved yet, that old facility could easily be converted.  Truck wells can be installed and the roof is high enough in areas for the brewing facility. 

this might actually be a great idea, assuming that JTA is still working on building a new Greyhound station...

I'm not sure the building has 30' height, but it could be a solid structure to build off of

If you think the crowd that hangs out at the Greyhound station looks rough now.....  Imagine if Intuition was there.  Just sayin'.   ;D

Quote from: blizz01 on May 22, 2012, 01:21:22 PM
Rooftop deck too, please....

Yes please at the shipyards location.

Quote from: JeffreyS on May 22, 2012, 04:40:40 PM

Quote from: blizz01 on May 22, 2012, 01:21:22 PM
Rooftop deck too, please....

Yes please at the shipyards location.

Biergarten on the water and Rooftop Deck. Gamechanger.

If that were to happen at the Shipyards site, it would be great to attach a restaurant/restaurants to the project. I'm sure many of the most successful in town restaurants would love to be a part of such a development. I don't know what Terry Lorrince does on a day to day basis, but if I'm her I'm trying to work with Intuition, Mayors Office, Restaurants, and JEDC to make this happen. Screw marketing and promotional BS. Make something happen.

Quote from: tufsu1 on May 22, 2012, 02:49:52 PM

Quote from: downtownjag on May 22, 2012, 01:35:12 PM
Not gonna happen, would be great, but not gonna happen.

Too bad the Greyhound station hasn't moved yet, that old facility could easily be converted.  Truck wells can be installed and the roof is high enough in areas for the brewing facility. 

this might actually be a great idea, assuming that JTA is still working on building a new Greyhound station...

I'm not sure the building has 30' height, but it could be a solid structure to build off of

Thanks!  It's one of the few areas of DT that has great ingress/egress for beer trucks, etc and is very central.  It's probably a pipe dream, along with, in my opinion, the old library (unless he leases) and the shipyards though.

There are a few old warehouses by Wormans that may work for Ben though.  The best would be if he put it in the old firehouse across from the old courthouse, but there is absolutely no parking... It would just make one hell of an Intuition bar/taproom

QuoteScrew marketing and promotional BS. Make something happen.

+1 Exactly, forget the ideas here, make it happen.

I don't think I've seen it mentioned here but what about the old Quality Foods in Springfield (Between Main and Market-7/8th) don't know about ceiling height but it's a pretty large space with a loading dock and parking. Could be a game changer for Springfield.

40,000 square feet may be too large but does it have a high dock loading area?

Quote from: Intuition Ale Works on May 21, 2012, 01:27:59 PM

Thanks again for all the suggestions but I want to make our needs clear.

We are looking for a very large space, at least 15,000 sq/ft with more room for expansion and need 30' foot high ceilings for a majority of the space.
Plus we need an easily accessible dock high loading area

We are currently in a 12,000 warehouse and have outgrown in a year and a half. I will not be in the same situation again.

The library is an interesting option. It would give us room to grow, high ceilings, lack of A/C is not a negative as climate control is a waste in a Florida brewery, and the location is great.
But I think the lack of a legitimate loading and unloading area rules it out.

I really would love to go into an existing building but this is the second time I have targeted downtown and I am inclined to think building a new structure is the most realistic option.

Maybe there is a space that we could make taller? Not sure

I really hope we can make this happen. I want to help downtown's revitalization.

Ben

Stephen, I love that building too. I believe it is a Klutho as well. Would be nice to see someone, ANYONE, renovate it and remove the limestone (?) facade and restore the original brick front. I always thought that would make a great loft conversion as well, especially now that the Park View Inn has been removed.

Quote from: stephendare on May 24, 2012, 10:31:42 AM
I just spoke with Matt Clark about the EHThompson Building and it actually fits the specs to a t.

35 foot ceilings, giant bay doors and 40 thousand square feet of space.

It would transform that area and kickstart main street again.

When renovated it would have the perfect look of a brewery too. Easy access to 95 and Matthews/Main/Hart Bridges. Walkable from the entertainment district/CBD. Located on what should/could be Jacksonville's Central Park. Nearby are other industrial type uses (JEA and a manufacturing business). Plenty of parking. Endless possibilities with the interior. And its also about a quarter mile walk from the FSCJ Skyway Stop. 

Not to be a party pooper but they'll need a high dock loading area for trucks or a ramp would have to be created someway to transition product from truck trailers.  Here are a few images of high dock loading areas (including the one they have now):

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Neighborhoods/Talleyrand/i-3tpkbcp/0/M/P1550607-M.jpg)

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/1024493923_CTpFJ-M.jpg)

Because of how closely the building fronts the street you would possibly have to close off Orange Street for through traffic for a loading ramp. Its not a necessary road, so that shouldn't be an issue.

Photos can't do the interior any justice. The view of the skyline is awesome (which you can't see in the photo tour) and there is a car ramp between the different levels (old car showroom). There are also offices on the 3rd floor. The Main Street side of the first floor has some very intricate tile work and would be an interesting tap room/restaurant.

(http://images5a.snapfish.com/232323232%7Ffp63549%3Enu%3D3267%3E5%3B6%3E8%3C9%3EWSNRCG%3D37943%3B%3A4%3C632%3Anu0mrj)
This gives you an idea of how large the 3rd floor space is. The first floor is similar. Car ramp is to the right

(http://images5a.snapfish.com/232323232%7Ffp63597%3Enu%3D3267%3E5%3B6%3E8%3C9%3EWSNRCG%3D379438%3C%3B7232%3Anu0mrj)
There is a skyline view from the entire left side of the building. The door you see leads to a bunch of offices. The stairs leading to the overhanging platform would probably make the coolest DJ booth/stage in Jax.

High loading docks don't have anything to do with flooding.  What's shown in the image along Orange Street is not a high loading dock and does not have the clearance for truck trailers.  A common dock height from ground level falls somewhere between 48"-52".  It would also be a good idea to give yourself a good 135' or so for your loading apron so trucks won't block the street while being loaded/unloaded.  The positive of such an area would mean your property would also have a flexible outdoor area for special events.  With that said, there may be one on the building's east elevation near the creek but I can't really tell.

I'd be game for that....

Ennis, I believe the eastern portion might be better suited for a high dock loading ramp. I'll go down and snap some shots later.

Jason I bet you guys could do some amazing things with that building. How much cheaper would it be to rehab it vs. a new building?

Call me the party pooper, I want to see Intuition in "Downtown proper", not Springfield.  I'm not familiar with the building Stephen is suggesting, but isn't it in Springfield?

It's my personal opinion that Intuition is going to get a lot more visibility long term, and (again just my opinion) look like more of a staple to the city if it is Downtown, not Springfield.  Plus, with the type business Intuition is, they are probably eligible for empowerment and enterprise zone credits and savings by being Downtown. 

All just friendly suggestions on this forum, that's just mine.

Quote from: downtownjag on May 24, 2012, 01:15:43 PM
Call me the party pooper, I want to see Intuition in "Downtown proper", not Springfield.  I'm not familiar with the building Stephen is suggesting, but isn't it in Springfield?

It's my personal opinion that Intuition is going to get a lot more visibility long term, and (again just my opinion) look like more of a staple to the city if it is Downtown, not Springfield.  Plus, with the type business Intuition is, they are probably eligible for empowerment and enterprise zone credits and savings by being Downtown. 

All just friendly suggestions on this forum, that's just mine.

Its actually as much downtown as it is in Springfield. Its across from the corner of State and Main, and a block away from the new 7-11. Many people consider the Confederate/Klutho Parks system as the beginning of Springfield and this is south of that. Its not as high profile as the riverfront or old library, but its a really, really cool building right next to what should be Jacksonville's Central Park. There is serious long term potential in this area.

And the enterprise/empowerment credits are also available in Springfield.

http://www.coj.net/getmedia/d0f8a0e3-5f5f-4ac6-86b3-d9bbc93b5b7e/Main-EZone-Map.aspx

Quote from: CityLife on May 24, 2012, 12:59:56 PM
Ennis, I believe the eastern portion might be better suited for a high dock loading ramp. I'll go down and snap some shots later.

Jason I bet you guys could do some amazing things with that building. How much cheaper would it be to rehab it vs. a new building?

Tough to know in regards to rehabbing vs. new construction.  I'm sure new construction (depending on the type) somewhere could be cheaper than rehabbing this particular building, depending on how much rehab work you are doing.  If you don't touch every space/finish it may come out a bit even or cheaper.  That being said, to build this type of space from the ground up, with masonry and heavy timber structure - to essentially do a replica of this building would be very expensive. It's a great building...and I would love for us to get our hands on it. 

Also, that third floor could make an incredible indoor/outdoor biergarten.

Quote from: CityLife on May 24, 2012, 01:21:19 PM

Quote from: downtownjag on May 24, 2012, 01:15:43 PM
Call me the party pooper, I want to see Intuition in "Downtown proper", not Springfield.  I'm not familiar with the building Stephen is suggesting, but isn't it in Springfield?

It's my personal opinion that Intuition is going to get a lot more visibility long term, and (again just my opinion) look like more of a staple to the city if it is Downtown, not Springfield.  Plus, with the type business Intuition is, they are probably eligible for empowerment and enterprise zone credits and savings by being Downtown. 

All just friendly suggestions on this forum, that's just mine.

Its actually as much downtown as it is in Springfield. Its across from the corner of State and Main, and a block away from the new 7-11. Many people consider the Confederate/Klutho Parks system as the beginning of Springfield and this is south of that. Its not as high profile as the riverfront or old library, but its a really, really cool building right next to what should be Jacksonville's Central Park. There is serious long term potential in this area.

And the enterprise/empowerment credits are also available in Springfield.

http://www.coj.net/getmedia/d0f8a0e3-5f5f-4ac6-86b3-d9bbc93b5b7e/Main-EZone-Map.aspx

OK, I know the area... North side of State?

Its the building immediately north of the old Park View Inn.

Quote from: CityLife on May 24, 2012, 01:56:27 PM
Its the building immediately north of the old Park View Inn.

Ehhh... I always kinda viewed Union or State towards the river as "Downtown".  Anyways, thanks for clarifying... What about the building where Kartushe (spelling) was?  That whole area could be sparked by someone like Intuition.. (Just another friendly suggestion)

Loading docks aren't always necessary because you can always put in truck wells pretty easily. 

^They looked at Kartouche.  Evidently, it needed more work than they were willing to put in.

Guardian Commercial has a building for sale next to Burro bags, it was the old barn/stable... what about that?

Quote from: thelakelander on May 24, 2012, 02:50:44 PM
^They looked at Kartouche.  Evidently, it needed more work than they were willing to put in.

Too many years of abuse from dirty ravers and karaoke-singing asian guys.

Quote from: jason_contentdg on May 24, 2012, 12:48:21 PM
I'd be game for that....

This would be great site - plenty of space, fantastic atmosphere. People would flock here.

Going to check out the Claude Nolan building tomorrow.

I am a sucker for a building with "Old Bones"

Ben

Awesome Ben! Hope you like it.

The loading dock situation looks good to go. Snuck in a fence and snapped a few pics.

(http://images5a.snapfish.com/232323232%7Ffp63547%3Enu%3D3267%3E5%3B6%3E8%3C9%3EWSNRCG%3D37944%3B%3B%3B3932%3Anu0mrj)

(http://images5a.snapfish.com/232323232%7Ffp6355%3B%3Enu%3D3267%3E5%3B6%3E8%3C9%3EWSNRCG%3D37944%3B%3B%3B3832%3Anu0mrj)
Lots of possibilities with the surface lot

(http://images3a.snapfish.com/232323232%7Ffp7343%3B%3Enu%3D3267%3E5%3B6%3E8%3C9%3EWSNRCG%3D37944%3B%3B%3B3%3A32%3Anu0mrj)
Gives you an idea of how close the core of downtown is.

Quote from: CityLife on May 24, 2012, 08:07:52 PM
Gives you an idea of how close the core of downtown is.

True.  And when you think about it, it will actually help the core by bringing another cluster near the periphery. 

You have bars, shopping and restaurants at the Landing / Bay St. cluster

You have bars, music venues, restaurants, and a little shopping a few blocks up at, say the Hemming to Burrito Gallery cluster.

Now if this were to start happening, the old Park Place would see development, sooner than later, the 7-11 is going in, the college is already there, a park, a bar (The Pearl), a restaurant (Hola) are all within walking distance, and it's is the next stop before you hit the Main St. cluster say, starting with Mike and Waffa to 9th St.

The only thing that's discouraging is the fact that FBC takes up the 4-6 blocks from the Hemming cluster to the proposed North Jax Brewing Renaissance cluster.

I think it's a great idea if the building can be used the way Ben wants. 

Mother Cluster, I need to get out of the house.

(BTW cluster = 7, holistic = 0, streetcar = 0 but should really start to be part of any conversation)

Who said the FBC does not like great beer! 

Quote from: Intuition Ale Works on May 24, 2012, 06:35:53 PM

Going to check out the Claude Nolan building tomorrow.

I am a sucker for a building with "Old Bones"

Ben

Dude! If you think I am at the brewery a lot now, wait until you move a few blocks from my home! Hell, I may not even worry about paying rent anywhere anymore, just put a cot in the back. :)

Seriously, good luck. Springfield would be absolutely thrilled to have you. I know a lot of my friends there are very excited by the prospect!

This would be great. I hope something works out.

http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=535802
Either one would be an improvement.

This building (Old Claude Nolan Cadillac) would be a great choice but I'm not sure it is big enough.

Ben, I want to show you an amazing 58,000 sq ft vintage 1922 warehouse in Springfield with 7 loading doors and an active rail spur adjacent to it. It is in remarkably good shape and room for everything. PM me and we can go see it whenever you are available.

FYI...

Quote from: Intuition Ale Works on May 21, 2012, 01:27:59 PM

Thanks again for all the suggestions but I want to make our needs clear.

We are looking for a very large space, at least 15,000 sq/ft with more room for expansion and need 30' foot high ceilings for a majority of the space.
Plus we need an easily accessible dock high loading area

We are currently in a 12,000 warehouse and have outgrown in a year and a half. I will not be in the same situation again.

The library is an interesting option. It would give us room to grow, high ceilings, lack of A/C is not a negative as climate control is a waste in a Florida brewery, and the location is great.
But I think the lack of a legitimate loading and unloading area rules it out.

I really would love to go into an existing building but this is the second time I have targeted downtown and I am inclined to think building a new structure is the most realistic option.

Maybe there is a space that we could make taller? Not sure

I really hope we can make this happen. I want to help downtown's revitalization.

Ben

Any updates on a potential second location?

Not much of an update to report.

We checked out the EH Thompson building and passed on it. It is a much larger project than we can financially undertake.

We are working very hard to secure a piece of the Shipyards. Everyone we have talked to loves the idea.

We'll see...

Quote from: Intuition Ale Works on June 18, 2012, 07:50:01 AM

Not much of an update to report.

We checked out the EH Thompson building and passed on it. It is a much larger project than we can financially undertake.

We are working very hard to secure a piece of the Shipyards. Everyone we have talked to loves the idea.

We'll see...

Best of luck; that would be an incredible site

From The Business Journal:

A look at Intuition Ale Works' plan for the Shipyards

http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/blog/2012/06/a-look-at-intuition-ale-works-plan.html

(http://assets.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/blog/Intuition%20-%20Shipyards%2006-07-12_Siteplan%20550.jpg?v=1)

That image is really hard to see...

I know wish I could read it better. I wonder who came up with this site plan?

You can see it better if you go to the bizjournal article and click the picture, then click it again. 

http://assets.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/pdf/Intuition%20-%20Shipyards%2006-07-12_Siteplan.jpg (http://assets.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/pdf/Intuition%20-%20Shipyards%2006-07-12_Siteplan.jpg)

And.... maybe this will work:
(http://assets.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/pdf/Intuition%20-%20Shipyards%2006-07-12_Siteplan.jpg)

The design is a little crude but that would be an interesting location.

FYI guys...

this is just a very preliminary concept and site plan.

The guys at Design Cooperative put this together so we would have something to give to decision makers.

Looks good. Hope it all works out.

Looks like this is the location on Google Maps:

http://goo.gl/maps/6OsG (http://goo.gl/maps/6OsG)

Wow, what a fantastic spot for a restaurant. Great riverfront entertainment that would also be a huge step toward stitching together the Landing and the stadium district.

I love it.  Can't wait cruise the boat down to intuition.

I think it is a great concept.  If you had a good bit of boat access, it would be even greater.

Amazing.  I hope it is a huge success!

As a northern transplant, I want to say that restaurants with boat access are one of my favorite things about Jacksonville. When I've had visitors come from New York and Virginia, I've usually taken them to http://www.capsonthewater.com/ (http://www.capsonthewater.com/) and http://barbarajeans.com/ (http://barbarajeans.com/) so they can experience the riverfront life that we have here. It still feels exotic to me when a boat pulls up at Cap's and folks just walk off their boats. I just took my visiting parents to http://www.rivercitybrew.com/ (http://www.rivercitybrewing.net/), and the food is not even that great there. We need more restaurants with boat docks on the St. Johns river!

Love the site plan Intuition and smart strategy. So many people are going to be fired up about the project (myself included) that the city has no choice, other than to make it happen.

I'm sure you (Intuition) and your people are all over it, but if you look into how much property the city owns in immediate proximity to the proposed site, you'll find that they own a significant chunk of developable/redevelopable real estate (not just the Shipyards). In this case, if the city viewed itself as a Real Estate Developer/Land Owner, it would be very obvious to facilitate/incentivize this project. The increased values of their adjacent properties would likely offset the "loss" of giving this land to Intuition. Not to mention the intangible benefits for the city, downtown, and its residents are probably worth millions and millions in the long term.

Here is a little glimpse of all the properties the city owns in proximity to the proposed Intuition site. Basically, the city owns everything in the eastern portion of Downtown.

(http://images5a.snapfish.com/232323232%7Ffp635%3B%3B%3Enu%3D3267%3E5%3B6%3E8%3C9%3EWSNRCG%3D37%3A556649532%3Anu0mrj)

I did a quick search on the property appraisers site and these are a few of the parcels the city owns near the proposed site. Doesn't include institutional and entertainment I believe. I put this together pretty quick, so I'm sure someone could put together something much better.  FWIW, I believe they are over assessed, probably in order to increase the city's bond rating or something of that sort, but nonetheless potentially very valuable land.

750 Bay (Shipyards)-Assessed at $12.4 million-23.58 acres
950 Bay (Shipyards)-Assessed at $17,058,103-21.7 acres
1406 Gator Bowl Blvd-Assessed at $23,359,778-17.58 acres
1410 Gator Bowl Blvd-Assessed at $6,349,905-5.76 acres
1410 Gator Bowl Blvd #2-Assessed at $8,835,365-7.82 acres
0 Adams (near Metro Park)-Assessed at $6,309,156-11.62 acres
1530 Adams-$2,348,719-1.68 acres
0 Gator Bowl Blvd-Assessed at $3,642,829-4.24 acres
1528 Adams-Assessed at $1,434,300-1.49 acres
1430 Adams-Assessed at $2,713,880-3.14 acres
0 Adams-Assessed at $1,380,560-1.73 acres
1100 Adams-Assessed at $1,776,820-7.65 acres

How awesome would this be!

Quote from: fieldafm on May 22, 2012, 09:49:52 AM
Considering how isolated the Ford Plant is, I say the existing Shipyards site offers far more bang for the buck... right down the street from the Bay Street Entertainment District and certainly adjacent to land with similar zoning characteristics.

(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/assets/thumbs/image.1665.feature.jpg)

If Ben is looking to build from scratch, the city can seperate a specific-size parcel from this property that would fit in with the developers needs.  The sale of this land could then help to pay for the extension of the Riverwalk and the buildout of a very simple but flexible public pier (the city has already repaired the sidewalk along this stretch of Bay Street and has started to work on flood mitigation issues at the mouht of Hogans Creek).  Jim Love had an idea about selling private monuments and bricks to also offset some of this cost with private funds (Landmar already did a good chunk of the work by repairing the bulkheads).

This would be in line with the previous suggestions offered here of emulating the Columbus Commons model of downsizing the land by splitting it up and letting the site evolve naturally with builtin public amenities surrounding the property (pier, riverwalk, Hogans Creek)... instead of relying on a big-idea, risky mega-development 'savior' that has already failed not once, but twice on this very same land. 

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Columbus-Commons/Both-Plans/974611805_do7Ba-M.jpg)

This is a great idea.  Councilman Love mentioned using signed bricks as a fundraising tool when I was speaking with him along with Aaron Bowman the Duval county representative with FIND who we're also at the press conference at Tillie Fowler Regional Park for Mayor Alvin Brown's new People and Parks connection program.

Councilman Love asked me who's district is the pier in and I told him that it was in councilman Redman's district. Councilman Redman here is an opportunity again to legislatively protect the pier for the people of Jacksonville. Shipyards III Restore the Public Trust. Mentioned to commissioner Bowman about 2012-402. We are a joke.

The highlight of the press conference for me was When Mayor Brown after his statements opened it up for questions and I asked him about being one of his biggest cheerleaders and working with him and the commissioners of FIND for the upcoming 2013 FIND grant application and how the Pier could be part of his Parks connection. The pier would go a long way in making Downtown a Destination and not a pass through. I'm believing in Mayor Brown on this one.

Mark Middlebrook with the SJRA was there and I should have asked him if the Alliance would support a resolution to that effect for the pier that could then be presented to the Jacksonville city council. The board is meeting later this month and this is another huge opportunity. The last time I attempted this the other counties representing the Alliance were supportive but it was our own city that was opposed. Not good. Anyone going to the meeting?

I think this would be a super location for Intuition Ale. Would they support the first 25-50' of the pier as a canoe and kayak launch? How about some bicycle racks?

My first reaction is that the group that is wanting to bring the USS Adams 2010-675 has expressed interest in this location numerous times for either a permanent or temporary basis. Ben, How would you like to have the Adams next door? The Adams group has said they can live with a canoe and kayak launch on the first 25-50' of the pier. Just to emphasize the number one reaso to have a canoe and kayak launch at this location is safety.

The plan for this city moving forward is an expanded Entertainment District. I'm All In. Do we have a choice?

I didn't get great shots of it on Saturday but here's Columbus Commons (the place in Field's post above).  There was a festival going on and the area was blocked off.  Nevertheless, you can make out where they've designed their permanent green space and temporary lawns that will one day be developed into complementing private uses.

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Columbus-Ohio/i-rCpwDnk/0/M/P1560880-M.jpg)

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Columbus-Ohio/i-tnNM7fQ/0/M/P1560882-M.jpg)

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Columbus-Ohio/i-X3sxqxx/0/M/P1560909-M.jpg)

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Columbus-Ohio/i-53GvX5X/0/M/P1560910-M.jpg)

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Columbus-Ohio/i-p6Q4Jbq/0/M/P1560911-M.jpg)

Ben, is this the old spot where Prudential used to have a trailer to sell Shipyard properties? I believe it is, great spot either way, guess you would not need the party in Lot H any longer, would be nice to boat to the games, instead of parking in Lot J.

^It looks like the spot just east of where the trailer used to be.  I believe this is where the first Trilegacy Shipyards condo building was under construction when the city pulled the plug.

Guess the shipyyard plan is pretty much dead..

http://jacksonville.com/business/2012-07-15/story/sunday-notebook-intuition-still-looking-downtown-site

Quote from: Rynjny on July 15, 2012, 10:53:06 AM
Guess the shipyyard plan is pretty much dead..

http://jacksonville.com/business/2012-07-15/story/sunday-notebook-intuition-still-looking-downtown-site

What bothers me most is the comment about just brewing at the airport or westside ...

The Springfield warehouse district can be utilized for this.  I know that a few buildings can be had for peanuts.  Even if they do not have the needed ceiling height, the roofs can be raised for less than the cost of new. As light industrial, they can have 10% retail so they may not need to get a PUD.  The area is mostly outside of the Historic District so less costly to modify the building. 

Think of the old Coca Cola building with the complete block of empty one story buildings behind it.  The old one story buildings could be utilized by raising the currently nonexistent roofs. A little bit of creativity and one could probably have a great complex for a very affordable price. Just an example, I do not know what issues those particular properties may have.

They were a pioneer in an area before, hopefully they will decide to do it again.  Springfield is still pretty much downtown and the warehouse district certainly meets all of their needs - zoning, transportation and future potential.

Very distressing that the City still seems to be hoping for some developer to hit Home Run and do the whole site.  That has worked so well so far.  Go for a single!  Having Intuition on the west end should spur more development to the east.

Yeah, if they can't find a suitable downtown site, I'd hate for them to end up in a random industrial park. Something in the Springfield Warehouse District, Lavilla, Myrtle Avenue, or Beaver near the farmer's market, would be cool. I'd love to see this project be the catalyst that energizes another urban district.

An additional thought ... was it that the city said "no, we don't want to break up the Shipyards"? or that - as seems to be the norm with this administration - they never got an answer?

Yeah well I think the article made it clear.  I guess a f'n carnival on the site sounds better.  I wonder if our cities administers really take pride in doing such a shitty job.  Sorry for the profanity, but this crap is getting old. 

Quote from: jcjohnpaint on July 15, 2012, 04:05:44 PM
Yeah well I think the article made it clear.  I guess a f'n carnival on the site sounds better.  I wonder if our cities administers really take pride in doing such a shitty job.  Sorry for the profanity, but this crap is getting old. 

+1000

Quote from: jcjohnpaint on July 15, 2012, 04:05:44 PM
Yeah well I think the article made it clear.  I guess a f'n carnival on the site sounds better.  I wonder if our cities administers really take pride in doing such a shitty job.  Sorry for the profanity, but this crap is getting old.

Don't you understand? Angel Financiers might come and buy the entire site and build a giant mixed-use megaplex that will draw millions of visitors AND residents to Downtown Jax. We can't sell any part of it to an actual business who wants to do something with it. Better to let the whole thing sit than part of it find use, which might lead to other businesses wanting to move there.

The Westside or the airport area. God bless those guys for wanting to stay in Jax because I would just flat-out be ready to leave.

Quote from: Charles Hunter on July 15, 2012, 02:21:27 PM
An additional thought ... was it that the city said "no, we don't want to break up the Shipyards"? or that - as seems to be the norm with this administration - they never got an answer?

Remember that the new plan is the creation of a new Downtown Authority. Total Govt. control over an expanded Entertainment District. What is existing in this yet to be identified boundaries of this District? Parking will be a primary revenue source to fund this new Authority.

The Shipyards/Landmar 2010-604 site is a central and primary control point of this Entertainment District.  If Intuition Ale a local success story in their own right wanted to build and create economic opportunity on what has been failed attempts in the past on this west part of this property then the city should be jumping up and down and supporting this attempt.

Look at the existing skeletons that line this area. Adam St. Station 24 empty railroad cars under an FDOT overpass. The Bay club that has been sitting empty for how long. Do they just open during special events?

Intuition Ale if it was their decision to attempt a business at this location should be given the green light by the city. The business centers around providing a product for Entertainment. If they have asked and have been told no that should be a huge red flag. 
We are so LOST.

Another thing that really bothers me is that there are no reader comments on this article in the TU.  People just don't seem to care.  When Mayor Brown wants to fire 300 people to prevent taxes from going up, everyone is in comment celebration.  People have to understand that issues are not always black and white.  The site was small (probably would be out of site if a developer came from the sky for this parcel).  The brewery would have added so much vibrancy and revenue to a wasteland. 

The Shipyards property is very expensive, but there are plenty of other areas downtown that would work. It would be tremendous for downtown. It sucks that the city and whatever the JEDC is called now haven't gotten it together enough to help it along.

Possible Developer 20 Years From Now Discretely Talking to a Government Official:

"Now let's be clear.  For decades you couldn't sell this property successfully because you'd only do it one way. And you're still only willing to do it one way. And there's not a lot of vibrancy around this property right now.  There's a lot of risk, obviously that's been proven.  All around the place private development failed.  You failed. You failed repeatedly. There's a lot of space, no a ton of space.  Whatever vision you have forget it.  We'll work with you to incorporate elements of your vision, that's fine.  But you need to prepare for some serious compromises: We might feel better with a few gated areas, the right to reserve all those areas we developed for you, such as the public spaces, parts of the river walk, and the public section of the semi-public pier for private events. I like your city, but you want us to assume a shit load of risk with a shit load of money.  Take the same money and build something a bit smaller in a larger, more vibrant city.  That's probably what we should do anyway."       


     

Quote from: strider on July 15, 2012, 11:35:48 AM

Quote from: Rynjny on July 15, 2012, 10:53:06 AM
Guess the shipyyard plan is pretty much dead..

http://jacksonville.com/business/2012-07-15/story/sunday-notebook-intuition-still-looking-downtown-site

What bothers me most is the comment about just brewing at the airport or westside ...

The Springfield warehouse district can be utilized for this.  I know that a few buildings can be had for peanuts.  Even if they do not have the needed ceiling height, the roofs can be raised for less than the cost of new. As light industrial, they can have 10% retail so they may not need to get a PUD.  The area is mostly outside of the Historic District so less costly to modify the building. 

Think of the old Coca Cola building with the complete block of empty one story buildings behind it.  The old one story buildings could be utilized by raising the currently nonexistent roofs. A little bit of creativity and one could probably have a great complex for a very affordable price. Just an example, I do not know what issues those particular properties may have.

They were a pioneer in an area before, hopefully they will decide to do it again.  Springfield is still pretty much downtown and the warehouse district certainly meets all of their needs - zoning, transportation and future potential.

The new Paul Davis Restoration office , which moved from Mandarin and renovated an empty SPR warehouse, should be opening it's doors in a couple months. They did an amazing job. A second warehouse reclaimed would be tremendous.

1 is a coincidense, 2 is a trend . . . .

I just wanted it on the waterfront so bad. How can we drop the ball on this. 

Quote from: JeffreyS on July 16, 2012, 10:48:19 AM
I just wanted it on the waterfront so bad. How can we drop the ball on this.

Sports metaphors, ok:  The city is the petulant 24 year old, still sitting on the sidelines at the Pop Warner field because no one is willing be bring the ball that 'they' want to play with.  "We don't want to play, unless it's an Authentic Wilson NFL Branded, Duke Pattern ball, and we'll sit here and pout until that happens."  Meanwhile, several of their peers have decided to play with whatever ball was on the field and are now reaping the benefits.

We're still sitting on the sidelines.

Did someone buy the Huttig Sash building on Market Street?

Figured the forum would enjoy reading this older article on a city that get's what a craft brewery had bring to the area...

Why the froth over Surly? Brewery project draws broad interest
Posted: 8:00 am Fri, September 30, 2011   
By Chris Newmarker   
Tags: Annie Deckert, Brian Hanson, Cathy Polasky, Curt Boganey, Janelle Tummel, Louis Jambois, Matt Podhradsky, Omar Ansari, R.T. Rybak, Surly Brewing Co., Tegra Group, Tom Hauschild

A rendering of Surly’s proposed $20 million, 60,000-square-foot brewery and beer garden. (Submitted rendering: Surly Brewing Co.)
Economic development officials insist they are not wearing beer goggles as they try to woo the $20 million, 60,000-square-foot brewery and beer garden that the Surly Brewing Co. would like to build in the Twin Cities.

“Dozens” of metro area cities have already submitted information to the Minneapolis-based Tegra Group, which Brooklyn Center-based Surly tapped in August to advise on the project, said Tom Hauschild, a partner at Tegra.

Surly and Tegra officials hope to focus on a handful of sites within 30 days.

In general, city officials insist the proposed brewery goes beyond the dozens of jobs or added tax base it might create. They say it would add cachet and enhance the quality of life in their communities.

“It’s very much a destination location.  … It would bring so many people to Elk River,” said Annie Deckert, Elk River’s economic development director, who is researching locations there to pitch to Surly and Tegra.

Hauschild says he and Surly president and founder Omar Ansari have been surprised by the interest. Hauschild attributes it to Surly’s enthusiastic customers, the so-called Surly Nation, who successfully lobbied to change state law to allow breweries to sell pints on site. Now they are reaching out to local officials to tout the proposed brewery. “City administrators are listening to them and responding,” Hauschild said.

Surly has a profitable business selling beers ranging from its hops-heavy Furious beer to the lighter CynicAle. Revenue has grown from $250,000 in 2006, its first full year of operations, to $4.7 million in 2010. Demand has outstripped production, and Surly has stopped selling its products in Wisconsin, South Dakota and Illinois to concentrate on its Twin Cities turf.

The new brewery would be Surly’s second; its existing 24,000-square-foot facility is at 4811 Dusharme Drive in Brooklyn Center.

Surly’s plans have inspired Minneapolis Mayor R.T. Rybak to wax on about how his great-grandfather brewed beer in New Prague, with the mayor arguing that Surly needs to build along the Mississippi River north of downtown.


Dozens of Twin Cities communities would like to see Surly beer rolling off the assembly line, just as they do at the beer maker’s 24,000-square-foot facility at 4811 Dusharme Drive in Brooklyn Center. Surly is proposing spending $20 million on a second metro area brewery that would include a beer garden. (Submitted photo: Surly Brewing Co.)
Minneapolis has yet to make a former proposal to Surly. But Cathy Polasky, the city’s economic development director, acknowledges that it would be an attractive business for the city because it would provide some well-paying manufacturing jobs as well as another “cool gathering place.”

Polasky also mentioned the city has done a great deal to encourage local food and beer. “This fits right into the sweet spot for Minneapolis’ economic development,” she said.

St. Paul officials have already toured a handful of sites with Surly and Tegra officials, said city spokeswoman Janelle Tummel. Specifically, the St. Paul Port Authority has pitched its Beacon Bluff and River Bend projects, which are both redeveloping old industrial sites in the city. Surly might potentially secure a $1-for-land deal not too different from the Port Authority land deal in the late 1990s that resulted in Summit Brewing building a brewery on a 4.2-acre site in the Crosby Lake Business Park.

Summit, with 56 well-paying jobs, is a great asset to St. Paul, and Surly could be, too, said Port Authority President Louis Jambois. “We are always looking for ways to diversify St. Paul’s economy,” he said.

In Chaska, city administrator Matt Podhradsky sees a potential use for the 12-acre Chaska Building Center lumberyard on the edge of downtown, at 2970 Chaska Blvd., that closed three years ago. Meanwhile, Brooklyn Center’s city administrator Curt Boganey has staff looking for potential sites to propose to Surly in the hopes of keeping it all in the city.

Twin Cities officials aren’t alone, either, in their mania for beer. If Lake Superior Brewing Co. ever proposed building a new brewery and beer garden in either Duluth or Superior, Wis., Duluth’s economic development chief, Brian Hanson, says he would also be working hard to make sure Duluth won the business.

“Not only do they manufacture, but they’re a tourist attraction,” Hanson said.

Anthony Figliola, a New York-based consultant who helps large companies find new locations around the country, has found that breweries are an attractive option for a community in any economic climate.

“Beer and baseball â€" that’s America right there,” Figliola said. “There’s a cachet with having a company like that.”

Saw one of your full length tractor-trailer distribution trucks pullng out of the Mandarin Publix this morning with its shiny vinyl "Intuition" badge gleaming the the morning sunlight and my tastebuds almost yanked my tongue out of my head.  I was instantly craving a Peoples.... yes, even at 7:30 this morning.  :)

Things are looking up.  I'm sure a perfect second location will fall from the heavens when the time is right.  ;)

Ben, buy Monty's tear it down and build a 5-story facility in Avondale. John will thank you at Mellow Mushroom, for taking the heat off him, and becoming the new lightening rod for the neighborhood.

Best of luck to you in your endeavors, from mug club member 167.

Ben - I really hope/wish the City would work with you downtown on the river.  Why we don't have more waterfront dining establishments, I have no idea.  Dinner, after work, before/after Jags game and another place to boat to on a regular basis.  AWESOME!  Besides, it could/would encourage other companies to move in the surrounding areas.

#34

Quote from: KEGreene1 on July 26, 2012, 11:04:47 PM
Ben - I really hope/wish the City would work with you downtown on the river.  Why we don't have more waterfront dining establishments, I have no idea.  Dinner, after work, before/after Jags game and another place to boat to on a regular basis.  AWESOME!  Besides, it could/would encourage other companies to move in the surrounding areas.

#34

Seconded. Chart House may not have the best (or most reasonably priced) food, and it's not a particularly urban/walkable site, but the view is just so great.

I am curious...how much is Intuition willing to pay for the portion of the Shipyards property they want?