So, this morning I logged onto my computer and checked Yahoo.com. I was shocked to see a picture of Jacksonville staring back at me!
Apparently, home prices in Jax are way too high, according to the boffins at Yahoo Finance:
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/cities-with-least-realistic-home-prices.html (http://finance.yahoo.com/news/cities-with-least-realistic-home-prices.html)
Interesting tidbit:
"In some markets, sellers aren’t getting what they’re asking for or anywhere near it. In the Atlanta metro area, for instance, the median list price was $150,000 in December, according to Realtor.com. But the median sales price was just $90,600 at the end of the year, according to the latest data from the NAR. In Jacksonville, Fla., the median listing price is 34% higher than the median sales price, while in Washington D.C. it’s 13% higher."
I knew that housing prices in Riverside, etc were a bit steep, but I didn't realise this was a city-wide issue. Thoughts?
My realtor advised me to start offering at 50% of list, and expect to close 30% below list. In his words, a lot of sellers (out-of-town banks especially), are "delusional".
Look at the combined cost of home ownership and transportation.
Suburban houses going to be relatively overpriced as travel costs go up, and as funds dry up for new road construction.
I have been looking primarily at places in Riverside, Avondale, DT and San Marco. Am buying a rental property in Orange Park though, because it's so cheap.
My house, when I bought it in 2009, had been listed for about a year at $225k. When we finally closed in October 2009 the price was $150k. Which is pretty much dead on with that 34% figure.
I remember at the time saying to my realtor "There's no way we can afford this." "So we'll offer $150." "Are you crazy?! They'll never come down that much!" Surprise, surprise.
Quote from: Dashing Dan on April 21, 2012, 07:52:45 AM
Look at the combined cost of home ownership and transportation.
Suburban houses going to be relatively overpriced as travel costs go up, and as funds dry up for new road construction.
Bingo. What exactly are people getting for that $1500 mortgage payment + 2 cars (gas, insurance, payments)?? And God help you if you have kids & have to send them to private schools.
Yes, its overpriced. There's no quality of life return on investment here.
IMO in the cities with the 'least realistic' housing prices just requires alot of savvy haggling like JFMan mentioned, and the supposed 'most realistic' home prices in high density urban areas are the ones that are truly overpriced; You're paying 6K more in Beantown no matter what. And nobody is gonna convince me that everything in freaking Tampa of all places is so rosy, I always been very skeptical of yahoo articles (mostly in sports).
Quote from: I-10east on April 21, 2012, 08:03:23 AM
IMO in the cities with the 'least realistic' housing prices just requires alot of savvy haggling like JFMan mentioned, and the supposed 'most realistic' home prices in high density urban areas are the ones that are truly overpriced; You're paying 6K in Beantown more no matter what. And nobody is gonna convince me that everything in freaking Tampa of all places is so rosy, I always been very skeptical of yahoo articles (mostly in sports).
I'm very partial to Tampa. That said, it might just mean that people are more willing to pay the asking price for the home. In other words: Tampa has more demand for housing. I don't know if that's true or if I totally miss the point of the article.
Is Tampa experiencing more growth than Jax these days?
^^^Read the Tampa paragraph. That estate agent said "One month we're improving, and next were not" and he used the word "spotty" doesn't sound very stable. I don't understand why MJers with an affiliation with another city take everything so personally.
Quote from: JFman00 on April 21, 2012, 07:55:19 AM
I have been looking primarily at places in Riverside, Avondale, DT and San Marco. Am buying a rental property in Orange Park though, because it's so cheap.
With the added costs for transportation, maybe the property in orange park is not so cheap after all.
That's another one of those unique Jacksonville attitude things. Everybody, from antique stores, to car dealers, to people selling a house, think whatever they've got is worth a million dollars. I have lived here 12 going on 13 years, and I have never bought a car here, you can't get a decent deal. Almost everything in my house came from somewhere else, I can't get a decent deal in town. I mean, I've had these absurd arguments with people where I pull out the iphone and show them that whatever it is we're haggling over costs less brand new with free shipping on the internet and they still won't budge. I just had that same argument with a mortgage broker who was selling off her office furniture on Craigslist last week, I wanted the leather sofa and she wanted more for it used than it sold for new, and was a real bitch about it. Ok, well what do you think I'm gonna do? Ordered it online. I've had that happen hundreds of times since I've lived here.
When I used to be into real estate, I bought everything from the banks, they're the only sellers in town who are rational. The locals are downright delusional. It's an apartment building, if the rent won't cover the mortgage wtf is the point of buying it? "We think we'll get that." Ok, good luck. Doesn't matter what the item is, it's usually overpriced in Jacksonville. I buy clothes here and I do alright on that, but anything else and it's usually waaaaaaaaay overpriced.
Quote from: Dashing Dan on April 21, 2012, 08:21:21 AM
Quote from: JFman00 on April 21, 2012, 07:55:19 AM
I have been looking primarily at places in Riverside, Avondale, DT and San Marco. Am buying a rental property in Orange Park though, because it's so cheap.
With the added costs for transportation, maybe the property in orange park is not so cheap after all.
Doesn't matter to me. I'm not the one paying the rent. Just profiting from the ones that do think it's a good idea.
Quote from: I-10east on April 21, 2012, 08:17:54 AM
^^^Read the Tampa paragraph. That estate agent said "One month we're improving, and next were not" and he used the word "spotty" doesn't sound very stable. I don't understand why MJers with an affiliation with another city take everything so personally.
Yeah, I read the entire article before I posted it. What I am trying to get my head around is why the asking price and the going price are so close (and why Jacksonville's aren't). Even if things are spotty in Tampa, the numbers are what they are.
I like Tampa and enjoyed living there. If I moved back to Florida, I'd probably move to Jacksonville, though 8)
^^^I'm not gonna pretend like I'm an expert with intricate real estate finances; I'll put it this way, if you can get a decent price for a house here in Jax with some savvy haggling, then I don't think that the 'inflated house prices' are that much of a big deal, but if we cannot with sellers stonewalling at ridiculous prices (like ChrisW alluded to) then that's definitely not a good thing.
Quote from: I-10east on April 21, 2012, 08:43:32 AM
^^^I'm not gonna pretend like I'm an expert with intricate real estate finances; I'll put it this way, if you can get a decent price for a house here in Jax with some savvy haggling, then I don't think that the 'inflated house prices' are that much of a big deal, but if we cannot with sellers stonewalling at ridiculous prices (like ChrisW eluded to) then that's definitely not a good thing.
Fair enough. I suck at haggling. But I'd rather try hard to get a home at a decent price than get taken to the cleaners!
At the risk of going totally off-piste here, I will say something about Tampa: I think that whole region does a great job of marketing its strongest assets: the bay, the ocean and the natural environment in general.
I think Jax can compete with that. Sure, we don't have Tampa Bay. But we have a pretty awesome river. The St John's is massive and it's easily Jacksonville's greatest asset. And our beaches are gorgeous and wide. With a bit of planning, investment and marketing, I think Jax could really take off as a destination for outdoorsy-types. We need more stuff like the Baldwin rail trail (or whatever it's called).
Get the locals out of the bars and out in the sunshine. The RAM was a great idea and I think more stuff like that, stuff that showcases the river, is just what the city needs. I'd rather live in a revitalised Downtown Jax than in Tampa any day of the week.
Quote from: JFman00 on April 21, 2012, 08:22:12 AM
Quote from: Dashing Dan on April 21, 2012, 08:21:21 AM
Quote from: JFman00 on April 21, 2012, 07:55:19 AM
I have been looking primarily at places in Riverside, Avondale, DT and San Marco. Am buying a rental property in Orange Park though, because it's so cheap.
With the added costs for transportation, maybe the property in orange park is not so cheap after all.
Doesn't matter to me. I'm not the one paying the rent. Just profiting from the ones that do think it's a good idea.
point taken!
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on April 21, 2012, 08:21:40 AM
That's another one of those unique Jacksonville attitude things. Everybody, from antique stores, to car dealers, to people selling a house, think whatever they've got is worth a million dollars. I have lived here 12 going on 13 years, and I have never bought a car here, you can't get a decent deal. Almost everything in my house came from somewhere else, I can't get a decent deal in town. I mean, I've had these absurd arguments with people where I pull out the iphone and show them that whatever it is we're haggling over costs less brand new with free shipping on the internet and they still won't budge. I just had that same argument with a mortgage broker who was selling off her office furniture on Craigslist last week, I wanted the leather sofa and she wanted more for it used than it sold for new, and was a real bitch about it. Ok, well what do you think I'm gonna do? Ordered it online. I've had that happen hundreds of times since I've lived here.
When I used to be into real estate, I bought everything from the banks, they're the only sellers in town who are rational. The locals are downright delusional. It's an apartment building, if the rent won't cover the mortgage wtf is the point of buying it? "We think we'll get that." Ok, good luck. Doesn't matter what the item is, it's usually overpriced in Jacksonville. I buy clothes here and I do alright on that, but anything else and it's usually waaaaaaaaay overpriced.
I think that's people in general though. I blame Antiques Roadshow and Storage Wars and other stuff on TV that makes it look like your junk is worth a fortune. In reality, guess what, your used couch is just a used couch and if it ain't cheap I'll just buy a new one. "But I paid $600 for it!" Yeah, and?
Same thing for houses. "I paid $350k for it, I need to get at least that much out of it!" Sorry buddy, nobody wants it at that price. You either come down or you sit on that house the rest of your life.
My wife and I just bought a home at the end of last year, and it was a total nightmare. We had 3 deals fall through for various reasons, and the one we got almost fell through about a dozen times. A ton of other houses we liked were gone before we could put in a bid or schedule a showing. The house we eventually bought was a short sale and took about 5 months to close the deal from contract to closing.
I can tell you a lot of investors were buying up property, and the banks were nearly impossible to work with on both ends. The sellers bank had rejected 2 other people before us who had offered list price because it was less than what they wanted to get for it. Of course, it would have never sold for the price they wanted to get for it. The bank tried to drive the price up on us, but we refused to pay a dime more than our original offer, and they caved. Don't even get me started on my bank. I'll just say that I will never get a loan through Chase ever again.
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on April 21, 2012, 08:21:40 AM
That's another one of those unique Jacksonville attitude things. Everybody, from antique stores, to car dealers, to people selling a house, think whatever they've got is worth a million dollars.
When I used to be into real estate, I bought everything from the banks, they're the only sellers in town who are rational. The locals are downright delusional. It's an apartment building, if the rent won't cover the mortgage wtf is the point of buying it? "We think we'll get that." Ok, good luck. Doesn't matter what the item is, it's usually overpriced in Jacksonville. I buy clothes here and I do alright on that, but anything else and it's usually waaaaaaaaay overpriced.
This is what I'm experiencing right now. Looking at some investments in Riverside. Bar none, everyone I've talked to thinks they can get about 4-5 times what their home/property is worth. Talked to someone yesterday on Herschel who thinks they're going to get around $250k for their home. The pool is in violation of city code. The house is falling in on itself. The plumbing runs into the backyard. And when you point this stuff out...well...they give you that look as in "Go screw yourself, I know what I'm going to get for this property."
Had a similar experience with an apartment complex. They want over 1/2 a million for it. The rent roll won't even cover the friendliest mortgage around. They scoff and say "we know what it's worth."
Drives me insane.
Quote from: Bativac on April 21, 2012, 11:04:06 AM
"But I paid $600 for it!" Yeah, and? Same thing for houses. "I paid $350k for it, I need to get at least that much out of it!" Sorry buddy, nobody wants it at that price. You either come down or you sit on that house the rest of your life.
I see this too. My rule of thumb (along with many on here, I assume): "It's only worth what someone is willing to pay for it."
Sellers HATE to hear that one...
Does anyone know if the statistics are skewed in Jacksonville? For instance, are the suburbs still oversupplied and a difficult sell? Are places like Riverside and San Marco and Springfield seeing appreciation? From what I have heard, there is actually only a 5-6 month "supply" of inventory in the market and all submarkets are still coming down.
I ask this because another city that was mentioned in the article was Atlanta where the median was $150K and the sale price was $90K. I haven't heard numbers that low, but I do know there is still something like a 2 year supply of homes in the mass of sprawling suburbs that are impossible to sell, and the foreclosures are still rampant. At the same time, the City of Atlanta has seen some appreciation, and the median home price there in some of the inner neighborhoods are between $400K-$1M, and supply is obviously tight as more people try to move in.
Quote from: Bativac on April 21, 2012, 11:04:06 AM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on April 21, 2012, 08:21:40 AM
That's another one of those unique Jacksonville attitude things. Everybody, from antique stores, to car dealers, to people selling a house, think whatever they've got is worth a million dollars. I have lived here 12 going on 13 years, and I have never bought a car here, you can't get a decent deal. Almost everything in my house came from somewhere else, I can't get a decent deal in town. I mean, I've had these absurd arguments with people where I pull out the iphone and show them that whatever it is we're haggling over costs less brand new with free shipping on the internet and they still won't budge. I just had that same argument with a mortgage broker who was selling off her office furniture on Craigslist last week, I wanted the leather sofa and she wanted more for it used than it sold for new, and was a real bitch about it. Ok, well what do you think I'm gonna do? Ordered it online. I've had that happen hundreds of times since I've lived here.
When I used to be into real estate, I bought everything from the banks, they're the only sellers in town who are rational. The locals are downright delusional. It's an apartment building, if the rent won't cover the mortgage wtf is the point of buying it? "We think we'll get that." Ok, good luck. Doesn't matter what the item is, it's usually overpriced in Jacksonville. I buy clothes here and I do alright on that, but anything else and it's usually waaaaaaaaay overpriced.
I think that's people in general though. I blame Antiques Roadshow and Storage Wars and other stuff on TV that makes it look like your junk is worth a fortune. In reality, guess what, your used couch is just a used couch and if it ain't cheap I'll just buy a new one. "But I paid $600 for it!" Yeah, and?
Same thing for houses. "I paid $350k for it, I need to get at least that much out of it!" Sorry buddy, nobody wants it at that price. You either come down or you sit on that house the rest of your life.
Yeah I used to think that, but after the 400th time I ran up against the Jacksonville brick wall of unreasonable bullshit, and then went somewhere else and bought the same thing for less, I realized it's actually this city. I have this problem nowhere else, so I basically just quit buying anything here. People are, I don't want to call it uninformed, but it's something along those lines, a basic lack of understanding of how to negotiate. They figure out what they want for whatever it is they're selling, then if anyone tries to negotiate with them on price, they get all flustered and take it as some kind of personal insult. Tell me with a straight face you don't know exactly what I'm talking about. Everywhere else, a negotiation is just a negotiation, not a pissing contest.
Chris, I see what you're saying. But, does that explain why I'm running into this problem with national, even multinational real estate companies? I expected it from Joe Blow on Herschel, but not from _________ (rather not call them out by name yet) who sells real estate everywhere from NYC to Belize.
Because at the end of the day they're just the broker, the person with the authority to actually make the deal you want is very likely based here and steeped in that same mentality. If it's a local owner then there you go, and if it's a bank, most of them have regional servicing offices, many of them based here. Even if not, they're relying on advice from local appraisers and REO management firms who recommend prices. I shit you not, if you think I'm kidding about this being a Jacksonville thing, go anywhere else. You can get people in other cities down on the phone before you've even looked at it more than they'll budge here.
I've had great success buying and selling locally on Craigslist. From used pool pumps and filters to home furnishings. I even got $250 for my used Bob stroller to the secong guy who came to see it.
Reale estate valuations/transactions are based on appraisals. Any decent Realtor can do a BPO (Broker Price Opinion), a non binding determination of value that should be accurate to about 10%. Investments properties
are valued by the rent roll. Very few investors will pay more than 100 times the gross monthly rent. Most want a better ratio. If you can get one at 50 times the monthly rent then that is usually very attractive.
The comment "My Realtor said offer 50% of list price" is laughable. That implies every Realtor in Jax is clueless. Many are excellent, many are bad. There are plenty of recent closing where sellers are getting close to the asking price. There are also properties priced below fair market value, in hopes of generating multiple offers and getting a price above the ask. I am seeing this quite a bit.
Renter's are paying well over $1000 (monthly) for properties around Five Points, Riverside Market Square, and in Avondale. The rental market in the RAP area is strong. My buddy owns several props and rarely has a vacancy for more than 1 month. He gets $620 for a nice 1 bed 1 bath and up to $750 for 2 bed 1 bath place. His apartments are nice but not luxurious.
Real estate tip: Buy location first. A leaky roof can be fixed. A crappy location, not so easy.
QuoteI buy clothes here and I do alright on that, but anything else and it's usually waaaaaaaaay overpriced.
Its a trade off, really. I can get clothes online with sales and get a good deal, I do that cause everything is at my fingertips, on sale and I hate the malls. I don't need to go to St. Johns Town Center for stuff, like others, I buy most of my needs, from Craigslist (Its amazing the stuff people would rather sell for half off their retail value).
My wife is a Realtor and she has 1.9 million under contract right now, she has been a Realtor now for 5 years in Avondale, and she is really good at knowing values of properties. Our prices are coming back in the historic areas of town and the beach. As people get better jobs, and prices rise, they can afford to leave and take a job elsewhere. Lots more homes on the market at realistic prices AND the cheap bastard investors are finding deals harder and harder to find, so the pendulum is swinging to a Buyers market, maybe not as crazy as 2005/2006, but we are headed up.
Like Chris, I have never purchased an Auto here in Jax. Its ridiculous that the car dealers think their rubber is worth 2k more, but they must have a burr up their butts cause its nuts what they ask for cars. Now with auto trader and Craigslist, I can get info on a car anywhere and with carfax, all the history. So it must be all the idiots in Jacksonville buying cars who feel like they are getting the deal they want. I don't know, but there are better options elsewhere for sure with cars.
On another note, just finished a shift at a RAP house, we had 600+ people in 3 hours at our house. It was amazing!
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on April 21, 2012, 11:47:49 AM
Quote from: Bativac on April 21, 2012, 11:04:06 AM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on April 21, 2012, 08:21:40 AM
That's another one of those unique Jacksonville attitude things. Everybody, from antique stores, to car dealers, to people selling a house, think whatever they've got is worth a million dollars. I have lived here 12 going on 13 years, and I have never bought a car here, you can't get a decent deal. Almost everything in my house came from somewhere else, I can't get a decent deal in town. I mean, I've had these absurd arguments with people where I pull out the iphone and show them that whatever it is we're haggling over costs less brand new with free shipping on the internet and they still won't budge. I just had that same argument with a mortgage broker who was selling off her office furniture on Craigslist last week, I wanted the leather sofa and she wanted more for it used than it sold for new, and was a real bitch about it. Ok, well what do you think I'm gonna do? Ordered it online. I've had that happen hundreds of times since I've lived here.
When I used to be into real estate, I bought everything from the banks, they're the only sellers in town who are rational. The locals are downright delusional. It's an apartment building, if the rent won't cover the mortgage wtf is the point of buying it? "We think we'll get that." Ok, good luck. Doesn't matter what the item is, it's usually overpriced in Jacksonville. I buy clothes here and I do alright on that, but anything else and it's usually waaaaaaaaay overpriced.
I think that's people in general though. I blame Antiques Roadshow and Storage Wars and other stuff on TV that makes it look like your junk is worth a fortune. In reality, guess what, your used couch is just a used couch and if it ain't cheap I'll just buy a new one. "But I paid $600 for it!" Yeah, and?
Same thing for houses. "I paid $350k for it, I need to get at least that much out of it!" Sorry buddy, nobody wants it at that price. You either come down or you sit on that house the rest of your life.
Yeah I used to think that, but after the 400th time I ran up against the Jacksonville brick wall of unreasonable bullshit, and then went somewhere else and bought the same thing for less, I realized it's actually this city. I have this problem nowhere else, so I basically just quit buying anything here. People are, I don't want to call it uninformed, but it's something along those lines, a basic lack of understanding of how to negotiate. They figure out what they want for whatever it is they're selling, then if anyone tries to negotiate with them on price, they get all flustered and take it as some kind of personal insult. Tell me with a straight face you don't know exactly what I'm talking about. Everywhere else, a negotiation is just a negotiation, not a pissing contest.
If your wondering why Jacksonville is in decline. If your wondering why the urban core is having issues. If your wondering why our city leaders and residents cannot make good decisions. Chris, you have given the biggest answers out there of what's wrong with the city.
The city, as a whole, believes it's worth more then it actually is. Most the residents here believe their ideas are better than it actually is. The actual numbers, the indisputable facts says something else.
The residents here would rather sit with what they have and wait until some "big" thing finds them to prove them right instead of just sell it at what it's worth, learn a life lesson, AND MOVE ON!
Doesn't surprise me. Prices are higher like people actually want to live in Jacksonville when it's actually cheaper to live in a real city with so much more to offer. "Hey, please come live in our trashy mega-town! You pay more for much less, but still... we still believe we're better than all the rest. See? We have a Cheesecake Factory and so many different Wal-Marts to choose from, so that makes us cool!"
Jacksonville has always been a military town.
Former officers expect the rest of us to behave like enlisted men and women, but we don't fall into line that easily.
Quote from: Anti redneck on April 21, 2012, 04:01:16 PM
Doesn't surprise me. Prices are higher like people actually want to live in Jacksonville when it's actually cheaper to live in a real city with so much more to offer. "Hey, please come live in our trashy mega-town! You pay more for much less, but still... we still believe we're better than all the rest. See? We have a Cheesecake Factory and so many different Wal-Marts to choose from, so that makes us cool!"
I knew that a post like this was coming. So typical, everything here in Jax is complete garbage, and every other city in the USA is so damn appealing, gotcha. ::)
Quote from: I-10east on April 21, 2012, 06:15:45 PM
Quote from: Anti redneck on April 21, 2012, 04:01:16 PM
Doesn't surprise me. Prices are higher like people actually want to live in Jacksonville when it's actually cheaper to live in a real city with so much more to offer. "Hey, please come live in our trashy mega-town! You pay more for much less, but still... we still believe we're better than all the rest. See? We have a Cheesecake Factory and so many different Wal-Marts to choose from, so that makes us cool!"
I knew that a post like this was coming. So typical, everything here in Jax is complete garbage, and every other city in the USA is so damn appealing, gotcha. ::)
Well, maybe if this town got its act together, there wouldn't be posts like this.
Conservative population that consistently votes incorrectly. Lack of mass transit. Searing summer heat. Thousands of acres of grid planted pine trees. An airport that is in the middle of, well, God knows where due to the military bases. Need i go from there?
Oh yeah, pine trees are definitely a bad thing, heat is great in Miami, but here in Jax it sucks, and our airport should be near the skyline because every airport in America is... Don't let me get start on freakin Chicago of all places, with it's sub-arctic temperatures, violent Vice Lords, and tons of other gangs, and that so called pizza, just leave that to NY okay! More people will come from Chicago to Jax to live than vice-versa trust me!
The proximity of the airport is an economic plus anywhere my friend. I was born and raised in Jacksonville, but, having lived here in Chicago for the past 5 years I can say that you guys down there are getting screwed in terms of mass transit. The city of Chicago provides well for it's citizens in so many ways. My transit card cost me $78 a month. I spend $25 a day for fuel, not to mention ins and tag and car payment, when Im at my Jax residence.
And as to the "violent Vice Lords", well....., that element is surely as present in the River City as the Windy City. The only difference is that you have 1 million people v 10 million in the Chicago SMA. Come to Chicago and you will see for yourself. You guys are getting screwed by your ultra conservative Republican governance down there.
There's plenty of people in Jax that uses JTA, it's not Chicago by no means as you know, but it seems to get the job done; Now someone will open up the obligatory can of worms saying, one hour long waits (with some buses not all), we should get streetcar blah blah blah, but JTA as is have plenty of commuters that rely on it to go to work, college etc, so it's not like we live in Starke, FL or something.
Quote from: Tonyinchicago on April 21, 2012, 10:10:38 PM
And as to the "violent Vice Lords", well....., that element is surely as present in the River City as the Windy City. The only difference is that you have 1 million people v 10 million in the Chicago SMA. Come to Chicago and you will see for yourself. You guys are getting screwed by your ultra conservative Republican governance down there.
Even if you consider the 'per capita' logic it's still no comparison. I don't see any any prominent gang activity here in Jax at all, you cant say the same about Chicago. Was Jax ever featured in an episode of 'Gangland'? No.
Fair enough. But.....we have "transit trackers" apps here for our iPhones that post arrival times for either busses or trains (subways). Most transit , bus or train, is available every 5 to 10 minutes, 24/7. Who needs a car? You have no idea what it's like not to have the burden of a vehicle . And yes, the winters can be brutal. but those Florida summers are getting ever more intense.
No Gang activity in Jax? Really?
Then again, I know where I10 is and I suspect you are far removed from the core.
There's not to many US cities with transit on the level of Chicago. I agree these temps here in Jax are relentless, that first Jaguars game is ridiculously hot; Hopefully week two is cloudy.
C'mon Tony, you know that we don't have any real gangs here in Jax, just a bunch of wannabes. LOL
Perhaps you are correct on that account. I do not know. But i can only speak to my experience of having been born and raised in my beloved hometown city of Jacksonville and now, for the the past 5 years, lived in Chicago. And there is no comparison in the quality of life that this city provides for it's citizens. I have a unique perspective.
Jax has transit usage on par with Wilmington, DE. The bus system of *one* of Chicago's suburban collar counties has 3 times the ridership of JTA. Even Gainesville has ridership than JTA.
http://www.apta.com/resources/statistics/Documents/Ridership/2011-q4-ridership-APTA.pdf (http://www.apta.com/resources/statistics/Documents/Ridership/2011-q4-ridership-APTA.pdf)
Transit trackers are the answer. Mobile you know. Who wants to wait for transit not knowing how long that transport will arrive?
I've never taken a trip on JTA because it's not integrated on Google Maps. I only visit Chicago 2-3 times a year but have the tracker app on my phone and can plan a trip from the suburbs into the city via public transit entirely via Google Maps.
I have never taken a JTA (bus).. I had a phobia of buses until i got to Chicago. Here, the CTA passengers are well dressed professionals who use the system to get out of or into the core. Meanwhile, Rick Scott, governor of FL, rejects high speed rail development funds that went elsewhere. And guess where your tax dollars went?
Quote from: Anti redneck on April 21, 2012, 07:23:32 PM
Quote from: I-10east on April 21, 2012, 06:15:45 PM
Quote from: Anti redneck on April 21, 2012, 04:01:16 PM
Doesn't surprise me. Prices are higher like people actually want to live in Jacksonville when it's actually cheaper to live in a real city with so much more to offer. "Hey, please come live in our trashy mega-town! You pay more for much less, but still... we still believe we're better than all the rest. See? We have a Cheesecake Factory and so many different Wal-Marts to choose from, so that makes us cool!"
I knew that a post like this was coming. So typical, everything here in Jax is complete garbage, and every other city in the USA is so damn appealing, gotcha. ::)
Well, maybe if this town got its act together, there wouldn't be posts like this.
and clearly folks in other cities never say the same thing
as for the transit argument....sure there's lots of room for improvement at JTA....but comparing it to Chicago is wholly inappropriate....they have a metro area of 9 million (vs. 1 million) and a whole lot more density
Blah blah blah, I'm done with yall Jax haters on this thread tonight. Play the mandatory 'gang up on I-10east' crap like yall always do. If you don't like Jax just leave, simple!
Quote from: I-10east on April 21, 2012, 11:17:40 PM
Blah blah blah, I'm done with yall Jax haters on this thread tonight. Play the mandatory 'gang up on I-10east' crap like yall always do. If you don't like Jax just leave, simple!
The military won't let me. So I guess we're stuck with each other.
^^^I guess that I can jump back in since it's 'morning' now. Do you have a POV (to find something to do nightlife etc.)?
Quote from: tufsu1 on April 21, 2012, 11:14:04 PM
and clearly folks in other cities never say the same thing
You must have not ever visited websites of other cities (similar to MJ), or type in just about any city on urbandictionary like Baltimore, Philly etc with many jaded locals (like many of yall on MJ) that chime in. The same negative crap goes on other places too, it's just not Jax; C'mon you know that, oh I forgot, Jax is in a 'negative bubble' and everything outside of it is all rosy....
I don't have an economics degree, but it seems pretty obvious - if there are a ton of unoccupied properties, prices are too high, right? If I have a millions widgets to sell at $1 and nobody's buying, I keep lowering my price until the widgets start to move.
If the problem is property owners that are inelastic to the demands of the market (who can afford to sit on empty properties and speculate that some unforeseen upswing in the market will raise the value of their holdings)... Well, then - they'll either win big when that upswing happens, or they'll be left holding the bag when the property value of the entire city collapses a la Detroit?
Quote from: I-10east on April 22, 2012, 12:41:04 AM
Quote from: tufsu1 on April 21, 2012, 11:14:04 PM
and clearly folks in other cities never say the same thing
You must have not ever visited websites of other cities (similar to MJ), or type in just about any city on urbandictionary like Baltimore, Philly etc with many jaded locals (like many of yall on MJ) that chime in. The same negative crap goes on other places too, it's just not Jax; C'mon you know that, oh I forgot, Jax is in a 'negative bubble' and everything outside of it is all rosy....
Well, every place sucks to someone. This is true. We're considering a move to Seattle & I've seen people on those forums bitching about how the light rail only runs every 15 minutes on weekends, as opposed to every 5-10 on weekdays. Yes, whatta shame. ::) Try every 2 hours of shoddy unconnected bus service in sprawling Jax & then tell us all how horrible you have it.
My point is, its all relative to who you are, what you've experienced & what you expect from your town. I'm sure there's people in Jax who absolutely love it that we never hear from on here. But this is an urban oriented blog. And Jax has a long LONG way to go in these regards. So IMO people do have a right to bitch about that stuff. Especially the informed members here who've more than likely been around the block. Joe Blow that grew up on the westside you won't ever hear from though. He probably loves it since he doesn't know any better. Jax has too many Joe Blows that are likely ruining it for people like us who do want certain things, but thats another topic.
And look I'm not from here, and will likely not be staying, so I don't really have a dog in this fight either way. This is just a stop for us. But it is a sorry excuse for an urban lifestyle, or even a livable lifestyle for anyone who's not into that "suburban drive everywhere strip mall" type of living arrangement. And the schools are terrible. The city just doesn't provide a lot of perks for people to wanna live here & there's not a good "bang for your buck" ratio at all. And the city leaders do indeed have their heads up their asses & make horrible horrible decisions on our behalf with our tax dollars, with very little real benefits that would make a difference. This is all true, we all know this. And because other people may happen to bitch that their city doesn't do this or that doesn't excuse the facts & give Jax a pass on these things.
But I do agree that simply bitching constantly about it doesn't really do much in the grand scheme of things. I've personally never had high hopes for Jax just because of where it is (conservative southern politics), what's been done to it (the destruction, horrible transit decisions, biggest sprawl in the country, etc) & the lack of thoughtful planning & good leadership to see grand plans through. That stuff is obvious. And those things are pretty major & very difficult to fix. So I don't expect much to tell you the truth, even in the next decade or two. Which is basically why we're looking to move. No sense sitting around moaning about it if we don't have to. But I do understand too not everyone can do that & a lot are probably stuck here for one reason or another.
Quote from: I-10east on April 21, 2012, 11:17:40 PM
Blah blah blah, I'm done with yall Jax haters on this thread tonight. Play the mandatory 'gang up on I-10east' crap like yall always do. If you don't like Jax just leave, simple!
Well I'm glad you love the way things are so much. Tell me, what's going to happen when things get worse than they already are because people like yourself don't want to change things? Still look the other way and tell people to leave if they don't like watching things being driven straight into the ground? Because if a change is not made, that's what's going to happen. It's only a matter of time and the effects are just now being felt. Why fight change? Maybe if we got the things we wanted, it might even benefit you. Have you ever thought about that? Think about it!
PSU's top paragraph is typical of MJers, pick one of the best things about Seattle (15 minute light rail) and turn it against Jax, so typical.
Tufsu, I never compared Jax's transit to Chicago, that would be asinine, in fact I said that we are NOT Chicago by no means, and I went on and said not to many US transit systems are on the level of Chicago.
AR, did I ever say I didn't wanna see some things change here? No
JFman, bus ridership wise, Tampa St Pete, Jax, and G-ville are roughly in the same boat, but you convinently leave out the T Bay area, and solely make it a Jax vs G-ville thing; UF is a top US five school in enrollment, a freaking mega-university; How many of those people who aren't UF affiliated that ride the bus there? Exactly, hardly any.
Some of yall constantly try to put words in my mouth that I didn't say. Yall keep on chipping away at me with things that I didn't say, I'm a big boy, I can handle it.
Quote from: I-10east on April 22, 2012, 06:26:16 AM
PSU's top paragraph is typical of MJers, pick one of the best things about Seattle (15 minute light rail) and turn it against Jax, so typical.
You completely missed the point. You were trying your best to shake off real criticisms of the city & chalk it up to "well, every city forum has that", which I agree with. People indeed love to point our flaws & whine about them. But a lot of it seems like minor gripes instead of real structural failures that we talk about here. The weekend 15 min Seattle rail wait vs 2 hour Jax bus wait is just an example. Groups bitch about both, but ours is actually a major issue instead of just a minor inconvenience. Like, to the point of un-usability. I'd say that's a different beast all together, wouldn't you?
P.S. No, I'm not comparing Jax to Seattle (because I know that's where your mind is going). But we can talk about similar sized cities (and way smaller ones too) that blow us away in these regards if it makes you feel like its more even. And I know you hate all of this stuff & it gets old, but Jax has a lot of serious issues. And none of them seem to really be getting better. I think that's prob why you've noticed the heat being turned up lately. People are getting sick of it.
Quote from: I-10east on April 22, 2012, 12:41:04 AM
Quote from: tufsu1 on April 21, 2012, 11:14:04 PM
and clearly folks in other cities never say the same thing
You must have not ever visited websites of other cities (similar to MJ), or type in just about any city on urbandictionary like Baltimore, Philly etc with many jaded locals (like many of yall on MJ) that chime in. The same negative crap goes on other places too, it's just not Jax; C'mon you know that, oh I forgot, Jax is in a 'negative bubble' and everything outside of it is all rosy....
I was being sarcastic
Quote from: I-10east on April 22, 2012, 06:26:16 AM
Tufsu, I never compared Jax's transit to Chicago, that would be asinine, in fact I said that we are NOT Chicago by no means, and I went on and said not to many US transit systems are on the level of Chicago.
dude...relax...I am agreeing with you here....and was referring to comments made by tonyinchicago
Quote from: tufsu1 on April 22, 2012, 08:48:37 AM
Quote from: I-10east on April 22, 2012, 06:26:16 AM
Tufsu, I never compared Jax's transit to Chicago, that would be asinine, in fact I said that we are NOT Chicago by no means, and I went on and said not to many US transit systems are on the level of Chicago.
dude...relax...I am agreeing with you here....and was referring to comments made by tonyinchicago
My bad.
Quote from: tufsu1 on April 22, 2012, 08:48:37 AM
Quote from: I-10east on April 22, 2012, 06:26:16 AM
Tufsu, I never compared Jax's transit to Chicago, that would be asinine, in fact I said that we are NOT Chicago by no means, and I went on and said not to many US transit systems are on the level of Chicago.
dude...relax...I am agreeing with you here....and was referring to comments made by tonyinchicago
Now if this isn't a match made in heaven, I dunno what is. When's the ceremony?
Quote from: Brian Siebenschuh on April 22, 2012, 01:30:38 AM
I don't have an economics degree, but it seems pretty obvious - if there are a ton of unoccupied properties, prices are too high, right? If I have a millions widgets to sell at $1 and nobody's buying, I keep lowering my price until the widgets start to move.
If the problem is property owners that are inelastic to the demands of the market (who can afford to sit on empty properties and speculate that some unforeseen upswing in the market will raise the value of their holdings)... Well, then - they'll either win big when that upswing happens, or they'll be left holding the bag when the property value of the entire city collapses a la Detroit?
See I have heard the opposite from realtors. I have heard that while 2 years ago supply was off the charts and demand was lacking, nowadays most of that supply has moved and there is a "6 month" supply in the market, which is normal for growth cities, maybe not even enough if Jacksonville were to be in the 2-3% annual growth range again.
Also, there is a total lack of "supply" of waterfront homes, and these are the most desirable homes in the market, but both oceanfront and especially riverfront prices are dropping like flies - still. Your average Ortega/Avondale/San Marco riverfront home went from $4-6M at the height of the boom to maybe $2M at best now, and you can forget about the biggest of the big selling. There's a newly built waterfront home in Ortega that my mother originally listed for $3.9M, and it is still unsold and went to the bank - now listed for $1.7M I think.
Jacksonville is either such an odd market or it's in a growth rut. People really do not have the money anymore, and even the older money in town was going with the "living on credit" flow of the 2000s.
I'm continually baffled - I go home to Avondale and I see nice new cars, young people, awesome new establishments and restaurants that are full, but when it comes to housing the place looks like a friggin dump and these cool, desirable places are still seeing prices coming down! The John Gorrie may be overpriced for the market, but how much cheaper can it go really? And how come only 3 have closed? Such a confusing market - would hate to be a realtor in Jax right now.
Quote: "Conservative population that consistently votes incorrectly. Lack of mass transit. Searing summer heat. Thousands of acres of grid planted pine trees. An airport that is in the middle of, well, God knows where due to the military bases. Need i go from there? "
Tony, I'll give you the first point but after that..............................
Yeah mass transit sucks but you can buy something affordable in one of the historic neighborhoods and walk to just about everything you need.
More people die of heat in Chicago in the summer than Jacksonville.
Riverside -Avondale, Ortega, San Marco, Springfield and a lot of Mandarin boast the most green, lush neighborhoods you can find anywhere. The piney woods also put a ton of fresh oxygen into the atmosphere.
I love the airport location: easy access, 20 minutes by car from the heart of downtown. I never hear a plane take off, rarely hear one overhead unless it's from NAS JAX.
P.S. I love Chicago, too.
I like Chicago but I'd rather live in Jacksonville. It would cost twice as much to live in a neighborhood like Avondale, and in terms of parking, daily shopping, etc, it wouldn't be nearly as easy to get around up there, even with better taxi and transit service. Whatever we lack with buses here, we can make up for it with bicycles.
Quote from: peestandingup on April 22, 2012, 02:42:27 AMAnd the schools are terrible.
I'm curious as to why people believe this.
In 2011, 85% had a satisfactory or higher score (112 of 131). Duval County is rated a "B" overall.
http://www.firstcoastnews.com/news/article/209476/18/Duval-Schools-Remains-a-B-District-FCATs-Released
Quote from: Dashing Dan on April 22, 2012, 12:44:56 PM
I like Chicago but I'd rather live in Jacksonville. It would cost twice as much to live in a neighborhood like Avondale, and in terms of parking, daily shopping, etc, it wouldn't be nearly as easy to get around up there, even with better taxi and transit service. Whatever we lack with buses here, we can make up for it with bicycles.
But I bet the shopping is way better in Chicago. That's one are where Jax has really suffered over the past decade. I know brick and mortar retailers are all feeling the pinch, but it seems like the variety of shops (and the variety of stock on offer) has really dwindled in Jax.
If the JTA would provide it's customers a way to know arrival times, there would be a dramatic increase in ridership. Mass transit is essential for a city's development as the population and suburban sprawl increases. And where do all those cars park downtown? And what cost is associated with parking ? Property values in the Riverside and Avondale area are not helped by all those commuters speeding through our neighborhood trying to get downtown or to SV hospital during rush hours.
Quote from: simms3 on April 22, 2012, 10:45:41 AM
Quote from: Brian Siebenschuh on April 22, 2012, 01:30:38 AM
I don't have an economics degree, but it seems pretty obvious - if there are a ton of unoccupied properties, prices are too high, right? If I have a millions widgets to sell at $1 and nobody's buying, I keep lowering my price until the widgets start to move.
If the problem is property owners that are inelastic to the demands of the market (who can afford to sit on empty properties and speculate that some unforeseen upswing in the market will raise the value of their holdings)... Well, then - they'll either win big when that upswing happens, or they'll be left holding the bag when the property value of the entire city collapses a la Detroit?
See I have heard the opposite from realtors. I have heard that while 2 years ago supply was off the charts and demand was lacking, nowadays most of that supply has moved and there is a "6 month" supply in the market, which is normal for growth cities, maybe not even enough if Jacksonville were to be in the 2-3% annual growth range again.
Also, there is a total lack of "supply" of waterfront homes, and these are the most desirable homes in the market, but both oceanfront and especially riverfront prices are dropping like flies - still. Your average Ortega/Avondale/San Marco riverfront home went from $4-6M at the height of the boom to maybe $2M at best now, and you can forget about the biggest of the big selling. There's a newly built waterfront home in Ortega that my mother originally listed for $3.9M, and it is still unsold and went to the bank - now listed for $1.7M I think.
Jacksonville is either such an odd market or it's in a growth rut. People really do not have the money anymore, and even the older money in town was going with the "living on credit" flow of the 2000s.
I'm continually baffled - I go home to Avondale and I see nice new cars, young people, awesome new establishments and restaurants that are full, but when it comes to housing the place looks like a friggin dump and these cool, desirable places are still seeing prices coming down! The John Gorrie may be overpriced for the market, but how much cheaper can it go really? And how come only 3 have closed? Such a confusing market - would hate to be a realtor in Jax right now.
So basically what your saying is all the rich people who live in Jacksonville are either becoming poor or are fleeing the city in droves?
Quote from: Dashing Dan on April 22, 2012, 12:44:56 PM
I like Chicago but I'd rather live in Jacksonville. It would cost twice as much to live in a neighborhood like Avondale, and in terms of parking, daily shopping, etc, it wouldn't be nearly as easy to get around up there, even with better taxi and transit service. Whatever we lack with buses here, we can make up for it with bicycles.
+1!
Quote from: Tonyinchicago on April 22, 2012, 01:24:58 PM
If the JTA would provide it's customers a way to know arrival times, there would be a dramatic increase in ridership.
do you have any data to prove this point?
I ask because most cities that have implemented this type of technology have seen less than a 10% increase....which, in most cases, matches the ridership increases of systems generally over the last 5 years (implying the technology had minial effect on its own).
Quote from: tufsu1 on April 22, 2012, 01:54:20 PM
Quote from: Tonyinchicago on April 22, 2012, 01:24:58 PM
If the JTA would provide it's customers a way to know arrival times, there would be a dramatic increase in ridership.
do you have any data to prove this point?
I ask because most cities that have implemented this type of technology have seen less than a 10% increase....which, in most cases, matches the ridership increases of systems generally over the last 5 years (implying the technology had minial effect on its own).
A increase but not a dramatic one (comparing routes that with tracking and routes without, in the same system)
http://m.theatlanticcities.com/commute/2012/03/do-real-time-updates-increase-transit-ridership/1413/ (http://m.theatlanticcities.com/commute/2012/03/do-real-time-updates-increase-transit-ridership/1413/)
QuoteI have heard that while 2 years ago supply was off the charts and demand was lacking, nowadays most of that supply has moved and there is a "6 month" supply in the market, which is normal for growth cities, maybe not even enough if Jacksonville were to be in the 2-3% annual growth range again.
So you're saying Jacksonville's population is increasing at a rate that will fill all vacant homes & condos in six months? That doesn't seem right...
Quote from: tufsu1 on April 22, 2012, 01:54:20 PM
Quote from: Tonyinchicago on April 22, 2012, 01:24:58 PM
If the JTA would provide it's customers a way to know arrival times, there would be a dramatic increase in ridership.
do you have any data to prove this point?
I ask because most cities that have implemented this type of technology have seen less than a 10% increase....which, in most cases, matches the ridership increases of systems generally over the last 5 years (implying the technology had minial effect on its own).
10% is not a bad increase.
Quote from: JFman00 on April 22, 2012, 01:58:24 PM
Quote from: tufsu1 on April 22, 2012, 01:54:20 PM
Quote from: Tonyinchicago on April 22, 2012, 01:24:58 PM
If the JTA would provide it's customers a way to know arrival times, there would be a dramatic increase in ridership.
do you have any data to prove this point?
I ask because most cities that have implemented this type of technology have seen less than a 10% increase....which, in most cases, matches the ridership increases of systems generally over the last 5 years (implying the technology had minial effect on its own).
A increase but not a dramatic one (comparing routes that with tracking and routes without, in the same system)
http://m.theatlanticcities.com/commute/2012/03/do-real-time-updates-increase-transit-ridership/1413/ (http://m.theatlanticcities.com/commute/2012/03/do-real-time-updates-increase-transit-ridership/1413/)
Wrong question. The correct question to ask is "Does mass transit tracking technology increase productivity for the riders?"
Instead of waiting two hours waiting for a bus (not likely but supposing I was forced to), I would rather spent those two hours working on emails or spend that extra time shopping. This increases the economy and indirectly raises tax revenue. If we have people sitting around for two hours doing nothing but waiting on a bus, then we really are one of the most unproductive city in the nation. They aren't working. They aren't spending. All they are doing is waiting on a bus!
As for what's the problem, these numbers speak for themselves:
Jacksonville, Fl.
Median listing price: $184,775
Median sales price: $121,600
Difference: -34%
VS
Boston
Median listing price: $319,000
Median sales price: $325,000
Percent difference: +2%
As for Tampa (Median sales price: $135,500). I expect them to be in better shape than Jacksonville 10 years from now because they are realistic in their expectations.
Quote from: Adam W on April 22, 2012, 01:12:24 PM
But I bet the shopping is way better in Chicago.
I am happier going to the dentist, so going shopping does not influence my choice of cities.
Quote from: Brian Siebenschuh on April 22, 2012, 02:25:22 PM
QuoteI have heard that while 2 years ago supply was off the charts and demand was lacking, nowadays most of that supply has moved and there is a "6 month" supply in the market, which is normal for growth cities, maybe not even enough if Jacksonville were to be in the 2-3% annual growth range again.
So you're saying Jacksonville's population is increasing at a rate that will fill all vacant homes & condos in six months? That doesn't seem right...
What I'm saying is that Realtor world is saying that factoring in population growth, new construction, investors and 2nd home sales, immigration and emigration, etc there is a much "healthier" supply than there was. I have heard 6 months tossed around, down from something like above 20 months. Maybe it's 10 months, doesn't matter, the supply is much much lower than it was. This is new construction only, I believe.
Besides, do the math yourself - if Jacksonville is growing at 10,000 per year and homeownership rate is 70% and average household size is 2.5, that would equate to a roughly 1,400 inventory supply of new homes unsold in Jacksonville. Maybe that doesn't sound right and maybe my math is wrong, I don't know. I'm not a Realtor, I just hear what they say.
Remember, new construction has literally completely stopped in Jacksonville for a few years now, but the city has not stopped growing.
Quote from: cityimrov on April 22, 2012, 01:27:43 PM
So basically what your saying is all the rich people who live in Jacksonville are either becoming poor or are fleeing the city in droves?
Many of the wealthy are not so wealthy anymore (and many lived on credit), and many have moved from in town to the beach. Drive the riverfront neighborhoods - they aren't as kept up as they were just 4 years ago and it's not like someone living in a $4M home can't afford landscaping, but you'd be surprised to know that many have eliminated extra expenses such as landscaping. Many many many people have moved out of town to the beach. A lot of people who aren't from Jacksonville and who have money are turned off by the "old guard" in the older neighborhoods, and besides why spend millions on a home when across the street or a block away are very shoddy $100K homes and strip clubs and sleazy places lining the boulevards (namely Roosevelt, San Juan, Timucuana, etc).
Things have changed in Jacksonville, and people have lost money and people who still have money have taken advantage of cutrate prices for homes in Atlantic Beach, South Jacksonville Beach and Ponte Vedra Beach.
1st time homebuyers are buying like crazy in Jacksonville because prices have come down so far (they were completely priced out a few years ago), but I can only hope they take good care of their homes (a little landscaping and new paint never hurt).
Quote from: simms3 on April 22, 2012, 04:05:02 PM
Quote from: cityimrov on April 22, 2012, 01:27:43 PM
So basically what your saying is all the rich people who live in Jacksonville are either becoming poor or are fleeing the city in droves?
Many of the wealthy are not so wealthy anymore (and many lived on credit), and many have moved from in town to the beach. Drive the riverfront neighborhoods - they aren't as kept up as they were just 4 years ago and it's not like someone living in a $4M home can't afford landscaping, but you'd be surprised to know that many have eliminated extra expenses such as landscaping. Many many many people have moved out of town to the beach. A lot of people who aren't from Jacksonville and who have money are turned off by the "old guard" in the older neighborhoods, and besides why spend millions on a home when across the street or a block away are very shoddy $100K homes and strip clubs and sleazy places lining the boulevards (namely Roosevelt, San Juan, Timucuana, etc).
Things have changed in Jacksonville, and people have lost money and people who still have money have taken advantage of cutrate prices for homes in Atlantic Beach, South Jacksonville Beach and Ponte Vedra Beach.
1st time homebuyers are buying like crazy in Jacksonville because prices have come down so far (they were completely priced out a few years ago), but I can only hope they take good care of their homes (a little landscaping and new paint never hurt).
How very correct you are. Remember the 90's? Everyone had money and you could breeze though an airport?
Quote from: Tonyinchicago on April 22, 2012, 02:28:54 PM
Quote from: tufsu1 on April 22, 2012, 01:54:20 PM
Quote from: Tonyinchicago on April 22, 2012, 01:24:58 PM
If the JTA would provide it's customers a way to know arrival times, there would be a dramatic increase in ridership.
do you have any data to prove this point?
I ask because most cities that have implemented this type of technology have seen less than a 10% increase....which, in most cases, matches the ridership increases of systems generally over the last 5 years (implying the technology had minial effect on its own).
10% is not a bad increase.
sure, but transit agencuies that haven't installed auto vehicle locators are also showing increases.
Quote from: simms3 on April 22, 2012, 04:05:02 PM
Quote from: cityimrov on April 22, 2012, 01:27:43 PM
So basically what your saying is all the rich people who live in Jacksonville are either becoming poor or are fleeing the city in droves?
Many of the wealthy are not so wealthy anymore (and many lived on credit), and many have moved from in town to the beach. Drive the riverfront neighborhoods - they aren't as kept up as they were just 4 years ago and it's not like someone living in a $4M home can't afford landscaping, but you'd be surprised to know that many have eliminated extra expenses such as landscaping. Many many many people have moved out of town to the beach. A lot of people who aren't from Jacksonville and who have money are turned off by the "old guard" in the older neighborhoods, and besides why spend millions on a home when across the street or a block away are very shoddy $100K homes and strip clubs and sleazy places lining the boulevards (namely Roosevelt, San Juan, Timucuana, etc).
Things have changed in Jacksonville, and people have lost money and people who still have money have taken advantage of cutrate prices for homes in Atlantic Beach, South Jacksonville Beach and Ponte Vedra Beach.
1st time homebuyers are buying like crazy in Jacksonville because prices have come down so far (they were completely priced out a few years ago), but I can only hope they take good care of their homes (a little landscaping and new paint never hurt).
What happened to the previous wealthy people at the beaches? Did they move somewhere else?
Your painting one of the most depressing picture of Jacksonville I've seen so far. If Jacksonville keeps going the direction the city is going now and your showing a major shift in demographics, this place is about to jump off a cliff. It's going to turn into Detroit until something major changes.
QuoteI'm continually baffled - I go home to Avondale and I see nice new cars, young people, awesome new establishments and restaurants that are full, but when it comes to housing the place looks like a friggin dump and these cool, desirable places are still seeing prices coming down!
Easy, people are renting. The renters in my neighborhood seem to be living with more discretionary income than I do without knowing their situation, granted. Maybe it is because the monthly fee is just rent to the landlord instead of the maintenance and other CapEx things I have to pay for.
^^^What do you mean? Atlantic Beach is looking better than ever and all sorts of homes are being renovated. Ponte Vedra Beach is still seeing new construction all over the place - including oceanfront. Homes are also being built in ICW, and all the new apartments going up (especially the higher end apartments) are being built in ICW and as far west as Town Center.
It's a shame to say, but these areas still have a ton to offer, are closer to most of the higher paying jobs, and these areas are relatively crime free and have a very neat, landscaped and kept up appearance relative to the intown neighborhoods.
When I return home to visit, I always find myself asking why on earth would someone spend millions to live in Ortega especially, but also parts of Avondale that are just not so nice looking overall. My mother, a realtor, says that is now a major problem. Clients of my mother who moved from a nice area of [insert city] bought a home one lot from the waterfront in Avondale (a home built in something like 1910). They also bought an oceanfront condo in S. Jax Beach, but their number one complaint about Avondale is that while they love their home and their street, not 4-5 blocks away it can look a little rough and to get anywhere they have to drive past tattoo parlors and strip clubs and poorly landscaped thoroughfares (other cities' nice areas are mostly entirely nice, truly separating the haves from the have nots).
The prior residents were long-term residents of Avondale-Ortega, St. Marks church, Yacht Club and TCC, etc etc, but they left all that behind for Ponte Vedra. The current residents from [insert city]are good friends of fellow doctor families and people they have met out at the beach, but I don't think they have mixed in with the "old guard" crowd.
What I have noticed is that a lot of transplants like neighborhoods such as Avondale and Riverside because it reminds them of home, but I don't think they are ready to drop a significant chunk on these neighborhoods for fear their value won't be protected (and lo and behold they are correct).
Their value would be better protected if more houses were upkept and riff raff were separated better. Another thing I have noticed is that some of the most successful historic neighborhoods have 2 things that Riverside-Avondale don't have (but that San Marco has to a good degree), and that is nice upkept parks and a mix of building styles. Preserve the old, but also allow residents who want to be in the neighborhood but not necessarily live in an ancient home the ability to build something more contemporary or not necessarily "fitting".
Lastly, to give one a picture of how much money has vanished, (and full disclosure I hate hate spreading this rumor because so many of my lifetime memories were formed here) I have heard that the FYC is in pretty bad financial condition. Apparently it's not alone, especially on that side of town. Membership is way down (my parents, who are also strapped in this economy, are some of the many who quit...but they kept their membership at Ponte Vedra).
And it's not only millionaires you want investing in the core neighborhoods, but you also want young professionals who will inhabit the smaller starter homes, but also have enough to keep them landscaped and looking good. You want the city to maintain the streetscapes (and if the city doesn't, Riverside-Avondale should self-tax). The young professionals are mostly moving to the southside and to ICW, but they are of course happy to come in to eat at Orsay or the Brick or drink at Park/King.
Places like the Yacht Club and Timuquana need to revamp from exclusive old-guard clubs to a format like Ponte Vedra, which allows anyone to join for the price rather than requiring 3 members' recommendation and a board approval. The whole shopping center at Herschel and St. Johns needs a major facelift and new tenants. The plans that were for that area, including the roundabout, would probably have been great for that area, especially for creating a connector between Avondale and Ortega.
Roosevelt needs major work. Riverside Ave needs a streetscape between King and I-95 that creates a nicer walking environment.
Appearances are what keep the beach and much of the southside appealing, and appearances often trump character. Intown has the character, and it has the destinations, but it doesn't have the appearances or the protection of homevalue baked in like other parts of the city.
Quote^^^What do you mean?
IT was simply an observation to your comment that the homes look like shit, but the the restaurants and bars are still full. The rest of your last post is spot on and I've observed the same in my 3 years here.
Not within the city limits but the metro is booming. Don't believe it? Within a few city blocks north of my house, 75 new homes are currently under construction. A little further north Rivertown has suddenly exploded with a dozen new streets, a fantastic amenity center and homes going up at pre-crash rates. To our east another 30 or so, are going up in Heritage Landing, WGV. South of my place there are several stillborn developments that have taken down the barricades, opened the gates and lot sales again. Murabella has at least 10 new homes under construction. Near the WGV central Golf Complex, ground has broken on another 20-30 homes for senior living. The WGV condos are also on the move again. Nocatee has jumped from 500 families to over 1,000 in a little over a year, and they too are laying in new roads and development. I'd say suburban Jacksonville is as healthy as anything in Central or South Florida. Flagler Development, WGV and St. Joe are all in this for the long haul, but the sounds of pneumatic power tools fills the daytime wire around here.
OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: fsquid on April 22, 2012, 11:56:22 PM
Quote^^^What do you mean?
IT was simply an observation to your comment that the homes look like shit, but the the restaurants and bars are still full. The rest of your last post is spot on and I've observed the same in my 3 years here.
Oh whoops, I was pointing arrows at cityimrov, I know you and I are in agreement. The beach, SJC and ICW are stealing away all the wealth and the young professionals from intown.
Quote from: simms3 on April 23, 2012, 12:35:52 AM
Quote from: fsquid on April 22, 2012, 11:56:22 PM
Quote^^^What do you mean?
IT was simply an observation to your comment that the homes look like shit, but the the restaurants and bars are still full. The rest of your last post is spot on and I've observed the same in my 3 years here.
Oh whoops, I was pointing arrows at cityimrov, I know you and I are in agreement. The beach, SJC and ICW are stealing away all the wealth and the young professionals from intown.
Replace everything you said about Jacksonville with Detroit & Wayne County. Replace all the Beaches & World Golf Village with Bloomfield Hills and Oakland. On the surface, you almost described Detroit. There's some similarities though for this area except there's quite a lot of expensive homes next to the risky ocean.
I'm not sure how to separate "the haves from the have nots" without turning into Robert Moses.
I don't know how big this issue is since I haven't added the numbers but Jacksonville has certain debts and obligations that the old guard has given it. These debts and obligations must be paid out. This is usually through property tax. If the property values go south, so does the revenue from those taxes. In the mean time, areas like Ponte Vedra Beach get the income to do whatever they want from very high property tax revenue while Jacksonville looks like it's going to hold all the debt from the past.
I don't like this picture.
QuoteHome of former Jaguars owners Wayne and Delores Barr Weaver for sale
Duval's fifth most valuable home, according to the property appraiser, will be up for auction May 24. The riverfront home of former Jaguars owners Wayne and Delores Barr Weaver was originally listed at $10 million. The buy-it-now price is $5.5 million.
Their daughter is selling her St. Augustine property, also through Concierge Auctions.
http://jacksonville.com/slideshows/jaguars/home-former-jaguars-owners-wayne-and-delores-barr-weaver-sale (http://jacksonville.com/slideshows/jaguars/home-former-jaguars-owners-wayne-and-delores-barr-weaver-sale)