Redeveloping Hemming Plaza
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/1774360652_TFf8wsf-M.jpg)
In 2005, Metro Jacksonville pointed out to the JEDC and Peyton Administration why the Main Street Pocket Park would struggle to succeed if built. We were ignored and $800,000 later, the chickens eventually came home to roost as our warnings became reality. Now a City Council committee is in search of recommendations to improve Hemming Plaza. Today, we share our concerns with the improvement recommendations of the Hemming Plaza sub committee and ponder if there are more affordable and efficient methods to make Hemming Plaza the vibrant place it once was.
Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2012-apr-redeveloping-hemming-plaza
When I see decisions made such as we see now about the park, when money is set for spending when there really is none, when the fundamental amenities such as trees are being removed, and all this clearly against a survey’s results, I begin to wonder why and how this kind of thing can happen.
Surely there are some aspects about which I am ignorant. Perhaps the earlier money spent on the engineering of the park, even though offering unsound advice or an unworkable plan, is being implemented anyway just so that the money spent on the engineering will not be wasted.
I sense that decisions were made before the meetings, outside of them, or that someone or some group, has made the decisions according to their own motives, and that the meetings were held, and the surveys worked through, to give legitimacy to the whole process.
Sh!t for $25k I'll go down there with my ratchet set and remove the existing seats myself. Wouldn't take more than a day and renting a Uhaul. And you'd get another few hundred in scrap. Where do they get these kind of bids? That's insane.
Love the effort, but as Ron Chamblin said, looks like some surveyed suggestions were ignored? The annual maintenance/improvement costs "allowing" other businesses, MOCA, the library, artists and food trucks to use the space seems about right.
Is it possible to get rid of pavers and put in grass? If they are going to remove some trees, which seems to be a siginificant amount for 1.5 AC, then they shouldn't leave those ugly brick pavers exposed to the hot sun.
Also, I like the idea of removable tables and chairs. In our developments and I believe in random general surveys, people like the idea of being in control of where they sit, how they sit, the configuration, etc. Even if they are heavy and can only easily be moved a few inches this way or that, I think people like the fact that if they sit down, they can be in charge of where and how. Now the timing is weird - only allowed to sit between 10:00 and 2:00? How are they going to manage that? Restaurants with outdoors seating where I live have tie downs for their sidewalk furniture that they attach at night to prevent theft, so that is definitely a maintenance issue there.
Finally, there aren't very many colors in that area. I like the idea of adopting planters. My mother is active in the local Garden Club (she has helped put together the Root Ball numerous times I believe), so I bet she would be thrilled at the idea of planters downtown. I imagine this could be the cheapest impactful fix? I love walking around my neighb this time of year - there are flower arrangements and pocket gardens in full bloom everywhere, smells and sights abound. Colors do wonder to perk up an area and make it more inviting.
1. It is HOT in Jacksonville - anyone notice? It is early April and already pushing 90 degrees!!! Cutting down perfectly healthy shade trees is mind numbingly absurd. Let me guess - someone will suggest we replace them with sable palms?
2. Is there really a safety problem in Hemming Plaza - or the perception of a safety problem? I walk through the park at least 4 times a week. I smile and waive to the people on the benches. They smile and waive back. With more people in the park, I honestly believe they will mix in and rarely be noticed.
3. Before we spend any money, it would be nice to try for at least six months to see what would happen if we eliminated all of the restrictions regarding vendors (I.e. food trucks) and see what happens. Turn it over to the people. When JTA made the skyway free, the ridership doubled. Is there a lesson there that can be applied to Hemming?
I like the Garden Club idea as well. I don't know why it can't be done right now without spending a dime on anything else. Also, the idea of moveable chairs in urban parks is a good one in general terms when designed within the concept of flexible park programming. However, in this case, that doesn't appear why the extra investment is being recommended and if we're going to rip up the park in less than a year anyway, perhaps nothing short term should be done other than some extra affordable programming concepts.
I'm also skeptical of the HDR plan and not even for sure if its best to assume that it should be taken to 100% design and built as conceptually proposed. The park's best amenity is its tree canopy period. To "flatten" out the park, you're going to have to take out the majority of trees eventually.....diseased or not.
Last, using Manhanttan's Bryant Park as a major case study may be a stretch without studying the entire context. More important than a park itself is the urban fabric surrounding it (the Outer Square). What type of planning recommendations does the committee have for improving Hemming Plaza's Outer Square? You can't successfully enhance this space without dealing with the dead pedestrian zones surrounding it.
This council sucks. Good ole conservative republicans have come to rid the city of any thing public...welcome to jax.
The problem of hemming plaza is not it's design; It's the underlying problem of homelessness downtown. Ripping out beautiful canopy does not address that. Moving the services and jail out of downtown would.
The concern with 'sight lines' is also misguided; you can easily see from one side to the other; this is not a very large park. Thanks for the article.
Quote from: dougskiles on April 04, 2012, 07:22:04 AM
1. It is HOT in Jacksonville - anyone notice? It is early April and already pushing 90 degrees!!! Cutting down perfectly healthy shade trees is mind numbingly absurd. Let me guess - someone will suggest we replace them with sable palms?
Not this time. It's recommended to replace lost trees with low height growing plants for improving sight lines and better security.
Quote2. Is there really a safety problem in Hemming Plaza - or the perception of a safety problem? I walk through the park at least 4 times a week. I smile and waive to the people on the benches. They smile and waive back. With more people in the park, I honestly believe they will mix in and rarely be noticed.
3. Before we spend any money, it would be nice to try for at least six months to see what would happen if we eliminated all of the restrictions regarding vendors (I.e. food trucks) and see what happens. Turn it over to the people. When JTA made the skyway free, the ridership doubled. Is there a lesson there that can be applied to Hemming?
Great idea. At this point, because the short and long term timelines are less than six months apart it's probably better to replace the short term capital expenses with additional "trial based" programming.
Remove the trees? Seriously?
Quote from: Garden guy on April 04, 2012, 07:31:21 AM
This council sucks. Good ole conservative republicans have come to rid the city of any thing public...welcome to jax.
I don't think you can blame council for the list of recommendations provided to them. Council is actually trying to improve the park's vitality, which is great.
Quote from: Actionville on April 04, 2012, 07:32:25 AM
The problem of hemming plaza is not it's design; It's the underlying problem of homelessness downtown. Ripping out beautiful canopy does not address that. Moving the services and jail out of downtown would.
The concern with 'sight lines' is also misguided; you can easily see from one side to the other; this is not a very large park. Thanks for the article.
No problem, I just wanted to give an update on what was happening. I do believe that a day center will address a lot of issues regarding homelessness in downtown but that's outside of the scope of what the committee was to address. Unfortunately, removing and shifting around amenities doesn't address the issues of why the general public doesn't spend as much time in the space. The survey's results seem to point out that more amenities and programming should be higher priority items to tackle. Some of the recommendations would not only be a waste at this point, they'd destroy the best remaining elements of the space.
It pretty obvious that certain people, Councilwoman Lee, being one of them but perhaps others, had a preconcieved notion of what to do with HP.
A survey was done to support their game plan and the survey proved how misguided their plan is. So, they conveniently ignored it for the most part.
Quote from: thelakelander on April 04, 2012, 07:54:36 AM
Quote from: Garden guy on April 04, 2012, 07:31:21 AM
This council sucks. Good ole conservative republicans have come to rid the city of any thing public...welcome to jax.
I don't think you can blame council for the list of recommendations provided to them. Council is actually trying to improve the park's vitality, which is great.
Quote from: Actionville on April 04, 2012, 07:32:25 AM
The problem of hemming plaza is not it's design; It's the underlying problem of homelessness downtown. Ripping out beautiful canopy does not address that. Moving the services and jail out of downtown would.
The concern with 'sight lines' is also misguided; you can easily see from one side to the other; this is not a very large park. Thanks for the article.
No problem, I just wanted to give an update on what was happening. I do believe that a day center will address a lot of issues regarding homelessness in downtown but that's outside of the scope of what the committee was to address. Unfortunately, removing and shifting around amenities doesn't address the issues of why the general public doesn't spend as much time in the space. The survey's results seem to point out that more amenities and programming should be higher priority items to tackle. Some of the recommendations would not only be a waste at this point, they'd destroy the best remaining elements of the space.
Improved vitality? really? And removing trees and anywhere to sit is going to improve vitality? What an odd and thoughtlesss approach. Who the *** suggested that to these people?
^The city council didn't come up with this list of recommendations that is being presented to them. A sub-committee of stakeholders was formed (members are listed in the article) to develop a game plan for restoring the park. I'll agree though, that the list the sub-committee developed would ruin the space if implemented as spelled out in the meeting minutes.
Quote from: Garden guy on April 04, 2012, 07:31:21 AM
This council sucks. Good ole conservative republicans have come to rid the city of any thing public...welcome to jax.
just one problem...this is being lead by CM Lee, a Democrat!
the big problem here is that the loudest voices on the commmittee were those concerned about "safety and security"
Taking down trees so cameras have good sight lines....really? Police state anyone?
Where I live, Greenville SC, which was named one of the 10 best Downtowns in the country by Forbes magazine, we are ADDING trees, chess boards, permanent seating and water features (all the things proposed for ELIMINATION in Hemming Plaza) and stages to THREE different existing public plazas. That is in addition to a brand new public plaza that just opened in 2011.
Here is some background on each:
1) Piazza Bergamo: Currently consists of hardscape and a grassy area.
The city is spending $4 million to add trees, permanent seating, additional lighting, a length-wise water fountain/feature, and artistic metal 'shading'. A $100 million two building office-retail complex is under construction next to it, with a third phase planned. Clemson University will move it's MBA program into the upper floors overlooking the plaza. The opposing building is undergoing a major renovation, and will soon be fully occupied on all floors for the first time in many years. This same building just added a rooftop patio that will overlook the soon to be re-done plaza.
2) Hyatt Plaza: Currently hardscaping, a few trees, water fountain/feature.
Hyatt is re-doing the plaza to include a plaza-fronting restaurant, new water feature to replace the existing one, open fire pit feature, push-cart style vendor, stage for concerts/events. Office space that fronts the plaza will convert to retail space and a community event space.
3) Peace Center Courtyard: Front side consisted of water feature with landscaping, a driveway and hardscaping. Back side had a water feature and an amplitheater with stage.
Front side will now include new water features, permanent chess tables, permanent seating, and on event nights, temporary vendors. Back side will get a new water feature to replace the old one and a much enhanced stage.
In a nutshell, Greenville which is already a national exmaple of a revitialized downtown, is spending more than 10 million dollars (public and private) to enhance three public spaces, using a strategy that is the POLAR OPPOSITE of what is proposed for Hemming Plaza.
^Now you can see why downtown Jax continues to struggle. As long as bad policy decisions are made regarding the pedestrian scale environment of the area, it won't matter how much money is spent in it. Given the context and scale, downtown Greenville's public spaces would have been a better example to follow than a park in the heart of Manhattan.
(http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSiAyzgK5mcC_e_fQQJSBX8QBqZ4HnP1boKEkXAh3rmZD7NEQpP)
But if we are going to use it as an example, it is loaded with amenities such as public restrooms, kids carousels, trees, and restaurants. In addition, it's "outer square" has greatly gentrified over the last decade or two. It would nice to see some focus on Hemming's outer square and the addition of built in amenities.
I personally don't see a problem with sightl lines. Trees have trunks. Replacing these with shrubs would be worse, unless only a foot high. The tree canopy is the best thing, and should be saved. There are plenty of parks that have great trees, see Tallahassee, Savannah, Boston, and many others. Open areas are hot, and better served for baseball (yes, I know this is too small of a space, but you get my point). The fountain should run during the day. The homeless are the main reason for the perceived safety issue. The same with the Library, and the overpriced pocket park near it. Once this is solved, it would be much better. Why would anybody deliberately plant water oaks instead of live oaks? Yes, this area does need some colorful planting, which would help, but not way the city has been doing things with the town centers--built, but not maintain.
Agree with everyone that the trees absolutely need to stay. Can't believe that is even on the table.
I think adding a stage for performances, rallies, etc would go a long way towards reinvigorating the park. San Francisco had similar problems with homelessness in Union Square, which is located close to a significant homeless population. One of their solutions was to add a stage in the park and it has transformed the space. I'm not sure if they've used other tactics, but I do know that having a stage and hosting rallies, concerts, art shows, etc has turned the Square around.
They've set up temporary stages at or around Hemming for events like Jazz Fest, Fashion Show at Art Walk, etc. If there was a fixed, permanent structure, it would be significantly easier to host a large event at Hemming. Plus Downtown Vision or a Friends of Hemming Plaza group could program the heck of the park. There could be live music, political rallies, speeches, art festivals, fashion shows, and all sorts of entertainment.
You can't just knock a few trees down, make a few small design changes and hope the park will become vibrant.
Removing diseased and dying trees is one thing. Replacing them with shrubs is another. And removing perfectly healthy trees is patently idiotic.
Will there be an opportunity for public input on this? It seems like these recommendations are a 50/50 split of good ideas and bad ideas. It would be nice if they focused on the cheap stuff like programming before they made big permanent changes like cutting down all the trees.
Just move the police to the middle of the park we already pay them to lean on their cars across the street with a limited view. Increases that feeling of security in the park with no added cost.
Let restaurants set up and manage some private tables daily. Increases amenities no cost.
Spend your money on saving the trees.
Most importantly City Council ignore us and do a survey of people from the Southside who could care less about the park.
This whole thing is mind numbing. A little maintenance, removing distressed trees and the adopt a planter are great ideas. Removing tables and chairs, the fountain and trees is disgusting. The answer is to spend some money to ADD to what is already there and finance some great events. That would be a good way to spend money.
Cut the trees down or remove 'distressed' trees to improve line of sight is a bad plan. If the council takes the plan handed to them, and we pay for it, then why is there a city council. I city council members are afraid to cross the street, perhaps the city security officers could walk the men to their cars. Cut down trees, take out placed seating, and hand out sun screen cream to all. Nice plan. If the trees go don't call it a park. Call it a parking lot.
Why is the solution in Jacksonville always to tear something down or rip something out?
They don't know otherwise, think things will be different this time, don't care about the future, can't listen, etc. See Lavilla, Springfield, most of downtown, etc.
So you conduct all of these surveys, disregard them completely, and decide -- with no empirical supporting evidence -- that the main problem with Hemming Plaza is that the park just has too many trees, too much shade, and too many places to sit?
Typical Jacksonville.
Careless destruction with no long-term plan in place.
Such incredible arrogance.
The reason there's mostly homeless and/or unemployed people hanging out in Hemming Plaza is because there's not much reason for anybody else to go there.
Cheap solution? Have a mini art festival there, every day. Allow food trucks, artisans, and entertainers to ply their wares. To keep costs down for everybody, instead of charging exorbitant fees, have the people who are entertaining/selling things tidy up the place afterwards.
The homeless folk will still be around, but they'll be less noticeable in a crowd of additional people who are eating and shopping (and therefore less distressing to the delicate sensibilities of those who hate seeing the plight of the unfortunate).
I am willing to bet the removal of trees leads right back to Jim Dalton. If you remember it wasn't that long ago he was attempting to have them removed when the building he purchased was being renovated. Money talks in this city. Screw the public and their needs or wants.
Quote from: DeadGirlsDontDance on April 04, 2012, 12:29:11 PM
Cheap solution? Have a mini art festival there, every day. Allow food trucks, artisans, and entertainers to ply their wares. To keep costs down for everybody, instead of charging exorbitant fees, have the people who are entertaining/selling things tidy up the place afterwards.
A daily art festival would get old quickly and become routine. The programming should be somewhat diverse to draw a wide array of people to the plaza and to downtown.
That is why a stage should be installed. You could program it to have "Jazz Tuesday's", "Blues Thursday's" (just generic names, not real ideas), to have fashion shows, to have Lavilla School of the Arts Students performing on certain days, standup comedy festivals, movie premieres, plays, political rallies, speeches, celebrations, and countless other things.
Hemming Plaza would become THE center of civic life in Jacksonville. You have an issue you want to advocate for? Hold a rally at Hemming. You want your band/musical act to get exposure? Hold a free concert in Hemming Plaza. And so on.
I'm not saying that there shouldn't be art festivals or food trucks. Just that having a stage and programming the park will make it more vibrant. Having programming will also ensure that there are more users for the Food Trucks, local restaurants, and street vendors. Its really a no brainer and probably the most cost effective way to stimulate activity in Downtown.
Also, I'm not sure Bryant Park is the best example for Hemming Plaza. They didn't just remove "trees" from Bryant Park. There were also hedges that were tall enough to conceal all types of illicit activities. The park was not an open space and was cut off from the street (unlike most of Hemming Plaza). I've linked a few pics below.
Bryant Park is also the largest green space in Manhattan south of Central Park. They desperately needed green space in the middle of that urban jungle. So creating a lawn type park was a lot more necessary there.
http://blog.bryantpark.org/2012/03/20th-anniversary-bryant-park-before-bpc.html
The Project for Public Spaces' Eleven Principals for Creating Great Community Places.
Just for reasons of self-abuse, count how many principals that the city is flagrantly violating with this "upgrade."
Quote
http://www.pps.org/articles/11steps/
Eleven Principles for Creating Great Community Places
Effective public spaces are extremely difficult to accomplish, because their complexity is rarely understood. As William (Holly) Whyte said, “It’s hard to design a space that will not attract people. What is remarkable is how often this has been accomplished.â€
PPS has identified 11 key elements in transforming public spaces into vibrant community places, whether they’re parks, plazas, public squares, streets, sidewalks or the myriad other outdoor and indoor spaces that have public uses in common. These elements are:
1. The Community Is The Expert
The important starting point in developing a concept for any public space is to identify the talents and assets within the community. In any community there are people who can provide an historical perspective, valuable insights into how the area functions, and an understanding of the critical issues and what is meaningful to people. Tapping this information at the beginning of the process will help to create a sense of community ownership in the project that can be of great benefit to both the project sponsor and the community.
2. Create a Place, Not a Design
If your goal is to create a place (which we think it should be), a design will not be enough. To make an under-performing space into a vital “place,†physical elements must be introduced that would make people welcome and comfortable, such as seating and new landscaping, and also through “management†changes in the pedestrian circulation pattern and by developing more effective relationships between the surrounding retail and the activities going on in the public spaces. The goal is to create a place that has both a strong sense of community and a comfortable image, as well as a setting and activities and uses that collectively add up to something more than the sum of its often simple parts. This is easy to say, but difficult to accomplish.
3. Look for Partners
Partners are critical to the future success and image of a public space improvement project. Whether you want partners at the beginning to plan for the project or you want to brainstorm and develop scenarios with a dozen partners who might participate in the future, they are invaluable in providing support and getting a project off the ground. They can be local institutions, museums, schools and others.
4. You Can See a Lot Just By Observing
We can all learn a great deal from others’ successes and failures. By looking at how people are using (or not using) public spaces and finding out what they like and don’t like about them, it is possible to assess what makes them work or not work. Through these observations, it will be clear what kinds of activities are missing and what might be incorporated. And when the spaces are built, continuing to observe them will teach even more about how to evolve and manage them over time.
5. Have a Vision
The vision needs to come out of each individual community. However, essential to a vision for any public space is an idea of what kinds of activities might be happening in the space, a view that the space should be comfortable and have a good image, and that it should be an important place where people want to be. It should instill a sense of pride in the people who live and work in the surrounding area.
6. Start with the Petunias: Lighter, Quicker, Cheaper
The complexity of public spaces is such that you cannot expect to do everything right initially. The best spaces experiment with short term improvements that can be tested and refined over many years! Elements such as seating, outdoor cafes, public art, striping of crosswalks and pedestrian havens, community gardens and murals are examples of improvements that can be accomplished in a short time.
7. Triangulate
“Triangulation is the process by which some external stimulus provides a linkage between people and prompts strangers to talk to other strangers as if they knew each other†(Holly Whyte). In a public space, the choice and arrangement of different elements in relation to each other can put the triangulation process in motion (or not). For example, if a bench, a wastebasket and a telephone are placed with no connection to each other, each may receive a very limited use, but when they are arranged together along with other amenities such as a coffee cart, they will naturally bring people together (or triangulate!). On a broader level, if a children’s reading room in a new library is located so that it is next to a children’s playground in a park and a food kiosk is added, more activity will occur than if these facilities were located separately.
8. They Always Say “It Can’t Be Doneâ€
One of Yogi Berra’s great sayings is “If they say it can’t be done, it doesn’t always work out that way,†and we have found it to be appropriate for our work as well. Creating good public spaces is inevitably about encountering obstacles, because no one in either the public or private sectors has the job or responsibility to “create places.†For example, professionals such as traffic engineers, transit operators, urban planners and architects all have narrow definitions of their job â€" facilitating traffic or making trains run on time or creating long term schemes for building cities or designing buildings. Their job, evident in most cities, is not to create “places.†Starting with small scale community-nurturing improvements can demonstrate the importance of “places†and help to overcome obstacles.
9. Form Supports Function
The input from the community and potential partners, the understanding of how other spaces function, the experimentation, and overcoming the obstacles and naysayers provides the concept for the space. Although design is important, these other elements tell you what “form†you need to accomplish the future vision for the space.
10. Money Is Not the Issue
This statement can apply in a number of ways. For example, once you’ve put in the basic infrastructure of the public spaces, the elements that are added that will make it work (e.g., vendors, cafes, flowers and seating) will not be expensive. In addition, if the community and other partners are involved in programming and other activities, this can also reduce costs. More important is that by following these steps, people will have so much enthusiasm for the project that the cost is viewed much more broadly and consequently as not significant when compared with the benefits.
11. You Are Never Finished
By nature good public spaces that respond to the needs, the opinions and the ongoing changes of the community require attention. Amenities wear out, needs change and other things happen in an urban environment. Being open to the need for change and having the management flexibility to enact that change is what builds great public spaces and great cities and towns.
While their at at, people in Maine and Oregon have these dandy little hot water coils that can be installed below your wood or tile floor... Hey if clearing out the park is REALLY the goal, why not install say a couple million $$ in heat coils under the plaza. Wow, can you imagine the traffic that would draw on a warm July day?
TUFSU1, DID YOU REALLY WRITE THAT? Far out man!
OCKLAWAHA
A few thoughts
- PPS is excellent. Wish they were involved.
- You'd think this ad hoc committee would be composed of individuals who understand how to make good public spaces. Why exactly are Fred & Bryan involved? They know homeless & mental health issues, but they have no particular insight to public space design. Besides having the Hope Team be more accessible, which it already is, I don't see any direct issue relating to homelessness or mental health mentioned.
- No, security/safety isn't an issue there. The perception of it is, because it attracts many homeless which in turn repel office workers, vistors, etc.
- The trees make the space. Lowering the beds, or at least removing the hedges on the beds, is a great idea. As is adding color via flowers, moveable seating, and programming.
- Homeless will always congregate there as long as (1) it's close to where they are served food and provided a place to sleep (2) it's shaded (3) there's places to sit (4) it's the most attractive option. End of story.
- Adding wifi & ambiance music from speakers would also add value to the space.
Quote from: Bill Hoff on April 04, 2012, 02:20:06 PM
- Homeless will always congregate there as long as (1) it's close to where they are served food and provided a place to sleep (2) it's shaded (3) there's places to sit (4) it's the most attractive option. End of story.
Disagree. If the park gets reclaimed by the general public through programming, food trucks, vendors, art shows, etc. many of the homeless will seek quieter and more low key spots to hang out.
Quote from: Ocklawaha on April 04, 2012, 01:34:59 PM
TUFSU1, DID YOU REALLY WRITE THAT? Far out man!
write what Ock?
Quote from: tufsu1 on April 04, 2012, 02:37:02 PM
Quote from: Ocklawaha on April 04, 2012, 01:34:59 PM
TUFSU1, DID YOU REALLY WRITE THAT? Far out man!
write what Ock?
That Big Brother needs a better view. Would be my guess.
as for PPS, there's an even better list...Top 10 Principles for Public Squares
http://www.pps.org/articles/squaresprinciples/
Lake and I discussed this a few weeks ago and decided that Hemming Plaza is in fact a civic square...so folks may also want to check this out.
http://www.pps.org/articles/benefits_public_spaces/
btw, TransForm Jax will be putting together a position paper on Hemming Plaza (and a few other downtown issues) in the coming days....once finished, it will be distributed to the Mayor and his staff as well as City Council members.
Quote from: CityLife on April 04, 2012, 02:27:01 PM
Quote from: Bill Hoff on April 04, 2012, 02:20:06 PM
- Homeless will always congregate there as long as (1) it's close to where they are served food and provided a place to sleep (2) it's shaded (3) there's places to sit (4) it's the most attractive option. End of story.
Disagree. If the park gets reclaimed by the general public through programming, food trucks, vendors, art shows, etc. many of the homeless will seek quieter and more low key spots to hang out.
I agree. I catagorize this under being "attractive" to homeless. If there's lots of activity there, it'll be less attractive to many, and a significant portion will leave on their own accord.
Quote from: CityLife on April 04, 2012, 02:27:01 PM
Disagree. If the park gets reclaimed by the general public through programming, food trucks, vendors, art shows, etc. many of the homeless will seek quieter and more low key spots to hang out.
Great choice of words there.
I would guess that people stay away not out of fear, but because they feel as though Hemming is already occupied by the homeless population that has laid claim to it, and that they are encroaching upon someone else's turf when they step foot in the plaza.
You're not going to solve that problem with a moveable picnic table and a few new speakers for your PA system.
Quote from: CityLife on April 04, 2012, 02:38:53 PM
Quote from: tufsu1 on April 04, 2012, 02:37:02 PM
Quote from: Ocklawaha on April 04, 2012, 01:34:59 PM
TUFSU1, DID YOU REALLY WRITE THAT? Far out man!
write what Ock?
That Big Brother needs a better view. Would be my guess.
I wrote that sentiment a ways back.
For an example of a park with great sight lines, look at the Main Street pocket park. It has all the sight lines in the world, but it still is not embraced by the public. I agree that a park in Manhattan was a bad park to use as the example. What happened to our 'peer' cities?? Couldn't we pick a park there as an example?? Manhattan has 2M+ people in an area the size of our urban core neighborhoods. Even poorly designed spaces are going to look vibrant due to mere volume of people.
Ummmm........ I just looked at Bryant Park on google maps, and it looks like we are trying to make Hemming look as little like that park as possible. It is surrounded by large shade trees, has dozens of tables for eating and whatnot, and has small vendors stands throughout the eastern side. The only two similarities the two have is that they are both next to a library.
Does anyone know if you can have purchase restricted seating in a public park? For example, could you add a cafe to Hemming Plaza and have a seating area strictly reserved for paying cafe customers?
Quote from: tufsu1 on April 04, 2012, 02:41:29 PM
btw, TransForm Jax will be putting together a position paper on Hemming Plaza (and a few other downtown issues) in the coming days....once finished, it will be distributed to the Mayor and his staff as well as City Council members.
Could you please put in there somewhere how some people feel ignored and are a little PO'd about this dumbass proposal? Surely you have the literary eloquence to properly convey my overall pissivity without the coarse language. I'd be eternally grateful.
So the plan is to eventually remove all the mature shade trees (from a park...surrounded by asphalt...in Florida) and replace with low growing shrubs to preserve sight lines for security cameras? All for only half a million dollars?? WTF?!?
That is just infuriatingly bug nuts crazy. Someone--Mayor Brown, City Council, Metro Jacksonvillians with torches and pitchforks--needs to put the kibosh on this "idea".
The plan calls for removing 32 trees....I plan to visit the park tonight and count to see how many are there currently
Quote from: tufsu1 on April 04, 2012, 04:46:26 PM
The plan calls for removing 32 trees....I plan to visit the park tonight and count to see how many are there currently
Just based on a rough Google Earth count I just did, 32 trees would basically equate to flattening the entire park.
If there are more than 32 trees in the plaza, it's not by much.
I can clearly say that the sub committee members lack common sense, and may I push further to say they are stupid and ignorance as well?
Good riddance! Save the bloody trees! That's how I REMEMBER Hemming Plaza!
-Josh
I was just in the park snapping a few pictures to show how many homeless are in the plaza during art walk and how many are there on a regular day at the same time. Gonna go back tommorow for those shots and will post them.
Didn't count all the trees, but I suspect 32 is at least 75% of all trees.
Quote from: tufsu1 on April 04, 2012, 04:46:26 PM
The plan calls for removing 32 trees....I plan to visit the park tonight and count to see how many are there currently
I've been wanting to do that as well. The circumfrence on these trees should also be included in the data. Some serious pruning maybe but not the total removal.
Honestly, I think that there are higher priorities right now than fixing Hemming Park. It is ok for now. Wouldn't that $100,000 be better spent on actually addressing the root causes of our homelessness problem or helping our libraries stay open or making improvements to infrastructure that actually creates jobs? I say that any low or no cost improvements that you can do such as partnering with the Garden Club or teaming up with MOCA/UNF to create public art would be great, but we would be fine without a lot of these changes that supposedly improve the park.
+1. Low cost programming should be the solution for right now.
so there were homeless people in the park this evening...and guess what...you basically couldn't tell....why...becuase there were lots of other people there
Folks....the park needs just three things....programming, programming, and programming!!!
oh...now this is getting good....
http://jacksonville.com/opinion/blog/403455/steve-patterson/2012-04-04/jacksonville-panel-considers-outside-help-hemming
Looks like the next Hemming Park meeting is to be at 10:00 a.m. on the 18th of April in the Davis room at city hall. All interested persons are invited. Therefore, if anyone wants to convey their opinions about the trees and the removable tables etc, the 18th will be the time. I will probably not attend the meeting, as I've sort of washed my hands of the issue at the meetings. I will however, send an email or two to Denise Lee and a couple of others who are concerned about the park issue.
Legislation is now being introduced to allow 4 hour parking around City Hall.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bc/Parque_de_Bolivar_de_Medellin.JPG)
MEDELLINS 'Hemming Plaza' back in the day, Bolivar Park.
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-ACvcH1s7-Fc/Tl1yOQLmciI/AAAAAAAABHk/RX4VF-SkRVA/s1600/21-Fuente+del+Parque+Bol%25C3%25ADvar+en+1922br.jpg)
Bolivar Park circa 1940
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/TRAVEL%20COLOMBIA%20and%20Latin%20America/Parque_de_Bolivar-Medellin1.jpg)
Bolivar park before a popular artist movement overran the park. Yes it DID GET NASTY, then the city conceded.
(http://farm2.staticflickr.com/1425/905413500_d5deb26f0c_z.jpg)
Bolivar Park today, one driver of Colombia's red hot tourism, THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS when Dead-Girls-Don't-Dance's idea is extrapolated out to it's fullest.
(http://farm2.staticflickr.com/1068/905412180_6e370a57d5_z.jpg)
Today the city proudly shows off the park and you'll get polite smiles if you mention 'that band of hippies that took over'.
(http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/50428650.jpg)
One of my favorites in Medellin, The Park of Lights, a stark concrete plaza with fountains and 75' high spires.
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3116/3157410160_f8f88516c4_z.jpg)
A view across the fountain.
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/TRAVEL%20COLOMBIA%20and%20Latin%20America/park-of-light-medelliin.jpg)
The stunning park bursts to life at night drawing crowds from around the world.
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/TRAVEL%20COLOMBIA%20and%20Latin%20America/medellin-festival-of-lights.jpg)
Fountains, did I mention fountains? We have one muy grande, and one pequeno in Hemming Plaza.
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/TRAVEL%20COLOMBIA%20and%20Latin%20America/medellin-animated-fountain.jpg)
Medellin has several too, and EVERY ONE OF THEM would be well worth a short trip off I-95, just saying. The animated cartoon figures and holographic images debued to tens of thousands of enthusiastic spectators, “Vida†is located in front of the EPM building, Colombia’s largest utilities provider. Vida’s elaborate multi-colored lights and next-generation fountain dancing capabilities were showcased during a real-time, highly synchronized live orchestral performance celebrating “Los Alumbrados,†South America’s “Festival of Lights.†Vida continues to be a major tourist draw throughout the continent.
But then there is Hemming Plaza:
Remove the trees
Remove the furniture
Remove the life
Remove the park
God forbid that Jacksonville would want people in the park.
BTW, aren't many of those people "the wrong color?"Maybe they just smell bad? Sounds like a swift butt kicking from the local NAACP or a charity collation, Sierra Club? might be in order, shall I call, or will some of you? I think WE ALL KNOW what is going on here.
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/CRITICAL%20Special%20Effects%20Images/redneck-boat.jpg)
We need to get all these minorities out-a-here so we can bring in "OUR" people!
TUFSU1 Here ya go, sorry for the silence, been at the VA all afternoon. UGGH.
Quotethe big problem here is that the loudest voices on the commmittee were those concerned about "safety and security"
Taking down trees so cameras have good sight lines....really? Police state anyone?
The photographs of the tree canopied plaza look inviting to me. I notice that at least one-museum fronts the park, as well. While anti-vagrancy laws can be enforced, it seems like greater success will come from adding vendors, cafes, and cultural events. Maintaining the landscape and keeping the plaza free of rubbish are equally important. I certainly think that trees should be removed only if they are ready to come down of their own accord.
Actually, San Diego is attempting to redo the much smaller Horton Plaza. It is a small, Victorian era park (soon to be enlarged) that suffers the same problems ascribed to Hemming Plaza. The project went through a public outreach over the course of about nine-months. I attended several meetings/workshops/presentations. The final plan includes a cafe, additional fountain, ArtsTix booth (sells same day, 1/2 price tickets to local cultural offerings), new restrooms, restoration of the original part of the park amd its fountain to Secretary of the Interior Standards, and a promise by the owners of the adjacent Horton Plaza Shopping Center to activate the park with events more than 200 days per year (I've gotta see this?!). There will be both hardscape and landscape, much like Hemming Plaza. Finally, the architectural torcheres with special lighting, and the interactive fountain are supposed to also enliven the space.
Centre City Development Corporation is in the process of trying to raise the budget shortfall; about $2 million.
You can see the renderings on the home page at: ccdc.com.
It seems like Jacksonville misses the "public participation" part of the equation?
Here are a few pics and a brief video I snapped last time I was in Bryant Park, for reference.
Such an unbelievably beautiful park.
One thing it does have in common with Hemming Plaza is that is partially anchored by the main New York Public Library.
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a373/KenFSU/IMG_4403.jpg)
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a373/KenFSU/IMG_4399.jpg)
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a373/KenFSU/IMG_4400.jpg)
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a373/KenFSU/IMG_4402.jpg)
(http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a373/KenFSU/th_MVI_4397.jpg) (http://s15.photobucket.com/albums/a373/KenFSU/?action=view¤t=MVI_4397.mp4)
Isn't the library essentially IN Bryant Park? How vibrant is Bryant Park's Outer Square? Are the surrounding buildings across the street from the park open seven days a week? Does two sides of Bryant Park face structures with only one entrance the entire block, which happen to open from 8-5 Monday - Friday only? What takes place on a park's perimeter is just as important as what takes place in it.
Took a stroll through Hemming last night at Art walk... Saw a few who could have possibly been "homeless"... most were orbiting about the periphery... one group was playing cards(gasp). Removing chairs, benches, tables and trees is NOT the answer for Hemming... the answer is right in front of us. ???
You can't help but notice that the park doesn't look too bad when more people are in it. Programming and additional amenities are clearly the answer. The talk of removing things, flattening it and getting rid of the fountain should not even be on the discussion table.
Exactly. I used to think the problem was corruption. I now think it is stupidity. I continuously think of what Ron Chamblin said about how hard it is to get a startup business going in such a toxic environment. He should have got paid for his service to the downtown (or awarded grants/ tax breaks or whatever). Whoever the people(s) that make downtown a toxic business environment must be removed or nothing will change. But my question is... who are they? I mean downtown contributes such a pathetic tax revenue for the city that one cannot possibly use such an excuse. What is the excuse to make downtown so hard to survive in? To pay for unsustainable sprawl in other parts of the city? You can see how one problem becomes another problem and another problem and sold to the people as another problem (bums in Hemming Plaza)- to by fixed my f***n musical chairs- that will cost us dearly!
Isn't the truth that Jacksonville is far from alone in it's struggle with Downtown? Or even the rest of the issues that are found across the city? The key seems to be how each city handles it's issues. Do they give police powers to their code enforcement departments? Do they mow down their historic structures? Do they remove trees and destroy parks just to move on a group of people the leadership does not like?
When you look at how this city reacts to issues, the steps the leadership seems to prefer to take, you realize that all those actions are hindering someone. Don't like a group of people in a park? Hinder their ability to be there. Don't like the fact that owners of historic structure can't afford to fix it? Hinder their attempts at doing anything with it so you can tear it down. This city has gotten very good at hindering to solve its problems. The problem is, problems are seldom solved that way, they have a tendency to fester and get worse.
It sounds overly simplistic, but problems are far easier to solve by helping. You help that home owner figure out how to stabilize his structure and then who wins? The entire community because the structure is made safe and is preserved for better times. The same works for Downtown. The ways to help have been stated on this forum many, many times. Make it inviting to be downtown. Make parking free and easy. Help those people in the park with a day center. Help that lunch crowd by letting the food trucks set up by the park. Improve the sitting arrangements in the park, don't take them away. Don't give cash incentives to huge corporations that take the money and run, but give it to the small mom and pops that will open downtown and stay a while.
Simple, easy. Help not hinder.
I think all cities do at least a little bit of "hindering" as you say, and all cities have torn down and made mistakes before. As we have all basically stated, I think the main difference is that many other cities have also accomplished attracting and growing businesses in their CBDs, and have enacted policies that work whereby they don't have to literally beg a mid-size company just to come to downtown (all at the same time as literally running small businesses out).
Every city has a homeless "issue". Look at DC and San Francisco, parts of Manhattan and Chicago's Loop/South Loop. All of these areas are fine with their homeless overall, but all of these cities have also shipped homeless out and "hindered" them in some way at some point. The difference is that they also created environments for non-homeless people to work, prosper and enjoy.
^Jax certainly isn't alone. Basically every city's downtown declined mid century. Every one of them has struggled to find their footing and made serious errors. However, many of them have found ways to recover to various levels. There are quite a few downtowns that are at our level or worse, but ours is pretty low on the list. Even compared to the rest of Florida, which is characterized by depleted urban cores and booming postwar "new growth" in low density suburban and exurban areas, our downtown is behind basically every other large city in the state.
On a positive note, look to Orlando - a place with even worse sprawl, with even more of its population living away from the urban core, and with even more to do away from the city. But in spite of that they've managed to cultivate a nice urban environment 24 hours a day. If they can do it, anyone can.
And, it should be noted, downtown Orlando has a much worse homeless issue than downtown Jacksonville. But no one cares.
The REAL solution to Hemming Park is PEOPLE.
Add something that will drive PEOPLE to the park.
The subcommittee members can't even grasp this bloody-hell simple concept.
-Josh
If the trees are "distressed", is there no consideration of replacement. Shade in this town, for most of the year, is inviting and should be considered an asset. The idea that the city would spend money to remove healthy trees from this (or any) park is one that I cannot understand. Less trees = Less inviting = Less people.
If we are serious about bringing businesses and residents to the area, this is a critical decision. I completely agree with Ennis in that to get more utility out of the money spent investment in studying and resolving the dead zones on the perimeter of the park.
What happened to this sub committee discussion? I dont remember ever reading anything that came of this.
City Council OKs $1 Million Hemming Plaza Contract
http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=543741