Metro Jacksonville

The S-Line: The Key To Urban Economic Revitalization?

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/1652033324_w6rvZFQ-M.jpg)

While much of the City of Jacksonville's economic development focus has been centered on downtown and big-ticket items such as the Duval County Courthouse and a new convention center, Metro Jacksonville exposes an amenity that surpasses them all:  The S-Line Right-of-Way.

Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2012-feb-the-s-line-the-key-to-urban-economic-revitalization

So does the funding for this already exist through the mobility plan? What is the quickest timeline for this plan to happen?

Only about $60,000 in funding exists at this point.  The mobility plan is intended to generate funding for a variety of projects that would be completed over a 20 year period.  It was approved and a moratorium was placed on the fee shortly after.  At the time, a Family Dollar had already paid $60,000 into it. 

It can't generate the funds necessary to construct anything without council letting the moratorium sunset this fall.  If that happens, the initial (roadway/transit) mobility plan projects are expected to occur over a five to ten year period.  The bike and pedestrian projects could happen a lot quicker because they are significantly cheaper.

The city council's betrayal of it's constituents to provide favors to their GOB developer insiders will not soon be forgiven or ever forgotten. (by me anyway)

It really seems like the council wants more pedestrians killed and less economic development.

Great article.  This does seem exactly what needs to happen.  The activity something like this will generate will allow many of the issues people have with the urban areas to self correct. The article also illustrates both the good and the bad about Jacksonville.  It's political leaders actually know what do to (they passed the mobility plan) but are too afraid (or greedy?) to actually allow it to be implemented (as shown by being intimated by the development lobby and passing the moratorium.).

The mobility fee funds once collected are currently set to be divvied up into 20 separate accounts - 2 for each of the 10 mobility zones.  Each zone has a bike/ped account, into which about 10 percent of the fees collected in that zone will go, with the other 90 percent into the road/rail account.  Unless this structure is changed, it is safe to say we won't see much in the way of bike/ped improvements in the short term, even though they are much cheaper.  One way to change it is to allow the City to direct a much greater proportion of the funds collected towards bike/ped improvements in the early years of its implementation -- that way we can see some meaningful results and improve public safety more quickly.  In terms of non-automotive modes of mobility, bicycle and pedestrian infrastructure are the cheapest thing going:  no capacity issues, almost no operating costs, small footprint, and often achievable without need for new right-of-way.  The current mobility plan will result in funds sitting in accounts for a long time before being spent, until the big dollars are accumulated to build one road or streetcar improvement (not to mention the operating cost issue).

I think the author overstates the significance of the moratorium in terms of collecting funds.  Instead of focusing on how we can extract more money from a mostly-dead real estate development market, how about focusing on how we can promote redevelopment and infill?  The constituents who live and work in such projects will become the future advocates for improved infrastructure in these areas.  For example, what signal are we sending to would-be developers in Riverside-Avondale with the current debate over a relative handful of parking spaces in the King Street area? 

The listing of various road and infrastructure projects and their cost underscores that our collective focus and priorities matter a great deal.  Long term, it is less about the money than it is about what we want.  It is unrealistic to collect substantial funds for projects that lack widespread support, no matter how unpopular or small the group is that we try to collect the funds from. 

QuoteInstead of focusing on how we can extract more money from a mostly-dead real estate development market, how about focusing on how we can promote redevelopment and infill?

I'm glad you mentioned this, Toi.  The mobility plan actually is set up to do just this.  In addition to the fee structure, the plan integrated comprehensive land use policies with proposed mobility improvements.  The fee itself is actually set up to encourge redevelopment and infill by leveling the cost of doing just that.  For example, infill and redevelopment projects with higher densities along existing and future transit corridors pay a significantly lower fee.  Those that don't, end up paying a higher fee.  Like the mobility fee, the land use changes were approved, so there are a chunk of areas within this city that higher densities are now allowed.  However, there's no real incentive to take advantage of these policies without the complementing fee.

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/1126388728_XM7Xi-M.jpg)

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/1126388966_ZwGeg-M.jpg)

full City of Jacksonville Mobility Plan presentation: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2010-dec-2030-mobility-plan-presentation

In addition, if we want to truly promote infill pedestrian scale development, we need to invest in the infrastructure that stimulates that development pattern.  At this point, you'll be hard pressed to find a pattern where development occurred before the infrastructure was put in place.  That's the same for an urban core and suburbs.

Unfortunately, in Jacksonville we have a problem with veering from the proven path of reality, and over complicate these issues with strategies that are typically based on unproven opinions and fears (ex. build density than invest in infrastructure, etc.).  It's a problem that we've suffered with for over 1/2 a century.  At some point, we've got to admit failure, change our policies, do the right thing, and simply get out of the way and let the free market take control.  It's simple and inexpensive.

Sure Stephen.  Look at the Business Journal's weekly reports of building permits issued, and look at the permits issued for commercial construction, week after week.  For example, this past week, I see one new commercial building permit for one new building, valued at $150K.  I don't know whether that particular building would have had to pay a mobility fee.   There was also one new home permitted for construction in Duval County.  Also, keep in mind that many projects are pre-mobility fee.  While St. Johns Town Center has had construction on several outparcels in the past couple of years and recently, that is all pre-mobility fee.   And yet, while Metro Jacksonville continues to rail against (no pun intended) the mobility fee moratorium, the JTA gas tax is heading towards the sunset, affecting its ability to borrow for infrastructure improvements right now.  I'm not trying to be mean, here, and I appreciate all of the core group's focus on these issues. I know it is hard work to provide the researched content that you all provide.  I am hopeful that the author's efforts will help show the public that other Cities have developed their infrastructure differently and with greater emphasis on things like bikeways, the pedestrian and light rail. 

Article explaining 6-cent JTA tax revenues - http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2010-06-05/story/jta-ask-council-gas-tax-increase-and-extension (http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2010-06-05/story/jta-ask-council-gas-tax-increase-and-extension)

Tom

Quote from: toi on February 22, 2012, 09:52:07 AM
Sure Stephen.  Look at the Business Journal's weekly reports of building permits issued, and look at the permits issued for commercial construction, week after week.  For example, this past week, I see one new commercial building permit for one new building, valued at $150K.  I don't know whether that particular building would have had to pay a mobility fee.   There was also one new home permitted for construction in Duval County.  Also, keep in mind that many projects are pre-mobility fee.  While St. Johns Town Center has had construction on several outparcels in the past couple of years and recently, that is all pre-mobility fee.

Keep in mind the process is a marathon, not a sprint.  Development happens in cycles.  There will be ups and downs and everyone is fully aware that this economic cycle is in a down position.  Yet if you can incentivize a method to promote quality infill development (which the plan does), you can encourage niche markets to perform better in a city that has historically made developing this niche unfeasible.

Furthermore, yes many developments are pre-mobility plan/fee.  However, they have an option to modify if they choose so.  In many cases, modification will save tons of money.  Nevertheless, all of this is moot if no program of any kind exists.  Instead of making any progress, we're simply falling further and further behind.

Last but not least, no one mentions it, but why not utilize the fee as a dedicated funding source that is used for local matching grants for various programs and P3 opportunities out there.  There's multiple innovative ways to take advantage of the concept that will speed up the implementation of several items needed to trigger quality growth, development, and job creation throughout our community.

QuoteAnd yet, while Metro Jacksonville continues to rail against (no pun intended) the mobility fee moratorium, the JTA gas tax is heading towards the sunset, affecting its ability to borrow for infrastructure improvements right now.

At this point, I'm actually fine with the gas tax situation.  I've heard arguments from both sides but I'm of the opinion that Jacksonville may be better off if JTA were revamped into a transit  only agency, leaving the roadway side of things in the hands of FDOT and COJ public works.  Fixed rail discussion aside, we've got a lot to improve with our existing mass transit operations.  More focus and accountability in this particular arena is needed.  The fact that the gas tax is sunsetting encourages needed discussion and solution making, regarding the future of JTA and its role in making Jacksonville a better place.

Ennis - thanks for your reply.  I do not disagree that the powerpoint presentation that was widely used in the promotion of the Mobility Plan emphasized the theory that infill would pay significantly less.  They used an example of Jackson Square, which had something like 60 units per acre, which would pay far far less, but the reason for that was that the trip generation model calculation had a geometric reduction in trips coming from projects that were very high density -- a density that is not likely to be common in this market for many years if ever.  I had argued to the point of being quite annoying that the City would better achieve the goal of promoting infill by making the standard per trip cost ($24.14) lower for a selected area of the City -- say Mobility Zones 7-10 under the City's maps (very roughly, areas that were initially developed between the City's founding and 1950).  To do that, one way is to delete from the list of improvements to be funded by the older areas of the City the 25% share of the SE commuter rail line that parallels the planned BRT line, and delete the 25% share of the other two commuter rail lines, and delete the Skyway Extension, which by my calcs would have cost much more than constructing an enclosed, air-conditioned bike path along the corridor they wanted to put it.  One could also argue about the need to 6-lane Philips Highway (also parallel to the BRT), whether at all or with mobility fee funds. 

I am not saying, commuter rail is bad, I am just saying, the proposed way of paying for it will hurt it from ever happening, and moreover, the bigger issue is that we have gracious plenty infrastructure in our older areas to easily handle more density, so why not recognize that and not try to charge these areas a cost much greater than their impact?  Instead of having standard mobility fee roughly 25% cheaper than in the less developed areas, make it 75% cheaper, at least for projects that have some minimum floor area ratio or density?  In the end, the committee agreed to delete the Skyway extension but then directed staff to not change the total cost of projects funded - staying at the 444 million number.  I hope we can revisit what the charges are for infill and redevelopment before the market recovers from the current depressed state.

I'm confused about a couple of details in the story. Specifically this paragraph:
"It's not a coincidence that the S-Line provides a direct rail connection between JAXPORT's Talleyrand Terminal and the Florida East Coast (FEC) Railroad's Bowden Yard on the Southside.  Now that this connection no longer exists, freight bound for FEC is shipped to the Southside by truck, speeding up the destruction of publicly maintained roads such as Emerson Street."

As far as I know, the S line never directly connected Talleyrand with Bowden Yard. To go from Talleyrand to Bowden, trains have to go either to Moncrief Yard or Simpson Yard then be moved to Bowden. And Norfolk Southern and CSX both make several trips a day with 100 car piggyback trains over the FEC Bridge to Bowden. And vice versa. So that connection is very much alive.

Quote from: toi on February 22, 2012, 10:10:40 AM
To do that, one way is to delete from the list of improvements to be funded by the older areas of the City the 25% share of the SE commuter rail line that parallels the planned BRT line, and delete the 25% share of the other two commuter rail lines, and delete the Skyway Extension, which by my calcs would have cost much more than constructing an enclosed, air-conditioned bike path along the corridor they wanted to put it.

I never heard of an enclosed air-conditioned bike path (sounds pretty crazy) but I can see excluding an entire section of the town from paying an impact fee is a political time bomb that could have sunk the entire plan before it even got to council.  Because, you're taking from other areas to pay for improvements that have greater benefit elsewhere. 

QuoteOne could also argue about the need to 6-lane Philips Highway (also parallel to the BRT), whether at all or with mobility fee funds.

This is a project that I was originally against but it makes sense, when properly coordinated with FDOT and JTA.  Philips is a rural highway with no sidewalks, poor street lighting, and dangerous biking conditions, and intersection safety crossing issues.  Any new TOD along that corridor will benefit from Philips being converted into a context sensitive urban street design.  Such a project would also allow enhanced bus service (its not real BRT) to operate along the SE corridor without federal dollars (freeing that request up for commuter rail).  Now that JTA has continued to pursue federal funds for Philips, if granted, that will basically kill commuter rail paralleling Philips for the foreseeable future.

And I believe this is probably a typo:
"In the mid-1950s, the Seaboard Coast Line Railroad's downtown freight terminal and the wharfs it served, were removed..."

ACL and SAL didn't become Seaboard Coast Line until 1967.

This map should be reason enough to make commuter rail one of our guiding priorities.
(http://fcit.usf.edu/florida/maps/pages/11900/f11989/f11989.jpg)

Quote from: aclchampion on February 22, 2012, 10:47:15 AM
And I believe this is probably a typo:
"In the mid-1950s, the Seaboard Coast Line Railroad's downtown freight terminal and the wharfs it served, were removed..."

ACL and SAL didn't become Seaboard Coast Line until 1967.

Yes, should have been SAL.  Thanks.  I'll correct that.

Quote from: aclchampion on February 22, 2012, 10:27:19 AM
I'm confused about a couple of details in the story. Specifically this paragraph:
"It's not a coincidence that the S-Line provides a direct rail connection between JAXPORT's Talleyrand Terminal and the Florida East Coast (FEC) Railroad's Bowden Yard on the Southside.  Now that this connection no longer exists, freight bound for FEC is shipped to the Southside by truck, speeding up the destruction of publicly maintained roads such as Emerson Street."

As far as I know, the S line never directly connected Talleyrand with Bowden Yard. To go from Talleyrand to Bowden, trains have to go either to Moncrief Yard or Simpson Yard then be moved to Bowden. And Norfolk Southern and CSX both make several trips a day with 100 car piggyback trains over the FEC Bridge to Bowden. And vice versa. So that connection is very much alive.

Yes, the S-Line has been gone for a few decades now.  At one point, it did allow access to the FEC without going to Simpson or Moncrief.  Today, a good chunk of freight travels by truck to all three yards.  A benefit of a publicly owned rail corridor accessing the port is that it takes the need to pull something to the NS or CSX yards before reaching FEC.  Time is money.  Imo, it's a positive anytime you can cut out the middle man.

Not doubting your word but I am going to have to check my old maps because I do not believe that Seaboard Air Line ever directly interchanged with the FEC.

Thanks.  Be sure to let us know what you find.  I'd like to know if the S-Line and SAL never physically connected to the old Jacksonville Terminal and FEC track.

Looking at the old Sanborn Maps, and some other documents, the S line came east to the old F&J Yard and then turned north. There was another connection off the F&J yard that crossed 8th Street East and ran parallel to 7th St East that belonged to SAL. It branched off and one went southeast to what is now called Eastport Yard. But the other branch never reached the port area. It terminated just east of Talleyrand Ave. The only rail connections I can find belong to the St Johns River Terminal Company (Norfolk Southern) and Municipal Dock and Terminal Railroad (Talleyrand Terminal Railroad). I believe SJRTC, SAL and ACL all interchanged at F&J Yard.  Still researching.

Thanks.  If the S-Line were re-established as a part of a municipal line between the F&J yard and Prime Osborn, what would stop FEC from being able to directly interchange at F&J with Talleyrand Terminal Railroad?  Would you consider that a realistic possibility?  Btw, for the record, I believe the city and JAXPORT would be better off buying all of the former S-Line that CSX still operates north and south of the F&J.  Making it a municipal rail corridor would basically give all three major rail carriers direct access with Talleyrand and Blount Island (assuming the S-Line between downtown and the F&J was restored).

I posted this link a few days ago, but I think it is worth reposting.

"Any major American city that solely relies on streets and highways for its transportation network will fail to remain competitive and will falter economically over time. That includes cities with bus transit systems that rely on the same streets and highways."

Here is link to an excellent article in Next American City:
http://americancity.org/buzz/entry/3361/

I'm not a transportation expert, Lakelander, but i can't see any reason to do that. FEC already interchanges with both CSX and NS and both go to the port. I can't imagine why FEC would ever want their own connection directly to Talleyrand. Their major port is Miami. And I just don't see how that could ever be possible anyway, since mass portions of the old S line aren't just buried, they are gone and theres this little obstruction called the JTA that might object to trains coming right through their yard.
Just my opinion.

As a part of JTA's commuter rail plans, JTA's yard would be reconfigured to repair the missing link.

Did not know that. That puts a whole different slant on it doesn't it?  :o

Lakelander, is the original roadbed and rail buried under the asphalt of the now bike path or did they rip up the rails and ties?

The bed is still there in some parts but it will have to be completely rebuilt. You're looking at a little over $30 million (1/2 the cost of I-95's. 8-mile pavement repair project costs) for 4-5 miles of track. However, that will be generated by the mobility fee, over time, if we actual decide to collect it.

Here is a link to JTA's commuter rail feasibility study from a few years back: http://www.jtafla.com/JTAfutureplans/Rail/

Pulling up the S-line was one of the stupidest things CSuX has ever done. Not only here in Jacksonville, but in Georgia too. And they wonder why the A-line is so congested.

  We cycled the greenway last weekend. Not complete but the asphalt and curb work is done and we couldn't resist. We weren't the only ones out there, it was hot, sticky, dirty and not even open and folks were using it. My hunch is it will be received well.

http://www.everytrail.com/view_trip.php?trip_id=1685797 (http://www.everytrail.com/view_trip.php?trip_id=1685797)

nice...had no idea they'd finished that much

Quote from: bobsim on July 23, 2012, 07:48:42 PM
  We cycled the greenway last weekend. Not complete but the asphalt and curb work is done and we couldn't resist. We weren't the only ones out there, it was hot, sticky, dirty and not even open and folks were using it. My hunch is it will be received well.

http://www.everytrail.com/view_trip.php?trip_id=1685797 (http://www.everytrail.com/view_trip.php?trip_id=1685797)

I hope so. We biked all the way through it today (thanks for the map BTW), but went in on the Myrtle end. There was A LOT of broken glass & the trail enters at (and goes through) some rough parts of town. I personally don't mind any of that (besides the glass, because flats suck), but could see how it might turn some people off. Also the breaks in the trail when you have to use the streets aren't apparent. There's no signs or anything indicating where to go. Hopefully that will be added?

Anyways, I hope its enough of a hit so it gets extended (esp down into Riverside). Right now its mostly a recreation trail in an urban environment. And I really think where the entrances are will turn some people off & decrease riders (both because of the blight & the fact that they're not close to anything or easy to bike to for most people). If it went from Riverside, up & over through downtown & Springfield, then down into the Eastside/Stadium area, then it would be a game changer IMO.

Looking for something else but just came across another S-Line shot.  This image was taken looking north along the S-Line at Kings Road in 1955.  The stacks of the 5th & Cleveland incinerator can been seen rising in the background.

(http://www.floridamemory.com/fpc/spottswood/sp01956.jpg)
State Archives of Florida, Florida Memory, http://floridamemory.com/items/show/52863

Nice shot of the old crossing watchman's tower. Those were built to standard railroad plans, from a book of plans issued by each company. The tower still standing is pretty cool too because you can see that automatic light signals have been installed at the crossing. I remember well when the crossings at Yukon, Ortega Farms, Ortega Hills etc. were protected by a simple crossbuck on a wooden post.


I also remember when a McCalls? Heating Oil Fuel Truck got crosswise of 'The City of Miami' at the south Ortega Hills Crossing.  The truck and it's driver were scattered half way to Yukon and weirdly the drivers blood stained bible was found draped over one of the rails.  The idiots on the 5 O:clock news said the driver was rushed to the hospital where he was pronounced dead.  If they rushed him anywhere it was in so many mayonnaise jars. There was no fire but the truck and driver literally exploded in a million pieces. Thank God we have better crossing protection today.

It took me a while to figure out where this shot actually was.  Everything in that image has either been pulled up or demolished except the old Standard Oil red brick warehouse in the background.  Anyway, its a great image to show what can actually go into 60' of rail ROW.

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8340/8226418844_e07a88987f_m.jpg)

Doesn't seem close does it? Aerial shows the foundations left behind.

I assume that the tower was for the Blanche Street Industrial Lead?

Quote from: spuwho on November 28, 2012, 12:16:00 AM
I assume that the tower was for the Blanche Street Industrial Lead?

Before the railroad crossing gates were fully  automated, a watchman located in the small one room tower would lower the gates when a Seaboard Air Line Railroad train approached the crossing, and raise the gates after the train cleared the crossing.  The gates were raised and lowered by electric motors at the base of the gates which the watchman controlled from inside the tower.

At crossings where there were no electric motors or gates the crossing watchman spotted approaching trains, then went downstairs to block the crossing, using flags or fusees (small flares). Though some crossings were protected by train activated crossing equipment, where back and forth switching was common, a crossing watchman could more precisely control the traffic, as well as pedestrians.  Many watchman locations were required by city ordinance, wonder if Jacksonville's were?

So while the industrial lead may have played a part in the location of the tower, the job itself was more likely to have been to protect traffic including pedestrian, horse, rail and automobile.

Here are a few more from around Florida, one is Jacksonville and one is Tampa, the others unknown locations:

Hmm, I guess technology killed thousands of crossing gate jobs....

Anyways, has there been any talk about extending this & integrating it into the areas where people actually live? Because honestly I don't see it being used much if that doesn't happen (see my post above). Most people I talk to in the biking community doesn't even know this exists.

I feel like this could be another one of those Jax projects that gets half-assed & then forgotten about.

Quote from: thelakelander on November 28, 2012, 02:32:22 PM
Hmm, I guess technology killed thousands of crossing gate jobs....

Yes, funny that the tower abandonments didn't get the same 'THE RAILROADS ARE DYING' headlines that branchline abandonments got in the late 60's and 70's.

Quote from: peestandingup on November 28, 2012, 03:39:05 PM
Anyways, has there been any talk about extending this & integrating it into the areas where people actually live? Because honestly I don't see it being used much if that doesn't happen (see my post above). Most people I talk to in the biking community doesn't even know this exists.

I feel like this could be another one of those Jax projects that gets half-assed & then forgotten about.

More likely it is a case of building a bike trail then following that up a couple of years later by laying railroad tracks on top of it, at least if they want it to actually carry people they'll convert it to rail.

Quote from: Ocklawaha on November 28, 2012, 04:13:48 PM

Quote from: peestandingup on November 28, 2012, 03:39:05 PM
Anyways, has there been any talk about extending this & integrating it into the areas where people actually live? Because honestly I don't see it being used much if that doesn't happen (see my post above). Most people I talk to in the biking community doesn't even know this exists.

I feel like this could be another one of those Jax projects that gets half-assed & then forgotten about.

More likely it is a case of building a bike trail then following that up a couple of years later by laying railroad tracks on top of it, at least if they want it to actually carry people they'll convert it to rail.

Too bad they won't do both. (Rail AND bike path next to it)

If you complete the S Line past Load King to Beaver, then run it down Beaver to Stockton.  Stockton could be made bike friendly down to riverside and then through to the riverwalk.  Then you complete the Hogan's creek Greenway to the other end of the S Line and you have a circular bike route that is pretty lengthy through the core neighborhoods. 

Other than the Hogan's creek portion (which is a very important part), you could get the remainder put together in a short time.  For the time being, making Boulevard/Broad, Pearl, or Main more bike friendly could complete an on-street loop. 

Quote from: peestandingup on November 28, 2012, 03:39:05 PM
Anyways, has there been any talk about extending this & integrating it into the areas where people actually live? Because honestly I don't see it being used much if that doesn't happen (see my post above). Most people I talk to in the biking community doesn't even know this exists.

I feel like this could be another one of those Jax projects that gets half-assed & then forgotten about.

What is "this"?  Are you talking about the existing S-Line bike trail or the S-Line as a "rails with trails" corridor?  If rails with trails, the plan which is included in the Mobility Plan, JTA long range plans, and North Florida TPO's plans call for the S-Line to be a part of a commuter rail line that would connect downtown with the airport area and Nassau County.

Quote from: thelakelander on November 28, 2012, 05:03:07 PM

Quote from: peestandingup on November 28, 2012, 03:39:05 PM
Anyways, has there been any talk about extending this & integrating it into the areas where people actually live? Because honestly I don't see it being used much if that doesn't happen (see my post above). Most people I talk to in the biking community doesn't even know this exists.

I feel like this could be another one of those Jax projects that gets half-assed & then forgotten about.

What is "this"?  Are you talking about the existing S-Line bike trail or the S-Line as a "rails with trails" corridor?  If rails with trails, the plan which is included in the Mobility Plan, JTA long range plans, and North Florida TPO's plans call for the S-Line to be a part of a commuter rail line that would connect downtown with the airport area and Nassau County.

Obviously I was talking about the biking trail since that was what I mentioned (and all I mentioned) in my previous posts. The rails with trails seems like a pipe dream at this point. A fun & nice dream, but still. The bike trail is there now & is getting work done.

So I take it that's a "no" on extending it where people actually live & want to go? If so, I feel like thats a major missed opportunity for getting an actual "biking loop" that many other cities are doing that connects all their urban neighborhoods together for a real alternative to driving. Like I said months ago, as it stands now its just a bike trail that happens to be in an urban setting. One that quite frankly no one knows about since the entrances are in, let's say, less desirable places.

And I understand that bringing these things to blighted areas is key to their rejuvenation, but you still have to include the places that are currently passed that point too (like Riverside) in the plans so it actually gets used. Or else its just gonna sit there forgotten about (like the Skyway). Its the lack of vision & half-assed approach we've seen time & time again here.

In sum, going "nowhere to nowhere" seems like a great way for it to be underutilized. Not counting of course if the actual rails WITH trails plan gets implemented while we're all still alive. ;D

I didn't see in the post I responded to where you specified "trail"....my bad.  As a part of the mobility plan and fee, what's there today would become a part of a citywide bicycle and pedestrian network.  Hopefully, that answers your overall question and concerns.

Btw, the existing bike trail was recently extended north, a few miles, to Gateway.  At this point, it doesn't appeal to yuppies and recreational riders but it is used by those living in the Northside neighborhoods it currently penetrates.

Where is progress at this point in the northern sector of development?

Are you referring to the S-Line as a rail corridor or bike path?  The bike path to Gateway Mall is complete.  The S-Line as an economic development stimulating rail link is still on paper.  However, it is a priority project of the Mobility Plan and Fee.

What can an urban path do for a city?  Check the video out below...I've been hearing about this "problem" of overcrowding for a while, and there are another 2,000 units UC at this time set to deliver this year.

http://www.youtube.com/v/8NMJyziq7lY?hl=en_US&version=3

Quote from: thelakelander on November 28, 2012, 07:37:55 PM
Btw, the existing bike trail was recently extended north, a few miles, to Gateway.  At this point, it doesn't appeal to yuppies and recreational riders but it is used by those living in the Northside neighborhoods it currently penetrates.

I didn't go all the way through to the Northside, but I was out all day yesterday on the first half (from Myrtle Ave all through Springfield & back again) & IMO this thing is seriously being underutilized. I counted maybe 4-6 other cyclists on my trip. And if any of you were out yesterday, everywhere was CRAZY crowded & lots of stuff going on all over the core, plus a beautiful day. This is a problem.

What also makes me think no one uses it, other than my own observations, is little things like social media. Hardly any checkins on Foursquare, or Instagram, etc. I know thats not exactly a great measure, but its something. Especially with yuppies, millennials, and the younger demographic. All of this tells me that they're not using it, nor probably even know it exists. And how would they know? You never see anything about it (other than stories here), its not apparent that something is even there when looking at maps, the entrance on the Riverside side is in a mostly abandoned section of a former industrial area, etc.

This is typical Jacksonville half-assed planning at its finest. The very LEAST they could do is have more literature about it & have a safer "on road trail" or bike lanes with signage that points people in the direction of the S-Line from Riverside Ave or somewhere like that. But my guess is it'll sit here like this for years & be forgotten about.

Millennials, yuppies, etc. are never going to use the S-Line or any other facility in an area of town that isn't comfortable to them until that facility is tied directly into someplace that is.  From my experience, most of the people in those neighborhoods using it are on foot.  I notice a decent number of school age children use it to get to/from nearby schools and bus stops during the weeks. With all of that said, the mobility plan does provide funding to connect the S-Line with the Baldwin Trail, the rest of the urban core and city in general. We just need to make sure we don't lose or significantly delay such funding by continuing moratoriums on the fee.

Quote from: thelakelander on March 17, 2013, 12:29:44 PM
Millennials, yuppies, etc. are never going to use the S-Line or any other facility in an area of town that isn't comfortable to them until that facility is tied directly into someplace that is.  From my experience, most of the people in those neighborhoods using it are on foot.  I notice a decent number of school age children use it to get to/from nearby schools and bus stops during the weeks. With all of that said, the mobility plan does provide funding to connect the S-Line with the Baldwin Trail, the rest of the urban core and city in general. We just need to make sure we don't lose or significantly delay such funding by continuing moratoriums on the fee.

They might if they knew it was even there. You have to remember that people in Riverside only have the Riverwalk & the road to ride on (which is extremely hit or miss), and thats basically it. You're right that most probably wouldn't because of where the entrance is (scary abandoned industrial area), but I bet some would at least give it a try if there was A: A clear path with signage pointing the way, even if the path used the existing road with bike lanes or sharrows. And B: More notoriety of the path/paths in general.

Even if the moratoriums continue (which I personally think they will), there's still minor things they could do to make it somewhat useful/attractive. But discontinuing the moratorium & building it out properly would of course be the ultimate solution. I feel the trail will become stagnant & forgotten about otherwise left as is.

The S-Line could turn out even without major city funding help.  The city should really publicly be "on board", and maybe set up some sort of enterprise or tax exemption zone, but it doesn't really truly need to go to great lengths to make the S-Line a public success if the private sector shows any interest in its potential.

Lake I know in another post you mentioned that you didn't think the Beltline was special and that it should be the norm for cities (and I agree with the latter), but having worked as a volunteer with ABLP (there's 501(c)3 Atlanta Beltline Partnership and Atlanta Beltline Inc, connected but serving two purposes), I have seen the work that goes into it, mainly stemming from private sector involvement and general public support (i.e. volunteers).  It really is special, which is why it attracts so much national and even international attention.

It's true the city designated a new TIF district around the entire 28 mile length of the Beltline and has expressed support for the project, which has helped spur new development, but the extent to which the Beltline transformed formerly rundown inner city areas is a testament to the will of the engaged private sector in the city.  It's a project that receives similar treatment as say the National Center for Civil and Human Rights or the High Museum...I probably ran or volunteered at 5-6 5Ks for various segments of the Beltline...every event in the city has a booth to spread awareness.  The marketing is incredible, there is not one person out of the 6 million in the region who doesn't now know about the Beltline...in fact every Saturday there are bus tours of the 28 mile length, and before parts of it became reality, there was a 6 month waiting list to get on one of these bus tours!

Just check out the Facebook pages, the web sites, etc to get a brief glimpse at the effort put into it, the kind of effort that is needed to really make the S-Line, or Pinellas Trail, or any converted ROW a successful urban public space.

While there has been city motivation, it's the success of Beltline leadership, community wide efforts and fundraising to actually build the thing, that has led to a heated development/redevelopment market.  My own firm is pouring almost a quarter billion dollars into a project along the Beltline...we bought the building from the city and our interest was sparked when the Beltline began to be more than just talk and vision, but actually something that was happening (of course my own firm and employees therein were but a small part in trying to make the vision a reality before we decided to make the Beltline a large part of the portfolio of one our funds).

The kind of private interest/effort that has spurred CoRk can be extended to the S-Line, and amplified (it takes mucho dinero and perseverance to make any of this sort of stuff a real success).  Talk about a real great way to connect neighborhoods and people!  One news channel did a video test, posted on YouTube of car vs pedestrian on Beltline vs biker on Beltline to get from point A to point B.  Biker won by something like 5 minutes over car for a 2-3 mile trip (of course that's also Atlanta traffic, not really a problem in inner city Jax).

https://www.facebook.com/#!/atlantabeltline?fref=ts
http://beltline.org/

^In comparison to the Pinellas Trail (when I made that statement), I don't think the Beltline is any level of "special" above it. A significant amount of collaboration and thinking went into those particular projectst than the S-Line, which some of our older forum members will remember, many on Metro Jacksonville opposed it's haphazard planning a few years back. 

Quote from: peestandingup on March 17, 2013, 06:24:00 PM

Quote from: thelakelander on March 17, 2013, 12:29:44 PM
Millennials, yuppies, etc. are never going to use the S-Line or any other facility in an area of town that isn't comfortable to them until that facility is tied directly into someplace that is.  From my experience, most of the people in those neighborhoods using it are on foot.  I notice a decent number of school age children use it to get to/from nearby schools and bus stops during the weeks. With all of that said, the mobility plan does provide funding to connect the S-Line with the Baldwin Trail, the rest of the urban core and city in general. We just need to make sure we don't lose or significantly delay such funding by continuing moratoriums on the fee.

They might if they knew it was even there. You have to remember that people in Riverside only have the Riverwalk & the road to ride on (which is extremely hit or miss), and thats basically it. You're right that most probably wouldn't because of where the entrance is (scary abandoned industrial area), but I bet some would at least give it a try if there was A: A clear path with signage pointing the way, even if the path used the existing road with bike lanes or sharrows. And B: More notoriety of the path/paths in general.

The mobility plan/fee are intended to private everything you mention here.  However, keep in mind, we're talking about a poorly planned project that had nothing to do with attracting people from Riverside to utilize. It was the simple case of the city getting a rails-to-trails grant for an abandoned piece of rail ROW the city owned.  If that "free money" were not there, neither would the S-Line Greenway be today.  The mobility plan/fee is the only thing I'm aware of that even acknowledged its existence back in 2009-2011 and attempted to utilize it as a part of an overall connected bike network.

QuoteEven if the moratoriums continue (which I personally think they will), there's still minor things they could do to make it somewhat useful/attractive. But discontinuing the moratorium & building it out properly would of course be the ultimate solution. I feel the trail will become stagnant & forgotten about otherwise left as is.

Hopefully, you're wrong and we can continue to get enough people from the community to fight to keep another moratorium from happening.  Even minor things cost money and we at least have a funding source to start with, with the mobility fee.  Also, the mobility fee isn't an end all solution.  It's only a start.  Lose that and we go back to ground zero with no sustainable local funding to do what you mentioned above.

Heard from a friend that about 3 of his cyclist friends got held up & robbed at gun point on the trail a couple weeks ago. Police were called, but never responded. Figures, I've talked about the shadiness of the trail & lack of people presence for a while now & how it will ultimately impact it.

Other cities have experienced similar problems with their urban trails & have taken action to fix it (like cycle cops patrolling the trails). Not that I think Jax will do that (or even put any of that type of resources towards it), but still. You cant put a trail through blighted parts of an urban core, with not a lot of people presence & with the entrances themselves being in similar areas that are also difficult to get to, without there being problems.

Quote from: peestandingup on July 26, 2012, 09:36:12 PM

Quote from: bobsim on July 23, 2012, 07:48:42 PM
  We cycled the greenway last weekend. Not complete but the asphalt and curb work is done and we couldn't resist. We weren't the only ones out there, it was hot, sticky, dirty and not even open and folks were using it. My hunch is it will be received well.

http://www.everytrail.com/view_trip.php?trip_id=1685797 (http://www.everytrail.com/view_trip.php?trip_id=1685797)

I hope so. We biked all the way through it today (thanks for the map BTW), but went in on the Myrtle end. There was A LOT of broken glass & the trail enters at (and goes through) some rough parts of town. I personally don't mind any of that (besides the glass, because flats suck), but could see how it might turn some people off.

The broken glass, and lack of maintenance, is still a major problem with this trail. Saw this on R.A.M. Ride's Facebook today when the group went out for a ride this morning: https://www.facebook.com/197736616951856/photos/a.623459381046242.1073741864.197736616951856/655161374542709/

As I've said here many times, this stuff is typical & the general lack of the city giving a shit is very apparent. S-Line being part of "the key to urban revitalization" with these bone heads at the wheel? Don't count on it.

I can see no one's doing a followup to this "economic revitalization" piece, or even asking questions as to why this trail is being so poorly maintained. The old "build it & let it go to shit" Jax mindset we all know & love is hard at work with this thing.

Here was my ride on Saturday (which BTW I saw exactly zero other cyclists on the entire trail). The glass stretches as far as you can see in this pic. Also notice how "maintenance" have simply pushed the broken pieces to the edges instead of removing them. Wonderful.

(http://i.imgur.com/YrmGVFs.jpg)

Without fixed rail, there won't be any type of true revitalization along this corridor. It still has potential, but until we implement, it will remain just that......potential.

Broken glass lasts forever, it also has many irregular angles and edges, thus it packs well with crushed granite. Nothing wrong here that 3,000 cross ties per mile and a couple lengths of 120# CWR wouldn't fix.

Agreed. You want revitalization? Better get busy laying some rail.

Quote from: thelakelander on May 14, 2014, 07:42:47 PM
Without fixed rail, there won't be any type of true revitalization along this corridor. It still has potential, but until we implement, it will remain just that......potential.

I get that, but because we don't have rail yet doesn't mean you let things like this go down the crapper does it? That's a great way to create loss of interest, which then dominos into other things. This is shameful & whoever is responsible for maintaining this should be held accountable. I mean, it would be different if this weren't such a common thing, but it's like this literally every..single..time I've been on this trail. Is it any wonder no one uses it?

And I get that it's the residents of the blighted neighborhoods that the trail goes through treating it like its a garbage dump (with probably a healthy dose of gentrification backlash), but still. Proper maintenance should be a given on public pathways. If this were on the street you'd never hear the end of it.

Quote from: peestandingup on May 14, 2014, 09:35:43 PM

Quote from: thelakelander on May 14, 2014, 07:42:47 PM
Without fixed rail, there won't be any type of true revitalization along this corridor. It still has potential, but until we implement, it will remain just that......potential.

I get that, but because we don't have rail yet doesn't mean you let things like this go down the crapper does it? That's a great way to create loss of interest, which then dominos into other things. This is shameful & whoever is responsible for maintaining this should be held accountable. I mean, it would be different if this weren't such a common thing, but it's like this literally every..single..time I've been on this trail. Is it any wonder no one uses it?

And I get that it's the residents of the blighted neighborhoods that the trail goes through treating it like its a garbage dump (with probably a healthy dose of gentrification backlash), but still. Proper maintenance should be a given on public pathways. If this were on the street you'd never hear the end of it.

I'm not defending the lack of maintenance but this is nothing out of the ordinary in Jacksonville. Most of our public spaces and parks are poorly maintained.  This is essentially a linear park through a forgotten distressed area of town. If we can't properly maintain a high profile public space like Hemming, I wouldn't expect much maintenance of this space either.

Also, while other cities often may have higher taxes and higher per capita spending on public parks, I can cite several examples of rails to trails that are publicly maintained but privately financed.  Where Jax is lacking is corporate and private sponsorship of "places".  Lots of people and companies put up $$ for Wolfson's and charitable organizations, but if this were any other city we're typically envious of there would be corporate sponsorships for this and an endowment for the Emerald Necklace with an already cleaned up and usable fabulous city park.

Quote from: thelakelander on May 14, 2014, 07:42:47 PM
Without fixed rail, there won't be any type of true revitalization along this corridor. It still has potential, but until we implement, it will remain just that......potential.

A trail that is strictly for walking/running/biking can be a facilitator of revitalization.  The Swamp Rabbit  Trail in Greenville County SC has completed reinvented the small town of Traveler's Rest.  Property values and storefront occupancy in the downtown area has probably tripled or quadrupled since it opened. It gets over 400,000 users per year and is seeing double digit growth annually.  Traveler's Rest, or TR as is it often called, has less population than Springfield.   

http://greenvillerec.com/swamprabbit (http://greenvillerec.com/swamprabbit)

^Yes, NYC's High Line, Atlanta's Beltline and Pinellas County's Pinellas Trail are three other examples. Unfortunately, I seriously doubt the S-Line will or has the ability to do the same. It's a disconnected, bare frills facility within a different urban setting.

If this line were in any other part of town it wouldnt be in such dire conditions and basically forgotten.  As we all know this city has and has always had an issue with african americans of which these neighborhoods are predominately.  If this were in mandrin it would be properly kept?

Quote from: Rob68 on May 16, 2014, 08:12:31 AM
If this line were in any other part of town it wouldnt be in such dire conditions and basically forgotten.  As we all know this city has and has always had an issue with african americans of which these neighborhoods are predominately.  If this were in mandrin it would be properly kept?

Agree. Old areas of the city are often forgotten, the local representatives for this area need to lobby for this type of efficient use. Also, as the article points out, there are thousands of employees on the direct route for this line who could benefit. Not to mention downtown workers, etc.

I find it wierd that we have so many roads that need help but the roads in the nicest neighborhoods are alway being redone, repainted and manicured...The street in front of every country club is kept nice and neat at all times...lets not lie to eachother..theres plenty of cash in this city when our roads suck but we have the largest football screen in the world...we are a fucked up city.

Quote from: Rob68 on May 16, 2014, 08:12:31 AM
If this line were in any other part of town it wouldnt be in such dire conditions and basically forgotten.  As we all know this city has and has always had an issue with african americans of which these neighborhoods are predominately.  If this were in mandrin it would be properly kept?

I disagree.  I'd say many of the parks in the "rich" parts of town are unkempt and trashy.  The only parks that are "pristine" and maintained are two in Ortega that were privately financed.  The city doesn't keep up with anything no matter where it is.

Atlanta Beltline and High Line in NYC are mostly privately financed.  Jax philanthropists put all of their eggs in the charity basket but forget about some of the city amenities they can also fix up with their donations and efforts.  Atlanta's great parks are also mostly privately financed, some even having their own endowments.  I can say the same thing about Golden Gate Park here in SF, as well as the refurbishments of several other city parks (Lafayette, Dolores, Joe Dimaggio).

Jax has its own examples (Stockton Park and Baker Point are the realization of financial generosity and vision from several neighbors of these parks in the Ortega area, and look, they are the best maintained parks in the city).  I think the original riverwalk came about through the sale of bricks and not necessarily through city coffers...someone can correct me there if I'm wrong.

http://blogs.miaminewtimes.com/riptide/2014/05/miami_heat_and_mayor_reach_new.php

City of Miami gets Heat to donate 1 million every year to city parks department.....

This is an old thread but it seemed relevant to include this here.

Swisher is donating half a million dollars towards developing the S-Line trail as part of the broader Emerald Trail program.

https://swisher.com/swisher-pledges-to-donate-1-million-for-community-causes-in-2023-2/

Nice.  Who else thinks "Swisher Stadium" would sound cool, while they're at it.  Permanent name, maybe. 

If the city is going to continue with the U2C boondoggle, seems like it would make more sense to run it along the S-line as opposed to downtown streets where it will be surrounded by impatient drivers/pedestrians.

^It's still a good corridor to connect transit from downtown to the Gateway area. Unfortunately, I don't think its been really looked at for such a use since 2008 or so.

Would they still be able to keep the trail if rail was added?

You'd have to rip the trail up and rebuild it. Years ago, we tried to get them to build the trail on one side of the corridor, instead of the center, for this very reason. Obviously, that failed.

I think with the Emerald Trail, any other use of the S -line has "sailed" (railed?  ;D). 

Need to look elsewhere for transit paths... I would think there are plenty of good options, but.... we don't have any leaders interested in real transit solutions so no need to lose sleep over taking the S-line off the table.

A rail stop in Phoenix and Myrtle Ave would be transformative. What a pity.

A trail shouldn't stop transit from being built. Atlanta wants to build rail along the Beltline. If you don't want a train to be at grade with the trail, elevate it and do something like the Miami Underline. It's absolutely possible to utilize this corridor for both a trail and train.

The only reason to not do rail + trail is a lack of political will to do it. There's not a physical limitation on that line, at least as long as we don't build more things in the way.

Charlotte is a great example of a city that went rail + trail:

(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Charlotte-November-2019/i-6LkVJGk/0/daea6402/L/20191109_114334-L.jpg)

(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Charlotte-November-2019/i-xTNpDgq/0/4111768f/L/20191109_142309-L.jpg)

(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Charlotte-November-2019/i-PWKg3b8/0/2d0ff361/L/20191109_141945-L.jpg)

(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Charlotte-November-2019/i-29f9dDD/0/e5182488/L/20191109_140737-L.jpg)

Miami just broke ground on the final phase of the Underline. I haven't seen updated numbers on the cost, but a few years ago it was around $100 million for the full 10 miles.

QuoteA groundbreaking ceremony was held this morning for the third and final phase of The Underline.

Ken Griffin, the billionaire founder and CEO of Citadel, was scheduled to be in attendance. Griffin donated $5 million towards the project in 2021.

Phase 1 of the Underline is already complete. Phase 2 broke ground in 2021, and is scheduled for completion this year.

Phase 3 is the longest portion yet, running 7.36 miles to the Dadeland South Metrorail station Kiss and Ride Facility.

Features of Phase 3 will include numerous bioswales, green infrastructure, and below ground drainage that will help with stormwater flooding and runoff.

Source: The Next Miami (https://www.thenextmiami.com/groundbreaking-held-for-final-phase-of-the-underline-attended-by-ken-griffin/)

S-Line would be perfect for something like this.

^ the latest estimate is $120 million - but they have also proposed several overpasses that are not included in that cost