Metro Jacksonville

NOTICE: FOR THE BENEFIT OF CONSTRUCTIVE THOUGHT THIS THREAD WILL PLAY BY THE SAME RULES WE USED IN PART 1

QuoteOkay, here is the "OFFICIAL SKYWAY EXPANSION THREAD" It's here for you to vote and comment on, and I've set it up for Skyway supporters only.[/b]

Anti Skyway tirades will be deleted.
(REASON FOR DELETING? Because we want to know your opinion on positive ideas and concepts for the little railway)

This is not to say we can't have a healthy give and take on the positive aspects of this thread, IE:  "I like this idea more because..." or "I completely disagree with that plan or concept because..."

I'm also going to bend a bit and allow re-posting of pertinent posts from the past, if you think you've got a post or drawing/map/or diagram that qualifies lets dig it our and try it on our fresh audience.

Have fun and let's do the work for them! And remember Uncle Ock is watching, so don't try and spoil the party.

How many knew the Jacksonville Jaguars packed in 498,655 fans over the last season, the Jacksonville Suns and other baseball games (94 days total) 375,401 the Gator Bowl another 61,312 and the Arena another 99,024 at 15 events. A grand total of 1,034,392 people visited the stadium district, and this number is without consideration to the "promised public pier," Metropolitan Park, Police Station, Jail, Berkman Tower, urban residential, Wells Fargo and other major buildings, Amphitheater, or the neighborhoods of East Jacksonville. It has actually been said that JTA didn't act on expansion before the Super Bowl because, "It would be too successful and the trains would break down under the crush load." Interesting as this would be a WONDERFUL PROBLEM TO HAVE. The answer of course is do what only trains can do... you add cars, oh, and don't worry the stations are designed for trains of 6 cars.

So what does all of this mean? Well with approximately 117 "activity days" in the stadium district, this Skyway extension would be far from empty. 1,034,392 people. Now consider that the JTA Jaguar Game shuttles which have steadily been losing popularity ridership has declined to 9.9% of those attending the games for a total of about 49,652 annual riders (2009 numbers). So a Skyway to the stadium area should be busy 32.5% of the year, with an additional 101,370 'new' riders annually, without regards to fixed transit attracting more riders, up to 155% more in some cases. What about a 33.3% increase? Okay, that's totally speculation but ridership could hit as much as 135,126 passengers a year just for our special events.

Granted that the Skyway would still be short of the 65,000 daily passengers, 35,000 daily passengers, 20,000 daily passengers, 10,000 daily passengers we were promised at one time. At the current rate of daily use, the Skyway should hit 979,011M/L by the end of the year. Toss in our hypothetical 135,126 and you'd come out with 1,114,137 pushing the little rail line over the million mark.

Here are the results of the previous poll:

Make trains and stations more attractive, expand to wrap advertising, lease out station space, longer hours, longer trains 0 votes (0%)
All of Option One, Plus Expansion the line to San Marco, FEC RY at Atlantic (you know it was very close to the old South Jacksonville train station site) 7 votes (10%)
All of Option 1, plus EXPAND to the Stadium District with new stations at BOA Tower, Convention Center/Hyatt, A. P. Randolph, Everbank Field 40 votes (57.1%)
All of Option One, Plus Expansion to Riverside at Blue Cross or Annie Lytle 10 votes (14.3%)
A combination of any two of the above, please explain
13 votes  (18.6%)

Let's get to work on this monorail, it's way past due.

OCKLAWAHA

Personally the next leg should go to BCBS/ Brooklyn/ Annie Lytle with trolley or street car to 5points.  Increased use and riders , goes to a thriving district. Makes use of an endangered historic Landmark.    Win Win Win

I'd like to see it come up Riverside ave, under the interstate then jog over to May Steeet and have a station at Oak and Lomax.  May street has pretty much all of it's historic fabric removed so the skyway tracks wouldn't detract from thearea as much as it would from other streets, and could help spur growth in that area.

I voted YES, but with several caveats

1. There are better extensions needed FIRST (such as San Marco and Brooklyn/Riverside Av)
2. We REALLY need to decide if the skyway is the best transit mode to go to the stadium....why not streetcar?

If it is to be expanded I vote for this order:

1. San Marco
2. Brooklyn
3. Stadium

I'm with tufsu, I think there might be better mode options for the stadium.

I also voted yes, with similar caveats. I believe a stadium district expansion would be successful; I don't know that it would be the most successful of all the possibilities. Additionally, it might be more difficult to fund than other routes, or other modes taking an equivalent route.

However, I would add to the argument something I've said elsewhere: a skyway expansion to the sports complex would allow the courthouses to use that free parking for jurors during weekdays, and bring them in by skyway. Currently they're already having jurors park there and the JTA is shuttling them to the (current) courthouse apparently at their own expense. The courthouse is now having to seek other solutions; this would be one and would also immediately add hundreds of new weekly skyway riders. Other entities could potentially do the same thing.

This was one of the motivations for the original skyway plan going through the sports complex before it was axed by the Feds.

I voted yes but I would like to see the priorities be
1. Amtrak Downtown
2. Riverside Streetcar from King and College to Downtown via 5 points.
3. Skyway expansion A. Brooklyn B. San Marco
4. Amtrak set as a quasi commuter rail with stops at St. Augustine, Avenues, FEC park and Jax Terminal (Prime Osborn).
5. Utilize the S line as commuter rail in to Springfield and a bit North.
6. Skyway to stadium
7. Commuter rail service on CSX A line Palatka, Green Cove Springs, Flemming Island, St. John's country day, Wells, NAS, San Jaun, Edgewood/FSCJ, King and Jax Terminal (Prime Osborn). At this point extend Riverside streetcar to the commuter platform at King.


However I can get onboard with Skyway to the stadium as a good show piece and easier to sell to the general pop than other lines.

I'd have a few caveats as well.  No corridor or mode in this city should be looked at in a vacuum.

1. As tufsu1 has stated, I'm not sold it (this particular transit mode) "has" to be expanded to the stadium area.  With further study from a comprehensive level, something like streetcar or LRT may be more logical.

2. The stadium is just like the Prime Osborn.  It's going to sit empty most of the year.  It's not going to get a dime of state or federal money, so residents are going to tax themselves extra to pay for 100% of the costs.  Thus, anything that is expanded in the direction of the stadium needs to connect more than just the stadium.  It probably needs to penetrate an adjacent neighborhood with decent density and a high population of transit dependent residents, like the Eastside as well.  That will give you everyday ridership plus put something in place for special events.

Quote from: tufsu1 on February 14, 2012, 07:52:46 AM
I voted YES, but with several caveats

1. There are better extensions needed FIRST (such as San Marco and Brooklyn/Riverside Av)
2. We REALLY need to decide if the skyway is the best transit mode to go to the stadium....why not streetcar?

I agree TUFSU1, my whole premise being that the stadium district/Eastside line may not be the amazing failure predicted in several conversations on MJ.

That San Marco at Atlantic/FEC RY, WEST OF THE TRACKS is without a doubt the number one 'need'. Thinking population clusters, that Skyway line would finally bridge the FEC tracks, this is important as there really is no reliable, anytime access to anything between the areas bounded by Philips Highway, University, St. Johns River, FEC RY. This route would prove to be a modest success bringing a totally new demographic to the Skyway system. Elevated OVER the FEC RY the Skyway Atlantic station could be designed with a across-the-platform connection to both bus and the Commuter Rail.

People who made that change from train to Skyway would need to transfer a second time to access anything east of Hogan if we operated a bus rather then a monorail. after they cross the river just to get to the east side. A goal of a single transfer to most anywhere downtown should be written in stone. That transfer should be train to Skyway.

The stadium line is important to the success of the whole system as it offers all of the residents within the district outlined above access to the ENTIRE downtown as opposed to everything west of Hogan. The soft numbers illustrate that the cars would be packed with people at least 117 times a year. The balance of the year, the east side of downtown, offices, apartments, condos and the AP Randolph neighborhood north of the Arlington Expressway, should generate a fairly constant system flow on nonevent days.

I think the east side/stadium route is superior to streetcar in any case but private right-of-way. So a REAL trolley without exclusive right-of-way would be just as stuck in stadium traffic as a shuttle bus. In these hard to access (without enduring a demolition rally on the crowded road) the monorail would do what monorails and El's do everywhere... fly above the roads.

Riverside is pretty easy, all they need to get started is to build a station at the maintenance facility, but I'm not optimistic that it would generate any traffic until we get infill in the Brooklyn neighborhood. Infill in the devastated sea of foundations would likely follow the Skyway. If we toss in the BCBS/Everbank/Fidelity offices then the Skyway route to Brooklyn and hopefully the Annie Lytle transit hub it would be a smashing success.

OCKLAWAHA

1. If the mode connecting the stadium were streetcar, LRT, or whatever, one could make a single transfer at the JRTC as well. 

2. As for ROW, downtown's streets are between 80'-70' wide.  That's plenty of space to accommodate fixed transit at grade on it's own dedicated ROW and cars/bikes in their own lanes.  We just have to be willing to commit to not treating the automobile as the highest mobility priority in the urban core.

3. In regards to Riverside Avenue, I still believe a streetcar could serve this area alone, which would then free up money that would be used to extend the skyway in the same area, to be used getting the skyway to another destination like Atlantic Boulevard, Shands, or the farmer's market.

All in all, extending the skyway to a variety of destinations makes sense.  However, when dealing with a limited financial pot, its best to balance it with other modes to a point where we can get more connectivity and utilization out of the same limited financial pot.

Does anybody have a rough estimate of the cost of continuing the Skyway from Central Station to JUST the old courthouse?  (Thinking about the future convention center location) 

The mobility plan estimated extending the skyway would run around $35 million per mile.  Thus:

$14 million - 0.40 mile extension to Market Street from Hogan Street (current courthouse site)

$35 million - 1.00 mile extension to A. Philip Randolph from Hogan (Arena/Baseball Grounds)

$46.6 million - 1.33 mile extension to Metropolitan Park/Everbank Field

By comparison, a streetcar would run you around $14 to $15 million per mile.  If you went with a heritage streetcar, that number would probably drop to $10 million per mile or less.

Quote from: thelakelander on February 24, 2012, 09:07:04 AM
The mobility plan estimated extending the skyway would run around $35 million per mile.  Thus:

$14 million - 0.40 mile extension to Market Street from Hogan Street (current courthouse site)

$35 million - 1.00 mile extension to A. Philip Randolph from Hogan (Arena/Baseball Grounds)

$46.6 million - 1.33 mile extension to Metropolitan Park/Everbank Field

By comparison, a streetcar would run you around $14 to $15 million per mile.  If you went with a heritage streetcar, that number would probably drop to $10 million per mile or less.

So the heritage or a normal streetcar would be the best option for the naysayers and the aye-sayers in resolving this transit issue for Jacksonville. By giving the streetcar an opportunity to work without blowing the money out of the water, we can see if the streetcar can prove itself to be effective method of public transit. This would slowly help transform the naysayers into aye-sayers before spending more money on the Skyway or other higher cost, but higher quality transit.

-Josh

My personal opinion is that given the budget constraints of this community, it makes more sense to build anything to the stadium as a part of the streetcar network. 

For example, with $46.6 million, you could expand the skyway from Hogan to Everbank Field.  For that same figure, you could construct a heritage streetcar line from Everbank Field to St. Vincent's Medical Center in Riverside.  Tell me which one gets you more bang for your buck?  In essence, that sets the streetcar up as a complementing east/west line to the skyway, which begins to resemble more of a north/south route.

Anyway you spin it, the lower cost/mile allows you to stretch fixed transit to serve four times the area, people, and destinations.  A complete no-brainer to me. 

Quote from: cline on February 14, 2012, 08:38:15 AM
If it is to be expanded I vote for this order:

1. San Marco
2. Brooklyn
3. Stadium

I'm with tufsu, I think there might be better mode options for the stadium.

From an operational standpoint a skyway extension east along Bay Street might make sense, but I wouldn't go as far as the stadium.  What we have today is two legs at one end feeding into one leg at the other end, which creates a bottleneck. 

^Going east, where would you terminate it?

I would end skyway in Arena/Baseball grounds area

and add streetcar going a more northern route down duval st (as northern east/west connector)
hopefully going west all the way to farmers market or through "subway" to stockton/kings

No clue how doable that would be :)

what I'm wondering why isn't there a push a regional rail connections

jax - Fernandina, jax - Gainesville, jax - St Augustine (Daytona)

i think tracks are already there and to me its just too logical not to do it :)

There is a push for regional rail.  The project that appears to be on its way in the short term is the Amtrak/FEC Flagler Line.  It will connect Jacksonville with Miami, along Florida's East Coast.  St. Augustine will be one of the stops.  This could happen as soon as 2014/15.

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/818493650_2kvxk-600x10000.jpg)

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2012-jan-amtrak-flagler-line-will-happen

http://m.tcpalm.com/news/2012/jan/05/amtrak-liability-protection-needed-before-could/

Commuter rail is also in the long term works locally.  Nassau County would be the terminating stop along the north corridor.  However, this is still a decade away.

(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-5959-jta-final-station03.png)

http://www.jtafla.com/JTAfutureplans/Rail/

just sucks that is all moving so slow.
my thought is that connecting all urban areas 1 1/2 to 2 hours train ride with jax would help
with getting funding for all projects downtown for which new infrastructure needs to be built,
and will show the need for those.
(well need it there anyway but i guess some people just need more reasons)

back to skyway :)

being that skyway is more expensive and current layout doesn't really give us opportunity to build looping lines
like miami has , having skyway as southern east west connector and streetcar as northern (central) east west connector would give us huge flexibility of moving from one area to another

Yes to streetcar (imagine if we started there from the beginning)...

But regarding the convention center location next door to the Hyatt (it sounds pretty much a foregone conclusion to me)...would you not be unhappy as a Southbank  hotel owner (heck even the Omni) if you now become disconnected from a new, possibly successful, busy, convention center since the Skyway stubs at Central Station? 

Streetcar is a better east-west solution than skyway expansion to the sports complex (or new convention center) IMO.  If you are at a Southbank hotel then you're most likely going to have to change trains regardless because you just came across the river on the north-south line.  So why not ride the escalator down and hop on a streetcar?  With signaling priority, the streetcars can move through downtown with very little delay.

But, sometimes I think we forgot that the point of these systems is not necessarily to get around FASTER than a car, but to make it possible to get around WITHOUT a car.

Bingo!  I think these quotes from an article tufsu1 posted about Norfolk's new LRT sums up what fixed transit connectivity will do for downtown and the surrounding neighborhoods.

QuoteThe boon has continued. Sales at her store for December and January, which are usually slower months, have jumped 13 percent to 14 percent from a year earlier. Riley estimates that light rail has added as much as $1,000 in sales on some days, particularly at the end of the week, when people ride The Tide to restaurants and bars downtown to start their weekend.

Quote"For the most part, it has brought a new awareness to downtown and to businesses that were relying solely on their own foot traffic," said Metzger, whose cafe sits closer to the tracks than any other business, with windows overlooking the MacArthur Square station.

Sales at her shop are up about 20 percent, on average, in the six months of light-rail operation, Metzger said.

Quote"The walking pattern has changed dramatically because of the train," Metzger said.

Eastern Virginia Medical School students have become new Bean There customers, she said. No longer worried about needing time to find a downtown parking space, they take light rail to get a quick coffee during class or hospital breaks.

QuoteThe biggest benefit of The Tide for Brick House is the commuting option for the staff, Routsis said. Three of his workers who live in Virginia Beach park at the Newtown Road station and ride to work most days. That saves him $80 per month in parking fees per worker.

QuoteFrom the Civic Plaza station, riders looking across St. Paul's Boulevard can't miss the "Breakfast-Lunch" and "Gyros-Burgers" signs above the windows of Brick House Diner.

"For us, it's perfect, because they get off the stop and they see us," said John Routsis, who co-owns the diner with his brother, Bill. "People know where we're at now."

QuoteMacArthur Center's (a shopping mall) parking office faces the station across City Hall Avenue. Staff members have watched a stream of Tide riders head to the mall from the train and, sometimes, return to the tracks later with shopping bags, said Jim Wofford, the mall's general manager.

That might not represent a gain, he acknowledged, if some MacArthur Center customers who used to drive and park are now taking light rail instead.

Nonetheless, Wofford believes that The Tide has brought bonus traffic to the mall, encouraging shoppers who otherwise might go elsewhere.

During the holidays, "when the parking spaces were at a premium," he said, "we had a lot of folks that actually rode in on light rail."

QuoteAt the Newtown stop, though, the 7-Eleven has become an oasis. Riley has added inventory since August to meet the demand, in particular for bottled water, Gator-ade, iced tea, beer and wine.

Sales of hot food have grown to $245 daily from $60 to $75 before light rail. No food or drink is allowed on trains, but customers often have time to wait at the end of the line.

full article: http://hamptonroads.com/2012/02/some-stores-near-norfolk-light-rail-stations-see-boost

Quote from: thelakelander on February 24, 2012, 10:35:37 AM
^Going east, where would you terminate it?

Market Street or Liberty Street would work for me.

From there to the stadium you could have a streetcar.

^ a streetcar that is less than 1 mile long seems like a waste to me...so you need to extend it west and/or north

Interesting, I still think a streetcar down Water/independence to Newnan and hence north to Beaver, east on Beaver to AP Randolph, to Duval, and back to Newnan would work best. Why? Because at the hypothetical intersection of Beaver Street and the former F&J rail line from Springfield to Maxwell House, we have a perfect right-of-way, and a straight off the street shot north through Springfield to Norwood Plaza. Once you achieve that, then the balance of the 'S' line could be restored with streetcar by day, freight by night, it would help pay the light bill.

OCK

Quote from: tufsu1 on February 24, 2012, 10:44:39 PM
^ a streetcar that is less than 1 mile long seems like a waste to me...so you need to extend it west and/or north

Maybe we're not talking about the same kind of streetcar.  I'm thinking of a heritage type streetcar that would operate at a low speed with frequent stops, like Memphis.

Not really different Dan, just being creative with our 'heritage cars' would blow the socks off of the slow, middle of the street, stops at every corner streetcars. The way I see it, using Bay for the Streetcars is a disaster in the making. Not that streetcar couldn't serve the stadiums with a line every bit as good as the Skyway, but using Bay would set back a shot at the private right-of-way from Beaver to Springfield and Norwood, for a long, time. Grabbing Newnan as the north-south route, then east on the Beaver Street alignment (alignment because Beaver doesn't cross Hogans Creek) to A.P.Randolph.

We would still have a chance to lead the country IF we went with heritage equipment some of which could possibly be the lightweight, high speed interurban cars. These cars are really no different then the traditional streetcar, but they have the ability to break 100 mph if given a chance.  Remember too that electric transit vehicles accelerates much faster then a bus, truck and most cars. Here's a photo of one such streetcar, and the article that says it all.


So while I am talking heritage streetcar, but heritage streetcar thoroughbreds. I'm not suggesting that we could run these cars at 100 mph, rather as they leave the streets and assume their private right of way they should be able to smoke any bus JTA has on a similar route.

Track structure plays a HUGE ROLE in all forms of rail. Light-Rail really does use 'lighter rail' which is measured by pounds per yard. Normal CSX/FEC/NS rail generally runs from 132-156 pounds per yard, the rail on the famous Cincinnati and Lake Erie was mostly 75 pound. Lighter rail equals lighter construction costs. Most modern systems are using 90-110 pound rail. We would want to use at least 110 pound on the 'S' Belt Line as it is likely to have freight trains running over it, but the rest of the system could be much lighter.

For those who have just joined us, streetcars are a type of light rail, though the term light-rail generally means an reincarnation of the historic interurban railways. CSX, FEC, NS, Amtrak or commuter rail ARE NOT light rail. An important thing to remember is a 1911 model vintage streetcar, modern light rail car, and a electric bullet train are not only related, they are similar under the hood.

One more bit of information, IF we build a track system good enough for light rails heavier cars, that track should extend down the Newnan-Beaver-Randolph-Duval-Newnan-Independence/Water street sections, anything else could be built to lighter streetcar standards. This would hold down costs in places like Riverside, Avondale, and Springfield, while allowing for some future upgrade running the 'S' - Water/Independence - Newnan - Beaver - (pvt track) to Springfield, Norwood, and returning via the 'S' through Durkeeville.

For my last thought on the Skyway to San Marco, try to think in terms of flowing lines, in this case a sort of table fork shape. The handle or main trunk of the Skyway would be the line on the Southbank, but for smooth seamless distribution of passengers, it needs to connect to the primary work/live/play centers on the Northbank. Such a system would at least cover routes into north-east-and west parts of downtown. There would be no transfers or change of cars if the Southbank line ended somewhere in the east side, and the Rosa Parks route ended at Jacksonville Terminal.

It's the whole 'access to the north side' that accounts for all of my reason to give Bay to the Skyway, now or later, but stake a claim on Beaver for the streetcars.


OCKLAWAHA

Using Bay wouldn't eliminate the possibility of using the old F&J line.  I'd argue that it make the concept of the F&J much better than Beaver would.  All you would need to do is install track on Marsh Street (next to Maxwell House).  Such a move could also open up the possibility to Maxwell House becoming a rail client once again. 

Everytime I see one of Ock's nostalgic black & white transportation pics, some old 1900 era ragtime music automatically pops in my head. :)

Right outside Philadelphia I rode on the Brill Bullet cars once or twice in the early Seventies.  No time for pix but here's a description.

Now known as SEPTA's Route 100 Norristown High Speed Line, the Philadelphia and Western was built in 1906 from Upper Darby to Strafford. The branch to Norristown, which includes the long truss bridge over the Schuylkill River, was completed in 1912. The entire line is grade separated, with an energized third rail providing the power. A portion of the original line, from Villanova to Strafford, was abandoned in 1956. That leaves the thirteen-mile long Upper Darby to Norristown segment active, with a new branch to the malls at King of Prussia currently under preliminary study.

All-aluminum Bullet cars were the mainstay of this line from 1931 until almost 1990. These excellent, high-speed trolleys were the first rail cars designed in a wind tunnel. Scale models were tested at the University of Michigan. Imagine the early airplanes and dirigible airships that were also being designed at that time. Not only were these cars the latest in style, they made use of state of the art technology. They were capable of speed approaching 100 mph, and saw 80 mph regularly. That they lasted sixty years is a tribute to the soundness of the design, and the quality of their Brill construction. (The J.G. Brill company, with its sprawling plant in southwest Philadelphia, was the largest trolley manufacturer in the world.)

But you don't need anything like that on Bay Street.