A look at Oakleaf Town Center
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-3227-p1060187.JPG)
Although a few major big box stores have already opened, Oakleaf Town Center is not scheduled to be fully operational unil April 2008.
Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/676
Where is the closest movie theater? Which bus stops here?
The nearest theatre would be the AMC 24 at the OP Mall.
I went to the OLTC for the first time this past weekend. It is a perfect development for the area and should be a great addition for the people of Oak Leaf and Argyle. It is pretty standard stores for a development of this size but anything that keeps people from driving on Blanding Blvd is a plus. And is this the first Panda Express in Jax?
I think there is a Panda Express in the area malls.
This is a smart development for this community. OakLeaf is a master-planned community done by the Hutson company. It has a total of about 3,000 to 4,000 households comprised of single-family homes, condos and townhomes. Most of the residents have lived there within the past 3 years and have waited for this development to be completed. The community isn't close to being completely built-out and has plans for more homes and business development in the "better-housing-market" future.
This master-planned community is remniscient of the Nocatee, Julington Creek, Fleming Island Plantation and Bartram Park developments. Each one of these have, or will have, "town centers" as well as homes and condos. Some may call it urban sprawl others may call progress. They have an advantage over downtown Jacksonville in that they all started with trees and were built during the housing boom. They just needed someone with a checkbook and a little vision.
As one who lives exactly one mile from the Oakleaf TownCenter, I can say it has been a nice addition. It is pleasant to be able to do some shopping and dining without going to Blanding and Wells Rd. I often walk down there, although I don't think many people do. I will say that they should have widened Argyle from 4 to 6 lanes from Old Middleburg to SR 23. I don't think it will take long before traffic on that stretch becomes unbareable.
How's the Starbucks there? Did you buy the new coffee at Starbucks? It's 24.00 a lb! Dian said it's our 1st effort to move up market! The box must be a huge part of that cost. It's designer in nature.
I agree with keeping as many people as possible off of Blanding. That place is a mad-house and I truly have no idea how anyone can live down there and not try and slit their wrists every waking hour.
While I don't agree with the urban-sprawl mentality and I don't think there's much, if any, creativity in these cookie-cutter town-centers (btw, there's one or more of these in every city in America now including Murfreesboro, TN), it would be a welcome answer to all the traffic issues to actually be able to create a work-live-play environment. And who knows, maybe each of these "towns" can split from Jacksonville entirely and have their own city and city council. Now, THAT would be interesting.
Quote from: second_pancake on December 31, 2007, 11:01:57 AM
And who knows, maybe each of these "towns" can split from Jacksonville entirely and have their own city and city council. Now, THAT would be interesting.
Sounds expensive but I'm listening. Let's see, we'd have at least 7 new municipalities? How would you pay for all that?
I don't think these strip shopping centers will ever become actual urban cores. The suburban layout of the surrounding areas, the big box components and surface parking lots kill any true chance of them forming enough compact connectivity without tearing them down and completely rebuilding them. Nevertheless, they are still an improvement from their suburban counterparts developed a few decades ago.
I'm thinking the one good thing developments do is relieve congestion which is an activity that is truly needed. :)
In the short term. Depending on how growth is regulated in the future, it could become a larger negative by bringing Blanding type congestion to the Oakleaf area.
So sprawl isn't so much growth as it is cancer in Jacksonville?
At this point, most of the sprawl locally is still a cancer because we haven't successfully developed the infrastructure to support it or changed the zoning to heavily regulate it. However, we aren't alone in our struggles for good growth management. Most US metropolitan areas are in the same boat.
If it wasn't for sprawl we would have never left the garden of eve; however, with all that sinning going on you can't blame us. How do you develop the infrastructure to support the sprawl given the taxpayers don't want what's needed to facilitated. They don't want busses, BRT, LRT or increased fuel prices. They probably just want more bowling alleys.
No building in areas that can't support it would be a good place to start. Impact fees would be another thing that could help expand infrastructure. We're one of the few places in Florida that does not have impact fees.
Oh, like that license plate thingamabobby few years back. I completely support taxing new residences. After all they should pay for our lack of planning right?
They (and existing residents who choose to move to remote spots) should pay if they want to live in areas that can't support additional development.
As far as OakLeaf splitting into its own 'jurisdiction', there has been plenty of talk in that direction. The residents of OakLeaf have contemplated breaking away from the city of Orange Park and creating their own government. They are not happy with the city of Orange Park's handling of traffic, schools, etc. And OakLeaf will have a complete school system, i.e. K-12, very shortly. If I'm not mistaken they already have a K-8 school. It will be interesting to see how this plays out in 2-3 years.
Can residents do that?
I don't think Oakleaf was ever a part of the City of Orange Park. The City of Orange Park's boundaries are east of Blanding.
Quote from: thelakelander on January 01, 2008, 04:34:04 PM
They (and existing residents who choose to move to remote spots) should pay if they want to live in areas that can't support additional development.
Or...they should be self-sufficient! Amen! But, that of course, would mean the federal government getting involved as it is against the law for a person to set up a permanent dwelling where there is no underground sewer or wastewater system.
QuoteOr...they should be self-sufficient! Amen! But, that of course, would mean the federal government getting involved as it is against the law for a person to set up a permanent dwelling where there is no underground sewer or wastewater system.
The developers who are building the new developments should be funding infrastructure upgrades to reach their property, as well as putting money into a pot to support future school and road expansions that will be needed from continued growth in their immediate area. Ideally, if this is done, the new residents will pay their fair share because the developers will just pass the costs down to them in the sale of their new homes.
Yeah, lake, but that would mean the developers would now have long-term responsibility, and who wants that when you can just destroy, build, and bolt?
If the City and community really wants to better manage the growth, then somethings that aren't popular with the development community will have to be put in place.
Do things that aren't popular with the development community? Isn't the city council president Daniel Davis also the Director of the Northeast Florida Builders Association?
In most places this would be considered a conflict of interest, but in Jacksonville it is an honorable addition to your resume for city council.
QuoteDaniel is the Director of the Northeast Florida Builders Association (NEFBA), representing the building and construction industry in Duval, Clay, St. Johns and Nassau counties on state-wide issues.
http://www.coj.net/City+Council/District+12/default.htm
Quote from: thelakelander on January 02, 2008, 04:08:21 PM
QuoteOr...they should be self-sufficient! Amen! But, that of course, would mean the federal government getting involved as it is against the law for a person to set up a permanent dwelling where there is no underground sewer or wastewater system.
The developers who are building the new developments should be funding infrastructure upgrades to reach their property, as well as putting money into a pot to support future school and road expansions that will be needed from continued growth in their immediate area. Ideally, if this is done, the new residents will pay their fair share because the developers will just pass the costs down to them in the sale of their new homes.
its called concurrency....and believe it or not, its the law in Florida
Yes, I'm familiar with concurrency, we deal with it on a daily basis on many of the projects in the office. However, since many of the new developments still end up costing the community more than what they bring in, the current system is a failure. I don't know the what the final solution should be, but whether its upping fees, restricting development in certain areas, improving mass transit or increasing the density in places with adaquate infrastructure, something new needs to be done.
one of the biggest misconceptions about concurrency is that development doesn't pay its fair share....in fact, large developments in many parts of the state pay more than their fair share....its many of the small projects that get by without having to pay at all.
also important to note is that cities have set up concurrency exception areas to encourage infill development....Jacksonville has done this downtown.
Quotein fact, large developments in many parts of the state pay more than their fair share....its many of the small projects that get by without having to pay at all.
True. Unfortunately, when its all added up, there are several more smaller developments going up statewide, in areas with limited to no capacity to support them, then the large developments. As you already know, this has resulted in some municipalities and counties having impact fees, in addition to concurrency.
Quotealso important to note is that cities have set up concurrency exception areas to encourage infill development....Jacksonville has done this downtown.
In some cities (I can't think of any in Florida), they have set up tax abatement programs to encourage infill development in older areas with infrastructure already in place as well, with great success.
It would be nice to have this downtown concurrency exception extended to the inner core neighborhoods also, especially in the Northside. At one point, most of these areas had three times as much density, so a vast amount of infill could happen fairly easily because the infrastructure is already in place.
Quote from: thelakelander on January 03, 2008, 08:25:26 AM
True. Unfortunately, when its all added up, there are several more smaller developments going up statewide, in areas with limited to no capacity to support them, then the large developments. As you already know, this has resulted in some municipalities and counties having impact fees, in addition to concurrency.
Impacte fees pay for long-term future issues...concurrency deals with existing issues
But they both go hand in hand in planning.
Or bad planning lake. I live in a tax supported TOD. I love it here. I think the domain will make it; however, the city gave millions and the state gave millions to do this project to my betterment. In long run is it the best thing? I guess if you want super fast growth it's the only way sometimes.
Is there a commuter rail station located at the Domain?
Capital Metro still hasn't finalized all the locations for the Red Line, the first train going on line. I was told that the commuter rail will stop here at the domain. The press is saying the Red Line station will be located behind IBM and Tivoli building. That there will be shuttle busses running between the domain and that station. It's .75 miles to where I think the stations is going to be. I saw a truck out there the other day doing some scouting I guess. It's a done deal for the Red Line station there. In the future there will be other services that do stop at the domain I'm sure. The freight rail line runs right thru the domain basically...it's got to be a no brainier to stop the other lines right here.
I just took a look at Google Earth. The Union Pacific tracks that run through the Domain are planned to serve as apart of a "regional" commuter rail line from Austin to San Antonio.
(http://asarail.org/images/map-service-area.jpg)
you can learn more about this second rail line here: http://asarail.org/ (http://asarail.org/)
(http://lh3.google.com/ttowkach/R32sq4RqVgI/AAAAAAAAACk/uVP4I0vQqlM/s144/dIBM.JPG&imgmax=640)
The image is a little small...but there you go. Notice the Domain is sandwitched between the two line. The line to the right will be the Red Line. Google says that the grey blob is IBM, not true any more, but it's really the Domain. IBM has its new buildings closer to the Red Line.
Here’s my guess at the location of the Red Line Station with shuttles to the Domain. Contractors are out, where I put the 2 black squares on the 2nd. image below, building what could be the transfer location to BRT, feeder buses, and Express buses. Funny, the Pickle center is right next door. Remember from an earlier post, the Pickle is putting in a Hydrogen Fuel stations and that's where CapitalMetro will fill it Hydrogen Powered Busses. You can see that straight shot to the location behind the IBM buildings where the media said the station was going. It would be a short walk to mall, basically crossing over the lot. They may even bring the shuttle right to the Domain itself. I could see dillos, or shuttles, running down Centry Oaks Terrace the main drag and to then right to the Red Line station. Can't wait! I would go crazy if the Dillos where Hydrogen powered! That would be Austin to have Hydrogen powered shuttles servicing the Domain.
(http://www.utexas.edu/news/graphics/hydrogen_fuel_cell_bus.jpg)
Developments like OakLeaf Plantation, Julington Creek and Nocatee do incur the costs of the new infrastructure. The city/county creates a 2-part 30-year bond to fund the CDD (Community Development District). The first part of the bond is paid by the developer. The second part of the bond is paid by the residents of the CDD. It is added to their mortgage bill. The total can range from an extra $200 a month to $400 a month for eah resident.
I know this is an old thread, but how has the town center panned out? I hear there are talks of a movie theatre. I have been there a few times and the traffic never seemed that bad. I think it is tucked back far enough from everyone else so that it really only services its neighborhood.
Quote from: tufsu1 on January 03, 2008, 07:57:05 AM
one of the biggest misconceptions about concurrency is that development doesn't pay its fair share....in fact, large developments in many parts of the state pay more than their fair share....its many of the small projects that get by without having to pay at all.
also important to note is that cities have set up concurrency exception areas to encourage infill development....Jacksonville has done this downtown.
please show me that developments like Oakleaf and Nocatee didn't pay for the roads in their developments....and further, that the property and sales taxes from developments like these don't more than offset the infrastructure costs in the long run.
but hey, don't trust me...do some research on the Fiscal Impact Analysis Model (FIAM)....a study initiated by the state DCA to determine if developments pay for themselves.
look up the FIAM...it deals with much more than roads/infrastructure...here's one link
http://www.sfrpc.com/fiam.htm
I plan on bringing up tufsu's claims up to the Planning Director at the next MetroJacksonville meeting and getting his take.
Let's see what he thinks about tufsu's claims that large subdivisions pay more than they cost taxpayers...
Seems like a pretty comprehensive document...
QuoteFIAM estimates the costs and revenues associated with land use decisions and project future budget balances, providing local government decision makers with a better understanding of the financial impacts of land use decisions and development plans. The SFRPC will deliver FIAM and provide technical assistance and training to local governments.
http://www.sfrpc.com/fiam.htm
I could be wrong...but suspect that Bill will agree that larger mixed-use developments (those that qualified as DRIs) paid far more per unit than smaller hodge podge developments.
Unfortunately, the smaller hodge podge developments occur more and happen quicker than large DRIs.
Quote from: tufsu1 on February 09, 2011, 08:47:54 AM
I could be wrong...but suspect that Bill will agree that larger mixed-use developments (those that qualified as DRIs) paid far more per unit than smaller hodge podge developments.
Yeah, better buy a rearview mirror so you don't hit something backpedaling that fast...
What you said was "
one of the biggest misconceptions about concurrency is that developments don't pay for themselves." I wonder what Killingsworth will think of that bit of brilliance? You said what you said. Or did somebody hijack your keyboard and write that under your screename?
Oh and let's not forget, just to place this in context, that the title of this thread in which you wrote that is; "A look at Oakleaf..." so that's the type of development being referred to.
Quote from: stephendare on February 09, 2011, 09:14:36 AM
In any case, that has nothing to do with your claim.
You said that sprawl developments 'pay more than their fair share'.
nope...in my original post I said "large developments"....I also said "in many parts of the state"...I stand by that statement
In the post yesteray, I specifically referred to developments like Oakleaf and Nocatee...both are DRIs.
Quote from: tufsu1 on February 09, 2011, 09:51:23 AM
Quote from: stephendare on February 09, 2011, 09:14:36 AM
In any case, that has nothing to do with your claim.
You said that sprawl developments 'pay more than their fair share'.
nope...in my original post I said "large developments"....I also said "in many parts of the state"...I stand by that statement
In the post yesteray, I specifically referred to developments like Oakleaf and Nocatee...both are DRIs.
So you're saying Nocatee's developers paid more than it cost taxpayers to build the supporting infrastructure?
Just so we're clear...
The Nocatee developers paid for the infrastructure, including that crazy new flyover off US 1...to the tune of $65+ million....now it is likely that they will pass those costs onto the folks who buy land/homes there...but that seems fair to me.
Quote from: tufsu1 on February 09, 2011, 11:37:13 AM
The Nocatee developers paid for the infrastructure, including that crazy new flyover off US 1...to the tune of $65+ million....now it is likely that they will pass those costs onto the folks who buy land/homes there...but that seems fair to me.
You didn't really answer the question.
Quote from: stephendare on February 09, 2011, 12:27:27 PM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on February 09, 2011, 12:13:23 PM
Quote from: tufsu1 on February 09, 2011, 11:37:13 AM
The Nocatee developers paid for the infrastructure, including that crazy new flyover off US 1...to the tune of $65+ million....now it is likely that they will pass those costs onto the folks who buy land/homes there...but that seems fair to me.
You didn't really answer the question.
Um. yeah. So thats what happens with the flyover. What about the rest of the infrastructure?
yes...they paid for the infrastructure, not the taxpayuers....that includes the sewer, stormwater, and roads...plus they donated lands for parks and schools.
and as development comes online there, contributions to property, sales, and other taxes will begin...which will more than offset the costs of the public facailities.
Quote from: tufsu1 on February 09, 2011, 01:47:34 PM
Quote from: stephendare on February 09, 2011, 12:27:27 PM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on February 09, 2011, 12:13:23 PM
Quote from: tufsu1 on February 09, 2011, 11:37:13 AM
The Nocatee developers paid for the infrastructure, including that crazy new flyover off US 1...to the tune of $65+ million....now it is likely that they will pass those costs onto the folks who buy land/homes there...but that seems fair to me.
You didn't really answer the question.
Um. yeah. So thats what happens with the flyover. What about the rest of the infrastructure?
yes...they paid for the infrastructure, not the taxpayuers....that includes the sewer, stormwater, and roads...plus they donated lands for parks and schools.
and as development comes online there, contributions to property, sales, and other taxes will begin...which will more than offset the costs of the public facailities.
So they donated land. Did they pay to build the schools? Firehouses? The parks? Pay to operate them?
If anyone had a few hundred acres one wanted to develop (and in this case,wrestled away from the Trust for Public Lands) most would 'donate' a portion too.
Oakleaf Town Center: "ANYWHERE"
Can you share what the city planning director said?
Well I was asking you Stephen. You're the one bringing up the city planning director but you won't post what he said. So please, enlighten everyone.
Obsessed with you? Don't flatter yourself stephen. You post in practically every single thread.
Oakleaf is part of a Community Development District (CDD). This is from their website:
http://oakleafresidents.com/faq.htm (http://oakleafresidents.com/faq.htm)
QuoteCDD: Community Development District
The CDD is a form of local government created by the Florida State Legislature which has very specific, yet fewer powers than a city or county. There is a Board of Supervisors that currently meets once a month and the meetings are open to the public. In very general terms the CDD is responsible for what can be termed the common areas of the community, including but not limited to the amenity centers, storm water retention ponds, and parks. Concerns regarding these areas may be directed to the Onsite Community Operations Manager at manager@oakleafresidents.com or (904)406-2206, X2.
While it appears that they do cover the costs of maintaining some of the local facilities through an assessment, I get the feeling that the negative financial impact comes from the increased usage of infrastructure connecting them to the larger metropolitan area (i.e. more commuters on the road).
With respect to fair share, those payments are calculated based on the cost to improve the road system to an acceptable level of service and have no provisions for the cost of maintenance.
But it ends up being a 'gift' that keeps giving. Once they improve the road system to an acceptable level of service, it promotes more sprawl. I believe that it only ends when we say 'enough' - no more road construction.
Quote from: stephendare on February 09, 2011, 02:46:46 PM
So I guess the City Planning Director either doesnt know what he's talking about, is crazy, or something worse?
none of the above...he was speaking in general terms about suburban development.
btw, also note that the projects I specifically referred to are in St. Johns and Clay counties...both of which have impact fee, which Duval doesn't....that is a big difference,,,add to that the DRI negotiated mitigations, which often are more substantial in the outlying counties....in fact, large developments in Duval aren't even considered DRIs anymore.
again, I've never changed what I said or backpeddaled...you just hear what you want to hear.
(http://kara.allthingsd.com/files/2010/09/backpedal-275x178.jpg)