Quote from: stephendare on November 22, 2011, 02:15:40 PMMaybe they can finally sell the military choppers
LOL, Since when is a Bell Jetranger a "military chopper"??
Quote from: Ralph W on November 22, 2011, 09:38:07 PM
we must be prepared to use whatever method necessary to protect the security of our nation, even if it means practicing, with an attitude, on some of our more recalcitrant citizens.
Wonderful word craft Ralph W.
......and then what?'Practice',apply to ever more 'recalcitrant' Citizens?
What does recalcitrance look like in Avondale/Riverside/Ortega , Flemming Island,Marsh Landing-closets full of weaponry,at the ready for that certain something.
Still not seeing any military helicopters.
Yea,helicopter would instill,induce certain response.Likely few Patriots have thought of.....tanks.
All of this equipment painted with tactical aspects in mind,creating socially constructed norm:BLACK. DARK. not pink,blue.
Black helicopters.Not sky blue.
I see the armored tank employed at the Regency area seems to have a showroom quality,no dents or battle wear.Do we call the Dent Doctor to keep her spiffy? I wonder what the service costs are for the donated tank.....we ain't going to Auto Zone ........
Regency........why of course.What are the statistical chances of employing such equipment to Avondale,Ortega ?
Shift to ultra low gear,batten down the hatches,plow on to a question:How does Jacksonville crime rate per capita compare relative to other city profiles.Are our Law Enforcement cost needs lower,average,higher?
Quote from: stephendare on November 23, 2011, 08:29:20 AM
acme and bt. I wouldnt expect you guys to be able to see them. If I remember correctly, neither of you looked at waterboarding and saw torture either.
Ok, don't know if I ever said anything about waterboarding.... ::)
You still haven't shown me a military helicopter though.
One of these is not like the other:
(http://i.pbase.com/g1/85/668285/2/74041916.CB6rKWOK.jpg)
(http://photos.mycapture.com/JAXF/1096199/32106801E.jpg)
(http://i00.i.aliimg.com/photo/v0/215527230/BELL_206B3_JET_RANGER_HELICOPTER.jpg)
(http://www.boeing.com/rotorcraft/military/ah64d/images/AH-64D_DVD-1098-2_375x300.jpg)
Now yer Talkin'. I see some drool on a couple of SWAT uniforms.
Are we really talking about helicopters?
ROFLCOPTERS!
(http://wjsimpson.com/random/omgmissle.gif)
-Josh
You forgot to bold this part... I did it for you...
QuoteIt has been several years since Jacksonville police had a helicopter equipped with an infrared camera. Instead, the St. Johns County Sheriff's Office has been called to assist in nighttime searches, most recently in April when Lynda Wilkes and her infant son, Jay-Quan Mosley, went missing.
Stephen,
It's not a military helicopter. It's a Bell Jetranger. How does adding an IR camera make it a military helicopter? What's the big deal?
Is this it?
(http://www.wallpapergate.com/phpthumb/cache/2671/Airwolf_1.jpg)
Nah. I think these are more like it:
Bell 407
(http://www.altitudeaviation.com.au/images/Bell407_1.jpg)
LOL, and GM makes military trucks so the police must be using military issue Impalas. Oh yeah I guess I drive a military vehicle too.
You're right Stephen. I'm sure that helicopter has hidden Hellfire missiles and a minigun.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_aircraft
QuoteA police aircraft is an airplane, helicopter, powered paraglider, or blimp used in police operations. They are commonly used for traffic control, ground support, search and rescue, high-speed car pursuits, observation, air patrol and riot control. In major cities in the United States, police helicopters are also used as air transportation for SWAT personnel.
[edit] HistoryThe first police aviation department was established in 1919 in New York City with two airplanes. Fixed wing aircraft have generally been replaced by the more versatile helicopter since the late 1940s. However, airplanes still have their uses in some missions, such as border patrol, as their higher speed and greater operating altitude allows larger areas to be covered.
In 1921, the British airship R33 was able to help the police in traffic control around the Epsom and Ascot horseracing events.[1]
[edit] MissionsPolice helicopters are normally equipped with variants such as night vision, FLIR, infrared, surveillance cameras, radar, special radio systems and engines, loudspeaker systems, tear gas dispensers, searchlights, winches and winch cables, flashing light beacons, police rescue equipment and special seating. Weapons are usually not attached to the aircraft.
Police forces sometimes use military surplus helicopters, such as the Bell UH-1 Huey, but most buy their helicopters directly from major aircraft companies.
The Edgley Optica was a British light aircraft built for observation use and was adopted by the Hampshire Constabulary as as an alternative to helicopters.
Police blimps were used to patrol the skies during the 2004 Republican National Convention and the 1996 Atlanta Olympic Games.
ok Stephen...so JSO bought a new helicopter in 2004 for $2.5 million...how much does the average military-spec helicopter cost?
I am sorry but I have to agree with other guys here that, the miliary copters are so much different from the police helicopters.
Police helicopters are basically a beefed up civilian helicopter. It lacks armors, self-defense missile warning system, auto-Stabilizer, even a sophisticated state of art autopilot technology, and much more.
A JSO helicopter = $2.5 million dollar (bought in 2004).
An US Army-issued military copter AH-64A Apache = $20 million dollars.
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_AH-64_Apache (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_AH-64_Apache)
Whooopie doopie ooopies! Big difference!
-Josh
The JSO did aquire one excess military helicopter some years back. It is a Bell JetRanger as well. An unarmed light observation craft. No JSO vehicle, ground, air, or maritime, is "armed". The only "arms" in the JSO are the small arms and "less lethal" devices that are issued to Officers.
The Bell 407 is a military helicopter like the Olive Garden is Italian... but that is really not the point right? The question is, could the money that goes into it's operation be better spent elsewhere.
I did a little searching, here are the aircraft I found registered to "CITY OF JACKSONVILLE":
I believe these all to be JSO -- note the clever "JP" N-number suffix.
N314JP - Helicopter, Bell 407
N312JP - Helicopter, Bell 206B
N311JP - Helicopter, Bell OH-58A, now theres a military aircraft.. same as a 206 basically.
N315JP - Fixed wing, Piper Aerostar 600, a rather homely looking 6 place twin engine, I think this is for transporting prisoners.
N317JP - Helicopter, Bell 206B
Everything else is for the war on bugs:
N14MS - Fixed wing, this is the mosquito plane, a Cessna Skymaster.
N5386S - Fixed wing, another Cessna Skymaster.
N7511A - Helicopter, Schweizer 269C - mosquito control.
N6143K - Helicopter, Another Schweizer 269C
TLDR: The City of Jacksonville's air force puts many countries' to shame.
I wonder what the annual operating cost of all of this equipment is... for the City and JSO. I would think it is pretty expensive.
That is not to say I am for or against it .
Quote from: stephendare on November 23, 2011, 10:20:48 AMSo as far as you are concerned we should probably buy more of these unarmored, impossible to shoot from, unequipped for any assault purposes whatsoever machines, rather than paying our LEOs or hiring more of them, right?
Because thats the context of what we are talking about.
Interestingly enough that's not what we are talking about. Show me one time I ever said they should buy more aircraft.
I was just pointing on your usual sensationalism of topics you post.
Stephen, and if you haven't noticed, not a single person in this thread agrees with your statement that the JSO operates military helicopters. A OH-58a isn't much more than a Jetranger painted olive drab. When they are transferred out of the federal government they are demilitarized, bringing them back to civilian spec.
Are we defining "military helicopter" as one that is/was armed for an assault type missions or a helicopter that was once owned by the military? The military branches have plenty of unarmed/unarmored transport that falls in the second category in which the design and purpose of the equipement was rescue, cargo transport, medical, surveillance, etc.
Does simply being owned by the military make it "Military"?
It is with some humility at my past transgressions that I must point out that this thread has gotten silly. The real issue here is whether the helicopters are necessary, isn't it? I say they are for the reasons that I posted earlier. Any semblence of research will reveal that almost every medium sized law enforcement agency operates an air wing. There is a reason that Police administrators almost universally invest the money it takes to fly, because it saves lives.
Quote from: stephendare on November 24, 2011, 12:01:46 AM
To which he then posted photos of the newer commercial choppers and tried to portray them as the only helicopters in use, and that my comment was factually wrong.
Which it wasnt, obviously.
Stephen, you do realize that your "military" helicopter is basically the exact same thing as the commercial helicopters posted? In fact I'm sure you couldn't pick it out of a lineup. If you want to tell yourself that the thing is a military helicopter to justify your fearmongering thats fine.
Quote from: NotNow on November 24, 2011, 01:28:12 AM
It is with some humility at my past transgressions that I must point out that this thread has gotten silly. The real issue here is whether the helicopters are necessary, isn't it? I say they are for the reasons that I posted earlier. Any semblence of research will reveal that almost every medium sized law enforcement agency operates an air wing. There is a reason that Police administrators almost universally invest the money it takes to fly, because it saves lives.
Agreed. To say these arent valuable assets to public safety in our city is ludicrous.
FYI for all you complaining, having a city the size of Jacksonville requires having a few helicopters. As someone with a lot of Aviation experience i would say at least 2 flyable at all times. With 6 potential aircraft that sounds easy right? i will assume many of you have never been in aircraft maintenance. With a budget as small as i would assume JSO has im sure its tough to keep that many up and flyable at all times. Being active duty military in a unit with 12 helicopters often times 6 are down for maintenance. Especially when you add the fact the aircraft have many many hours on them.
Now we get to the next fact of the matter. The OH-58A is a bell 206 ranger through and through.
this is what an oh58a looks like, its a b model, so its even newer. but roughly the same.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9e/Bell_OH-58_B_Kiowa_ABundesheer.JPG/800px-Bell_OH-58_B_Kiowa_ABundesheer.JPG
this is the oh58d, much more advanced, capable of carrying weapons,
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9a/OH-58D_2.jpg/741px-OH-58D_2.jpg
Many of the donated aircraft from the military are flight school aircraft. they have even less and less bells and whistles. They also have so many hours on them the military couldn't even afford to keep flying them.
Lastly, out of all the aircraft i have seen or worked on, a bell jetranger is the cheapest and easiest aircraft to work on. it just keeps flying.
Quote from: stephendare on July 24, 2013, 01:48:24 PM
Quote from: kidrcth on July 24, 2013, 01:38:48 PM
FYI for all you complaining, having a city the size of Jacksonville requires having a few helicopters. As someone with a lot of Aviation experience i would say at least 2 flyable at all times. With 6 potential aircraft that sounds easy right? i will assume many of you have never been in aircraft maintenance. With a budget as small as i would assume JSO has im sure its tough to keep that many up and flyable at all times. Being active duty military in a unit with 12 helicopters often times 6 are down for maintenance. Especially when you add the fact the aircraft have many many hours on them.
Now we get to the next fact of the matter. The OH-58A is a bell 206 ranger through and through.
this is what an oh58a looks like, its a b model, so its even newer. but roughly the same.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9e/Bell_OH-58_B_Kiowa_ABundesheer.JPG/800px-Bell_OH-58_B_Kiowa_ABundesheer.JPG
this is the oh58d, much more advanced, capable of carrying weapons,
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9a/OH-58D_2.jpg/741px-OH-58D_2.jpg
Many of the donated aircraft from the military are flight school aircraft. they have even less and less bells and whistles. They also have so many hours on them the military couldn't even afford to keep flying them.
Lastly, out of all the aircraft i have seen or worked on, a bell jetranger is the cheapest and easiest aircraft to work on. it just keeps flying.
thanks for the assumptions. We will assume that you didnt bother actually reading the thread or discussion before you posted.
i said for those complaining... i cant assume your complaining if you've had aircraft experience. it doesn't make sense to me. you should know better
Regardless of the how JSO got them, or really how much they cost to maintain they are worth it. Not only do they pick up police chases so that we don't have the "California-style" police chases through our streets, they provide massive amounts of scene lighting at night which keeps the officers safer, and the best point of utilizing one in my opinion is that it is extremely intimidating to the criminal. As for this thread, I did read all the comments and see that some people haven't changed LoL. The one "military" type helicopter that JSO has/had is actually a benefit, military surplus will provide it to a govt agency for $1 as long as they agree to maintain it. That's was how we got our first medevac where I grew up. However, just because it was used by the military doesn't make it "military", no more than me spending a night at the Holiday Inn Express makes me a brain surgeon.
Anyway, that's my $.02
Cool Stephen, that same DOD law allows any qualified non-profit to grab some of these toys too, hey, I can see it now, 'The Imperial Metro-Jacksonville.com City Redevelopment Force...' Has a ring to it! ::)