I think its pretty clear that the majority of these protestors don't have a clue what they are protesting. But by God, they are gonna protest something. They seem to exemplify the exact sort of folks you would expect at one of these mindless, anti-gov, anti-capitalist, anti-wealth get togethers. Perhaps many of them are disgruntled for one of the possible reasons:
1. Perhaps an evil bank actually expected them to make mortgage payments for the house they are living in. The nerve of them.
2. Perhaps they are angry because unemployment benefits actually did run out finally. Not fair.
3. Perhaps the bill has come due for their student loans to cover the 10 years of college they just completed. Evil Govt wanting to be repaid.
4. Perhaps some rich looking person driving an expensive European sports car just passed them on the freeway. This hurt their feelings.
5. Perhaps their parents suggested they deserve to have so much in life given to them. Or was that a reality tv show? Anyway, it just hasnt worked out that way for them. Someone is gonna hear from them, dammit!
Some of these ideas are pretty close. Some of us have to speculate because if you ask them what they want........um, well, oh you know......them evil banks and rich people arent fair.
Counting down to Steph appearing with a copy n paste of how stupid this post is. Dont let me down, Steph.
Banks Brace for Fallout on Earnings
"The protesters who have gathered for weeks near Wall Street and the highly paid investors and analysts in the buildings that surround them don't agree on much.
But when it comes to the nation's biggest banks, they have a lot more in common than you would think. Both are deeply frustrated with financial institutions in general and have little faith in the message coming from bank executives."
...Besides leaving consumers infuriated, the debit card fees have also drawn the wrath of the White House, with President Obama warning last week that customers should not be “mistreated†in pursuit of profit, while Vice President Joseph R. Biden Jr. characterized moves to hit consumers with new charges “incredibly tone deaf.†Senator Richard J. Durbin of Illinois, the No. 2 Senate Democrat, took the unusual step of denouncing Bank of America on the Senate floor, urging customers to “vote with your feet, get the heck out of that bank.â€
...And in a kind of unusual convergence, protesters and bank analysts alike have had it with bank management.
For the protesters, financial institutions, among other things, symbolize growing economic inequality in the United States, with bank executives enjoying huge pay packages even as their companies benefit from government support. Investors distrust them because they have disappointed the Street in quarter after quarter, and seem unable to grow.
Heres the link to the article,
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/10/business/banks-brace-for-bad-news-as-earnings-season-arrives.html?_r=1&ref=economy
Looks like they know exactly what they are protesting.
Why dont you protest the protesters? Go to Bank of America, Wells Fargo and proclaim your gratefulness for them providing you with the American Dream.
I don't even know where to begin with this drivel. But I'm going to give it a shot.
Quote1. Perhaps an evil bank actually expected them to make mortgage payments for the house they are living in. The nerve of them.
Perhaps they're protesting the fact that 1 in every 570 households is in foreclosure (1 in 376 in Florida). And the fact that most of the foreclosures are being fast-tracked with no recourse for the home owner. Nearly 28% of homeowners are underwater due to junk mortgages due to predatory lending by the banking institutions.
Quote2. Perhaps they are angry because unemployment benefits actually did run out finally. Not fair.
Perhaps they're angry because congress will not pass meaningful jobs legislation to create jobs. Perhaps they're angry because most companies hiring require you to have a job to gain employment. Perhaps they're angry that there are no jobs at all and the Republican lead house says "NO" to any legislation that may assist companies in hiring.
Quote3. Perhaps the bill has come due for their student loans to cover the 10 years of college they just completed. Evil Govt wanting to be repaid.
See my response to point number 2. If our college graduates could find employment to pay off their loans, they may not be in hot water. Perhaps they are angry because they're faced with rising tuition costs in the face of a jobs market that will never pay them enough to pay off their loans.
Quote4. Perhaps some rich looking person driving an expensive European sports car just passed them on the freeway. This hurt their feelings.
Perhaps their angry that the top 1% of the country control most of the wealth in the nation and refuse to pay their fair share of taxes.
Quote5. Perhaps their parents suggested they deserve to have so much in life given to them. Or was that a reality tv show? Anyway, it just hasnt worked out that way for them. Someone is gonna hear from them, dammit!
Perhaps they haven't bought into the false logic that is "the American Dream" which says "if you work hard, you'll be rich some day, just like me!" because all it's getting them is deeper in debt with the 1%. Perhaps they have compassion for their fellow man (one of the great Christian ideals, believe it or not.)
I believe that we know exactly what they're protesting for. But the right wing's efforts to try and delegitimize and marginalize us will only embolden us to act.
Sorry we don't have teabags hanging from our hats or anything, bro.
+1 RiversideLoki. My sentiments exactly.
Me next!
Quote from: RiversideLoki on October 10, 2011, 03:02:25 PM
I don't even know where to begin with this drivel. But I'm going to give it a shot.
Quote1. Perhaps an evil bank actually expected them to make mortgage payments for the house they are living in. The nerve of them.
Perhaps they're protesting the fact that 1 in every 570 households is in foreclosure (1 in 376 in Florida). And the fact that most of the foreclosures are being fast-tracked with no recourse for the home owner. Nearly 28% of homeowners are underwater due to junk mortgages due to predatory lending by the banking institutions.
Predatory lending. Like the lenders MADE the people sign on the dotted line. Don't you think it would've behooved people to actually read what they were getting into? Some common sense? Like, "I don't make this kind of money in a year in order to make that kind of monthly payment." I don't see how there were such big surprises.
QuoteQuote2. Perhaps they are angry because unemployment benefits actually did run out finally. Not fair.
Perhaps they're angry because congress will not pass meaningful jobs legislation to create jobs. Perhaps they're angry because most companies hiring require you to have a job to gain employment. Perhaps they're angry that there are no jobs at all and the Republican lead house says "NO" to any legislation that may assist companies in hiring.
Where was the Democratic-led House before them? What meaningful jobs bill did THEY pass? They had the majority in the House AND Senate and still did nothing.
QuoteQuote3. Perhaps the bill has come due for their student loans to cover the 10 years of college they just completed. Evil Govt wanting to be repaid.
See my response to point number 2. If our college graduates could find employment to pay off their loans, they may not be in hot water. Perhaps they are angry because they're faced with rising tuition costs in the face of a jobs market that will never pay them enough to pay off their loans.
Maybe we should look at WHY tuition costs are rising? Other than the evil Corporatists, which I'm sure have *something* to do with it.
QuoteQuote4. Perhaps some rich looking person driving an expensive European sports car just passed them on the freeway. This hurt their feelings.
Perhaps their angry that the top 1% of the country control most of the wealth in the nation and refuse to pay their fair share of taxes.
Perhaps this is one of those statements that has become the new 'bumper sticker' campaign slogan. If I make $250K I end up in the 35% tax bracket. If I make $40K I'm in the 28% tax bracket. A higher percentage gets taxed the higher your income goes. I fail to see the "fair share" aspect. What's fair? 40%? 50%? 80%?
http://www.factcheck.org/2008/05/top-1-what-they-make-and-pay/
http://www.american.com/archive/2007/november-december-magazine-contents/guess-who-really-pays-the-taxes
QuoteQuote5. Perhaps their parents suggested they deserve to have so much in life given to them. Or was that a reality tv show? Anyway, it just hasnt worked out that way for them. Someone is gonna hear from them, dammit!
Perhaps they haven't bought into the false logic that is "the American Dream" which says "if you work hard, you'll be rich some day, just like me!" because all it's getting them is deeper in debt with the 1%. Perhaps they have compassion for their fellow man (one of the great Christian ideals, believe it or not.)
Define rich. I'm working my ass of at two jobs (I'm sure someone's going to call me selfish at some point because I have two), able to make my mortgage payment, car payment, CC payment. I'm solidly in the 25% tax bracket. I don't have a lot of money, but I have a rich life. Get off the intangible "rich" and give me a number that you think is "rich".
And then defend why you think it's wrong, evil or greedy.
Quote
I believe that we know exactly what they're protesting for. But the right wing's efforts to try and delegitimize and marginalize us will only embolden us to act.
Who? Fox News? They're barely a credible news source anyway. This argument basically re-legitimizes them as such. Oops.
(http://i.imgur.com/BiuzE.png)
By the way, where is all the vitriol for the movie stars and producers, "other" corporate moguls (you'll notice no one has said a WORD about Oprah - probably the richest woman on the planet), and all the professional athletes and THEIR multi-millions?
Santonio Holmes? The Manning brothers? Tom Brady? A-Rod? Derek Jeter? Chad "Ochocinco" Johnson? Johnny Damon? LaDanian Tomlinson? Reggie Bush? Pau Gasol? Coach K?
Hell, our very own MoJo?
How about Bob Costas? Barbara Walters? Wolf Blitzer and Anderson Cooper? Lady Gaga and Britney Spears? Cher and Celine? How come we're not demanding that they pay their fair share as well? They're evil and rich and, by definition, greedy, aren't they?
Why stop at Wall Street or Hemming Plaza? You should be occupying Hollywood, every single movie theater and every major sports venue in the country as well.
Nope. Don't see that happening.
Why?
And while you're at it: boycott Apple, Microsoft, Facebook, McDonald's, Burger King, YUM! Brands, Google, and every other company listed on the Fortune 500. They're just as guilty and just as corporate.
Where's the outrage there?
Perhaps they see it as unjust that Bank of America was able to buy Countrywide and all of its mortgages in a fire sale. Why weren't the mortgagees given first option on buying there homes at this discount rate?
Perhaps it is just too obvious that the government of this country has legislated the welfare of corporations over the welfare of it's citizens at large for a few decades now. So it is just silly to ask why people are upset.
Quote from: JeffreyS on October 10, 2011, 04:58:26 PM
Perhaps they see it as unjust that Bank of America was able to buy Countrywide and all of its mortgages in a fire sale. Why weren't the mortgagees given first option on buying there homes at this discount rate?
Perhaps it is just too obvious that the government of this country has legislated the welfare of corporations over the welfare of it's citizens at large for a few decades now. So it is just silly to ask why people are upset.
Jeffrey--
I don't disagree in principle, and that's a very good point.
My point is, I'm not asking why people are upset. I'm asking why the "outrage" is so limited. If the outrage is against "corporations," as the protestors ostensibly say it is, then why only a handful? Why not all?
It's not meant to be a trick question, or a loaded/baited one. I simply want to know who we're supposed to be mad at, why, and what the solutions are.
Other than "kill the rich."
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/2011/10/06/2011-10-06_albany_bigs_get_emails_warning_of_violence_if_tax_on_rich_expires.html
There seems to be much confusion about the mortgage issue and the fallout from it. Yes... people bought houses which in hindsight were more than they could afford. The promise of ever increasing values. (Encouraged by news, mortgage brokers, financial advisers and politicians.)
It is the nature of a bubble: Mass Mania... Then the inevitable.
Mortgagees get foreclosed, home values plummet... people lose homes, investors lose money.... but wait! Some of these investors (and their agents) are "Too big to fail".
Let's bail out the investors with taxpayer money and guarantees in the form of TARP, Stimulus , and QE∞ . Meanwhile people with upside down mortgages languish in their losses, suffer lower earning power and become more enslaved by creditors (Who incidentally, were bailed out by their slaves tax dollars).
It is in fact, privatization of profits and socialization of losses, not to mention against any reasonable definition of equal protection under the law.
We need to be Occupying the US Capitol Complex and the White House grounds.
Until BOTH parties stop taking the lobbyist funding we can not fix the problems we have with our economy.
Look at the money trail, it is obscene what power these lobbyists hold over our Government.
The people we have elected continue to facilitate the money grab by Corporations and Unions that is strangling the middle class.
Read up on the Solyndra issue. I'm sure many here have. It is just one example of our Govt wasting money that could have been put to better use. It was a good company trying to facilitate green jobs, unfortunately after the influx of money from our Govt. they got money drunk, wastefully spending on executive salaries, and a cutting edge factory that was more extravagant than our Courthouse. They tried to hire a lobbyist full time to get more money from the Govt., rather than use what they were given in a frugal manner, you know like growing a business with a solid business plan that accurately scouted the market and its competition. The factory was liquidated at pennies on the dollar, some equipment never unwrapped.
In less than 1 year 1,100 workers put out of work with little or no severance, this is the Federal Govt's idea of $500 million worth of green job creation?
The Republicans and Democrats have too much control over the money and they don't want to give it up. If they keep everyone polarized and blaming the other side, they can continue to make their own pockets fatter.
There is no common sense nor ethical mores in Washington. Just one big money grab. That is our biggest problem.
I don't see a simple solution to our complex problems. Unfortunately I think it will take a major catastrophe or attack for the system to change.
Our "government" is just tolerating the Occupier movement at this time, hoping to out wait the masses and then somehow further discourage whoever steps forward to ringleader status. Gonna be a whole lot of lip service for the near future and a fade out worthy of Cecil B. DeMille.
I think most people know that an attempt to occupy the US Capital Complex or the White House grounds is totally left field. Those who try will simply disappear into a system they cannot hope to control.
Quote from: Ralph W on October 10, 2011, 05:36:20 PM
Our "government" is just tolerating the Occupier movement at this time, hoping to out wait the masses and then somehow further discourage whoever steps forward to ringleader status. Gonna be a whole lot of lip service for the near future and a fade out worthy of Cecil B. DeMille.
I think most people know that an attempt to occupy the US Capital Complex or the White House grounds is totally left field. Those who try will simply disappear into a system they cannot hope to control.
Actually they've backed themselves into a nice little corner, with their stance on the middle east. We've been directly responsible for overthrowing a half-dozen regimes over there with our spin on how democracy is the it thing, I can't imagine they can turn around and use similar tactics against their own population without fear of international reprisal. The US is so weakened at this point, I wouldn't put China or Russia above levying sanctions against the US. Really, WTF could we possibly do about it? The government has no choice but to tolerate the protesters.
The movement is going to go away. As much as the rhetoric inflames I don't see there being a substantive ending. We just don't have the stamina or fervor for the long haul. The defendant will prevail due to attrition in the plaintiff ranks.
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on October 10, 2011, 05:44:11 PM
Quote from: Ralph W on October 10, 2011, 05:36:20 PM
Our "government" is just tolerating the Occupier movement at this time, hoping to out wait the masses and then somehow further discourage whoever steps forward to ringleader status. Gonna be a whole lot of lip service for the near future and a fade out worthy of Cecil B. DeMille.
I think most people know that an attempt to occupy the US Capital Complex or the White House grounds is totally left field. Those who try will simply disappear into a system they cannot hope to control.
Actually they've backed themselves into a nice little corner, with their stance on the middle east. We've been directly responsible for overthrowing a half-dozen regimes over there with our spin on how democracy is the it thing, I can't imagine they can turn around and use similar tactics against their own population without fear of international reprisal. The US is so weakened at this point, I wouldn't put China or Russia above levying sanctions against the US. Really, WTF could we possibly do about it? The government has no choice but to tolerate the protesters.
With the statement of Obama, Veep Biden, and Sen Durban, i think the Democratic reps in Congress are (cautiously) tolerating, supporting the protesters.
Quote from: stephendare on October 10, 2011, 06:20:28 PM
Dr. K. I understand dumb from the usual suspects, but I expect better from you. Do you really think that these protests are about the actual existence of rich corporations?
Or do you actually get that this is about controlling public policy and fleecing you and your family----not for anything that does the public any good, but just for the thrill of stealing tax money for profit?
Stephen makes a good point with an example being G.E., who made billions in profits and paid a paltry tax bill. As written in todays Wall Street Journal , many republican( tea party) politicans and News Corp have made a regular target of GE chief Jeff Immelt. But only because Immelt heads the Presidents Council on Jobs. A huge majority of corporations pay federal taxes. This is one thing that these protests will accomplish. That its good for their interests to pay federal taxes, instead of seeking to avoid such (through their huge arsenal of tax lawyers.
Of all the above ideas on what the protests are to accomplish, I'm surprised no one has suggested a democratic landslide in next years election. With all the diversity ( my own term) it seems obvious that the one strong theme is democratic party philosophy.
A huge majority of corporations pay taxes? No matter what the courts say about corporations being "people" there's not one that pays one tax. That honor is left to you and me as consumers of whatever product is placed on the shelf.
We (they) want to force corporations to pay more federal taxes instead of using every avenue to avoid writing those checks but no one looks at where the money to do so comes from. Can you say, you and me? The real people behind the Corporation "person" are going to do everything in their power to maximize their own and their stockholders returns and paying more taxes is not in the cards. Whatever increase in taxes that does come about will be nickle and dimed from the bottom of the money bag - you and me.
Quote from: Doctor_K on October 10, 2011, 05:09:38 PM
Quote from: JeffreyS on October 10, 2011, 04:58:26 PM
Perhaps they see it as unjust that Bank of America was able to buy Countrywide and all of its mortgages in a fire sale. Why weren't the mortgagees given first option on buying there homes at this discount rate?
Perhaps it is just too obvious that the government of this country has legislated the welfare of corporations over the welfare of it's citizens at large for a few decades now. So it is just silly to ask why people are upset.
Jeffrey--
I don't disagree in principle, and that's a very good point.
My point is, I'm not asking why people are upset. I'm asking why the "outrage" is so limited. If the outrage is against "corporations," as the protestors ostensibly say it is, then why only a handful? Why not all?
It's not meant to be a trick question, or a loaded/baited one. I simply want to know who we're supposed to be mad at, why, and what the solutions are.
Other than "kill the rich."
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/2011/10/06/2011-10-06_albany_bigs_get_emails_warning_of_violence_if_tax_on_rich_expires.html
I think the lack of focus comes from the fact that the it has been a long slow muddled process of middle class sliding. There is no one great injustice to be resolved. The injury is made of a million cuts.
Quote from: Ralph W on October 10, 2011, 07:55:18 PM
A huge majority of corporations pay taxes? No matter what the courts say about corporations being "people" there's not one that pays one tax. That honor is left to you and me as consumers of whatever product is placed on the shelf.
We (they) want to force corporations to pay more federal taxes instead of using every avenue to avoid writing those checks but no one looks at where the money to do so comes from. Can you say, you and me? The real people behind the Corporation "person" are going to do everything in their power to maximize their own and their stockholders returns and paying more taxes is not in the cards. Whatever increase in taxes that does come about will be nickle and dimed from the bottom of the money bag - you and me.
You are right, i stand corrected
Quote from: RMHoward on October 10, 2011, 02:18:51 PM
I think its pretty clear that the majority of these protestors don't have a clue what they are protesting. But by God, they are gonna protest something. They seem to exemplify the exact sort of folks you would expect at one of these mindless, anti-gov, anti-capitalist, anti-wealth get togethers. Perhaps many of them are disgruntled for one of the possible reasons:
1. Perhaps an evil bank actually expected them to make mortgage payments for the house they are living in. The nerve of them.
2. Perhaps they are angry because unemployment benefits actually did run out finally. Not fair.
3. Perhaps the bill has come due for their student loans to cover the 10 years of college they just completed. Evil Govt wanting to be repaid.
4. Perhaps some rich looking person driving an expensive European sports car just passed them on the freeway. This hurt their feelings.
5. Perhaps their parents suggested they deserve to have so much in life given to them. Or was that a reality tv show? Anyway, it just hasnt worked out that way for them. Someone is gonna hear from them, dammit!
Some of these ideas are pretty close. Some of us have to speculate because if you ask them what they want........um, well, oh you know......them evil banks and rich people arent fair.
Counting down to Steph appearing with a copy n paste of how stupid this post is. Dont let me down, Steph.
LOL
Quote from: Doctor_K on October 10, 2011, 04:09:48 PM
By the way, where is all the vitriol for the movie stars and producers, "other" corporate moguls (you'll notice no one has said a WORD about Oprah - probably the richest woman on the planet), and all the professional athletes and THEIR multi-millions?
Santonio Holmes? The Manning brothers? Tom Brady? A-Rod? Derek Jeter? Chad "Ochocinco" Johnson? Johnny Damon? LaDanian Tomlinson? Reggie Bush? Pau Gasol? Coach K?
Hell, our very own MoJo?
How about Bob Costas? Barbara Walters? Wolf Blitzer and Anderson Cooper? Lady Gaga and Britney Spears? Cher and Celine? How come we're not demanding that they pay their fair share as well? They're evil and rich and, by definition, greedy, aren't they?
Why stop at Wall Street or Hemming Plaza? You should be occupying Hollywood, every single movie theater and every major sports venue in the country as well.
Nope. Don't see that happening.
Why?
And while you're at it: boycott Apple, Microsoft, Facebook, McDonald's, Burger King, YUM! Brands, Google, and every other company listed on the Fortune 500. They're just as guilty and just as corporate.
Where's the outrage there?
You made a great post!!!
I see in today's news some Occupy Boston protesters have been arrested for moving on to a Downtown Greenway.
No doubt there is a certain rowdy presence.By comparison,last weekend's Jacksonville event was certainly peaceful.
What would happen if the Protest Public was to converge on Hogans Creek???...
based on what I witnessed first hand last Saturday,my insert:
"Eclectic,Knowledgeable,Street Smart,Studious......"
There was a well dressed senior couple with high end vehicle.Nodes of good energy- a guy retired from JEA who recounted the role of First Baptist Downtown within JEA management and position placement circles,revelations in the "NO JEA IN CLAY"/proposed Green Cove coal fire plant era.His previous stint as camera man for George Winterling garnered a TV station interview Saturday.Channel 4 I believe.It dawned on me that I never watch the local news broadcasts anymore.
A chat with Shelton Hull,his grasp of issues,history and recounts of his recent District 14 Council seat exhilarating.
And the signs! 'Fight Truth Decay !',Ronald Reagan quotes that damn certain 'Conservative' outlooks and initiatives.
Urban Sprawl themes......no wonder Regional Boosters are so recently vigilant in casting images of support for the Beltway......this stuff could get effectively out of hand.
And for sure the far left elements,which makes me realize just how Center I am.I am glad I am here at Hemming Park.
As we stream out on to Laura Street,southbound, the horizon is dominated by WELLS FARGO atop the Independent Life building.The marchers include a dog wearing a sign that reads 'I Eat Bankers!'.
Over and over the marchers thank the Police officers for their efforts.......the Officer's smiles beam.
Like the sign says- A public that is afraid of their government is not a free public.Saturday's March was an exercise of Freedom,a reality check.
Sheets of rain do not deter the Marchers.I duck for cover......everyone else marches by,on purpose.........what a Pudd I am!.......I step back out in the rain.What price will we pay for Freedom?I think of more comfortable Downtown settings in the due course of "Protest"- at the Planning Commission and Council podium establishing "Standing",the fascinating after hours River Summit meeting brokered by top Jeb Bush officials.......I imagine this march could perhaps prove less futile.
Cheers!
Quote from: stephendare on October 10, 2011, 06:20:28 PM
Quote from: Doctor_K on October 10, 2011, 04:09:48 PM
By the way, where is all the vitriol for the movie stars and producers, "other" corporate moguls (you'll notice no one has said a WORD about Oprah - probably the richest woman on the planet), and all the professional athletes and THEIR multi-millions?
Santonio Holmes? The Manning brothers? Tom Brady? A-Rod? Derek Jeter? Chad "Ochocinco" Johnson? Johnny Damon? LaDanian Tomlinson? Reggie Bush? Pau Gasol? Coach K?
Hell, our very own MoJo?
How about Bob Costas? Barbara Walters? Wolf Blitzer and Anderson Cooper? Lady Gaga and Britney Spears? Cher and Celine? How come we're not demanding that they pay their fair share as well? They're evil and rich and, by definition, greedy, aren't they?
Why stop at Wall Street or Hemming Plaza? You should be occupying Hollywood, every single movie theater and every major sports venue in the country as well.
Nope. Don't see that happening.
Why?
And while you're at it: boycott Apple, Microsoft, Facebook, McDonald's, Burger King, YUM! Brands, Google, and every other company listed on the Fortune 500. They're just as guilty and just as corporate.
Where's the outrage there?
Dr. K. I understand dumb from the usual suspects, but I expect better from you. Do you really think that these protests are about the actual existence of rich corporations?
Or do you actually get that this is about controlling public policy and fleecing you and your family----not for anything that does the public any good, but just for the thrill of stealing tax money for profit?
Stephen-- Just trying to keep it interesting for you ;-)
I don't actually get it, which is why I'm asking the question. Some reports are corroborating the "get money/corporations out of government," while others are playing up the "99%" card.
I'm literallyand genuinely asking - what is it really? What exactly are we all protesting and outraged about?
Is it the anti-lobbying, anti-corporatist, get-money-out-of-government? Or is it the 99% versus 1% class warfare? IMO, there are two distinct movements here.
Quote from: Doctor_K on October 11, 2011, 09:08:21 AM
Stephen-- Just trying to keep it interesting for you ;-)
I don't actually get it, which is why I'm asking the question. Some reports are corroborating the "get money/corporations out of government," while others are playing up the "99%" card.
I'm literally and genuinely asking - what is it really? What exactly are we all protesting and outraged about?
Is it the anti-lobbying, anti-corporatist, get-money-out-of-government? Or is it the 99% versus 1% class warfare? IMO, there are two distinct movements here.
It's BOTH. That's the thing.
You don't see Rachel Maddow standing up on screen saying "Well, what ARE the Tea Party for? Are they anti-immigration? Or are they for smaller government? Or are they for no taxes? WE JUST DON'T KNOW!"
Your argument is illogical. Take the protests in the 60s. There were anti-war protesters, there were civil rights protesters, and there were anti-government protesters. You never saw anyone sit here and proclaim "WELL WHAT ARE THESE ANTI-WAR PROTESTERS PROTESTING FOR?!! WHARRRRGARBLLL!"
"Just because you don't get it doesn't mean it's stupid. It means you are."
Quote from: Doctor_K on October 10, 2011, 04:09:48 PM
By the way, where is all the vitriol for the movie stars and producers, "other" corporate moguls (you'll notice no one has said a WORD about Oprah - probably the richest woman on the planet), and all the professional athletes and THEIR multi-millions?
Santonio Holmes? The Manning brothers? Tom Brady? A-Rod? Derek Jeter? Chad "Ochocinco" Johnson? Johnny Damon? LaDanian Tomlinson? Reggie Bush? Pau Gasol? Coach K?
Hell, our very own MoJo?
How about Bob Costas? Barbara Walters? Wolf Blitzer and Anderson Cooper? Lady Gaga and Britney Spears? Cher and Celine? How come we're not demanding that they pay their fair share as well? They're evil and rich and, by definition, greedy, aren't they?
Why stop at Wall Street or Hemming Plaza? You should be occupying Hollywood, every single movie theater and every major sports venue in the country as well.
Nope. Don't see that happening.
Why?
And while you're at it: boycott Apple, Microsoft, Facebook, McDonald's, Burger King, YUM! Brands, Google, and every other company listed on the Fortune 500. They're just as guilty and just as corporate.
Where's the outrage there?
I'm of the opinion that professional athletes, performers, and Hollywood actors deserve every penny they make, for the most part. On the surface, Floyd Mayweather earning a $25 million purse to fight Victor Ortiz two weekends ago seems absurd. But when you consider the fact that well over
one million people were willing to pay $60 a pop to watch him fight on pay per view, with thousands of sports bars paying even more to air the fight, on top of a $10 million gate at the arena, of course he's entitled to that money. He earned it through hard work and showmanship. Where else should it go? To the cable companies? To the arena?
Same with Mojo. If 60,000+ people are willing to pay to see him perform, he
should see a huge chunk of that money. Or if ten million people buy tickets to see Tom Cruise's new movie. Or if Lady Gaga has ten number one hits, millions of record sales, and a sold out tour.
It's just sour grapes to be upset over things like the above.
It's much, much more complicated though when you start discussing these multinational corporations.
Quote from: RiversideLoki on October 11, 2011, 09:41:44 AM
Quote from: Doctor_K on October 11, 2011, 09:08:21 AM
Stephen-- Just trying to keep it interesting for you ;-)
I don't actually get it, which is why I'm asking the question. Some reports are corroborating the "get money/corporations out of government," while others are playing up the "99%" card.
I'm literally and genuinely asking - what is it really? What exactly are we all protesting and outraged about?
Is it the anti-lobbying, anti-corporatist, get-money-out-of-government? Or is it the 99% versus 1% class warfare? IMO, there are two distinct movements here.
It's BOTH. That's the thing.
You don't see Rachel Maddow standing up on screen saying "Well, what ARE the Tea Party for? Are they anti-immigration? Or are they for smaller government? Or are they for no taxes? WE JUST DON'T KNOW!"
Your argument is illogical. Take the protests in the 60s. There were anti-war protesters, there were civil rights protesters, and there were anti-government protesters. You never saw anyone sit here and proclaim "WELL WHAT ARE THESE ANTI-WAR PROTESTERS PROTESTING FOR?!! WHARRRRGARBLLL!"
"Just because you don't get it doesn't mean it's stupid. It means you are."
Well I certainly appreciate being called stupid because I'm asking questions and trying to better educate myself.
Awesome.
Wow. Millions of people willing to pay millions to watch someone beat the fool out of another. Millions more to watch a strangely costumed performer gyrate to thumping non-music and millions more to watch mere seconds at a time of athletic ability on expensive grass. And that's just the gate bucks. Millions of people willing to pay the advertising fee to hype all this in order to sell more of the same and a few gallons of beer and pop.
That's important stuff!! But will millions pony up millions to stop the insanity of the nanny state, the suborning of the government? Nah. Millions will pop a can top and break out the pretzels and nosh and sit as zombies or scream at the big screen for hours rather than use the technology and the gray matter to straighten out the lay of the land.
I think it is not meant to be focused on just one problem but a call to find more equity for the middle class in the system.
Quote from: Ralph W on October 11, 2011, 10:29:54 AM
But will millions pony up millions to stop the insanity of the nanny state, the suborning of the government? Nah. Millions will pop a can top and break out the pretzels and nosh and sit as zombies or scream at the big screen for hours rather than use the technology and the gray matter to straighten out the lay of the land.
Sad, but true my friend.
Quote from: Doctor_K on October 11, 2011, 10:17:13 AM
Well I certainly appreciate being called stupid because I'm asking questions and trying to better educate myself.
Awesome.
I apologize if I'm coming off as crass. But honestly, I can't tell if you're just being genuinely dim-witted or disingenuous when you start spouting that kind of rhetoric. If you're buying into the whole right-wing attack machine line of "Well we really just don't know what they're protesting about!" then you aren't even paying attention to the issues and I WISH I lived in a bubble as cozy as yours. However, if you're just not up to speed with the actual issues the protesters are taking to task, I can accept that.
Quote from: Doctor_K on October 11, 2011, 10:17:13 AM
Quote from: RiversideLoki on October 11, 2011, 09:41:44 AM
Quote from: Doctor_K on October 11, 2011, 09:08:21 AM
Stephen-- Just trying to keep it interesting for you ;-)
I don't actually get it, which is why I'm asking the question. Some reports are corroborating the "get money/corporations out of government," while others are playing up the "99%" card.
I'm literally and genuinely asking - what is it really? What exactly are we all protesting and outraged about?
Is it the anti-lobbying, anti-corporatist, get-money-out-of-government? Or is it the 99% versus 1% class warfare? IMO, there are two distinct movements here.
It's BOTH. That's the thing.
You don't see Rachel Maddow standing up on screen saying "Well, what ARE the Tea Party for? Are they anti-immigration? Or are they for smaller government? Or are they for no taxes? WE JUST DON'T KNOW!"
Your argument is illogical. Take the protests in the 60s. There were anti-war protesters, there were civil rights protesters, and there were anti-government protesters. You never saw anyone sit here and proclaim "WELL WHAT ARE THESE ANTI-WAR PROTESTERS PROTESTING FOR?!! WHARRRRGARBLLL!"
"Just because you don't get it doesn't mean it's stupid. It means you are."
Well I certainly appreciate being called stupid because I'm asking questions and trying to better educate myself.
Awesome.
I asked some questions regarding the movement the other day and hillary supporter answered them. I appreciated that the answers were answered in a civil, non sarcastic and genuine manner.
Quote from: RiversideLoki on October 11, 2011, 10:53:02 AM
Quote from: Doctor_K on October 11, 2011, 10:17:13 AM
Well I certainly appreciate being called stupid because I'm asking questions and trying to better educate myself.
Awesome.
I apologize if I'm coming off as crass. But honestly, I can't tell if you're just being genuinely dim-witted or disingenuous when you start spouting that kind of rhetoric. If you're buying into the whole right-wing attack machine line of "Well we really just don't know what they're protesting about!" then you aren't even paying attention to the issues and I WISH I lived in a bubble as cozy as yours. However, if you're just not up to speed with the actual issues the protesters are taking to task, I can accept that.
Fair enough.
For the record, I am indeed asking the questions because I am indeed not up to speed.
What you call cozy bubble, I call providing for my family to the best of my ability. I'm using my time as best as I can.
Quote from: BridgeTroll on October 11, 2011, 11:05:50 AM
I asked some questions regarding the movement the other day and hillary supporter answered them. I appreciated that the answers were answered in a civil, non sarcastic and genuine manner.
Good to know!
Quote from: Doctor_K on October 10, 2011, 04:09:48 PM
By the way, where is all the vitriol for the movie stars and producers, "other" corporate moguls (you'll notice no one has said a WORD about Oprah - probably the richest woman on the planet), and all the professional athletes and THEIR multi-millions?
Santonio Holmes? The Manning brothers? Tom Brady? A-Rod? Derek Jeter? Chad "Ochocinco" Johnson? Johnny Damon? LaDanian Tomlinson? Reggie Bush? Pau Gasol? Coach K?
Hell, our very own MoJo?
How about Bob Costas? Barbara Walters? Wolf Blitzer and Anderson Cooper? Lady Gaga and Britney Spears? Cher and Celine? How come we're not demanding that they pay their fair share as well? They're evil and rich and, by definition, greedy, aren't they?
Why stop at Wall Street or Hemming Plaza? You should be occupying Hollywood, every single movie theater and every major sports venue in the country as well.
Nope. Don't see that happening.
Why?
And while you're at it: boycott Apple, Microsoft, Facebook, McDonald's, Burger King, YUM! Brands, Google, and every other company listed on the Fortune 500. They're just as guilty and just as corporate.
Where's the outrage there?
There is a point here and there is blame to be placed, but it is not on the celebrities. It's nearly impossible to reach the level of success of Mayweather, Manning, etc.... They have worked tirelessly for decades to get where they are. They deserve everything that comes to them. The criticism should be on us. Why are we spending so much money on entertainment when most of us have no net worth?? We are the Roman mob cheering for gladiators as the empire collapses around us. We need to get our personal affairs in order and tighten our individual belts. Then we can point fingers at the people profiting off of us.
That being said, I think there is plenty of blame to be shelled out on the consumer goods companies. Their prices keep going up, their quality keeps going down, and they are destroying the smaller companies that make a decent product. Some companies are achieving success while maintaining responsible business practices, but most of them then get bought out and tanked by the 800 pound gorillas of the industries. At the same time, we are allowing Starbucks, McDonald's and Applebee's to reduce our wallets, expand our waistlines, and destroy our health while making huge profits. We need higher standards.
Quote from: Captain Zissou on October 11, 2011, 11:25:20 AM
Quote from: Doctor_K on October 10, 2011, 04:09:48 PM
By the way, where is all the vitriol for the movie stars and producers, "other" corporate moguls (you'll notice no one has said a WORD about Oprah - probably the richest woman on the planet), and all the professional athletes and THEIR multi-millions?
Santonio Holmes? The Manning brothers? Tom Brady? A-Rod? Derek Jeter? Chad "Ochocinco" Johnson? Johnny Damon? LaDanian Tomlinson? Reggie Bush? Pau Gasol? Coach K?
Hell, our very own MoJo?
How about Bob Costas? Barbara Walters? Wolf Blitzer and Anderson Cooper? Lady Gaga and Britney Spears? Cher and Celine? How come we're not demanding that they pay their fair share as well? They're evil and rich and, by definition, greedy, aren't they?
Why stop at Wall Street or Hemming Plaza? You should be occupying Hollywood, every single movie theater and every major sports venue in the country as well.
Nope. Don't see that happening.
Why?
And while you're at it: boycott Apple, Microsoft, Facebook, McDonald's, Burger King, YUM! Brands, Google, and every other company listed on the Fortune 500. They're just as guilty and just as corporate.
Where's the outrage there?
There is a point here and there is blame to be placed, but it is not on the celebrities. It's nearly impossible to reach the level of success of Mayweather, Manning, etc.... They deserve everything that comes to them. The criticism should be on us. Why are we spending so much money on entertainment when most of us have no net worth?? We are the Roman mob cheering for gladiators as the empire collapses around us. We need to get our personal affairs in order and tighten our individual belts. Then we can point fingers at the people profiting off of us.
That being said, I think there is plenty of blame to be shelled out on the consumer goods companies. Their prices keep going up, their quality keeps going down, and they are destroying the smaller companies that make a decent product. Some companies are achieving success while maintaining responsible business practices, but most of them then get bought out and tanked by the 800 pound gorillas of the industries. At the same time, we are allowing Starbucks, McDonald's and Applebee's to reduce our wallets, expand our waistlines, and destroy our health while making huge profits. We need higher standards.
Meh, you've got 1/5'th of the country that can't afford basic food and housing, if they want to watch TV let them. The problems are not individual at this point, they're systemic.
Quote from: Doctor_K on October 11, 2011, 11:08:15 AM
Quote from: BridgeTroll on October 11, 2011, 11:05:50 AM
I asked some questions regarding the movement the other day and hillary supporter answered them. I appreciated that the answers were answered in a civil, non sarcastic and genuine manner.
Good to know!
:) You guys are the best!
Quote
Meh, you've got 1/5'th of the country that can't afford basic food and housing, if they want to watch TV let them. The problems are not individual at this point, they're systemic.
By all means they can waste their life if they want to, but when the other 4/5th's are paying for them to watch tv is where I have an issue.
^Bingo!
Quote from: Captain Zissou on October 11, 2011, 11:38:13 AM
Quote
Meh, you've got 1/5'th of the country that can't afford basic food and housing, if they want to watch TV let them. The problems are not individual at this point, they're systemic.
By all means they can waste their life if they want to, but when the other 4/5th's are paying for them to watch tv is where I have an issue.
There are not enough jobs for the number of working-age people in this country, and most of their savings were decimated by the 1-2 punch of the housing collapse and the market crash. What do you expect them to do? Click their heels 3 times and make a job appear, or money show up in their bank account? You are being rather myopic, the problems are largely systemic.
Quote from: Captain Zissou on October 11, 2011, 11:38:13 AM
Quote
Meh, you've got 1/5'th of the country that can't afford basic food and housing, if they want to watch TV let them. The problems are not individual at this point, they're systemic.
By all means they can waste their life if they want to, but when the other 4/5th's are paying for them to watch tv is where I have an issue.
X2
Quote from: Doctor_K on October 11, 2011, 11:07:37 AM
Quote from: RiversideLoki on October 11, 2011, 10:53:02 AM
Quote from: Doctor_K on October 11, 2011, 10:17:13 AM
Well I certainly appreciate being called stupid because I'm asking questions and trying to better educate myself.
Awesome.
I apologize if I'm coming off as crass. But honestly, I can't tell if you're just being genuinely dim-witted or disingenuous when you start spouting that kind of rhetoric. If you're buying into the whole right-wing attack machine line of "Well we really just don't know what they're protesting about!" then you aren't even paying attention to the issues and I WISH I lived in a bubble as cozy as yours. However, if you're just not up to speed with the actual issues the protesters are taking to task, I can accept that.
Fair enough.
For the record, I am indeed asking the questions because I am indeed not up to speed.
What you call cozy bubble, I call providing for my family to the best of my ability. I'm using my time as best as I can.
Well Dr. K,
You dont understand because there is simply no answer. After 3 pages of conversation on this topic, you have not been given a satisfactory answer because one does not exist. However, as is expected, you have been called "stupid" or been accused of living in a bubble. The truth is that many on this forum dont understand themselves. What they do know is that these groups protesting are supported, if not financed and directed by elements in the far left. That in itself is more than enough to garner the full support of many (not all) on this forum. Its like the mindless repeating of Mr. Microphone at the protests.
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on October 11, 2011, 12:24:59 PM
Quote from: Captain Zissou on October 11, 2011, 11:38:13 AM
Quote
Meh, you've got 1/5'th of the country that can't afford basic food and housing, if they want to watch TV let them. The problems are not individual at this point, they're systemic.
By all means they can waste their life if they want to, but when the other 4/5th's are paying for them to watch tv is where I have an issue.
There are not enough jobs for the number of working-age people in this country, and most of their savings were decimated by the 1-2 punch of the housing collapse and the market crash. What do you expect them to do? Click their heels 3 times and make a job appear, or money show up in their bank account? You are being rather myopic, the problems are largely systemic.
The people who make up the unemployment figure (those actually seeking a job) are not who I am talking about. I was among them and reversed my fortune from a negative net worth to a comfortable existence. They will too.
I'm talking about those who have never tried to find a job, who are still watching a new tv and wearing designer clothes courtesy of Uncle Sam. To think that the actual unemployed are the problem is myopic.
From City Journal:
http://www.city-journal.org/2011/eon1007ng.html (http://www.city-journal.org/2011/eon1007ng.html)
QuoteNicole Gelinas
Apples and Oranges
Steve Jobs was a real capitalist, as the Wall Street protesters seem to understand.
7 October 2011
Steve Jobs was a wealthy man. Yet the crowds that have descended on Apple stores since his death Wednesday night have shown only gratitude for his vision, not resentment of his money. “I came not just because I work on Macs,†graphic designer Effie Latif told the New York Post, but out of respect for Jobs’s drive. “Even when he was sick, he was working for the company, was so dedicated.â€
When word of Jobs’s death got out to the Occupy Wall Street protest in Lower Manhattan, where some protesters have used Apple’s products to disseminate their message, “the typing stopped.†It would be easy to say that Occupy Wall Street’s grief over Jobs’s death is a sign of the movement’s hypocrisy. In their first official statement, didn’t the protesters say that they stand with people “who feel wronged by the corporate forces of the world� And aren’t they demonstrating against the “1 percent†of the population to which Jobs belonged?
But the protesters’ affection for Jobs isn’t necessarily a sign of bad faith or ignorance. Rather, it could be a healthy discernment, however poorly articulated. The point is not that Jobs was “this different, quiet billionaire,†as one protester put it, but that he lived by the rules through which free-market capitalism should work. When Apple released a product that people rejected, such as the Apple III or the Lisa in the early eighties, the company suffered the consequences. Apple could not expect tens of billions of dollars from the U.S. Treasury or from the Federal Reserve to save it from its own mistakes. Apple was not too big to fail. Before the iPod, the company was struggling. Apple had to make itself too good to failâ€"and that’s exactly what it did.
Contrast the capitalist world in which Jobs lived with “capitalism,†as the U.S. government has applied it to the big banks against which the Zuccotti Park crowd isâ€"imperfectlyâ€"protesting. If you’re a bank or an insurance firm, and you create a product that your investors and your regulators can’t understand in a crisis, you aren’t punished, as Apple was when it released products too complex for its customers. Instead, you get rewarded with bailout money. It’s hard to argue with the Zuccotti protesters’ manifesto on this point: “They have taken bailouts from taxpayers with impunity.â€
In the past few years, surviving banks have “succeeded†not by giving people needed or wanted products, as Apple did, but through their ability to hold the entire global economy hostage. Imagine if Apple and Microsoft executives, instead of competing against one another, had banded together to deliver taxpayers an ultimatum: give us tens of billions to stay afloat, or else we’ll blow up the whole economy. Does anyone think that strangers would be leaving flowers, photos, and bitten fruit?
If this is capitalism, we should all be protesting it. The good news is that it’s not. We’re in this messâ€"with unemployment holding at 9.1 percentâ€"because the capital markets are utterly broken, and have been for some time.
Who broke the markets? Both parties in Washington. Republicans and Democrats treated financial firms as a class protected from capitalism for years, so long as the banks would keep feeding debt to American homeowners and consumers. To maintain their protected status, large financial firms fed some of the spoils right back to the politicians, in the form of campaign contributions and revolving-door jobs. The Dodd-Frank law, an attempt by the Obama administration and Congress to ensure that massive financial bailouts are a thing of the past, only tied Washington and Wall Street even more closely together. It hasn’t solved the problem any more effectively than the protesters have.
Politicians of both parties should be wary about painting the Occupy Wall Street protesters as “dangerous†or as wagers of “class warfare,†as Mitt Romney did earlier this week. They should be careful, too, in confusing the hard-core, overnight campers in Zuccotti Park with people who go to work every day but share the protesters’ post-TARP alienation. Tom Dematteis, a pizzeria owner and Navy veteran, told the Wall Street Journal Tuesday that “it was his first time protesting and he didn’t plan to camp out,†but that “he believes the financial system . . . doesn’t work for average Americans.†One of President Obama’s rivals might do well to address the fear and anger expressed in the protests. After all, on Thursday, Obama said: “The American people understand that not everybody has been following the rules; that Wall Street is an example of that.†If that’s still true more than a year after Obama signed Dodd-Frank, then the president is accountable.
In the long term, what’s far more “dangerous†than a motley group of civil dissidentsâ€"and far more expensive than a few million dollars in NYPD overtimeâ€"is a bipartisan policy of pretending that the financial crisis and the enormous harm that it has done to America is somehow over and done with. The financial crisis, and government’s response to it, remains with us, as does the debt that spurred the crisis. Ignoring it won’t make it go away.
Nicole Gelinas, a City Journal contributing editor and the Searle Freedom Trust Fellow at the Manhattan Institute, is the author of After the Fall: Saving Capitalism from Wall Streetâ€"and Washington.
Quote from: stephendare on October 11, 2011, 01:30:24 PM
sorry, I couldnt resist.
Occupy Sesame Street
(http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/310914_160580290700038_159818307442903_280569_1352630025_n.jpg)
Post the other one where the cop is peppering the muffet. Those muffets are boshelviks, i mean look why else is he red!
Quote from: urbanlibertarian on October 11, 2011, 01:47:21 PM
From City Journal:
http://www.city-journal.org/2011/eon1007ng.html (http://www.city-journal.org/2011/eon1007ng.html)
QuoteNicole Gelinas
Apples and Oranges
Steve Jobs was a real capitalist, as the Wall Street protesters seem to understand.
7 October 2011
Steve Jobs was a wealthy man. Yet the crowds that have descended on Apple stores since his death Wednesday night have shown only gratitude for his vision, not resentment of his money. “I came not just because I work on Macs,†graphic designer Effie Latif told the New York Post, but out of respect for Jobs’s drive. “Even when he was sick, he was working for the company, was so dedicated.â€
When word of Jobs’s death got out to the Occupy Wall Street protest in Lower Manhattan, where some protesters have used Apple’s products to disseminate their message, “the typing stopped.†It would be easy to say that Occupy Wall Street’s grief over Jobs’s death is a sign of the movement’s hypocrisy. In their first official statement, didn’t the protesters say that they stand with people “who feel wronged by the corporate forces of the world� And aren’t they demonstrating against the “1 percent†of the population to which Jobs belonged?
But the protesters’ affection for Jobs isn’t necessarily a sign of bad faith or ignorance. Rather, it could be a healthy discernment, however poorly articulated. The point is not that Jobs was “this different, quiet billionaire,†as one protester put it, but that he lived by the rules through which free-market capitalism should work. When Apple released a product that people rejected, such as the Apple III or the Lisa in the early eighties, the company suffered the consequences. Apple could not expect tens of billions of dollars from the U.S. Treasury or from the Federal Reserve to save it from its own mistakes. Apple was not too big to fail. Before the iPod, the company was struggling. Apple had to make itself too good to failâ€"and that’s exactly what it did.
Contrast the capitalist world in which Jobs lived with “capitalism,†as the U.S. government has applied it to the big banks against which the Zuccotti Park crowd isâ€"imperfectlyâ€"protesting. If you’re a bank or an insurance firm, and you create a product that your investors and your regulators can’t understand in a crisis, you aren’t punished, as Apple was when it released products too complex for its customers. Instead, you get rewarded with bailout money. It’s hard to argue with the Zuccotti protesters’ manifesto on this point: “They have taken bailouts from taxpayers with impunity.â€
In the past few years, surviving banks have “succeeded†not by giving people needed or wanted products, as Apple did, but through their ability to hold the entire global economy hostage. Imagine if Apple and Microsoft executives, instead of competing against one another, had banded together to deliver taxpayers an ultimatum: give us tens of billions to stay afloat, or else we’ll blow up the whole economy. Does anyone think that strangers would be leaving flowers, photos, and bitten fruit?
If this is capitalism, we should all be protesting it. The good news is that it’s not. We’re in this messâ€"with unemployment holding at 9.1 percentâ€"because the capital markets are utterly broken, and have been for some time.
Who broke the markets? Both parties in Washington. Republicans and Democrats treated financial firms as a class protected from capitalism for years, so long as the banks would keep feeding debt to American homeowners and consumers. To maintain their protected status, large financial firms fed some of the spoils right back to the politicians, in the form of campaign contributions and revolving-door jobs. The Dodd-Frank law, an attempt by the Obama administration and Congress to ensure that massive financial bailouts are a thing of the past, only tied Washington and Wall Street even more closely together. It hasn’t solved the problem any more effectively than the protesters have.
Politicians of both parties should be wary about painting the Occupy Wall Street protesters as “dangerous†or as wagers of “class warfare,†as Mitt Romney did earlier this week. They should be careful, too, in confusing the hard-core, overnight campers in Zuccotti Park with people who go to work every day but share the protesters’ post-TARP alienation. Tom Dematteis, a pizzeria owner and Navy veteran, told the Wall Street Journal Tuesday that “it was his first time protesting and he didn’t plan to camp out,†but that “he believes the financial system . . . doesn’t work for average Americans.†One of President Obama’s rivals might do well to address the fear and anger expressed in the protests. After all, on Thursday, Obama said: “The American people understand that not everybody has been following the rules; that Wall Street is an example of that.†If that’s still true more than a year after Obama signed Dodd-Frank, then the president is accountable.
In the long term, what’s far more “dangerous†than a motley group of civil dissidentsâ€"and far more expensive than a few million dollars in NYPD overtimeâ€"is a bipartisan policy of pretending that the financial crisis and the enormous harm that it has done to America is somehow over and done with. The financial crisis, and government’s response to it, remains with us, as does the debt that spurred the crisis. Ignoring it won’t make it go away.
Nicole Gelinas, a City Journal contributing editor and the Searle Freedom Trust Fellow at the Manhattan Institute, is the author of After the Fall: Saving Capitalism from Wall Streetâ€"and Washington.
Great find UL
+1
Like
Quote from: Captain Zissou on October 11, 2011, 12:37:12 PM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on October 11, 2011, 12:24:59 PM
Quote from: Captain Zissou on October 11, 2011, 11:38:13 AM
Quote
Meh, you've got 1/5'th of the country that can't afford basic food and housing, if they want to watch TV let them. The problems are not individual at this point, they're systemic.
By all means they can waste their life if they want to, but when the other 4/5th's are paying for them to watch tv is where I have an issue.
There are not enough jobs for the number of working-age people in this country, and most of their savings were decimated by the 1-2 punch of the housing collapse and the market crash. What do you expect them to do? Click their heels 3 times and make a job appear, or money show up in their bank account? You are being rather myopic, the problems are largely systemic.
The people who make up the unemployment figure (those actually seeking a job) are not who I am talking about. I was among them and reversed my fortune from a negative net worth to a comfortable existence. They will too.
I'm talking about those who have never tried to find a job, who are still watching a new tv and wearing designer clothes courtesy of Uncle Sam. To think that the actual unemployed are the problem is myopic.
Then your entire rebuttal was a strawman, since you've now acknowledged you were talking about something different than the systemic issues I was referring to. At the end of the day, there are less jobs than people. You can tell whatever feel-good personal story of success that you want, and unless that systemic problem is addressed then there will continue to be large numbers of unemployed people. A fact you seem rather reticent to address.
The support for your argument is some personal belief that these people must be wasting their money on designer clothes and vegging out in front of the TV all day, rather than the more obvious problem we face, which is that the economy is in the toilet and there are more people than there are jobs. I think the protests and general frustration you're seeing from much of the public is a reflection of this very conversation, there is always some feel-good downhome 'commonsense' bullcrap answer interjected into what really should be a discussion of systemic deficiencies. Just because you ignore, doesn't mean it'll go away.
Quote from: JeffreyS on October 11, 2011, 01:52:22 PM
Quote from: urbanlibertarian on October 11, 2011, 01:47:21 PM
From City Journal:
http://www.city-journal.org/2011/eon1007ng.html (http://www.city-journal.org/2011/eon1007ng.html)
Great find UL
+1
Like
So with all of his generosity and goodwill to man you would think that maybe he could have helped out the home economy a little more. Don't you think? How much $$$ has he poured into the Chinese economy, having the parts and processors made overseas. Parts and processors that could be made over here or even assembled over here. You know, creating jobs on the homefront. It would have eaten into his profit margin a little, but hey, at least he's 'one of the good corporate CEOs'. Who's interest is he really looking out for?
Maybe it was SJ's view on disposable goods. Make a solid, easy to use product that will last a lifetime. Yet, he keeps upgrading his basic equipment, knowing that the faithful will have to have the latest and greatest. How's that I-Phone4'S' working for everyone? I can't wait until the I-Phone 5 drops in another 6 months. C'mon sheeple. It's all in the name of ,um, growth. Or maybe it's another $400, oops, I put the antennae where your finger goes mistake again.
And sure, unlike the banks, the gov't would have never stepped in and helped them out if the company were to tank, but I'm sure that Apple's money isn't buried in a mason jar out in the woods, is it? So, in contrast, didn't they benefit more than the rest of us by the gov't propping up the other
crooks profiteers.
Maybe the unemployed are just wasting their time on forums all day.....
Your argument is absurd. Your 'systemic problem' is something that has been true for tens of thousands of years. There has never been 100% employment, never. It's not new to our society. What is new is the welfare state that we have recently established. We'll never have a sufficient number of jobs for the entire country to be employed. We can quit throwing good money after bad. Being philanthropic and compassionate is one thing, but practically setting tax dollars on fire to make sure the average household in poverty has 2.4 TV's is something entirely different.
My story isn't a feel good one. It is an argument against your 'systemic problem'. I was without job and without money. After enough dead ends I finally found a job. This happens thousands of times daily. There are many who are unable to find a job, and some won't, but it is not a systemic problem caused by a marriage of Wall Street and the White House. It's a fact of life. Tough economic times allow for ingenuity and innovation. Adapt and thrive.
Quote from: Captain Zissou on October 11, 2011, 02:53:42 PM
Being philanthropic and compassionate is one thing, but practically setting tax dollars on fire to make sure the average household in poverty has 2.4 TV's is something entirely different.
I just want to add that this type of lifestyle is in no way indicative of wealth, or higher class, or even of being able to succeed. Consumer goods have dropped in value steeply over the past decades. Old models of items and things are cheap. But what hasn't dropped is the price of things that allow people to climb out of poverty, or in some cases even prevent it.
Summed up in the article: The stuff you're making is getting cheaper. The stuff you need is getting more expensive.
http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2011/07/30-million-in-poverty-arent-as-poor-as-you-think-says-heritage-foundation/242191/ (http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2011/07/30-million-in-poverty-arent-as-poor-as-you-think-says-heritage-foundation/242191/)
QuoteProductivity increases in electronics, food manufacturing, and textiles have made consumer electronics, food, and clothes extremely cheap. Watching TV, reading news, listing to music, wearing clothes, and eating meals has never been more affordable, because we've figured out ways to bring down their cost through automation, outsourcing, and new technology.
(http://cdn.theatlantic.com/static/mt/assets/business/productivity%20health.png)
Long story interesting, it isn't your extra tv that's making or breaking you, its the sky rocketing costs of health care, access to food, and affordable housing that will.
The protesters gained the high ground the second the police wet themselves and the pepper spray came out. High marks to the police in Jax who showed a belief in citizens rights.
Quote from: JeffreyS on October 11, 2011, 06:42:12 PM
The protesters gained the high ground the second the police wet themselves and the pepper spray came out. High marks to the police in Jax who showed a belief in citizens rights.
Last Saturday in Jacksonville the Protesters drove the police to smiles.
Quote from: north miami on October 11, 2011, 07:02:44 AM
I see in today's news some Occupy Boston protesters have been arrested for moving on to a Downtown Greenway.
No doubt there is a certain rowdy presence.By comparison,last weekend's Jacksonville event was certainly peaceful.
What would happen if the Protest Public was to converge on Hogans Creek???...
based on what I witnessed first hand last Saturday,my insert:
"Eclectic,Knowledgeable,Street Smart,Studious......"
There was a well dressed senior couple with high end vehicle.Nodes of good energy- a guy retired from JEA who recounted the role of First Baptist Downtown within JEA management and position placement circles,revelations in the "NO JEA IN CLAY"/proposed Green Cove coal fire plant era.His previous stint as camera man for George Winterling garnered a TV station interview Saturday.Channel 4 I believe.It dawned on me that I never watch the local news broadcasts anymore.
A chat with Shelton Hull,his grasp of issues,history and recounts of his recent District 14 Council seat exhilarating.
And the signs! 'Fight Truth Decay !',Ronald Reagan quotes that damn certain 'Conservative' outlooks and initiatives.
Urban Sprawl themes......no wonder Regional Boosters are so recently vigilant in casting images of support for the Beltway......this stuff could get effectively out of hand.
And for sure the far left elements,which makes me realize just how Center I am.I am glad I am here at Hemming Park.
As we stream out on to Laura Street,southbound, the horizon is dominated by WELLS FARGO atop the Independent Life building.The marchers include a dog wearing a sign that reads 'I Eat Bankers!'.
Over and over the marchers thank the Police officers for their efforts.......the Officer's smiles beam.
Like the sign says- A public that is afraid of their government is not a free public.Saturday's March was an exercise of Freedom,a reality check.
Sheets of rain do not deter the Marchers.I duck for cover......everyone else marches by,on purpose.........what a Pudd I am!.......I step back out in the rain.What price will we pay for Freedom?I think of more comfortable Downtown settings in the due course of "Protest"- at the Planning Commission and Council podium establishing "Standing",the fascinating after hours River Summit meeting brokered by top Jeb Bush officials.......I imagine this march could perhaps prove less futile.
Cheers!
Just wanted to say thank you for that awesome description of the sentiments on the street at the Occuoy Jacksonville event, since nobody commented on it yet in this thread.
Too bad I didn't get to meet dogwalker and you there.
We need a Metrojacksonville button to identify ourselves ;)
Quote from: FayeforCure on October 12, 2011, 08:50:52 AM
Just wanted to say thank you for that awesome description of the sentiments on the street at the Occuoy Jacksonville event, since nobody commented on it yet in this thread.
Too bad I didn't get to meet dogwalker and you there.
We need a Metrojacksonville button to identify ourselves ;)
And/or those long-talked-about and long-desired MetroJacksonville t-shirts.
Where is "The Compound" when we need them? :D