Quote(http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/storyimages/29934.jpg)
The Downtown Development Review Board is scheduled this week to review designs for the proposed Jacksonville Regional Transportation Center Greyhound Terminal. The project, called Greyhound Terminal Phase 1, is planned north of the Osborn Center and east of Interstate 95 between West Adams and West Houston streets. The board, part of the Jacksonville Economic Development Commission, also is expected to discuss a JEA parking lot, the JAX Chamber façade renovation and the Downtown Vision Inc. Laura Street façade program. The meeting is 2 p.m. at the Police and Fire Pension Fund Building at 1 W. Adams St.
http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=534577
If they are going to do this ... move the iconic Greyhound signs that extend from the current building.
I'm still not crazy about the location or the duplicate terminal expense. Nevertheless, looking at the plan presented, if I'm the DDRB, I'd be concerned about the following:
1. Why is there a solid masonry wall along Houston? In the JRTC orginal plan this was supposed to be an "L" shaped building that would provide some type of pedestrian activity on Houston and Johnson. Now it appears that outside of that particular intersection, the rest of the block will be hostile to the pedestrian.
2. Will this terminal have a cafe or something for waiting room passengers to get a quick meal, purchase a magazine, etc.? If so, where is it located and why doesn't it have access to the exterior with outdoor seating to provide some street life on this block?
3. Is this a bus depot for just Greyhound or multiple bus carriers?
With all of this said, I hope the council and mayor's office find a way to delay this thing until some final decision is made on the convention center issue. It will be ashame to have JTA build this thing next to Adams Street only to have Mayor Brown announce the convention center will be rebuilt next to the Hyatt. This pretty much locks us into an expensive poorly developed and thoughtout intermodal center site plan. Given Jacksonville's history, ending up with something half ass, yet with Taj Mahal costs, wouldn't come as a suprise.
Who is responsible for this design presentation? Is it part and parcel of JTA's overall plan or did Greyhound management buy in to this mess already?
Greyhound would be irresponsible if they did not have their operations group completely vet the entire JTA project and look at options presented by other than the architects of the ivory tower. Greyhound just can't be that shortsighted.
Greyhound is fine with this site. For some reason, I don't think many entities in this town really look at things holisitically and how one decision impacts several other situations that might be outside their area of expertise. Now that I think about it, it's surprising that we're still allowing renderings illustrating infill projects in the downtown area, that don't include the surrounding context.
Quote from: Ralph W on September 28, 2011, 02:17:51 AM
Who is responsible for this design presentation? Is it part and parcel of JTA's overall plan or did Greyhound management buy in to this mess already?
Greyhound would be irresponsible if they did not have their operations group completely vet the entire JTA project and look at options presented by other than the architects of the ivory tower. Greyhound just can't be that shortsighted.
Well this design looks NOTHING like the original design displayed by JTA. This is probably a Greyhound thing. Lake probably has a shot of that rendering somewhere.
This was the old one. I'm not crazy about the old design architecturally but it does appear to engage the pedestrian and stimulate more foot traffic than the new design.
Old Design
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-PQqehebaVJU/TiDJ1sNgCsI/AAAAAAAAFPM/GBhylRicBL4/s800/JRTC-Intercity-BusModule.jpg)
New Design
(http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/storyimages/29934.jpg)
SHORT SIGHTED! If the DDRB allows this independent station to be built as part of a multi-station plan disguised as a Transportation Center they're just plain SHORT SIGHTED. JTA and FDOT are the regional leaders of dumbing down the city politic and the general populous.
Folks as we've shown over and over again, a true Transportation Center is a one stop shop for all of your surface transportation needs. Scattering this thing all over LaVilla is the antithesis of what a JRTC should be. Just imagine transferring from Amtrak to bus in the middle of the night hiking 6 blocks across LaVilla. A Transportation Center should have all carriers in the same location, ONE WAITING ROOM, ONE TICKETING AREA, ONE BAGGAGE ROOM, this allows each carrier to benefit the other with transfer passengers. A true JRTC would also allow each carrier to share the expenses of terminal upkeep. Once they dilute the crowds by scattering separate waiting rooms around the neighborhood, no one piece of this station menagerie will be able to support the many sundry services, gift shops, restaurants and news stands.
JTA DEMONSTRATES ONCE AGAIN WHY A HIGHWAY BUILDER SHOULD NEVER BE ALLOWED TO RUN A MASS TRANSIT SYSTEM.
JTA is misleading the City, the DDRB and the City Council to buy into yet another disastrous plan. Once we pull the trigger on this, we have killed any semblance of a real Transportation Center. Someone needs to file legal action against this rogue gang and tie this up until JTA agrees to wait until the Prime Osborn is vacated by the Convention Center people. At that point we could use the already existing grand old railroad terminal as a single station for all.
Who is on the DDRB? Can we get any facts in the hands of of these people? Just as I tried to stop the Skyway, I'm predicting no better results from the JRTC, this nonsense needs to stop.
OCKLAWAHA
DDRB Meeting Information
Meeting Times and Staff Contacts
The DDRB meets at 2 p.m. on the last Thursday of each month in the Police & Fire Pension Building, 1 West Adams St., Suite 200. Contact Jim Klement, Redevelopment Coordinator, at (904) 630-2689 or at jklement@coj.net to confirm meeting dates and times, questions, or placement on the agenda.
DDRB Members
Chair - Andy Sikes, Baptist Health - Urban Planner Representative
Vice-Chair - Timothy Miller, AIA, ELM - Downtown Property Owner Representative
Secretary - Montasser (Monty) M. Selim, Urban Planner Representative
James F. Bailey, Jr., Bailey Publishing and Communications, Inc. - Downtown Property Owner Representative
John A. Fischer, AIA, Danis Construction - Architect Representative
Christopher D. Flagg, RLA, ASLA, Flagg Design Studio, LLC - Landscape Architect Representative
Jonathan R. Garza, Garza Constructors, Inc. - Contractor/Developer/ Realtor Representative
Logan Rink, Design Cooperative, LLC - Downtown Property Owner Representative
Roland Udenze, Haskell Architects and Engineers - Architect Representative
http://www.coj.net/Departments/Jacksonville-Economic-Development-Commission/Downtown-Development/Downtown-Development-Review-Board-(DDRB)-Meeting-I.aspx
Quote from: thelakelander on September 28, 2011, 12:23:31 AM
I'm still not crazy about the location or the duplicate terminal expense. Nevertheless, looking at the plan presented, if I'm the DDRB, I'd be concerned about the following:
1. Why is there a solid masonry wall along Houston? In the JRTC original plan this was supposed to be an "L" shaped building that would provide some type of pedestrian activity on Houston and Johnson. Now it appears that outside of that particular intersection, the rest of the block will be hostile to the pedestrian.
The wall is for safety purposes, Greyhound uses angle parking spaces for their coaches, which forces them to back out. Secondly, Greyhound Corporation is responsible enough to realize that with a sepparate station, they won't have the traffic count to make leasing retail space attractive. Quote2. Will this terminal have a cafe or something for waiting room passengers to get a quick meal, purchase a magazine, etc.? If so, where is it located and why doesn't it have access to the exterior with outdoor seating to provide some street life on this block?
As a cost cutting action Greyhound has closed most of the old Post House Cafes, that once occupied station space. Here in Jacksonville, they retain a small snack counter not unlike the ones in the Target Stores. Again, there is just not enough traffic on Greyhound alone to warrant a full service restaurant. Quote3. Is this a bus depot for just Greyhound or multiple bus carriers?
Mike Blaylock told me it is really for everyone, then said the other carriers could use the 'other' station. This is doublespeak for "It's just a Greyhound Station, please allow us to obfuscate the truth." QuoteWith all of this said, I hope the council and mayor's office find a way to delay this thing until some final decision is made on the convention center issue. It will be a shame to have JTA build this thing next to Adams Street only to have Mayor Brown announce the convention center will be rebuilt next to the Hyatt. This pretty much locks us into an expensive poorly developed and thought out inter-modal center site plan. Given Jacksonville's history, ending up with something half ass, yet with Taj Mahal costs, wouldn't come as a suprise.
This is an excellent chance for the Mayor to be bold, take a stand, and insist on this being done right.
QuoteThe wall is for safety purposes, Greyhound uses angle parking spaces for their coaches, which forces them to back out. Secondly, Greyhound Corporation is responsible enough to realize that with a sepparate station, they won't have the traffic count to make leasing retail space attractive.
I understand from a functional standpoint of why the wall is there. However, from a pedestrian scale standpoint, that entire block facing Houston Street becomes permanent dead space and void of any decent streetside activity. Ideally, the goal within an urban area such as downtown would be to shield off such a large service apron with some sort of building frontage. For example, if the old terminal was used, a significant portion of operations could take place in the surface parking lot behind the building, which could also be masked long term with a plaza or support development facing Bay Street. Thus, you stimulate foot traffic on the streets while also buffering this pedestrian scale synergy from bus service operations.
QuoteAs a cost cutting action Greyhound has closed most of the old Post House Cafes, that once occupied station space. Here in Jacksonville, they retain a small snack counter not unlike the ones in the Target Stores. Again, there is just not enough traffic on Greyhound alone to warrant a full service restaurant.
So, based on your replies above, this building will result in another fairly permanent dead block of pedestrian scale activity downtown. Urban pedestrian scale vibrancy is a direct result of clustering complementing uses within a compact setting. By spreading facilities out across multiple blocks, the success rate for supporting retail uses takes a negative hit, which then results in facilities like this, just simply not offering the services one would expect in a vibrant downtown setting.
This method of planning, approving and developing individual infill projects that don't stimulate pedestrian scale activity along their borders or synergy with the surrounding context, essentially goes against the idea of downtown become a vibrant pedestrian scale environment. What we basically have is another county courthouse situation. Outside of the front entrance, you've got 3.5 blocks of sidewalk frontage that will be permanent dead space at the pedestrian scale.
This type of situation can be easily resolved by looking at and evaluating projects from a holistic level. For example, this greyhound facility design should not be approved on its own. If its truly a part of a intermodal center, the design of the entire complex and its desired impact on the adjacent blocks should come into question. If we do this with all individual public and private sector projects that come up for approval in downtown, half of the struggles we face towards creating a decent downtown environment will go away as it develops out.
Quote from: thelakelander on September 28, 2011, 09:33:42 AM
DDRB Meeting Information
Meeting Times and Staff Contacts
The DDRB meets at 2 p.m. on the last Thursday of each month in the Police & Fire Pension Building, 1 West Adams St., Suite 200. Contact Jim Klement, Redevelopment Coordinator, at (904) 630-2689 or at jklement@coj.net to confirm meeting dates and times, questions, or placement on the agenda.
DDRB Members
Chair - Andy Sikes, Baptist Health - Urban Planner Representative
Vice-Chair - Timothy Miller, AIA, ELM - Downtown Property Owner Representative
Secretary - Montasser (Monty) M. Selim, Urban Planner Representative
James F. Bailey, Jr., Bailey Publishing and Communications, Inc. - Downtown Property Owner Representative
John A. Fischer, AIA, Danis Construction - Architect Representative
Christopher D. Flagg, RLA, ASLA, Flagg Design Studio, LLC - Landscape Architect Representative
Jonathan R. Garza, Garza Constructors, Inc. - Contractor/Developer/ Realtor Representative
Logan Rink, Design Cooperative, LLC - Downtown Property Owner Representative
Roland Udenze, Haskell Architects and Engineers - Architect Representative
http://www.coj.net/Departments/Jacksonville-Economic-Development-Commission/Downtown-Development/Downtown-Development-Review-Board-(DDRB)-Meeting-I.aspx
I know one of them and I'm sure that they are both great guys, but it should be noted that neither of the DDRB members listed as "urban planner representative" is a member of the AICP or even the American Planning Association. Downtown might be better off if planners had been actually involved with it.
Stormwater retention in DT? Another reason why we should be looking at this stuff holistically. If multiple properties are going to have to include stormwater retention, we should be looking at replicating the Brooklyn Park concept somewhere in LaVilla. My guess is that the Greyhound stormwater retention will end of as another suburban pond with a chain link fence around it.
QuoteDOWNTOWN DEVELOPMENT REVIEW BOARD
CONCEPTUAL REVIEW APPLICATION 2011-012
SEPTEMBER 29, 2011
GENERAL INFORMATION[/u]
The Jacksonville Regional Transportation Center (JRTC) Greyhound Terminal is proposed to be developed in the Lavilla District of Downtown Jacksonville. The proposed development will compliment both intra and intercity transportation connectivity systems planned for the City as referenced in the Downtown Jacksonville Master Plan and Downtown Vision Plan. The proposed Greyhound commercial bus terminal replaces the existing facility presently located at 10 Pearl Street, between Water Street and Forsyth Street. The applicant previously submitted the Jacksonville Regional Transportation Center and received approval; the approval also included the redevelopment of the existing Skyway and associated new building as Phase I. The development has not moved forward as of this date due to funding issues.
The proposed JRTC Greyhound Terminal is now positioned to move forward and is referenced as Phase 1. The previously approved Jacksonville Regional Transportation Center (DDRB 2008-005) received conceptual and final approval at the December 17, 2009 DDRB meeting. The request for conceptual approval of the JRTC Greyhound Terminal represents a more detailed plan of development within the Jacksonville Regional Transportation Center Master Plan.
The request of conceptual approval for the proposed project located between Adams Street and Houston Street, and west of Johnson Street; includes the following activities:
- One story 36 ft height, Greyhound Terminal building - 10,538 Square Ft.
- Nine active loading bus slips on site
- Ten bus long term parking spaces on site
- Nine employee parking spaces on site
- Eleven on street customer parking places on Houston Street
- Storm water retention on the eastern portion of the site, east of Stuart Street and north of Houston Street
- Drop off/taxi area on Johnson Street
Some interesting notes from the applicationQuote3. Entrances
This criterion requires at least one pedestrian entrance door on each building elevation facing a street. The development consists of a new one story bus terminal building and the associated commercial bus circulation movements and passenger loading and unloading. The proposed project provides pedestrian client access to front of the building, facing Johnson Street, and notes that access has not been provided to the building form the Houston Street and Adams Street frontages. The applicant has indicated that entrances are minimized so as to address security, monitoring, and safety considerations. Additionally, the design of the building encourages general public access through controlled and monitored locations at the front of the building facing Johnson Street.
In summary, the development will require a deviation from the DDRB for the terminal building to not provide entrances for Adams Street and Houston Street frontages, prior to final approval to be in compliance with this guideline.
Just my two cents but from an urban planning perspective, one would wonder if there is an alternative solution out there that would allow for some pedestrian interaction of side streets and more on Johnson Street, while also meeting the security concerns of JTA?
QuoteDDRB STAFF RECOMMENDATION
Based on the foregoing, DDRB staff recommends conceptual approval for DDRB Application 2011-012, JRTC Greyhound Terminal, subject to the following conditions:
1. Applicant to receive a deviation for the JRTC Greyhound Terminal from Sec. 656.361.13 Entrances criteria to not provide entrances to the building facades with frontage on Houston Street and Adams Street.
2. Applicant to receive a deviation for the JRTC Greyhound Terminal from Sec.656.361.18 Transparency criteria to reduce the transparency requirement from 50% to 0% for the building façade with Adams Street frontage.
3. Applicant to receive a deviation for the JRTC Greyhound Terminal from Sec. 656.361.20 Streetscape Design Standards to provide alternate streetscape design including landscape, hardscape, and lighting deviations for the frontage adjacent to Johnson Street.
Hmmm......You guys will love this Jacksonville beige scheme. Give me a few minutes to upload the renderings.
Disappointing, to be sure.
Color me unimpressed. Looks like another lost opportunity of making a functional need a major asset for the pedestrian scale environment.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Development/JRTC-Greyhound-Terminal/i-Zrnbvmp/0/L/MTMyYjA5MTRjMmM2ZDgyNXwwLjEPag-L.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Development/JRTC-Greyhound-Terminal/i-ffkqBLs/0/L/MTMyYjA5MTRjMmM2ZDgyNXwwLjEPag-L.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Development/JRTC-Greyhound-Terminal/i-tgL4mDL/0/L/MTMyYjA5MTRjMmM2ZDgyNXwwLjEPag-L.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Development/JRTC-Greyhound-Terminal/i-95sjP8k/0/L/MTMyYjA5MTRjMmM2ZDgyNXwwLjEPag-L.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Development/JRTC-Greyhound-Terminal/i-Pn58wM7/0/L/MTMyYjA5MTRjMmM2ZDgyNXwwLjEPag-L.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Development/JRTC-Greyhound-Terminal/i-7Nc4Zb5/0/L/MTMyYjA5MTRjMmM2ZDgyNXwwLjEPag-L.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Development/JRTC-Greyhound-Terminal/i-L693cHx/0/L/MTMyYjA5MTRjMmM2ZDgyNXwwLjEPag-L.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Development/JRTC-Greyhound-Terminal/i-7STg93z/0/L/MTMyYjA5MTRjMmM2ZDgyNXwwLjEPag-L.jpg)
Btw, I like how the office building is still shown on the plan but the bold text pointing it out is excluded.....nice!
Quote from: thelakelander on September 28, 2011, 10:26:30 AM
QuoteThe wall is for safety purposes, Greyhound uses angle parking spaces for their coaches, which forces them to back out. Secondly, Greyhound Corporation is responsible enough to realize that with a separate station, they won't have the traffic count to make leasing retail space attractive.
I understand from a functional standpoint of why the wall is there. However, from a pedestrian scale standpoint, that entire block facing Houston Street becomes permanent dead space and void of any decent streetside activity. Ideally, the goal within an urban area such as downtown would be to shield off such a large service apron with some sort of building frontage. For example, if the old terminal was used, a significant portion of operations could take place in the surface parking lot behind the building, which could also be masked long term with a plaza or support development facing Bay Street. Thus, you stimulate foot traffic on the streets while also buffering this pedestrian scale synergy from bus service operations.
No argument on the stimulation of foot traffic along Houston Street, but with the city blocks being quite small and with angled parking of buses, they'll only have room for 9 loading zones if the wall is built. Any effort to push that wall back to make space for retail will reduce the number of loading zones to aprox. 7, which is smaller then the current station.
Bottom line, the buses need to operate in and out of a single station, with a loading zone behind the P.O.. The station itself would be the P.O. and the 'Grand Ballroom' would become a unified waiting room for bus, rail, Skyway or JTA. Anything short of this is not a "transportation center," in the true sense of the word.
Otherwise a phone call to the DDRB revealed that they are primarily concerned with the architectural design fitting in with the downtown master plan and not wether or not it is truly functional. The gentleman I spoke with told me they see this station as just a small part of the JRTC, and thus it won't really make a difference. Nobody seems to understand what a single point of sale JRTC would do for the viability of the station or viability of the neighborhood. Nobody seems to understand that Greyhound is every bit of 50% of the traffic and thus the success of the center. With more daily passengers then all of the other carriers combined, leaving Greyhound on a remote island finishes any chance we'll have in this generation to do this right the first time.
Imagine the savings to the citizen and city if we didn't have to build ANY new buildings, and make our historic station a one stop location. Had JTA designed the Jacksonville International Airport, we'd be boarding Southwest over at Imeson, Delta would leave from the current airport terminal, while US Air would be at the River City Marketplace. To build just the Southwest Airlines facility over at Imeson would really be just a small part of this airline 'center.' Is it just me or does this sound crazy to anyone else?
Our readers have their work cut out for them, are you also Incredulous? By all means lets get on record at Council, DDRB and any other agency that will listen, to stop this insanity. OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: Ocklawaha on September 28, 2011, 12:13:54 PM
No argument on the stimulation of foot traffic along Houston Street, but with the city blocks being quite small and with angled parking of buses, they'll only have room for 9 loading zones if the wall is built. Any effort to push that wall back to make space for retail will reduce the number of loading zones to aprox. 7, which is smaller then the current station.
I've reviewed the revised site plan for the entire JRTC, which clears up some issues I mentioned earlier.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Development/JRTC-Greyhound-Terminal/i-Zrnbvmp/0/L/MTMyYjA5MTRjMmM2ZDgyNXwwLjEPag-L.jpg)
1. Houston Street, west of Johnson, will become an "operations" area, considering the JTA bus terminal's operations being on the south side of the street.
2. There's no retail in the building because retail will be built in the JTA bus and Skyway/BRT stations on the two blocks between the Greyhound terminal and the convention center.
3. This layout pretty much cements the fact that these guys have no true intention to modify the JRTC's sprawling site plan. Constructing the Greyhound Station in this layout pretty much sets the ball rolling to construct the rest of the JRTC, as is, capital, maintenance cost and end user efficiency be damned.
4. Still no thought/vision has been put into how the JRTC will integrate within the surrounding urban context. At the very least, the overall site plan should be overlayed on top of an existing aerial to give a better perspective of how the location of these uses may impact existing and future private sector development opportunities on surrounding properties.
Be a good time to address the security concerns over at the wide open Rosa Parks Station. Time to wall up the sides and make all those buses back out onto State St. Need special doors with metal detectors and bomb sniffers, too. Hey you! You can't put that bike on the front of the bus. It might have Semtex stuffed in the frame.
I'm reposting this from another thread to help explain why we don't need to blow millions on Greyhound or any other dog of a project. JTA says it must be built the way they designed it because it's a very complex piece of property. Yeah? FLAT! CLEARED! SQUARE! REAL COMPLEX. Next they'll tell you it's the freeway ramps that cause it to be remotely located, also false, there are ramps in and out of I-95, near the historic Jacksonville Terminal Station as well.
SO HERE IT IS FOLKS - THE JTA/FDOT SCHEME
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-Dr7bZNcBI5A/TiDPC-l4p3I/AAAAAAAAFQI/2EHabNXP500/s800/JRTC-AMTRAK.jpg)
A STATION FOR AMTRAK
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-RV7jHh6j_eQ/TiDJ2TcWRgI/AAAAAAAAFPc/binIhPf4m2s/s800/JRTC-OFFICES.jpg)
A "STATION" FOR EMPLOYEES
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-PxOBQpEpbBs/TiDJ1j5txpI/AAAAAAAAFPI/1_rpnwKa_bw/s800/JRTC-BUS.jpg)
A STATION FOR THE SKYWAY
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-XQzNbJWZL74/TiDJ2HYeLyI/AAAAAAAAFPQ/hI2XSX3hf7s/s800/JRTC-JTA-MODULE.jpg)
A STATION FOR THE JTA BUS
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Development/JRTC-Greyhound-Terminal/i-ffkqBLs/0/L/MTMyYjA5MTRjMmM2ZDgyNXwwLjEPag-L.jpg)
AND A STATION FOR GREYHOUND
THE GRAND MJ SCHEME...
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/755529032_uJLK2-M.jpg)
A STATION
OCKLAWAHA
So that's it, then? No other chance of consolidating the sprawl into a more compact complex?
The design is pretty boring and bland. It's too far away from the Jacksonville Terminal. It doesn't even make sense to build this "transportation center" right now since we don't even have any other transit modes right now. By the time we get serious about transit in Jacksonville, the convention center would probably be near the Hyatt and this bus station would be 3 blocks down from the Jacksonville Terminal and then it would be too late. I really think JTA should wait to build this to see what happens with BRT, commuter rail, and streetcars here.
As a practicing planner I'm washing my hands of this one. Barrabbas has left the building.
Here's another reality check. Having one centralized terminal area for all modes saves the taxpayer on capital costs and long term maintenance costs of the overall facility. Retail wise, that clustering of passengers within a compact spot creates the necessary foot traffic density for supporting retail opportunities. By spreading and replicating the same use out over 4 to 5 blocks, you disperse foot traffic, which kills your retail potential. So, if the spread out plan is constructed, forget about this type of activity really taking off after the $180 million publicly funded investment.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/459277296_fs8sL-M.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/459277506_CRLhV-M.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/859216833_gnXc6-M.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/859219027_hC47s-M.jpg)
This situation is really no different than what our entire downtown is today. We don't have the pedestrian level vibrancy residents and city officials desire because we continue to invest, design, approve and construct sprawling concepts in what should be a pedestrian oriented environment. You can't bring the Southside to Downtown and expect things to magically work out. Until we end this practice, it doesn't matter what we place in the downtown area, true revitalization will be difficult, time consuming and expensive to accomplish.
Captions:
Reading Terminal (Philadelphia),
Union Station (DC),
30th Street Station (Philadelphia), and
30th Street Station (Philadelphia) again?
JTA Spokesman: "Damn you MetroJacksonville and your common sence talk!! You're making us look bad!! Quick, put an aerration fountain in the retention pond, maybe that will shut them up!"
Even given the sprawling layout, I see no reason why the JTA busses can't share a space with Greyhound. Or if they are adamant about keeping it separate then at least combine Greyhound with Amtrak!!!!
I'm with most here in that we need to stall this proposal as long as possible and find a way to get Mayor Brown on board and push this thing in the proper direction.
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-fwpIwEyskwo/TiXyt-BEU-I/AAAAAAAAFR8/zDtu5IDm0mA/s800/JRTC-D-ALTERNATE-1.jpg)
Here is an alternative to the sprawling JRTC disaster, of course this would easily cost $130 million less and be far more functional and create street level activity and offer critical mass to retailers... But then saving money or doing anything right isn't exactly JTA's Modus operandi.
OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: Dashing Dan on September 28, 2011, 01:31:36 PM
Captions:
Reading Terminal (Philadelphia),
Union Station (DC),
30th Street Station (Philadelphia), and
30th Street Station (Philadelphia) again?
Yelp. I only went to two past articles. I could pull more examples from across the US but I figured those couple of images were fine for the point.
It's too late now but it might not have been, if there had been an actual planning process that involved actual planners who would have been able to identify and engage stakeholders.
^Dashing Dan, what's the history on this thing? It seems like the JRTC concept has been tossed around at least since the 1970s/80s.
There is a roughly 29 year gap in my firsthand knowledge of planning in Jacksonville, from 1975 to 2004, although I had planner friends who kept me posted through sometime around 1979.
I do know that the current JRTC initiative was jump started in 2004, and that it was a continuation of work that had been done sometime earlier.
Here's a 2001 FTU article that talks a bit about the history.
http://jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/082701/met_7050460.html
The city has been talking about bringing Amtrack downtown since at least 1993. And it looks like even in 2001 both Greyhound and the visitors bureau were talking about placing Greyhound several blocks away from the Prime Osborne. Then as now a big part of the concern was the convention center being located there already.
The concept, probably not this exact configuration, has been in the works at least since the 1970s. This set of former whore houses on Houston Street (on national historic register at the time) was torn down in the late 1970s for a JTA intermodal center that was never built.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/458685278_NxhSa-600x10000.jpg)
From the 2001 Times Union article:
Quote"The bottom line is that multimodal [transit operations] and a convention center don't mix," said Jeff Sachs, managing partner for Strategic Advisory Group. "People who are coming in from out of town want to feel safe and kind of want to feel like an 'island.' All of a sudden you have a multimodal and you have all the people who are locally based and it's kind of like oil and water."
That's pretty chilling.
Nashville has a convention center in the middle of its downtown. Over the past twenty five years the Nashville convention center has done so well that they are now building a new one that will also be downtown. I think the price tag on the new one is $450 million.
To clear the land for each of the two downtown convention center sites, Nashville has had to relocate its Greyhound station both times.
In the Eighties there had been plans to put the Nashville convention center inside the Union Station there, but that idea was rejected because the Union Station in Nashville is not close enough to downtown. Instead they made the Nashville Union Station into an upscale hotel. It hasn't always done well, but I think that it's doing okay right now.
Quote from: Tacachale on September 28, 2011, 02:06:46 PM
Then as now a big part of the concern was the convention center being located there already.
Back in those days, there was no talk about relocating the convention center. Given the current climate, it makes fiscal and operational sense to confirm if its going to stay or not before spending millions that we most likely don't need too for a less than ideal end user friendly set up.
Quote from: Dashing Dan on September 28, 2011, 02:28:18 PM
From the 2001 Times Union article:
Quote"The bottom line is that multimodal [transit operations] and a convention center don't mix," said Jeff Sachs, managing partner for Strategic Advisory Group. "People who are coming in from out of town want to feel safe and kind of want to feel like an 'island.' All of a sudden you have a multimodal and you have all the people who are locally based and it's kind of like oil and water."
That's pretty chilling.
Nashville has a convention center in the middle of its downtown. Over the past twenty five years the Nashville convention center has done so well that they are now building a new one that will also be downtown. I think the price tag on the new one is $450 million.
To clear the land for each of the two downtown convention center sites, Nashville has had to relocate its Greyhound station both times.
In the Eighties there had been plans to put the Nashville convention center inside the Union Station there, but that idea was rejected because the Union Station in Nashville is not close enough to downtown. Instead they made the Nashville Union Station into an upscale hotel. It hasn't always done well, but I think that it's doing okay right now.
To be fair, the quote was about the transit center being IN the convention building, not just near it. I don't know that that's such an off base concern. What's concerning is that ten years later we appear to be pursuing the same line of thinking despite the fact there are discussions of moving the convention center.
Whether or not the transit center would have been in the same building as the convention center, I still don't like the use of the word "island" in that quote.
The convention center in Philadelphia is in more or less the same place as a downtown commuter railroad station (Reading Terminal), and they both fit together fairly well.
There are also plenty of intercity buses (aka "Chinatown Buses") that load and unload very close to the convention center in Philadelphia.
Why can we not have a combined convention and transportation center?? There is certainly enough land for it at the current site to expand the center vertically and horizontally with a garage/skyway/retail/hotel hub across the street. There is built in visibility from the highway and built in mobility options with all of the modes of transportation.
Its killing me that ideas like these aren't being discussed amongst the city and JTA....
Kings avenue garage could then be used for overflow parking for larger events at the convention center....
If only the skyway ran directly between the Prime Osborn and the Kings Avenue Garage.
First you'd have to change at the Central skyway station, and then you'd have to walk from the Kings Avenue skyway station to the Kings Avenue garage.
That's a missed opportunity for sure.
Here are some images I threw together a few years back...
Just ignore the early transportation center (in gray) along Forsyth.
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/asonj23/Google%20Earth%20Snapshots/LaVillaTOD-3.jpg)
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/asonj23/Google%20Earth%20Snapshots/PrimeOsborneConventionCenterProp-1.jpg)
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y74/asonj23/Google%20Earth%20Snapshots/PrimeOsborneConventionCenterProposa.jpg)
Quote from: thelakelander on September 28, 2011, 02:27:39 PM
The concept, probably not this exact configuration, has been in the works at least since the 1970s. This set of former whore houses on Houston Street (on national historic register at the time) was torn down in the late 1970s for a JTA intermodal center that was never built.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/458685278_NxhSa-600x10000.jpg)
Comparing those buildings with The Doll House, I'd have to say that prostitution must have been much more lucrative in the past than stripping is in the present.
Also let the record show that in the above post, Dashing Dan is running away from the whore houses on Houston Street.
I agree Dan, the idea of arriving in some distant city on a freaking island is scary indeed. Lake is right though that the people holding the checkbook call the shots, since JTA nor FDOT has never had an original thought in their combined history, we are the collective recipients of a classic FUBAR plan.
Nashville's Union Station is at Broadway and 11Th Street, which is about 6-8 blocks from the center of downtown. I've been through there on the train back in it's glory days. Funny how Nashville is highly successful with it's convention center and ours is a shambles on a true island, but then we put ours more then 6-8 blocks from the center of downtown. Stupid is as stupid does? (http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2014/2537395240_f45c481fc7_o.jpg)
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2220/2434079868_470e5bf3fd.jpg)
(http://www.trainweb.org/KSONS/Assets/PaulDGCS.jpg)
N.U.S.
In simplest terms, please can anyone explain exactly WHY this sprawl ing Mega ranch must be entertained if it extends north of Forsyth ??
The only reason is they're lobbying for FREE MONEY and the more the merrier. Why waste $100 million when we can waste $180 million.
The current Greyhound Station doesn't need a penny of public money, in fact it is a tax paying citizen of downtown and one of the only 'islands' of downtown activity 24/7. Seems reason enough to move them out, we can't have that kind of activity going on when the other city streets are dead.
DDRB told me, "Don't worry, Greyhound is just a insignificant piece of the JRTC." I'm sorry but the JRTC is a three legged stool built on Amtrak, Greyhound and JTA, pull out one of those legs and the whole project becomes dysfunctional. But JTA will say, it's not disfunctional, it's the first phase of a wonderful new neighborhood of stations.
Bottom line? JTA doesn't have a clue how to design a transportation center. FDOT is pushing this for their own reasons which parallel to JTA'S and as Tallahassee has recently shown they don't give a damn about Jacksonville. If city council or the mayor have a lick of sense they'll slam dunk this project until the convention center is out of the way.
OCKLAWAHA
JTA approves plan for new Greyhound station at Prime Osborn Center
But efforts to create a major transportation hub are dropped for now.
QuoteJacksonville Transportation Authority board members approved plans Thursday to build a new Greyhound bus station on four parcels of land donated by the city in June near the Prime Osborn Convention Center. They also dropped immediate efforts to seek another nine city properties for creation of a major transportation hub.
Forgoing - for the moment - that second, larger part of the plan followed Mayor Alvin Brown's July statement that he needed more information about it. There also was opposition by some City Council members who were concerned the deal could become a money-maker for JTA.
The portion approved unanimously on Thursday will cost between $3.5 million and $5 million and construction is expected to begin by the middle of 2012, JTA spokeswoman Shannon Eller said.
The money will come from state and federal grants the agency and the Florida Department of Transportation are currently pursuing, she said. But the agency is ready to advance money to complete construction on time and then seek reimbursement from grants, she added.
Brown must still sign the deal. He issued a statement Thursday saying he will "review this one to ensure that the project is financially viable and that the contract is in the best interests of the taxpayers." Brown said he continues to have concerns about the larger, regional center proposed by JTA.
Full Article: http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2011-09-29/story/jta-approves-plan-new-greyhound-station-prime-osborn-center
^That might be encouraging if there were any evidence he had capable people advising him. But recent developments make that seem unlikely.
So they are going to start 1/4 of the trans project to drop 3/4 of the project, when the entire plan sucked the whole time? So now we are moving the station out of the core...... patchwork/ anyways I really don't care because the whole thing including the terminal needs to be reconsidered. This transportation center would be too suburban even for the southside.
Have a plan and a good one and go through with it!
JTA already owns a good chunk of land over there....they don't need the other 9 parcels to build the hub....m,aybe this is a sign that they are retooling the center to be more compact....unfortunately, that will just leave Greyhound off as an island
Doubt it. It's just a sign that they don't have the necessary support to ram the entire thing down the public's throats at the moment.
This whole fiasco is pretty crazy. There's been no discussion of what happens with the existing Greyhound site, no true public vetting of the entire JRTC plan, no discussion of if the entire thing should be delayed until a permanent position is taken with the Prime Osborn. Quite frankly, I simply don't understand the need to move forward anything on this site immediately and fronting money to do so (getting those federal grants aren't a given), when looking at the complex set of still unanswered questions. Who's going to shrivel up and die if we delay this entire thing a few months until its thoroughly vetted and holistically planned with the rest of downtown? This whole thing is quite puzzling.
Again, IF the prime osborn III center is a major piece of this puzzle,
WHY must any new REGIONAL multimodal transportation hub stretch beyond Myrtle, Forsyth and Lee streets. ??
Have the designers / planners / dreamers "deciderers" on this never traveled!?
THANKYOU MJ for putting together such comprehensive studies of how some actual cities do get it right.
With regard to what we may see sprout out of the ground on Houston/johnson streets...Not much of what has been revealed seems pedestrian friendly, thusly impractical. Fwiw
Back to the drawing board. Imho
Nothing puzzling about it, it's the same inept planner at JTA that brought us the Skyway, bus lanes for hourly buses and the ridiculous, inaccessible and thus empty, Southside Parking Garage.
Don't underestimate the power of JTA to screw us out of a true transportation center for the next hundred years. Really? Yeah, take away Greyhound and you pull one of the legs (Amtrak, JTA, Greyhound) off of this three legged stool. Might as well give up on us ever joining the REAL cities out there unless we can stop this nonsense.
OCKLAWAHA
QuoteMight as well give up on us ever joining the REAL cities out there unless we can stop this nonsense.
Can you stop it? What is your plan to stop it? I am all for a good fight, but for the last 8 years of the lost decade, all I hear about is talk, talk, talk, how about some action to make it happen? We need more action on this board to make things happen, you want the 1504 to return to the rails, make it happen. You want a real transportation center, make it happen.
As Nike says, Just Do IT!