Joel McEachin put the number out today at 533. That is the current number of demolitions in the neighborhood since the neighborhood was declared a Nationally Recognized Historic District. That is also almost 30% of the historic fabric of this neighborhood.
We have the addresses of the properties and will use this information as we assemmble the results of our survey.
and people were trying to say it was less.... ::)
that is terrible to hear!
Is there a potential that that high of a number jeopardizes our designation?
Quote from: avs on September 14, 2011, 05:57:54 PM
Is there a potential that that high of a number jeopardizes our designation?
I'd like to know this as well. There has to be a breaking point. I'd imagine at 30%, it can't be far off.
But then again, it's not like having that historic neighborhood moniker has made any difference with this stuff. Especially since the neighborhood is located in demo-happy Jacksonville. Seems like anything goes.
If the city doesn't come up with a solid plan to start turning a lot of these problems around (and actually stick to it), I fear that Springfield will slip into the abyss. I'm not holding my breathe though. Like I said, its Jacksonville.
Stephen: It will take a bit, but yes. The years of the demolition are noted in the COA on the chart.
Pee: No one should seek out the NPS and see if we have lost too much since designation to be de-designated. The less they know the better.
Propertly and well used redevelopment funds are a wonderful thing. See my metrojacksonville article on "The East Village."
Also: when were COAs the norm? There appears on the doc to be only 1 demolition b/w 1985 - 1991.
I believe that while the various historic Districts are older, like Springfield being designated in 1987 (Riverside sometime before that?) the laws governing things like COA's were not passed until 1990/ 1991. At least that is the date I see associated with them. On the list, the oldest COA is 1991.
Other areas with Historic Designation have indeed at least been placed on a "watch list" of sorts. I think we have been lucky not to have had that happen with 30% plus of the structures gone and most of those lost since the Historic Designation.
Having the historic designation is VERY important to my family and many people I have sold homes to over the years. One of the reasons we made the decision to sell our house in Maryland and move to SPR is because it is a historic district, and there is supposed to be value and protection in that. We would not have moved here if SPR had just been a neighborhood of older homes.
The city has jeopardized all of out investments allowing this to happen. 30% is a LARGE number. Heck, I would be fine paying a little more in property taxes if the money would go back into a SPR fund that would offer facade grants or something. SPR residents have to make the city understand we value our neighborhood, what it has been, and what it can be again.
Does the list provided by Joel include breakdowns as to those homes that were salvageable or not?
^ no.
Of course that is the point of contention: savable.
Quote from: avs on September 15, 2011, 08:04:37 AM
Having the historic designation is VERY important to my family and many people I have sold homes to over the years. One of the reasons we made the decision to sell our house in Maryland and move to SPR is because it is a historic district, and there is supposed to be value and protection in that. We would not have moved here if SPR had just been a neighborhood of older homes.
The city has jeopardized all of out investments allowing this to happen. 30% is a LARGE number. Heck, I would be fine paying a little more in property taxes if the money would go back into a SPR fund that would offer facade grants or something. SPR residents have to make the city understand we value our neighborhood, what it has been, and what it can be again.
Oh I agree. It certainly makes the neighborhood more attractive to potential buyers & people who have already invested their time/money in it. But obviously that alone hasn't been enough. Its good that its technically historic though.
I think really in order for Springfield to save itself, everyone in the neighborhood has to get on the same page & really embrace a niche (having a tug-o-war match between residents & organizations the last decade certainly hasn't helped). And the city HAS to go along with it too.
Now, I don't know what that niche is. But I wouldn't look towards places like Riverside or Avondale for the answer. Let them do their own thing, Springfield do theirs. But I think the community gardens, some livestock, fish farming & the whole urban farming/self-sustaining movement in general could be something that would certainly set it apart. And also embracing any kind of startup that wants to open in the area on a shoestring budget. Make it stupid-cheap & they'll come.
At this point, that's really the kind of stuff ya'll need. Don't worry about chain stores & that Starbucks just yet. Keep Springfield weird. ;D
^^^
+1
I'm about to get off track a little and talk about Springfield's need to carve out a niche.
Regarding demolitions: Historic Designation is critical to this neighborhood. Way too many houses and commercial buildings have been demolished. There are may more that have been neglected and need love. Let's stop worrying about the exact number of demolitions, agree that it's been waaay too many, and follow Preservation SOS lead in trying to protect what we have left.
Following on PSUs comments above:
Yep, there's no rational basis for believing Starbucks or any other upscale chain is going to move to Main Street Springfield any time soon.
While I agree with keeping Springfield wacky and wonderful, Austin already has the claim to weird (you knew that ;)) - we do need our own distinct identity. We are NOT San Marco or Avondale or even 5 Points, and never will be.
Definitely should leverage what Sustainable Springfield has started with community gardens and other educational programs; carry on SACARC's support of pets. Help neighbors and save houses like Preservation SOS, and help businesses like SAMBA. Clean up alleys and abandoned buildings like the block captains. Love the parks like the Springfield Improvement Association.
I have lived in Riverside, in Avondale, and in San Marco. Springfielders are passionate and fight about a lot of things, but I promise you that no other neighborhood comes together and physically works as hard on community projects as Springfield does. And there is no other neighborhood that is as social, welcoming and inclusive as Springfield is.
Maybe we need to think bohemian, as someone suggested over on mySpringfield.
According to Wikipedia:
"Bohemianism is the practice of an unconventional lifestyle, often in the company of like-minded people,....involving musical, artistic or literary pursuits. .. .This use of the word bohemian first appeared in the English language in the 19th century[1] to describe the non-traditional lifestyles of marginalized and impoverished artists, writers, journalists, musicians, and actors in major European cities. Bohemians were associated with unorthodox or anti-establishment political or social viewpoints, which were often expressed through free love, frugality, and voluntary poverty."
Cheap, unique, working together to move forward. Getting off the grid a little more. I'd love to hear other folk's thoughts on how Springfield should identify, and market itself.
Well...you guys will recall for years I've been saying 1/3'rd of the neighborhood was demolished. Turn out my well-observed educated guess was right on the money. And before that, Stephen had 3 businesses up and running to generate the bohemian arts type business you're referring to. That was 2003, nearly 10 years ago. SPAR ran everyone out.
SPAR does not have the power or authority to run everyone out of the neighborhood. SPAR is not a governmental entity; it is a nonprofit organization that recently appears to be working hard to reach out to the neighborhood.
There are many people who have moved to Springfield in the past couple of years, after the fall of SRG and the resignation of Louise Despain, who will support a variety of businesses that may not have been supported by some of the residents who have moved on.
We need to look forward.
Learn from the mistakes of the past. Save and celebrate the historic houses that are left - we have lost too many, but we still have more 100 year old houses than any other Jacksonville historic district. Patronize the businesses we have. If you live in Springfield and have always wanted to own your own shop, do it! I know a few landlords who are more than reasonable.
I think the Bohemian slant totally suits the current residents of SPR. All the things you mentioned, Miss Fixit, fit with the residents who have moved here over the past several years. Local businesses with a similar slant will do well with that slant and the current residents they will look to for patronage.
Sustainable Springfield will certainly be pushing for more of the things in SPR that we have been doing as we also recognize that it adds to the uniqueness of SPR.
The demolitions have to stop and we have to push this neighborhood over the next hump.
Agree with everyone.
Bohemian. Including: retro, thrift/vintage/antique, Mom and Pop.
How there is not many antique and salvage shops in Jacksonville is beyond me, particularly in our area. The LA area has a butt-load, and Cali is young compared to Florida.
Not to pick at a scab, but SPAR used it's connection to code enforcement to shut businesses down. It was quite a common practice. Let's hope we are in a better place now.
Quote from: iloveionia on September 15, 2011, 12:45:35 PM
Agree with everyone.
Bohemian. Including: retro, thrift/vintage/antique, Mom and Pop.
How there is not many antique and salvage shops in Jacksonville is beyond me, particularly in our area. The LA area has a butt-load, and Cali is young compared to Florida.
Reading this, I just had a 'Sanford and Son' flashback.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WqazleR3FE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WqazleR3FE)
Quote from: vicupstate on September 15, 2011, 03:19:09 PM
Quote from: iloveionia on September 15, 2011, 12:45:35 PM
Agree with everyone.
Bohemian. Including: retro, thrift/vintage/antique, Mom and Pop.
How there is not many antique and salvage shops in Jacksonville is beyond me, particularly in our area. The LA area has a butt-load, and Cali is young compared to Florida.
Reading this, I just had a 'Sanford and Son' flashback.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WqazleR3FE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WqazleR3FE)
That's enough out of you, ya big dummy!
Given its very definition, I don't see how one can market the "Bohemian lifestyle." But if we can just preserve the structure that supports it (read: historic fabric, unique individuals, passion, tolerance) I think it will grow just fine on its own.
Basically, quit trying to disinfect your compost heap and you'll be rewarded with healthy living things.
Quote from: Miss Fixit on September 15, 2011, 12:22:22 PM
SPAR does not have the power or authority to run everyone out of the neighborhood. SPAR is not a governmental entity; it is a nonprofit organization that recently appears to be working hard to reach out to the neighborhood.
There are many people who have moved to Springfield in the past couple of years, after the fall of SRG and the resignation of Louise Despain, who will support a variety of businesses that may not have been supported by some of the residents who have moved on.
We need to look forward.
Learn from the mistakes of the past. Save and celebrate the historic houses that are left - we have lost too many, but we still have more 100 year old houses than any other Jacksonville historic district. Patronize the businesses we have. If you live in Springfield and have always wanted to own your own shop, do it! I know a few landlords who are more than reasonable.
I hope you don't actually believe that. Nowhere near that simple.
Quote from: hooplady on September 15, 2011, 03:54:24 PM
Given its very definition, I don't see how one can market the "Bohemian lifestyle."
this here's the united states. we can sell
ANYTHING![/i]
(seriously, there's even at least one--rather thick--magazine devoted to having a simple, uncluttered life)
ChrisUFGator, it actually IS "simple." That doesn't mean a lot of hard work won't be involved, or that it won't take a long time to achieve results.
I'm just plain sick and tired of hearing about how much SPAR sucks. Really doesn't matter whether they do or not. SPAR is not in a position to prevent me from engaging in any legal activity of my choice, including running a business in Springfield.
At this point, people who have nothing better to do than complain about SPAR and Springfield are more harmful to Springfield than SPAR is.
Quote from: Miss Fixit on September 16, 2011, 03:41:39 PM
ChrisUFGator, it actually IS "simple." That doesn't mean a lot of hard work won't be involved, or that it won't take a long time to achieve results.
I'm just plain sick and tired of hearing about how much SPAR sucks. Really doesn't matter whether they do or not. SPAR is not in a position to prevent me from engaging in any legal activity of my choice, including running a business in Springfield.
At this point, people who have nothing better to do than complain about SPAR and Springfield are more harmful to Springfield than SPAR is.
This thread, by its very nature, is about the past, and about the mistakes that allowed 1/3 of a national historic district to be demolished. If you don't know from whence you came, it is often difficult to determine where you're going. So, in that sense, and especially considering some of these types of activities have continued right up until recently, I think it is important to bear in mind how we got here. Thanks to SPAR, Springfield may well lose its historic designation. If that doesn't bother you, then by all means that's your business, though personally I find it shocking.
In the meantime, as you noted, we are free to do whatever legal activity we so choose, and despite their best efforts, talking about SPAR's misdeeds is not illegal. So I'll continue doing what I see fit, thank you very much, and you of course are welcome to do likewise. Complaining about complaining is still complaining, and hardly secures any moral high ground. If these threads bother you that badly, you could always ask the gentleman next to you to remove the gun from your head and cease forcing you to read them.
Well said Miss Fixit!
Quote from: fsujax on September 16, 2011, 03:55:39 PM
Well said Miss Fixit!
She sat idly by while SPAR destroyed 1/3 of a National Historic District, and when someone says so she rebukes them for their alleged negativity. And her rebuke is well said, huh? Where was this rebuking when all of it was going on? I agree she has a mastery for words, it's a shame they weren't directed at the proper parties at the correct time, or things may have turned out different for Springfield.
chris, i usually like and agree with what you have to say, but you're beïng unnecessarily vitriolic here.
Quote from: KuroiKetsunoHana on September 16, 2011, 04:08:10 PM
chris, i usually like and agree with what you have to say, but you're beïng unnecessarily vitriolic here.
Not vitriolic. More like bemused.
I pointed out what SPAR was doing from the beginning, and have received countless lectures from every imaginable source about 'negativity' and how what I've said is in some vague and unexplained way somehow hurting the neighborhood. Of course, I was demonstrably proven to be right all along, and the commentary and information on this website was not only never harmful, but actually suceeded in bringing about a sea change that has had lasting and positive repercussions for Springfield. Frankly, you'd think she'd be thanking me. Along with Joe and Gloria, and Stephen Dare. Were it not for these efforts, the same group would still be doing the same things.
Unfortunately, the legacy of demolitions that occurred is not erasable.
The neighborhood has struggled to put an exact number on it, which we know now is 500+. And we know exactly what group is responsible. During the entire decade prior to SPAR's formation and subsequent merger to form SPAR Council, there was 1 demolition in 10 years. Compared to 500+ demolitions during their reign.
So is Miss Fixit arguing that represents what, exactly? A statistical anomaly? A mere coincidence? Come on...
Pardon me if I'm not up for more SPAR apologism, at my expense, from a SPAR member.
That's not harsh, or vitriolic. It just happens to be the truth.
SPAR isn't a government entity, but didn't COJ send everyone looking for a COA to SPAR first?
CUFG, I don't believe we have met; I don't know you so I hope my impression of you is false, but you certainly seem to be one of the most bitter, singularly focused individuals I have encountered (electronically, that is).You obviously know very little about me. I DO know Joe and Gloria and Stephen and I am positive that they will all agree that I am not one to "sit idly by". I am not a SPAR member. My relationship with Springfield is brief, only two years, but during that time I believe I have been much more involved than you have in fighting demolitions and working to improve the neighborhood. We all know the history and I agree that history is important. The demolitions in Springfield are a disgrace and must not continue. The lack of business on Main Street is shocking. But your stories are old and tired; you never seem to have anything new to say. Yes, I know, you've advised that you will not shut up. I just need to start ignoring you like everyone else does.
Quote from: Miss Fixit on September 16, 2011, 10:04:56 PM
CUFG, I don't believe we have met; I don't know you so I hope my impression of you is false, but you certainly seem to be one of the most bitter, singularly focused individuals I have encountered (electronically, that is).You obviously know very little about me. I DO know Joe and Gloria and Stephen and I am positive that they will all agree that I am not one to "sit idly by". I am not a SPAR member. My relationship with Springfield is brief, only two years, but during that time I believe I have been much more involved than you have in fighting demolitions and working to improve the neighborhood. We all know the history and I agree that history is important. The demolitions in Springfield are a disgrace and must not continue. The lack of business on Main Street is shocking. But your stories are old and tired; you never seem to have anything new to say. Yes, I know, you've advised that you will not shut up. I just need to start ignoring you like everyone else does.
You don't know whether I've been involved or not, if you've been here less than 2 years. If that's the case, I have a decade's worth of experience with Springfield over your short time, which makes your indictment all the more misplaced. Moreover, they're not my 'stories,' SPAR's refusal to support the mothballing legislation, carwash appeal, etc., were within the last year, and those certainly aren't 'stories' at all much less of my creation, are they? Neither is the cold fact that SPAR allowed 500+ properties, or a full third of a national historic district, to be demolished. Which of course just became known this month. This week in fact. But listening to you, I suppose that's ancient history?
I'm afraid the facts simply don't line up with your narrative.
Again, if you don't like my commets, then feel free to tell that gentleman next to you to remove that gun from your head so you can stop reading them. Why would you expect anyone to 'shut up' merely because you disagree? You must have an awfully high opinion of your opinion. You're entitled to yours, be it as it is based on the short time you've been here, and I'm certainly entitled to mine. So unless I'm missing something, and I'm relatively sure I'm not, then it appears at this point that we simply agree to disagree.
Or don't agree. I don't think we're going to change either of our minds at this point either way, do you? Of course I'm not acting like a 6 year old and threatening to 'ignore' you or expecting you to 'shut up.' In fact I've said from my first response that you should immediately have that gun pointed at your head surgically removed so you can ignore my posts if you so desire. Not sure why you think that would bother me, a quick review of the record reveals I first suggested it.
In fact, let me go so far as to say I'd be honored.
CUFG, where is your anger for the City of Jacksonville, who is tasked by municipal law to preserve historic districts? As a legal mind, you know about that. There are 500+ houses gone. It’s awful (although some of those are probably post-fire demos.) Still, it is the City who issued all those demo permits. SPAR has no power to demolish a house. While SPAR didn't fight the demos in the recent past like they should have, and even encouraged some of them to, in my opinion, their shame, it is the City of Jacksonville who is ultimately responsible for this mess, and continues to be.
Our City government has very little to no vision or interest in preserving our history. With all the historic homes and structures surrounding the urban core, we could have been a huge historic tourism destination had it been properly managed with brick streets, street cars, and little mom & pop shops. Savannah and Charleston would have been jealous. But, in typical Jacksonville style, they paved paradise and put up a parking lot.
At least one current council member is actively trying to destroy even more, although he calls his proactive insertion into the free market of not allowing the preservation of what’s already there “not interfering with free enterprise.†Huh? Go figure that one out and comment on it.
Nearly every SPAR post you write is the same stuff, just recycled and repeated, over and over. At one point, it was important to shed light and draw attention. But, it's no longer helpful. The point has been made. We are trying to move forward in a more positive way. Instead of recycling the past ad nauseum, why not find out what’s going on currently and form an opinion about that?
ChrisGator, I believe, is waiting for a sign of repentance. While change has occurred, this step has not. He was greatly hurt by SPAR with Louise's direction, like many of us. That sort of thing is tough to understand unless you have been a victim of it.
Want him to heal? Why not ask SPAR to contact him and let him vent directly to them. Let them acknowledge to him the hurt they have done. It is what anyone who has been attacked wants.
This is what is missing.
While I agree with you, She Clown, in my personal experience, I don't get too many people who have hurt me calling on me to repent. Do you? And yet I have somehow found the will to move on. :-)
SPAR is not a person. It is an organization which wants to have authority over the neighborhood and influence over how precious resources are used. TRUST is an important part of its success. It is requesting that the neighborhood trust it and be willing to move forward.
While I agree that very few people who have hurt me in the past call me to repent; however, those who want to maintain a relationship with me do.
And, like it or not, ChrisGator is part of the "neighborhood."
There aren't many who have had a true disdain for the actions and underhandedness of spar, and have witnessed the injustice and blatant disregard for the actual historic preservation, of which spar is supposed to represent, than I. Nor could there be too many others who have been as vocal about all of the negative spar has created and caused, than I. For I have been around this neighborhood a long, long time.
However, I know for a fact that Miss Fixit has been deeply involved in the good of this neighborhood, and has been instrumental in working to turn bad into good, and has been quite successful at it. She's fought the entities that needed to be met head on, and has won on many levels, which has resulted in very positive steps for the community as a whole.
My point is, we all know that spar has made some huge and horrid impacts upon Springfield, their actions have hurt many, and have excluded most who were not in 'their corner', so to speak. I am very cautiously watching and waiting to see how the 'new' spar works, and would love to see a more cohesiveness with other organizations that have proven themselves to be for the betterment of the neighborhood. It's up to spar to either become part of the positive and more or less join forces, or not. Either way, the neighborhood will continue to move forward with it's fight to save the historic structures, and continue to work to improve things for all.
Quote from: Debbie Thompson on September 17, 2011, 07:35:57 AM
CUFG, where is your anger for the City of Jacksonville, who is tasked by municipal law to preserve historic districts? As a legal mind, you know about that. There are 500+ houses gone. It’s awful (although some of those are probably post-fire demos.) Still, it is the City who issued all those demo permits. SPAR has no power to demolish a house. While SPAR didn't fight the demos in the recent past like they should have, and even encouraged some of them to, in my opinion, their shame, it is the City of Jacksonville who is ultimately responsible for this mess, and continues to be.
Our City government has very little to no vision or interest in preserving our history. With all the historic homes and structures surrounding the urban core, we could have been a huge historic tourism destination had it been properly managed with brick streets, street cars, and little mom & pop shops. Savannah and Charleston would have been jealous. But, in typical Jacksonville style, they paved paradise and put up a parking lot.
At least one current council member is actively trying to destroy even more, although he calls his proactive insertion into the free market of not allowing the preservation of what’s already there “not interfering with free enterprise.†Huh? Go figure that one out and comment on it.
Nearly every SPAR post you write is the same stuff, just recycled and repeated, over and over. At one point, it was important to shed light and draw attention. But, it's no longer helpful. The point has been made. We are trying to move forward in a more positive way. Instead of recycling the past ad nauseum, why not find out what’s going on currently and form an opinion about that?
No luck with that gun-from-head removal surgery? I'm dsappointed, I was really crossing my fingers for you to pull through.
Regarding my 'anger' at COJ, I have to take exception to your use of the word 'anger' at all, as I'm not angry. I just see the facts for the facts. To any extent possible, I've taken COJ's actions up in the proper venue. COJ settled with me every time, dropping a quarter of a mil worth of code liens SPAR generated with its mass bogus complaint call-ins. And COJ's contractor is about to settle another claim for knocking my friend's building down. I don't just sit on random message boards like a monkey with a typewriter regurgitating ancient history and in need of direction to the proper outlet, though I certainly appreciate your vote of confidence. I've been suing COJ since before it became fashionable. And though I appreciate the rather ironic suggestion otherwise, I am well up on current Springfield events.
One more time, if you disfavor my posts, then feel free to have that gun removed from your head so you can stop reading them. I hear Johns Hopkins has an experimental gun-from-head removal surgery in clinical trials, I'd advise contacting them to see if perhaps they can help you overcome your obvious difficulty.
Of course, SPAR, as Lunican noted above when he mentioned the travails of anyone seeking a COA, is judgment proof insofar as it unofficially controlled certain of COJ's decisions regarding zoning and code enforcement, but bore none of the costs or liability for its actions. Which wasn't any coincidence. But I suppose that must be ancient history which renders his post nothing more than garbage you'll threaten to ignore. And speaking of, a deal is a deal. You promised, as I recall, to ignore me, and so far you've repeatedly breached that compact, and much to my disappointment.
And nor are you the arbiter of what point has been sufficiently made, and by whom. With the implied expectation that once you deem a topic covered, everyone should immediately shut up and move along, Once again, you must have an awfully high opinion of your own opinion. Two opinions you'll note I don't share.
Regarding Sheclown's comment, you've put the same silly sarcasm blinders on in interpreting her words as you have mine. Nobody is waiting for any handwritten repentance delivered on a silver tray by a gloved waiter, for what you continue to mischaracterize as ancient history. The problem is that moving forward, in order to put SPAR behind us, they actually have to be behind us.
In order to move on, they cannot still be doing the same old things which were, despite your apparently bottomless well of apologism, improper, unforgivable, and damaging. Despite SPAR's claimed support for mothballing, the day of council review they ditched and not a single SPAR member showed up to support it, and in fact they tried to have it yanked from the agenda, forcing a last-minute rewrite to remove language they thought reflected badly on them. Clearly so concerned with the houses, as always. That was last month, in case you don't have a calendar handy. Or evidently don't have one at all.
I'm not sure what your goal is in this interchange? If you really expect everything to be peaches and cream 24/7, then you may want to consider another message board. If you have some larger goal in mind, feel free to PM me and let me know, or else get word through, as it appears we have many of the same friends. If there is some strategy related to SPAR that I'm missing, then by all means please clue me in. But you're not going to win a SPAR apologism debate on these facts, I'm afraid that ship sank before it left the dock. Hard to be bygones when they aren't gone much less bygone. And I suspect you're also not going to win your ad hominem side debate with me, which relies entirely on what must be a blissful ignorance, apparently extending through the present, and on your continually misstating the facts.
Unless you explain your position, aside from us simply not liking each other, which in case you haven't noticed doesn't bother me in the slightest, then I'll happily await your fulfillment of your promise to move on and ignore me. As I said originally, I'd be honored. The larger questions about SPAR and its role in the neighborhood moving forward can only be answered by waiting and watching to see how they reach out, integrate, and try to achieve something positive. So far I haven't been liking what I'm seeing from the 'new' SPAR. And frankly Neither has anyone else. But you aren't going to simply come in and declare 'it's over, move along, nothing to see here...' and expect that will do anything to answer the SPAR question for anyone, including me, without your looking like an ass.
Time, and not your unilateral declarations, will be the judge.
I am in the wonderful position of personally knowing Debbie, MissFixit and ChrisGator. And, believe it or not, we are all in agreement in many issues relating to Springfield.
Missfixit, as her name implies, spends most of her time volunteering to fix things in Springfield. She is a powerhouse, a force to be reckoned with. She plays her cards close to her chest, so don't ever assume that you know her or know what she is thinking. I would trust her and her judgment under any conditions. If I could have representation at the Pearly Gates, I'd like her to argue my case.
Debbie, the metaphorical nurse, the healer, she stands behind those she believes in. She would love you, ChrisGator, if she got to know you. I could hear her giggle at your antics (only if they were not aimed at anyone). Most of us who are involved with Debbie have been "correctected" by her at least once or twice as she sings the song "turn the other cheek." She lives by this and prays that others do too.
And ChrisGator, a loyal friend, brave enough to speak his mind even when he gets attacked for doing so.
Quote from: sheclown on September 17, 2011, 10:20:30 AM
I am in the wonderful position of personally knowing Debbie, MissFixit and ChrisGator. And, believe it or not, we are all in agreement in many issues relating to Springfield.
Missfixit, as her name implies, spends most of her time volunteering to fix things in Springfield. She is a powerhouse, a force to be reckoned with. She plays her cards close to her chest, so don't ever assume that you know her or know what she is thinking. I would trust her and her judgment under any conditions. If I could have representation at the Pearly Gates, I'd like her to argue my case.
Debbie, the metaphorical nurse, the healer, she stands behind those she believes in. She would love you, ChrisGator, if she got to know you. I could hear her giggle at your antics (only if they were not aimed at anyone). Most of us who are involved with Debbie have been "correctected" by her at least once or twice as she sings the song "turn the other cheek." She lives by this and prays that others do too.
And ChrisGator, a loyal friend, brave enough to speak his mind even when he gets attacked for doing so.
She may be the nicest person in the world, Gloria, and your endorsement certainly carries weight with me.
However, when it comes to SPAR, their own actions and attitude, and not your friend's half-baked apologist rants and ad hominem commentary on a message board, are going to be the determining factor in establishing their role moving forward. That line of commentary on her part is ill-advised and premature. Most people, including me, are in wait-and-see mode with the 'new' SPAR, and only time and their own actions and positive efforts will be the determining factor, not her opinions, or in this case her opinion on the weight of her own opinions. Your friend, in coming here and making these unilateral declarations that everything is peachy and we can just 'shut up' and move along, makes herself out to be an ass to anyone who's been here longer than 5 minutes.
If SPAR wants trust and positive support, then it needs to earn it by its own actions. And the jury is still out. I was admittedly less-than-amused at their refusal to support mothballing, their last-minute attempt to submarine the council bill, and their nevertheless taking credit for it in their own newsletter two weeks ago, which Stephen and I tore apart in another thread. So I guess you could say the initial signs aren't positive. But I suppose time will tell.
And Gloria, let's not forget SPAR calling you a liar and undermining the mothballing legislation, by claiming that your figure on the number of demolitions is a fabrication, and that the true number is 1/3'rd of what you've claimed. This has given Schellenberg ammunition for his misguided effort to repeal it;
QuoteLetters from readers: Historic Springfield Houses
Posted: August 13, 2011 - 12:00am
Read more at Jacksonville.com: http://jacksonville.com/opinion/letters-readers/2011-08-13/story/letters-readers-historic-springfield-houses#ixzz1Y9hxG3O2
Bill needs revising
Unfortunately, the editorial regarding the Springfield article distorted the facts.
Although the original bill stated that over 450 historic homes have been demolished in Springfield, when I inquired about the number, no one could verify it or provide data to back it up.
In fact, when the bill was discussed at the council meeting, a member of the Springfield Historic Society stated the number of demolished homes was more likely a third of the 450 listed in the bill.
Also, the editorial mentioned the five-year moratorium. But that was reduced to three years before passage.
Despite the erroneous figures present in the original bill (and in the editorial), I voted against the bill for two main reasons:
- The three-year moratorium granted in the bill is not a term of three years commencing from the date of the mayor's signature. In actuality, homeowners can use this three-year moratorium whenever they want. I will be introducing a bill to rectify this gross error in the bill.
- I believe in the free enterprise system.
It is not the place of government to interfere with the laws of supply and demand, to choose winners and losers, or to subsidize the failures of private investors.
We will learn from our mistakes, but only if we are allowed to make them.
Matt Schellenberg, City Council member
Read more at Jacksonville.com: http://jacksonville.com/opinion/letters-readers/2011-08-13/story/letters-readers-historic-springfield-houses#ixzz1Y9hdaHs9
I don't know about you, but I don't consider things that happened in the past month or so to be ancient history, do you?
Again, your friend's apologist commentary on SPAR is grossly premature and ill-advised.
At best, the jury is still out.
Or is she planning on writing the Times-Union to tell them it's all ancient history and to 'shut up' as well?
Quote"let me know if you have a plan that I should be involved in"
There are a large number of homes still standing on the infamous "formal track" -- the exact number and the addresses have not been received in spite of repeated requests. These formal track homes got nailed with their death sentences beginning in 2007 (the year that 26 houses went down).
Patterson Apartments was one of these homes, a formal track decided in 2010 and demolished in 2011.
Just what deal was made, what plan was hatched?
It is a plan that is still very much in play today. And will be tomorrow and for years.
...There are no appeals allowed on formal track homes.
Chris, in your rather long post, you were unfortunately, mixing us up and responded to my post by castigating Miss Fixit in my stead. While I might like that (she's young and beautiful after all) I'm not too sure she would.
To both of you, Chris and Stephen, it was not my intention to be an apologist for the actions of SPAR about old houses. I don't wear blinders. I've taken Louise deSpain and others in SPAR (Gerry Troy, Mac Bissette and others) to task on many occasions about the old houses in the 7 years I have lived in Springfield, not that it did any good.
Chris, I don't know how you got the idea that I disliked you, I read all your posts. How else would I know what they are about? If I chose not to, it wouldn't take a gun to my head, as you suggested to Miss Fixit, to make me not read them. Not sure why you don't think I can disagee with you without disliking you. I thought I was civil about it. I'd take my post down since my intent was not to cause you grief, but it's been quoted so many times in the last few hours, there would be little point in it. So please accept my apology for offending you instead.
I'm tired of fighting. Don't want to fight with you. Don't want to fight with Stephen. Tired of fighting SPAR. Hope to see improvement in that organization soon or I'll have to seriously rethink my membership. Hope to proactively fight for our remaining old houses. If I didn't care so much about them, I'd stop that too.
That's it, Debbie...too many others think that just because others see things differently, and/or disagree, that it means they dislike the person posting...which generally, isn't the case. I know for a fact that both you, and Miss Fixit are far from the kind of people that simply take spar at their word. We've all been around long enough, we've all seen what spar has done in the past and none of us have blinders on. It's just reached the point, everyone knows the truth, and it's become tiring to continue keep discussing it...the old beating a dead horse stance. Just because we've reached the point that it feels (to us) that it no longer feels necessary to continually bringing up the past in order to educate others...like I said, we all know the truth about spar. I simply don't feel the need to insult others for having a different outlook, nor do I feel that because someone has a differing opinion of spar, that they're wrong.
Oddly enough, even though it may not appear...we're all basically on the same page when it comes to lack of trusting spar. I know that I'm in a wait and see mode, have been for quite some time...I would like to feel optimistic, I would like to believe that spar sincerely has taken on a new found desire to do what's right for the community of which it's supposed to be serving...but because of their history, and because of the loss of trust, I wait to see. Proof of sincerity is to be proven, and they must indeed, prove themselves worthy of my trust.
Even with the newer board members, there's cause for concern...when one had taken down a historic house. The fact that I get along with this neighbor does not mean that I accept the 'reason' for it being taken down. New board members does not always equal new leadership or a new and improved outlook on what's best for the community. Time will tell.
Quote from: Debbie Thompson on September 18, 2011, 01:20:33 AM
Chris, in your rather long post, you were unfortunately, mixing us up and responded to my post by castigating Miss Fixit in my stead. While I might like that (she's young and beautiful after all) I'm not too sure she would.
To both of you, Chris and Stephen, it was not my intention to be an apologist for the actions of SPAR about old houses. I don't wear blinders. I've taken Louise deSpain and others in SPAR (Gerry Troy, Mac Bissette and others) to task on many occasions about the old houses in the 7 years I have lived in Springfield, not that it did any good.
Chris, I don't know how you got the idea that I disliked you, I read all your posts. How else would I know what they are about? If I chose not to, it wouldn't take a gun to my head, as you suggested to Miss Fixit, to make me not read them. Not sure why you don't think I can disagee with you without disliking you. I thought I was civil about it. I'd take my post down since my intent was not to cause you grief, but it's been quoted so many times in the last few hours, there would be little point in it. So please accept my apology for offending you instead.
I'm tired of fighting. Don't want to fight with you. Don't want to fight with Stephen. Tired of fighting SPAR. Hope to see improvement in that organization soon or I'll have to seriously rethink my membership. Hope to proactively fight for our remaining old houses. If I didn't care so much about them, I'd stop that too.
Miss Fixit made herself look like an ass and thoroughly deserved it, there is no misunderstanding on that one.
Though I quoted your post instead of hers by mistake. So it would be fair to say I accidentally castigated you in her stead. I've had a helluva cold this week, I'm a little off my game. You'll have to excuse me on that. But none of that changes any of the facts or the issue, does it? What the SPAR crowd has done, and continues to do today, is damaging. This isn't some past-tense ancient history, it's still occurring. If you, or Miss Fixit, feel the need to defend or defuse on SPAR's behalf, which you both were indeed doing, then be prepared to face the inevitable result, because no sooner will you have clicked the "post" button than that group will do something so abhorrent it makes you look like a total ass for trying.
It's not your fault what's happening with the mothballing legislation, you may not even have known about it. But when you come out with these "forgive and forget" missives that are woefully premature, given that group's ongoing behavior, this is really just the inevitable result. You'd be very well served to adopt the realistic view the rest of us have, and replace that blind faith with a wait and see attitude.
Quote from: Springfielder on September 18, 2011, 08:47:19 AM
That's it, Debbie...too many others think that just because others see things differently, and/or disagree, that it means they dislike the person posting...which generally, isn't the case. I know for a fact that both you, and Miss Fixit are far from the kind of people that simply take spar at their word. We've all been around long enough, we've all seen what spar has done in the past and none of us have blinders on. It's just reached the point, everyone knows the truth, and it's become tiring to continue keep discussing it...the old beating a dead horse stance. Just because we've reached the point that it feels (to us) that it no longer feels necessary to continually bringing up the past in order to educate others...like I said, we all know the truth about spar. I simply don't feel the need to insult others for having a different outlook, nor do I feel that because someone has a differing opinion of spar, that they're wrong.
Oddly enough, even though it may not appear...we're all basically on the same page when it comes to lack of trusting spar. I know that I'm in a wait and see mode, have been for quite some time...I would like to feel optimistic, I would like to believe that spar sincerely has taken on a new found desire to do what's right for the community of which it's supposed to be serving...but because of their history, and because of the loss of trust, I wait to see. Proof of sincerity is to be proven, and they must indeed, prove themselves worthy of my trust.
Even with the newer board members, there's cause for concern...when one had taken down a historic house. The fact that I get along with this neighbor does not mean that I accept the 'reason' for it being taken down. New board members does not always equal new leadership or a new and improved outlook on what's best for the community. Time will tell.
Oh come on...
Quote from: Miss Fixit on September 16, 2011, 10:04:56 PM
Yes, I know, you've advised that you will not shut up. I just need to start ignoring you like everyone else does.
Quote from: Miss Fixit on September 16, 2011, 10:04:56 PM
you certainly seem to be one of the most bitter, singularly focused individuals I have encountered
Quote from: Miss Fixit on September 16, 2011, 10:04:56 PM
your stories are old and tired; you never seem to have anything new to say.
Quote from: Miss Fixit on September 16, 2011, 03:41:39 PM
At this point, people who have nothing better to do than complain about SPAR and Springfield are more harmful to Springfield than SPAR is.
Quote from: Debbie Thompson on September 17, 2011, 07:35:57 AM
Instead of recycling the past ad nauseum, why not find out what’s going on currently and form an opinion about that?
I don't have any persecution complex, Springfielder, nor do I get defensive when someone has a different view.
Those two, especially Miss Fixit, made this personal. Not me.
It's hardly my fault her effort backfired, is it? Given her profession, she knows better than to a poke a beehive before she knows all the facts, but she did so anyway. That was her choice. And she certainly chose her own words.
The record speaks for itself.
About the dead horse;
There may or may not be any point in beating a dead horse, but it's not going to hurt the horse much either, is it?Of course, I think the record also speaks for itself on this one. Because the horse isn't really dead at all, given that certain SPAR members are assisting Schellenberg with repealing the mothballing legislation because of nothing more than sour grapes with neighbors, and engaging in some misguided attempt to cover-up or downplay the number of demolitions. The extent of the undermining just became known this week, and still hasn't been openly discussed. Though Stephen has now publicly identified the traitor. So it's hardly ancient history. Whether this is the last kick of a dying horse, or whether it's more of the same remains to be seen. SPAR elections are scheduled for October, let's see if the new faces bring change.
But like I've said all along, the jury's still out.
Well, I was rather upset that some contingencies had to be made to get mothballing through: removal of a 450 number and 5 to 3 years. But you fold to make something happen. The people speaking and fighting for mothballing were the same like-minded folks working together for preservation for the last year.
Personally I was willing to sell my soul to make mothballing happen, however fighting against the very forces who are meant to protect our homes is appalling. There are some things I just don't care about, people or entities will continue to get in the way of saving the houses unfortunately. I can't control that, but I can control how I respond to that: work harder and with more passion.
I can't bring back the hundreds of houses that are gone. Blame Spar, blame Louise, blame HPC, blame code, blame the community. Yup, they are all at fault. Personally, my time is better spent helping the live horses, not beating the dead ones. There is too much that still must be done in the community. First is stopping Schellenburg. Second getting folks into the mothballing program so the houses can be saved and restored. Third is supporting the growth of Main Street. Fourth is maintaining 2 and 3.
While I do care what Spar does and becomes (or doesn't) it's not going to effect saving the houses. Make it more challenging? Yup. But such is the way then.
After spending yesterday in Gainesville surrounded by gorgeous coeds (and some beautiful historic homes, too) it was good to get up this morning and see Gloria, Stephen and Debbie's lovely comments about me! I feel like bursting into one of Natalie Wood's solos from West Side Story.
But this thread was supposed to be about demolitions, not me, so it's way past time to change the subject.
HPC has worked diligently to review what has happened over the past 25+ years since Springfield was named a National Historic District.
I don't think anyone on this board would disagree that 100 demolitions would have been far too many, and that more than 500 is an atrocity. I don't think anyone on this board disagrees that the neighborhood "preservation" organization is in a variety of ways responsible for the magnitude of that number.
I have stated that I believe the current board of that organization is trying to move in a new direction. That doesn't mean I'm any less appreciative of the hard work that Gloria and Debbie and Nicole Lopez and others have done to bring attention to our demolition problem and to otherwise improve our still beautiful and still historic neighborhood. If they just sat around and complained about SPAR and the city instead of actually organizing and taking action, where would we be now?
We need to keep working, not waste time arguing about whether there were 300 demolitions or 500 or more. We need to figure out how to raise money to save the houses that are left. We need more of the people who don't like what they've seen happen in the neighborhood over the past 25 years to join in and do something positive, something tangible, to help.
Quote from: Miss Fixit on September 18, 2011, 12:11:31 PM
After spending yesterday in Gainesville surrounded by gorgeous coeds (and some beautiful historic homes, too) it was good to get up this morning and see Gloria, Stephen and Debbie's lovely comments about me! I feel like bursting into one of Natalie Wood's solos from West Side Story.
But this thread was supposed to be about demolitions, not me, so it's way past time to change the subject.
HPC has worked diligently to review what has happened over the past 25+ years since Springfield was named a National Historic District.
I don't think anyone on this board would disagree that 100 demolitions would have been far too many, and that more than 500 is an atrocity. I don't think anyone on this board disagrees that the neighborhood "preservation" organization is in a variety of ways responsible for the magnitude of that number.
I have stated that I believe the current board of that organization is trying to move in a new direction. That doesn't mean I'm any less appreciative of the hard work that Gloria and Debbie and Nicole Lopez and others have done to bring attention to our demolition problem and to otherwise improve our still beautiful and still historic neighborhood. If they just sat around and complained about SPAR and the city instead of actually organizing and taking action, where would we be now?
We need to keep working, not waste time arguing about whether there were 300 demolitions or 500 or more. We need to figure out how to raise money to save the houses that are left. We need more of the people who don't like what they've seen happen in the neighborhood over the past 25 years to join in and do something positive, something tangible, to help.
Gainesville is my old college stomping grounds, beautiful city.
There comes a certain point when one must realize that a reoccurring problem must have a cause. The cause is generally not the person who merely discovers the problem, or points out that it exists at all. The cause is the cause. Focusing your ire on those persons uselessly shoots the messenger. Messengers who, in this situation, are actually on your side. The reality of life being what it is, you can't please everyone all the time. Your efforts and vision for the neighborhood are not shared by some. While I understand your desire to heal and move forward, being overly protective of those who do not share your vision, which I think we can all agree is the correct vision, may serve to undermine your own efforts.
While I understand that you are approaching an entity with pre-existing municipal recognition and ties, and while it may seem easier to incorporate that existing framework to serve your efforts, I think in certain situations very poor estimations are being made of exactly what portion of that leftover framework is actually compatible with your efforts, and/or is actually willing to help. Or even to not hurt.
There is very little ethically worth doing that would not, or should not, withstand being revealed in the light of day. Believe it or not, I anxiously await the day when I will have nothing further to say about SPAR. Unfortunately, just when the last thing settles down, another crops up. But I'm not Schellenberg. And I'm not helping him. I'm not Chris Farley. Or Bill Hoff. Their actions are not mine, and I do not create them. There have indeed been 532 demolitions, that is the correct number. There is no sense in arguing, and nor will I argue, over whether I will speak about it. Because I will. It needs to be said. Nor am I doing anything improper or unhelpful simply by turning on the light switch. So maybe we can put somewhat more effort into not shooting the messenger in the future?
We all have the same goal here. And believe it or not, I may actually know what I'm doing.
Quote from: Miss Fixit on September 18, 2011, 12:11:31 PM
After spending yesterday in Gainesville surrounded by gorgeous coeds (and some beautiful historic homes, too) it was good to get up this morning and see Gloria, Stephen and Debbie's lovely comments about me! I feel like bursting into one of Natalie Wood's solos from West Side Story.
But this thread was supposed to be about demolitions, not me, so it's way past time to change the subject.
HPC has worked diligently to review what has happened over the past 25+ years since Springfield was named a National Historic District.
I don't think anyone on this board would disagree that 100 demolitions would have been far too many, and that more than 500 is an atrocity. I don't think anyone on this board disagrees that the neighborhood "preservation" organization is in a variety of ways responsible for the magnitude of that number.
I have stated that I believe the current board of that organization is trying to move in a new direction. That doesn't mean I'm any less appreciative of the hard work that Gloria and Debbie and Nicole Lopez and others have done to bring attention to our demolition problem and to otherwise improve our still beautiful and still historic neighborhood. If they just sat around and complained about SPAR and the city instead of actually organizing and taking action, where would we be now?
We need to keep working, not waste time arguing about whether there were 300 demolitions or 500 or more. We need to figure out how to raise money to save the houses that are left. We need more of the people who don't like what they've seen happen in the neighborhood over the past 25 years to join in and do something positive, something tangible, to help.
So, what am I, chopped liver? Just kidding...but you know I'm supportive of you and all you've done for Springfield and continue to do
For about three and a half decades, SPAR and now SPAR Council has erred in the name of exclusivity. Every decade has ended the same. Given two paths to "success", one right and one wrong, SPAR and more recently SPAR Council has invariably chosen the wrong path. I see no one on the "new" board that makes me believe that the history that is SPAR/ SPAR Council will result in positive change today. I see a couple that will try, but have seen this play before.
The analogy of beating a dead horse only works if the horse is really dead ...
That said, those of you who wish to be optimistic certainly have that right. As does those of us who prefer the more ... darker ... approach.