Metro Jacksonville

I found this article to be very interesting

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/frank-gruber/why-did-america-destroy-i_b_916438.html

......is the answer "The Public"?  tell us Stephen!

Stephen, your three points would fit into this one general point in the quoted article:

A failure in politics, ideology or management. This would be the thesis of critics of modernism, in everything from urban design to management, encompassing the arguments in favor of urban renewal from architects like Le Corbusier or José Luis Sert, to the rise of technocracy in place of traditional politics based on patronage.

I also don't think you can underestimate the sales job done by the developers of suburbia.  They convinced this populace that was how you keep up with the Jones-es.

Quote from: JeffreyS on August 22, 2011, 08:32:39 AM
I also don't think you can underestimate the sales job done by the developers of suburbia.  They convinced this populace that was how you keep up with the Jones-es.

This. There was heavy propaganda going on in those times from TV & radio. That wasn't the sole reason of course, but a piece of the puzzle. Looking back on those old news reels is pretty funny (and sad too). It's so blatant.

Developers, car companies, etc knew they could only profit so much from the already-developped cities. So what to do?? Why, convince people to move out to big spreads in the 'burbs, rip up any viable public transit & have everyone drive in of course! And give it a nice patriotic ring like "The American Dream". Booyah! $$$

Well, that dream turned out to be a con-job of epic proportions. Its actually a big reason why we're in such deep doodoo right now.

How sinister... those evil developers and greedy corporations...

I think you have it exactly opposite.  The folks did not want to live in the city.  They wanted their own house... their own yard... their own car.  They wanted to drive themselves... not take the bus or the subway.  They did not want to live in a crowded, smelly, polluted city.  Apartments were something you tolerated until you could buy a house.  Developers simply provided what the people wanted.

You mention the propaganda (advertising) of the times as "sad".  Do you really think the ads that influence you today are much different?  If anything... the folks then were much more skeptical of "propaganda than the populace of today...

Just like it is incorrect to blame corporations and developers... It is pretty tough to lay it all on the planners.  The planners were planning in accordance to the peoples wants.  The people wanted suburbia... and rather than some haphazard and truly poor developments... they planned suburbia.  Planners may have been enablers... just like developers and corporations... but they were only reacting to what the consumer wanted.

Would be nice if the world were that simplistic BT. People want it then the product or service comes into being is not the normal order of operations.

You may want a coke and that is why the store stocks them.  The truth is when it was created people were coerced (marketed) into trying it and the brand has to constantly advertise to maintain it's perceived value to the consumer.  Not evil developers just marketing what they can sell.   If you haven't looked into it sometimes it can be hard to relate to how much advertising affects us.  I can tell you I sell lots of branded products and the ones that are currently doing an advertising campaign must be heavily stocked.

Do not be naive about the developers only make what people want and need. Often product develpopers try to get people to want what they can make.

I had neighbor long ago who designed a machine that could remove clean and replace the gravel on the top of buildings that used that type of roof. The tar on the roof was easy to patch while the gravel was gone.  This was much cheaper for the customer than the traditional method of removing the tar gravel and all and replacing it.  He did well running a business with this.  Enter a national commercial roofing company who paid him an OK price up front and gave him great royalties for future us on his product.  He had it made except for the corporation mothballed the cleaner to keep it's more profitable replacement service going.

There have even been instances of Bus companies buying streetcar lines and scrapping them to sell buses.

Supply and Demand are not the only forces at work in a market.

This video is a good example of planners dreams from the 1950s. At 2:40 they start talking about the advantages of spreading cities out.

"The shape of our cities will change as expanded highway transportation decentralizes our population centers into vast urban areas. With the advent of wider, faster expressways; the commuters radius will be extended many miles."

http://www.youtube.com/v/F6pUMlPBMQA?version=3&hl=en_US

Quote from: stephendare on August 22, 2011, 09:46:41 AMI believe that what you are seeing in our downtown and urban areas is the predictable outcome of how we designed our policies and our codes.  All of the cities started deteriorating by mid century.  We are just 20 years further into the process than most.

I don't think we're 20 years further into the process.  Instead, we're 20 years behind the process.  A significant chunk of our peer cities have realized this type of growth is unsustainable and have modified their policies to encourage revitalization in their core areas.  For example, San Diego and Portland modified their land use policies as far back as the 1980s.  Lexington, KY doesn't have much sprawl because they have an urban growth boundary.  Today, because of that decision decades ago, there's ton of agricultural and rural areas a few miles from the heart of the city.  The City of Golden, CO (a Denver suburb) is funding a study to show a toll beltway planned for that area would be a money loser (http://www.gothebetterway.org/).  Over the years ,other cities like Milwaukee have taken elevated expressways done and replaced them with parks and other development. 

Here, not only does our TPO and JTA want an Outer Beltway at any expense, behind closed doors some actually want this boondoggle extended north to Nassau County as well.  Needless to say, it's no suprise why our urban core didn't see similar economic gains that many of our peer cities enjoyed over the last decade.   Its because they've recognized what bad growth is and have implemented policies to slow it down and we haven't (the mobility plan should change this).  In short, they're now decades of ahead of us and the gulf is growing.

Hello, this is Frank Gruber -- somehow the Facebook page for this site found the Facebook page for my book, and sent the link. I'm quite gratified that my article sparked this excellent discussion. Thanks. I might try to respond more substantively later, but I just returned from vacation and I have a lot of work to do! The only thing I'd say now is that nothing is inevitable when it comes to patterns of growth.

Quote from: stephendare on August 22, 2011, 11:32:53 AM
apples and oranges in the context of the governing process.  During the 90s and 2ks lmost all the other cities have embraced partial elements of the new urbanism ethos and begun the process of reversing the sprawl mandate of early planning.

We started with the city destroying demassification programs 20 years before anyone else, and so had more damage to repair by the time the mid 90s rolled around and the other cities began the process of rational design, following Seattle and Portland's citizen based community planning boards.

I'd say its apples to apples and to a degree, we're saying the same thing.  I just happen to believe that Jacksonville's plight is not unique, other than the fact that the governing tide began to change a decade or two ago and we're still struggling to keep the same old bad policies alive.  There was a reason I felt that Jax was 10 years behind everyone else when I moved here in 2003 and I'd argue to say that gulf has grown since then.

Historicially, from my studies, my position is what happened here during the mid 20th century is no different from the majority of American cities.  Massive demolition in DT and freeway construction in DT Jax didn't really take off till the 1950s.  The majority of American cities had followed suit within the same decade and certainly by the early 1960s.  The 1970s and 80s were a mess for everyone and several cities did more or just as much destruction as we did.   A few that come to mind are Tampa, Tuscon and Charlotte.  Some others also got hit economically by being one horse towns (ex. Detroit, Buffalo, Youngstown, etc.) with nothing to fall back on when the horse died or picked up and moved.   Another set was so far in the economic dump, they didn't have the capital to launch major urban renewal projects, which luckily ended up in the wide scale preservation of their historic building fabric (ex. Savannah, Charleston, etc.).

However, many cities began to change what we continue to do in the 1980s/90s (a period, I'd argue was the worst for Jax's urban core).  For example, in the 1990s Charlotte started implementing policies to change their course (they were just as bad as us for decades).  While they were opening their first streetcar line, we were busy taking out LaVilla.  A decade later when they were opening their new LRT line, we were busy wiping out Brooklyn to expand Riverside Avenue.

Now they are seeking to implement a modern streetcar system and we're working to stop urban innovation and creativity from happening (anyone try to operate a mobile food truck business, open an urban farm or paint a mural on a building wall these days?).

If we had taken the same path as Charlotte and Salt Lake City did in the 1990s, I'd say we'd be further ahead of where they stand right now, even with our large number of demolitions between the 1950s and 80s.  Now it's not a suprise that we're so far behind both of them when we were essentially equals 20 years ago and on a separate tier 50 years ago.

Btw, here is a before and after comparison of Uptown Charlotte:

(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-1416-charlotte-urbanrenewal-aerial.jpg)

Uptown Charlotte a year or two ago:

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1c/Charlotte_uptown_Aerial.jpg/800px-Charlotte_uptown_Aerial.jpg)

Btw, take a look at how the LRT line integrates with buildings at each stop.....

Several of the highrises are mixed use, residential and hotels.  However, they also have a good chunk of office space.  I'll have to go back and verify but Uptown's vacancy rates are better than DT Jacksonville's.

Quote from: stephendare on August 22, 2011, 12:18:24 PM
The rebuff in the early 20's would not be in vain, as some communities did benefit by this effort to establish in law, planning and zoning authority. For instance, the City of Orlando successfully operated under a special act that was passed in the 1923 session of the Florida Legislature giving the community the official, legal authorization to establish a Zoning Commission. Immediately thereafter, Orlando engaged a planning consultant to prepare their first master plan. Once completed, Orlando put into effect their plan by means of a comprehensive zoning and map. The City of Coral Gables was soon to follow under its own special act passed by the Florida legislature in 1925. A number of Florida municipalities and counties (e.g., City of Miami and Miami beach) also have special acts dating back to the 1920's and 30's.

All three of those South Florida cities have fared pretty well.  Coral Gables is beautiful, Miami Beach is one of the densest historically preserved cities in the US and Miami is no slouch when it comes to urban density either (although walkability could certainly be improved).

QuoteYou are correct in identifying the 50s as the era where wholesale destruction became obvious.

The Feds were pouring money into the GI Bill, and after all those military funded kids graduated from college, they all got GI bill loans to build houses in tract housing developments whose highway access was made possible by work projects care of the federal government.

Don't forget that Dwight Eisenhower (I Like Ike!)  is the man who began the construction of the Interstate Highway system.

This is when the ideas of the City Planners basically got federally funded, and it was like hooking them up to steroids.

I guess this is the point I was trying to make when it comes to wholesale destruction.  Yes, local planning may have started here in the 1920s but massive destruction didn't take place until federal dollars became available.  During this period (40s-70s), the majority of American cities were negatively impacted at the same time by urban redevelopment schemes, expressway construction, planning based on racial separation, etc.  Heading into the 1980s, I don't think urban Jax was any worse off than any other urban core in America.  Unfortunately, things may appear that way today because we have not followed the urban reinvestment trend that many places have over the past two decades.

Quote from: stephendare on August 22, 2011, 09:46:41 AM

Quote from: BridgeTroll on August 22, 2011, 09:21:28 AM
Just like it is incorrect to blame corporations and developers... It is pretty tough to lay it all on the planners.  The planners were planning in accordance to the peoples wants.  The people wanted suburbia... and rather than some haphazard and truly poor developments... they planned suburbia.  Planners may have been enablers... just like developers and corporations... but they were only reacting to what the consumer wanted.

I really understand what you are saying, Bridge Troll, and two years ago I would have even agreed with you.  But in all good faith I simply cannot agree any longer, as the facts did not bear out our common assumption.

In fact they were the opposite.

No one wanted suburbs.  They hadn't ever existed, so there wasn't a pre existing demand for them.

The 19th Century, especially in the Industrial Cities of the US, was simply obsessed with the evils of 'overcrowdigng'---what we would call today 'density'.  Taking for granted the observation of Pericles: 'All Good Things go to The City, Because of the City's Greatness", they misidentified population density as the problem instead of better industrial and building practices and began well, tinkering.

Starting with the fabulist notions of the City Beautiful Movement, and then gaining steam through the Progressive Era, every social ill and every Cause to improve humanity, from prostitution to lending practices, to racial mixing, to aesthetic design, to epidemiology was built into the construction of city planning.

The idea for 'suburbs' got federal, national and Planning green light following the National City Planning conference in 1909.  But the experimental trolley line suburbs had already been implemented in 'enlightened' cities (like Jacksonville) up to 15 years earlier.

In fact, I would posit that the reason Jacksonville's downtown failure is so extreme can be attributed to the fact that Jacksonville was such a beacon and guiding light of Progressive and liberal values at the turn of the Century.  We were the first Southern City to have a Progressive City Planning Board, we beat the rest of the cities here by a couple of decades.

I believe that what you are seeing in our downtown and urban areas is the predictable outcome of how we designed our policies and our codes.  All of the cities started deteriorating by mid century.  We are just 20 years further into the process than most.

Great video.  Anybody alive back then saw them all the time.  You know... the wonders of science... the world of tommorrow...etc.  Disney was a huge promoter of such things.  A fun experiment might be to keep score as the movie runs to see how many things never came to pass... have yet still to happen... and correct predictions.  My guess is correct predictions will lose.

That said... these were things people were told were possible... people wanted it... they believed it... they were told(as we are today) "technology will solve all our problems".  You notice there is no mention of where the power will come from.  Oil was cheap, atomic power was coming online and unlimited.  Why would I want to live in a dirty old building in the city when I can have a nice shiny new house.  Why take the bus when I can simply drive.

We killed the city... you, me, and ma and pa kettle...

The planners gave us what we wanted... we wanted what the futurists/scientists/sociologists told us was possible.

Imagine suburbia without the planners.  It still would have happened... it just would have been  a huge freeking mess.

Hmmmm... you mention "demassification".  This certainly makes sense in an era of MAD.  Couple that with the interstate system which we know was actually partly a military project.

Duck and cover baby... ;)

They certainly believed in survivability... We are all fans of "Alas Babylon"

Back to the topic tho... We have brought out many different causes to suburbia... some more influential than others.  It is clear that the sum total of all these factors brought us what we have today.  I understand you think otherwise but I am not one to conclude there was some grand design... or diabolical conspiracy, or governmental policy that got us where we are today.  It is likely the result of all three... but most of all... it was done with the full and enthusiastic support of the American public.

Quote from: stephendare on August 22, 2011, 01:13:29 PM

Quote from: BridgeTroll on August 22, 2011, 01:10:43 PM
They certainly believed in survivability... We are all fans of "Alas Babylon"

Thanks BT!  youve given me another direction for research!

Oh No!  I didnt mean too!   ;) ;D :D :)

Another angle that I do not believe we have touched on is WWII.  Many of the cities of Europe and Asia were essentially destroyed.  These countries had to rebuild their cities.  Transport needed to be public because that was the most cost effective for them.  These rebuilt cities are relatively modern in comparison the their "undestroyed and non rebuilt" American cities.  While they rebuilt their cities from the inside out... we simply expanded. 

Why?

Land was cheap and easy. New homes on that land were modern and affordable.  Transportation moved towards private auto rather than public conveyance because we didn't need to use it.

This is one of the more interesting and better forum discussions I have ever read on MetroJax. 

For the longest time I thought the deterioration of the American downtown and urban structure was due to the separation of economic classes.

Do we have any examples of an American city that did not suffer this fate? 

Quote from: BridgeTroll on August 22, 2011, 01:31:09 PM
Another angle that I do not believe we have touched on is WWII.  Many of the cities of Europe and Asia were essentially destroyed.  These countries had to rebuild their cities.  Transport needed to be public because that was the most cost effective for them.  These rebuilt cities are relatively modern in comparison the their "undestroyed and non rebuilt" American cities.  While they rebuilt their cities from the inside out... we simply expanded. 

Why?

Land was cheap and easy. New homes on that land were modern and affordable.  Transportation moved towards private auto rather than public conveyance because we didn't need to use it.

Interesting angle BT and I'd agree with the point that Europe and Asia both were able to pick up the pieces with the best available technology of the era. That however doesn't explain my sojourn in Colombia, Panama, Brasil ETC. where I found many cities, Medellin for example, to be FAR ahead of Jacksonville in almost every way. Transit, Water, Medical/EMS, Airport, Offices, Residential, Parks... and on and on. Nobody has ever bombed them back to the stone age as we did with Japan and Germany and over all they are poorer then either of them, yet they excel. What are we missing here?

OCKLAWAHA

Planners & Consultants

I recall an instance during my tenure on a St Johns River Water Managementent District Advisory Committee.
A local Planning group office conference room was selected by the District for meeting location.We conducted one meeting at that location.Future unfolding River and Community impacts were clearly posted in the conference room.
I made a point to check point in hopes of garnering Advisory Committee meeting privacy.
There was a backlash over the meeting location which the District heard loud and clear,although in hind sight perhaps we should have stay put!.......

Every single knock down,drag out Enviro/Community episode I have ever been involved in as a citizen and upper level Florida/Northeast Florida Wildlife Federation Board Member has been energized and driven by Planner & Consultant.

Beltway proceedings a dandy narrative.

Quote from: Ocklawaha on August 22, 2011, 09:53:30 PM

Quote from: BridgeTroll on August 22, 2011, 01:31:09 PM
Another angle that I do not believe we have touched on is WWII.  Many of the cities of Europe and Asia were essentially destroyed.  These countries had to rebuild their cities.  Transport needed to be public because that was the most cost effective for them.  These rebuilt cities are relatively modern in comparison the their "undestroyed and non rebuilt" American cities.  While they rebuilt their cities from the inside out... we simply expanded. 

Why?

Land was cheap and easy. New homes on that land were modern and affordable.  Transportation moved towards private auto rather than public conveyance because we didn't need to use it.

Interesting angle BT and I'd agree with the point that Europe and Asia both were able to pick up the pieces with the best available technology of the era. That however doesn't explain my sojourn in Colombia, Panama, Brasil ETC. where I found many cities, Medellin for example, to be FAR ahead of Jacksonville in almost every way. Transit, Water, Medical/EMS, Airport, Offices, Residential, Parks... and on and on. Nobody has ever bombed them back to the stone age as we did with Japan and Germany and over all they are poorer then either of them, yet they excel. What are we missing here?

OCKLAWAHA

No doubt Ock.  I can only say that every country or regions circumstances and development is different.  I will revert back to a couple points in an attempt to explain it.  We are a very large country.  Back in the day... we saw no reason to confine ourselves to the "city limits".  We were relatively rich and we did not forsee any boundaries.  Public transport not only wasn't wanted... it wasn't needed.  With the benefit of hindsight we see that those decisions and attitudes were wrong. 

Something else to consider when looking back and assessing where we went wrong; we always believe that what we know now is correct.  How many times do we say "if I knew then what I know now, I wouldn't have done these things.  We were misguided."

So, that has me questioning, what are we so sure about today that we will look back on as the absolutely wrong thing to do?

Quote from: stephendare on August 23, 2011, 08:11:16 AM

Quote from: BridgeTroll on August 23, 2011, 06:41:05 AM
No doubt Ock.  I can only say that every country or regions circumstances and development is different.  I will revert back to a couple points in an attempt to explain it.  We are a very large country.  Back in the day... we saw no reason to confine ourselves to the "city limits".  We were relatively rich and we did not forsee any boundaries.  Public transport not only wasn't wanted... it wasn't needed.  With the benefit of hindsight we see that those decisions and attitudes were wrong.

Im sorry my friend, but when you make statements of this kind, you should preface them with "I assume"  or "I would guess", that way you have the benefit of simply being mistaken rather than saying something that is utterly false, as this statement is.

Pubic Transportation was built right into the foundation of all of our major cities. 

What was uncommon was private transportation other than horses, and even then horses tended to be pretty expensive to buy and maintain.

Unless your statement is a vague assumption on your part, where on earth did you get the idea that public transportation infrastructure was either unwanted or unnecessary.

What Ock is trying to get to, is that none of the other countries went through the same kinds of self dismantlement than we did.

Agreed.  It is an assumption on my part... and clearly public transportation was built into all the major cities.  I am referring to the rise of suburbs.  The existing public transport was not extended into these areas.  The question is why?  I will go back to the video you offered earlier as a reason.  People wanted the technology, convenience, and freedom that private conveyance offers.  We often use the term "unintended consequences" and a consequence of our desires for private conveyance cost us public transport.  We as a people abandoned public for private.

Quote from: north miami on August 23, 2011, 06:01:17 AM
Every single knock down,drag out Enviro/Community episode I have ever been involved in as a citizen and upper level Florida/Northeast Florida Wildlife Federation Board Member has been energized and driven by Planner & Consultant.

driven by a planner & consultant? perhaps you mean by their clients?

for those interested, certified planners are required to follow a code of ethics....you can find it here:

http://planning.org/ethics/ethicscode.htm

note that #1 is a nebuolus concept....#2 is much more clearly defined.

What would we do without social progressives?  They surely did a good job of selling the idea of low density.  I am certainly not arguing that all that happened.  I guess my definition of the rise of suburbia as we know it began post WWII.  This "new" version of suburbia clearly had no plans for mass transit.

Cheap cars and cheap gas were a major driver too.  Europe had to import all of its oil so taxed the devil out of it to prevent trade imbalances and currency outflow.  Driving was expensive and public transport was supported by those high gas taxes. 

The US had its own oil so our gas was and still is cheap.  A couple of economists have pointed out that having oil under your ground has proved to be a curse for most countries.  It has saddled us with a car dependent infrastructure and the need to prop up and protect corrupt regimes around the world to keep it flowing.

No doubt.  What I am unsure about is "cause and effect".  My theory/opinion is that the consumer drove the planning process where you seem to hold that the planning/planners drove the consumer.

Quote from: stephendare on August 23, 2011, 09:02:19 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_American_streetcar_scandal

Only a few US cities have surviving effective rail-based urban transport systems based on tram, metro, or elevated train; notable survivors include New York City, Newark, New Jersey, Philadelphia, San Francisco, Boston, Washington D.C. and Chicago.

GM took out DC's mass transit network too.  What's in DC today has all been built since 1976.

Quote from: Dog Walker on August 23, 2011, 09:08:19 AM
Cheap cars and cheap gas were a major driver too.  Europe had to import all of its oil so taxed the devil out of it to prevent trade imbalances and currency outflow.  Driving was expensive and public transport was supported by those high gas taxes. 

The US had its own oil so our gas was and still is cheap.  A couple of economists have pointed out that having oil under your ground has proved to be a curse for most countries.  It has saddled us with a car dependent infrastructure and the need to prop up and protect corrupt regimes around the world to keep it flowing.

The general public was basically given no choice.  With the viable transit alternative eliminated, and public policies implemented to force the development of low density sprawl, the low guy on the totem pole either had to buy a car or walk.

I think class divisions had some impact too.  I can remember listening to an elderly lady when I was a kid who talked about how glad she was when she finally got a car so she wouldn't have to be on the streetcars with all of those "rough" people.

As a kid, I had trouble getting my head around what she meant by "rough".  Unshaven?  Bumpy skin?

Robert Moses race separation techniques are littered all over urban Jax.  For example, our original expressway system (now I-95) was built along a corridor that separated white and black communities of that era.  By the time Springfield went dark, the City then began to sever the street grid between it and downtown, which has led to the creation of the "no man's" land between Union and 1st St. today.

(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-1915-mlk-construction-moses-1962.jpg)
The construction of the 20th Street Expressway (now MLK Parkway) in 1962.

(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/images/history/downtown_waterfront_history/main-river-background.jpg)
Original Springfield/Downtown connectivity

(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3228/2487152112_b40ab9049f_o.jpg)
Springfield/DT street grid today.  Unless you are familiar with the streets, it's pretty difficult to get into Springfield from Downtown.

As for streetcar suburbs and their demise, there is more to the story then simply General Motors and their National City Lines conspirators (Firestone, Mack, Greyhound, Phillips, Standard Oil). By the end of the 1930's the nation was wrecked by depression and within that wreckage were the street railways.

Automobiles had made some inroads, but as we have seen in foriegn countries, that alone would not have killed American traction. The streetcar companies, including Jacksonville's were assesed paving charges for streets they operated in, maintenance, street sweeping and taxes including special railroad assesments. All of this in an atmosphere of complete price controls by the cities and states. The Public Utility Holding Company Act of 1935 caused great difficulties for the streetcar operators given that it made it illegal for a single business to own and operate both electric utilities and transit companies. (Gee, makes you wonder where the idea for that originated).
As the depression finally begain to end with the onset of WWII, streetcar companies were in bad need for major overhauls, maintenance that would have to be done largely on bank borrowed money through railroad trust certificates. Trouble become manifest when banks in most major markets turned them away, as the nations largest depositer was General Motors and their partners. War restrictions further delayed renewals as streetcar suppliers tooled up to produce military hardware.

As the companies were bought up, National City Lines made money on scrapping the rail systems and got kickbacks from all of the rubber tire transit industry suppliers.

QuoteOne of the things that was found out much later, was that the fixed transit systems (rail or trolley-coach) was much more stable to a community, i.e. was not as liable to change route for whatever reason, so that merchants etc. could count on transit being there for customers and employees. This was also true of "heavy rail". The prime example of that was Passaic NJ. The Erie (later Erie Lackawanna) ran down the middle of Main Street. Both the city and the EL wanted out. So it was decided to reroute all of the rail to the Bergen County Line and the former Lackawanna main and bypass downtown Passaic. Well the great revitalization didn't come. When there was no longer frequent rail most of the downtown business dried up and downtown Passaic has never been the same, to the point that some officials said in retrospect it was the worst thing they ever did to their city.

In total there were approximately 900-1,000 street railways and interurban systems that were 'visited' by NCL officials whose job it was to convince the leadership of both the companies and municipalities themselves that 'new' buses were cheaper, more flexible and superior in every way to rail vehicles. This was a sales pitch that had largely fallen appart by 1960, a time in which it seemed nearly all 'new bus' transit systems went broke and were pawned off to an unsuspecting public. We were duped.

QuoteCITIES SERVED BY NATIONAL CITY LINES
The following cities had transit systems which were at one time owned by National City Lines. Included are the years of NCL ownership, and the systems which NCL did convert from streetcars after acquisition. This conversion to buses has sometimes been referred to as "bustitution".

Also included are companies owned by Pacific City Lines, which until 1948 existed as a separate company, although with ties to NCL. Not included are certain companies, which at one time were owned by executives of NCL, while actually separate companies. These are just the mainstream of more direct NCL or PCL ownership, there were also a number of other GM-NCL 'holding companies' each of which owned a host of transit lines.


Aurora/Elgin, IL (1937-1966)
Beaumont, TX (1937-1972) BUSTITUTION!
Bellingham, WA (1938-1946) BUSTITUTION!
Bloomington, IL (1936-1966) BUSTITUTION!
Burbank, CA (1944-1946)
Burlington, IA (1941-1959)
Butte, MT (1938-1946) BUSTITUTION!
Canton, OH (1940-1971)
Cedar Rapids, IA (1937-1966) BUSTITUTION!
Champaign, IL (1936-1966) BUSTITUTION!
Danville, IL (1936-1964) BUSTITUTION!
Davenport, IA (1950-1974)
Decatur, IL (1936-1972) BUSTITUTION!
East St. Louis, IL (1935-1963)
El Paso, TX (1943-1976)
Eureka, CA (1939-1946) BUSTITUTION!
Everett, WA (1938-1946)
Fresno, CA (1939-1946) BUSTITUTION!
Galesburg, IL (1934-1936)
Glendale, CA (1940-1962) BUSTITUTION!
Great Falls, MT (1938-1946) BUSTITUTION!
Houston, TX (1966-1974)
Inglewood, CA (1942-1946)
Jackson, MI (1936-1964)
Jackson, MS (1939-1966)
Joliet, IL (1934-1970)
Kalamazoo, MI (1936-1967)
Kewanee, IL (1936-1937) BUSTITUTION!
Lansing, MI (1936-1937)
LaSalle/Peru, IL (1936-1937)
Lincoln, NB (1942-1971) BUSTITUTION!
Long Beach, CA (1946-1963)
Mobile, AL (1939-1971) BUSTITUTION!
Montgomery, AL (1935-1974) BUSTITUTION!
Oshkosh, WI (1933-1934)
Ottumwa, IA (1941-1951)
Pasadena, CA (1940-1963) BUSTITUTION!
Peoria, IL (1955-1964)
Pontiac, MI (1936-1960)
Port Arthur, TX (1937-1950) BUSTITUTION!
Portsmouth, OH (1939-1959) BUSTITUTION!
Quincy, IL (1936-1966)
Rock Island, IL (1950-1974)
Sacramento, CA (1943-1955) BUSTITUTION!
Saginaw, MI (1936-1962)
Salt Lake City, UT (1944-1968)
San Jose, CA (1938-1963, 1970-1973) BUSTITUTION!
Sioux City, IA (1953-1967)
South Bend, IN (1956-1967)
Spokane, WA (1945-1968)
Stockton, CA (1939-1963) BUSTITUTION!
Tampa, FL (1942-1971)
Terre Haute, IN (1939-1955) BUSTITUTION!
Tulsa, OK (1936-1957)
Wichita Falls, TX (1950-1971)

National City Lines also had significant control of the following additional transit systems.

Baltimore Transit Co. (1944-1972) BUSTITUTION!
Jacksonville - Motor Transit Co. (1932-1945) BUSTITUTION!
Los Angeles Transit Lines (1945-1958) BUSTITUTION!
Oakland - Key System Transit Lines (1946-1960) BUSTITUTION!
Philadelphia Transportation Co. (1955-1966)
St. Louis Public Service Co. (1940-1963) BUSTITUTION!

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: thelakelander on August 23, 2011, 09:13:17 AM
The general public was basically given no choice.  With the viable transit alternative eliminated, and public policies implemented to force the development of low density sprawl, the low guy on the totem pole either had to buy a car or walk.

sure....but the romantic notions of owning a shiny new American car in the 1950s and 1960s and the "freedom" of the American road didn't help....and those were enhanced by TV and movies.

The same thing may now be happening in reverse....teenagers are waiting longer to get their license and many aren't even excited about the "freedom" of driving.

Quote from: tufsu1 on August 23, 2011, 01:39:42 PM

Quote from: thelakelander on August 23, 2011, 09:13:17 AM
The general public was basically given no choice.  With the viable transit alternative eliminated, and public policies implemented to force the development of low density sprawl, the low guy on the totem pole either had to buy a car or walk.

sure....but the romantic notions of owning a shiny new American car in the 1950s and 1960s and the "freedom" of the American road didn't help....and those were enhanced by TV and movies.

The same thing may now be happening in reverse....teenagers are waiting longer to get their license and many aren't even excited about the "freedom" of driving.

I grew up across the tracks.  My family's story is different.   Based on what my parents (graduated from high school in 1964 and 66), uncles/aunts, grandparents, etc.  Their experience was the opposite.  A few had shiny new cars but they still remained in their urban hoods.  Those that didn't still had to rely on transit, which went down the tubes with the elimination of trolley services across the country.  Black flight didn't really start until after the Civil Rights era (late 60s/70s).  However, even with black flight, those with means were not presented with equal choices.  Basically, you could remain in an inner city neighborhood that has always been abused by their respective municipalities (many of Jax's black neighborhoods still had dirt roads in the 1970s) or move to places that really were nicer (maintained parks, decent schools, shopping, lower crime, etc.) at the time.  Many in my family picked up and moved to cities like Buffalo, Detroit, NYC, etc. which had more opportunities for them to raise their incomes than Florida at the time.  Nevertheless, even in those communities they still typically ended up locating in urban heavily black populated neighborhoods.

Across the tracks, shows like "Leave It to Beaver" and "Little House On the Prairie" had little to do with it.  We just wanted equal opportunities to enjoy a quality of life, that up to that point, was only reserved for a certain skin color.

Fast forward to today and I still don't believe that Jacksonville gives people a true equal choice of where to locate and live.  For example, the average person expects some average characteristics to be available in an urban setting that aren't in the burbs.  Those characteristics include maintained parks, a mix of uses, street level vibrancy, a variety of housing options, entertainment and reliable mass transit.  In Jax, we don't have a single environment that offers these things within a compact setting.  Thus, by default, many people end up heading to the Southside.

Lake, Durkeeville, Brentwood, San Marco, 5-Points vicinity of Riverside, Avondale, Fairfax, Murray Hill and Ortega are each close to what you describe, or at least could be. I think at some point I've actually gone to each of these neighborhoods for shopping, theater, parks or something else but its a miniature. With few exceptions we've lost the vibrancy and variety that made these fun neighborhoods to live/explore in. Imagine what they must have been like in 1912-28 at the peak of our own traction company because each one of them was a streetcar suburb.

Amazing that we had double or triple the number of sustainable/walkable suburbs in the teens and twenties of the 20Th Century then we do today. Completely gone are Fairfield, LaVilla and Brooklyn, and frankly Springfield other then its role as a housing area has faded from the scene too.

Other organic barrios within the city have passed into history leaving only a few houses or vacant lots. Yukon, Grand Crossing and Talleyrand come to mind. Beyond the reach of the streetcar system was Wesconnett which had a well defined village into the 1960's. Bypassed by highway 21 it began a death roll. Each of these once had all of the essential stores, churches, parks and services one would encounter in their daily needs.


Stephen, I'm willing to bet that the politicians that pushed the Utilities Holding act we're on the payroll of NCL/GM.
The only point I'd argue with the weki article is the line:

QuoteThese streetcar companies were generally unregulated, while the electric utilities were regulated.

Maybe somewhere they were unregulated, but in my experience, Florida, Oregon, California, Texas, Oklahoma, etc... they were all highly regulated. Florida was typical and the State Railroad Commission set the fares, cities had to approve everything from a single switch in the track to new routes, abandonment's, frequencies, paving, street sweeping, even the landscaping.

OCKLAWAHA

Ock, urban Jax has great bones.  However, we need to invest in the missing components (good public schools, reliable transit, diversity in housing stock, eliminating of public policy that discourages creativity, good parks throughout, etc.) that when combined, form a true vibrant urban environment or a place that justifies substituting residential living space for atmosphere.

Jax has great bones but i can't see this city spending the cash it's going to take to get us where we need to be as far as being a true metropolitan city..not until we have people not passing out building permits like they are candy...the sprawl continues and noones screaming....i'd love to see bussing of children across town to go to school...it's stupid and a waist of time and cash...kids should go to schools nearest to their home...short bus rides are fine but cross town is stupid..i don't know...it just seems like everyone knows what needs to be done but the powers that be don't have the balls to do it...i just see jacksonville staying the goodole boy city it's always been and the cash will continue to be waisted on the haves.

Quote from: thelakelander on August 23, 2011, 05:11:23 PM
Ock, urban Jax has great bones.  However, we need to invest in the missing components (good public schools, reliable transit, diversity in housing stock, eliminating of public policy that discourages creativity, good parks throughout, etc.) that when combined, form a true vibrant urban environment or a place that justifies substituting residential living space for atmosphere.

I completely agree, I just wanted to let those among us that might not know that Jacksonville has in the past had its act together. We were the 'American Tropics' in the 1870's-90's, The City Beautiful in the 1900-1920, Hollywood East, The Gateway City and then seemed to stumble and lose our direction. I think it actually started with a mayors campaign to clean up the city by tossing out all of the film makers, followed closely by the depression and the loss of our streetcar/transit system. From 1940 on we played tag with Tampa and Miami for supremacy and Orlando wasn't even on the radar through 1960. Creativity is exactly what we lack, no neon, no originality, no big or small pull away from the pack ideas, a city hobbled that spends its funds sending business people around the country so we can copy and bring home 'ideas'.

As a result we've become a city of unmaintained roadways, little or no beautification, of failing schools, high crime, and few solutions. The ugly duckling of Florida, the industrial armpit. But we have an answer, we'll ticket kids for riding their bikes on the sidewalks and nail merchants for putting up creative signage and God knows if you park too long downtown, we'll welcome you with a fat fine.

For perspective, when I rode the Pacific Electric from Los Angeles to Long Beach, Watts was the epicenter of activity. 

But I disagree with Garden Guy (again), if we all have the attitude that Jacksonville will 'never fix it's errors' then guess what? We never will. You'll do better with this famous quote which really applies to Jacksonville:

Quote"Success is the ability to go from failure to failure without losing your enthusiasm."
~ Sir Winston Churchill

Simple human scale small policy changes would revolutionize our lives. 

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: stephendare on August 23, 2011, 07:55:05 PM
We need a clean zoning design.  One that looks at efficiency, service, beauty and health, and doesnt try to legislate morality, wealth or class.

performance zoning and form-based codes get at some of these issues

Ock, you know Jacksonville can't afford 19th century relics like rail.  How about something that's just like rail but better?

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/968122049_Va5B6-M.jpg)

Quote from: tufsu1 on August 23, 2011, 08:43:03 PM

Quote from: stephendare on August 23, 2011, 07:55:05 PM
We need a clean zoning design.  One that looks at efficiency, service, beauty and health, and doesnt try to legislate morality, wealth or class.

performance zoning and form-based codes get at some of these issues

The process has started in certain areas. At the beginning of the San Marco by Design process, we were told that a form based code would likely result.  We are stalled a little bit as the PD are getting settled in with the new administration.  Hopefully it will pick back ip again soon.

Yeah, though I think their slogan is 'Just like rail only cheaper', and its obvious that none of them has ever looked in the dictionary.

cheapadjective /CHēp/ 
cheaper, comparative; cheapest, superlative

1.Inexpensive because of inferior quality
- cheap, shoddy goods

2.Miserly; stingy
- she's too cheap to send me a postcard

3.Of little worth because achieved in a discreditable way requiring little effort
- her moment of cheap triumph

4.Deserving of contempt
- a cheap trick

5.Bus Rapid Transit
- a mode that claims all things cheap (couldn't resist that one)

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: stephendare on August 23, 2011, 09:59:08 AM
Which should come as no surprise, since Mayor Haydon Burns hired one of Robert Moses closest associates to help with the redesign of Jacksonville into a 'modern' city.

R Moses.   Now we are "getting somewhere"

Quote from: FrankGruber on August 22, 2011, 11:42:11 AM
Hello, this is Frank Gruber --

The only thing I'd say now is that nothing is inevitable when it comes to patterns of growth.

Quote from: north miami on August 23, 2011, 06:01:17 AM

Planners & Consultants

I recall an instance during my tenure on a St Johns River Water Managementent District Advisory Committee.
A local Planning group office conference room was selected by the District for meeting location.We conducted one meeting at that location.Future unfolding River and Community impacts were clearly posted in the conference room.
I made a point to check point in hopes of garnering Advisory Committee meeting privacy.
There was a backlash over the meeting location which the District heard loud and clear,although in hind sight perhaps we should have stay put!.......

Every single knock down,drag out Enviro/Community episode I have ever been involved in as a citizen and upper level Florida/Northeast Florida Wildlife Federation Board Member has been energized and driven by Planner & Consultant.

Beltway proceedings a dandy narrative.

Brilliant in drawing Tufsu on the carpet,planner &/or consultant

See the thread


Jacksonville mayor comes out against toll road
Tufsu involvement/ n Miami Brannon Chaffee East West Roadways/Wetland Belts thread

I have been upfront on this site that I am a planner...and yes, I work for a consulting firm....do you have a point?

Are planners now going to be cast as an enemy to the people?  You know like terrorists, teachers, policemen, fireman and the dreaded union worker.

Frank Gruber here again. Sorry it's taken me a couple of days to respond, but I came back from my vacation with a cold that has completely knocked me out. Plus work to catch up with.

Again, I want to say how gratified that my Huff Post piece engendered this discussion, and I want to thank Tufsu 1 for posting the article. I've never been to Jacksonville, and I had no idea that there was (a) and urban history there, and (b) people there interested in urbanism. Although there's a guy at the law school there, Mike Lewyn, whom I know through the web who writes a lot about these subjects. He's not one of you is he?

And Stephen Dare -- thanks for plugging my book! (Which I assure you, has all the answers.)

Anyway, there's no way I could respond to all the issues that have come up in the discussion, but I'd like to make a few points, mostly focusing on the "nothing is inevitable" concept. The emptying out of our cities -- and suburbanization and sprawl -- have been described repeatedly, but to my mind, no one has come up with a convincing explanation for why. Not that there needs to one reason why, but the reasons people put forward seem weak to me when analyzed.

Okay, so say people wanted to escape the dirty city, the tenements, etc., but certainly not all or even most of 19th century American cities were "bad areas," and many of the most pleasing, such as the Bronx in New York, took the hardest fall. Maybe there is an American bias in favor of open spaces, the Jeffersonian suspicion of cities that I mention in the article, but what did it take to persuade the American male that what he most wanted to do on a Saturday was yardwork? Think of all those commercials that glorify mowing the lawn; what if there were commercials that glorified sweeping the sidewalk in front of your row house, which is what those little Italian ladies would do every morning in South Philadelphia (my hometown).

Canada had just about the same issues as America when it came to land to expand into, etc., but what explains the different outcomes between Detroit and Toronto? Canada has had suburban expansion, but it didn't come at the expense of the inner core. I don't know what the reasons are; here's a link to an article that attributes the difference to the fact that American cities have more local political power than Canadian cities do; I don't know if this is right, but it's the kind of analysis I believe people need to make: http://tinyurl.com/3u3wzgt.

Interesting that someone on your list brought up cities like Medellin in Colombia -- I was just in Spain, in two small provincial cities, and it's amazing what a better job people do with their cities elsewhere. People have pride in their cities -- other than their sports teams, why do so few people have pride in their cities in America?

Anyway, good luck with what you're doing in Jacksonville.  --Frank

Welcome to the site Frank.  Historically, Jacksonville was a pretty urban mecca for its size.  Unfortunately, a 60 year process of abandoning the core and city/county consolidation has erased that atmosphere locally and to the outside world.  However, there is still a critical mass of residents who would like to see the old city revived and vibrant again and we'll eventually get there.  Although he hasn't commented in this thread, Mike Lewyn does post here from time to time.  Also, the linked article comparing Detroit/Michigan with Toronto/Ontario raises some pretty interesting viewpoints.  I'm not sold on Isidoros Kyrlangitse's solution for Detroit (I think what ails Detroit ails most of America's urban cities and ultimately can't be solved at a local or state level) but can see the correlation between the two going in opposite directions based off public policies in place.

Quote from: FrankGruber on August 24, 2011, 07:20:44 PM
Although there's a guy at the law school there, Mike Lewyn, whom I know through the web who writes a lot about these subjects. He's not one of you is he?

Micael Lewyn has posted on here, but he's not part of this thread....I think he's also left Jacksonville and is now teaching elsewhere.

I read one explanation recently about the effect of reducing the depreciation time of commercial buildings.  It occurred in the 1950s at about the same time that suburbanization began to take off.  Basically, the government incentivized sprawl by encouraging the construction of cheap commercial building.  Land was not depreciable at the same rate, so developers kept pushing farther and farther from the core to find cheap land.  The Canadian government did not do this and therefore did not experience sprawl to anywhere near the same rate as the US.

The solution, it would seem, is a major overhaul of our complicated tax system.

I'm thinking some of our younger readers may not understand that some of the density they were speaking of in 1900 was beyond anything we could imagine today. No AC, poor heat, no sanitation, no running water, outhouses and families stacked on families. Horses, wagons, drays, carriages, and manure coupled with staggering summer heat must have made for conditions that were inhuman. In this light, it is easy to understand why streetcar suburbs seemed like a utopia.

Time to start looking forward. Yeah, some people messed up in the past and for many, the past was awesome (and not so awesome) in many ways. But the world changed, so lets learn from it, do better going forward and make the future better for all.

Not sure about anyone else, but I am looking for a better tomorrow.

Great points. Time to acknowledge, accept, and learn from our mistakes. That way, we won't waste time in repeating them as we strive to improve our community.