This article, as written irks me because I can clearly tell there is still a huge lack of understanding on this project, not only from Brown's administration, but the TU writers and even JTA....which happens to be the major reason I had transportation committee completely remove JTA's name from being associated with it. At this point, I'd prefer they not have access to any mobility fee funds expected to be generated over the next decade to pay for a number of city projects, including this particular streetcar line. Anyway, given the write up, I expect the normal naysayers on the TU board to pop up today, so the comments should be interesting. I just got back into town from California last night, what a welcome back to Jax :D.
http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2011-08-15/story/browns-team-suggests-trolley-system-downtown-jacksonville-would-it-be#comment-455306
Also, here is my reply I just posted to the TU board:
QuoteLet's add a few rational facts into the discussion:
1. The streetcar project is a project of the 2030 mobility plan and mobility fee that was recently adopted by City Council for a particular urban mobility zone in the city. This project would alleviate traffic congestion expected to develop along Park Street and Riverside Avenue (and other streets over the next two decades).
2. Comparing the streetcar to the skyway makes little sense. The skyway struggles for multiple reasons, including the fact that it doesn't penetrate neighborhoods outside of DT. The streetcar would be one of several mass transit projects in the 2035 Long Range Transportation Plan that would provide for better efficient mass transit options across areas of the city with the proper density where more expensive roadway widening projects would destroy the communities and neighborhoods surrounding it.
3. The $71 million price tag is wrong. The mobility plan cost estimate is $50 million for a streetcar running from DT to the Park & King district in Riverside, connecting St. Vincents Medical Center, Five Points, Cummer Museum, Fidelity, BCBS, Brooklyn, Convention Center, CSX, the Landing, Hyatt, the Skyway and a bunch of other destinations.
4. The project would not be paid with taxpayer dollars. The cost of the project would be generated by mobility fees from future development constructed in that particular mobility zone.
5. To learn more about this and other mobility plan funded projects (bike, ped, roadway and transit facilities) , all of which have been discussed publicly for the last 5 years or so, visit:
http://www.coj.net/Departments/Planning-and-Development/Community-Planni...
6. As far as Brown's transition team goes, there's a lot of things in these reports. Transportation wise, there's BRT, dredging the river (that's an $800 million project by itself), and suggestions like not only building the Outer Beltway ($2 billion) but also possibly constructing a Northern Outer Beltway (who knows how many extra billions?). Why cherry pick non-taxpayer funded project (that costs less than the recent overpass at Beach & Kernan) and take it out of content?
Also, what the hell is this?
QuoteDavis and Mann argue that a fixed-route streetcar system with a track is better than the existing buses. A streetcar will attract economic development, encourage people to live and work downtown, and get cars off the road, they say.
But Blaylock, who was also on the transition committee, cautions that Brown will have limited dollars.
"Improving the port will be the No. 1 priority," Blaylock said, "and there's not a lot of money for infrastructure projects right now."
The streetcar project will be funded 100% by the mobility fee over a five to ten year period for this particular mobility zone. This is a completely separate funding mechanism that can't be used for the port. Out of all people and entities in the city, I'd expect my transit authorities to know this and not openly work to torpedo community backed projects like this. Add this to the list of why I'd personally like to see this and other mobility plan projects stay completely within the hands of the City.
The comments on the TU are crazy!
I wouldn't expect the TU comments to be any other way. Luckily, no one is asking taxpayers to pay for this particular mobility plan project. Unfortunately, the article makes it seem differently and confuses it with past and proposed JTA projects (such as BRT and the skyway) that have been funded or maintained with taxpayer dollars.
Talk about a culture shock being in places that argue about where the next transit line will be instead of if is viable at all, to then come back to Jax. I know I lost three hours flying across the country but it feels like that flight may have been a time warp back to 1980, lol.
Yeah, the article was confusing. Thankfully, I know enough about it (thanks to MJ) to understand the project.
Consider the writer and who he writes for Lake. They always have to equate every transit project with the Skyway. Either way it's frustrating. You are right the streetcar does not have to be a JTA capital project. Someone will have to operate it though, either the City, JTA or some other entity.
Yeah it is pretty sad reading the posts in and around your post Lake. Most of these people care about facts- they just want to bitch. Most are so informed that it makes me really sad. Diamonds that prefer to be coal.
actually I don't think the article is that bad...at least it keeps the conversation going
It keeps the conversation going but kind of spins things in a bad confusing light. For example, the transportation committee never suggested a trolley for downtown. Our recommendation was to support the priority projects in the mobility plan which happen to impact every area in Jacksonville. Although, it penetrates DT, this particular streetcar project deals with future traffic congestion leading into downtown in a different mobility zone (Riverside/Murray Hill, etc.).
There was a recommendation for a narrow gauge trolley in downtown by the downtown committee but that is a circus train (a different animal) , not the real thing being funded by the mobility plan and fee. Last, the article attempts to compare the streetcar project with the skyway. They are two totally different animals altogether from their funding and planning to operation.
For us, we can see the difference because we have greater in-depth knowledge on this particular issue. However, for the common person, council representative or Brown administration, I seriously doubt they know the difference on any of these points to make a right decision to take either path. Spins like this could easily result in someone in power attempting to kill the concept even though they have no rational nexus to do so (ex. the skyway extension to San Marco getting taken out of the mobility plan, Rick Scott and HSR, etc.). With that said, I'd rather have no press than bad press.
I actually just saw the paper and the title of the article is completely different from the one on the website. Streetcar is used in the title of the paper version.
Lakelander, you should write up your response and send it to the opinions page. This doesn't seem like a condemnation of the idea so much as a misunderstanding of some parts of the proposal. Obviously no one should pay attention to the comments section over there.
Additionally you could point out that the appropriate comparison for the streetcar isn't the skyway, a better one would be the transport we have running between downtown and Riverside already, including the trolley buses.
Yeah I don't see how the JTA director can talk about the expense involved in a streetcar given their absurd transportation center proposal. And surely he knows where the money is coming from.
The article seems written to incite anger. It brings up the Skyway and doesn't make it clear enough that the money isn't coming from taxpayers.
There's some segment of society you are never, ever going to please if it involves spending money. I'm as conservative as the next guy but give me a break. Unless we want the whole city to look like the University Blvd and Arlington intersection, we have to dump a little money into it. It's like Life After People out here.
Based on what the Brown administration has said generally so far, I would expect a streetcar project to be built and operated by a public-private partnership.
Quote"and there's not a lot of money for infrastructure projects right now."
I agree with this Blaylock statement. I also believe this style of thinking should be applied to local BRT planning. We don't need a massive influx of federal dollars to implement JTA's proposed BRT plan. I'd like to see us take the approach of improving our bus system through system and operation modification, privately funded bus shelters and elimination of duplicate routing.
(http://metro.net/riding_metro/metro_rail/images/Metro-Silver-Line-Map.gif)
Btw, I was just in LA last week and spent some time on their Silver Line BRT. It runs on regular streets/expressway HOV lanes like a regular bus, does not have enhanced stations at all stops, no automatic fare collection system and no real time travel information. However, you knew the bus was coming every 15 minutes (during the weekdays...reliability), it was a different color from other buses (branding), only made stops at limited locations (improved travel time), the route was a nearly a straight line (no route confusion) and every stop had a route map (reliability, no confusion). It was basically a bare bones, no-frills BRT system, yet still worked because of decent headways, branding and reliability.
There is simply no reason that we can't implement such a BRT system on our streets right now, without federal dollars. Imo, doing such would be a great example of working to improve our existing transit by not tapping into already limited infrastructure funds for improvements that can be made without them.
I can send maps. I have access to all of them ;).
Thanks for following up on this. Good work.
So this still wouldn't go to the Stadium District?
Quote from: Bativac on August 15, 2011, 09:49:33 AM
Yeah I don't see how the JTA director can talk about the expense involved in a streetcar given their absurd transportation center proposal.
I think all Blaylock is saying is that infrastructure funds are scarce these days...keep in mind that they've been trying to build pieces of the JRTC for 5+ years and still haven't found any money
Quote from: comncense on August 15, 2011, 10:24:28 AM
So this still wouldn't go to the Stadium District?
the first leg of the streetcar system would be Riverside to downtown....there would also be legs up to Springfield and out to the stadium district as well.
The system is included in the 2035 LRTP as cost feasible....with some parts up and running by 2020.
Quote from: stephendare on August 15, 2011, 10:56:34 AM
What hes doing is sabotaging the project since it didnt come from the Transportation Authority and trying to poison the groundwater with potential supporters.
You know that as well as everyone else does, why masquerade it in some faux pollyanna reframing?
actually I didn't know that...I think if you look back, you'll see that Lakelander also agrees with my interpretation of Blaylock's statement
and btw, the project has come from JTA as well as others....they completed a streetcar pre-feasibility study a few years ago
http://www.jtafla.com/JTAfutureplans/Streetcars/
Be nice if most of you could repost your comments in the TU. While it probably wouldn't convert the Neanderthals in the community, it would demonstrate that some of the community have evolved. Consider it a mission to help lift our city out of the Jurassic period.
OCKLAWAHA
I didn't know Ock was on the transition team! Good news. When this thing happens, they should go ahead and make him the driver and tour guide of it.
QuoteIn cities like Cincinnati and Norfolk, Va., businesses have moved into areas around streetcars, and in Jacksonville, trolleys could help revitalize the downtown, said Robert Mann, a retired engineer on the transition team.
A riverside route is a good place to start also Phillip Randolph.
Yeah, the comments on the TU website are kind of scary. 90% of the people think it would be 'boondoggle' and a 'waste of money'. This, though was by faaaarrrrr, the scariest comment:
"The handfull of people that want to go downtown should buy bikes. The rest of us don't go downtown, don't care about downtown and you are not going to lure us downtown. The drunks, prostitutes, bums, thugs, thieves own downtown. Downtowns are unsafe and dead. Have any of you guys with these great ideas been out to Bartram, St. Johns Town Center, Avondale, San Marco or the Beaches. These are beautiful, clean and safe areas to take your family. Only a fool would load the family up and take them to the filthy stinking downtown. Give me a break. Quit wasting our tax dollars stupid downtown revitilization. It's over. Downtowns are dead. You are living in the past. Wake up. Let it go." quote from rentjax.
This stuff is scary because Jacksonville will never progress with this kind of thinking. I do hope one day that this type of thinking leaves Jacksonville and I will be able to ride a streetcar throughout ALL of the urban core.
Quote from: tufsu1 on August 15, 2011, 10:59:27 AM
Quote from: stephendare on August 15, 2011, 10:56:34 AM
What hes doing is sabotaging the project since it didnt come from the Transportation Authority and trying to poison the groundwater with potential supporters.
You know that as well as everyone else does, why masquerade it in some faux pollyanna reframing?
actually I didn't know that...I think if you look back, you'll see that Lakelander also agrees with my interpretation of Blaylock's statement
and btw, the project has come from JTA as well as others....they completed a streetcar pre-feasibility study a few years ago
http://www.jtafla.com/JTAfutureplans/Streetcars/
The part I didn't like about the comment is it really has no place regarding this particular topic. The funding mechanism for this project can't be shifted to port improvements. To bring port talk and infrastructure funding problems into the discussion makes it sound as if money is coming from taxpayers and being taken away from other needs, which is not true.
The real way it works is if the community in this particular mobility zone doesn't want this particular project, then the other options for the fee they generate are to use them on commuter rail or roadway widening in this zone. Anyone up for widening Park Street or Riverside Avenue to 4 or 6 lanes or blasting a new highway through historic neighborhoods? If so, that's going to cost you a lot more than a context sensitive mass transit based solution. If interested in leaving things status quo and doing nothing, that means the money generated from development in this particular area would then be shifted to transportation projects in other areas of town. Who really wants money generated in their side of town to deal with their transportation issues, shifted to build more highways in Mandarin or near Cecil Field?
Quote from: tufsu1 on August 15, 2011, 10:59:27 AM
Quote from: stephendare on August 15, 2011, 10:56:34 AM
What hes doing is sabotaging the project since it didnt come from the Transportation Authority and trying to poison the groundwater with potential supporters.
You know that as well as everyone else does, why masquerade it in some faux pollyanna reframing?
actually I didn't know that...I think if you look back, you'll see that Lakelander also agrees with my interpretation of Blaylock's statement.
You are probably unaware of a 12Th hour effort by (guess where this came from) RS&H to remove ALL language in the report that mentioned streetcars. The logic was, "We did (stole) the study and that's the end of it, there will be no streetcars in Jacksonville." Add this to Blaylock's statements and you get a whole new perspective. I've been fighting this mostly alone since I first proposed it in 1980, and I have ZERO confidence that they will encourage or even play fair. OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: iMarvin on August 15, 2011, 11:14:12 AM
Yeah, the comments on the TU website are kind of scary. 90% of the people think it would be 'boondoggle' and a 'waste of money'. This, though was by faaaarrrrr, the scariest comment:
"The handfull of people that want to go downtown should buy bikes. The rest of us don't go downtown, don't care about downtown and you are not going to lure us downtown. The drunks, prostitutes, bums, thugs, thieves own downtown. Downtowns are unsafe and dead. Have any of you guys with these great ideas been out to Bartram, St. Johns Town Center, Avondale, San Marco or the Beaches. These are beautiful, clean and safe areas to take your family. Only a fool would load the family up and take them to the filthy stinking downtown. Give me a break. Quit wasting our tax dollars stupid downtown revitilization. It's over. Downtowns are dead. You are living in the past. Wake up. Let it go." quote from rentjax.
I'm totally cool with money being generated in specific areas of town going directly back into those areas on projects supported by those particular areas. Keep DT and surrounding neighborhood tax dollars down here and you'll have no problem finding the cash to improve several quality-of-life issues facing the urban core.
My bold prediction, based on being a lifelong Jacksonville resident, is that the streetcar will never come to pass.
Okay, let me revise that: it will not come to pass in my lifetime. I'm 32 years old. For the next fifty years the only changes to the Jacksonville transportation system will be the defacto shut down of the Skyway (brought about by gradual reductions in service hours and number of stops, justified by "nobody ever uses the Skyway anyway") and changes in the bus routes, not necessarily for the better. Oh, and I predict a less-than-optimal transportation center will be built. It will house the city buses and only the city buses. It will include a new JTA office. It will cost a quarter of a billion dollars.
Quote from: thelakelander on August 15, 2011, 11:19:47 AM
Quote from: iMarvin on August 15, 2011, 11:14:12 AM
Yeah, the comments on the TU website are kind of scary. 90% of the people think it would be 'boondoggle' and a 'waste of money'. This, though was by faaaarrrrr, the scariest comment:
"The handfull of people that want to go downtown should buy bikes. The rest of us don't go downtown, don't care about downtown and you are not going to lure us downtown. The drunks, prostitutes, bums, thugs, thieves own downtown. Downtowns are unsafe and dead. Have any of you guys with these great ideas been out to Bartram, St. Johns Town Center, Avondale, San Marco or the Beaches. These are beautiful, clean and safe areas to take your family. Only a fool would load the family up and take them to the filthy stinking downtown. Give me a break. Quit wasting our tax dollars stupid downtown revitilization. It's over. Downtowns are dead. You are living in the past. Wake up. Let it go." quote from rentjax.
I'm totally cool with money being generated in specific areas of town going directly back into those areas on projects supported by those particular areas. Keep DT and surrounding neighborhood tax dollars down here and you'll have no problem finding the cash to improve several quality-of-life issues facing the urban core.
That's not the scary part. He says "The rest of us don't go downtown, don't care about downtown and you are not going to lure us downtown. The drunks, prostitutes, bums, thugs, thieves own downtown. Downtowns are unsafe and dead." and "Only a fool would load the family up and take them to the filthy stinking downtown. Give me a break. Quit wasting our tax dollars stupid downtown revitilization. It's over. Downtowns are dead. You are living in the past. Wake up. Let it go" This type of thinking is not good. I agree and am fine with money being spent in the areas, but for him to say that we should give up on revitalizing downtown and it's filthy and stinks and there are only thugs, bums, and prostitutes just really makes me kinda scared for the future of Jacksonville because he isn't the only one saying this. I tend to think that most people are happy with Jacksonville the way it is and don't want any change. And then there are some who only want progress and investment in the suburbs. Then you have that VERY small population of people who want downtown Jacksonville to progress and get invested in ALONG with everywhere else. That's the stuff that's scary.
Bativac, You are about the same age that I was when I proposed the streetcar 30 years ago, had I given up the fight the first time JTA stomped all over it, you probably wouldn't be reading anything about streetcars in Jacksonville. Take heart my young friend, NEVER SURRENDER - NEVER GIVE UP!
OCKLAWAHA
iMarvin, I wouldn't worry about this. People say this in every city about downtowns and suburbs. My advice to those who would like to see downtown revitalized would be to stop worrying about trying to appeal to suburbanites and work on appealing to urbanites. A quality metro area should have environments that appeal to all and why bother for suburban support if you don't need their money for revitalization (which I believe we don't)?
Quote from: Ocklawaha on August 15, 2011, 11:41:23 AM
Bativac, You are about the same age that I was when I proposed the streetcar 30 years ago, had I given up the fight the first time JTA stomped all over it, you probably wouldn't be reading anything about streetcars in Jacksonville. Take heart my young friend, NEVER SURRENDER - NEVER GIVE UP!
OCKLAWAHA
I think we're closer than ever. Five years ago, this wasn't even a topic. My prediction is by the end of this decade, you'll see at least two forms of new rail service operating in or through this city.
Quote from: thelakelander on August 15, 2011, 11:52:31 AM
iMarvin, I wouldn't worry about this. People say this in every city about downtowns and suburbs. My advice to those who would like to see downtown revitalized would be to stop worrying about trying to appeal to suburbanites and work on appealing to urbanites. A quality metro area should have environments that appeal to all and why bother for suburban support if you don't need their money for revitalization (which I believe we don't)?
I guess your right.
I know this isn't really about the skyway... but does anyone know how much would it cost to "complete" the network and connect Riverside and the stadium?
Quote from: AFCassidy on August 15, 2011, 12:04:28 PM
I know this isn't really about the skyway... but does anyone know how much would it cost to "complete" the network and connect Riverside and the stadium?
Ball park guess, about $30-$50 million per mile x about 5 miles. OCKLAWAHA
just for context, Ock, how much would it cost to widen a 4 lane HWY to 6 Lanes for the same distance?
A new four lane highway according to 2009 FDOT estimates: $16,787,411/mile x 5 miles = $83,937,055
A new six lane highway according to 2009 FDOT estimates: $20,541,501/mile x 5 miles = $102,707,505
Going from 4 to 6 lanes according to 2009 FDOT estimates: $12,484,412/mile x 5 miles = $62,422,060
Not included in costs:
Intersections/Interchanges, improvements on cross streets, bridges over 20', right-of-way, landscaping, ITS and traffic signals.
The streetcar would come in somewhere between $5 to $15 million/mile depending on the type of technology and number of "frills" included in it.
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2418/1682628194_5a742bc320_z.jpg)
STREETCAR
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-UWoHvhKaJ8c/TklRB41z6pI/AAAAAAAAFSU/Aw9jfzr5O-o/s640/SKYWAY.TU.PHOTO.png)
SKYWAY
What was with this stupid Times-Union Photo? Talk about confusing the subject.
OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: Ocklawaha on August 15, 2011, 11:41:23 AM
Bativac, You are about the same age that I was when I proposed the streetcar 30 years ago, had I given up the fight the first time JTA stomped all over it, you probably wouldn't be reading anything about streetcars in Jacksonville. Take heart my young friend, NEVER SURRENDER - NEVER GIVE UP!
OCKLAWAHA
Ock, I admire your tenacity and enthusiasm. But I think my wife and I are to the point where we'd rather go someplace that has what we're looking for, rather than waiting and hoping that my hometown is somehow going to miraculously come to its senses. I have an attachment to the place. My wife, on the other hand, isn't from here and has zero inclination to stick around.
Older folks here, for the most part, feel like downtown is dead and don't want any money spent revitalizing the area. They have cars and don't want any money spent on public transportation. Younger folks, like myself and my peers, aren't keen on sticking around waiting for the older folks to suddenly come to their senses.
Quote from: thelakelander on August 15, 2011, 11:54:35 AM
I think we're closer than ever. Five years ago, this wasn't even a topic. My prediction is by the end of this decade, you'll see at least two forms of new rail service operating in or through this city.
That's an excellent point. Even though I knew that the transition committee had mentioned these types of projects, I was pretty shocked to see this story in the T-U today.
Quote from: Bativac on August 15, 2011, 01:36:56 PM
Quote from: Ocklawaha on August 15, 2011, 11:41:23 AM
Bativac, You are about the same age that I was when I proposed the streetcar 30 years ago, had I given up the fight the first time JTA stomped all over it, you probably wouldn't be reading anything about streetcars in Jacksonville. Take heart my young friend, NEVER SURRENDER - NEVER GIVE UP!
OCKLAWAHA
Ock, I admire your tenacity and enthusiasm. But I think my wife and I are to the point where we'd rather go someplace that has what we're looking for, rather than waiting and hoping that my hometown is somehow going to miraculously come to its senses. I have an attachment to the place. My wife, on the other hand, isn't from here and has zero inclination to stick around.
Older folks here, for the most part, feel like downtown is dead and don't want any money spent revitalizing the area. They have cars and don't want any money spent on public transportation. Younger folks, like myself and my peers, aren't keen on sticking around waiting for the older folks to suddenly come to their senses.
you know I think things are changing faster than you think but goodbye!
Bativac, I don't blame you. I tend to travel to take care of my fix. However, I do enjoy being a part of change. I wrap up my Jax experience with a quote from the movie Troy:
"If you stay in Larissa, you will find peace. You will find a wonderful woman, and you will have sons and daughters, who will have children. And they'll all love you and remember your name. But when your children are dead, and their children after them, your name will be forgotten... If you go to Troy, glory will be yours. They will write stories about your victories in thousands of years! And the world will remember your name. But if you go to Troy, you will never come back... for your glory walks hand-in-hand with your doom. And I shall never see you again."
Crazy as it sounds, I kind of see fighting to turn Jax into something truly special in the same light.
hahaha, Let the, "Lakelander as the new, black Brad Pitt" discussion start. ;D
Tell ya what.. John Malseed sure is in a huff!
Quote from: RiversideLoki on August 15, 2011, 02:44:09 PM
Tell ya what.. John Malseed sure is in a huff!
http://www.youtube.com/v/sNPnbI1arSE?
I'm cool with Malseed. I love debates where you can run circles around someone because they refuse to dig into or present factual data. If I can convince just one silent observer, during such an exercise, then I've done my good deed for the day.
Quoterather than waiting and hoping that my hometown is somehow going to miraculously come to its senses.
Nothing against you personally.. but frankly, this town needs more people that will
make it happen and less people sitting around
waiting for it to happen.
No matter where you live or what you do in life... you have to be the change you want to see. No one else is going to do it for you.
Quote from: fieldafm on August 15, 2011, 03:07:55 PM
Quoterather than waiting and hoping that my hometown is somehow going to miraculously come to its senses.
Nothing against you personally.. but frankly, this town needs more people that will make it happen and less people sitting around waiting for it to happen.
No matter where you live or what you do in life... you have to be the change you want to see. No one else is going to do it for you.
True, but if your city leaders & the population in general aren't on the same page, then it's extremely difficult (almost impossible). You can be out there everyday, but if the people don't want it, it'll never happen. And this place is a very "we like things the way they are" city from what I've gathered the last few years of being here.
Jacksonville is so big & spread out now, that unfortunately hardly anyone in the "city of Jacksonville" actually cares about downtown. They have no vested interest in it being a viable place that you would visit (or live in) day to day.
Its a horrible byproduct from our uncontrolled sprawl & growth, that I'm not sure how you fix.
There is certainly change we can accomplish. Take a look at Orlando. They have a similar, if not worse, sprawl problem than we do and an even higher percentage of its metro area that didn't care about downtown due to all the other things to do in the area. And they had the additional problem of a significantly higher percentage of their metro area (and therefore their tax base) living outside the city limits and even Orange County. And yet they've managed a very impressive revitalization of their downtown over the last ten years or so, and it's alive at all times of day.
What I'm saying is, don't sell people short. There are enough of us who care to sustain at least a modest revival. If Orlando managed to do it, there is absolutely no reason we can't. Whether or not it's worth it to you to keep fighting the good fight, or to stick around to see the fruit of your labors, it is an attainable goal.
QuoteTrue, but if your city leaders & the population in general aren't on the same page, then it's extremely difficult (almost impossible). You can be out there everyday, but if the people don't want it, it'll never happen. And this place is a very "we like things the way they are" city from what I've gathered the last few years of being here.
I am a nobody. I live in a very unassuming house. I do not come from money. I have very little of my own frankly and I do not have a namesake becoming of high society. I am the anti-thesis of the 'good ol boy' network here in town.
But just last week I secured buy-in from local merchants and JSO regarding a street festival in Riverside in September and sparked an introduction that I believe will bring life to a spot downtown that had none before.
All you have to do is try. If you are motivated, change is actually quite attainable.
Quote
But just last week I secured buy-in from local merchants and JSO regarding a street festival in Riverside in September and sparked an introduction that I believe will bring life to a spot downtown that had none before.
Cool- can't wait to hear more about this!
I am baffled by the fascination with taking the Skyway to the stadium. There is plenty of on site parking for all the events NOT at the stadium. And there is a viable working system in place to get people to the stadium now in a cost effective manner for the 10-15 days the stadium is actually in use.
If the Shipyards project was in play, or the Fairgrounds property was going to be leveraged for a hotel/condo project or simply anything that has people in that area 365, rather than a dozen days a year - then maybe. But we don't. Longterm if a new Matthews Bridge is built and the Skyway was extended across the river to Regency/Arlington - sure. There are potential riders there.
I'm all for adding to the Skyway IF it goes somewhere where there are people to use it daily - Springfield/Shands; San Marco (although I do wonder about ridership from a SM extension). Perhaps an extension from the SM station to Baptist.
Someone - I think it was Ock - suggested awhile back about putting the streetcar line up the middle of Main St. I still think that's a viable option. Main St. is coming along. Movign in the right direction and a streetcar lien could help development there. Adding a line into Riverside also makes sense.
But I think we need to put this idea of a Skyway extension to the Sports Complex on hold indefinitiely. To me, it just doesn't makes sense (financially or practically). Ride the stadium shuttle - it works just fine and has ever since the Jaguars have been in town. Not to mention save us $100M
To me a skyway extension to the stadium begins to make sense if you've invested in pentrating other areas of town with better mass transit first. If not, you still have the same old problem of driving tons of miles and fighting through what gridlock Jax does have, only to park your car in downtown and take a ride for the last mile. At that point, you're better off simply driving to the stadium.
Didnt they tear up some old street car tracks on Main street when doing the streetscape project? How would we get a street car down main now since there are medians in the way?
Quote from: duvaldude08 on August 15, 2011, 05:42:36 PM
Didnt they tear up some old street car tracks on Main street when doing the streetscape project? How would we get a street car down main now since there are medians in the way?
I don't think the median really determines anything. A single line streetcar track could probably be buily in side it. I don't think Main St is wide enough to have a line on both side of the streets, though.
They would have to rip Main back up and either rebuild it or place a double track system that shares lanes with cars. Another option would be to run it a block east up Hubbard.
Quote from: exnewsman on August 15, 2011, 05:25:46 PM
I am baffled by the fascination with taking the Skyway to the stadium. There is plenty of on site parking for all the events NOT at the stadium. And there is a viable working system in place to get people to the stadium now in a cost effective manner for the 10-15 days the stadium is actually in use.
... Ride the stadium shuttle - it works just fine and has ever since the Jaguars have been in town. Not to mention save us $100M
I rode the shuttle to/from the Eagles/Jags' game last September and can't say I was too impressed. Easy enough to get there, but took nearly an hour to go the 2.2 miles from the stadium to the drop-off near Prime Osborne afterwards. Not the worst system in the world, but seems pretty silly to be sitting on a bus in traffic for an hour to go 2.2 miles when Jacksonville has a great system that, if extended 1 more mile, would make that same trip in 5 mins...all the time.
The primary benefit of an efficient public transportation (and one that seems to be most overlooked by the opponents) relates to the workforce. Whenever I ride the skyway, I am one of the few who do so by choice. Most don't have access to a car or can't drive one. So, what we seem to be telling them is - don't hang out at Hemming Plaza all day, go get a job! But when you do, expect to take 2 to 3 hrs to get to and from work.
I met a guy recently on a hot Saturday waiting for the train to cross San Marco Blvd. He lived on the north side and was working on the south bank. I asked him why he was on this side of the tracks. Because it was Saturday, the skyway was not running. To get to Kings Avenue Station he would have had to go all the way to Regency and back. So he takes the bus to San Marco Square and then walks back up. Surely we can do better than that.
Stories like this are found onboard every bus in town Doug. Bottom line is that JTA is FIRST a highway builder/agency and SECOND a mass transit operator, historically like trying to be a Baptist and Catholic at the same time, similar but often at odds. The highway press never misses a cheap shot at the transit media and transit is microscopic in a side by side compareson. JTA NEEDS TO BE OUT OF THE TRANSIT BUSINESS and TRANSIT NEEDS TO BE A LOCAL CITY AGENCY.
OCKLAWAHA
I'm starting to come around with Ock on this one. The expiration of the gas tax can't come fast enough, imo. It's going to force a complete change on how roadway building and transit is handled in this town, which is well overdue. Can't wait for the debates to go mainstream.
I've seen it all now. A guy has actually made an argument that Portland, San Diego and Charlotte are all transit failures that have not stimulated any TOD. I guess what I rode on, walked through and photographed last week was pure fantasy.
I guess I photoshopped the San Diego images posted below:
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/San-Diego-2011/i-dXGVsSR/0/L/P1490301-L.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/San-Diego-2011/i-dsBbR74/0/L/P1480987-L.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Transit/Pacific-Surfliner-2011/i-4rvwx8M/0/L/P1490330-L.jpg)
Seriously lake, you should submit your concerns in a letter for the opinions page. At least there you have the potential to reach some folks without such deeply entrenched backwardness. You'll get nothing but an ulcer continuing to spar with the simps in the comments section.
Someone needs to convince the TU to do a "real" story on the benefit of streetcars and examine why it was recommended by the transition committee. Guess that is too much to ask from the TU.
Quote from: dougskiles on August 15, 2011, 09:21:32 PM
The primary benefit of an efficient public transportation (and one that seems to be most overlooked by the opponents) relates to the workforce. Whenever I ride the skyway, I am one of the few who do so by choice. Most don't have access to a car or can't drive one. So, what we seem to be telling them is - don't hang out at Hemming Plaza all day, go get a job! But when you do, expect to take 2 to 3 hrs to get to and from work.
I met a guy recently on a hot Saturday waiting for the train to cross San Marco Blvd. He lived on the north side and was working on the south bank. I asked him why he was on this side of the tracks. Because it was Saturday, the skyway was not running. To get to Kings Avenue Station he would have had to go all the way to Regency and back. So he takes the bus to San Marco Square and then walks back up. Surely we can do better than that.
There are quite a few changes coming next month for the southside services. I don't use them, but one of the biggest things is they're really looking at starting saturday service for the skyway because the newest proposed route (that combines 3 others) terminates at the KSS M-F and they really don't want to change the route just for the weekend because of the skyway. This was per Kent Stover & Liz Peal.
Although, even though that sounds like a good sign, neither of them were familiar enough with the skyway to recommend options for existing passengers. There was one lady at the meeting who was full of piss and vinegar because she couldn't get to the X-4 in the afternoon from Rosa Park without a 6-8 block walk. After listening to Kent try and explain how she could catch this bus or this bus or this bus, I simply explained to her that she could hop on the skyway at RP, get off at Central, cross the street and meet the X-4, and based on her arrival time she would have a 10-15 window once getting to Rosa Park - more than ample time and it will save her about 45 minutes each day - and she only has to drive to the K-mart and not the OP Mall.
So while I'm glad that they're trying to get Saturday service, I'm really skeptical.
Quote from: thelakelander on August 15, 2011, 11:59:10 PM
I've seen it all now. A guy has actually made an argument that Portland, San Diego and Charlotte are all transit failures that have not stimulated any TOD. I guess what I rode on, walked through and photographed last week was pure fantasy.
I guess I photoshopped the San Diego images posted below:
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/San-Diego-2011/i-dXGVsSR/0/L/P1490301-L.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/San-Diego-2011/i-dsBbR74/0/L/P1480987-L.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Transit/Pacific-Surfliner-2011/i-4rvwx8M/0/L/P1490330-L.jpg)
Well Portland only had $3 BILLION in development within 3 blocks of their system. Maybe the failure threshold is $4B???
Quote from: blandman on August 15, 2011, 07:52:58 PM
Quote from: exnewsman on August 15, 2011, 05:25:46 PM
I am baffled by the fascination with taking the Skyway to the stadium. There is plenty of on site parking for all the events NOT at the stadium. And there is a viable working system in place to get people to the stadium now in a cost effective manner for the 10-15 days the stadium is actually in use.
... Ride the stadium shuttle - it works just fine and has ever since the Jaguars have been in town. Not to mention save us $100M
I rode the shuttle to/from the Eagles/Jags' game last September and can't say I was too impressed. Easy enough to get there, but took nearly an hour to go the 2.2 miles from the stadium to the drop-off near Prime Osborne afterwards. Not the worst system in the world, but seems pretty silly to be sitting on a bus in traffic for an hour to go 2.2 miles when Jacksonville has a great system that, if extended 1 more mile, would make that same trip in 5 mins...all the time.
I that was an anomoly. I've NEVER had the trip take more than 15 minutes in either direction. Nor have I heard anyone complain about an hour trip on the stadium shuttle. It's one of the smoothest running operations that the JTA has.