"My own view is that Obama should have played the 14th Amendment card, using its language about “the validity of the public debt†to unilaterally raise the debt ceiling. Yes, he would have infuriated the Republicans, but so what? They already view him as the Antichrist."
The Bullies at work:
Tea Party's War on America
By JOE NOCERA
Published: August 1, 2011
You know what they say: Never negotiate with terrorists. It only encourages them.
These last few months, much of the country has watched in horror as the Tea Party Republicans have waged jihad on the American people. Their intransigent demands for deep spending cuts, coupled with their almost gleeful willingness to destroy one of America’s most invaluable assets, its full faith and credit, were incredibly irresponsible. But they didn’t care. Their goal, they believed, was worth blowing up the country for, if that’s what it took.
Like ideologues everywhere, they scorned compromise [Ideologues who are coincidentally awash with rich, corporate lobbyists money.]. When John Boehner, the House speaker, tried to cut a deal with President Obama that included some modest revenue increases, they humiliated him. After this latest agreement was finally struck on Sunday night â€" amounting to a near-complete capitulation by Obama â€" Tea Party members went on Fox News to complain that it only called for $2.4 trillion in cuts, instead of $4 trillion. It was head-spinning.
All day Monday, the blogosphere and the talk shows mused about which party would come out ahead politically. Honestly, who cares? What ought to matter is not how these spending cuts will affect our politicians, but how they’ll affect the country. And I’m not even talking about the terrible toll $2.4 trillion in cuts will take on the poor and the middle class. I am talking about their effect on America’s still-ailing economy.
America’s real crisis is not a debt crisis. It’s an unemployment crisis. Yet this agreement not only doesn’t address unemployment, it’s guaranteed to make it worse. (Incredibly, the Democrats even abandoned their demand for extended unemployment benefits as part of the deal.) As Mohamed El-Erian, the chief executive of the bond investment firm Pimco, told me, fiscal policy includes both a numerator and a denominator. “The numerator is debt,†he said. “But the denominator is growth.†He added, “What we have done is accelerate forward, in a self-inflicted manner, the numerator. And, in the process, we have undermined the denominator.†Economic growth could have gone a long way toward shrinking the deficit, while helping put people to work. The spending cuts will shrink growth and raise the likelihood of pushing the country back into recession.
Inflicting more pain on their countrymen doesn’t much bother the Tea Party Republicans, as they’ve repeatedly proved. What is astonishing is that both the president and House speaker are claiming that the deal will help the economy. Do they really expect us to buy that? We’ve all heard what happened in 1937 when Franklin Roosevelt, believing the Depression was over, tried to rein in federal spending. Cutting spending spiraled the country right back into the Great Depression, where it stayed until the arrival of the stimulus package known as World War II. That’s the path we’re now on. Our enemies could not have designed a better plan to weaken the American economy than this debt-ceiling deal.
One thing Roosevelt did right during the Depression was legislate into being a social safety net to soften the blows that a free-market economy can mete out in tough times. During this recession, it’s as if the government is going out of its way to make sure the blows are even more severe than they have to be. The debt-ceiling debate reflects a harsher, less empathetic America. It’s sad to see.
My own view is that Obama should have played the 14th Amendment card, using its language about “the validity of the public debt†to unilaterally raise the debt ceiling. Yes, he would have infuriated the Republicans, but so what? They already view him as the Antichrist. Legal scholars believe that Congress would not have been able to sue to overturn his decision. Inexplicably, he chose instead a course of action that maximized the leverage of the Republican extremists.
Assuming the Senate passes the bill on Tuesday, the debt ceiling will be a nonissue until after the next election. But the debilitating deficit battles are by no means over. Thanks to this deal, a newly formed supercommittee of Congress is supposed to target another $1.2 trillion to $1.5 trillion in cuts by late November. If those cuts don’t become law by Dec. 23, automatic across-the-board cuts will be imposed, including deep reductions in defense spending.
As has been explained ad nauseam, the threat of defense cuts is supposed to give the Republicans an incentive to play fair with the Democrats in the negotiations. But with our soldiers still fighting in Afghanistan, which side is going to blink if the proposed cuts threaten to damage national security? Just as they did with the much-loathed bank bailout, which most Republicans spurned even though financial calamity loomed, the Democrats will do the responsible thing. Apparently, that’s their problem.
For now, the Tea Party Republicans can put aside their suicide vests. But rest assured: They’ll have them on again soon enough. After all, they’ve gotten so much encouragement.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/02/opinion/the-tea-partys-war-on-america.html
So we can now call the tea party people terrorist?
Quote from: Garden guy on August 02, 2011, 12:24:38 PM
So we can now call the tea party people terrorist?
Only if one wishes to demonstrate they don't want to be taken seriously.
My vote for Most Sensational Thread Title of the Year!!!!!
I don't see anyting wrong with the title...they spin stuff about our president which are lies and turned truth...would'nt that be concidered social and political terrorism and should they get a pass on thier lies and untruths?
That whole 'taken seriously' could also go for those too lazy or too ignorant careless with their lack of spell/grammar check.
While this is a tad on the personal attack level, I feel it's relevant based on the attack that GG places against the right on every comment he makes. Maybe GG, you should have paid more attention in english and grammar and civics than listening to the librel slant that all of your hippie-lettuce smoking buddies were feeding you and then you could attempt to post a fact-based, relevant statement.
Well at least the progressive community has found someone that they can classify as a terrorist
Like maybe that Norwegian guy?
Disagree with the Liberal view and your either classified as a racist, or now a terrorist. Others nasty names to follow im sure. Its the liberal way......name calling and hate speech.
Name-calling aside, If I loved my wife the way those "Republicans" love their country, I'd be in jail for sure.
Right, how dare they insist we stop spending money we dont have supporting liberal created, never ending, feel good, corrupt social welfare programs. Certainly, they are terrorist. And im sure you love your country more than Republicans as long as its giving you what you want, when you want it .
I love God, my wife, my children and my country.
I do not love taking back money that I've already promised to pay.
If Congress is having second thoughts about debts that it has already incurred, why does that give them the right to throw everybody into the crapper?
Quote from: Dashing Dan on August 02, 2011, 06:20:48 PM
I love God, my wife, my children and my country.
I do not love taking back money that I've already promised to pay.
If Congress is having second thoughts about debts that it has already incurred, why does that give them the right to throw everybody into the crapper?
So true! As the article says:
QuoteOne thing Roosevelt did right during the Depression was legislate into being a social safety net to soften the blows that a free-market economy can mete out in tough times. During this recession, it’s as if the government is going out of its way to make sure the blows are even more severe than they have to be. The debt-ceiling debate reflects a harsher, less empathetic America. It’s sad to see.
And here is the warning hard-core Republicans need to remember (it is so sad to see us making the same mistake again):
QuoteInflicting more pain on their countrymen doesn’t much bother the Tea Party Republicans, as they’ve repeatedly proved. What is astonishing is that both the president and House speaker are claiming that the deal will help the economy. Do they really expect us to buy that?
We’ve all heard what happened in 1937 when Franklin Roosevelt, believing the Depression was over, tried to rein in federal spending. Cutting spending spiraled the country right back into the Great Depression, where it stayed until the arrival of the stimulus package known as World War II. That’s the path we’re now on. Our enemies could not have designed a better plan to weaken the American economy than this debt-ceiling deal.
Hi Honey. I know you didn't ask for it and I'm not sure that you even want it, but I just brought home this nice Iraq war for you. I think that it's going to pay for itself so I didn't put anything aside for it in our family budget. If it doesn't pay for itself, then I'll just put it on our credit card. Then if the balance on the credit card goes up to more than we can ever pay back, I'll ask the bank to lower our credit limit down to some more reasonable amount, and I'll take some of the money that we already owe for hospital bills, and I'll use that money to pay our credit card down to just a little bit beneath that new limit.
I just hope that I don't get arrested for doing any of this.
The Tea Party won some congressional seats.
They were sent there to cut spending. (By the voters)
It is un-American (at least it used to be) to cut spending by not paying your obligations.
The Tea Party now finds itselfwith no seat at the table when the real spending and cutting negotiations commence. We'll get DC insiders to do the negotiations. The same people who have been in congress for my entire adult life.
Maybe they'll make some real headway regarding the deficit, debt, and economy...
....RIGHT!
Another thought in the form of a question: Did those who voted for the Stupor Congress do so as to be able to claim they played no part in the continuation of more of the same?
I don't understand how any program that pays in at the minimum and pays out at the maximum and is guaranteed can be considered a sustainable program. Yes, I'm talking about pensions, social security and the like.
I also don't understand how offering the top money makers more incentives to lessen their tax burdens is a self-sustaining program.
So in theory, both the repubs and the dems are using the same non-sustainable trickle down theory, but they word it differently. Neither is achievable in the long run. They are both complete pyramid schemes and the ones that lose are the ones that are owed when it all blows up.
The major problem that I see is that neither side is willing to acknowledge the faultiness of their own theory. Especially after only 50 years, it's completely transparent that neither system will work for the long run. Wealthy repubs will find a way to not trickle their benefits down to the ones who need it and under the dems theory, the government is getting way to bloated to serve itself and the people. Someone's going to lose. And it's not the ones that cast the votes in the senate or the house. It's all of us that cast our votes in precincts across the nation. We are in a lose-lose situation and the only way out, IMO, is to blow it completely up and start fresh.
Flat taxes on a sliding scale versus gross income, revamp the SS and medicare to pay for those who've already put in the money and find a better way for those who are still working on it, pension plans - let them fund with the market like every other 401k. Eliminate the guaranteed pensions for government service - it used to be a position to serve your country, but know it's an avenue to get rich, and face it, by the time these guys hit the national level, they're already budding millionaires, why would any of them ever vote for a tax increase for the rich?
Quote from: Dashing Dan on August 02, 2011, 07:19:20 PM
Hi Honey. I know you didn't ask for it and I'm not sure that you even want it, but I just brought home this nice Iraq war for you. I think that it's going to pay for itself so I didn't put anything aside for it in our family budget. If it doesn't pay for itself, then I'll just put it on our credit card. Then if the balance on the credit card goes up to more than we can ever pay back, I'll ask the bank to lower our credit limit down to some more reasonable amount, and I'll take some of the money that we already owe for hospital bills, and I'll use that money to pay our credit card down to just a little bit beneath that new limit.
I just hope that I don't get arrested for doing any of this.
The problem with your humorous scenario is that your wife actually agreed with it... in fact she continues to this day to authorize spending on it. Better yet... she has decided to expand your spending while for the past two years has decided to NOT raise the rent on her highest income tenants. (She talks a good game about raising the rent).
So don't feel bad Dan... it certainly is not all your fault.
Quote from: BridgeTroll on August 03, 2011, 06:54:57 AM
Quote from: Dashing Dan on August 02, 2011, 07:19:20 PM
Hi Honey. I know you didn't ask for it and I'm not sure that you even want it, but I just brought home this nice Iraq war for you. I think that it's going to pay for itself so I didn't put anything aside for it in our family budget. If it doesn't pay for itself, then I'll just put it on our credit card. Then if the balance on the credit card goes up to more than we can ever pay back, I'll ask the bank to lower our credit limit down to some more reasonable amount, and I'll take some of the money that we already owe for hospital bills, and I'll use that money to pay our credit card down to just a little bit beneath that new limit.
I just hope that I don't get arrested for doing any of this.
The problem with your humorous scenario is that your wife actually agreed with it... in fact she continues to this day to authorize spending on it. Better yet... she has decided to expand your spending while for the past two years has decided to NOT raise the rent on her highest income tenants. (She talks a good game about raising the rent).
So don't feel bad Dan... it certainly is not all your fault.
I tricked her into accepting a gift that she didn't want, need or even ask for, by persuading her that it wasn't really going to cost anything.
Quote from: RMHoward on August 02, 2011, 05:19:52 PM
Right, how dare they insist we stop spending money we dont have supporting liberal created, never ending, feel good, corrupt social welfare programs. Certainly, they are terrorist. And im sure you love your country more than Republicans as long as its giving you what you want, when you want it .
What part of Iraq, Afghanistan, and tax-cuts for the wealthy were "liberal" policies again?
Last I checked your boi George W. did all of that.
But don't let the facts get in the way of making up your mind or anything.
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on August 03, 2011, 07:43:13 AM
Quote from: RMHoward on August 02, 2011, 05:19:52 PM
Right, how dare they insist we stop spending money we dont have supporting liberal created, never ending, feel good, corrupt social welfare programs. Certainly, they are terrorist. And im sure you love your country more than Republicans as long as its giving you what you want, when you want it .
What part of Iraq, Afghanistan, and tax-cuts for the wealthy were "liberal" policies again?
Last I checked your boi George W. did all of that.
But don't let the facts get in the way of making up your mind or anything.
Republicans could care less about facts...GW and his people did all this bs to the country and everyone thinks things are A OK....wtf....lost...just lost people are.
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on August 03, 2011, 07:43:13 AM
Quote from: RMHoward on August 02, 2011, 05:19:52 PM
Right, how dare they insist we stop spending money we dont have supporting liberal created, never ending, feel good, corrupt social welfare programs. Certainly, they are terrorist. And im sure you love your country more than Republicans as long as its giving you what you want, when you want it .
What part of Iraq, Afghanistan, and tax-cuts for the wealthy were "liberal" policies again?
Last I checked your boi George W. did all of that.
Well, your boys held both houses of congress during "my boi" Bush's term as President. They held the purse strings and allocated the funds. Thats how it works here. Yes, it was Bush's decision to go to war. At that time, we were united in our cause, including your boys and girls Reid, Pelosi, other spineless ilk, etc. Its only after the fact that your kind deny involvement, regardless of what the facts say. So keep on blaming Bush for your party's stupidity. Your boy, the "talking suit" will continue to be clueless and an embarrassment to our country.
But don't let the facts get in the way of making up your mind or anything.
Quote from: Dashing Dan on August 03, 2011, 07:25:24 AM
Quote from: BridgeTroll on August 03, 2011, 06:54:57 AM
Quote from: Dashing Dan on August 02, 2011, 07:19:20 PM
Hi Honey. I know you didn't ask for it and I'm not sure that you even want it, but I just brought home this nice Iraq war for you. I think that it's going to pay for itself so I didn't put anything aside for it in our family budget. If it doesn't pay for itself, then I'll just put it on our credit card. Then if the balance on the credit card goes up to more than we can ever pay back, I'll ask the bank to lower our credit limit down to some more reasonable amount, and I'll take some of the money that we already owe for hospital bills, and I'll use that money to pay our credit card down to just a little bit beneath that new limit.
I just hope that I don't get arrested for doing any of this.
The problem with your humorous scenario is that your wife actually agreed with it... in fact she continues to this day to authorize spending on it. Better yet... she has decided to expand your spending while for the past two years has decided to NOT raise the rent on her highest income tenants. (She talks a good game about raising the rent).
So don't feel bad Dan... it certainly is not all your fault.
I tricked her into accepting a gift that she didn't want, need or even ask for, by persuading her that it wasn't really going to cost anything.
You don't give your fictional wife enough credit. She is a smart girl... she knew exactly what she was getting into... in fact... you and her had many discussions about it. Better yet... many of your closest neighbors also thought it was the right thing to do. You really should stop blaming yourself...
Quote from: BridgeTroll on August 03, 2011, 08:29:47 AM
You don't give your fictional wife enough credit. She is a smart girl... she knew exactly what she was getting into... in fact... you and her had many discussions about it. Better yet... many of your closest neighbors also thought it was the right thing to do. You really should stop blaming yourself...
I lied to her about why we needed it, what it would cost, and how I would pay for it.
Quote from: BridgeTroll on August 03, 2011, 08:29:47 AM
You don't give your fictional wife enough credit. She is a smart girl... she knew exactly what she was getting into... in fact... you and her had many discussions about it. Better yet... many of your closest neighbors also thought it was the right thing to do. You really should stop blaming yourself...
Many of my closest neighbors lost their jobs over this.
Quote from: Dashing Dan on August 03, 2011, 08:35:18 AM
Quote from: BridgeTroll on August 03, 2011, 08:29:47 AM
You don't give your fictional wife enough credit. She is a smart girl... she knew exactly what she was getting into... in fact... you and her had many discussions about it. Better yet... many of your closest neighbors also thought it was the right thing to do. You really should stop blaming yourself...
I lied to her about why we needed it, what it would cost, and how I would pay for it.
If that is how you feel then nothing I can say will change your mind. Meanwhile... your wife continues on a spending spree. Despite your attempts to convince her to change her ways she cannot help herself. Perhaps an intervention is in order...
I'm the one on the spending spree not my wife.
Besides the war there are plenty of dumb things I've bought that my wife knows little or nothing about.
Even though I duped her, my wife is perfectly willing to increase the amount that we are paying each month on our credit card debt, but I refuse to allow that to happen.
Quote from: Dashing Dan on August 03, 2011, 09:57:28 AM
I'm the one on the spending spree not my wife.
Besides the war there are plenty of dumb things I've bought that my wife knows little or nothing about.
Even though I duped her, my wife is perfectly willing to increase the amount that we are paying each month on our credit card debt, but I refuse to allow that to happen.
If you think your wife does'nt know what you are up to... you are fooling yourself... (in fact deep down... she agrees)
Regardless... it looks and sounds like a pretty dysfunctional family... :)
Back to the thread, calling elected representatives names because their views do not reflect yours is a childish and ignorant act. Neither party seems to be willing or able to stop the Federal spending spree. The "Tea Party", which is actually not one party but thousands of local and regional organizations, is the only entity that is acting in the interests of the country. Radical? Hardly, Constitutional government, spending within ones means and reasonable taxation are the most basic American values IMHO. The radicals are those that believe that current Federal spending and debt (or even more) can result in anything but the failure of the Federal government itself.
Whether or not it's name calling, my view is that many or most of those in the Tea Party would fit this ~ 100-year-old definition of a fanatic.
"A fanatic is a man that does what he thinks the Lord would do if He knew the facts of the case." â€"Finley Peter Dunne (1867 - 1936)
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on August 03, 2011, 07:43:13 AM
Quote from: RMHoward on August 02, 2011, 05:19:52 PM
Right, how dare they insist we stop spending money we dont have supporting liberal created, never ending, feel good, corrupt social welfare programs. Certainly, they are terrorist. And im sure you love your country more than Republicans as long as its giving you what you want, when you want it .
What part of Iraq, Afghanistan, and tax-cuts for the wealthy were "liberal" policies again?
Last I checked your boi George W. did all of that.
But don't let the facts get in the way of making up your mind or anything.
Obama has moved a lot on pulling out of Iraq and Afghanistan but we should be gone already and he has to own that. Obama extended the Bush tax cuts so I call them the Obama tax cut's now.
They were not his policies but he has not done enough to end them. The tax cuts are our deficit problem and we have not gained any advance in our national security since Saddam was captured. I don't think our killing Osama was a direct effect of prosecuting those wars.
Food for thought:
http://www.cato-at-liberty.org/stop-the-hate/#utm_source=Cato+Institute+Emails&utm_campaign=3e1a2e6f3a-Cato_Today&utm_medium=email (http://www.cato-at-liberty.org/stop-the-hate/#utm_source=Cato+Institute+Emails&utm_campaign=3e1a2e6f3a-Cato_Today&utm_medium=email)
I used to admire David Boaz and his writing, but in the past decade he has become nothing more than a mouthpiece for the Koch brothers.
He is clearly a terrorist...
They may not be terrorists but I wouldn't call them patriots.
As long as they are willing to bring us all down if we don't bend to their will, it's pretty obvious that they love each other more than they love our country.
Quote from: Dog Walker on August 04, 2011, 12:35:04 PM
I used to admire David Boaz and his writing, but in the past decade he has become nothing more than a mouthpiece for the Koch brothers.
Whether he's speaking for the Koch brothers or for George Soros, can you really find fault with what he's saying here? We heard voices on the left going into absolute hysterics a few months ago when Gabby Giffords and others got shot - blaming the incident in part on hateful rhetoric. Now some of the same people are engaging in...yes, hateful rhetoric. It's just pandering to our basest instincts and emotions, and it is not at all helpful in advancing any cause or agenda, other than partisanship. I hope that one day the politicians on both sides (or should I say all sides) will rise above this kind of nonsense, but since the public seems to have an appetite for it I doubt that will ever happen.
Actually DD, it is the view of the TP that the current policies of the USG are "bringing us all down" and that their common sense solutions are the only honest way out of our current financial predicament. As I watch our economy spiral downhill, I can't help but wonder if our politicians can really address our problems without the games and one upmanship that seem to be necessary for them.
Quote from: NotNow on August 04, 2011, 05:56:47 PM
Actually DD, it is the view of the TP that the current policies of the USG are "bringing us all down" and that their common sense solutions.....
Throwing our economy over the cliff is a common sense solution?
"Throwing our economy over a cliff" is an inaccurate and emotional statement. Part of the problem is the parameters of the debate. The point of this thread is that using name calling and terms such as this doesn't help anything. What the TP wants (as far as I can tell, again there is no "one" Tea Party) is reduced or a stop to Federal borrowing and a no growth or reduction in Federal spending. I don't see where calling for continued $1.5 Trillion dollar deficits is any saner than calling for no further Federal debt. Both actions will result in the dreaded reduction in our nation's credit rating, but at least stopping the borrowing will not increase the debt payments into bankruptcy levels. I am not an economist, but I know that a Federal debt above 100% of GDP is bad for our country. I know that we must get our house in order. While the TP is against tax increases, they also appear to be in favor of tax reform. If the old guard of Washington DC can be forced off of their established tit, then we can reform our national tax system into a more logical form that produces increases revenue, something that every sane person seems to agree on. And who would argue that DC wastes billions of dollars? Is it really impossible to police this spending?
While we conservatives and liberals disagree on the size and role of the Federal government, we should be able to agree on how to manage what we currently have.
So yes, I side with "common sense".
The emotional reactionism is touching. You can love or hate the tea party, and it doesn't really bother me either way.
Irrational arguments are a bit more disconcerting. The stock market is reacting to a much larger problem than the charade of a debt ceiling "crisis" we just witnessed.
Lack of employment
High public and private debt levels
Lowering (seemingly perpetual) consumer demand
And.... Eroded trust of the financial system at large. A FUNDAMENTAL erosion of trust.
Do any of you think a routine debt ceiling raise would have had a more positive effect on the markets? A few days, perhaps? Months?
Was raising taxes on the "rich" going to quell market fears?
What about a wealth tax? Raising capital gains tax rates?
The problems are fundamental. Tarp and Stimulus cash is piling up in banks, and doing nothing.
The more I learn about the banking industry of recent years, the more afraid I become.
I would suggest that we leave the "hobbits" alone. Perhaps these members of congress lack your great insights into economic matters... or maybe they are the Koch brother's dupes. I'm thinking these few congresspersons are much more irrelevant to the problem than so many claim. (from both sides)
Tea Party is to blame = smoke screen
What the Teabaggers need is their Hitler.
If they ever find him they won't even need Phil Gramm, Rush or even the Koch brothers.
They should create a contest like American idol to find him.
Koch brothers could put up the prize money.