San Marco Boulevard: Before & After
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/1321373259_wvZwW4B-L.jpg)
With the first section of San Marco Boulevard's makeover virtually complete, Metro Jacksonville shares before and after photographs of this urban core, pedestrian-friendly commercial district.
Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2011-jun-san-marco-boulevard-before-after
Nice article, shows the inconvenience of the construction will be worthwhile when all is done. And extending up to Friendship Fountain is a great idea.
I wish that Jax would use something besides Palms for street trees. How about something that will provide some SHADE for the pedestrians, and won't look like a telephone pole when it's first planted.
Quote from: vicupstate on June 14, 2011, 07:42:50 AM
I wish that Jax would use something besides Palms for street trees. How about something that will provide some SHADE for the pedestrians, and won't look like a telephone pole when it's first planted.
+1
The project looks great and I think the palms are a great idea. Their root structure will not destroy the sidewalks, irrigation or wiring for lights. I also noticed they added the illuminated street signs on the mast arm poles, nice touch.
Quote from: vicupstate on June 14, 2011, 07:42:50 AM
I wish that Jax would use something besides Palms for street trees. How about something that will provide some SHADE for the pedestrians, and won't look like a telephone pole when it's first planted.
They want to make sure that visitors know this is 'Where Florida Begins' and not 'Where Georgia Ends'
No seriously I love it. Great idea about extending to FF. It seems like common sense all along. A should/ must be done.
they could dub the area DUFWBO, down under fuller warren bridge overpass
This looks great! Can't wait to have a bike ride around there.
Great article, and great photos. The payoff from all this construction is going to be marvelous.
Quote from: jcjohnpaint on June 14, 2011, 08:49:19 AM
Quote from: vicupstate on June 14, 2011, 07:42:50 AM
I wish that Jax would use something besides Palms for street trees. How about something that will provide some SHADE for the pedestrians, and won't look like a telephone pole when it's first planted.
They want to make sure that visitors know this is 'Where Florida Begins' and not 'Where Georgia Ends'
If certain archane legends, recorded in obscure grimoires and coastal biology textbooks, are to be believed, there are palm trees in Georgia too. But maybe they just stole them from Florida. Or at least from midwestern retiree's mental images of Florida. ;)
Quote from: fsujax on June 14, 2011, 07:55:48 AM
The project looks great and I think the palms are a great idea. Their root structure will not destroy the sidewalks, irrigation or wiring for lights.
I would have to agree with several other posts that palms are pretty useless and we seem obsessed with them around here. They provide no shade and if not maintained well, provide perfect habitat for vermin.
There are many types of trees that could be planted that wouldn't destroy sidewalks with their roots. I think a nice native tree that would actually provide shade, doesn't get huge, has a nice form and interesting bark is the river birch. We also used to plant gingko trees as well. Even if its not native, it is a very hardy urban tree and generally doesn't get too big as to cause problems with infrastructure.
I actually have not problem with the palms trees. But its not just the palms that need the pop sickles sticks when you first them though. I remember when they first planted those tress between Univeristy and Emerson along 95 and they required the same thing.
It looks awesome. You're right DD .. the "popsicle" sticks are unsightly ,but necessary for the time being.. They will eventually take root and the lumber removed.
Looks pretty nice to me. Palms are clean and basically maintenance free. I'd rather see a Palm than a Crape Myrtle another tree that gets planted alot, but no one complains about.
If a narrow sidewalk was a bad thing. The truth is the tree well restricts the usable sidewalk. Although more attractive it might be it is still a narrow walk way.
Nothing against palms, I just don't think they needed so many of them. And looking at the shots along the sidewalks, they take up way too much walking space & sorta jet right out into people's paths.
Its all nice looking, but not as functional as it could have been.
Does anyone know the total cost of this project?
I think around $12.8MM.
In this case, I'm fine with the palms adjacent to where buildings front the sidewalks, given the limited ROW. However, building owners should be encouraged to install awnings on their storefronts. Luckily, several already have them, which is different from most of our walkable commercial districts.
Palm trees say "Florida" - I'm good with that.
Ever dress up in a suit and walk five blocks in the sun and humidity on a Jacksonville street lined with palm trees and no shade? If so, did you enjoy the environment? Did you want to spend additional time walking around or did you hop in the car and cut on the A/C as quick as possible?
I'm cool with palms in the right environment, but the type of tree you install in a pedestrian friendly area should have more to do with making the users of that space more comfortable. The main purpose of a tree on a sidewalk in Florida should be to provide shade and comfort to the pedestrian, not for scenery as we drive 45 mph down the street. This is one of the essential elements of context sensitive street design that we tend to completely overlook locally.
Quote from: thelakelander on June 15, 2011, 09:47:03 AM
Ever dress up in a suit and walk five blocks in the sun and humidity on a Jacksonville street lined with palm trees and no shade? If so, did you enjoy the environment? Did you want to spend additional time walking around or did you hop in the car and cut on the A/C as quick as possible?
I'm cool with palms in the right environment, but the type of tree you install in a pedestrian friendly area should have more to do with making the users of that space more comfortable. The main purpose of a tree on a sidewalk in Florida should be to provide shade and comfort to the pedestrian, not for scenery as we drive 45 mph down the street. This is one of the essential elements of context sensitive street design that we tend to completely overlook locally.
+ 1000
Palms are fine for a highway interchange, but are not appropriate, at least not as the dominant planting, when pedestrians are added to the mix.
Quote from: thelakelander on June 15, 2011, 09:09:51 AM
In this case, I'm fine with the palms adjacent to where buildings front the sidewalks, given the limited ROW. However, building owners should be encouraged to install awnings on their storefronts. Luckily, several already have them, which is different from most of our walkable commercial districts.
Lake, do you know the City's guidelines for awnings regarding protrusion over the sidewalk?
And I completely agree with you about the palms - we need more shade!
^Not off hand, but I know a number of businesses along San Marco Boulevard have them.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/1321373321_vR8BhCv-M.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/1321373517_348NvrZ-M.jpg)
It's all about the urban tree canopy. Miami and LA been at this for awhile now.
+1
Palms will survive major storms better. They will shed palm frons rather than fall over.
At the end of the day, who are we designing the greenscape for with an urban streetscape project? That's the most important consideration that should go into tree selection in a pedestrian oriented environment, imo.
One of the silliest things we do (this has nothing to do with palms, btw), that I noticed is that we heavily landscape the medians of arterial highways, but fail to put any type of trees along the sidewalks.
Even though there are problems with the existing trees in Hemming Park, the place looks a lot better than when it was full of palms.
Palms just don't make sense in an urban environment. Stick them out at the beach.
I cannot believe how long this project has taken . . . and it's still not done. The impact on the surrounding businesses has been brutal. I'm sort'a excited about the end product, but just having driven through there yesterday, I still don't "feel" a great new streetscape.
Quote from: grimss on June 15, 2011, 10:00:08 PM
I cannot believe how long this project has taken . . . and it's still not done. The impact on the surrounding businesses has been brutal. I'm sort'a excited about the end product, but just having driven through there yesterday, I still don't "feel" a great new streetscape.
I agree. I'm not really seeing the new look.
Wow if you not seeing the new look your are definitely not looking at the photos.
Thats what I was thinking.
If you drive through the area, you'll realize that the Palm "Allee" is located in what's really the non-pedestrian part of this strip (off-ramp from the bridge and JOI's building). The trees certainly provide a nice entrance to the commercial area, but the commercial area itself still feels kind of barren. There are some expanded sidewalk areas outside of the restaurants, and that's very cool, but otherwise my impression was, "All this delay (AND redirecting of traffic, such a pain) for what?" I hope time will prove me wrong--the merchants certainly deserve the best the city can offer.
http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2011-06-16/story/san-marco-boulevard-businesses-struggle-amid-road-construction
Quote from: thelakelander on June 16, 2011, 06:39:45 AM
http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2011-06-16/story/san-marco-boulevard-businesses-struggle-amid-road-construction
I saw that. Hopefully once its complete the businesses the sidewalk improvements will result in more foot traffic past these businesses. It's good to see that at lease some of the landlords understand the situation and are cutting businesses breaks on rent.
Quote from: grimss on June 15, 2011, 10:14:28 PM
If you drive through the area, you'll realize that the Palm "Allee" is located in what's really the non-pedestrian part of this strip (off-ramp from the bridge and JOI's building). The trees certainly provide a nice entrance to the commercial area, but the commercial area itself still feels kind of barren. There are some expanded sidewalk areas outside of the restaurants, and that's very cool, but otherwise my impression was, "All this delay (AND redirecting of traffic, such a pain) for what?" I hope time will prove me wrong--the merchants certainly deserve the best the city can offer.
Throughout a good bit of the construction I was riding the Bus. (thank God thats over LOL) And trust me, they worked worked day in and day out. I think it was more than just a streetscape because they were doing ALOT of digging. As citizens we are quick to judge from the outside looking in. Let me pose this question. What should have we done differently in regard to this project? Living in Jacksonville my whole life, 95% of time we are going to find SOMETHING wrong with EVERYTHING the city does. However, we never offer a better solution.
you are correct. this is more than just a simple streetscape project. If am not mistaken, I believe ther was a lot of utility work.
Yes, there is a ton of utility and infrastructure work going into this, and in some ways it's more pressing than the road improvement itself. They're adding totally new water and sewer lines, and burying the electric lines to prevent them from getting knocked out by storms. They're also installing new storm drains, which will help reduce the flooding that occurs in heavy rains.
http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2009-12-18/story/san_marco_merchants_brace_for_road_reconstruction
http://jacksonville.com/community/southside/2011-02-24/story/southside-sun-notebook-san-marco-streetscape-contract-awarded
It is good to see that they didn't put in those ridiculously large planters (the ones that obstruct the sidewalk) around the trees like they did in Avondale.
I prefer the Washington and Queen Palms over the Sable Palms.
I ended up trying Vino's yesterday evening. Both Vino's and Bistro Aix have added sidewalk seating. This stretch should have a real nice vibe when complete and additional restaurants and businesses take advantage of the wider sidewalks.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Neighborhoods/San-Marco-Boulevard-San-Marco/i-mLRPzbm/0/L/P1470290-L.jpg)
nice picture Lake, it looks great. San Marco will have two great corridors leading from the Southbank to the heart of the district.
It's looking good over there, but as someone alluded to earlier - are they fixing the flooding problems? The cosmetic stuff is great, but the flooding over there was terrible anytime there was a significant amount of rain. I know one business that closed due to water damage from flooding caused by rain water. Hopefully they spent money on that part of it along with everything else.
Quote from: Bativac on June 20, 2011, 10:09:41 AM
It's looking good over there, but as someone alluded to earlier - are they fixing the flooding problems? The cosmetic stuff is great, but the flooding over there was terrible anytime there was a significant amount of rain. I know one business that closed due to water damage from flooding caused by rain water. Hopefully they spent money on that part of it along with everything else.
It was also stated earlier that there was alot of infastructure done as well.
Quote from: Bativac on June 20, 2011, 10:09:41 AM
It's looking good over there, but as someone alluded to earlier - are they fixing the flooding problems? The cosmetic stuff is great, but the flooding over there was terrible anytime there was a significant amount of rain. I know one business that closed due to water damage from flooding caused by rain water. Hopefully they spent money on that part of it along with everything else.
They're adding new storm drains that should reduce, but not eliminate the flooding problem. There are plans to add a new pump station in the area (on LaSalle Street) that should take care of most of the rest of it. That's not part of this project though.
http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2009-12-18/story/san_marco_merchants_brace_for_road_reconstruction
Quote from: vicupstate on June 15, 2011, 09:57:44 AMPalms are fine for a highway interchange, but are not appropriate, at least not as the dominant planting, when pedestrians are added to the mix.
I disagree; they can be very much appropriate. Older urban cities where species of palm trees grow well go do a great job of having those trees dominate along their most urban and active streets. I understand the advantage of planting shade trees, but one advantage that palm trees confer in those older cities is that they don't block the architecture of the buildings--which is why most Northern cities don't plant shade trees along their urban streets.
New Orleans:
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/New-Orleans-April-2010/P1330468/832372907_pWxpn-M.jpg)
Charleston:
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Charleston-2009/DSC0061/609350993_qFyC6-M.jpg)
(photos by Metro Jacksonville)
Two things that stand out in the New Orleans and Charleston images are the presence of building awnings and density. Both help with protecting pedestrians from extreme conditions, so their palms serve more of visual than functional purpose within the streetscapes.
Btw, Hollywood, FL did a pretty good job of integrating palms, building awnings and outdoor seating into their urban streetscape:
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/1213594705_65B7K-M.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/1213595098_UEzwt-M.jpg)
Awnings are pretty standard on any urban street, even in Northern cities, and increased building density should be the goal for streets within any area targeted for urban revitalization. Those aren't special conditions that serve as substitutes for shade trees. Personally, I like it when coastal cities use palms along their urban thoroughfares, even predominantly; it contributes to a sense of place and is visually appealing. It seems to be more of a Sunbelt mentality to plant shade trees along urban streets which eventually come to obscure the architecture of the buildings, and I think a legitimate argument can be made that such architecture should be exposed; after all, isn't the point of architecture to admire and inspire? Pretty hard to do that when trees are in the way.
Don't palms attract rats and roaches?
They're special for Jax because the majority of our urban commercial districts no longer have them. We're literally in a situation where we have to teach our community the make up of good urban design all over again.
Nevertheless, the ultimate function of street trees is to provide shade and buffer for the pedestrian. You can accomplish that with shade trees or palms (depending on spacing and tree type) and still be able to admire architecture from your car (a much lower priority than providing a sound pedestrian environment, imo). Coral Gables is a great example of putting all of these elements together.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/1104776527_7FSMV-M.jpg)
You can still see the architecture in Coral Gables. The shade trees, palm trees and building awnings are designed to work together in providing the function of protecting the pedestrian. Also, if a community is going to go with palms, then space them close enough to provide shade for the pedestrian
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/1104777300_vuUi2-M.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/1104824425_Sw6AL-M.jpg)
Who said anything about admiring the architecture from your car? I mean from a pedestrian standpoint.
Understand, I'm not saying that I'm against shade trees per se, but I disagree with the sentiment that non-shade trees (like palms) are inappropriate for an urban street as the New Orleans and Charleston photos demonstrate.
From a pedestrian standpoint, neither has to cover up architecture. That's a function of proper design. Greenville's Main Street is a great example of this. Nevertheless, I understand where you're coming from, although I find walking down Charleston's King Street a little uncomfortable during the summer months. It could use some shade trees but given the width of the ROW, they may not be appropriate, so continuous awnings work better in that context. Anyway, if you want palms, you just need to make sure they are spaced properly to provide the core function of street trees within a pedestrian environment, which is to provide shade. I think at the core of this topic, the actual spacing of trees is something that is typically overlooked.
Not to mention roots. Many shade trees large enough to provide pedestrian shade have extensive root systems not appropriate for sidewalk settings.
One thing I noticed traveling this corridor compared to a similar one - Riverside Ave - is the road work itself. The transitions to/from the brick pavers on San Macro Blvd is not as clean/smooth. Also, the work around the "way too many" manholes is terrible too. Don't notice any of those issues on Riverside Ave.
Quote from: exnewsman on August 10, 2011, 11:48:59 AM
One thing I noticed traveling this corridor compared to a similar one - Riverside Ave - is the road work itself. The transitions to/from the brick pavers on San Macro Blvd is not as clean/smooth. Also, the work around the "way too many" manholes is terrible too. Don't notice any of those issues on Riverside Ave.
I think after they are done with the initial curbwork they will be coming back over the whole thing and laying down the last layer of asphalt.
Quote from: exnewsman on August 10, 2011, 11:48:59 AM
One thing I noticed traveling this corridor compared to a similar one - Riverside Ave - is the road work itself. The transitions to/from the brick pavers on San Macro Blvd is not as clean/smooth. Also, the work around the "way too many" manholes is terrible too. Don't notice any of those issues on Riverside Ave.
There's no way it can be any worse than the section of Riverside between Margaret and King Street. That section of road is abysmal and is an embarassment. Pot holes, man holes, patchwork of asphalt. It needs to be completely resurfaced.
Quote from: cline on August 10, 2011, 03:00:54 PM
Quote from: exnewsman on August 10, 2011, 11:48:59 AM
One thing I noticed traveling this corridor compared to a similar one - Riverside Ave - is the road work itself. The transitions to/from the brick pavers on San Macro Blvd is not as clean/smooth. Also, the work around the "way too many" manholes is terrible too. Don't notice any of those issues on Riverside Ave.
True enough. That area is indeed horrible. I was referring more to Riverside Ave as you enter Brooklyn - up to Forrest St.
There's no way it can be any worse than the section of Riverside between Margaret and King Street. That section of road is abysmal and is an embarassment. Pot holes, man holes, patchwork of asphalt. It needs to be completely resurfaced.
Quote from: acme54321 on August 10, 2011, 01:32:00 PM
Quote from: exnewsman on August 10, 2011, 11:48:59 AM
One thing I noticed traveling this corridor compared to a similar one - Riverside Ave - is the road work itself. The transitions to/from the brick pavers on San Macro Blvd is not as clean/smooth. Also, the work around the "way too many" manholes is terrible too. Don't notice any of those issues on Riverside Ave.
I think after they are done with the initial curbwork they will be coming back over the whole thing and laying down the last layer of asphalt.
I hope you are right. It certainly needs it.