Metro Jacksonville

Okay, here is the "OFFICIAL SKYWAY EXPANSION THREAD" It's here for you to vote and comment on, and I've set it up for Skyway supporters only.


This is not to say we can't have a healthy give and take on the positive aspects of this thread, IE:  "I like this idea more because..." or "I completely disagree with that plan or concept because..."

I'm also going to bend a bit and allow reposting of pertinent posts from the past, if you think you've got a post or drawing/map/or diagram that qualifies lets dig it our and try it on our fresh audience.

Have fun and let's do the work for them! And remember Uncle Ock is watching, so don't try and spoil the party.


OCKLAWAHA

If it ran to the stadium it could make parking for games so much cheaper and eliminate some congestion getting out of big events.  Lets hope they do something, anything, with it!

If option1 is done well, it could generate serious revenue.  I think ground floor retail (sandwich shops, coffee shops, small convenience type stores) is absolutely necessary to take the Skyway to the next level.  
For some reason, Jax is so averse to pocket retail spaces downtown.  You could put 3 on the courthouse plaza, one in Hemming, one in the main street homeless restroom, multiple on the river walk, and dozens all around the skyway stations.  Little 600 foot or less food stands, coffee stands, or news stands.  They get people out on the streets, they meet a need, and they generate revenue for the city with existing infrastructure.

Anyway, reinvest the revenue from step 1 to help fund a line to San Marco and then later to the stadium.  I'd like to see the skyway run down Bay to the sports complex.  The street car can use Monroe to reach the complex to the North.

I'm for a combo of the following:
1. Expansion to Riverside and Sports Complex. Consider other expansions as these two routes prove successful.
2. Advertising would be great (wraps, framed posters/signage a la metros and subways).
3. Retail concessions in stations.
4. I could also possibly be sold on an expansion northwards to Shands.

Not totally sold on the following:
1. San Marco/FEC expansion. At least not for a while - as long as that huge garage on King sits empty.
2. Longer trains. When the success of the expanded Skyway shows a need, sure. Immediately? No.

I choose option 1 and 3 because that brings in more revenue and the skyway should go to the stadium.

I'd rather spend about $25 million on expanding the skyway and use the remaining $75 million to build streetcar.

Alternatively, spend the money retrofitting the skyway system to allow streetcars to use it.

Quote from: tufsu1 on May 26, 2011, 06:46:01 PM
I'd rather spend about $25 million on expanding the skyway and use the remaining $75 million to build streetcar.

Alternatively, spend the money retrofitting the skyway system to allow streetcars to use it.

I really think we should finish the skyway before we invest in anything else. It really won't help to build a streetcar to go all the places the skyway should go(ex. Five Points, Shands). That will KILL the little ridership that the skyway has.

Skyway needs to extend to the stadium, into San Marco (maybe to Kings/Atlantic?) and into Riverside (Five Points station???).

That will interconnect the core better than streetcars and buses.

I'm with the majority here.  Expand to the stadium with stops along the way (including a terminus loop encircling the stadium for rapid service of football fans, perhaps a mini station at each gate built right into the stadium).  This would allow a secondary stop at the ballpark/arena to act as the terminus serving the sports complex when there are no activities at the stadium.

IMO, linking the sports district (in addition to implementing option 1) would really work wonders with reviving the system's appeal to the average suburbanite therefore increasing the support for expansions into San Marco and Brooklyn.

Personally I feel the the most expensive portions are existing.  Expand the skyway to Riverside, San Marco, Stadium, and Springfield and see how much things will improve.  I agree that the streetcar does not seem like a fix and the skyway must be completed. 

I said the Stadium hoping that would get San Marco and Riverside to demand they be connected.

For the record Streetcar before skyway expansion.

Quote from: JeffreyS on May 26, 2011, 08:11:04 PM
For the record Streetcar before skyway expansion.

If there is a streetcar built before the skyway gets built out, the chances of it ever being expanded will be VERY little. A streetcar would be nice, but we should finish what we started first.

All the modes should complement the other.  So adding streetcar makes the skyway more useful and makes the expansion more useful and therefor more doable. The Mobility plan already has streetcar approved for St. Vincents to Shands via the Landing and Sports complex. Lets go with the Bird in the hand.  I also feel once any other neighborhood gets fixed rail transit San Marco will demand they get theirs and have the clout to get it.

First of all, there is no way we need to spend $100 million.

We should be able to sell sponsorship rights for the stations and wraps on the trains to cover the cost of those improvements - or at least a big chunk of it.

Converting the stations into retail space would be paid for by the developer.  A long term lease is all we need to entice developers to make the improvements and then sublet the space to retailers.  JTA's return would be increaesed ridership.  This was the basic premise for the hotel at Kings Avenue, and it appears to be working.

As we discussed before, new TOD's along the way pay for portions of the expansion into San Marco, probably through Tax Increment Financing (TIF).

All of these fall into our new mayor's plan of Public Private Partnerships.

I say expand the skyway across to the stadium...and maybe to riverside, put the streetcar everywhere else that the skyway will never reach.

Frankly I think a streetcar should exist (basically) where that trolley bus runs now. Riverside seems like a neighborhood that a streetcar fits into. Same with the beaches. Maybe Riverside needs a north/south and the skyway can take east/west to downtown.

I'm planning to actually ride the Skyway for the first time tomorrow, I hope to add more once I'm more first-hand informed.  ;D

Look, there is no point expanding the Skyway anywhere else downtown, until it is first expanded to somewhere people actually live! E.g., Riverside, San Marco, Springfield, etc. The thing already goes to within just a short walk of most places downtown, continuing to add new stops in that area is a waste, and will NOT do anything to increase ridership. To increase ridership, and make the system self-sustaining, you need to connect places people need to go to and from, e.g. business with residential. Otherwise, nobody rides. You can't tell me a new $10mm station at the BOA tower is going to increase ridership, when the existing station in Hemming Plaza is literally two blocks away. The reason it's a failure is that it doesn't connect things that need connecting, e.g. business areas with residential areas with shopping areas. That's the basic formula for intra-city passenger transport folks. We need to do that, first.

Completely agree with you, Chris.  People say that the skyway doesn't go anywhere.  It does go somewhere - downtown.  It doesn't START anywhere.  Get it into the neighborhoods!

Expand it to San Marco and the Stadium

RAP is not going to let a modern looking skyway extend into Riverside.  Streetcar Riverside, sports complex and Springfield, Skyway San Marco and Sports Sports Complex.

I would love to see the skyway go to Durkeeville.

The stadium expansion would certainly increae the ridership substantially (and a ridership boost will boost peoples' confidence in the Skyway). Unless I'm mistaken, though, aren't there other reasons for not wanting to expand the skyway to the stadium?

For one, a station would never be built at the BofA tower. It's too close to central. Anyways, I agree that the skyway should be extended into Riverside, San Marco, and Springfield, but the stadium would the easiest to build because it's just right down the street. A streetcar should go down Park St or San Marco. But we shouldn't put a streetcar in a place where the skyway can only go like Riverside Ave. And like I said before, if a streetcar is built, you can forget about the skyway ever being extened again. Streetcars make sense, but we need to finish the skyway first.

Quote from: JeffreyS on May 26, 2011, 08:58:13 PM
RAP is not going to let a modern looking skyway extend into Riverside.  Streetcar Riverside, sports complex and Springfield, Skyway San Marco and Sports Sports Complex.

I would love to see the skyway go to Durkeeville.

I dunno. Maybe we should ask them? If the route were sensible, I doubt they'd mind. The way to handle a historic district is easy, you just run the skyway route down Riverside Ave. and then under 95 to a station in 5 points in the park. Then you don't have to demolish a single thing. To get to other areas, the route could just track down US 17 and then cut south directly to a small station in Avondale, so you'd only have one smallish section of track that could be placed down the center of a wide street (there are several possibilities) without having to demolish any property. I highly doubt RAP would have any problem with that. What RAP has a problem with is COJ's usual method of doing things, which is to level entire neighborhoods for hare-brained schemes that never get off the ground, a' la Brooklyn, LaVilla, etc. That would be a no-go, but as long as the route is sensibly planned and doesn't call for leveling a pile of historic structures, I bet RAP would throw open arms around it. Remember, the stations can be very small because in an already-urban area like this, almost all of the users will be walking to the station, not driving. So you don't need parking like at the "Park & Ride" style stations they've been building for it in other places.

Quote from: Tacachale on May 26, 2011, 09:00:09 PM
The stadium expansion would certainly increae the ridership substantially (and a ridership boost will boost peoples' confidence in the Skyway). Unless I'm mistaken, though, aren't there other reasons for not wanting to expand the skyway to the stadium?

I think you hit on the edge of a ridership avalanche. Just a couple of blocks from the stadium is A.P.Randolph, Fairfield and the Eastside neighborhoods, in fact Randolph was built as a trolley suburb. A Multimodal station something like the Kings Avenue Garage with a built-in bus, streetcar, Skyway station would blow the socks off the non game day Skyway ridership, AND people could still ride it to games.

We actually have computer models of that station, I'll see if I can dig them out.

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: Ocklawaha on May 26, 2011, 09:18:12 PM

Quote from: Tacachale on May 26, 2011, 09:00:09 PM
The stadium expansion would certainly increae the ridership substantially (and a ridership boost will boost peoples' confidence in the Skyway). Unless I'm mistaken, though, aren't there other reasons for not wanting to expand the skyway to the stadium?

I think you hit on the edge of a ridership avalanche. Just a couple of blocks from the stadium is A.P.Randolph, Fairfield and the Eastside neighborhoods, in fact Randolph was built as a trolley suburb. A Multimodal station something like the Kings Avenue Garage with a built-in bus, streetcar, Skyway station would blow the socks off the non game day Skyway ridership, AND people could still ride it to games.

We actually have computer models of that station, I'll see if I can dig them out.

OCKLAWAHA

Thanks, Ocklawaha, that would be interesting to see.

Also, are there any estimates for how much the different expansion plans might increase ridership? (I apologize for any repetition; i'm new here. :) )

(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/CRITICAL%20Maps/StadiumSkyway-Bus-StreetcarStati-1.jpg)

This is my original sketch upon which the models were created.

OCKLAWAHA

The football stadium is not best bang-for-buck. The events there are spaced widely apart, so while you'll have great ridership, at least for one day, the other 99% of the time it will be a ghost town train. The way to truly increase ridership is to expand into residential areas, that will bring riders day after day, after day, after day, this month, next month, next year, etc. The impact is enormous compared to a huge spike in ridership that only lasts for a day, and just parts of a day at that, before dropping off again. You want steady ridership.

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on May 26, 2011, 08:45:23 PM
Look, there is no point expanding the Skyway anywhere else downtown, until it is first expanded to somewhere people actually live! E.g., Riverside, San Marco, Springfield, etc. The thing already goes to within just a short walk of most places downtown, continuing to add new stops in that area is a waste, and will NOT do anything to increase ridership. To increase ridership, and make the system self-sustaining, you need to connect places people need to go to and from, e.g. business with residential. Otherwise, nobody rides. You can't tell me a new $10mm station at the BOA tower is going to increase ridership, when the existing station in Hemming Plaza is literally two blocks away. The reason it's a failure is that it doesn't connect things that need connecting, e.g. business areas with residential areas with shopping areas. That's the basic formula for intra-city passenger transport folks. We need to do that, first.

This makes sense.  Extend it to where people/vibrancy exists.  Everyone knows I am an Annie Lytle hugger, so for more reasons than  I can count, I would like to see it extend to Annie Lytle FIRST, San Marco second, the Stadium/MetroPark/other points in the area.

Annie Lytle NEEDS this to happen.. Frankly , Ock's idea for this building as a station/mixed use facility seems  1) the most likely way to get funding to not only accomplish doing it, but funding to overhaul the building and bring it back to life; it has sat vacant much longer than it was in use as a School.  2) a practical and feasible use for the building , given its context 3) the most likely idea to reconnect the building AND the Skyway and various other methods of transportation directly into the 5 points/ Riverside area, and finally,4) a leg in which , IMO ridership would increase, taking people into Downtown.

 Frankly , given its over 30 year track record of proposals that for one reason or another , never came to pass, I think at this juncture , it is THE ONLY chance the School has, for being spared.

Cross the FECRR to San Marco, and down Riverside to BCBS/RAM, retail in the stations.  Like others* have said, I think the Sports Complex line would be overcrowded a dozen times a year, and empty most of the rest of the time.  However ... if some TOD deals could be worked for the Shipyards, and as thelakelander has suggested, the Sports Complex parking lots, that line could make sense.  


* OMG I agree with Chris!

I fully agree with you Chris, but what I think EVERYONE overlooks is the 'purification purge' that eliminated FLORIDA AVENUE, it's huge circular park (under 2nd base) with a lake, it's vibrant business district, and the oldest group of surviving early Jacksonville homes that managed to survived the fire. The Arlington Expressway and the MLK - Hart Ramps have neatly created a very vanilla playground on the bones of a rich and sweet chocolate history. Right over that road is a freaking huge community of homes and apartments, as well as the remaining businesses along A.P.Randolph. It was really white of the city to install a marker to the homes and businesses they ripped down so we can ride a Ferris wheel.

It is this neighborhood that I think would double the Skyway Ridership overnight, my multimodal station could be built on either side of the expressway, or on BOTH SIDES. Eastside/FAIRFIELD would keep the turnstiles humming all week long, and a single game such as the Sun's recent contest with Birmingham packed in 15,000 people. If just 20% of those frustrated riders jumped on the Skyway, you've doubled the weekly ridership. The Jaguars would blow it off the scale. Add to this San Marco and possibly Shand's via Public Health and the VA Clinic. You want crowded trains? Let's go get them.

Also check your PM's for a message

OCKLAWAHA

OCKLAWAHA

FWIW, more goes on at the sports complex than just football games. On top of the vast amount of riders the football games would attract, the Suns play something like 70 home games a year, and draw around 5000 people a night. The arena football team plays at least 8 home games, and draws over 8000 people a night. There are also the various other events at the arena, many of which also draw thousands of people. If - god willing - we can get hockey back in there, there would be even more than that.

There are plenty of people heading down to the sports complex through the year. Whether enough of them would take the skyway if it didn't hit up their neighborhood is a different question.

Quote from: Tacachale on May 26, 2011, 10:20:28 PM
FWIW, more goes on at the sports complex than just football games. On top of the vast amount of riders the football games would attract, the Suns play something like 70 home games a year, and draw around 5000 people a night. The arena football team plays at least 8 home games, and draws over 8000 people a night. There are also the various other events at the arena, many of which also draw thousands of people. If - god willing - we can get hockey back in there, there would be even more than that.

There are plenty of people heading down to the sports complex through the year. Whether enough of them would take the skyway if it didn't hit up their neighborhood is a different question.

It doesn't really matter, the system can serve every non-residential destination from here to China and that still won't do much for ridership. It's like a hallway with 100 exits and no entrance, it still won't have any people in it. You need to connect residential centers with the destination. If I have to drive just to ride a train a short distance, then who isn't just going to drive to the destination and be done with it? If I can walk a couple blocks to the station and then take the train to the destination, then that's another story.

That's what's always missing from these boondoggles when it comes to rail transport in this state, we need to quit designing these short-haul systems that require a car to get to the stations. That's asinine and defeats the whole damn point. Then they can't figure out why nobody rides it.

ONE TIME...

That's all the convincing anyone needs that has parked around the stadium/arena/ball fields during an event then joined with 10,000-90,000 people trying to leave all at once. They'll be remote parking-Skyway customers, or streetcar (the stadium loop) customers for life.

Add those folks to the EASTSIDE NEIGHBORHOODS that would be directly connected via Skyway to Downtown.

OCKLAWAHA

that makes sense :)

If the station could be located in such a way, or else have another station at the end of a spur, that could serve the east side then yeah, that would be great. I agree the park & ride for games would bring a lot of riders, just not the day-in-day-out kind of riders that connecting up residential would bring. It would be busy a day or two a month and then drop off the rest of the time. Maybe make a station at the sports complex, and then continue on across the MLK to serve those residential and industrial neighborhoods too? The solution is clearly an expansion, and I agree with you 100% the stadium should be connected. I just look at the system and from what I can tell its main problem is it connected a bunch of destinations to each other and never connected the people to the destinations. So I look at it and think the very first thing we should do is start connecting dense residential areas. If we had enough money, by all means, connect everything you can, especially a major destination like the stadium. I just think that to get it working on a daily vs. a special event basis, you have to connect up to the residential areas.

Quote from: Ocklawaha on May 26, 2011, 10:41:26 PM

(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/TRANSIT%20monorail%20and%20Skyway/AnnieLyttle-2.jpg)
ANNIE TRANSIT CENTER, This would be connected to 5-Points via 'a grand paseo', plus bus
in addition to two floors of shopping and a theater. The original plan called for the Skyway to cross the Freeway at this point on Roselle St. - Even with the Annie Center there is no reason why a pedestrian bridge or underpass couldn't be fit in from Annie west.

(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/TRANSIT%20monorail%20and%20Skyway/AnnieLyttleSkywayTerminal-2.jpg)

(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/TRANSIT%20monorail%20and%20Skyway/AnnieLyttleSkywayTerminal-3.jpg)

(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/TRANSIT%20monorail%20and%20Skyway/AnnieLyttleSkywayTerminal-4.jpg)

concept design by R.W. Mann, Models by Jason

(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/TRANSIT%20monorail%20and%20Skyway/SKYWAYUMIIITrainBombardier.jpg)

OCKLAWAHA

+1,000,000,000

Beautiful!

I hear you and not a bad suggestion I still  think I come down on the streetcar line from Riverside to the Landing, sports district and Springfield first.  Added benefit it is already in the approved mobility plan. 

I am going bck to DC in July and when I get off the plan and take the Train to Gaithersburg I may come around to your line of thinking.

We just elected a Mayor with a pro investing in Downtown stance.  I agree that the image problem you describe exists just may not be as pervasive as you believe.

As soon as Jacksonville was awarded an NFL franchise construction to the stadium should have started the next day. :) With a new arena hosting many events and hopefully metropark and shipyard improvements in the future serious thought in this needs to take place. Streetcar in Riverside probably wont happen.

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on May 26, 2011, 10:29:22 PM

Quote from: Tacachale on May 26, 2011, 10:20:28 PM
FWIW, more goes on at the sports complex than just football games. On top of the vast amount of riders the football games would attract, the Suns play something like 70 home games a year, and draw around 5000 people a night. The arena football team plays at least 8 home games, and draws over 8000 people a night. There are also the various other events at the arena, many of which also draw thousands of people. If - god willing - we can get hockey back in there, there would be even more than that.

There are plenty of people heading down to the sports complex through the year. Whether enough of them would take the skyway if it didn't hit up their neighborhood is a different question.

It doesn't really matter, the system can serve every non-residential destination from here to China and that still won't do much for ridership. It's like a hallway with 100 exits and no entrance, it still won't have any people in it. You need to connect residential centers with the destination. If I have to drive just to ride a train a short distance, then who isn't just going to drive to the destination and be done with it? If I can walk a couple blocks to the station and then take the train to the destination, then that's another story.

That's what's always missing from these boondoggles when it comes to rail transport in this state, we need to quit designing these short-haul systems that require a car to get to the stations. That's asinine and defeats the whole damn point. Then they can't figure out why nobody rides it.

I totally agree with that last point.

Extend to the Airport: All visitors to downtown from Airport would use it: 7 days a week and would be good for downtown and downtown hotels.

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on May 26, 2011, 10:45:21 PM
I agree the park & ride for games would bring a lot of riders

here's the thing...lots of people already use the park & ride lots at the Prime Osborn for games....JTA runs a shuttle bus abouit every 5-10 minutes starting 5 hours before the game...so a Skyway extension to the satdium would just duplicate that service.

And then there's the crush after the game...if anyone has ever ridden public transit after a game in a big city, you know there is a need for extra vehicles waiting....I'm talking about even in full-on subway systems like DC, PHL, and ATL....now imagine how that would work (or not) with the little skyway vehicles.

Quote from: tufsu1 on May 27, 2011, 08:10:30 AM

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on May 26, 2011, 10:45:21 PM
I agree the park & ride for games would bring a lot of riders

here's the thing...lots of people already use the park & ride lots at the Prime Osborn for games....JTA runs a shuttle bus abouit every 5-10 minutes starting 5 hours before the game...so a Skyway extension to the satdium would just duplicate that service.

And then there's the crush after the game...if anyone has ever ridden public transit after a game in a big city, you know there is a need for extra vehicles waiting....I'm talking about even in full-on subway systems like DC, PHL, and ATL....now imagine how that would work (or not) with the little skyway vehicles.

You could add more cars.

But you and I agree, I was the one saying to forget about the stadium until the skyway first connects to residential areas. It connects a bunch of destinations currently, but no people. Like a hallway with a bunch of rooms off it and no entrances. People come from where people are, the basic issue here is you have to connect residential with business with retail, that's the basic formula. Skyway's problem is it connects to no residential.

agreed Chris...fact is you could add more cars, but the station platforms are only so long...and you still need to keep a distance between trains...basically you reach max. capacity pretty quick, which is the problem DC metro now has in their downtown tunnel.

I see where there will be benefits of connecting the neighborhoods first, however, my reasoning behind wanting to connect the stadium first is to garner the support of the rest of the Duval population living out in the burbs that will benefit during sporting events.  They will finally see the system as beneficial and start to realize its potential.  With a one way loop around the stadium we could almost run a steady line of max length trains with alternating express routes to the terminus' at the Prime and King's Ave Garage thereby eliminating the need for the busses.  This could also open up some of the stadium's parking lots for development, further enhancing the areas atmosphere.

IMO, once we gain the support of the suburbanites the opportunities will be endless.  

Phase 1B would be to build the consolodated transit center as discussed here that would combine all of our current modes under one roof (Amtrak, Greyhound, Skyway, JTA).  This should probably come before any other system expansions or at least at the same time.

Phase 2 for me would be to connect St. Vincent's to Shands with a streetcar line intersecting the skyway at strategic points.

Phase 3 would be to implement a commuter rail line extending north to connect with the airport's planned transit line at/near RCMP.  That would allow travellers/tourists a true carless experience when visiting downtown Jax or for thos living along the lines that are up and running.

Phase 4A would be a short skyway extension into Brooklyn with a terminus at the Anni Lyttle school.

Phase 4B would be to create a one way San Marco loop that continues the line down under I95 to Nira and around to Baptist/Nemours/Wolfson's and reconnect at Prudential Station.

Phase 5 would be to create a two-way streetcar route up and down the Beaches connecting the north beaches to PVB.

Phase 6 would be to connect the southside of jax and perhaps St. Augustine to the system via commuter rail along the FEC and US1.  This may also be accomplished sooner if a deal with Amtrak can be worked out on the FEC with additional stops.

Phase 7 would be to connect Orange Park via the CSX line.

Phase 8 would be to connect the new beaches line to the system via beach blvd. using a 2 way LRT system.

Phases 9 on would be to continue expansion of the system into the urban core neighborhoods via streetcar.

I don't see why so many people want a streetcar here so bad. The skyway NEEDS to be finished before we introduce any new type of rail transit(except for commuter rail). If streetcars are built, the skyway will be DONE. Look at the streetcar map on JTA's website. It's gonna do the job that the skyway should be doing. I understand connecting at logical points and all, but if streetcars are going to the stadium on BAY STREET, or going down RIVERSIDE AVENUE, no one will ride the skyway.

Quote from: JeffreyS on May 27, 2011, 09:36:14 AM
Phase 1 Riverside starter line the council approved it.  Now lets show them some support for this bold( In Jacksonville) action.  We need to rally support not pick this apart with how they could have done it differently. 

Do you know where will it go? What streets it will take?

Quote from: iMarvin on May 27, 2011, 09:42:44 AM

Quote from: JeffreyS on May 27, 2011, 09:36:14 AM
Phase 1 Riverside starter line the council approved it.  Now lets show them some support for this bold( In Jacksonville) action.  We need to rally support not pick this apart with how they could have done it differently.  

Do you know where will it go? What streets it will take?

Phase 1: Kings at St. Vincents taking Riverside Ave maybe oak to Five points.

Residents and destination points along the whole route. Makes 1600 Riverside, Episcopal retirement home and a other apartments into TODs.  It is an Awesome way to prime the pump for transit. Hospital, Publix, homes, Apartments, too many restaurants and night spots to name in our most urban walkable are of town.

Just don't make the Skyway do this...

(http://images.cheezburger.com/completestore/2009/7/1/128909418726343239.jpg)

I think Skyway's current stations need to improve their design, layout flow, create an ecosystem of public/private partnerships, while the Skyway expands into hot active residential areas allow people to actually use itto get to work and back home. In addition, the Skyway should connect directly to the Sport / Entertainment Complex area to its network.

Moooooooo!

-Josh

Quote from: JeffreyS on May 27, 2011, 10:15:10 AM

Quote from: iMarvin on May 27, 2011, 09:42:44 AM

Quote from: JeffreyS on May 27, 2011, 09:36:14 AM
Phase 1 Riverside starter line the council approved it.  Now lets show them some support for this bold( In Jacksonville) action.  We need to rally support not pick this apart with how they could have done it differently.  

Do you know where will it go? What streets it will take?

Phase 1: Kings at St. Vincents taking Riverside Ave maybe oak to Five points.

Residents and destination points along the whole route. Makes 1600 Riverside, Episcopal retirement home and a other apartments into TODs.  It is an Awesome way to prime the pump for transit. Hospital, Publix, homes, Apartments, too many restaurants and night spots to name in our most urban walkable are of town.

Is that set in stone? I think the streetcar should go from St. Vincents on King and the turn right on Park St.

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on May 26, 2011, 08:45:23 PM
Look, there is no point expanding the Skyway anywhere else downtown, until it is first expanded to somewhere people actually live! E.g., Riverside, San Marco, Springfield, etc. The thing already goes to within just a short walk of most places downtown, continuing to add new stops in that area is a waste, and will NOT do anything to increase ridership. To increase ridership, and make the system self-sustaining, you need to connect places people need to go to and from, e.g. business with residential. Otherwise, nobody rides. You can't tell me a new $10mm station at the BOA tower is going to increase ridership, when the existing station in Hemming Plaza is literally two blocks away. The reason it's a failure is that it doesn't connect things that need connecting, e.g. business areas with residential areas with shopping areas. That's the basic formula for intra-city passenger transport folks. We need to do that, first.

Central Station is only 1/2 block from the BOA tower.

Quote from: tufsu1 on May 27, 2011, 08:10:30 AM

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on May 26, 2011, 10:45:21 PM
I agree the park & ride for games would bring a lot of riders

here's the thing...lots of people already use the park & ride lots at the Prime Osborn for games....JTA runs a shuttle bus abouit every 5-10 minutes starting 5 hours before the game...so a Skyway extension to the satdium would just duplicate that service.

And then there's the crush after the game...if anyone has ever ridden public transit after a game in a big city, you know there is a need for extra vehicles waiting....I'm talking about even in full-on subway systems like DC, PHL, and ATL....now imagine how that would work (or not) with the little skyway vehicles.

Absolutely agree with this. The stadium shuttle works just fine so to spend millions to do the same function is not wise. If development comes to the Shipyards, more hotels/condos in the Sports Complex area - then add a Skyway line later.

More to your point TUFSU1 - but this kind of system isn't designed for 20k-50k to use at one time. That's why they have dozens of buses on game day. The money could be better used elsewhere than the Sports Complex - Riverside, Springfield, San Marco. Go to the people I say.

Quote from: Jason on May 27, 2011, 09:05:49 AM
I see where there will be benefits of connecting the neighborhoods first, however, my reasoning behind wanting to connect the stadium first is to garner the support of the rest of the Duval population living out in the burbs that will benefit during sporting events.  They will finally see the system as beneficial and start to realize its potential.  With a one way loop around the stadium we could almost run a steady line of max length trains with alternating express routes to the terminus' at the Prime and King's Ave Garage thereby eliminating the need for the busses.  This could also open up some of the stadium's parking lots for development, further enhancing the areas atmosphere.

IMO, once we gain the support of the suburbanites the opportunities will be endless.  

Totally. Whatever the next expansion is, it needs to be something that will increase ridership substantially; without boosting confidence in the skyway, further expenses are going to be an even tougher sell.

Idea #1:  Option 1 and Stadium District.  No need for BoA station. Central Station is 1-1/2 blocks away at Bell South Tower.  Do the hotel, APR and the field.  Stations don't have to be bigger, nor the trains, unless ridership warrants it.  They run constantly.  Already have a Riverside Trolley. Don't need to expand above ground tracks at big $$.  If you want to serve Riverside by rail instead, run light rail up Park Street from the Convention Center Station or the Jefferson Station.  Already have San Marco Station. Run light rail on the ground from there.

Idea #2:  Since streetcars and any type of rail is fixed, how about something more flexible?  How about much smaller shuttle buses running at 30 minute intervals on more convenient routes.  When I was young, on the Southside, there were three buses than ran within walking distance of my house.  San Souci on University, 35 Spring Park came up Beney Road, and the Phillips Highway bus went down Barnes Road by Englewood High...at 30 minute intervals.  Now, huge empty buses go by my house every morning.  The downtown buses leave Rosa Parks about 4:55, when most people get off at 5:00.  There are no more buses until 5:55.  Real convenient.

Jason, your phases leave out direct connection between westside/orange park and southside without needing to go through downtown.

As much as you want downtown to flourish, unless you have a direct route between said places, people will still use their cars. Even commuter rail through downtown is slower than a direct car route.

Quote from: jandar on May 27, 2011, 12:42:11 PM
As much as you want downtown to flourish, unless you have a direct route between said places, people will still use their cars. Even commuter rail through downtown is slower than a direct car route.

it wouldn't have been had we not widened the I-295 bridge...and now we're adding C/D roads on I-295 and then widening east of the bridge to 8 lanes.....these are the decisions being made!

Quote from: jandar on May 27, 2011, 12:42:11 PM
Jason, your phases leave out direct connection between westside/orange park and southside without needing to go through downtown.

As much as you want downtown to flourish, unless you have a direct route between said places, people will still use their cars. Even commuter rail through downtown is slower than a direct car route.

Express busses would be used to connect the outlying nodes in a more circuitous manner.  I think that DT should be the hub until the rest of the city densifies around the stations in the suburban areas such as Southpoint.  Once that happens then it may make sence to implement a more direct rail connection between the westside/OP and southside. 

Of the options, my choices would be the San Marco extension and the Stadium extension. 

I'd prefer Five Points over San Marco (I think Five Points is livelier and more youthful, and I also like the long straight, direct shot to the Stadium complex), but I don't think the Skyway was planned to ever get that far -- Five Points / Riverside.  Anybody???

Quote from: Debbie Thompson on May 27, 2011, 12:29:31 PM
Idea #1:  Option 1 and Stadium District.  No need for BoA station. Central Station is 1-1/2 blocks away at Bell South Tower.  Do the hotel, APR and the field.  Stations don't have to be bigger, nor the trains, unless ridership warrants it.  They run constantly.

Already have a Riverside Trolley. Don't need to expand above ground tracks at big $$.  If you want to serve Riverside by rail instead, run light rail up Park Street from the Convention Center Station or the Jefferson Station.  Already have San Marco Station. Run light rail on the ground from there.

Idea #2:  Since streetcars and any type of rail is fixed, how about something more flexible?  How about much smaller shuttle buses running at 30 minute intervals on more convenient routes.  When I was young, on the Southside, there were three buses than ran within walking distance of my house.  San Souci on University, 35 Spring Park came up Beney Road, and the Phillips Highway bus went down Barnes Road by Englewood High...at 30 minute intervals.  Now, huge empty buses go by my house every morning.  The downtown buses leave Rosa Parks about 4:55, when most people get off at 5:00.  There are no more buses until 5:55.  Real convenient.

Debbie, the reason for the BOA Tower is because it is/or has the potential to have one of the largest floods of commuters morning and night in the city. The Central Station handles ATT well but there is NOTHING connected to it. I'd connect the stations with the buildings, using a simple 3rd floor if needed. Further, the Skyway is a collector/distributor system for those building to building rides, it was NEVER intended to go beyond the CBD.  I would include BOA in an expanded system, and a streetcar,bus,Skyway interchange at Newnan/Hyatt. As lakelander is fond of saying the system can (and does in other cities) run THROUGH buildings. No reason every BOA train would need to stop at Central Station, as some have pointed out we could have express services available 'cha ching $$$' for a price to major companies wanting additional parking outside the area.

Riverside Streetcar will not be elevated, and will be IN THE STREET or private right of way. You can't use Light Rail of any type in San Marco because the railroad constantly blocks the crossings, that becomes SKYWAY TERRITORY by default.

Streetcars are preferred over buses for exactly the reasons you stated, buses are flexible. For that reason they DO NOT attract TOD type development or economic change we so desperately need. I'm a veteran of the old 70-NAVAL AIR, and the ARLINGTON EXPRESS myself, commuted for years on those buses.  It was an amazing experience, a society within a society type of thing. As I ran Trailways on 12 hour overnights, my JTA driver would wake me up at my Arlington stop!

Quote from: exnewsman on May 27, 2011, 10:52:18 AM

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on May 26, 2011, 08:45:23 PM
Look, there is no point expanding the Skyway anywhere else downtown, until it is first expanded to somewhere people actually live! E.g., Riverside, San Marco, Springfield, etc. The thing already goes to within just a short walk of most places downtown, continuing to add new stops in that area is a waste, and will NOT do anything to increase ridership. To increase ridership, and make the system self-sustaining, you need to connect places people need to go to and from, e.g. business with residential. Otherwise, nobody rides. You can't tell me a new $10mm station at the BOA tower is going to increase ridership, when the existing station in Hemming Plaza is literally two blocks away. The reason it's a failure is that it doesn't connect things that need connecting, e.g. business areas with residential areas with shopping areas. That's the basic formula for intra-city passenger transport folks. We need to do that, first.

Central Station is only 1/2 block from the BOA tower.

A BOA station should be built on the basis of making a example of large corporate box - meets good rail service, hell I'd run it through the building, but it would be so plain Jane nobody familiar with the current debacles that pass as stations would recognize them. Think park and ride to BOA, ATT, SHANDS, ETC...

But as you already know, I agree 100% that we need to get it into some residential area's FIRST, and your idea for the Eastside is quite cool, I'm working on a little graphic.

Quote from: tufsu1 on May 27, 2011, 08:20:18 AM
agreed Chris...fact is you could add more cars, but the station platforms are only so long...and you still need to keep a distance between trains...basically you reach max. capacity pretty quick, which is the problem DC metro now has in their downtown tunnel.

We own the plans and rights to build the middle cars... but never have. There are either 16g or 20 cars in the fleet already, all cab cars IE: they all have manual controls on board under the locked dash panel. 16 more cars would give us 8, 4 car trains, each with a capacity of about 120 passengers. A 6 car train bumps it to around 180 passengers each. The 6-8 car trains are the reason why I'd like to see an eventual change over to walk through-vestibule type monorail cars. Thus if only 3 cars fit the station, people in the ends can simply walk toward the open door cars. The senior planner over at JTA told be the system has a theoretical capacity of 30,000 PPHPD.

Quote from: iMarvin on May 27, 2011, 09:41:52 AM
I don't see why so many people want a streetcar here so bad. The skyway NEEDS to be finished before we introduce any new type of rail transit(except for commuter rail). If streetcars are built, the skyway will be DONE. Look at the streetcar map on JTA's website. It's gonna do the job that the skyway should be doing. I understand connecting at logical points and all, but if streetcars are going to the stadium on BAY STREET, or going down RIVERSIDE AVENUE, no one will ride the skyway.

Streetcars bring economic investment and change like no other mode in history has, the current return on a streetcar investment according to CINCINNATI STREETCAR is $14 dollars for every $1 dollar spent. Most any major city in the world has many complimenting systems and Jacksonville needs to wake up and realize it's not just a cowford anymore. In Medellin we had, heavy rail, streetcar, bus, rope cable way, and 10,000 cheap taxis.
The streetcars should not go to the stadium on Bay Street because they will completely miss the opportunity to link with the old rail line that ran from Maxwell House north to Gateway Mall and already belongs to the city.

CHECK THIS OUT:

Quote
Streetcars create new development
Ian McNulty


New Orleans streetcars are transit options that also contribute to the city’s ambiance. But as the New Orleans Regional Transit Authority (RTA) prepares to begin a new expansion of its streetcar system, it’s becoming clear that they can serve as a powerful economic development tool as well.

One year ago, the federal government awarded the RTA a grant totaling $45 million that the local agency will use on a new streetcar line stretching along Loyola Avenue in the Central Business District. The route is planned to connect the bus and train hub at the Union Passenger Terminal to the existing Canal streetcar line. Construction is expected to begin this spring with completion projected for mid-2012. Already, however, a string of major construction and revitalization projects have been announced in the area along the route. Combined with other nearby projects now taking shape, it’s generating new momentum in a corner of the city that has not gotten much attention in recent years.

In December, the local development firm the Domain Cos. announced plans for its South Market District project. The project would transform four blocks now covered by parking lots along Loyola Avenue into a cluster of new buildings holding some 450 apartments and 125,000 square feet of retail space. The same company has been building mixed-use developments along Tulane Avenue and in Mid-City at the site of the former Baumer Foods plant. South Market District is intended to provide upscale housing for people expected to work and live downtown as the city’s adjacent biomedical district develops.

“What we felt made this site ideal was the streetcar expansion,” says Matt Schwartz, a principal with the Domain Cos. “The most exciting development opportunities are really converging on this area.”

Nearby, the newly dubbed Benson Tower is returning to commerce with 26 floors of office space adjacent to the Superdome, where a new sports and entertainment district is also being crafted. Meanwhile, the Saratoga office building at 212 Loyola Ave. is being converted into the Saratoga Lofts with 155 new apartments, and in the fall the Hyatt Regency hotel is scheduled to reopen for the first time since Hurricane Katrina. After a $243 million renovation, the hotel will have nearly 1,200 rooms and 200,000 square feet of meeting space. Its entrance and ballrooms will overlook Loyola Avenue, where soon streetcars will soon be part of the view.

source: http://www.myneworleans.com/New-Orleans-Magazine/February-2011/Streetcars-create-new-development/

Remember those conceptual drawings that some students of Savannah College of Art and Design did for the shipyards?    http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2010-nov-a-vision-for-the-shipyards
A few of them would like to see the elevated Commodore Expressway removed, if they do that and expand the skyway all the way down to the stadium, maybe they could just remove the road deck of the expressway along the Bay St portion and use or modify the existing supports for the skyway to save some money?

Quote from: tufsu1 on May 27, 2011, 08:20:18 AM
agreed Chris...fact is you could add more cars, but the station platforms are only so long...and you still need to keep a distance between trains...basically you reach max. capacity pretty quick, which is the problem DC metro now has in their downtown tunnel.

The existing platforms are already long enough for longer skyway trains.  

true, they can be longer,,,but there's no way they can be long enough to handle the crush of folks leaving a Jags game...simply put, the Skyway isn't designed for that

Quote from: tufsu1 on May 27, 2011, 10:14:26 PM
true, they can be longer,,,but there's no way they can be long enough to handle the crush of folks leaving a Jags game...simply put, the Skyway isn't designed for that

Natural attrition . crowds, cars, buses, would work that out, setting fares high enough to balance capacity-demand, designing the entire service not to handle 65,000, or 30,000, but a substantial number that were previously parking. If the Skyway pulled away with just 16,000 per game the system ridership would have the entire nation buzzing about it. Assuming the train carries 3,000 per day today, during football season if it carried 16,000 per game that's an increase of 533.3333% unprecedented. If weekday ridership were 1,200 daily, then the increase on game day would be 1333.3333%, the same will hold true for streetcars. In only 8 game days the annual ridership would jump by 128,000. That kind of numbers ought to even get the republicans talking about it.  Not.  I don't expect that the Skyway would remove many more then the shuttles do today, but it would be fun to watch those numbers.

OCKLAWAHA

Had my first Skyway experience today. Here's what I think:

1. Plenty of room to have some small retail stands at those stations.
2. The areas around those stations could stand to have something useful nearby as well.
3. I counted gate openings for four more cars at one of the stations. (I didn't count at all stops)
4. I read here somewhere that the majority of the money already spent was the infrastructure that supports a much larger system. I looked around and it sure looks like this is true.
5. I love the Hemming Plaza stop.
6. I think it should be expanded somewhere, anywhere useful, because of #4.

Quote from: stephendare on May 27, 2011, 10:21:20 PM

Quote from: tufsu1 on May 27, 2011, 10:14:26 PM
true, they can be longer,,,but there's no way they can be long enough to handle the crush of folks leaving a Jags game...simply put, the Skyway isn't designed for that

this is the silliest thing I think Ive ever heard.

Are you under the impression that the entire city would immediately abandon their cars in the suburbs and ride the skyway all at once?

nope...just surmising that the system would have trouble handling anything more than maybe a few thousand fans in a 1 hour period...again, having taken transit to sporting events in big cities, you need extra trains and usually longer ones to handle the crowd after the game ends.

Can the Skyway handle the crush?  Because if not, imagine what people will say about the system...and how useless the expansion was if it can't work when people want to use it.

For a number of reasons the best extension for the skyway would be out to Atlantic Blvd in San Marco.  

Because of the time it takes to switch the guidebeam from one line to the other, an extension of an existing line would work better than the addition of a new line.  

So if you really want the skyway to go out to Riverside, then think about extending it out from the Convention Center station.  

Has an RFP gone out for this yet?

Quote from: danem on May 27, 2011, 10:36:52 PM
Had my first Skyway experience today. Here's what I think:

1. Plenty of room to have some small retail stands at those stations.
2. The areas around those stations could stand to have something useful nearby as well.
3. I counted gate openings for four more cars at one of the stations. (I didn't count at all stops)
4. I read here somewhere that the majority of the money already spent was the infrastructure that supports a much larger system. I looked around and it sure looks like this is true.
5. I love the Hemming Plaza stop.
6. I think it should be expanded somewhere, anywhere useful, because of #4.

That is exactly why I was so confused that our self-proclaimed fiscal conservatives were not jumping all over the opportunity to get more out of a previous investment.  They seemed to be more interested in spending 4 times the amount it would cost for an expansion of the skyway on new parking garages and overpasses.

Yup! Doug, That's us! "As I stood in the line-up, the entire city council was to my right, and to my far right was John Birch," a Jacksonville moment.  ;)

With train expansion and 2.5 minute headways I see no reason why the Skyway can't handle a solid 8,000 per hour from the stadium. Calculate in the folks that typically arrive several hours before game times and you might reach upwards of 12,000. Again it's is largely based on equipment and train length. But even at 8,000 per hour it would blow the socks off of the current traffic counts. Build the sports district station with a 10 car capacity, and buy the higher capacity, center cars. We could also expand Kings Avenue and since we're going to wreck the Jacksonville Terminal station and rebuild it, we could expand it too to handle an 8-10 car train. On game day special trains would run NON-STOP from the terminals at Kings Avenue where we should have another "mother of all garages." Streetcar on the F&J line could easily run entrain and thus the Gateway Mall parking lots might be used as well. With a capacity of nearly 100 per car I see no reason why a streetcar on this private railroad track (no street running) couldn't bring in 400-500 per train.

In short it can be done, it will take some thinking, something missing from our past ventures.

OCKLAWAHA 

Quote from: JC on May 27, 2011, 11:06:26 PM
Has an RFP gone out for this yet?

there are no plans to extend the Skyway...as such, no RFP has ben put out for the planning/environmental studies, much less design or construction

Quote from: Ocklawaha on May 28, 2011, 06:53:48 AM
With train expansion and 2.5 minute headways I see no reason why the Skyway can't handle a solid 8,000 per hour from the stadium. Calculate in the folks that typically arrive several hours before game times and you might reach upwards of 12,000. OCKLAWAHA 

ok...if we could get 8,000 in an hour than it might work...because it seems to me we'd reasonable want get 10,000 fans to use transit to/from the game.

I wonder how Miami's Metromover functioned with the old Miami arena (the new arena is a few blocks away)?

I believe the old Miami arena was adjacent to a Metrorail stop.  The Heat's new arena is about two blocks from the Metromover.  Cars are packed but it seemed to operate just fine when I was on it during a game night a few years back.  They just run more cars to deal with the peak trips.

Yeah the old arena had a metromover station right next to it. Actually, it was directly across the street from the main entrance. All you had to do was walk across the street.

Quote from: Ocklawaha on May 28, 2011, 06:53:48 AM
In short it can be done, it will take some thinking, something missing from our past ventures.

So true!  Thank goodness for the internet.  It was so much easier for the 'non-thinkers' to get away with stuff before this little gem came along.

Well here is the last word on possible capacity from Bombardier themselves... Just add those center cars or better yet buy fixed 4-6 car trains. Now calculate these running on 2 minute headways and you'd have a pretty accurate picture of what our monorail COULD be. With 6 cars and medium full load, there is every reason to believe that 13,500 ppdph is possible. This assumes a fleet of trains

BRT NUMBERS for you "let's buy more buses" types:
1 lane everywhere : 150 buses-pdph* = 100 passengers per bus = 15000 ppdph*
                           150 buses-pdph = 160 passengers per bus = 24000 ppdph
                     *pdph=per direction/per hour, *ppdph=passengers per direction per hour
This of course assumes JTA or another carrier has 150 buses just laying around to be used on special days. It also assumes 150 BRAND NEW articulated buses (which are laying around) and that you'll use 150 drivers to achieve this performance... the Achilles heal of highway transit.





OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: Ocklawaha on May 26, 2011, 05:16:04 PM
Okay, here is the "OFFICIAL SKYWAY EXPANSION THREAD" It's here for you to vote and comment on, and I've set it up for Skyway supporters only.

Anti Skyway tirades will be deleted.
(REASON FOR DELETING? Because we want to know your opinion on positive ideas and concepts for the little railway)

This is not to say we can't have a healthy give and take on the positive aspects of this thread, IE:  "I like this idea more because..." or "I completely disagree with that plan or concept because..."

I'm also going to bend a bit and allow reposting of pertinent posts from the past, if you think you've got a post or drawing/map/or diagram that qualifies lets dig it our and try it on our fresh audience.

Have fun and let's do the work for them! And remember Uncle Ock is watching, so don't try and spoil the party.


OCKLAWAHA

My Honest take on the Skyway.

It needs to go where people ARE.

People are in Riverside, People are in Springfield. Five Points and 8th & Main would be the perfect locations for both neighborhoods.

Sports Complex is the 3rd most important section that needs to get rail. Those are just baby steps and all 3 areas need to be covered. Maybe eventually go down to Beaver & Davis and have a La Villa Station...seems to be much open land in that area. Thats all I got. Ill read the thread now.

Ock.. which one of these extensions would be the LEAST expensive to do at this stage in the game?

Quote from: Keith-N-Jax on May 26, 2011, 11:41:59 PM
As soon as Jacksonville was awarded an NFL franchise construction to the stadium should have started the next day. :) With a new arena hosting many events and hopefully metropark and shipyard improvements in the future serious thought in this needs to take place. Streetcar in Riverside probably wont happen.

I like Streetcar IN Riverside, but NOT Streetcar TO Riverside. The Skyway should at go to Post and Margaret by the duck pond across from the church. Easy access to Riverside ave, Park Str, 5 Points, Post Str, College and Edison.

Quote from: Coolyfett on May 28, 2011, 11:28:36 PM

Quote from: Keith-N-Jax on May 26, 2011, 11:41:59 PM
As soon as Jacksonville was awarded an NFL franchise construction to the stadium should have started the next day. :) With a new arena hosting many events and hopefully metropark and shipyard improvements in the future serious thought in this needs to take place. Streetcar in Riverside probably wont happen.

I like Streetcar IN Riverside, but NOT Streetcar TO Riverside. The Skyway should at go to Post and Margaret by the duck pond across from the church. Easy access to Riverside ave, Park Str, 5 Points, Post Str, College and Edison.

How would that be possible with the Interstate over pass between Brooklyn and Riverside

Quote from: Timkin on May 28, 2011, 11:26:52 PM
Ock.. which one of these extensions would be the LEAST expensive to do at this stage in the game?

San Marco, would be the easiest build, it would contingent on the right-of-way deal with the Florida East Coast.

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: Timkin on May 28, 2011, 11:30:54 PM

Quote from: Coolyfett on May 28, 2011, 11:28:36 PM

Quote from: Keith-N-Jax on May 26, 2011, 11:41:59 PM
As soon as Jacksonville was awarded an NFL franchise construction to the stadium should have started the next day. :) With a new arena hosting many events and hopefully metropark and shipyard improvements in the future serious thought in this needs to take place. Streetcar in Riverside probably wont happen.

I like Streetcar IN Riverside, but NOT Streetcar TO Riverside. The Skyway should at go to Post and Margaret by the duck pond across from the church. Easy access to Riverside ave, Park Str, 5 Points, Post Str, College and Edison.

How would that be possible with the Interstate over pass between Brooklyn and Riverside

It's a very tall bridge you just run the tracks underneath.

Quote from: Coolyfett on May 28, 2011, 11:28:36 PM

Quote from: Keith-N-Jax on May 26, 2011, 11:41:59 PM
As soon as Jacksonville was awarded an NFL franchise construction to the stadium should have started the next day. :) With a new arena hosting many events and hopefully metropark and shipyard improvements in the future serious thought in this needs to take place. Streetcar in Riverside probably wont happen.

I like Streetcar IN Riverside, but NOT Streetcar TO Riverside. The Skyway should at go to Post and Margaret by the duck pond across from the church. Easy access to Riverside ave, Park Str, 5 Points, Post Str, College and Edison.

I know this is a make believe thread on skyway extensions people would like to see but in reality, none of them will come close to happening without other improvements happening within our local mass transit system, including the streetcar to Riverside.  The political will isn't there.  One of the best ways to get that will there will be to rally around our realistic projects (streetcar from DT to Park & King, S-Line commuter rail corridor, Amtrak/JTC, etc.) and do all we can to push them into use, along with having all mass transit integrated properly with the skyway. When that day comes, it will be much easier to extend the skyway in al directions.  Btw, I really like the idea of extending it to the farmer's market/Dennis Street areas.  That section of town could become a pretty cool warehouse/market district but its been completely overlooked by most urbanites.

It will be easier to extend the skyway to San Marco than to build a streetcar line in Riverside. 

As noted in this thread, a lot of the skyway infrastructure is already in place.

Can a skyway line transition into a light rail line?  Or, would a passenger have to get off at an ending skyway node to get on a beginning light rail node?  

If given the option, I like light rail over skyway.  I'm not a fan of the out-of-scale raised foundations that skyways require.  They kill views of buildings and cast further shadows on mostly sun stricken, dense environments.  I think light rail, on-ground systems are more user friendly, more inviting, better fit into surroundings, and are cheaper.

I know this a pro-skyway thread only, but can someone explain how skyways and light rail tie into into one another?  And, why one would want a skyway over a lightrail in Jacksonville?

I'm a fan of rail, but if all else equal I'd rather spend $100mil on more light rail than less sky rail.  

(one quick clarification to above, previous comment)...I know the skyway would have to come down to ground level to transition to light rail.  I'm more asking if the actual car and rail used on a skyway can be used on light rail.  Thanks.

No but streetcar can same rails can be used.

Quote from: Dashing Dan on May 29, 2011, 11:21:23 AM
It will be easier to extend the skyway to San Marco than to build a streetcar line in Riverside. 

As noted in this thread, a lot of the skyway infrastructure is already in place.

Construction wise, but not when it comes to political will. That's the simple reality of things when politics come into play.  If I had things my way, the skyway would have been extended years ago, so you're preaching to the choir.

The political will behind the streetcar has not been tested yet.

^The will of both were tested over the past couple of years with the creation of the 2035 LRTP, Mobility Plan and COJ Visioning Plans.  While I'm sure there will be more debate as the project gets closer to happening, the concept just didn't fall off the turnip truck and right into the mobility plan without being discussed in multiple venues.

Talk is cheap.  It's going to be a bumpy ride down Park Street.

Talk is cheap.  Getting it into the LRTP, developing a funding mechanism for a starter line and getting that approved by council isn't.  Being involved in the middle of all of this, I can tell you it took a few years and a lot of hard work.  Tried doing the same for the skyway and it quickly went down in flames.  Now its going to be up to people like us to make sure that money goes to what its intended to be used for instead of the alternative which would be taking out half of Riverside to widen Park or Riverside Avenues to four or six lanes to deal with growing traffic congestion.  

Quote from: Dashing Dan on May 29, 2011, 03:38:54 PM
Talk is cheap.

Gas isn't.

I talk up the extension of the Skyway in San Marco because that is where I live and work.  If I were in Riverside, I would be talking up the streetcar line.  If the S-line ran through my neighborhood, I would be talking that up (but I really don't even know off the top of my head where that is...)  I am all for the streetcar line and the S-line and will support them both.  But neither impact me quite as directly.

So, my question is - where are all of the supporters?  Is there a push from RAP to get the streetcar done?  Or from ____ to get the S-line done?

Streetcar or no streetcar - it would be pretty hard to imagine any road widening projects in Riverside or Avondale.

Oak wouldn't need to be widened as it was designed for the streetcar that used to be there. Oak would serve the Riverside starter line well.

Up to recently, Park was listed as a candidate to be widened to 6 lanes through Brooklyn and Riverside Avenue was widened to six lanes a few years back. JTA has also recently looked into putting BRT through Riverside. Projections indicate that both Park and Riverside will be congested in 20 years. There are only so many ways to deal with the problem and still meet the goals of the visioning plans, LRTP and requirements of old SB 360. The streetcar happened to be the cheapest. Doug, every project has an impact on your community in some indirect way. Your neighborhood's skyway extension was removed from the plan because it could have taken the entire plan down (politics). However, I think we all know the skyway won't ultimately be successful until it's fed with riders from a more extensive mass transit system. Things like integrating the bus system with the skyway, streetcars, commuter rail to other neighborhoods, etc. Do just that. So while you should certainly continue to talk up the extension to San Marco, supporting the other lines also help your effort. Dashing Dan, speaking of support for these systems, it was done in the form of individual residents participating in the public venues held for the vision planning process, LRTP process, Mobility Plan, etc. It would be great to have groups like RAP jump on board in the future. Maybe you can help with that? Imo, instead of us being negative about them, as urban core advocates, we should be coming together to push the momentum forward and continuing to build upon the grassroots support already in place.

Btw, if you wanted to widen a street through Riverside, the ROW is already available. If I recall, most of Riverside's street ROWs are 80' wide. That's more than enough to get a four lane road in there, at the expense of on-street parking (Five Points included). However, such a solution would not be in the best interest of the community and neither would high frequency BRT or doing nothing.

Quote from: thelakelander on May 29, 2011, 09:01:38 PM
Btw, if you wanted to widen a street through Riverside, the ROW is already available. If I recall, most of Riverside's street ROWs are 80' wide. That's more than enough to get a four lane road in there, at the expense of on-street parking (Five Points included). However, such a solution would not be in the best interest of the community and neither would high frequency BRT or doing nothing.

Might as well add a street car instead. Who wants to worry about getting run over by more rows of cars over there?

That potential congestion issue needs to be hammered on constantly! I was at SJTC the other afternoon on a weekday, where it was once again a constant flow of cars each with one person inside...stop and go...stop and go...as other areas grow and get more popular, that's what's in store for those areas too. Even without as much knowledge of city planning as some of you have, I can't believe anyone wants more of THAT.  ;)

This is a make-believe thread, but the data in it is serious as a heart attack... As we cuss and discuss the various in's and out's of Skyway and Streetcar it should be remembered that political eyes are on us constantly. Who is the Mayor? You can thank Metrojacksonville for that. Laura Street Beautification, Metrojacksonville again. Stopping the ridiculous JTA plan for elevated bus freeways throughout the city at a $BILLION DOLLARS cost, Your Welcome Jacksonville. Streetcars in Jacksonville? 30+ years of lobbying and work from the Metrojacksonville group.

Now we are talking about logical, defensible, logical, Skyway extension... Who do you think is looking on and who is thinking? Let's get after this and push like hell.

OCKLAWAHA

Lake what did you think of the San Marco Station layout concept graphic? Doug?

OCKLAWAHA

This thread is supposed to be about the skyway.  The poll shows a clear preference.  Let's leave the streetcar discussions for another thread.

Quote from: Ocklawaha on May 29, 2011, 11:58:48 PM
Lake what did you think of the San Marco Station layout concept graphic? Doug?

I like everything except the bus loop internal to the site.  I believe the JTA buses should continue to transfer at Kings Avenue Station.  As much of the San Marco Station (on Atlantic) should be reserved for retail/office spaces and parking as possible.  A neighborhood shuttle would need to have a stop at the new station, but it wouldn't need to circulate through the site.  It could make a u-turn on Atlantic and stop along the side of the road.

Now - moving to the stadium expansion... I never thought about a loop around the stadium - that is cool.  But, for the sake of frequency of use, I think it would be better to get closer to the arena and baseball stadium and then go into the neighborhood on the north side of the expressway.

Ock, I agree with Doug on both points about the skyway being expanded into San Marco and the Stadium/Eastside area. Dashing Dan, we all know that our mass transit modes should be linked and properly integrated. You can't discuss one without acknowledging the other. Maybe it's me, but it sounds like you may not be a fan of the streetcar. That's cool, we'll just have to work around you when it comes to gathering more community support for making sure the money generated for it isn't used for road projects in the urban core. Regarding the skyway and it overcoming political will for expansion, what do you believe is the best method to break the opposition down and how long do you think such a process would take?

Let's talk about streetcars someday, but let's not scare people into thinking that they would be an antidote to a street widening project in Riverside. 

This "exclusive" thread is about the skyway.

I don't think you can have an expansion and improvement discussion without bringing up ancillary modes of transportation. Even foot traffic.

If  recommendations are made regarding routing and placement of stations for the skyway, then reasons why such conclusions are better than others must take into account how you get to those points and then back again to your original point of departure.

If a decision to site a skyway station adjacent to a potential RR station at Atlantic Blvd. is based on transferring from one to another then one would also have to consider that there will already be a transfer point at the new transportation center accomplishing the same thing, therefore a new RR station would be superfluous.

If it is to provide an embarkation point to ride the skyway to downtown or to the transportation center to catch another ride and to get to that station you have to take a shuttle or bus, then the station is superfluous and an unnecessary expense because the shuttle or bus could go just a little further down the street and around the corner for a few blocks and get to the existing station.

There will be other factors to consider but you can't rule out comparisons and discussions that will have a direst bearing on any expansion or improvement ideas and efforts.

There's a difference between

#1 - talking about other modes in relation to the skyway, and

#2 - talking about streetcars in relation to possibility of road widening projects in Riverside. 

At least in this thread, let's stick with #1 and avoid #2.

If we set up another thread to talk about #2, then I don't think that fear mongering is going to help any of us to make a case for streetcars in Riverside.

Go back and review the entire thread, I personally don't see what the problem is. They are both related and the streetcar only entered the discussion because someone asked if it were possible to convert the skyway to streetcar or LRT. It's still a skyway discussion but you can't realistically talk skyway expansion without knowing why to expand into certain areas and how expanding will improve our entire mass transit system.  If you can't approach mass transit holistically on MJ, where can you?

Btw, I also agree with sticking with #1, in regards to the streetcar and it's relationship with the skyway, buses and commuter rail. It's actually in the mobility plan and has a realistic chance of happening this decade. Now we need to figure out how to properly integrate this with the skyway to get better utilization out of the skyway.

Lake, Doug, About the multi modal station at Atlantic and the Skyway/FEC RY SEE PG 6 POST 77. I want to tweak it to see what the retail/office space would look like on the same pedestrian island as the transit shelters, One could also route buses by making turnouts on Atlantic itself. We're not likely to have 20 min commuter rail service, and if we do it will only be for 2 hours morning and evening, with another run or two tossed in for good measure during the day. Thus it's important in light of the Atlantic changes that the station be able to handle a line up of buses to meet the train whenever it arrives, the Skyway IS the shuttle. I'll rework it and post it, but meanwhile, others? TALK TO ME PEOPLE!

I would not replace Kings Avenue Station as the main multimodal center, but I would hub everything west of Philips Highway in the form of bus service there. Remember the new OVERLAND BRIDGE will make Atlantic, freeway accessible, something that is going to change transit in this city for decades to come.

The purpose of a rail/bus/Skyway interchange is ease of access. It is not redundant. If there is no San Marco/Atlantic stop on the rail system, or Skyway, every building on the south bank will suffer the inconvenience. Certainly one COULD ride the train into Jacksonville Terminal, then ride the Skyway to Central Station, then ride the Skyway south again... The same would be true of bus transfers. It's not just Atlantic either, the rail line from END TO END, should be the transit hub for all modes, be it JTA at Atlantic, or Baymeadows, or Sunshine Bus at Highway 210 or Racetrack Road.

As lake has stated it is impossible to discuss the Skyway without discussing how it will mix and interact with it's connections, because those connections are just route extensions of the Skyway, or RAIL, or Streetcar. As the connections go,  so goes the Skyway.  First thing one hears on the plane or train in busier stations is an announcement that your connection with xxx will be at xxx gate for xxx... etc... As we build the system we need to have these discussions under our belt.

Lastly this IS an exclusive thread on Skyway growth, and I don't plan to exclude the connections from their part in the Skyway discussion. The ones who will not be welcomed on this thread are the usual anti-everything the Skyway is a waste bunch. God knows we have had that discussion come up on every single thread that could have, would have, or should have been productive of ideas. As I said, yes, its make-believe, but the ideas tossed out in these discussions go from your screen directly into the very heart of the city, JTA, FDOT, etc.


OCKLAWAHA

Ock....  IF the Annie Station became a reality , would you envision Streetcar running near it ?  Some ideas for Tenants?

I would like to see the Skyway come to completion for any destination where it would connect retail and ridership.  Since it exists, to me it would seem to be money wasted to now , completely undo it.
As I get older, I tend to like driving much less.   If Transit develops the way I think it can and should , Id happily park the car and ride.  Especially Skyway/ Streetcar/Rail

W/regards to option #1: Are the Skyway cars shaped in a way to support advertising placed on the roof? 

Quote from: Jdog on May 31, 2011, 08:37:05 AM
W/regards to option #1: Are the Skyway cars shaped in a way to support advertising placed on the roof? 

You mean like those little triangular signs on the top of taxies and pizza delivery cars?

They could be painted like the city buses already are.

Quote from: Ralph W on May 31, 2011, 12:18:29 PM

Quote from: Jdog on May 31, 2011, 08:37:05 AM
W/regards to option #1: Are the Skyway cars shaped in a way to support advertising placed on the roof? 

You mean like those little triangular signs on the top of taxies and pizza delivery cars?

Hi Ralph,

I was actually thinking ads painted flat on the roof so as to be visible to those in the high-rises (I guess there are some against wrap-advertising that you can see from the ground). 

Eddie Farah, John Morgan and Bill Harrell gazing piously upward. I'd never look out the window again.

Why not just wrap the entire car?

(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-3521-p1060562.JPG)
Wrap advertising on the Detroit Peoplemover.

I'm all for that.  Still surprised it hasn't happened yet.   

I like the idea. Those cars look good.

What about street vendors? There is enough space in those stations for a small Walgreens! Why are we not using it?  Lake do you have any photos of those tiny kiosk type stores.

OCKLAWAHA

Man, you can't put anything in those spaces - they were designed to queue up the mobs of people waiting to board the train. JTA spent a fortune on extra velvet ropes and stands. All modeled after the Disney "D" or "E" ticket rides.

If I have only one vote it would be stadium district.  If I can be greedy I would add San Marco, Springfield and Five Points.  Talk about connectivity.

I think 5 points via Annie Lytle should be first.  It needs to happen anyway, and the schoolhouse cannot be put off for many more years before our esteemed Code Enforcement starts eyeing it to demolish it.

Quote from: thelakelander on May 31, 2011, 02:07:34 PM
Why not just wrap the entire car?

(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-3521-p1060562.JPG)
Wrap advertising on the Detroit Peoplemover.

It would be a great idea, however, they squawked at this during the superbowl.  I couldn't figure out why.  They wrap buses duh!  Same difference.

Just expand it to the stadium. You get 5-10,000 every Jags game, and a few hundred for Suns games, you get huge revenue.

The best vote for the skyway is to get Amtrak downtown.  If the number quoted on the site is true 72,000 on and off a year.  That would help the skyway as much as anything.

Quote from: charlestondxman on July 10, 2011, 12:52:06 AM
Just expand it to the stadium. You get 5-10,000 every Jags game, and a few hundred for Suns games, you get huge revenue.

Agreed, the idea that Peyton and Company didn't want to complete the stadium line in time for the SuperBowl shows just how out of touch the boy wonder really was. I wasn't even in the USA at the time and I HEARD COMPLAINTS ABOUT THE DEAD END MONORAIL.

Imagine your extension is completed, it also soars over the Matthews/Arlington Expy and has a station up on Randolph at about Jessie Street, in the heart of the east side. The trains are stretched out to 6-8 cars using the
unbuilt 'center car' design (I have the drawings). Suddenly weekday traffic jumps about 200% and the game day traffic is equal in one day to a month of current service.

V I S I O N ! JTA? Time to pull your head out.

OCKLAWAHA

The thing is, as much as I am all for expansion to an extent, many cities are having difficulties paying for their more extensive systems right now.  Do we foresee any state DOT funding for operations (and expansion) of the Skyway or for another system for that matter?

Atlanta has 3x the property taxes and higher fees and 400,000 daily riders and $2.00 base fare (as low as it goes if you buy in bulk per trip), and MARTA is still basically bankrupt.  Our state does not help out at all, and only Fulton and Dekalb counties cover the expenses.  They have increased headways outside of rush hour to near 20 minutes, shortened train lengths, shortened hours, and now base fare is increasing to $2.50 a trip (so a person like me who only needs to go 1-2 stations away has to pay the same, $2.50, as someone who is coming from North Springs to the airport).  Oh, and keep that in mind...most people in Atlanta take the train to the airport and to sporting events, and our airport is the largest in the world and we have (now) 3 professional  sports teams.  That and concerts draw huge train crowds, and MARTA is still putting a hole in Atlanta's budget of tens of millions of dollars a year.

Our skyway will never be a 48 mile long system like MARTA is, but even if we expand it by 2-3 more miles and double the length of the trains, and put advertising on the trains, and ridership increases dramatically, it would still probably be a money loser.  It is just so hard to make public transit profitable, so Jacksonville would have to be prepared for the expense.

Now I know that it could spur development and increase the tax base, and indirectly make up the expense that way, but 99% of people aren't going to see it that way.  It will be an uphill battle financially and politically no matter what.

10 Years ago you would not have caught a suburbanite in Cobb or Gwinnett County dead crying for MARTA, and now they are all clamoring for it.  Here in the south traffic has to be as bad as it is in Atlanta for people to really want public transit options no matter the cost.  In addition to our streetcar line and soon to be light rail loop, MARTA is potentially going to expand with two more lines...one out to Johns Creek (a suburb made out of nowhere from 3 other suburbs) and one to the Cumberland/Vinings area going East to Perimeter (not even connecting to Midtown/Downtown).

Having 3 million people in the area in 1990 was not enough to justify further expansion (well I guess there were small expansions in the 1990s intown and in Perimeter, which is still Fulton County...Sandy Springs actually).  Having 4.2 million people in 2000 was not enough either.  Now we have 5.4 million people, with 3.6 million people in the central 1,500 square miles, and traffic out in the burbs is an absolute nightmare.  They are now tolling our suburban HOV lanes (and there will be 2 HOT lanes in each direction in addition to the 6-7 non high occupancy lanes in each direction).  That's how bad it is.  That's probably how bad it needs to be in 2011 for people to start realizing that having options is a good thing.  Jax just doesn't have any kind of traffic resembling that yet.

The Skyway is as politically frowned upon as MARTA once was (MARTA for more racial/poor planning/crime points of view and Skyway for giant waste of money point of view, well and poor planning POV).

Quote from: simms3 on July 10, 2011, 10:59:55 AM
The thing is, as much as I am all for expansion to an extent, many cities are having difficulties paying for their more extensive systems right now.  Do we foresee any state DOT funding for operations (and expansion) of the Skyway or for another system for that matter?

There is currently in place funding through the Federal Government for Skyway Expansion. The new transportation bill is bipartisan and is going to at a bare minimum continue to fund at the current rate with adjustments for inflation. When Boxer and Inhoff see eye to eye, you can bet something great is about to burst on the scene.

QuoteOur skyway will never be a 48 mile long system like MARTA is, but even if we expand it by 2-3 more miles and double the length of the trains, and put advertising on the trains, and ridership increases dramatically, it would still probably be a money loser.  It is just so hard to make public transit profitable, so Jacksonville would have to be prepared for the expense.

Profitable as what? J. Turner Butler? Roosevelt? I-75? I-95? US-17? One more time here, ZERO transportation pays for itself 100% with the singular exception of freight rail and some inter-oceanic shipping. All of the 'user fee's' paid by the interstate bus and trucking industries combined wouldn't patch the potholes in the Pennsylvania Turnpike.  Tell us about profit out at Hartsfield as soon as DELTA, AMERICAN or SOUTHWEST start building their own airports, traffic control systems, research and administrative networks. FAT CHANCE! Even the private automobile is an ever decreasing return on an ever increasing expense.  AMTRAK? That one Federal program that some would have us believe is about to bring down the entire government? NOT A SINGLE ROUTE MAKES MONEY... In spite of what some have said or written about the Northeast Corridor... NOT ONE, NADA.

Frankly the Skyway's deficits would be much more tolerable if it was carrying the loads that it was first predicted to carry.  While it is a long - long - way off from what our 65 mile streetcar system once produced (36,500,000 annual passengers) Removing 783,000 people a year from downtown's streets is nothing to sneeze at.

Center cars added, Stadium/Eastside, San Marco at Atlantic, Farm Market/Woodstock, Brooklyn/Annie Lytle, would each probably double the ridership. Moreover it would allow us to actually REMOVE most buses from the downtown streets. This is something that many have promoted on these pages but in reality, until the Skyway serves ALL of the downtown, including everything east of Hogan, it's a pipedream.  

QuoteNow I know that it could spur development and increase the tax base, and indirectly make up the expense that way, but 99% of people aren't going to see it that way.  It will be an uphill battle financially and politically no matter what.

Ask most anyone in Jacksonville what the Skyway is supposed to be and you'll hear such insanity as downtown-airport, or the beaches, or Orange Park etc. FACT is the Skyway is built on the bones of an automated people mover system not unlike the ones at Orlando International Airport. Imagine taking a trip to the beaches from downtown in one of those little boxes? NOT! The Skyway was never intended to be more then an urban distributor system, never a citywide transit, or urban-suburban mass transit line. Downtown and 3-5 miles out and you've reached the end of it's effectiveness.

But imagine for a minute that all of the suburban bus routes tied into the terminals. Imagine it was running 20/7/365 and that workday, or gameday headways were 2 minutes. Imagine it reached Baptist Hospital, Aetna, BOA, Hyatt, EverBank Field, Blue Cross, Fidelity, Farm Market and Annie. Compliment the whole thing with streetcars on Water/Independence, Newnan, Lee, Beaver, Duval, and/or Monroe and Bay west of Lee. Streetcars that would someday reach those more distant points as true light-rail. Imagine you didn't have to drive in the Blanding Blvd. BS every morning or evening... Sell it to me as a choice, an alternative to an increasingly hotter version of highway hell and tell me people wouldn't flock to support it.

QuoteThat's how bad it is.  That's probably how bad it needs to be in 2011 for people to start realizing that having options is a good thing.  Jax just doesn't have any kind of traffic resembling that yet.

Ask anyone from East McKeesport, PA to Alta Loma (unfinished furniture capital of the world) California, and they'll all tell you that at such and such a place the traffic is worse then yours. That's a fantasy, I've lived about 1/3 of my life in Southern (FREEWAY) California, right smack in the middle of LOS ANGELES, and I've spent 5 hours one evening on the San Bernandino Freeway in total system collapse-grid lock. Guess what? Blanding between Wells Road and Collins Road is just as bad on a daily basis as any in the country.

It wouldn't be hard to convince someone from Orange Park/Middleburg/Flemming Island that an alternative to the highway was a good thing, they instinctively know it. What really sucks and what the battle is all about is the basic concepts that they don't understand. Calling the Florida HSR line 'light-rail' or suggesting that an Clay County commuter train is a new high speed rail project, expecting transit to be directly profitable or building Skyway's to Callahan. Be it Los Angeles, Atlanta, or Jacksonville, we all share the learning curve and Jacksonville has no lock on transit ignorance.

OCKLAWAHA

+ 1000

nicely put

Quote from: Ocklawaha on July 10, 2011, 02:10:58 PM
There is currently in place funding through the Federal Government for Skyway Expansion. The new transportation bill is bipartisan and is going to at a bare minimum continue to fund at the current rate with adjustments for inflation. When Boxer and Inhoff see eye to eye, you can bet something great is about to burst on the scene.

which bill would that be? 

right now there are at least 3 different versions being bantered about in Congress...and there is actually a good chance that the new bill won't have a funding increase vs. the 2004 bill....plus the likelihood that the FTA New Starts program gets modified big time.

From the APTA website:

QuoteOn Wednesday, May 27, Senate Environment and Public Works Committee (EPW) Chairman Barbara Boxer (D-CA), Ranking Member James Inhofe (R-OK), Transportation & Infrastructure Subcommittee Chairman Max Baucus (D-MT), and Subcommittee Ranking Member David Vitter (R-LA) issued a joint statement on their draft transportation reauthorization legislation, Moving Ahead for Progress in the 21st Century (MAP-21). While stating that there is still work to be done, the release announced that MAP-21 “will fund programs at current levels in order to maintain and modernize our critical transportation infrastructure.”

In a press conference subsequent to the statement’s release, Chairman Boxer announced the committee is planning a $339.2 billion bill, which is equivalent to current levels, plus modest growth to account for inflation.

Sure it could be changed, cut or "Micaized," but even if it were, the reason the Skyway is dead in the water can be found over on Myrtle Avenue, not Washington or Tallahassee or City Hall.

OCKLAWAHA

the Senate bill differs greatly from the one recently introduced by Mica in the House

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,12624.15/topicseen.html