Metro Jacksonville

QuoteThree things that don't exist: The Loch Ness Monster, Bigfoot and a Jacksonville Regional Transportation Center at the Prime Osborn Convention Center.

And although it's possible more people believe they'll eventually see Nessie or a sasquatch, the Jacksonville Transportation Authority may soon offer tangible proof that a transportation hub is in the city's future.

Read more at: http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2011-05-16/story/jta-making-progress-new-regional-transit-hub-prime-osborn-center

yes...some re-designs are in the works....from what I understand, the office building is on-hold and the top priorities are Greyhound and Amtrak...and the traffic management center (originally slated for the office building) will be constructed elsewhere.

and while I understand the Greyhound locationm next to the AT&T tower may be seen as a negative to some, calling it blight is not appropriate....I, for one, happen to like the mid-century modern design of the existing terminal and the blue BUS lights are pretty cool at night.

I agree about the existing terminal, it's an interesting building.  The clientelle howerer can be rather sketchy.

Was just about to say the same thing about the Greyhound station.  Convert it to something else and preserve the sign, and make it an iconic location, like the "Union Station - Travel By Train" sign in Denver et al.  As excited as I was about Everbank's downtown relocation, tearing down the station is an awful idea.

I have a feeling when everyone speaks of blight, they aren't talking about the building, which happens to be in pretty good shape.  I think most are afraid of the clientele. While, the clientele doesn't bother me one bit, it's clear in these conversations that a segment of our population has a problem with our urban core's demographics.

why didn't everbank locate downtown originally instead of Brooklyn?  What will happen to the building they are in now?  Would have been nice if that structure was downtown to begin with.  

I believe Everbank would be relocating their Southside offices, not the one in Brooklyn.

Lake, I agree with your comment. The "dirty" appearance comment is not relating to the building but the ridership.  Looks like moving it a few blocks is supposed to handle that problem.

A $5 million investment in a clean and newer.

Quote"Unfortunately we have a blight problem in the downtown," Barton said. "And Greyhound contributes to it."

The eventual head of Brown's (if elected) DDA called it like he saw it. Yet there is griping about it, even though the DDA head called it blight.

I love the hypocrisy!

QuoteI don't think Barton will be the head of a DDA, actually.  Nor does he want to be the head of a separate agency called the DDA---which has traditionally involved another appointed Board of Directors.

So, we create a new governmental entity which operates outside of the JEDC? I don't see that happening, DDA was under JEDC before and I see it going back, if it happens at all.

Barton may not want it, but then again, did he really want Lindsey leaving for her new job next week? It is tough to find good people, she was a good one. Sorry to see her go.

The Greyhound termninal is not "blight."

I have to agree. I actually like the Greyhound Station. it's too bad that many have a negative view of it. Did anyone notice in the article, greyhound isnt going to move until there is something else there i.e. Amtrak. This could be more than 5 years away.

Quote from: thelakelander on May 16, 2011, 09:01:21 AM
I believe Everbank would be relocating their Southside offices, not the one in Brooklyn.

Everbank is planing on relocating their southside and Brooklyn personnel to the AT&T building to make it the Everbank building downtown.

Quote from: JeffreyS on May 16, 2011, 10:26:01 AM

Quote from: thelakelander on May 16, 2011, 09:01:21 AM
I believe Everbank would be relocating their Southside offices, not the one in Brooklyn.

Everbank is planing on relocating their southside and Brooklyn personnel to the AT&T building to make it the Everbank building downtown.

So the Everbank building on Brooklyn, will be empty with everbanks name on it? Are there other teanets in that building? Im lost

There are other tenants in the current Everbank building.

I guess it would make sense for Everbank to want all of its people in one location, but I really like having them where they are since I can walk there to make deposits and they give my dogs treats when we go in.  Sharp, nice people in that branch.

There are a lot of other tenants in the Riverside Ave. building including the owner, an investment firm.  Paul Hardin's office is there too.

I have not heard they be relocating their Brooklyn tenants, only the ones from Southside.

The NY Bus Terminal in Manhattan isn't exactly a thing of beauty either but it's not stopping development from coming in around it.  At least the Greyhound block has activity which is a far cry better than another vacant lot or parking garage.

No one is going to want to build another structure on that property anytime soon given the state of the economy or downtown.  The best outcome would be to renovate the complex into a multi-use facility of retail and entertainment.  The building might make for a great urban grocery store .  The outdoor bus parking would, with a small amount of landscaping, make for a nice outdoor eating area for a food court or outdoor venue for a music based club/bar given it's already got an enclosure around most of it.  I'm sure others could come up with a few more ideas rather easily.  The building is a downtown icon and we sure can't afford to lose any more of those.

Just talked with Debbie, Greg Anderson's executive assistant in the Riverside office.  He is out of the office this week for obvious reasons.  She says that the people in the offices of EverMortgage, their home mortgage division, will be moving downtown, but that there are no current plans to move the executive offices or branch there from the building in Brooklyn.

Once again, great points Stjr.  DT Jax has a ton of problems but that Greyhound station isn't one of them.  However, when they do relocate, there are a number of adaptive reuse ideas worth considering for the building.

Quote from: Wacca Pilatka on May 16, 2011, 08:38:48 AM
Was just about to say the same thing about the Greyhound station.  Convert it to something else and preserve the sign, and make it an iconic location, like the "Union Station - Travel By Train" sign in Denver et al.  As excited as I was about Everbank's downtown relocation, tearing down the station is an awful idea.

+1
Do NOT tear down the Greyhound station!  I like the big sign too.

As an aside, although I'm sure it's probably not the original building or even the same location, if anyone has seen the classic 1930's Frank Capra screwball comedy "It Happened One Night" with Clark Gable and Claudette Colbert, the Jacksonville Greyhound bus station has a pretty prominent scene in it, which was a pleasant surprise the first time I watched it a few years ago.  Great movie to check out if you've never seen it--and another reason to preserve the downtown station from an historical standpoint.

Quote from: Dog Walker on May 16, 2011, 10:57:50 AM
Just talked with Debbie, Greg Anderson's executive assistant in the Riverside office.  He is out of the office this week for obvious reasons.  She says that the people in the offices of EverMortgage, their home mortgage division, will be moving downtown, but that there are no current plans to move the executive offices or branch there from the building in Brooklyn.

Thanks

To clear things up:

Everbank is not moving any employees out of the Brooklyn office.  The plans to move the southside employees are still not yet finalized.  Even if they moved everyone, it still wouldn't be enough to overtake AT&T for naming rights.

Ceree Harden's office is in the Everbank building.  I don't believe that Paul Harden's office is.  Ceree is the President of Harden & Associates, an insurance and employee benefits company.  They occupy the top floor.

Quote from: Captain Zissou on May 16, 2011, 11:26:39 AM
To clear things up:

Everbank is not moving any employees out of the Brooklyn office.  The plans to move the southside employees are still not yet finalized.  Even if they moved everyone, it still wouldn't be enough to overtake AT&T for naming rights.

Ceree Harden's office is in the Everbank building.  I don't believe that Paul Harden's office is.  Ceree is the President of Harden & Associates, an insurance and employee benefits company.  They occupy the top floor.

Thanks, Capt.  Just saw Hardin & Associates and assumed Paul.

Still good to see someone move from a Southside office park to downtown.

Who has any input about whether or not this move is connected to the Greyhound Bus terminal relocation.

Don't know about that Dog Walker! But would bet a cup of coffee at Three Layers, there will be atleast one "Consutling Study" to look at the viability of said proposal!

Quote from: stephendare on May 16, 2011, 08:33:47 AM
A few things that Larry missed about this subject.

According to Alan Mosely, the Florida Department of Transportation just delivered the kabosh on JTAs incredibly self serving plan to build another office complex adjacent to the site.  The original plan for the massive sprawling transit ranch included a jointly occupied office structure designed to hold more JTA offices, the TPO and more FDOT offices.

With downtown office occupancy at its shocking vacancy rate and short budgets being what they are, the FDOT is refusing to fund such nonsense.  Allegedly the TPO has already pulled out and found office space elsewhere.

This leaves the relocation of Amtrak and Greyhound as the only possible funding source for a regional transportation system.

Has the Tea Party infiltrated the FDOT?  ;D

Quote from: thelakelander on May 16, 2011, 10:58:20 AM
Once again, great points Stjr.  DT Jax has a ton of problems but that Greyhound station isn't one of them.  However, when they do relocate, there are a number of adaptive reuse ideas worth considering for the building.

The Kennel Club could buy it and turn it into a downtown OTB place.  ;)

What the F is up with all the people in Jacksonville that are against the city becoming a better CITY??? When you read the TU comments you just want to hit someone across the head with a blunt object...what is with Jacksonville people???

uh yeah I can't read those comments.  Very depressing indeed!   

Quote from: Wacca Pilatka on May 16, 2011, 08:38:48 AM
Was just about to say the same thing about the Greyhound station.  Convert it to something else and preserve the sign, and make it an iconic location, like the "Union Station - Travel By Train" sign in Denver et al.  As excited as I was about Everbank's downtown relocation, tearing down the station is an awful idea.

Naw man I say tear it down and build something taller.  If not maybe someplace or several places to eat.

Quote from: Captain Zissou on May 16, 2011, 11:26:39 AM
To clear things up:

Everbank is not moving any employees out of the Brooklyn office.  The plans to move the southside employees are still not yet finalized.  Even if they moved everyone, it still wouldn't be enough to overtake AT&T for naming rights.

Ceree Harden's office is in the Everbank building.  I don't believe that Paul Harden's office is.  Ceree is the President of Harden & Associates, an insurance and employee benefits company.  They occupy the top floor.

You are correct that the EverBank brooklyn employees will not be moving.  Although nothing more than test-fit space planning for preliminary pricing is all that has happened for EverBank within the AT&T building. still a long way to go for actual employee movement from the southside to downtown.

Ceree's office is on the 10th and part of the 9th floor of EB Plaza, EverBank has the 11th & 12th floors (the top two).  Paul Harden also has an office on the 9th floor, but a very small one.

I also have not heard of EverBank wanting to tear down the Greyhound station.

Quote from: thelakelander on May 16, 2011, 08:42:53 AM
I have a feeling when everyone speaks of blight, they aren't talking about the building, which happens to be in pretty good shape.  I think most are afraid of the clientele. While, the clientele doesn't bother me one bit, it's clear in these conversations that a segment of our population has a problem with our urban core's demographics.

LOL wow Lake said what I was thinking lol. I have never heard of any crime at the Greyhound stations both in Atlanta & Jacksonville lol. People just waiting on their ride or waiting for their bus to leave. They not as high class as airport flyers so maybe that makes them look scary??/

I, too, have never heard of any crime at our Greyhound station.  I recently picked up a friend from the Greyhound station and did not observe much except for a few folks were watching a documentary about the Branch Davidians in Waco, Texas.  I also noticed that the station looked like it needed some cleaning up.  But I did not really feel unsafe.

QuoteBut I did not really feel unsafe.

That is how I feel about all of downtown, I never feel unsafe, but they people who live in Ivory towers who never see downtown have a perception that wandering hoardes of human eating zombies are set to prey on them at the turn of every corner. I like downtown, its just that with 7 major restaurants in the Shops of Avondale, I never have to go downtown.

The problem with our existing bus terminal is that it has bus riders standing outside.  If they build a new bus terminal then there will still be bus riders standing outside. 

Instead of building a new place for bus riders to stand outside, why not just imagine that one of those bus riders is a younger version of either Clark Gable or Claudette Colbert?  One night it might happen.

The bus station should be in a location accessible to mass transit...so I have no issue with moving it to where Amtrak, skyway, and hopefully commuter rail will be....it would also be more convenirnt to I-95, which should be helpful to Greyhoun's schedule.

The issue here is what to do with the existing building...if anyone needs an example of an "ugly" Greyhound station made to look retro cool, look no further than Tallahassee...and all they really did was repaint the exterior. 

Alvin's Facebook today said he is committed to our transit system and would like to ride the bus to work.

Peyton goes around with a couple of body guards. Do you think Brown's entourage would drive to Brown's house every morning, park their cars in his driveway, walk with him to the bus stop, ride to the office and then cool their heels with nothing but public transportation if they wanted to go somewhere in the city? Does the bus even run near Brown's neighborhood?

It will if he is elected ;)

The mayor of NYC has a big entourage and he uses transit sometimes.

 

QuoteThe issue here is what to do with the existing building...if anyone needs an example of an "ugly" Greyhound station made to look retro cool, look no further than Tallahassee...and all they really did was repaint the exterior. 

Chic is just a paint coat away.

Got news for some of you... JTA building a "Greyhound Station" up on Adams, when the transportation center is at Bay and Lee, is anything BUT progress.  Dig the hole deeper and crawl inside boys and girls. This is insane.  As for "bus passengers standing outside...?" OMG, I went down to OIA and saw airplane passengers standing outside!! Then over at Amtrak, train passengers standing outside!! Perhaps we could move the stations to Everglades City.

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: Ocklawaha on May 17, 2011, 08:58:28 AM
Got news for some of you... JTA building a "Greyhound Station" up on Adams, when the transportation center is at Bay and Lee, is anything BUT progress. 

who said anything about where the station will be built?  I think all of that is once again open for discussion.

Quote from: tufsu1 on May 17, 2011, 09:06:40 AM

Quote from: Ocklawaha on May 17, 2011, 08:58:28 AM
Got news for some of you... JTA building a "Greyhound Station" up on Adams, when the transportation center is at Bay and Lee, is anything BUT progress. 

who said anything about where the station will be built?  I think all of that is once again open for discussion.

Besides JTA and the JRTC plan, how about "At its April meeting, the JTA board authorized Blaylock to negotiate a deal with Greyhound that would have the bus company leave its existing location on North Pearl Street for a new $5 million terminal that JTA would build between Houston and Adams streets north of the Prime Osborn. Blaylock said he hopes to conclude an agreement later this month and bring it back to the board at JTA's May 26 meeting."

Discuss it if you wish, but these dopes have it written in stone.

OCKLAWAHA

Is the Greyhound station now privately owned.

I'm glad to see things are moving. I just hope this is executed correctly. Jacksonville as a city always have good ideas and good intentions. But it is never executed correctly and ends up being a disaster.

Quote from: JeffreyS on May 17, 2011, 09:53:23 AM
Is the Greyhound station now privately owned.

Its owned by Greyhound Lines Inc, Dallas Tx.

Quote from: Ralph W on May 17, 2011, 12:43:46 AM
Peyton goes around with a couple of body guards. Do you think Brown's entourage would drive to Brown's house every morning, park their cars in his driveway, walk with him to the bus stop, ride to the office and then cool their heels with nothing but public transportation if they wanted to go somewhere in the city? Does the bus even run near Brown's neighborhood?

David Cameron beofre he became PM on Great Britan was riding his bike to work most days.  He was touting himself as been green.  Later it was found out that his aides were driving his change of clothes and his laptop and papers from his home to the Houses of Parlement every day.

Mayor Bloomberg's story is very similar.  On days that he uses transit, I think a chauffeur takes him to his subway station, and then the car goes on to City Hall.  But he does get to mingle with the riders!

Greyhound terminal move progresses

Via the bizjournals:

QuoteJacksonville Mayor John Peyton is proposing that the city give land to the Jacksonville Transportation Authority for a regional transportation center initiative that will include a Greyhound terminal.
The planned $148 million transportation center near the Prime F. Osborn Convention Center will link existing modes of public transit, such as the Skyway,city buses, and Amtrak trains along with future modes like bus rapid transit services.
The City of Jacksonville originally pledged $5 million for the development of the center, but the proposition now includes the donation of city land valued at less than $5 million to JTA, according to a news releasefrom the Mayor's Office.
Under the agreement, the bus terminal property would revert to the city if a terminal isn’t constructed in three years. Other parcels will go back to the city if not developed within 10 years.
Part of the land â€" bounded by Adams, Johnson, Houston and Stuart streets â€" would house the relocated Greyhound terminal and the new intercity bus terminal.
The Mayor's legislation will be heard for review at tonight's Jacksonville City Council meeting.

http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2011/05/24/greyhound-terminal-move-progresses.html

Here's it is from jacksonville.com:

Quote
Jacksonville City Hall might be helping to get Greyhound to the Prime Osborn Convention Center.



Outgoing  Mayor John Peyton is asking City Council to pass an ordinance giving 14 parcels of land around the Prime Osborn to the Jacksonville Transportation Authority. A new Greyhound bus terminal will be built on one of the parcels between Houston and Adams streets.

“This gives us an asset on hand,” said JTA spokeswoman Shannon Eller, “that will help us build the station.”

The Greyhound station would be the first step in constructing a regional transportation center at the Prime Osborn. Under JTA’s plan, bus service, commuter rail, retail stores, offices of the Florida Department of Transportation and a Jacksonville Sheriff’s substation would all exist.

Under terms of the agreement, JTA will have to build the terminal within three years or the land will revert back to the City. An agreement between JTA and Greyhound is expected to be approved at Thursday’s JTA board meeting.

Constructing the station is expected to cost about $5 million. The city had previously pledged $5 million in cash to get the entire transporation facility built, and the land swap will occur instead of JTA getting the cash.

Eller said the land is valued at between $3 and $4 million, so it benefits the city, and also benefits JTA because the land is more valuable than cash.

Peyton is asking City Council to approve this before he leaves office on July 1. City spokeswoman Misty Skipper said the schedule allows the ordinance to be heard by all necessary committees and voted on at the June 28 meeting.

For more information, read Wednesday's Times-Union.

http://jacksonville.com/opinion/blog/400669/larry-hannan/2011-05-24/peyton-wants-give-jta-land-around-prime-osborn-regional

Well isnt this just Dandy. And Alvin Brown is already passionate about having a new convention center, so the prime osborn will be freed up for rail to return. So once the courthouse is completed, there will be alot of shifting taking place. I am all for this as long as they get it done right.  And ole Johnny boy no so bad after. Id take peyton over Hogan any day. lol

I know has Peyton woke up or something?  He seems to be kicking butt recently, or just getting some good stuff done. 

or wait...maybe he just started following MetroJacksonville

I guess Ock is right.  If the parcel described above must be used for Greyhound, we are still developing a transportation ranch instead of an urban compact intermodal facility.  Amtrak and commuter rail terminals will be four blocks to the south.

Quote from: thelakelander on May 24, 2011, 05:15:21 PM
I guess Ock is right.  If the parcel described above must be used for Greyhound, we are still developing a transportation ranch instead of an urban compact intermodal facility.  Amtrak and commuter rail terminals will be four blocks to the south.

That's what I was thinking, but is it anyway it can be stopped and moved closer? They only have three years to build so my guess is no...

but eventually wouldn't the entire four blocks be a transportation center from the Rail Station to the Bus Terminal?

OCK,

Can you post a map. We need a visual

Quote from: thelakelander on May 24, 2011, 05:15:21 PM
I guess Ock is right.  If the parcel described above must be used for Greyhound, we are still developing a transportation ranch instead of an urban compact intermodal facility.  Amtrak and commuter rail terminals will be four blocks to the south.

we need to figure out what the 15 parcels are...from what I understand, it includes mroe than the Houston-Adams area....so JTA should be able to put the bus station along Forsyth next to the Skyway.

We just need to keep on this and make sure the re-designs make sense

Why would COJ unload a parcel of land so far from the transportation center, effectively marginalizing Greyhound?

Looking at the maps, JTA already owns the parcels the Skyway station sits on, as well as most of the long block  between Johnson, Forsyth, Houston and W. Monroe, with FDOT owning the parcels on the west end while COJ owns the entire block east of Johnson.

Visuals show the above are undeveloped or parking lots.

Somebody, if they are paying attention, could come up with a better plan to consolidate the usage a little better.

What does the city gain from JTA with this arrangement?

maybe the JTa could actually issue an RFP to create a real TOD.

Isn't this a block closer to the Transportation Center then the original plan for Greyhound?  I thought it had been penciled in north of Adams?  This block was going to be just the JTA bus terminal, now, it sounds like the JTA and Greyhound terminals will be on the same block.  Of course, there seems to be nothing preventing Greyhound from being on the JTA office building site, right next to the Skyway.

Ok here we go. Here is the initial post. Lets check out the maps.

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2008-jan-the-jacksonville-regional-transportation-center

The way this article reads is that it will be "one of the parcels of land." So lets just hope a redesign is in the works. (I pray)

http://jacksonville.com/opinion/blog/400669/larry-hannan/2011-05-24/peyton-wants-give-jta-land-around-prime-osborn-regional

If we don't throttle the designer that doesn't understand a transportation center is just that... a center of transportation, IE: a location, a place, or a station, we're in deep trouble again. Looking at that walk from a train station to a bus station (Up 2 flights of stairs, down 2 flights of stairs, and a 6-8 city block walk across busy avenues a couple of which are freeway ramps) it made me recall that here are reasons why some species eat their young. After studying the Transportation Neighborhood (it's not a center) plans I'm convinced that some poor mother or father missed an opportunity.

Never ever, ever, ever, give the car keys to someone who is under the influence, and baby don't ever give up the drivers seat locally to FDOT or JTA. FACT, if Jacksonville fell into the sea tomorrow at 3 a.m. NOBODY IN TALLAHASSEE WOULD CARE and NOBODY IN CENTRAL OR SOUTH FLORIDA WOULD EVEN READ ABOUT IT. Both FDOT and JTA are state agency's in a state dedicated to the very cutting edge of transportation, as long as you live south of an invisible line that crosses the state near Orlando... "Say they've got a few bricks left... hey we could build something in Jacksonville". You know the drill... Invest your time and tax dollars in an agency that any idiot could run - because it's just a matter of time and you'll have your idiot.

Ock ...the above Photo of the train approaching the Lee St Viaduct is just priceless ;)  Made it my new background pic

Perhaps with a city donation of land, there will come with it some way to influence the design?  The council has to vote on it, and they could put some stipulations on it, could they not?  Like, make better use of the land, make it more compact, etc.

Quote from: Ralph W on May 24, 2011, 06:35:41 PM

What does the city gain from JTA with this arrangement?

They don't put up the $5M in cash they had previously agreed to pay towards the project. They give up about $3-4M in land value instead.

Doug, even if they could do something out of this world, say, rebuild the Taj Mahal and serve it with lightning fast flying saucers, the idea of building desperate stations for each mode is WRONG. At the very least, combine the main terminal to handle Amtrak and ALL INTERCITY BUS LINES in the main terminal, then tuck the Skyway and municipal transit snug against it.


All we can do is explain the value of that lot where they want to build the "new Greyhound Station" as a prime location for Howard Johnson's, Holiday Inn, Best Western, IHOP, Denny's and Outback Steakhouse. Tax paying ventures that will naturally cluster around a properly designed terminal.

I find very little fault with the actual buildings in their plan with the exception of an unneeded "Greyhound" station (just that name implies they don't understand a unified terminal) and the railroad station with it's unsightly overhead concourses and wart like growth bulging from the side of the 1919 station.

This is a matter that needs our activism and feverish prayers. Otherwise we are going to allow them to create a completely dysfunctional transportation zoo rather then a compact aquarium.

OCKLAWAHA

The convention center needs to go (somewhere else).

Playing devil's (JTA) advocate here, I'm guessing that making the center more compact would be more expensive.  Since the land is already government owned it's the cheapest part of the project.  So if they lower the construction costs by spreading it out over 4 blocks they need less money and probably get it done more quickly.

Would it be wrong to suggest that if the city wants to give away certain land parcels that they give the land to NEW businesses, such as the hotels and supportive businesses that will want to be close to a compact transportation center?

That land that the terminal currently occupies, including the add-on of the convention center, and the section the skyway occupies, as well as the huge strip of land already owned by JTA, FDOT and COJ north of Forsyth, should be used to accommodate all the rolling stock. Parking should be moved to the perimeter of the area and trams or shuttles of some kind could be used to move the people between parking, transportation and hotels. Heaven forbid that someone would have to walk in the elements to get to a destination.

During construction, there could be provision for connecting tunnels between locations either for walking, moving walkways or a mini-subway. If the abandoned tunnels at the terminal were sufficient in the day and can be reopened, then there should be no dispute about the viability of additional tunnels between modes of transportation and other services. Check out the threads about the tunnels already under Jacksonville.

While we're in the dreaming stage, think about the subterranean shops that could be incorporated into a tunnel system. Why not increase the potential for the land rather than just stick buildings and parking lots on the surface. Some of that rolling stock could also go underground, freeing surface area for whatever.

(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/RAILROAD%20Depots%20and%20Stations/JACKSONVILLETERMINALRENDERING.jpg)(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/RAILROAD%20Depots%20and%20Stations/JACKSONVILLETERMINALREVISED.jpg)
The Terminal(s) according to JTA and FDOT      The Terminal according to Ock and Lakelander

Actually no, since we did not do anything but scoot the buildings closer together and a compact arrangement on the MJ plan, it should be considerably less money.

OCKLAWAHA

They sould include no parking for JTA employees at the new headquarters building they want.  Make them ride the skyway from the King's Ave garage ;) 

Quote from: acme54321 on May 25, 2011, 12:16:51 PM
They sould include no parking for JTA employees at the new headquarters building they want.  Make them ride the skyway from the King's Ave garage ;) 

+2!

Or from Rosa Parks if coming from the North, or from wherever.  Absolutely.

Quote from: Doctor_K on May 25, 2011, 12:56:46 PM

Quote from: acme54321 on May 25, 2011, 12:16:51 PM
They sould include no parking for JTA employees at the new headquarters building they want.  Make them ride the skyway from the King's Ave garage ;)  

+2!

Or from Rosa Parks if coming from the North, or from wherever.  Absolutely.

Like the rest of us, I'm sure even JTA's own employees would rather ride a herpetic donkey to work than hours on JTA.

Quote from: acme54321 on May 25, 2011, 12:16:51 PM
They sould include no parking for JTA employees at the new headquarters building they want.  Make them ride the skyway from the King's Ave garage ;)  

Awesome idea!

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on May 25, 2011, 01:02:08 PM

Quote from: Doctor_K on May 25, 2011, 12:56:46 PM

Quote from: acme54321 on May 25, 2011, 12:16:51 PM
They sould include no parking for JTA employees at the new headquarters building they want.  Make them ride the skyway from the King's Ave garage ;)  

+2!

Or from Rosa Parks if coming from the North, or from wherever.  Absolutely.

Like the rest of us, I'm sure even JTA's own employees would rather ride a herpetic donkey to work than hours on JTA.

Yep, give them a taste of their own medicine.

The skyway is great that is not a punishment.

We can either spend our days packing cattle cars, or spend it building the ranch. Me thinks that the former is less productive then the latter. Right now we have much bigger worries then whether of not someone rides the bus to work at JTA. While I agree wholeheartedly with the sentiment, it's not the guy behind the wheel, or the guy turning bolts, or the gal answering the phone that are to blame for what could at best be described as a mass-transit debacle at BOTH JTA and FDOT. Either agency's planning for the JRTC are stark reminders of what happens when the baby dies and the afterbirth lives.

We desperately need quality route planners, service directors, a charm school with incentives, a scout troop or two with similar community involvment, a world transit mindset, new equipment, commuter COACHES, streetcar and commuter rail. This all needs to happen yesterday. At the JACKSONVILLE TERMINAL (forget the politically correct gibberish of "JRTC.") itself we need a fast plan to pawn off the convention center to the Hyatt or another downtown hotel and start demolition of the exhibit "box" that was built for RV and Gun Shows.

We need to be pushing to maintain the current 1919 building without exterior additions, reopen the tunnel concourses, redesign the railroad yard, create a long-distance bus wash rack and lav servicing facility, install another fine restaurant, preserve both the current North-South Concourse area, as well as the newer East-West Concourse area, building an intercity bus terminal just feet from Amtrak can only spell much heavier use by both the traveling public as well as jobs with the carriers themselves.

Some of this stuff is pretty simple really. If you and I started a scheduled bus line tomorrow, with three routes, running from Ocala to Tampa, Ocala to Orlando and Ocala to Jacksonville, we could put our "stations" within another carriers facility (which is common). All things being equal, lets imagine in Tampa we connected with 2 Amtrak trains, and 8 daily intercity buses. In Orlando we connected with 4 Amtrak trains and 12 buses and in Jacksonville we connected with 12 Amtrak Trains and 42 buses... THINK... Which station is going to be our big dog? Where will our people be? Where will the money roll?

Now let's tweak the example and say in Orlando the buses and trains are about 25' feet apart (which is true), and in Tampa about 8 blocks apart, and Jacksonville 8 blocks apart before or after the "JRTC", can you visualize what that would do to our business? Can you see that now Orlando would be primary and the others secondary stations? WHY? Because in this example, even though their are far more buses and trains in Jacksonville they are too far apart to even effect each other. In this sample Tampa suffers both ways, lack of schedules and separate facilities. Scattered like chaff they have no opportunity to feed one another.


OCKLAWAHA

(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-Sf18KWN0AOU/Td2NprdAwWI/AAAAAAAAE_s/CrOY2LvBaU4/s800/JRTC-8-9-BLOCKS-OF-NOTHING-BETTER.JPG)

Uh? So where's the improvement?

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-zyAZ0ZLmPGI/Td2Npg8n42I/AAAAAAAAE_o/Hk4b1978ugs/s800/JRTC-8-9-BLOCKS-OF-NOTHING.JPG)[/center]

Ock.. in reality what do you think the chances are of the tunnels being reopened? I mean there probably is little (if any) structural  deficiency, right?

Also...with regard to the Greyhound Station.. (just asking) is the most practical idea to leave it where it is , move it closer/in with the terminal OR could , perhaps , Annie Lytle be retrofitted in part to accommodate the facility ..or is it too far out of the way, and not cost-effective ,or both?

I thionk there is no way that Greyhopund will be located behind the Prime Osborn as shoqwn in the one MJ concept...since it has to be built in the next 3 years and we'll still be operating a convention center there, that idea won't work

But here are 2 ideas that would:

1. Put Greyhound behind the skyway station (since the office building isn't being built for a while, if ever)
2. Put Greyhound on the block between Forsyth and Houston...then the JTA bus terminal into the Skyway area

Either way, you free up the block north of Houston for TOD

I'd be all for leaving it where it's at if the only other choice is Adams Street. The Convention box needs to go and the city knows it, no reason Greyhound couldn't operate out of a temporary station like the other two bus companies do until we can get them into a better location. I like the Office Building spot as being very close but then when the box comes down... A weed garden?

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: tufsu1 on May 25, 2011, 04:20:05 PM
I thionk there is no way that Greyhopund will be located behind the Prime Osborn as shoqwn in the one MJ concept...since it has to be built in the next 3 years and we'll still be operating a convention center there, that idea won't work

But here are 2 ideas that would:

1. Put Greyhound behind the skyway station (since the office building isn't being built for a while, if ever)
2. Put Greyhound on the block between Forsyth and Houston...then the JTA bus terminal into the Skyway area

Either way, you free up the block north of Houston for TOD

Something more or less like this?  I still like the compact design better what on earth would we use that huge empty space when the city wakes up and moves the Convention Center, worlds largest baggage room? Transportation Museum/streetcar barn?

Oh yeah, before some smart ass tells me my grass is greener then Thelakelander's your right, I use only Empire Zoyzia. LOL.  ;D

(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-3LI9IakA9WU/Td2fJ0RJwJI/AAAAAAAAFAA/zc9uANIyUo0/s800/JRTC-ALTERNATE-C.JPG)

OCKLAWAHA

Nice layout, Ock.

agreed

The only problem with Ocks plan is that it doesn't cover property that someone wants to sell to the City at a nice, inflated price.  (Note to self:  look up ownership of parcels under JTA's TC plan.)

The convention center needs to be moved, the old courthouse site makes sense.  Then the skyway needs to be extended to the stadium district like it was supposed to be with a station at the new convention center.   Doesn't seem that difficult.  There has to be someone with a few million lying around.

or a few hundred million

Quote from: tufsu1 on May 26, 2011, 08:26:17 AM
or a few hundred million

+1

Considering how much the lovely courthouse has cost I would think nearing 500 would be a good guess.

Quote from: acme54321 on May 26, 2011, 08:15:41 AM
The convention center needs to be moved, the old courthouse site makes sense.  Then the skyway needs to be extended to the stadium district like it was supposed to be with a station at the new convention center.   Doesn't seem that difficult.  There has to be someone with a few million lying around.

That was exactly my thoughts. A stop a the new convention center, then another stop at the sports complex

Quote from: acme54321 on May 26, 2011, 08:15:41 AM
The convention center needs to be moved, the old courthouse site makes sense.  Then the skyway needs to be extended to the stadium district like it was supposed to be with a station at the new convention center.   Doesn't seem that difficult.  There has to be someone with a few million lying around.

The convention center should just be eliminated. I know this would inconvenience all 2 of our small sized shows, a handful of PTA meetings, and a church luncheon, (literally...that's our annual convention calendar), but the truth is we aren't equipped to compete in that market for a variety of reasons, about the last of which is the building itself. The courthouse property would better serve as a private development, preferably retail.

Move current convention calendar to the Arena.  It could probably be scheduled for double duty.  Do the transportation center right.  This way our convention center still is not world class but instead of doing two thing halfway we get one right. We can still pursue a public/ private project with the convention center at a preferred site.

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on May 26, 2011, 09:56:17 AM
The convention center should just be eliminated. I know this would inconvenience all 2 of our small sized shows, a handful of PTA meetings, and a church luncheon, (literally...that's our annual convention calendar), but the truth is we aren't equipped to compete in that market for a variety of reasons, about the last of which is the building itself. The courthouse property would better serve as a private development, preferably retail.

Interesting idea.  Turn that particular area into retail, make it kind of a super-block tying in with the Landing at the strip of clubs on Bay Street.  Supercharge the area for development and activity.

Quote from: JeffreyS on May 26, 2011, 10:36:52 AM
Move current convention calendar to the Arena.  It could probably be scheduled for double duty.  Do the transportation center right.  This way our convention center still is not world class but instead of doing two thing halfway we get one right. We can still pursue a public/ private project with the convention center at a preferred site.

Not a bad idea.

Quote from: Doctor_K on May 26, 2011, 10:50:15 AM

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on May 26, 2011, 09:56:17 AM
The convention center should just be eliminated. I know this would inconvenience all 2 of our small sized shows, a handful of PTA meetings, and a church luncheon, (literally...that's our annual convention calendar), but the truth is we aren't equipped to compete in that market for a variety of reasons, about the last of which is the building itself. The courthouse property would better serve as a private development, preferably retail.

Interesting idea.  Turn that particular area into retail, make it kind of a super-block tying in with the Landing at the strip of clubs on Bay Street.  Supercharge the area for development and activity.

That's basically the convention center idea for that site....except without the convention center box.  Whatever goes on the old courthouse site needs to be mixed use.  We need to do that with or without a convention center. 

after looking at it more closely, I believe the best location for Greyhound is between Forsyth and Houston....it provides convenient access to and from I-95 NB and SB and is across the street from the Skyway....there are 2 blocks there...one could be used by Greyhound and the other by JTA for local buses at some point.

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on May 26, 2011, 09:56:17 AM

Quote from: acme54321 on May 26, 2011, 08:15:41 AM
The convention center needs to be moved, the old courthouse site makes sense.  Then the skyway needs to be extended to the stadium district like it was supposed to be with a station at the new convention center.   Doesn't seem that difficult.  There has to be someone with a few million lying around.

The convention center should just be eliminated. I know this would inconvenience all 2 of our small sized shows, a handful of PTA meetings, and a church luncheon, (literally...that's our annual convention calendar), but the truth is we aren't equipped to compete in that market for a variety of reasons, about the last of which is the building itself. The courthouse property would better serve as a private development, preferably retail.

I think killing the convention center all together is a terriable idea. The reason it does not get much activity is because of its size, and its location (no hotels nearby, etc etc.) That has been reported several times. Moving the covention center to the site of the current courthouse, adjecent to the Hyatt is the answer as that is a more active area. But to trying to a first class city with no convention center is backwards.

I'm required to attend one large work-related convention a year, usually the first or second week of August. The biggest thing they look for is the number of available hotel rooms within walking distance to the venue. Normally it is in Rosemont, Illinois which is a dedicated convention suburb of Chicago with literally dozens of hotels in the area.

No matter how large or beautiful a convention center we build, the lack of available hotel rooms is going to kill us in the convention game. With only two hotels on the Northbank (and no plans to build more) even if we build some monster on the river, I don't think we'd draw without another 3-4 hotels. And then you're just being unrealistic given the financial climate.

the # of hotel rooms needed is directly proportional to the size of conventions being booked...based on experience in other cities, the 950 room Hyatt along with 300+ at the Omni should be sufficient for a convention center of around 200,000 square feet.

Quote from: tufsu1 on May 26, 2011, 11:46:01 AM
after looking at it more closely, I believe the best location for Greyhound is between Forsyth and Houston....it provides convenient access to and from I-95 NB and SB and is across the street from the Skyway....there are 2 blocks there...one could be used by Greyhound and the other by JTA for local buses at some point.

I think the best place would be between Forsyth and Bay @ Lee. It could face the public plaza at the skyway station and have access to the highway.

Quote from: tufsu1 on May 26, 2011, 01:23:35 PM
the # of hotel rooms needed is directly proportional to the size of conventions being booked...based on experience in other cities, the 950 room Hyatt along with 300+ at the Omni should be sufficient for a convention center of around 200,000 square feet.

Almost there. I attented a convetion in Baltimore last year. 300,000 sq. ft. Absoloutely gorgeous venue. Seems to be 300,000 sq. ft.

http://www.bccenter.org/

actually Baltimore now has over 1.2 million square feet...with 300,000 sq ft. of exhibit hall space.

The original facility opened in 1979 w/ around 425,000 square feet (115,000 sq ft exhibit space)....they did an expansion called Festival Hall in the 1980's...this was torn down for the major expansion and renovation that occurred in 1997.

I think around the time there's actually have a new convention center open, there will be hotel rooms aplenty by then!

I used to work for an organization that put on conventions. Number one thing they would look for was the attractiveness of the location, and after that the facility. Jacksonville should keep working on both, for sure.

Also...eventually some sort of public transit from the airport. That would be sweet...

Quote from: danem on May 26, 2011, 02:54:29 PM
I think around the time there's actually have a new convention center open, there will be hotel rooms aplenty by then!

I used to work for an organization that put on conventions. Number one thing they would look for was the attractiveness of the location, and after that the facility. Jacksonville should keep working on both, for sure.

Also...eventually some sort of public transit from the airport. That would be sweet...

This won't be popular, but I think the convention center should be up by the airport. Lot of room for development. It's a safe, vibrant area. Plenty of hotels and new shopping center.

Quote from: BigGuy219 on May 26, 2011, 02:56:49 PM

Quote from: danem on May 26, 2011, 02:54:29 PM
I think around the time there's actually have a new convention center open, there will be hotel rooms aplenty by then!

I used to work for an organization that put on conventions. Number one thing they would look for was the attractiveness of the location, and after that the facility. Jacksonville should keep working on both, for sure.

Also...eventually some sort of public transit from the airport. That would be sweet...

This won't be popular, but I think the convention center should be up by the airport. Lot of room for development. It's a safe, vibrant area. Plenty of hotels and new shopping center.

Build it across from the RCMP. Convention attendees could walk across the street and the acres of parking and go to Wal Mart, Olive Garden or Panda Express. Oh, the possibilities.

Quote from: copperfiend on May 26, 2011, 03:02:52 PM

Quote from: BigGuy219 on May 26, 2011, 02:56:49 PM

Quote from: danem on May 26, 2011, 02:54:29 PM
I think around the time there's actually have a new convention center open, there will be hotel rooms aplenty by then!

I used to work for an organization that put on conventions. Number one thing they would look for was the attractiveness of the location, and after that the facility. Jacksonville should keep working on both, for sure.

Also...eventually some sort of public transit from the airport. That would be sweet...

This won't be popular, but I think the convention center should be up by the airport. Lot of room for development. It's a safe, vibrant area. Plenty of hotels and new shopping center.

Build it across from the RCMP. Convention attendees could walk across the street and the acres of parking and go to Wal Mart, Olive Garden or Panda Express. Oh, the possibilities.

Yes. Yes.

Oh if only I could live in the RCMP.

danem wrote:

QuoteNumber one thing they would look for was the attractiveness of the location, and after that the facility.

You guys really think that the airport area is an attractive location?  More attractive than the DT riverfront?

In my opinion we can do without a convention center.

Quote from: urbanlibertarian on May 26, 2011, 03:52:32 PM
danem wrote:

QuoteNumber one thing they would look for was the attractiveness of the location, and after that the facility.

You guys really think that the airport area is an attractive location?  More attractive than the DT riverfront?

In my opinion we can do without a convention center.

I don't think it should be up by the airport. I say put that theme park discussed in another thread by the airport!  ;D

Jax could probably do without a convention center right now, but in super long term I think it would do well to have one in the future. It's going to take a while anyways. Plan for one now and let downtown develop around where it will end up.

(I've worked a conference at a brand new location where there was nothing to do around it yet. Attendees were pissed. )

Quote from: iMarvin on May 26, 2011, 01:58:15 PM

Quote from: tufsu1 on May 26, 2011, 11:46:01 AM
after looking at it more closely, I believe the best location for Greyhound is between Forsyth and Houston....it provides convenient access to and from I-95 NB and SB and is across the street from the Skyway....there are 2 blocks there...one could be used by Greyhound and the other by JTA for local buses at some point.

I think the best place would be between Forsyth and Bay @ Lee. It could face the public plaza at the skyway station and have access to the highway.

The trouble with the JTA/FDOT plan is they basically want to build a different station for every mode, hell when the streetcar is built they'll be wanting a piece of property for that too...

We've one shot at getting this right IE: ALL TRANSPORTATION UNDER ONE ROOF! We just can't stand by with Peytons buddies push on some real estate site up on Adams Street. It's WRONG Johnny!

Since Amtrak and the Skyway are by necessity split off from the main building there is no reason why there can't be a pedestrian tunnel or tunnel extension from the Skyway to the main terminal concourse area complete with stairs, escalator and elevator at the Skyway end of it. It could ramp down from the concourse just like the ramps at the other end used to do to get to the trains.

Meanwhile all bus ticket agencies, rail ticket agencies, commuter rail, streetcar, Skyway and motor coach lines would use the same main building. This should provide the critical mass to support the wanted services such as a good restaurant, a food court, shopping etc. If they don't price it out of range, hell old Ock might just open a railroad gift shop there (why not, I grew up there!)

Let's not allow the good ole boys to ruin this for us while counting their profit.

Why would any three business men, one from Yuma AZ, one from Manhattan NY, and the other from Telluride CO for example want to go to Jacksonville so they can see:

1. An Airport
2. A Freeway Hotel
3. A Walmart
4. A Hollywood Theater
5. A Lowes
???

BUT, the guy from Yuma might be dazzled by our river and it's bridges, and real ships, water everywhere, a Riverwalk, Museum of Modern Arts, and of course The Skyway. Yuma has sand too he thought, but it's different, it's heated to 142 degrees f...IN THE SHADE, but here he could take off his shoes and walk in it.  :o 

The big city boy is stunned that he rented a car and that he can driver EVERYWHERE...even better, he can PARK EVERYWHERE, that the beach isn't lined with spent hypodermic needles and condoms, palm trees are cool, the new fountain is as good as any in the Big Apple and even in the cooler weather he didn't mind the over spray. Lastly, the day before he left he took an evening ride on the streetcar, New York City doesn't have one anymore, he ate at Park and King, he watched a fiery sunset, slowed down and took a deep breath of coffee scented air, and realized it was for the first time in his life... SOLD! :-*

The Guy from Telluride is dazzled, he too is in love with us, he doesn't need his fur coat, IT ISN'T SNOWING!, with a sense of history he loves the MOSH, the Maritime Museum, and he heard some old hippie and his Indie sidekick spin a story of an ancient Indian burial ground under the Acosta Bridge...hell I heard that he even rode the Skyway down Bay to the Stadium to watch Tebow play for his Broncos.  :D

All three will be back come next winter, and they'll have their families with them this time... THAT'S why it should be built in the core of the city. Orlando can get away with a Convention Center in B.F.E. but we can't, we don't sell mice, only a laid back, big city, urban lifestyle that many from large cities and small have never experienced. 
;D



OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: Ocklawaha on May 26, 2011, 04:04:41 PM
Orlando can get away with a Convention Center in B.F.E. but we can't, we don't sell mice, only a laid back, big city, urban lifestyle that many from large cities and small have never experienced. 
;D
[/b]


OCKLAWAHA

Actually Orlando doesn't get away with it from everyone. The American Library Association had their annual conference there a couple of years ago and many of the attendees were constantly bitching about having nothing to do within walking distance - most of them came down without cars and couldn't easily get around beyond the Convention Center/hotels area on I-Drive. The restaurants and bars in the hotels didn't do anything for most of them.

Quote from: Ocklawaha on May 26, 2011, 04:04:41 PM

Quote from: iMarvin on May 26, 2011, 01:58:15 PM

Quote from: tufsu1 on May 26, 2011, 11:46:01 AM
after looking at it more closely, I believe the best location for Greyhound is between Forsyth and Houston....it provides convenient access to and from I-95 NB and SB and is across the street from the Skyway....there are 2 blocks there...one could be used by Greyhound and the other by JTA for local buses at some point.

I think the best place would be between Forsyth and Bay @ Lee. It could face the public plaza at the skyway station and have access to the highway.

The trouble with the JTA/FDOT plan is they basically want to build a different station for every mode, hell when the streetcar is built they'll be wanting a piece of property for that too...

We've one shot at getting this right IE: ALL TRANSPORTATION UNDER ONE ROOF! We just can't stand by with Peytons buddies push on some real estate site up on Adams Street. It's WRONG Johnny!

Since Amtrak and the Skyway are by necessity split off from the main building there is no reason why there can't be a pedestrian tunnel or tunnel extension from the Skyway to the main terminal concourse area complete with stairs, escalator and elevator at the Skyway end of it. It could ramp down from the concourse just like the ramps at the other end used to do to get to the trains.

Meanwhile all bus ticket agencies, rail ticket agencies, commuter rail, streetcar, Skyway and motor coach lines would use the same main building. This should provide the critical mass to support the wanted services such as a good restaurant, a food court, shopping etc. If they don't price it out of range, hell old Ock might just open a railroad gift shop there (why not, I grew up there!)

Let's not allow the good ole boys to ruin this for us while counting their profit.




OCKLAWAHA

I like this idea. Personally, I wouldn't feel that safe walking through a tunnel. It's just a phobia of mine. I really like the main concourse idea with every service in it. That'll make it look busy.

Quote from: Ocklawaha on May 26, 2011, 04:04:41 PM

Quote from: iMarvin on May 26, 2011, 01:58:15 PM

Quote from: tufsu1 on May 26, 2011, 11:46:01 AM
after looking at it more closely, I believe the best location for Greyhound is between Forsyth and Houston....it provides convenient access to and from I-95 NB and SB and is across the street from the Skyway....there are 2 blocks there...one could be used by Greyhound and the other by JTA for local buses at some point.

I think the best place would be between Forsyth and Bay @ Lee. It could face the public plaza at the skyway station and have access to the highway.

The trouble with the JTA/FDOT plan is they basically want to build a different station for every mode, hell when the streetcar is built they'll be wanting a piece of property for that too...

We've one shot at getting this right IE: ALL TRANSPORTATION UNDER ONE ROOF! We just can't stand by with Peytons buddies push on some real estate site up on Adams Street. It's WRONG Johnny!

Since Amtrak and the Skyway are by necessity split off from the main building there is no reason why there can't be a pedestrian tunnel or tunnel extension from the Skyway to the main terminal concourse area complete with stairs, escalator and elevator at the Skyway end of it. It could ramp down from the concourse just like the ramps at the other end used to do to get to the trains.

Meanwhile all bus ticket agencies, rail ticket agencies, commuter rail, streetcar, Skyway and motor coach lines would use the same main building. This should provide the critical mass to support the wanted services such as a good restaurant, a food court, shopping etc. If they don't price it out of range, hell old Ock might just open a railroad gift shop there (why not, I grew up there!)

Let's not allow the good ole boys to ruin this for us while counting their profit.

Why would any three business men, one from Yuma AZ, one from Manhattan NY, and the other from Telluride CO for example want to go to Jacksonville so they can see:

1. An Airport
2. A Freeway Hotel
3. A Walmart
4. A Hollywood Theater
5. A Lowes
???

BUT, the guy from Yuma might be dazzled by our river and it's bridges, and real ships, water everywhere, a Riverwalk, Museum of Modern Arts, and of course The Skyway. Yuma has sand too he thought, but it's different, it's heated to 142 degrees f...IN THE SHADE, but here he could take off his shoes and walk in it.  :o 

The big city boy is stunned that he rented a car and that he can driver EVERYWHERE...even better, he can PARK EVERYWHERE, that the beach isn't lined with spent hypodermic needles and condoms, palm trees are cool, the new fountain is as good as any in the Big Apple and even in the cooler weather he didn't mind the over spray. Lastly, the day before he left he took an evening ride on the streetcar, New York City doesn't have one anymore, he ate at Park and King, he watched a fiery sunset, slowed down and took a deep breath of coffee scented air, and realized it was for the first time in his life... SOLD! :-*

The Guy from Telluride is dazzled, he too is in love with us, he doesn't need his fur coat, IT ISN'T SNOWING!, with a sense of history he loves the MOSH, the Maritime Museum, and he heard some old hippie and his Indie sidekick spin a story of an ancient Indian burial ground under the Acosta Bridge...hell I heard that he even rode the Skyway down Bay to the Stadium to watch Tebow play for his Broncos.  :D

All three will be back come next winter, and they'll have their families with them this time... THAT'S why it should be built in the core of the city. Orlando can get away with a Convention Center in B.F.E. but we can't, we don't sell mice, only a laid back, big city, urban lifestyle that many from large cities and small have never experienced. 
;D



OCKLAWAHA

I really like this idea and don't care much for this transportation campus.  We should have a transportation building or one structure (such as an international airport).

Quote from: iMarvin on May 26, 2011, 06:43:34 PM
I like this idea. Personally, I wouldn't feel that safe walking through a tunnel. It's just a phobia of mine. I really like the main concourse idea with every service in it. That'll make it look busy.

Right now there is a main concourse directly behind the 1919 station which runs from Bay Street 'doors' all the way south to the end of the building, facing north in the concourse the station itself is to your right, 'the box' of the convention center is on your left, everything in that center space lobby is actually a concourse. At one time it was more like a roofed patio as there was no walls on the south or west of said concourse, a giant many ton green wrought iron fence ran down the center of it north to south, and the big white bumpers sat numbered at the end of each track.

The other concourse runs east and west all along the north side of the convention center 'box' and almost due west of the ticket windows in the main station, this concourse saved with the 'box' mostly removed with nothing between it and the railroad tracks. That big nothing space that we call a convention center 'box' would become the main bus terminal. The east-west concourse would be a great all weather passage for people going to a intercity bus or out the west end of it to a JTA bus.

The Tunnels are still there, at the south end of the concourse at the doors they drop down a long ramp and go under EVERYTHING south of the building all the way to Mc Coy's Creek. In today's airports they would be more like 'the gates' areas, big and roomy with lots of exits. ('the gates' is no doubt a name that dates to those big fence gates at most depots.) The tunnels were NOTHING like the tiny things seen recently on a local TV show.
I would think any tunnel under Bay Street would be more of the same going underground only long enough to get under the street safely.

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: RWNeal on May 26, 2011, 05:44:38 PM

Quote from: Ocklawaha on May 26, 2011, 04:04:41 PM
Orlando can get away with a Convention Center in B.F.E. but we can't, we don't sell mice, only a laid back, big city, urban lifestyle that many from large cities and small have never experienced. 
;D
[/b]


OCKLAWAHA

Actually Orlando doesn't get away with it from everyone. The American Library Association had their annual conference there a couple of years ago and many of the attendees were constantly bitching about having nothing to do within walking distance - most of them came down without cars and couldn't easily get around beyond the Convention Center/hotels area on I-Drive. The restaurants and bars in the hotels didn't do anything for most of them.

I agree. There convention center looks amazing and there are plentyof adjacent hotels, but thats about it. Aside from a variety of fast food resturants and a hand full of tourist attractions. I-drive was a terriable place for the convention center to start with. ENTIRELY to congested.

Quote from: jcjohnpaint on May 26, 2011, 08:01:09 PM
I really like this idea and don't care much for this transportation campus.  We should have a transportation building or one structure (such as an international airport).

It amazes me that so many of our readers get the TRANSPORTATION CENTER=ONE STATION OR A ONE STOP SHOP, and JTA nor FDOT seem to have a clue. Any idiot should be able to stop buses or trains all over LaVilla, but getting them all into one place will require thought of at least a Jurassic era level.

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: Ocklawaha on May 26, 2011, 08:44:44 PM

Quote from: iMarvin on May 26, 2011, 06:43:34 PM
I like this idea. Personally, I wouldn't feel that safe walking through a tunnel. It's just a phobia of mine. I really like the main concourse idea with every service in it. That'll make it look busy.

Right now there is a main concourse directly behind the 1919 station which runs from Bay Street 'doors' all the way south to the end of the building, facing north in the concourse the station itself is to your right, 'the box' of the convention center is on your left, everything in that center space lobby is actually a concourse. At one time it was more like a roofed patio as there was no walls on the south or west of said concourse, a giant many ton green wrought iron fence ran down the center of it north to south, and the big white bumpers sat numbered at the end of each track.

The other concourse runs east and west all along the north side of the convention center 'box' and almost due west of the ticket windows in the main station, this concourse saved with the 'box' mostly removed with nothing between it and the railroad tracks. That big nothing space that we call a convention center 'box' would become the main bus terminal. The east-west concourse would be a great all weather passage for people going to a intercity bus or out the west end of it to a JTA bus.

The Tunnels are still there, at the south end of the concourse at the doors they drop down a long ramp and go under EVERYTHING south of the building all the way to Mc Coy's Creek. In today's airports they would be more like 'the gates' areas, big and roomy with lots of exits. ('the gates' is no doubt a name that dates to those big fence gates at most depots.) The tunnels were NOTHING like the tiny things seen recently on a local TV show.
I would think any tunnel under Bay Street would be more of the same going underground only long enough to get under the street safely.

OCKLAWAHA

I guess I would be okay walking through a tuneel if it was big and roomy. I really do think that the convention center should be torn down. It's just in the way.

Quote from: danem on May 26, 2011, 04:01:37 PM


I don't think it should be up by the airport. I say put that theme park discussed in another thread by the airport!  ;D


(I've worked a conference at a brand new location where there was nothing to do around it yet. Attendees were pissed. )

I agree. The river is our best asset. A convention center near downtown (either walking distance or skyway distance) might work if there were hotels etc right next to it. People do not want to travel more than walking distance from the conference center if possible.

Quote from: duvaldude08 on May 26, 2011, 08:46:21 PM
I agree. There convention center looks amazing and there are plentyof adjacent hotels, but thats about it. Aside from a variety of fast food resturants and a hand full of tourist attractions. I-drive was a terriable place for the convention center to start with. ENTIRELY to congested.

With one of the largest Convention Centers in the World, Orlando 'get's away with it' because NOBODY goes to Orlando to see Orlando. Most all of the visitors have a travel agenda that includes one or more tourist attractions which is a modern day way of engaging each of them in a game of 3-card Monte. Few of the millions of visitors could care less about transit, hotels or fast food nearby, over 90% rent automobiles/or otherwise have automobile access.

We have no real outside attractions that are more then 3-4 miles from downtown, maybe with the single exception of the beach communities including Fernandina and St. Augustine. One could rightly say we are a city desperate for attractions, while Orlando is one huge attraction looking for a city.

We're not Orlando, though if we'd of played our cards close to the chest, we 'might have been'.

OCKLAWAHA

JTA board approves agreement bringing Greyhound to Prime Osborn Convention Center

QuoteAn agreement to build a new Greyhound bus station next to the Prime Osborn Convention Center drew the unanimous support of the Jacksonville Transportation Authority board Thursday.

The agreement commits JTA and Greyhound to work together to build a station between Houston and Adams streets. They will jointly apply for $5 million in federal funding to do it.

"We've been talking about doing this for 20 years," said JTA Executive Director Michael Blaylock. "And getting Greyhound in should be a catalyst for other things."

A transportation hub

JTA wants to build a $180 million regional transportation facility at and around the Prime Osborn. It plans to bring bus service, Amtrak, commuter and high speed rail, retail stores, offices of the Florida Department of Transportation and a Jacksonville Sheriff's Office substation to the area.

"Greyhound is the first step toward getting Jacksonville something like Union Station in Washington," said JTA Chairman Michael Cavendish, "or Penn Station in New York."
Greyhound wants to leave its present location on North Pearl Street because it wants to be in a facility with multiple transportation modes.

JTA's next step is getting 14 parcels of land transferred from the city to JTA.

Outgoing Mayor John Peyton made a surprise appearance at Thursday's JTA meeting and said he was going to try to get the land transferred before he leaves office July 1.

The transfer requires City Council approval.


Read more at Jacksonville.com: http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2011-05-27/story/jta-board-approves-agreement-bringing-greyhound-prime-osborn-convention#ixzz1NYbbPeHt

Some time back I got these photos off line of what appears to be a newbie effort at modeling. The model is of the Jacksonville Terminal and whoever it was that posted these, he got several details dead on. Thus I'm posting a couple of marked up shots for those of you that don't understand what it was like. If both photos were real and taken today the photographer was standing in track 17, track 16 is in the immediate foreground, beyond these tracks the numbers counted down to track 1. 1-15 were all 'stub' tracks (dead end) that ended at the big white blocks with giant numbers on them, a couple of which are in the lobby of the Prime Osbourne.
More then that, your looking straight north-northwest from just south of the depot, today you'd be standing in the small employee gated parking area on the south end of the front parking lot. Today the 'lobby' occupies what was once the main concourse of the station. Hope this helps all of our 'sidewalk supervisors' come up with some good ideas.


OCKLAWAHA

City Council Rules Committee rejects JTA land transfer; meeting adjourns due to dispute

http://jacksonville.com/opinion/blog/400669/larry-hannan/2011-06-20/city-council-rules-committee-rejects-jta-land-transfer

Praise God! Let's go back to the drawing board PLEASE

Yay! Hopefully Mayor Brown can find a temporary location for the conventions for now, and plan for a new convention center (so when the money is available, we can proceed immediately), so JTA can use the land that the current convention center is on to make a more compact transit center. Hopefully Transform Jax and JTA come together to create a state of the art transit center.

there is a relatively simple solution to the Greyhound issue...JTA should just move the proposed terminal 1/2 block south,  bounded by Forsyth on the south and Houston on the north...the parcel is nearly identical to the one they have chosen, so any design work that has been done should require minimal modification.

Tomorrow morning on First Coast Connect host Melisa Ross will be discussing this subject with JTA brass. 9am on 89.9 fm.

Just curious - what other cities have a successful "transportation center" design like that proposed for Jax? How long have they had it? Does it provide interlocking systems? Did new development spring up around it? What problems exist?
Or is this a MJ thread that I missed? 

Is there anyway we can stop this from happening?

For the life of me, I can't figure out what this "Transportation Center" is supposed to accomplish.  OK, so we move all these disparate modes of transportation to one location.  Then what?  Because you can walk from the Greyhound station to the Amtrak station a building boom will be unleashed on downtown?  Because the JTA bus bays are next to the Skyway, everyone will want to live downtown?  Because I-95 runs next to the JRTC, retail will explode in the urban core?  I just am not following the logic of this thing.  Seems to me there are much better uses the money this would cost could be put to.

Quote from: Ocklawaha on May 26, 2011, 09:05:34 PM

We're not Orlando, though if we'd of played our cards close to the chest, we 'might have been'.

OCKLAWAHA.....

I dislike Orlando.  In a few weeks I go down there for another  trade show. Did I say I dislike Orlando? I'd rather live here.

Quote from: finehoe on June 21, 2011, 05:05:12 PM
For the life of me, I can't figure out what this "Transportation Center" is supposed to accomplish.  OK, so we move all these disparate modes of transportation to one location.  Then what?  Because you can walk from the Greyhound station to the Amtrak station a building boom will be unleashed on downtown?  Because the JTA bus bays are next to the Skyway, everyone will want to live downtown?  Because I-95 runs next to the JRTC, retail will explode in the urban core?  I just am not following the logic of this thing.  Seems to me there are much better uses the money this would cost could be put to.

This has nothing to do with making people wanna move downtown or cause a "building boom." Its basically to streamline and finally fix our mass transit mess that we have now. Having good transit helps more than just downtown, its helps the entire city.

Quote from: duvaldude08 on June 21, 2011, 05:32:43 PM
Its basically to streamline and finally fix our mass transit mess that we have now. Having good transit helps more than just downtown, its helps the entire city.

So how does it do that?  I ask this in all seriousness.  I don't see how it "fixes" much of anything.

Quote from: Jumpinjack on June 21, 2011, 04:27:32 PM
Just curious - what other cities have a successful "transportation center" design like that proposed for Jax? How long have they had it? Does it provide interlocking systems? Did new development spring up around it? What problems exist?
Or is this a MJ thread that I missed? 

I know Atlanta is trying to get a situation like this project. I think Philly may have an all in one terminal for Amtrak, greyhound & local rail.

Quote from: finehoe on June 21, 2011, 07:45:14 PM

Quote from: duvaldude08 on June 21, 2011, 05:32:43 PM
Its basically to streamline and finally fix our mass transit mess that we have now. Having good transit helps more than just downtown, its helps the entire city.

So how does it do that?  I ask this in all seriousness.  I don't see how it "fixes" much of anything.

It creates a long term transportation district, kinda like the airport, but for land vehicles. Put all the transit modes in the same place & open up the land in the city so other things can come there. Thats my take one

Quote from: Overstreet on June 21, 2011, 05:26:22 PM

Quote from: Ocklawaha on May 26, 2011, 09:05:34 PM

We're not Orlando, though if we'd of played our cards close to the chest, we 'might have been'.

OCKLAWAHA.....

I dislike Orlando.  In a few weeks I go down there for another  trade show. Did I say I dislike Orlando? I'd rather live here.

Sorry to hear that you dislike Orlando, I hate the place. They have mass transit concepts far crazier then the worst of JTA. They have bus and train stations planned like they flew out of Uncle 'Lijiah's Shotgun, and that beautiful airport? Just about the most inconvenient in the south. But because of the mouse, they get a pass on some of the dumbest things.


OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: Coolyfett on June 21, 2011, 08:34:26 PM

Quote from: Jumpinjack on June 21, 2011, 04:27:32 PM
Just curious - what other cities have a successful "transportation center" design like that proposed for Jax? How long have they had it? Does it provide interlocking systems? Did new development spring up around it? What problems exist?
Or is this a MJ thread that I missed? 

I know Atlanta is trying to get a situation like this project. I think Philly may have an all in one terminal for Amtrak, greyhound & local rail.

nope...Amtrak and commuter rail go into 30th st station (with subway across the street) in Philly...commuter rail also goes into Market East (attached to convention center), with Greyhound across the street from that station

Quote from: finehoe on June 21, 2011, 07:45:14 PM

Quote from: duvaldude08 on June 21, 2011, 05:32:43 PM
Its basically to streamline and finally fix our mass transit mess that we have now. Having good transit helps more than just downtown, its helps the entire city.

So how does it do that?  I ask this in all seriousness.  I don't see how it "fixes" much of anything.

I don't see it as a "fix" at all, but it would be one of several necessary components to achieving a functional transit system. If we have city bus lines, streetcar, and commuter rail that are not duplicating each other, then they need to connect somewhere. Intercity bus, rail and air travel should be connected in some way as well, so it only makes sense to add them to the mix if convenient and feasible. Clearly the airport can't be moved downtown, but the rest can be with little difficulty. If we had our intracity transit all hubbed in the same spot downtown, I am certain that the intercity transportation companies would be eager to join the party.

Some interesting points raised by council members in opposition of the land swap:

Quote
But Bishop said the land transfer is a bad idea.

“None of this is funded,” Bishop said, referring to money that would build Greyhound the transportation center. “It’s always been a moving target.”

Crescimbeni said he didn’t think JTA would redevelop the area. He suspects that in 10 years, the Greyhound building and JTA offices will be built and nothing else.

The legislation allows the City to take back the land if nothing is built, but Crescimbeni predicted JTA would find a way to keep the land while doing little with it.

The current plan calls for retail shops to go in along with transportation offices, and Crescimbeni said JTA shouldn’t be in charge of that.

“I’m not interested in having JTA do economic development,” he said. “Let JEDC do that, or better yet, sell the land to a private developer.”

full article: http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2011-06-23/story/hurdles-remain-giving-city-land-around-prime-osborn-jta

Quote from: Jumpinjack on June 21, 2011, 04:27:32 PM
Just curious - what other cities have a successful "transportation center" design like that proposed for Jax? How long have they had it? Does it provide interlocking systems? Did new development spring up around it? What problems exist?
Or is this a MJ thread that I missed? 

Here's a cautionary tale from Nashville. 

http://nashvillecitypaper.com/content/city-voices/commentary-clement-landport-s-investment-should-have-waited (http://nashvillecitypaper.com/content/city-voices/commentary-clement-landport-s-investment-should-have-waited)

Here's a quote from this article:

Today, most reports that describe the landport incorporate a repetitive array of words and phrases such as waste of money, ill-timed, misguided and pork barrel project. In recent years, these descriptions seem to be well justified, considering that this taxpayer-funded lot remains vacant.

But Nashville tried again, and it looks like they succeeded on their second try.

http://www.nashvillemta.org/musiccitycentral/

Compared to the Landport, Music City Central is more focused on local buses, and as the name indicates, it is more centrally located.

So what is Bishop's concern?  Just curious.  Is this more of a Peyton issue or do these council members really have a reason to be against the land swap?  I feel like I am missing something here. 

Quote from: Coolyfett on June 21, 2011, 08:34:26 PM

Quote from: Jumpinjack on June 21, 2011, 04:27:32 PM
Just curious - what other cities have a successful "transportation center" design like that proposed for Jax? How long have they had it? Does it provide interlocking systems? Did new development spring up around it? What problems exist?
Or is this a MJ thread that I missed? 

I know Atlanta is trying to get a situation like this project. I think Philly may have an all in one terminal for Amtrak, greyhound & local rail.

I am pretty sure you are right.  Harrisburg as well (minus the local rail part)

To anyone on the transportation transition team - Are you guys able to make reccomendations about things, specifically, the transportation center? If so, can you see if it's possible for a smaller, more compact transportation center?

Quote from: iMarvin on June 23, 2011, 05:12:17 PM
To anyone on the transportation transition team - Are you guys able to make reccomendations about things, specifically, the transportation center? If so, can you see if it's possible for a smaller, more compact transportation center?

TheLakeLander and Uncle Ockie are already on it, if I am correct.

-Josh

Quote from: wsansewjs on June 23, 2011, 05:17:44 PM

Quote from: iMarvin on June 23, 2011, 05:12:17 PM
To anyone on the transportation transition team - Are you guys able to make reccomendations about things, specifically, the transportation center? If so, can you see if it's possible for a smaller, more compact transportation center?

TheLakeLander and Uncle Ockie are already on it, if I am correct.

-Josh

;D Good!

Quote from: thelakelander on June 23, 2011, 03:56:22 PM
Some interesting points raised by council members in opposition of the land swap:

Quote
But Bishop said the land transfer is a bad idea.

“None of this is funded,” Bishop said, referring to money that would build Greyhound the transportation center. “It’s always been a moving target.”

Crescimbeni said he didn’t think JTA would redevelop the area. He suspects that in 10 years, the Greyhound building and JTA offices will be built and nothing else.

The legislation allows the City to take back the land if nothing is built, but Crescimbeni predicted JTA would find a way to keep the land while doing little with it.

The current plan calls for retail shops to go in along with transportation offices, and Crescimbeni said JTA shouldn’t be in charge of that.

“I’m not interested in having JTA do economic development,” he said. “Let JEDC do that, or better yet, sell the land to a private developer.”

full article: http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2011-06-23/story/hurdles-remain-giving-city-land-around-prime-osborn-jta

On the radio the other day Mike Miller said they are going to develop the transit center into a retail village.  He said they were very happy with how the development went at kings ave.  I have to say the two hotels that went into that area are very nice.  Mr. Miller said they are also going to try and develop the adjacent area to the Rosa parks station again.

From what I've heard, the hotels are struggling.  They have a nice urban design but they are quite disconnected from the skyway, the Southbank and the rest of San Marco.  They would greatly benefit from an extension of the skyway to Atlantic Blvd., imo.

Quote from: thelakelander on June 23, 2011, 06:22:58 PM
From what I've heard, the hotels are struggling.  They have a nice urban design but they are quite disconnected from the skyway, the Southbank and the rest of San Marco.  They would greatly benefit from an extension of the skyway to Atlantic Blvd., imo.

+1

And better integrating Kings Ave Station, and that hotel with it.

Quote from: thelakelander on June 23, 2011, 06:22:58 PM
From what I've heard, the hotels are struggling.  They have a nice urban design but they are quite disconnected from the skyway, the Southbank and the rest of San Marco.  They would greatly benefit from an extension of the skyway to Atlantic Blvd., imo.

I have heard this (that the hotels are struggling) from a completely reliable source.  We drive by every day and the parking lot is always empty.  Completely agree that a skyway extension would help.

Because from I-95 even a local can't really figure out how to get to them!

Given that it will include a new interchange at Atlantic, the I-95 project might help the hotels.

The I-95 project would not be completed for something like a decade from now and that is now in doubt after Scott's decision to raid the tranportation fund.  Those hotels will probably close up shop well before the I-95/Atlantic project becomes reality.

Oh well. 

What have other hotels done to liven up their surroundings?  I'm thinking South Beach.

I agree. Those Hotels are cut off. I wouldnt doubt the are struggling a bit. They were only open for a year and then the whole ordeal with the colts fan flooding the hotel, they had to shut down for pretty much the entire football season. (almost a whole year) And im sure that was a big financial blow to them, on top of repairs.

^^Fortunately their insurance policies covered that damage and other losses.  Also the concept is not struggling because they are breaking ground on an even larger version here in Atlanta this year, but there is no denything that those hotels are pretty isolated.  I'm a native and even I have to pause and think how to get to the hotels, and that just isn't good for business.

Quote from: simms3 on June 24, 2011, 12:15:26 PM
^^Fortunately their insurance policies covered that damage and other losses.  Also the concept is not struggling because they are breaking ground on an even larger version here in Atlanta this year, but there is no denything that those hotels are pretty isolated.  I'm a native and even I have to pause and think how to get to the hotels, and that just isn't good for business.

Yeah I forgot about the insurance part. But Im sure missing out on all that money during the football season put the squeeze on them. I actually noticed coming into to work that we have NO SIGNS coming into DT advising that there is a Hyatt, Omni, Wyndum, double tree, hitlon, or extended stay in the DT area. Thats a huge issue.

Quote from: duvaldude08 on June 24, 2011, 12:18:55 PM
Yeah I forgot about the insurance part. But Im sure missing out on all that money during the football season put the squeeze on them. I actually noticed coming into to work that we have NO SIGNS coming into DT advising that there is a Hyatt, Omni, Wyndum, double tree, hitlon, or extended stay in the DT area. Thats a huge issue.

Do you mean billboards or the blue roadsigns that list the amenities off upcoming exits?  I think the lack of blue signs is actually pretty common along the downtown area portions of interstates.  I know there are no blue signs for the exits in downtown Richmond, meaning none of its hotels and restaurants are listed.

Quote from: Wacca Pilatka on June 24, 2011, 12:24:06 PM

Quote from: duvaldude08 on June 24, 2011, 12:18:55 PM
Yeah I forgot about the insurance part. But Im sure missing out on all that money during the football season put the squeeze on them. I actually noticed coming into to work that we have NO SIGNS coming into DT advising that there is a Hyatt, Omni, Wyndum, double tree, hitlon, or extended stay in the DT area. Thats a huge issue.

Do you mean billboards or the blue roadsigns that list the amenities off upcoming exits?  I think the lack of blue signs is actually pretty common along the downtown area portions of interstates.  I know there are no blue signs for the exits in downtown Richmond, meaning none of its hotels and restaurants are listed.

Yeah the blue signs! It would be nice if we had atleast two leading into DT. And billboards would be nice, but thats solely up to the hotels to market themselves that way.

I wonder why there are no blue signs, not just in Jax but seemingly everywhere?  Because the more I think about downtown areas I've been through frequently, I can't remember seeing the blue signs on any interstate as it passes through a downtown area - not on 81 in Syracuse, not on 83 in Harrisburg, not on 95 in Baltimore or Richmond, not on 35 in Oklahoma City or Austin, not on 30 in Little Rock, not on 40 in Memphis or Nashville...

Maybe it's a concern for excessive visual "pollution" in a congested, sign-heavy area?  Or maybe concern for confusing drivers who might have to make multiple turns in an unfamiliar city rather than having straight-shot access to the hotels, or if the best exit to reach a particular hotel were a different exit northbound than southbound.

Quote from: tufsu1 on June 21, 2011, 11:26:16 PM

Quote from: Coolyfett on June 21, 2011, 08:34:26 PM

Quote from: Jumpinjack on June 21, 2011, 04:27:32 PM
Just curious - what other cities have a successful "transportation center" design like that proposed for Jax? How long have they had it? Does it provide interlocking systems? Did new development spring up around it? What problems exist?
Or is this a MJ thread that I missed? 

I know Atlanta is trying to get a situation like this project. I think Philly may have an all in one terminal for Amtrak, greyhound & local rail.

nope...Amtrak and commuter rail go into 30th st station (with subway across the street) in Philly...commuter rail also goes into Market East (attached to convention center), with Greyhound across the street from that station

Here is just a small sampling of "Transportation" or "Intermodal Centers" around the country. Ours will not be the first or the last, but as you can see from the photos it will be the only one that packs every single mode into a different building, strung all the hell over LaVilla. In other words... We have it planned wrong and apparently neither understand the concept, or have any intention of learning it... Progress on the "JRTC?" Bull shit! More like regress as we plan a "Greyhound Station" on Adams Street and a serpentine walkway that will consume 7 city blocks between train and bus. JRTC is misnamed, as big as the Vatican City, and will achieve anything but what the cross-eyed visionaries had in mind.

As a transportation committee member I think you should have this and the rest of the plans that have been shown on MJ packaged and presented to our new mayor.  Why else did he need a transition team but to cement his understanding of what is needed in JAX and not be saddled with the same old garbage and short- sighted thinking of the dinosaurs of the past?

There has been more clear thinking and vision developed and presented via MJ than what we have seen with ALL the various Authorities, including the city administration.

So THERE!!

It's a full court press on every committee we all serve on. Oh and those plans? Already done.


OCKLAWAHA

Jacksonville council approves land deal with JTA

QuoteThe Jacksonville Transportation Authority was given enough city land Tuesday night to build a Greyhound station near the Prime Osborn Convention Center. But it will have to wait for a new mayor and City Council to approve the rest of the land it wants for a regional transportation hub.

In its final meeting with the current membership, the council unanimously agreed Tuesday night to give four city-owned parcels to JTA. The agency will have three years to build the station or the land will revert back to the city.

“We want to get the Greyhound station built as quickly as possible,” JTA Executive Director Michael Blaylock said. “But we plan to come back soon and seek the rest of the land.”

The Greyhound station will be built on three parcels between Houston and Adams streets. A fourth parcel on Houston Street be for a retention pond and parking, JTA spokeswoman Shannon Eller said.

JTA and Greyhound have an agreement to jointly seek $5 million from the federal government needed to build the station. It will include extra space in case other commercial bus companies want to come in.

Greyhound will move from its present location on North Pearl Street. Economic developers want Greyhound out of downtown so more businesses can be attracted to the area.

The regional transportation center would include JTA, the Florida Department of Transportation, a Florida Highway Patrol substation, retail stores, Amtrak and possibly commuter and high-speed rail.

Councilman Bill Bishop had refused to allow a vote on the entire land transfer in his Transportation, Energy and Utilities Committee last week. Tuesday night, he agreed to the Greyhound station transfer but said the council hadn’t reviewed regional transportation center hard enough.

Several council members wanted all 14 parcels approved.

Ronnie Fussell said the project should have stayed intact, but he was glad to see the Greyhound portion move forward. The project has been discussed for years, and there was no reason to delay, he said.

Denise Lee said opposed breaking up the project.

“I intend to support Greyhound,” Lee said. “But I don’t want the public to think there was a list of unanswered questions, because this was vetted.”

The Mayor’s office agreed to hand over the 14 parcels if the JTA waived a $5 million commitment the city had made to the regional transportation facility. The city is still on the hook for that $5 million until the other 10 land parcels are transferred, attorneys for the city said Tuesday.

Blaylock said JTA would ask Mayor-elect Alvin Brown to support transferring the other 10 parcels. Brown, who takes office Friday, hasn’t taken a position on the land transfer but has said he supports the regional transportation center.

Read more at: http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2011-06-28/story/jacksonville-council-approves-land-deal-jta

yeah it seems like that parcel guarantees a way too sprawled out transportation center. 

Between Houston and Adams Streets?  I didn't think the plans called for a footprint larger than the courthouse?  That is like 4 blocks from the Prime Osborn.  It's like we used to build public buildings with legos and then all of a sudden decided to start using MEGABloks.

I know what will happen.  They will build Greyhound on this parcel in the middle of nothing.  Never get the money or land to build the middle section and we will be stuck with an amtrak station and greyhound station five blocks apart and not connected to anything else.  Someone needs to get the Mayor to stop this sprawled out plan and look at the MJ plan.

Can't they work something out to put the Greyhound station between Forsyth and Houston?  Or does this deal lock them into the remote site?

I looked at the map a while back. JTA already owns so much land around the Terminal that they could have built everything as promoted here on MJ without sucking up more land from the city (from us).

As the transportation center would have grown, those parcels of land would have had an accelerated value for commercial development that would have far outstripped the $5 million cash the city pledged to JTA.

Those planners must think they have the acreage similar to the south point and deerwood buildouts to insist upon such a far flung plan. I guess they want to put a super sized parking lot right in the middle to handle all the cars that will flock to use the new facilities. I thought the idea was to get people to USE the public transportation to get from many point A's to many point B's.  I can see the signs now that say Park and Ride. Just drive downtown, park in the mega lot and hop the skyway, the bus, the trolley to your work place - 2 blocks away. Phooey!

Quote from: jcjohnpaint on May 24, 2011, 05:07:20 PM
I know has Peyton woke up or something?  He seems to be kicking butt recently, or just getting some good stuff done. 

He should have started 60 days after he got in office instead of 60 days before leaving office.

Quote from: Seraphs on June 28, 2011, 11:42:58 PM

Quote from: jcjohnpaint on May 24, 2011, 05:07:20 PM
I know has Peyton woke up or something?  He seems to be kicking butt recently, or just getting some good stuff done. 

He should have started 60 days after he got in office instead of 60 days before leaving office.

Exactly. He just wanted something to put on his resume to say he did SOMETHING for downtown.

Does somebody have this mapped out...what is the nearby North - South street?  And where will parking be in relation to the bus station? 

The Greyhound station will be on the far north end of the transportation ranch.  Considering the DT Transition Team is recommending that a new convention center be built next door to the Hyatt, we have an expensive disaster in the making, due to years of uncoordination between our public entities.

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/744225864_WsJrk-M.jpg)

Now this retention pond stuff is news to me and not reflected on JRTC's sprawling plantation.  I really hope its not on any block NOT immediately adjacent to I-95 or east of Stuart Street.  If so, that will go down as another wasted permanent block of dead activity between the new bus terminal and the rest of downtown.

Sure, it would be nice to have a higher level of coordination.  Coordination, alone would save this city tons of money and get several iced public projects under way sooner, in a manner that benefits more than just one specific entity.

Lake, thanks for the great map. 

The sprawl really eats up potential TOD / economic development and city revenue. 

And I would think the fixed rail has the most TOD potential and, of course, that happens to be the most buried item inside of the sprawl.   

Why is it just a Greyhound station? Why isn't it like the airport where all of the airlines use it.  Maybe we could attract that luxury bus company there if it was a Bus Terminal.

From my understanding, multiple bus lines will be able to use the facility.

I looked at a map that measures distances to gauge the JTA transportation center layout:

One thing I note: 

A bird flying from the JTA mapped Amtrak area gets to Park Street WEST of Leila in about 160 yards.         

Is the proximity of Brooklyn relevant to arguing that the transportation center should be unified and compacted at Union Station? 

The pedestrian walkway, as designed now, which runs only a portion of the proposed transportation area, looks to be, interestingly, about 169 yards in length. 

 
   

Adams St does allow for direct access to the interstate in both directions for the Greyhound buses. So from that statepoint it would be advantageous for them to be located where its being proposed. But that location does cause other issues as have been documented here.

It would help for travelers to at least have the ability to move from one facility to the other completely undercover. Nobody should have to haul their bags three blocks in the heat/rain.

Although, I'm not sure how many people we're going to see getting off an Amtrak train and then getting on a Greyhound bus or vice versa. I think going from one long-haul service (Amtrak or Greyhound) to a local haul service (bus, Skyway, taxi) would be more likely.

I really don't see too much wrong with the whole proposal.  I know everyone is saying that this is prime land for TOD developement or whatever, but this land has not been developed yet. I know the city has owned it for a while and no one has bmade any proposals for it for years and years.

I am familiar with these empty parcels as I usually park there for Jags games. It really isn't that long of a walk, 160 yards. Some people walk that to get into Walmart. I beleive the elevated walkway connecting everything will have covering. Maybe they could even make it a moving walkway like at Universal Studios or airports.

Quote from: Dapperdan on June 29, 2011, 10:59:47 AM
I really don't see too much wrong with the whole proposal.  I know everyone is saying that this is prime land for TOD developement or whatever, but this land has not been developed yet. I know the city has owned it for a while and no one has bmade any proposals for it for years and years.

I am familiar with these empty parcels as I usually park there for Jags games. It really isn't that long of a walk, 160 yards. Some people walk that to get into Walmart. I beleive the elevated walkway connecting everything will have covering. Maybe they could even make it a moving walkway like at Universal Studios or airports.

I agree Dan. But the overall design needs to be redone. I think they should go ahead and build the Greyhound station, however they need to redesign the other phases and make sure its more compact and intergrated with the greyhound station. Otherwise ist not a transportation center, It will be four transporation buildings next door to each other.

The largest problem I see (other than combining the local bus/BRT blocks into one) is in the form of underutilization of urban land (Dapperdan, infill TOD won't come until you have transit) and spending upwards of $180 million (go compact and that cost should drop) on something that is designed the way it is to work around something (the convention center) that will be moving in a few years.  From a fiscal conservative approach, there are a number of things that could be improved upon that would save JTA money, enhance DT's vibrancy and add to the city's tax base.  However, for whatever reason, proper coordination between different public entities in this city has been difficult to achieve, limiting holistic urban planning in the process. 

Everyone is complaining about the Everbank deal, but the problems the site mismanagement here is going to cause down there road will be definite. 

Quote from: Dog Walker on June 29, 2011, 09:21:54 AM
Why is it just a Greyhound station? Why isn't it like the airport where all of the airlines use it.  Maybe we could attract that luxury bus company there if it was a Bus Terminal.

Because the senior planner at JTA just doesn't  !#$$##$T^%^!! get it.  The same guy that designed and rammed the Skyway down our throats is now killing any chance we have for a transportation center. Instead he will try and scare, misinform, speak to, undermine, and any other method to keep that plan exacty as he first drew it. 

It IS susposed to be like an airport with all carriers in the same house, but only in Jacksonville will we try and rename a collection of buildings "a" center...  IT ISN'T A TRANSPORTATION CENTER, its a collection of stations scattered across a neighborhood that will be disfunctional as soon as the Amtrak portion opens and transfer passengers realize they've got 7 blocks to walk (and two different flights of stairs) to traverse just to get to the "other station." 

Even if they moved it closer, it's still no cigar if it's not in house with Amtrak, like every other transportation center in the land.

It wouldn't set back the enviromental study to move it to the main station building and temporarily looping the buses around the west side parking lot. That way bus and rail passengers could use the same grand old waiting room. Without it, there will not be enough critical mass to support restaurants, gift shops, etc...

"Great magazine you've got there mate, may I ask where you got it?"

"Sure, 7 F--king blocks up the street at a Greyhound station..."


OCKLAWAHA

The JTA Transportation Center needs to be halted and redesigned because it was originally designed as if the Convention Center would stay put.  As I believe Lake said, with the convention center moving, there are more options that would use less land and cost less.  For example, the JTA offices that are proposed should be put inside the Prime Osborn along with the retail spaces.  We don't want the Prime Osborn to go to waste so it needs to be repurposed.  Now is the time for our new mayor to get committees and organizations talking with each other.  All of the great ideas need to be coordinated.

Well, we don't know that the new convention center will actually pan out. And it's years away at any rate. Conceivably they want to hold onto the Prime Osborne until the new center is in place, if that even happens.

To be honest, we'll probably see a convention center built before the JRTC is fully built.  Its cheaper and it appears like its going to be a higher priority for the incoming administration.

Quote from: stephendare on June 29, 2011, 04:41:25 PM
The Convention Center is currently being budgeted at 150 million

That is pretty cheap compared to the courthouse (LOL). Is the rendering in the Daily Record definite, or has a final decision not been made yet? I read there were three.

Uh? How about someone scan in the photo or article  from the daily record or perhaps send us a link to it for those of us in the boondocks.


OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: stephendare on June 29, 2011, 04:41:25 PM
The Convention Center is currently being budgeted at 150 million

The transportation center is $180 million.

^ This really shows the lack of efficiency in planning and design.  I would just think that a convention center from the ground up should cost more than a possible transportation center that could be designed around an enormous space (Prime Osborn) that already exists and was originally constructed to be a rail station.  Couldn't we build a cheaper transportation center, purchase 100s of bus shelters for the city, and extend the skyway all for $180 million?

Ok, worst case scenario and JTA builds exactly what they want they way they want it and the convention center is moved. 

Which building will end up being the point of no return?  How difficult would it be to move the rail tracks north?

Pretty impossible.

The TU is reporting that Mayor Brown is opposed at this time to giving the additional 9 blocks to JTA for the transit center.

Says the TU: Brown spokesman Abel Harding said there were too many questions over how much it would cost to build and maintain the transportation center, as well as uncertainty over how the structure would fit in with Brown's plan to revitalize the downtown.

Harding said the mayor fears the transportation center could turn into a situation like the new Duval County courthouse, which was originally expected to cost $190 million and is now at $350 million.

If JTA can come up with a detailed plan for how the facility would work, Brown is willing to consider supporting it. But he needs a lot more information, Harding said.

More at the source: http://jacksonville.com/opinion/blog/400669/larry-hannan/2011-07-12/mayor-alvin-brown-opposes-transferring-more-land-jta

QuoteSays the TU: Brown spokesman Abel Harding said

That alone makes me more confident than anything that happened under the last administration.

More reason for redesign.  I like what sounds to be a holistic approach to DT revitalization coming out of Alvin Brown's mouth:

QuoteSays the TU: Brown spokesman Abel Harding said there were too many questions over how much it would cost to build and maintain the transportation center, as well as uncertainty over how the structure would fit in with Brown's plan to revitalize the downtown.

It will be interesting to see what JTA comes up with.  Whatever it is, I think it is imperative that the plan be urban and pedestrian scale, as well as illustrate how potential TOD on surrounding properties would integrate with it.

i dont care what they do with it. I just want Amtrak back Downtown. that doesnt require any land swap. I have never understood why Jacksonville will not follow the model set forth by Denver and the redevelopment of their historic Union Station.

That's a pretty good model to follow.  Such a model would also put Jax in better position to land things like TIGER grants when they come along.  Now is a great time to reconsider what's on the table.

exactly. they had their act together. Buy in from everyone. right now we do not have JTA, COJ, FDOT, TPO, etc on the same page.

I honestly want to KILL JTA as an agency. Completely ensured they would never exist again, then start with a new agency that can really FOCUS ON public transportation, not some friggin' highway, bridges, even sidewalk projects, like New York City's Metro.

-Josh

Quote from: Jimmy on July 12, 2011, 01:55:14 PM
The TU is reporting that Mayor Brown is opposed at this time to giving the additional 9 blocks to JTA for the transit center.

Says the TU: Brown spokesman Abel Harding said there were too many questions over how much it would cost to build and maintain the transportation center, as well as uncertainty over how the structure would fit in with Brown's plan to revitalize the downtown.

Harding said the mayor fears the transportation center could turn into a situation like the new Duval County courthouse, which was originally expected to cost $190 million and is now at $350 million.

If JTA can come up with a detailed plan for how the facility would work, Brown is willing to consider supporting it. But he needs a lot more information, Harding said.

More at the source: http://jacksonville.com/opinion/blog/400669/larry-hannan/2011-07-12/mayor-alvin-brown-opposes-transferring-more-land-jta

I agree and a real good start!

I'll be more confident about Brown's vision for downtown once we see how he does balancing the budget.

Quote from: Tacachale on July 12, 2011, 02:53:34 PM
I'll be more confident about Brown's vision for downtown once we see how he does balancing the budget.

I am sure anybody can do better than Peyton. Peyton way of balancing the budget was spend spend spend, oh and lets keep spending until were in the hole. Im confident he will do fine all the way around.

Well, for one thing, Mayor Brown has made good on his promise to seek public--private partnerships to carry out his agenda.

Oh, it could get so much worse than Peyton. Remember, we almost got Hogan.

I want Brown to succeed. But the budget is daunting, and he has to have it submitted by the 15th. I'm going to remain cautiously optimistic until then, with my sentiment taking a strong turn towards either caution or optimism depending on the result.

That will be a good gauge regarding his plans for the transport center and downtown in general.

Quote from: Tacachale on July 12, 2011, 04:06:23 PM
Oh, it could get so much worse than Peyton. Remember, we almost got Hogan.

I want Brown to succeed. But the budget is daunting, and he has to have it submitted by the 15th. I'm going to remain cautiously optimistic until then, with my sentiment taking a strong turn towards either caution or optimism depending on the result.

Well there are steep cuts that have to be made, and he is not Whodini.  So I will be grateful with whatever he can accomplish for THIS budget year. I dont think by any means he can get us out of a 60 million dollar hole in one swoop, but I think he will over time. We shall see...

The sad thing about his term and his budget is that he was elected on the premise of no new taxes.  The easiest way out of the hole is by increasing the millage rate.  Most wouldn't even know the difference with a few % change due to the property values plummeting. 

If they increased the tax base gradually, 1/2% - 1 1/2% per year, once things turned around and property values started rising again, it means everything around is getting better and we still wouldn't notice the extra tax burden.

Hell, after 4 years we might even have a surplus (god forbid).

Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on July 12, 2011, 04:12:15 PM
The sad thing about his term and his budget is that he was elected on the premise of no new taxes.  The easiest way out of the hole is by increasing the millage rate.  Most wouldn't even know the difference with a few % change due to the property values plummeting. 

If they increased the tax base gradually, 1/2% - 1 1/2% per year, once things turned around and property values started rising again, it means everything around is getting better and we still wouldn't notice the extra tax burden.

Hell, after 4 years we might even have a surplus (god forbid).

Well we(citizens) has screamed for him not to raise taxes so........

Duvaldude, he has exactly three days to come up with a balanced budget, so he doesn't have a lot of time.

Non-Redneck, I agree entirely on the tax revenues. But he, and we the electorate, made our own bed with that one.

Quote from: Tacachale on July 12, 2011, 04:22:53 PM
Duvaldude, he has exactly three days to come up with a balanced budget, so he doesn't have a lot of time.

Non-Redneck, I agree entirely on the tax revenues. But he, and we the electorate, made our own bed with that one.

Yeah I know, but hey. If its not what we want, cant cry over spilled milk. We sure didnt when Peyton screwed us for eight years. But We'll see what happens. I hope to hear good news. :)

But back to the subject at hand. That is definately good news. I am happy he recongnizes that a spwarling 4 block 180 million dollar transportation system is just stupid. It can be done more efficently with less money. Hopefully this forces them to go back to the drawing board.

It would appears that Mayor Brown is actually listening to the fine folks on his transportation transition team.

Take a bow youse guys!

Quote from: Captain Zissou on July 12, 2011, 01:59:54 PM

QuoteSays the TU: Brown spokesman Abel Harding said

That alone makes me more confident than anything that happened under the last administration.

Lol, hear hear! I don't know how executive offices generally work, but I'm sure (or hope) even as the communications director he will have some sort of advisory role on policy. Which makes me sleep a little easier.

Semi-Intoxicated Rant:

I'm not sure what the huge holdup is regarding the transit terminal.  I feel like I should pull a Rosa Parks every morning and guide 15-20 people off the bus at Jefferson Station (Skyway) every morning, and show them that if the WS2 would just turn around here - we kill 35 minutes off the headways - thats turns a 50 minute headway into a 15 minute headway without changing a thing other than drop off points.  We increase the skyway at a minimun 200 riders per day from Rosa Park to Jefferson.  With one turnaround point, I just increased the Skyway by (200 riders per day * 300 days per year) 60,000 riders per year and eliminated (30 min per route * 18 trips per day * 300 days per year) 2,700 duplicate hours per year in service.  Am I a genius? No.  Do I do this daily?  Yes.  How many times per week do I exit the WS2 at the Jefferson Station and beat the bus to Rosa Park by at least 5 - 10 minutes?  Every day, monday through friday.

I know this is only one bus route, but imagine if the terminal was 3 blocks closer.  They would have thousands of people doing this daily in the same spot - not just JTA people, but also Amtrack and Greyhound - all using the same terminal.  Where would I buy my morning coffee and paper and breakfast sandwich?  Not at Blanding and Wilson anymore, but me and a few hundred other people would be buying the neccesities (sic if needed) at the terminal while waiting on the train, skyway. trolley, downtown loop bus service.  Either way, there's now several thousand people walking by your storefront on a daily basis.  2,000 people daily * 3.40 (very low estimate of an average check) = $6,800 gross revenue per day * 365 = $2,482,000 .  Ask Gate or Daily's or Hess if they would lower themselves to that average without the cost of having to fill/maintain gas tanks?  There emphatic answer is Fuck Yes!   Where do I sign?

Mayor Brown, if you're looking for a Private/Public Partnership, limit the transportation center to the Prime Osbourne and the Skyway terminal, force JTA to update their money routes and invite a convenience store to do the upgrades.  You'll end up with a nice compact station, at least one bus route that works the way public transportation should, shuts up the naysayers about the people mover (you just doubled the ridership) and generates a tax revenue from a city property from a business that is making a profit and happy to be there.

Sounds like a win, win, win, win, win.

Here is a map of the parcels that JTA wants.

(http://jacksonville.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/story_slideshow_thumb/JTAparcels071311.gif)

full story: http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2011-07-13/story/mayor-alvin-brown-against-transferring-more-land-jta-without-detailed

So, for the first time ever, someone finally demanded that JTA present a plan that actually works before they get to play with more taxpayer assets. JTA must be shell-shocked, I bet they're pissed and don't have a clue what to do.

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on July 13, 2011, 11:44:05 AM
So, for the first time ever, someone finally demanded that JTA present a plan that actually works before they get to play with more taxpayer assets. JTA must be shell-shocked, I bet they're pissed and don't have a clue what to do.

I'd call it the second time as 30 years ago I told them the Skyway would fail and that we would be far ahead if we built Light-Rail. CHIRP... CHIRP...

You can see how far that went back then, while the newspaper scorched them (Jacksonville Journal) and a few of our Councilmen supported the streetcar concept (Eric Smith, Jim Wells, Andy Johnson) Jake refused to even open his door and hear from any of us. The entire archives of the Jacksonville Traction Company and all of the early City Coach and Motor Transit Company files, photos, uniforms, badges, etc. were hauled to a northside landfill in the dead of night and lost forever. Smith and Wells went ballistic and we shut down the dump and ordered a bulldozer to dig where it was thought to be... About 5 hours in the blistering sun, dead dog guts, and God knows what else we were nowhere. The historic trolley barns "got in the way of the new Acosta Bridge" and thus they had to be torn down... only to find out that they weren't in the way after all and so we built a Skyway Maintenance Facility on the same ground (as-if we couldn't have recycled the barns built in the 1800's). Lastly a city hit squad went out and found the 4 remaining streetcar bodies that we had located and reduced them to sawdust and razor blades "because if the federal government knew we were preserving streetcars they wouldn't give us the free money for the flying automated albatross."  Kind of makes one think that if they were giving our city an enema...where would they stick the hose?  

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on July 13, 2011, 11:44:05 AM
So, for the first time ever, someone finally demanded that JTA present a plan that actually works before they get to play with more taxpayer assets. JTA must be shell-shocked, I bet they're pissed and don't have a clue what to do.

RIGHT! Mr. Brown is racking up cool points with me already. Its time for the city to stop making should bad decisions and allowing JTA to jerk us around. Because if we tell them no, then they will be forced to redo the plan altogether and do it right this time. I love it.

THREAD SPLIT - bus-skyway discussion now on 'TO HELL ON A JTA COACH - DT-LOOP' thread.

OCK

Well Well Well looks like JTA is scarmlbing. I pulled this quote from Jacksonville.com today:

"The center is expected to cost $180 million, but JTA is updating its plans and that dollar amount might soon be revised. "

The better revise it or this thing wont get built thats for sure.....