How does everyone feel about converting existing roads into toll to pay for more?
QuoteGeorgia plans to toll 29 miles of I-75 and I-575; Jacksonville next?
Submitted by Larry Hannan on May 10, 2011 - 10:21am
Georgia is leeping into the public-private partnership game with a $1 billion project that will add toll lanes on interstates 575 and 75 in Cobb and Cherokee counties.
The project bears certain similarities to Florida's plan to build and toll the First Coast Outer Beltway in Jacksonville. That project fell apart when no private company was willing to partner with the state.
Florida is now looking into the possibility of tolling the existing 15 miles of Branan Field Road from Interstate 10 to Blanding Boulevard, and using the toll money down the line to construct the entire 46.5 mile road to Interstate 95 in St. Johns County.
Of course, traffic in the Atlanta area is significantly greater than traffic in Jacksonville. But Public-Private partnerships, which most government officials have annoyingly started calling P3's, are the new buzzword for governments that lack the revenue to do major transit projects.
So successful tolling of I-75 and I-595 in Georgia will make Florida more eager to move ahead with more (ughhh) P3's.
http://jacksonville.com/opinion/blog/400669/larry-hannan/2011-05-10/georgia-plans-toll-29-miles-i-75-and-i-595-jacksonville
I feel like this guy needs to grab a dictionary and maybe take an 8th grade grammar refresher......
Other than that, I don't have a problem with tolling roads, I just would like the revenue to go to something other than more roads.
Hate the idea, especially when you bring in private partners.
New roads and projects, let's have a look.
Existing roads, absolutely not.
Yet another way to further destroy the middle class.
Aren't we technically already paying for these roads anyway?
Quote from: KenFSU on May 10, 2011, 11:13:36 AM
Hate the idea, especially when you bring in private partners.
New roads and projects, let's have a look.
Existing roads, absolutely not.
Yet another way to further destroy the middle class.
Private partners would probably assume most of the burden of the required infrastructure - toll booths, salaries, etc.. while the state would probably pay for the road widenings, signage, etc...
I am sure many will find it shocking that roads cost and continue to cost massive amounts of money. It could be bad for the roads though we know Republicans hate transit that directly contribute to their own operating costs like rail. They like purely taxpayers supported roads.
Repeal the 6 cents gas tax for road maintenance/upgrades and then start tolling roads.
The 6 cents gas tax was added to help fund road consctruction/maintenance, yet all the money now goes to the skyway and bus system.
The 0.5 cents sales tax in Duval county was created to end the toll booths on roads inside Duval County.
There is a slippery slope if tolls are added again. Will the 0.5 cents sales tax be repealled?
And what should be done about the 6 cents gas tax that JTA seems to waste on poor routes and such?
Branan Field Chaffee could be exempt from any of these issues, it will be a state road, under the FDOT for maintenance and control.
Traffic in Jacksonville is nowhere near bad enough to justify tolling roads. What has been done at Brannan Field is done, and traffic is not bad enough for drivers in Jacksonville to use that road on their way to work in the morning Clay County-Downtown commute if it is tolled. I say leave it free, sadly allow developers to come in a century from now when housing comes back, build communities, pay for all infrastructure improvements, and pay hefty impact fees. Those fees will generate more revenue to pay for that road than tolling it would.
Cities like Atlanta and DC have no more room to widen highways further and arterial roads do not have sufficient capacity to relieve highway congestion. I-75, 575, and I-85 in Cobb and Gwinnett Counties are 20 lane parking lots at least 6 hours a day. It has become necessary (HOV in Gwinnett has now been converted to HOT).
Jacksonville should focus on adding more traffic to generate more visibility for businesses on our core roads. Focus on pulling that traffic in, and then focus on providing alternative forms of transportation on the same corridors. Create nodes like DC and boulevards like LA.
Quote
The 6 cents gas tax was added to help fund road consctruction/maintenance, yet all the money now goes to the skyway and bus system
Please show where you got this info.
Quote from: Captain Zissou on May 10, 2011, 01:25:57 PM
Quote
The 6 cents gas tax was added to help fund road consctruction/maintenance, yet all the money now goes to the skyway and bus system
Please show where you got this info.
Here'e a recent article from the FTU:
http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2011-05-06/story/jta-faces-challenge-renewing-6-cent-gas-tax
Quote
The tax generates about $25 million to $30 million a year. It was created in 1986 by the City Council for needed road improvements in the city but limited to 10 years only.
Read more:
http://library.municode.com/HTML/12174/level2/TITXXIITA_CH799LOOPGATA.html
http://myfloridalegal.com/ago.nsf/Opinions/A0D8659C3DB444BF852562A70050C86A
QuoteSection 336.025, F.S., authorizes county governments to impose a local option gas tax on every gallon of motor fuel and special fuel sold in the county and taxed under Parts I or II, Ch. 206, F.S. Pursuant to the statute, municipalities must use moneys received pursuant to s. 336.025, F.S., "only for transportation expenditures."[1]
A definition of "transportation expenditures" is contained in the statute. Section 336.025(7), F.S., provides that:
"For the purposes of this section, the term 'transportation expenditures' means expenditures by the local government from local or state shared revenue sources, excluding expenditures of bond proceeds, for the following programs:
(a) Public transportation operations and maintenance.
(b) Roadway and right-of-way maintenance and equipment.
(c) Roadway and right-of-way drainage.
(d) Streetlighting.
(e) Traffic signs, traffic engineering, signalization, and pavement markings.
(f) Bridge maintenance and operation.
(g) Debt service and current expenditures for transportation capital projects in the foregoing program areas, including construction or reconstruction of roads."
So what's up.....in the past plenty of public funding for infrastructure,now we must resort to outside sources.
Could there be something larger,a diminishing growth margin dynamic?
We are already tolling existing roads in Florida...started with the HOT lanes on I95 in Miami...and now on I-595 in Broward.
The key is that the tolls are only placed on NEW lanes
That's also the general plan for SR 23 in Clay County...they are currently designing the frontage roads which will be free...the expressway, if ever built in the middle of the ROW, will be tolled....Tampa has a similar case w/ the southern portion of the Veterans Expwy.
Quote from: tufsu1 on May 10, 2011, 06:43:22 PM
We are already tolling existing roads in Florida...started with the HOT lanes on I95 in Miami...and now on I-595 in Broward.
The key is that the tolls are only placed on NEW lanes
That's also the general plan for SR 21 in Clay County...they are currently designing the frontage roads which will be free...the expressway, if ever built in the middle of the ROW, will be tolled....Tampa has a similar case w/ the southern portion of the Veterans Expwy.
You mean SR23, SR21 is Blanding Blvd.
oops...sorry...corrected
Np, just didnt want people to freak that Blanding would soon have tolls...
:D
Place the tolls at all entry and egress points to Duval county. Charge tolls to workers commuting from Clay, Nassau and Baker counties...
I say place the trolls at the border or maybe the I-talians.
Tolls are dumb!
Why do all you guys have a problem with people working in one county and commuting to another? That's how all major cities work. Without those people coming to Duval to work, Jacksonville wouldn't have a metro area. It would just be Duval!
Quote from: BridgeTroll on May 11, 2011, 08:03:29 AM
Place the tolls at all entry and egress points to Duval county. Charge tolls to workers commuting from Clay, Nassau and Baker counties...
How about improving the Duval Schools that drove the young families out of Duval County?
Quote from: iMarvin on May 11, 2011, 08:44:12 AM
Why do all you guys have a problem with people working in one county and commuting to another? That's how all major cities work. Without those people coming to Duval to work, Jacksonville wouldn't have a metro area. It would just be Duval!
I dont have a problem except for using the roads and other infrastructure while letting Duval residents pay for them. A small toll for commuters from other counties would only be fair...
They bring their money with them to Jax every day.
No doubt... a $.50 toll should not be a big deal.
Maybe but we should look hard before we do it. How is that toll for parking downtown working out? I still think a better plan is to make Jax a more desirable place to live, work, play and send your kids to school is a good move too.
Thats a good idea too. Hell... make the toll a nickel. If we had a nickel for every commuter crossing county lines... :)
Quote from: BridgeTroll on May 11, 2011, 08:03:29 AM
Place the tolls at all entry and egress points to Duval county. Charge tolls to workers commuting from Clay, Nassau and Baker counties...
I think the net result would be a shift of jobs from Duval to those counties....over time, jobs tend to follow residents anyway...we don't need to make accelerate the pattern
How much does it cost to cross the Hudson in NYC? There's nothing wrong with living in one county and working in another. The problem arises when one county's residents are subsidizing the other county's lifestyle. Having Duval County residents partially finance projects like 9B and Chaffee/Outer Beltway to help send people and jobs out of Duval isn't the solution. With that said, I'm not opposed to a "pay to play" fee (like a toll at the county line), assuming its fair to all. I also would not have a problem with Duval not investing in our working against projects that ultimately weaken its tax base either. The money saved by not addressing roads like Blanding, the Outer Beltway, San Jose, A1A, 9B, etc. could be spent in other fashions that give us a higher ROI.
Quote from: BridgeTroll on May 11, 2011, 09:39:55 AM
Quote from: iMarvin on May 11, 2011, 08:44:12 AM
Why do all you guys have a problem with people working in one county and commuting to another? That's how all major cities work. Without those people coming to Duval to work, Jacksonville wouldn't have a metro area. It would just be Duval!
I dont have a problem except for using the roads and other infrastructure while letting Duval residents pay for them. A small toll for commuters from other counties would only be fair...
Every time I fill my gas up in Duval, I pay for road improvements.
Quote from: thelakelander on May 11, 2011, 10:12:00 AM
How much does it cost to cross the Hudson in NYC? There's nothing wrong with living in one county and working in another. The problem arises when one county's residents are subsidizing the other county's lifestyle. Having Duval County residents partially finance projects like 9B and Chaffee/Outer Beltway to help send people and jobs out of Duval isn't the solution. With that said, I'm not opposed to a "pay to play" fee (like a toll at the county line), assuming its fair to all. I also would not have a problem with Duval not investing in our working against projects that ultimately weaken its tax base either. The money saved by not addressing roads like Blanding, the Outer Beltway, San Jose, A1A, 9B, etc. could be spent in other fashions that give us a higher ROI.
Did/ Is Duval county spend/ Spending money on the Blanding-295 exit, Collins road exit and 9B? That is just crazy literally sending people away.
For every 50 cents you toll someone to enter Duval County, you lose 50 cents in revenue elsewhere. That daily lunch might get skipped to help cover the weekly tolls.
Everyone that commutes to Jax pays for stuff in Jax with taxes. If Clay/St Johns/Nassau/Baker residents didn't commute to Jax, the Southside of Jax would have less businesses, less tax revenue, etc...
BTW, I-295 straddles Clay/Duval counties. You going to pay a toll driving 295 around the city? Southbound you are technically in Clay County for a few.
Quote from: stephendare on May 11, 2011, 10:22:46 AM
Quote from: jandar on May 11, 2011, 10:19:37 AM
Quote from: BridgeTroll on May 11, 2011, 09:39:55 AM
Quote from: iMarvin on May 11, 2011, 08:44:12 AM
Why do all you guys have a problem with people working in one county and commuting to another? That's how all major cities work. Without those people coming to Duval to work, Jacksonville wouldn't have a metro area. It would just be Duval!
I dont have a problem except for using the roads and other infrastructure while letting Duval residents pay for them. A small toll for commuters from other counties would only be fair...
Every time I fill my gas up in Duval, I pay for road improvements.
but not in proportion to the amount of expense that it takes to maintain those roads for you.
But there are state roads in Duval County with which my taxes maintain as well. You going to toll me to drive on a state road? SR21 Blanding is a state road. Duval does not own it, and only partially maintains it, the rest comes from the FDOT. US17 is a state/Federal Road, Duval does not own nor maintain it.
Argument lost for entering Duval from Clay.
I'll have to go back and check, but I believe the I-295 Collins/Blanding work is being funded by FDOT. However, throught the BJP, we've sunk hundreds of millions into improving and extending other sections of Collins to feed into this project. By the same token, 9B is a part of the BJP as well. Yes, its literally economic suicide to continue to finance projects that create economic opportunities in other counties at the expense of your own. With that said, I'm not making a claim that adjacent counties should not seek or don't deserve economic growth of their own. I'm just saying the things we publicly finance should be done to improve and not subtract, from the community.
Quote from: jandar on May 11, 2011, 10:30:35 AM
But there are state roads in Duval County with which my taxes maintain as well. You going to toll me to drive on a state road? SR21 Blanding is a state road. Duval does not own it, and only partially maintains it, the rest comes from the FDOT. US17 is a state/Federal Road, Duval does not own nor maintain it.
Argument lost for entering Duval from Clay.
I just wouldn't spend local money on improving these facilities or associated local projects that are designed to feed into them. Instead I'd let the state fund them 100%. Since the state doesn't have much cash, such an option would cut down excessive road construction pretty quick. People would have to accept a higher level of gridlock and congestion. Locally, I'd focus on changing the zoning in Duval to allow for higher densities and mixes of uses and support that decision by providing better transit to the areas north of the county line. Hopefully, such an example would encourage Clay to follow suit and extend such concepts across the border.
Forgot to add, even 103rd st is maintained by the FDOT. No taxes from Duval County pay for it. Its state funded (from taxes from everyone).
Im sure I could find a ton of roads that are maintained by the FDOT inside Duval County.
I'm sure you can. However, is it in Duval's best interest to widen an Old Middleburg Road or Collins to make it easier to get from Oakleaf to points north? How does such an expensive decision benefit the residential neighborhoods that have already been established in these areas? These are the types of projects I'd slow down on investing in on a local level. That money saved could be used for a variety of other needs locally.
Quote from: jandar on May 11, 2011, 10:30:35 AM
Quote from: stephendare on May 11, 2011, 10:22:46 AM
Quote from: jandar on May 11, 2011, 10:19:37 AM
Quote from: BridgeTroll on May 11, 2011, 09:39:55 AM
Quote from: iMarvin on May 11, 2011, 08:44:12 AM
Why do all you guys have a problem with people working in one county and commuting to another? That's how all major cities work. Without those people coming to Duval to work, Jacksonville wouldn't have a metro area. It would just be Duval!
I dont have a problem except for using the roads and other infrastructure while letting Duval residents pay for them. A small toll for commuters from other counties would only be fair...
Every time I fill my gas up in Duval, I pay for road improvements.
but not in proportion to the amount of expense that it takes to maintain those roads for you.
But there are state roads in Duval County with which my taxes maintain as well. You going to toll me to drive on a state road? SR21 Blanding is a state road. Duval does not own it, and only partially maintains it, the rest comes from the FDOT. US17 is a state/Federal Road, Duval does not own nor maintain it.
Argument lost for entering Duval from Clay.
My argument has already been argued by others. When people come to Duval to work, they spend money here. It's not like they just work here. Most of the people buy lunch and gas here. So to make them have to pay more money to come into Duval to work doesn't make sense to me. That's all I'm saying.
Quote from: iMarvin on May 11, 2011, 11:15:34 AM
My argument has already been argued by others. When people come to Duval to work, they spend money here. It's not like they just work here. Most of the people buy lunch and gas here. So to make them have to pay more money to come into Duval to work doesn't make sense to me. That's all I'm saying.
Agree with you entirely. Any purchase made in Duval County is helping to pay for its resources. When someone works in Duval, lives in Clay, and buys lunch during the week, who's tax base is helped? Duval. Clay county would lose on that potential revenue.
This whole work in my county but don't live in it BS is just that, BS.
Take schools for example. My wife's school has to kick kids out of it that belong in Duval County. Why? The school system gets local funding from residents, and only gets money from the state for the kids that are living in county. The state doesn't give the clay county school any money for a duval county resident who cheats the system.
Roads are not like that, gas taxes are to pay for the upkeep and construction. However, this is not the case. So yes, even if I buy gas in Orange Park, or even Orlando, some of my cost is in state tax that is then redistrubted back to the counties, all, not just a single county.
Quote from: jandar on May 11, 2011, 11:54:40 AM
Quote from: iMarvin on May 11, 2011, 11:15:34 AM
My argument has already been argued by others. When people come to Duval to work, they spend money here. It's not like they just work here. Most of the people buy lunch and gas here. So to make them have to pay more money to come into Duval to work doesn't make sense to me. That's all I'm saying.
Agree with you entirely. Any purchase made in Duval County is helping to pay for its resources. When someone works in Duval, lives in Clay, and buys lunch during the week, who's tax base is helped? Duval. Clay county would lose on that potential revenue.
This whole work in my county but don't live in it BS is just that, BS.
Take schools for example. My wife's school has to kick kids out of it that belong in Duval County. Why? The school system gets local funding from residents, and only gets money from the state for the kids that are living in county. The state doesn't give the clay county school any money for a duval county resident who cheats the system.
Roads are not like that, gas taxes are to pay for the upkeep and construction. However, this is not the case. So yes, even if I buy gas in Orange Park, or even Orlando, some of my cost is in state tax that is then redistrubted back to the counties, all, not just a single county.
Exactly.
Quote from: JeffreyS on May 11, 2011, 10:26:44 AM
Quote from: thelakelander on May 11, 2011, 10:12:00 AM
How much does it cost to cross the Hudson in NYC? There's nothing wrong with living in one county and working in another. The problem arises when one county's residents are subsidizing the other county's lifestyle. Having Duval County residents partially finance projects like 9B and Chaffee/Outer Beltway to help send people and jobs out of Duval isn't the solution. With that said, I'm not opposed to a "pay to play" fee (like a toll at the county line), assuming its fair to all. I also would not have a problem with Duval not investing in our working against projects that ultimately weaken its tax base either. The money saved by not addressing roads like Blanding, the Outer Beltway, San Jose, A1A, 9B, etc. could be spent in other fashions that give us a higher ROI.
Did/ Is Duval county spend/ Spending money on the Blanding-295 exit, Collins road exit and 9B? That is just crazy literally sending people away.
in theory no...it is funded by FDOT
In practice yes....because it comes from state and Federal tax dollars..which are paid by folks in Duval as well
Everyone should know by now that gas taxes don't cover the cost for roads and neither do buying an occasional sandwich, soup or salad at lunch. For example, a significant chunk of the costs for Jax's recent road projects came from the BJP and we still can't afford to construct and maintain them. So the question becomes, how do we properly resolve this issue? I'll agree that outright tolling at the county line may not be the best solution, but neither is remaining status quo.
How about taking back the funding from JTA? They seem to be asking for more in taxes, yet cannot explain how they spent what they got in the first place half of the time.
jandar, that goes without saying by my standards! How about we just put toll booths on our side of the county line and be done with it? Charge extra for trucks and force them to use rail instead!
This is the perfect example of why a regional transportation approach is needed in Northeast Florida. If you only think about things in your own tiny little world and not the bigger picture then everyone will suffer. With representation from all of the counties - planning, road construction, transit and funding become a regional mission - not just a county-by-county one.
exnewsman.......I got no problem with that! Problem that I have seen is who is the lead dog ? We don't need another "Consultant Report" generated, but JTA is not the lead of anything! Those bovines can not even manage their own house and they do not need to be overseeing another agency! Someone has to be directing and all of the issue's I have seen discussed make the surrounding area's playing second fiddle. Don't know about you, but Federal governance is not what we need! There was a thread here that had some discussion regarding the situation.
exnewsman, I have no problem with a regional approach. That's something we should have been doing decades ago.
lake, I concur! This is something that should have been done long long ago! Either way, JTA does not need to be flying lead on a "Regional Transportation Agency"!
Quote from: exnewsman on May 11, 2011, 04:16:52 PM
This is the perfect example of why a regional transportation approach is needed in Northeast Florida. If you only think about things in your own tiny little world and not the bigger picture then everyone will suffer. With representation from all of the counties - planning, road construction, transit and funding become a regional mission - not just a county-by-county one.
that is what the TPO tries to do...
But the downside is you have to play nice with all the counties...in the end, what is good for Clay or St. Johns may not be for Duval.
Conversly, most everything that is good for Duval is also good foo the region...this is the message that must be conveyed!
Quote from: thelakelander on May 11, 2011, 10:32:17 AM
I'll have to go back and check, but I believe the I-295 Collins/Blanding work is being funded by FDOT. However, throught the BJP, we've sunk hundreds of millions into improving and extending other sections of Collins to feed into this project. By the same token, 9B is a part of the BJP as well. Yes, its literally economic suicide to continue to finance projects that create economic opportunities in other counties at the expense of your own. With that said, I'm not making a claim that adjacent counties should not seek or don't deserve economic growth of their own. I'm just saying the things we publicly finance should be done to improve and not subtract, from the community.
The Clay county commute has 'grown' absurd, a proven detractor due largely to the sacrifice of then existing major arterial highway facilty to,in the words of a Clay Grand Jury report,"inept' local government planning.We have 'grown' in a manner dreamed of.Sought and fought after.And always the promotions,the images of promised future "alleviation".Whether a proposed parallel to Blanding Blvd,or Brannon Chaffee (which of course is not parallel,but who knows or really cares!),Wells Road extension,many more too vast to list here and who really cares??!!..... "Regional" mantra.
I recall an era when the MPO southern boundary at Knight Box road was all that would be tolerated,or acknowledged as Clay was in the midst of the 'better place' image promotion.(That was about the time I served on the State Road 21 Citizens Planning Group,Dick Post county Plan Director-engaged with ardent boosters,abdication of responsibility,options.As a title insurance company Abstractor I was keenly capable of welding political events with official record book and page image,and even though I received 'friendly' warnings from county staff I knew it would be years before any of it would really matter to most,or any)
Well within this unfolding narrative is inter county home grown employment,'smart growth', diverse tax base and 'reduced' or modified ADT.
Clay County Brannan Chaffee & Lake Asbury Sector Plan proceedings produced a tidal wave of local employment growth center aspirations, overweighted realtive to viable future needs,much of which were filled with Cecil Field and a host of other vesting-the State DCA therefore produced Comments and Objections balancing this element.
Clay Sectors were a mirror of St.Johns.
Clay County growth empire family name Kopolousous headed up the State DOT last year-Florida Transportation Commission (our own Marty Lanahan!) late 2010 meeting minutes spoke primarily of the First Coast Beltway and....classic.....a 40 foot drop in the water table under I-4.
I believe such massive adjoining county growth aspiration and acommodation,now only barely emergent,driven in part by a militant anti Duval theme,has been and will be a factor in stiffling Downtown Jacksonville.
The "regional" narrative is telling,now moving in to the highly anticipated plot wherby pesky State oversight wanes,decades old boosterism flourishes with little traditional checks and balance,Regional = BIG
This brought to you in part by key Non grou.....er,excuse me,Civic Council players,some of which have completed many elements of future growth vesting,leaving Downtown on the plate.And we will pander to this element.
Among many interesting discussions and stage making at the Alvin Brown Memorial Park Rally Tommy Hazouri told me there would be a battle over any proposed Duval County toll facility.