The Jacksonville Sheriff's Office: bravely keeping Riverside safe from its own artsy residents. Cameras have been installed in 5 Points, monitored by JSO to bust writers, painters, and dangerous maniacs armed with wheatpaste. Don't put a sticker on anything, they want to put you in jail, for such ridiculously high bail I refuse to post the figure I was quoted. It can't POSSIBLY be correct.
God forbid they should endanger the cops by putting those cameras in areas where people get shot daily...
I heard about this last night through a local artist. This is absolutely insane. I realize some people's thoughts on "street art" are different than mosts but really?! Like you said, why aren't we putting cameras up in places where violence is a reaccurence? My question is how are cameras going to bust these "perpatrators" anyways? Are they going to start putting "WANTED" POSTERS up around Riverside with the alleged artist's face on it?!
QuoteAre they going to start putting "WANTED" POSTERS up around Riverside with the alleged artist's face on it?!
I can think of a few MJers who would look good on a "WANTED" poster. :P
Awww! The cops are the party poopers! I really enjoy artists' contribution and message to the street as long as they can clean it up or restore back to its former condition, therefore I have no problem with street art.
If you are going apply your own art to a public area and leave it, then it is like taking a dump near a lamp post and let it rot for every bystander to smell and see it. That's called littering.
Jacksonville Sheriff Office are full of idiots for spreading their resources thin and focusing on this part of the overall crimes which they should work on others which are much more important.
-Josh
I dunno, call me a grouch, but we aren't talking about a bunch of little keith harings running around enlightening us with their talents. Most of the graffiti here is just tagging, which for those unfamiliar with the term is a bunch of d-bags running around spray-painting their name on everyone's private property. Graffiti art is one thing, but for the most part we aren't talking about that. The tagging needs to stop.
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on April 12, 2011, 09:05:58 AM
I dunno, call me a grouch, but we aren't talking about a bunch of little keith harings running around enlightening us with their talents. Most of the graffiti here is just tagging, which for those unfamiliar with the term is a bunch of d-bags running around spray-painting their name on everyone's private property. Graffiti art is one thing, but for the most part we aren't talking about that. The tagging needs to stop.
Agree to an extent. There is a difference between graffiti art and those who "tag" and think it's art. For instance, the stuff at Underbelly is what I would consider art. Even some tagging, such as the late great OILER is eye pleasing to me at least but these guys going around with a sharpie marking up every utility box they walk past is pretty dumb. Whether some realize it or not, there is talent behind actual tagging. I personally have no problem with wheat pasting either, as long as it doesn't get out of hand. But I see how some would disagree. There are a few other threads on here about "street art" and the city's view on it. All in all, I think the city is taking it a bit too far. There are more important things to worry about. Most of the people contributing to the street art, graffiti, tagging, whatever you want to call it, are Jacksonvillians who for the most part stay out of trouble.
Why don't they put the cameras at traffic lights to combat against bad driving? Oh that's right, bad drivers are Jacksonville's best friends. Stupid redneck floridiots! I say we organize every street artist and simultaneously go into the streets in protest. I mean jam up traffic and everything. But unfortunately, no one truly cares.
I agree criminalizing it is not necessarily the solution, at least not by itself.
I think there should be designated areas for graffiti art, and the real problem is that if some of the property owners want to allow murals or exterior artwork, then code enforcement needs to back off and let it be. They're usually up your ass about it, like what happened with the Preservation S.O.S. hearts in Springfield, during the boarding/sealing project they were boarding up vacant properties so Code Enforcement wouldn't tear them down for being open and vacant, and they had painted little red hearts on the boards so instead COJ cited them for "Graffiti." How asinine.
But with all that said, the tagging is what has everyone in Riverside upset and it really needs to stop. I'm sorry, but in my view the circumstances under which a bunch of douchebags can run around spray painting their name all over everything in sight and then have that behavior somehow get considered "art" are pretty darn limited.
The taggers are really spoiling the whole pie for everyone else.
Quote from: urbaknight on April 13, 2011, 02:14:21 PM
I say we organize every street artist and simultaneously go into the streets in protest. I mean jam up traffic and everything. But unfortunately, no one truly cares.
I could think of a few local names that would actually consider coming out to something. We'd need to make it a fairly civil and organized gathering. Maybe even have a graffiti / street art event in 5-Points where artist can come out and do some live painting, sell some work, maybe cheese and crackers (kidding on that part) etc etc.
I'd like to know where these cameras are? Has anyone actually seen one yet?
Taggers had better be very careful about "coming out". If JSO can connect names and faces on the street to the faces seen on the cameras, there will be arrests.
If it's art, how come they don't do it on their own houses?
It is almost impossible and is very expensive to get spray paint off of brick or masonry. Why not chalk on the sidewalk like some of the European street artists (real artists!) do?
Like this:
(http://www.european-street-painting.com/images/street%20art.jpg)
This all reminds me of that neighborhood watch in Hot Fuzz where they go after the living statue guy.
THE GREATER GOOD.
Quote from: Dog Walker on April 13, 2011, 04:22:33 PM
Taggers had better be very careful about "coming out". If JSO can connect names and faces on the street to the faces seen on the cameras, there will be arrests.
If it's art, how come they don't do it on their own houses?
It is almost impossible and is very expensive to get spray paint off of brick or masonry. Why not chalk on the sidewalk like some of the European street artists (real artists!) do?
I see where you're coming from but I wasn't necessarily speaking about "taggers" but more or less those that do real street art. Those who take boring walls and turn them into something amazing. Like the side of BG or Fans & Stoves or Shanty Town. True they have done all these with permission but it would at least bring recognition to the positive possibilities of street art in our city.
Real artists buy their own canvas. They don't write their street names on my buildings and city traffic signs. That isn't art. The intent of that isn't artistic expression, but something else.
It all reminds me strongly of my male dog lifting his leg on every post and tree in the neighborhood. That's not art either. Just his way of saying, "Hey, I've been here. It's me."
The graffiti we get in Riverside is the same thing. At least the rain washes away dog pee.
Not only were all those done by people with real artistic talent, but those people were PAID to do them.
How about I scratch my name in the paint on the hood of your car? Is that art? Is it right? Would you mind it? What if it was a happy face?
So? Can I come "practice" on your storefront or car? Twice a week after you've repaired the damage?
Making art with a spray can is absolutely legitimate. Set up a piece of plywood in your backyard and have a ball. Get good; get famous. I am in awe of the work on the side of Fans and Stoves. Every time I look at it I see something new and see more meaning in it.
Stephen, you've seen what we have around here and it isn't about art. Stop trying to deflect the real discussion. It is about vandalism and property rights, not about art. It's about people trying to run their businesses undisturbed by having to constantly clean up their property at great expense.
There are really great people trying to start innovative and imaginative businesses in Riverside. This is the place that they need to be. Many of them are struggling along and cannot afford the clean-up cost and the Code Enforcement fines. There are vacant storefronts that cannot be rented because prospective businesses are frightened off by what the perceive as "gang" activity or that their customers will be scared off by the aura of lawlessness that extensive tagging and graffiti creates.
Agreed.
Art is art. Some douchebag spray-painting his name all over your stuff is not art in my book.
Nobody minds actual art. It's the tagging that's the problem.
Sorry if I stepped on your toes. I personally hate confrontation. I said I agreed that taking a sharpie to things isn't art. Dare I bring up "rearl artist" such as Banksy, Ces53 and Shepard Fairey (if your not familiar with these name PLEASE search them), I understand your frustration being a business owner but I think it's partially blurred your vision of what art really is, in the end it really makes no difference whether it's on plywood, cardboard, brick, canvas or paper. I'm also not saying it's right (legally). I understand that it's a HUGE inconvenience to you, I really do. That's why I mentioned creating an alternative for some of these artist. Regardless I still think it's a bit over the top to put up cameras. Done...
No confrontation, 904, just a difference of viewpoint. You're cool with me and my toes. Didn't mean to sound angry, just definite.
I agree with you that art comes in many, many forms and styles. I happen to be a collector and have literally run out of walls to hang things on. Having absolutely no artistic talent of my own I deeply admire those who do and try to support them.
Without getting all geeked out over graffitti, art, Banksy and all, it should be pointed out that -IF- there are cameras in 5 Points, it was at the behest of the business owners. The damage taggers have done in the past is not limited to having to paint over scribbles. Heating/cooling units and piping were being broken by those folks trying to climb on the roofs. If you haven't had to repair those things, then be advised you are dealing with a big $ bill... too big for a small business to regularly cover.
For that matter, I can't any evidence that cameras were put up for that purpose... or and history that anyone has ever been arrested for a sticker...
Gainesville has the 34th St Wall. It's legit and sanctioned by the community and the city. Everyone loves the wall. All of the art, tagging, and otherwise graffiti is put on the wall for all to see. Other cities do the same thing. Let's figure out a place in Five Points or Jacksonville that's visible and available for this sort of thing. Over time it would be a source of community pride like it is in Gainesville. I grew up in Gainesville and there was a widespread feeling that giving folks the ability to express themselves was a benefit to the community.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/34th_Street_Wall (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/34th_Street_Wall)
I saw the angel downtown on the old 618 building... I love street art, that being said there definitely is a line when you defacing some old abandoned building and someones beautifully restored brickwork. Definitely would be to everyone's advantage to create a graffiti wall like the one mentioned by NaldoAveKnight.
The whole camera thing really seems like a terribly misguided use of resources. These actions make is seem like JSO has more of an interest in protecting walls in 5 points then lives of black youths in other areas.
We went downtown yesterday to find a few. Found 2.
QuoteWe created a free wall behind the merchants district, I actually bought a couple of thousand dollars in spray paints and let the kids practice until their hearts content in exchange for policing the rest of the taggers to keep the tags off our store fronts.
But the store fronts were tagged too as were surrounding properties and the vandals carrying your paint up onto the roofs of the merchants stores damaged the roofs with nails and vandalized A/C units deliberately. Art isn't the motivation, vandalism and the adrenalin rush of doing something "bad" is/was.
After the arrest of the members of the crew that called itself the Bastard Son's of Vandalism (! note: not Bastard Sons of Art!), one of the members returned to his home in Miami after serving his time in jail and wrote on a graffiti blog, "Do NOT write in Jacksonville. The cops will f### you!"
StephenDare, what happened to that free space in 5 Points anyway? I used to go there and shoot photos on occasion, but it got painted clean some years back... any idea why, or who was behind it? Seemed like a positive thing to me.
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Yeah, a couple of new merchants opened up shops and their feeling was that Five Points was headed to a more upscale and largely more gay aesthetic, so they painted over the wall to reflect that.
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I'm not shooting the messenger, but that is so ugly to read & think it's true (although I have no doubt it is).
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on April 13, 2011, 02:20:11 PM
I agree criminalizing it is not necessarily the solution, at least not by itself.
I think there should be designated areas for graffiti art, and the real problem is that if some of the property owners want to allow murals or exterior artwork, then code enforcement needs to back off and let it be. They're usually up your ass about it, like what happened with the Preservation S.O.S. hearts in Springfield, during the boarding/sealing project they were boarding up vacant properties so Code Enforcement wouldn't tear them down for being open and vacant, and they had painted little red hearts on the boards so instead COJ cited them for "Graffiti." How asinine...
This; absolutely this. You manage to give street artists a conduit to express themselves without damaging others' property. You also separate the artists from those that are tagging for the sake vandalism (whom I assume will still seek out the rush of graffiti on private properoty).
Quote from: stephendare on June 08, 2015, 11:35:21 AM
Quote from: Andy on June 08, 2015, 11:25:32 AM
StephenDare, what happened to that free space in 5 Points anyway? I used to go there and shoot photos on occasion, but it got painted clean some years back... any idea why, or who was behind it? Seemed like a positive thing to me.
Yeah, a couple of new merchants opened up shops and their feeling was that Five Points was headed to a more upscale and largely more gay aesthetic, so they painted over the wall to reflect that.
Nope, Long time merchants such as Edge City and Fans & Stoves and Riverside Liquors got fed up with having to re-paint the back of their stores and repair their roofs. The 5 Points Merchants Assn carefully got permission letters from all property owners and business owners, raised donations from their membership, had mis-tint paint donated by Brinton's Paint, equipment at cost from Sherman-Williams then had a huge volunteer day and painted out all of the graffiti in one day. They were joined by volunteers from RAP and JSO officers and Councilman Love. It was a real community effort, not the narrow-minded, selfish effort you are trying to portray. Oh, for full disclosure, some of the volunteers and business owners were gay.
How do I know the inside details? I helped organize it.
That space was not a "free space". It was an outlaw wall and the business owners and property owners hated it.
It is illegal vandalism to paint property that is not your own without permission.
QuoteIt was not an outlaw wall, in fact the wall started in a much smaller and confined area and ended up growing with the permission of the nearby merchants.
Sorry, the merchants did NOT give permission, nor did the property owners. They were furious and fed up which is why they made the effort. I did not do it by myself.
Love you too, but you are the one taking the extreme position on this. We'll just have to agree to disagree.
Everything DW said, with respect to police and the arrests, was absolutely correct.
The area used for graffitti got bigger and bigger, moving from the courtyard to the entire building, until folks started climbing to the roof. Broken pipes, broken heating/coolng systems, trash, fights, etc got out of hand.
The original people using the walls failed to keep the new comers in line with the proper ethics.
There's got to be some public land, like under a bridge or in a park, where a graffiti wall can be constructed. The kind of residents that don't like graffiti walls live in gated communities anyhow. Anyone that's living in the city probably would get a kick out of a graffiti wall, it's called urban living folks. Build an open graffiti wall in a visible area and then enforce the laws to protect small business owners. Everyone should be happy.
Quote from: NaldoAveKnight on June 08, 2015, 07:19:51 PM
There's got to be some public land, like under a bridge or in a park, where a graffiti wall can be constructed. The kind of residents that don't like graffiti walls live in gated communities anyhow. Anyone that's living in the city probably would get a kick out of a graffiti wall, it's called urban living folks. Build an open graffiti wall in a visible area and then enforce the laws to protect small business owners. Everyone should be happy.
I don't necessarily disagree. But public space for graffiti (or "street art") won't stop it from happening elsewhere, unfortunately.
This is a non-issue - Take the art down a few blocks on Park Street in Brooklyn....no cameras, paint all you want as few people actually travel the road. There are some abandoned Department of Children Family Service buildings down there that could use some paint......and Brinton's is close by....win-win!
QuoteThe kind of residents that don't like graffiti walls live in gated communities anyhow.
I live one block from 5 Points and love it! The building I live in has had graffiti painted on it more than once.
I don't understand how anyone can think it is OK for anyone to spray paint stuff on someones property without permission. That just does not compute.
Its hard to miss the correlation when the damaged pipes, A/c equipement, etc. are under to a brand new throw up or tag. It was as if they were trying to sign thier work. One of the groups mention earlier were real bad about that, plus tagging people's vehicles, mom & pop business, etc. One of them in particular, was lucky the police found him before Alva of 5 points Coffee and Spice did (his truck was tagged).
The police did not volunteer to persue them.. the businesses in the area that were damaged demanded the police do something. I personally spoke to several of them; asking them to settle down and consider the weight of the law that was coming at them. I was usually laughed at and told no thank you. They came to regret not listening to my friendly advice.
The free 5 Points wall/courtyard, as nice an idea as it was, opened the door for a competition between the different vandals who were coming to the area from all corners of Jax. That competitive mentality led to pushing the boundries past what the businesses wanted to deal with (or could afford to deal with).