Metro Jacksonville

I received some terrible news this morning.  My barista told me they were informed yesterday that the Landing Starbucks would be closing in 30 days.  I asked if they were given a reason why because the store always seems so active.  She was told (and I'm paraphrasing) a lot of businesses are leaving downtown and Starbucks feels being in downtown Jacksonville no longer makes sense.

I'm pretty upset, selfishly because I go there about twice a day, and more importantly, because this is another step back for our city.

That's a real shame. Having the Starbucks there gave the area a little more "legitimacy" if that makes sense. There are other places downtown to get coffee but downtown certainly doesn't need to lose another business. The Landing REALLY doesn't need it.

Sbarro's at the Landing closed down as well... I don't think I've ever seen a Sbarro's close up shop... anywhere.

so when are we going to hit rock bottom Downtown? this kind of bad news just keeps piling up for Downtown.

Wow. 

No Starbucks downtown? Is it considered a downtown without one?...i think even lake city  has a starbucks downtown...is there some conspiracy by the outlying business centers to crush downtown? how can other office centers in this city be growing and downtown just withering away?

Quote from: fsujax on March 18, 2011, 09:14:08 AM
so when are we going to hit rock bottom Downtown? this kind of bad news just keeps piling up for Downtown.

When are we going to open a "Rock Bottom" downtown?

I fully expect one weekend to be downtown and see tumbleweeds and hear the music from The Good, the Bad and the Ugly.

"Hard Rock Bottom", Cowford

There's no such thing as remaining status quo.  When you go stagnant, you decline.  The Northbank has been in decline ever since the super bowl circus on Bay Street packed up and left.  This trend won't change until the walkable core becomes a top public priority with the city.

Quote from: fsujax on March 18, 2011, 09:14:08 AM
so when are we going to hit rock bottom Downtown? this kind of bad news just keeps piling up for Downtown.

Rock bottom will be when the homeless people leave downtown because it no longer makes sense and the environment starts bringing them down...

At least we have a million dollar pocket across the street from the backdoors of the library.

is the closest Starbucks now Riverside?

Will the last person to leave the Landing please turn out the lights?

Quote from: thelakelander on March 18, 2011, 09:49:32 AM
There's no such thing as remaining status quo.  When you go stagnant, you decline.  The Northbank has been in decline ever since the super bowl circus on Bay Street packed up and left.  This trend won't change until the walkable core becomes a top public priority with the city.

Im not sure that in can at this point. I mean, look how outta control our city boundaries have gotten. For the love of God, Baldwin is considered to be in "the city of Jacksonville". Baldwin! What is even the purpose of that?? Its insane.

Point being, there's simply no reason why most the population in this kind of mess would even want to go downtown. For one thing, its a commute (thanks to our gigantic land mass). And what's there for them that they couldn't get in the suburbs??

There's maybe one or two reason why most people in this place would consider even going downtown I've noticed. A football game, a "one time" even like to watch fireworks, or to go to their office (which is becoming less & less likely these days).

Not that I care about Starbucks, I think they're terrible. But this isn't really about them specifically. It's kind of what they represent.

Quote from: thelakelander on March 18, 2011, 09:49:32 AM
The Northbank has been in decline ever since the super bowl circus on Bay Street packed up and left.

Was just thinking about this earlier today. It's ironic that the Superbowl was supposed to inject all of this new life into our downtown in the years after the game, but in reality, I think we've taken a lot of steps back since then. Make no mistake about this, this closing is big. Not for the fact that the Landing is losing a coffee shop, but for what it represents. It kind of feels like we're genuinely moving toward panic mode when it comes to downtown occupancy.

I remember going to downtown Baltimore in 2006 at the height of the boom. My wife and I were walking around thinking about how great it was that Jacksonville could soon have a core this vibrant.

Fast forward five years and we haven't taken two steps back. It feels like we've taken two hundred steps back.

Quote from: KenFSU on March 18, 2011, 10:11:46 AM
Was just thinking about this earlier today. It's ironic that the Superbowl was supposed to inject all of this new life into our downtown in the years after the game, but in reality, I think we've taken a lot of steps back since then. Make no mistake about this, this closing is big. Not for the fact that the Landing is losing a coffee shop, but for what it represents. It kind of feels like we're genuinely moving toward panic mode when it comes to downtown occupancy.

CoJ expected the game to be a catalyst that required no further participation or cooperation on their part.  It was a mistake to think we could just go back to business as usual (or in some cases make things tougher) after that one week and expect anything to change.

Quote from: peestandingup on March 18, 2011, 10:01:27 AM

Quote from: thelakelander on March 18, 2011, 09:49:32 AM
There's no such thing as remaining status quo.  When you go stagnant, you decline.  The Northbank has been in decline ever since the super bowl circus on Bay Street packed up and left.  This trend won't change until the walkable core becomes a top public priority with the city.

Im not sure that in can at this point. I mean, look how outta control our city boundaries have gotten. For the love of God, Baldwin is considered to be in "the city of Jacksonville". Baldwin! What is even the purpose of that?? Its insane.

Point being, there's simply no reason why most the population in this kind of mess would even want to go downtown. For one thing, its a commute (thanks to our gigantic land mass). And what's there for them that they couldn't get in the suburbs??

There's maybe one or two reason why most people in this place would consider even going downtown I've noticed. A football game, a "one time" even like to watch fireworks, or to go to their office (which is becoming less & less likely these days).

Not that I care about Starbucks, I think they're terrible. But this isn't really about them specifically. It's kind of what they represent.

I agree with you about Starbucks - I don't particularly like their coffee, but having a Starbucks downtown (and at the Landing) gave the area the feel of an "actual" downtown.

I think it's time to stick a fork in downtown. It's done. Pull it out of the proverbial oven and dump it in the trash. Let's start fresh. Speaking of downtown and broken dreams, whatever happened to that Laura St Trio project?

Quote from: Bativac on March 18, 2011, 10:21:19 AM
Speaking of downtown and broken dreams, whatever happened to that Laura St Trio project?

{crickets}

What about the old library?

Downtown is toast.  Southside/Tinsletown/Town Center is the new downtown.  At least that's what 95% of the population thinks.

Quote from: ac on March 18, 2011, 10:20:11 AM

Quote from: KenFSU on March 18, 2011, 10:11:46 AM
Was just thinking about this earlier today. It's ironic that the Superbowl was supposed to inject all of this new life into our downtown in the years after the game, but in reality, I think we've taken a lot of steps back since then. Make no mistake about this, this closing is big. Not for the fact that the Landing is losing a coffee shop, but for what it represents. It kind of feels like we're genuinely moving toward panic mode when it comes to downtown occupancy.

CoJ expected the game to be a catalyst that required no further participation or cooperation on their part.  It was a mistake to think we could just go back to business as usual (or in some cases make things tougher) after that one week and expect anything to change.

We missed the boat on the Super Bowl completely.  You're supposed to take advantage of major events like that to push legacy projects through that last long after the festivities end.  In Salt Lake City and Houston, that meant riding the momentum to implement starter light rail systems.  In Detroit, it meant creating a major public space like Campus Martius Park.  Thus, when the game left, these downtown and urban core projects were left in place to stimulate additional redevelopment, infill and activity.  If I remember correctly, we used the momentum to light bridges, plant some palms on our interstates and repave several existing streets.  While nice, when maintained, those aren't the types of public projects that keep on giving.

Addeco Group is officially out of downtown within the next few days.  We could turn the entire downtown into a community garden.  



http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=533174

Quote from: cline on March 18, 2011, 10:50:17 AM
Downtown is toast.  Southside/Tinsletown/Town Center is the new downtown.  

That area is no more of a downtown than Blanding, Pinellas County's US 19 corridor, Broward County's Sawgrass Mills area or Miami-Dade's Dadeland area and never will be.  If we want DT to be a vibrant place, we need to get the basics right.  That means overcoming political stalemates between city government and downtown business owners (ex. the Landing).  That also means revising public policy to level the playing field (ex. it may be Philly-style tax abatement time).

Quote from: KenFSU on March 18, 2011, 10:11:46 AM
Make no mistake about this, this closing is big. Not for the fact that the Landing is losing a coffee shop, but for what it represents. It kind of feels like we're genuinely moving toward panic mode when it comes to downtown occupancy.

Absolutely.  After hearing this, I wouldn't be surprised at all to see the Landing close down completely within a year.

Quote from: thelakelander on March 18, 2011, 10:54:47 AM
That also means revising public policy to level the playing field

Unfortunately, the city leadership takes this literally...they think the answer is to level everything downtown.

March 22nd, is the best opportunity to change that line of thinking.

QuoteWe missed the boat on the Super Bowl completely.  You're supposed to take advantage of major events like that to push legacy projects through that last long after the festivities end.  In Salt Lake City and Houston, that meant riding the momentum to implement starter light rail systems.  In Detroit, it meant creating a major public space like Campus Martius Park.  Thus, when the game left, these downtown and urban core projects were left in place to stimulate additional redevelopment, infill and activity.  If I remember correctly, we used the momentum to light bridges, plant some palms on our interstates and repave several existing streets.  While nice, when maintained, those aren't the types of public projects that keep on giving.

Remember Lake's words very clearly when you vote!!!  

IMHO, if we had Matt Carlucci instead of John Peyton as a mayor during our Super Bowl moment in the sun... we would have seized the moment and achieved a catalyst of urbanization in our city.  Instead, Peyton sat on his hands and opted to look good in front of the cameras of the national media.

Leadership and vision have been lacking for far too long.

Vote for a leader who has a clear vision of this city and can inspire and engage others to achieve that vision.

I truly believe that candidate is Audrey Moran.

Quote from: thelakelander on March 18, 2011, 10:54:47 AM

Quote from: cline on March 18, 2011, 10:50:17 AM
Downtown is toast.  Southside/Tinsletown/Town Center is the new downtown.  

That area is no more of a downtown than Blanding, Pinellas County's US 19 corridor, Broward County's Sawgrass Mills area or Miami-Dade's Dadeland area and never will be.  If we want DT to be a vibrant place, we need to get the basics right.  That means overcoming political stalemates between city government and downtown business owners (ex. the Landing).  That also means revising public policy to level the playing field (ex. it may be Philly-style tax abatement time).

I agree with you.  I said that tongue in cheek.  But I feel the problem is:  1.  Many citizens of Jax probably have no idea what a real downtown looks like.  Most probably haven't even been to our downtown in years and 2. these same people don't realize the importance of having a vibrant and successful downtown.  This line of thinking transfers into our politicians (i.e. city council and mayor).  Hopefully that will change with the upcoming election. 

Quote from: finehoe on March 18, 2011, 10:55:07 AM

Quote from: KenFSU on March 18, 2011, 10:11:46 AM
Make no mistake about this, this closing is big. Not for the fact that the Landing is losing a coffee shop, but for what it represents. It kind of feels like we're genuinely moving toward panic mode when it comes to downtown occupancy.

Absolutely.  After hearing this, I wouldn't be surprised at all to see the Landing close down completely within a year.

Several Landing restaurants do quite well.  Check out the Landing tonight, it will be packed.  It is still by far the center of activity in our downtown core.  Starbucks is not closing due to a lack of sales, just consolidating and tightening belts in areas where they do not forecast growth.

OK so our conservative government takes there typical hands off approach....so why are businesses leaving?  They said once government steps out of the picture (which is all it does around here) then business will come back.  Maybe the (being found nowhere) approach of Mike Hogan will work better......I bet his 'where the hell is our mayor' approach will make everything better!  ???

sorry their

I must say the place was jam packed last Friday night. People were everywhere. Maybe Starbucks couldnt come to an agreement with the owner on their lease? just a possibility, other than business being so abysmal.

I wonder if the parking disagreement had anything to do with this?

Quote from: fieldafm on March 18, 2011, 11:02:22 AM
Several Landing restaurants do quite well.  Check out the Landing tonight, it will be packed.  It is still by far the center of activity in our downtown core.  Starbucks is not closing due to a lack of sales, just consolidating and tightening belts in areas where they do not forecast growth.

Other than Hooters, what restaurants do quite well? I am just curious. I don't usually go to the restaurants there unless I am attending something at the T-U Center.

Quote from: fsujax on March 18, 2011, 11:09:17 AM
I must say the place was jam packed last Friday night. People were everywhere. Maybe Starbucks couldnt come to an agreement with the owner on their lease? just a possibility, other than business being so abysmal.

Or maybe they are leaving because Sleiman needs to make room for new and exciting major restaurants to move into the Landing.

Quote from: cline on March 18, 2011, 11:00:23 AM
I agree with you.  I said that tongue in cheek.  But I feel the problem is:  1.  Many citizens of Jax probably have no idea what a real downtown looks like.  Most probably haven't even been to our downtown in years and 2. these same people don't realize the importance of having a vibrant and successful downtown.  This line of thinking transfers into our politicians (i.e. city council and mayor).  Hopefully that will change with the upcoming election.  

True.  However, things are so severe that we don't have time to convince these types of downtown's importance before doing anything.  My advice would be to let them be and move on without them.  Keep in mind, when I say this, I'm speaking from the belief that we've over complicated downtown's issues and that the solutions are simple and affordable.  Thus, if I'm not asking Mandarin or Argyle guy for money out of his pocket to do something, I probably won't spend much time trying to get him to buy in either.

QuoteOK so our conservative government takes there typical hands off approach....so why are businesses leaving?  They said once government steps out of the picture (which is all it does around here) then business will come back.

Government is still very much getting in the way of small business growth in downtown.  Government sponsors unfriendly signage policies, promotes traffic patterns that make downtown auto-centric instead of pedestrian centric, makes permitting very hard for such things as outdoor seating for restaurants, promotes highly unfriendly parking policies, does not address the homeless issue(perception of safety) and refuses to create a compact pedestrian friendly environment.  When the playing field is not level, businesses will go to places where they can compete without an unfair disadvantage... such as downtown.  

The merchant association and sheriff's department teamed up to recreate the Park/King area focusing on these exact things.. and the area is much more vibrant than downtown in a VERY short period.

What does that tell you?

Quote from: cline on March 18, 2011, 11:14:05 AM

Quote from: fsujax on March 18, 2011, 11:09:17 AM
I must say the place was jam packed last Friday night. People were everywhere. Maybe Starbucks couldnt come to an agreement with the owner on their lease? just a possibility, other than business being so abysmal.

Or maybe they are leaving because Sleiman needs to make room for new and exciting major restaurants to move into the Landing.

Maybe he is making room for an IKEA or Bass Pro Shop.

Quote from: copperfiend on March 18, 2011, 11:13:15 AM

Quote from: fieldafm on March 18, 2011, 11:02:22 AM
Several Landing restaurants do quite well.  Check out the Landing tonight, it will be packed.  It is still by far the center of activity in our downtown core.  Starbucks is not closing due to a lack of sales, just consolidating and tightening belts in areas where they do not forecast growth.

Other than Hooters, what restaurants do quite well? I am just curious. I don't usually go to the restaurants there unless I am attending something at the T-U Center.

Go to the Landing during the week at lunchtime or go to the Landing on the weekend.  It was very hard getting a seat outside this past weekend.  The courtyard was FULL Saturday for the gumbo fest and there was a nice crowd all day Sunday as well.

Tonight will be packed, check it out for yourself.

and to add to what fieldafm said....I went down there Tuesday night around 9pm...Hooters had a line out the door!

Build IKEA in the Jacksonville's Shipyard Area and the piers.

Good example is the IKEA in South Philadelphia where the SS United States and other ships are in docks next to it. It is a good visual cue to envision what Jacksonville's River Scene might look like.

(http://cache.virtualtourist.com/932510-IKEA-Philadelphia.jpg)

(http://cruiselinehistory.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/ss_unitedstates_web_1.jpg)

(http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/11040152.jpg)

(http://ic2.pbase.com/o6/91/126091/1/104086128.XczRnFBl.atypical.jpg)
(http://www.ikea.com/ms/en_US/img/ikea_near_you/store_maps/us_South-Philadelphia.gif)

Quote from: copperfiend on March 18, 2011, 11:19:11 AM
Maybe he is making room for an IKEA or Bass Pro Shop.

I thought they were holding out for Walgreens and Office Depot.

Honestly. We need an unique store in Jacksonville like IKEA to actually DRAW people to Downtown. There are too many damn Office Deport, Walgreen, etc etc. Those business can build AROUND IKEA. I am desperate for IKEA to be in Jacksonville. It is a huge untouched market for IKEA to tap into it.

-Josh

Quote from: finehoe on March 18, 2011, 11:52:23 AM

Quote from: copperfiend on March 18, 2011, 11:19:11 AM
Maybe he is making room for an IKEA or Bass Pro Shop.

I thought they were holding out for Walgreens and Office Depot.

Don't forget the Cheesecake Factory.

Quote from: fsujax on March 18, 2011, 11:09:17 AM
I must say the place was jam packed last Friday night. People were everywhere. Maybe Starbucks couldnt come to an agreement with the owner on their lease? just a possibility, other than business being so abysmal.

According to one of the Starbucks employees, this is the root of the reason. Sleiman wanted to go up on the rent and Starbucks corporate didn't think it was worth it, citing the slow death of downtown.

Just wondering....why would a place like IKEA or Cheesecake Factory be interested in investing in downtown Jax?  Considering their size, there are a millions of places around the globe that would present them with better financial gain opportunities.

Quote from: thelakelander on March 18, 2011, 12:04:43 PM
Just wondering....why would a place like IKEA or Cheesecake Factory be interested in investing in downtown Jax?  Considering their size, there are a millions of places around the globe that would present them with better financial gain opportunities.

As nice as it would be to see those destinations downtown, I have to agree with Lake.  We can't generate the political will needed to get rid of parking meters and create/update signage.  Shooting for wholly new destinations downtown would be a waste of time and effort until we can master the cheap and free basics.

Quote from: thelakelander on March 18, 2011, 12:04:43 PM
Just wondering....why would a place like IKEA or Cheesecake Factory be interested in investing in downtown Jax?  Considering their size, there are a millions of places around the globe that would present them with better financial gain opportunities.

this is the reason why we won't see one in our lifetime. just be happy for the new homeless park and rotting buildings. that's about the best we can do.

QuoteHonestly. We need an unique store in Jacksonville like IKEA to actually DRAW people to Downtown.

It's simple economics.. Jacksonville does not have the demographics to support an IKEA downtown, Town Center or any other commercial area.  

Jacksonville's metrics do support a Bass Pro Shops, which continue to explore this market... but that will be at the Town Center if it does come here, not DT.

Small business can grow downtown if the city creates an environment in which small business can succeed downtown.  One doesn't have to travel far away(but if you do, Downtown Orlando is a great example)... you can simply go to the Park/King commercial district, Avondale, the beaches town centers, Five Points or San Marco.  Each district offers a pedestrian friendly business environment that does not have parking, signage or permitting restrictions.

Quote from: thelakelander on March 18, 2011, 12:04:43 PM
Just wondering....why would a place like IKEA or Cheesecake Factory be interested in investing in downtown Jax?

They wouldn't.

Quote from: finehoe on March 18, 2011, 11:52:23 AM

Quote from: copperfiend on March 18, 2011, 11:19:11 AM
Maybe he is making room for an IKEA or Bass Pro Shop.

I thought they were holding out for Walgreens and Office Depot.

Walgreens and Office Depot actually make more sense, as those are immediately useful to whoever actually works and lives there. From what I read and observe, seems like many basic amenities are lacking.

Quote from: fieldafm on March 18, 2011, 12:19:21 PM

QuoteHonestly. We need an unique store in Jacksonville like IKEA to actually DRAW people to Downtown.

It's simple economics.. Jacksonville does not have the demographics to support an IKEA downtown, Town Center or any other commercial area.  

Jacksonville's metrics do support a Bass Pro Shops, which continue to explore this market... but that will be at the Town Center if it does come here, not DT.

Small business can grow downtown if the city creates an environment in which small business can succeed downtown.  One doesn't have to travel far away(but if you do, Downtown Orlando is a great example)... you can simply go to the Park/King commercial district, Avondale, the beaches town centers, Five Points or San Marco.  Each district offers a pedestrian friendly business environment that does not have parking, signage or permitting restrictions.

I have always had this theroy. If you bulid it, they will come. If there was an Ikea in downtown Jacksonville it would be booming. It would be the only one in town. With that being said, the people will come. And Jacksonville residents have been dying for an Ikea for sometime now. Feel the same way about Macy's as well. However, from a business and demographics standpoint, it would not be a good move.

Quote from: danem on March 18, 2011, 12:26:41 PM

Quote from: finehoe on March 18, 2011, 11:52:23 AM

Quote from: copperfiend on March 18, 2011, 11:19:11 AM
Maybe he is making room for an IKEA or Bass Pro Shop.

I thought they were holding out for Walgreens and Office Depot.

Walgreens and Office Depot actually make more sense, as those are immediately useful to whoever actually works and lives there. From what I read and observe, seems like many basic amenities are lacking.

You are so right. Stores of this nature would be a great start.

Quote from: copperfiend on March 18, 2011, 12:21:29 PM

Quote from: thelakelander on March 18, 2011, 12:04:43 PM
Just wondering....why would a place like IKEA or Cheesecake Factory be interested in investing in downtown Jax?

They wouldn't.

What!?  Aren't retailers beating down the door to locate at The Landing once it gets its dedicated parking?

If Audrey Moran or an insightful mayor wins, she would help and push the downtown development, then the option for IKEA or Macy to build their store in the downtown would become more attractive.

Baby steps, baby steps guys!

-Josh

Quote from: cline on March 18, 2011, 01:04:58 PM

Quote from: copperfiend on March 18, 2011, 12:21:29 PM

Quote from: thelakelander on March 18, 2011, 12:04:43 PM
Just wondering....why would a place like IKEA or Cheesecake Factory be interested in investing in downtown Jax?

They wouldn't.

What!?  Aren't retailers beating down the door to locate at The Landing once it gets its dedicated parking?

Not trying to be funny but we can't even land a McDonalds downtown.  I'm still amazed by how empty the sidewalks are at lunch time during the work week.  You won't get you an IKEA or Macy's.  However, having dedicated parking could potentially land something like a Walgreens, Office Depot, BW3 or microbrewery. 

I wonder what the Jacksonville city Government could have done lately to convince Starbucks they were not serious about downtown and the Landing?  hmmm

Quote from: cline on March 18, 2011, 01:04:58 PM

Quote from: copperfiend on March 18, 2011, 12:21:29 PM

Quote from: thelakelander on March 18, 2011, 12:04:43 PM
Just wondering....why would a place like IKEA or Cheesecake Factory be interested in investing in downtown Jax?

They wouldn't.

What!?  Aren't retailers beating down the door to locate at The Landing once it gets its dedicated parking?

No, just Fuddrucker's.

Quote from: thelakelander on March 18, 2011, 01:20:24 PM

Quote from: cline on March 18, 2011, 01:04:58 PM

Quote from: copperfiend on March 18, 2011, 12:21:29 PM

Quote from: thelakelander on March 18, 2011, 12:04:43 PM
Just wondering....why would a place like IKEA or Cheesecake Factory be interested in investing in downtown Jax?

They wouldn't.

What!?  Aren't retailers beating down the door to locate at The Landing once it gets its dedicated parking?

Not trying to be funny but we can't even land a McDonalds downtown.  I'm still amazed by how empty the sidewalks are at lunch time during the work week.  You won't get you an IKEA or Macy's.  However, having dedicated parking could potentially land something like a Walgreens, Office Depot, BW3 or microbrewery.  

To be fair, The Landing used to have a microbrewery at one point.  It closed years ago.

I just want to know when we get hot dog carts on the Main Street bridge.

Quote from: thelakelander on March 18, 2011, 01:20:24 PM

Quote from: cline on March 18, 2011, 01:04:58 PM

Quote from: copperfiend on March 18, 2011, 12:21:29 PM

Quote from: thelakelander on March 18, 2011, 12:04:43 PM
Just wondering....why would a place like IKEA or Cheesecake Factory be interested in investing in downtown Jax?

They wouldn't.

What!?  Aren't retailers beating down the door to locate at The Landing once it gets its dedicated parking?

Not trying to be funny but we can't even land a McDonalds downtown.  I'm still amazed by how empty the sidewalks are at lunch time during the work week.  You won't get you an IKEA or Macy's.  However, having dedicated parking could potentially land something like a Walgreens, Office Depot, BW3 or microbrewery. 

I say get all the things that we actually can, especially things that are useful for those who still work and live there, or could potentially work and live there, and those other things will be possible later. Gee, do all that and even Starbucks would come back downtown some day, and maybe not even to the Landing.

One question, isn't IKEA a giant warehouse/showroom store where you drive over, park, and leave with giant flat boxes of to-be-assembled furniture? I can't imagine any downtown needing that.

hell, at this point they (hot dog carts) will be relocating to Deerwood along gate parkway!

Quote from: copperfiend on March 18, 2011, 01:31:24 PM
I just want to know when we get hot dog carts on the Main Street bridge.

I want to know when Peyton is going to do that sassy dance he did at Club Paris again.

Quote from: fsujax on March 18, 2011, 01:56:42 PM
hell, at this point they (hot dog carts) will be relocating to Deerwood along gate parkway!

There is a hot dog cart at the Home Depot just up the street from Deerwood :)

now they will line Deerwood along Gate, Touchton Rd, etc.

How about we all just pool our money, buy the Laura St. Trio, rename it the Metro Jacksonville, renovate it, and live in it. How close would that get us to 10000? Then take an oath that we will not spend money outside of downtown. Open our own grocery store and furniture store. Other people will start to use them. Downtown living will be more viable because these necessities are there, and a bunch of great people. Let it spread from there.

Or just go downtown for meals and entertainment and whatever you can. Whenever you want to hit up the town center for something, think, is it at all possible to get this downtown? For restaurants, certainly. For a movie, maybe not (but you can do 5points or San Marco and that will be acceptable). Groceries? Wynn-Dixie should work. Bars? there's plenty, you just gotta know where to look. We can help the businesses that are currently there do so well that they want to expand or are bragging to all their other business friends how great and profitable downtown is.

For the record, Chamblins has amazing coffee and at least it's a local owner.  Go there, enjoy your coffee, and forget about Starbucks.  The other one left and they were getting free rent.  Something great will become of our downtown eventually; if only because there is a lot of money to be made.  Then Starbucks will come back and hopefully some landlord charges them double rent like they charge us for burnt coffee :-)

Quote from: downtownjag on March 18, 2011, 02:34:39 PM
For the record, Chamblins has amazing coffee and at least it's a local owner.  Go there, enjoy your coffee, and forget about Starbucks.  The other one left and they were getting free rent.  Something great will become of our downtown eventually; if only because there is a lot of money to be made.  Then Starbucks will come back and hopefully some landlord charges them double rent like they charge us for burnt coffee :-)

The coffee that is lower quality than what you can get for 10 times less (just picking a number, its probably more like 100) out of a can, and was also beat in a taste test by McDonalds' 4 times less Premium Roast. Proving that Sprite was wrong: Image is everything - Thirst is nothing.

Quote from: cline on March 18, 2011, 02:01:01 PM

Quote from: fsujax on March 18, 2011, 01:56:42 PM
hell, at this point they (hot dog carts) will be relocating to Deerwood along gate parkway!

There is a hot dog cart at the Home Depot just up the street from Deerwood :)

soon, instead of hot dog carts, packs of wild dogs roaming the streets

Quote from: downtownjag on March 18, 2011, 02:34:39 PM
Something great will become of our downtown eventually; if only because there is a lot of money to be made.

I would also throw in the fact that we have an absolutely beautiful downtown. Our skyline blows away every other city of Jacksonville's size. I was driving past downtown along the Fuller Warren Bridge last night for the first time in months, and it still took my breath away. The lights, and the river, and the bridges, and the buildings. It really is a beautiful downtown. You drive past it at night, and you think "man, there has to be some damn exciting stuff going on across the river." But alas, there isn't. Based on the existing infrastructure, downtown should be thriving -- booming even -- and the fact that it's not really is a testament to the complete failure of our leadership in Jacksonville. It takes a lot of effort to so severely screw up what should come so easy.

Quote from: RWNeal on March 18, 2011, 11:58:20 AM

Quote from: fsujax on March 18, 2011, 11:09:17 AM
I must say the place was jam packed last Friday night. People were everywhere. Maybe Starbucks couldnt come to an agreement with the owner on their lease? just a possibility, other than business being so abysmal.

According to one of the Starbucks employees, this is the root of the reason. Sleiman wanted to go up on the rent and Starbucks corporate didn't think it was worth it, citing the slow death of downtown.

which is the same reason Twisted Martini closed.....anyone want to bet Sleiman will say it is bacause there isn't enough dedicated parking?

Quotewas also beat in a taste test by McDonalds' 4 times

- good to know; now we can just go to the downtown McDonald's..........oh, wait.

Quote from: blizz01 on March 18, 2011, 02:47:22 PM

Quotewas also beat in a taste test by McDonalds' 4 times

- good to know; now we can just go to the downtown McDonald's..........oh, wait.

You'll have to stick with Burger King downtown.

Quote from: PeeJayEss on March 18, 2011, 02:43:57 PM

Quote from: downtownjag on March 18, 2011, 02:34:39 PM
For the record, Chamblins has amazing coffee and at least it's a local owner.  Go there, enjoy your coffee, and forget about Starbucks.  The other one left and they were getting free rent.  Something great will become of our downtown eventually; if only because there is a lot of money to be made.  Then Starbucks will come back and hopefully some landlord charges them double rent like they charge us for burnt coffee :-)

The coffee that is lower quality than what you can get for 10 times less (just picking a number, its probably more like 100) out of a can, and was also beat in a taste test by McDonalds' 4 times less Premium Roast. Proving that Sprite was wrong: Image is everything - Thirst is nothing.

That's because the bloody Starfuck coffee are double roasted, which is a cardinal sin for maintaining the integrity of the taste of the coffee in my opinion. All of the good oil from the coffee bean is lost in the double-roasting process. I only go to Starbuck for their good desert and specialty drinks like white chocolate iced mocha latte lowfat sugarfree.

-Josh

Stephen, can you call Starbucks corporate and get an official response as to why they are closing? this could be interesting.

starbucks is really pointless.  while anything downtown closing is a bad thing, starbucks is among what we can most afford to lose.

Quote from: cline on March 18, 2011, 02:01:01 PM

Quote from: fsujax on March 18, 2011, 01:56:42 PM
hell, at this point they (hot dog carts) will be relocating to Deerwood along gate parkway!

There is a hot dog cart at the Home Depot just up the street from Deerwood :)

I've actually stopped there a couple of times over the last two years or so.

 http://jacksonville.com/entertainment/food-and-dining/2011-03-18/story/starbucks-close-jacksonville-landing (http://jacksonville.com/entertainment/food-and-dining/2011-03-18/story/starbucks-close-jacksonville-landing)

Chamblin's makes better coffee IMO.. and I can get real food there.

yes Stephen...if we just gave Sleiman his dedicated parking, everything would be fine at the Landing....just like it is at all his suburban shopping centers....case in point, the one on Southside just north of the Avenues!

You have to admit it happened right on the heels of the city dropping the ball on the parking issue and passing it to the next Admin. Just sayin.

I think Orange Tree was open less than 30 days.

Quote from: stephendare on March 18, 2011, 03:12:01 PM
The times union article went into more detail from the landing's POV.

QuoteStarbucks is closing its store in The Jacksonville Landing. Janice Lowe, general manager of the Landing, said Starbucks has informed her that it will leave when its lease runs out at the end of April.

She said she wasn't sure exactly how long it had been there, but thought that it was at least 10 years.

"They had business," she said, "but Starbucks has a lot of expenses. I imagine they'd just tell you that they're not doing the numbers they need to for a corporate store."

Starbucks headquarters has not yet responded to the Times-Union.

Starbucks had previously closed its other downtown Jacksonville location on Forsyth Street. It was one of six area closings announced in 2008, along with about 600 others nationwide.

Lowe said the closing will hit the Landing particularly hard, but that she understood the pressure on the merchants.

"We still don't have parking, and we've had more than 400 days of construction in front of the Landing," Lowe said. "I've been at the Landing for a long time, but I've never seen anything like this.

"I'm going to tell you, the construction on Laura Street has been devastating, and it's not done yet," she said.

Sbarro closed in the Landing about a month ago, she said.

"It's the least occupied the food court has ever been in the whole term of the Landing,"

Wouldn't it be funny if the city finished beautifying the Laura St intersection, only to be showcasing an empty Jacksonville Landing?

Well, not "funny" funny, but "that's Jacksonville fer yuh" funny.

I love independent places, too, but even the decent independent places in downtown Jax don't have very accommodating store hours (unless you're one of the many dozen who actually work downtown), and they can be a little...low-rent on the inside. I'm not a fan of Starbucks but the name carries a certain cachet that "Jax City Cafe" doesn't. Losing a Starbucks just doesn't help the overall "feel" of downtown, at all.

Not to mention Sbarro closing. Ouch.

There's really no way to put a positive spin on losing a couple (more) national chain restaurants downtown.  Not positive at all.

Maybe it's because of the heinous new road 'improvements' - Every time I circle the roundabout I feel like my car's suspension is going to implode.

Quotewhite chocolate iced mocha latte lowfat sugarfree

Oh, for a minute I forgot we were even talking about coffee.  ;)

How about 4 shots on ice with a splash of cream.  It's my own personal 5-Hour Energy blend and it only runs $2.95.  But alas, I get stuck waiting in line behind 6 other people ordering the things you mentioned above, so it only really boils down to a 4.5 hour energy.

I guess it goes back to my bartending days when people have the audacity to order shit like a mudslide or a daquari (sans island ice machine - we're talking blended drink) or any other time consuming drink when the bar is already 6 people deep.  At some point, customer service goes completely out the window, you rip the blender off of the counter, throw it on the floor and announce to the bar that the blender is broken, the fru-fru mixers are all gone and all we're serving are drafts, bottles or any liquor drink on ice that doesn't rhyme with ackery, icane or unner.  Sir, how many rum and cokes would you like?  

This actual event may have happened at the Landing when Jock's and Jill's was still there and during FL/GA weekend in '02
.

Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on March 18, 2011, 04:05:24 PM

Quotewhite chocolate iced mocha latte lowfat sugarfree

Oh, for a minute I forgot we were even talking about coffee.  ;)

How about 4 shots on ice with a splash of cream.  It's my own personal 5-Hour Energy blend and it only runs $2.95.  But alas, I get stuck waiting in line behind 6 other people ordering the things you mentioned above, so it only really boils down to a 4.5 hour energy.

I guess it goes back to my bartending days when people have the audacity to order shit like a mudslide or a daquari (sans island ice machine - we're talking blended drink) or any other time consuming drink when the bar is already 6 people deep.  At some point, customer service goes completely out the window, you rip the blender off of the counter, throw it on the floor and announce to the bar that the blender is broken, the fru-fru mixers are all gone and all we're serving are drafts, bottles or any liquor drink on ice that doesn't rhyme with ackery, icane or unner.  Sir, how many rum and cokes would you like?  

This actual event may have happened at the Landing when Jock's and Jill's was still there and during FL/GA weekend in '02
.

:D Last time I was at Caps some guy asked the bartender if they had an Oasis machine. The bartender told him they did. The guy asked him if they make a Miami Vice and the bartender said they do... but it's called a "pain in the ass".

Is that other coffee place still on the first floor of the Bank of America tower?

When I worked downtown, that's where I'd often go for a caffeine fix.

Quote from: Shwaz on March 18, 2011, 04:07:55 PM
:D Last time I was at Caps some guy asked the bartender if they had an Oasis machine. The bartender told him they did. The guy asked him if they make a Miami Vice and the bartender said they do... but it's called a "pain in the ass".

Or as I tend to call it an "I'm sorry, we're all out."  Can I pour you a rum and coke or if it's for your 'girlfriend', how about a Malibu and pineapple?

Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on March 18, 2011, 04:13:52 PM

Quote from: Shwaz on March 18, 2011, 04:07:55 PM
:D Last time I was at Caps some guy asked the bartender if they had an Oasis machine. The bartender told him they did. The guy asked him if they make a Miami Vice and the bartender said they do... but it's called a "pain in the ass".

Or as I tend to call it an "I'm sorry, we're all out."  Can I pour you a rum and coke or if it's for your 'girlfriend', how about a Malibu and pineapple?

Unless at Dos Gatos... never order anything too extensive.

Wow Greencove Springs has a Starbucks.........downtown JAX........is not WINNING........

Quote from: Shwaz on March 18, 2011, 04:16:53 PM
Unless at Dos Gatos... never order anything too extensive.

This thread is going in a fantastic direction, but completely straying off topic.  I feel a poll later.

Shamus' Rule #3:  To properly consume alcohol you must first, take into consideration the spirit that you plan on consuming, secondly, take into consideration the fellow pouring the spirits and thirdly, take into consideration the spirits of the fellow pouring before consuming anything. 

Translated - don't ever order anything that you wouldn't mind pouring yourself. 

Quote from: stephendare on March 18, 2011, 02:59:19 PM

Quote from: KuroiKetsunoHana on March 18, 2011, 02:56:45 PM
starbucks is really pointless.  while anything downtown closing is a bad thing, starbucks is among what we can most afford to lose.

having lived in places without a starbucks, I have to tell you that it sucks.  Independent coffee shops have a tendency to focus more on the entertainment and ambiance and not have trained employees who actually know their barista craft.

Give me a starbucks any day of the week.

I have personally choked down enough poisonous gruel being misidentified as coffee over the years that I will never underestimate the good influence of the starbucks chain.

Hmm, I dunno. Its my experience that the good independents kicks Starbucks' butt any day of the week. They're really hit or miss there. Some locations know their stuff, but a lot are just awful & full of people who I would never call a "barista". They're basically one step away from flipping burgers at the golden arches.

Example: I was in the Five Points location last week, asked the gal to make me a "pour-over" coffee (this is really standard stuff & I've gotten them there before). She looked at me like I was crazy, asked her manager what it was. Manager goes ahead & tells me "Oh, we stopped doing those. The machined drip is just easier & quicker." I shit you not.

Anyways, I got a latte & asked myself why I continued to even come back there. Granted, their drip is consistently decent no matter which location you go (which is prob why they don't venture away from it). And if you like anything flavored besides coffee, you really can't go wrong. But I dont go to coffee shops to drink milk shakes.

But a lot of independents suck too. It really matters where you are. I honestly don't think we have any coffee shops here that are both real cafes AND have bonafide baristas working in them. Three Layers in pretty close & don't get me wrong, I love hanging out there, but they don't really do great coffee & you're pretty much getting machined drip whether you want it or not. It's more about food, cakes & the ambience.

Point is, if you go to a real "coffee city" (Portland, Seattle, San Fran, NYC, New Orleans, DC, all over Europe, etc), the independents smoke Starbucks. The only people that hit up the Starbucks in those areas are usually the tourists.

As a follow-up to my original post, I had lunch with a friend who is heavily invested in the future of downtown.  He indicated that the main factor influencing the Starbucks RE folks was the increasing vacancy rate in the Independent Life building.  

I think corporate RE and development folks for national operations rely heavily on market data and what they hear from their counterparts in other organizations.  Unfortunately, I'm guessing the data and heresy on downtown Jax doesn't look/sound too good (coinciding with a lease maturity) and this decision didn't have much to do with actual revenue from the store.

Quote from: wsansewjs on March 18, 2011, 02:50:57 PM

Quote from: PeeJayEss on March 18, 2011, 02:43:57 PM

Quote from: downtownjag on March 18, 2011, 02:34:39 PM
For the record, Chamblins has amazing coffee and at least it's a local owner.  Go there, enjoy your coffee, and forget about Starbucks.  The other one left and they were getting free rent.  Something great will become of our downtown eventually; if only because there is a lot of money to be made.  Then Starbucks will come back and hopefully some landlord charges them double rent like they charge us for burnt coffee :-)

The coffee that is lower quality than what you can get for 10 times less (just picking a number, its probably more like 100) out of a can, and was also beat in a taste test by McDonalds' 4 times less Premium Roast. Proving that Sprite was wrong: Image is everything - Thirst is nothing.

That's because the bloody Starfuck coffee are double roasted, which is a cardinal sin for maintaining the integrity of the taste of the coffee in my opinion. All of the good oil from the coffee bean is lost in the double-roasting process. I only go to Starbuck for their good desert and specialty drinks like white chocolate iced mocha latte lowfat sugarfree.

-Josh

They double-roast (sometimes called "second crack") because its easier & they can keep it more consistent across their locations. But this also scorches the shit out of it & strips away any flavor the bean had. Again, they do this is for uniformity. Pretty much most second cracked beans are gonna end up tasting very similar (burnt).

Next time anyone's there, look inside of the clear canister where the barista works that holds the roasted beans. Anytime you see beans with that have that piercing shimmering "shine" on them (where they almost look wet), they're burnt.

Quote from: Jimmy on March 18, 2011, 04:10:12 PM
Is that other coffee place still on the first floor of the Bank of America tower?

When I worked downtown, that's where I'd often go for a caffeine fix.

Java Junction? Its still there.  Most just don't know it actually exists.  I believe they have two locations downtown.  The other location is in the Enterprise Center.  Unfortunately, you can't see either from the street.

Quote from: stephendare on March 18, 2011, 04:58:14 PM

Quote from: peestandingup on March 18, 2011, 04:37:44 PM

Quote from: stephendare on March 18, 2011, 02:59:19 PM

Quote from: KuroiKetsunoHana on March 18, 2011, 02:56:45 PM
starbucks is really pointless.  while anything downtown closing is a bad thing, starbucks is among what we can most afford to lose.

having lived in places without a starbucks, I have to tell you that it sucks.  Independent coffee shops have a tendency to focus more on the entertainment and ambiance and not have trained employees who actually know their barista craft.

Give me a starbucks any day of the week.

I have personally choked down enough poisonous gruel being misidentified as coffee over the years that I will never underestimate the good influence of the starbucks chain.

Hmm, I dunno. Its my experience that the good independents kicks Starbucks' butt any day of the week. They're really hit or miss there. Some locations know their stuff, but a lot are just awful & full of people who I would never call a "barista". They're basically one step away from flipping burgers at the golden arches.

Example: I was in the Five Points location last week, asked the gal to make me a "pour-over" coffee (this is really standard stuff & I've gotten them there before). She looked at me like I was crazy, asked her manager what it was. Manager goes ahead & tells me "Oh, we stopped doing those. The machined drip is just easier & quicker." I shit you not.

Anyways, I got a latte & asked myself why I continued to even come back there. Granted, their drip is consistently decent no matter which location you go (which is prob why they don't venture away from it). And if you like anything flavored besides coffee, you really can't go wrong. But I dont go to coffee shops to drink milk shakes.

But a lot of independents suck too. It really matters where you are. I honestly don't think we have any coffee shops here that are both real cafes AND have bonafide baristas working in them. Three Layers in pretty close & don't get me wrong, I love hanging out there, but they don't really do great coffee & you're pretty much getting machined drip whether you want it or not. It's more about food, cakes & the ambience.

Point is, if you go to a real "coffee city" (Portland, Seattle, San Fran, NYC, New Orleans, DC, all over Europe, etc), the independents smoke Starbucks. The only people that hit up the Starbucks in those areas are usually the tourists.

I actually have a bit of experience in the coffee cities.  I lived in Seattle and San Francisco and worked for a consortium that included corporate starbucks while I was in the Pacific Northwest.

Starbucks spread the gospel of well prepared coffee techniques, and without them as competition, the independents wouldnt have stepped up their game.

Personally I prefer lavazza and sometimes illy espresso beans, but my favorite roaster coffeehouse chain in the world is an outfit called tully's http://www.tullys.com/?ck=1 , which sadly hasnt reached the east coast yet.

I dislike the horrible coffee served up by the completely untrained and uninformed counter service people in most of the coffeehouses of the city.  If it werent for starbucks I would probably switch back to a constant source of l phenylalanine and dl choline.

Jungle Runners was doing some great coffee for a while, and Oscar from Condaxis is probably the most sophisticated coffee guy in the city, but outside of them its just starbucks for me.

Thats very true. Stuff was pretty bad before them, so I gotta hand it to them for at least lighting a fire under some asses.

Yeah, I've met the people at Condaxis. He's pretty awesome. I started getting my green beans there a couple months ago. I haven't tried Bold Bean yet for their beans, although I've heard good things.

BTW, where is Jungle Runners?? Oh, and Pulp in San Marco is actually pretty decent. They do know their techniques, but I've found it to sometimes be hit or miss, depending on who is working that day. And when its a miss, its a BIG miss.

Quote from: stephendare on March 18, 2011, 04:58:14 PM

Quote from: peestandingup on March 18, 2011, 04:37:44 PM

Quote from: stephendare on March 18, 2011, 02:59:19 PM

Quote from: KuroiKetsunoHana on March 18, 2011, 02:56:45 PM
starbucks is really pointless.  while anything downtown closing is a bad thing, starbucks is among what we can most afford to lose.

having lived in places without a starbucks, I have to tell you that it sucks.  Independent coffee shops have a tendency to focus more on the entertainment and ambiance and not have trained employees who actually know their barista craft.

Give me a starbucks any day of the week.

I have personally choked down enough poisonous gruel being misidentified as coffee over the years that I will never underestimate the good influence of the starbucks chain.

Hmm, I dunno. Its my experience that the good independents kicks Starbucks' butt any day of the week. They're really hit or miss there. Some locations know their stuff, but a lot are just awful & full of people who I would never call a "barista". They're basically one step away from flipping burgers at the golden arches.

Example: I was in the Five Points location last week, asked the gal to make me a "pour-over" coffee (this is really standard stuff & I've gotten them there before). She looked at me like I was crazy, asked her manager what it was. Manager goes ahead & tells me "Oh, we stopped doing those. The machined drip is just easier & quicker." I shit you not.

Anyways, I got a latte & asked myself why I continued to even come back there. Granted, their drip is consistently decent no matter which location you go (which is prob why they don't venture away from it). And if you like anything flavored besides coffee, you really can't go wrong. But I dont go to coffee shops to drink milk shakes.

But a lot of independents suck too. It really matters where you are. I honestly don't think we have any coffee shops here that are both real cafes AND have bonafide baristas working in them. Three Layers in pretty close & don't get me wrong, I love hanging out there, but they don't really do great coffee & you're pretty much getting machined drip whether you want it or not. It's more about food, cakes & the ambience.

Point is, if you go to a real "coffee city" (Portland, Seattle, San Fran, NYC, New Orleans, DC, all over Europe, etc), the independents smoke Starbucks. The only people that hit up the Starbucks in those areas are usually the tourists.

I actually have a bit of experience in the coffee cities.  I lived in Seattle and San Francisco and worked for a consortium that included corporate starbucks while I was in the Pacific Northwest.

Starbucks spread the gospel of well prepared coffee techniques, and without them as competition, the independents wouldnt have stepped up their game.

Personally I prefer lavazza and sometimes illy espresso beans, but my favorite roaster coffeehouse chain in the world is an outfit called tully's http://www.tullys.com/?ck=1 , which sadly hasnt reached the east coast yet.

I dislike the horrible coffee served up by the completely untrained and uninformed counter service people in most of the coffeehouses of the city.  If it werent for starbucks I would probably switch back to a constant source of l phenylalanine and dl choline.

Jungle Runners was doing some great coffee for a while, and Oscar from Condaxis is probably the most sophisticated coffee guy in the city, but outside of them its just starbucks for me.

All this sounds like the perfect opportunity for the right entrepreneur. 

Quote from: wsansewjs on March 18, 2011, 11:55:47 AM
Honestly. We need an unique store in Jacksonville like IKEA to actually DRAW people to Downtown. There are too many damn Office Deport, Walgreen, etc etc. Those business can build AROUND IKEA. I am desperate for IKEA to be in Jacksonville. It is a huge untouched market for IKEA to tap into it.

-Josh

The amazing thing is how many people have never been to or heard of IKEA. That's not a terrible idea though. I just wonder how they would handle parking.

Quote from: fieldafm on March 18, 2011, 12:19:21 PM
It's simple economics.. Jacksonville does not have the demographics to support an IKEA downtown, Town Center or any other commercial area.

I'm not sure why you say this.  IKEA's whole schtick is how cheap they are.  A thread on MJ not long ago asked people why they stayed in Jacksonville, and one of the overwhelming answers was that it is cheap.  Seems like a perfect match.

Back to the thread topic....went to the landing starbucks today at 4...5 people sitting and another 5 in line....clearly they are hurting for customers

Quote from: cline on March 18, 2011, 10:50:17 AM
Downtown is toast.  Southside/Tinsletown/Town Center is the new downtown.  At least that's what 95% of the population thinks.

This fact alone tells us that building permits are handed out like candy by our "leaders"..and now look what happened....all of those wonderful land and building deals for the big boys and now we have no downtown...our city is'nt empty...it's not stagnant..we just allowed the money to get in the way of thoughful development...think of all of those office jobs off of JTB being downtown...would'nt that be nice?

I personally think it's completely sad that the one Starbucks in a downtown of a major city is closing because it can't do any business.

Some people have said that the parking is an issue.  It's a friggin walk up across from like 5 large office buildings!!

Some people have said that the construction on Laura caused it to close.  It's a friggin walk up across from like 5 major office buildings and the construction is now donw!!

Some people have had the idea to tear down the Landing and build a parking garage on its site.  I will not even comment to that.

Anyway, 50,000 workers and 3,000 residents nearby cannot support one Starbucks?  We're talking a company that literally does not even need to advertise (which is why it does not advertise).  Sure Starbucks opened too many locations all around years ago and has had to downsize, but our downtown should easily support 2 Starbucks!

I tell you, Jacksonville really is poor town.  POOR town.  Independents are more expensive than Starbucks, though, so where the hell does everyone get coffee?????  There's an independent upscale coffee shop in my office building that's like 2-3x as expensive as Starbucks.

Reading the FTU comments on this about how it closed because of lack of parking really made me think about the intelligence level going on down there.  Aside from the unfortunate strip center locations where Starbucks still tries desperately to make the store open up with outdoor seating and the like, Starbucks prefers urban walk-up locations.  Duh (hits head).

I mean, really, there are 4 Starbucks within walking distance of me (a few blocks or less) in addition to local coffee shops like Octane (which also serves wine/liquors at night), and all are open til at least Midnight and all are crowded at every hour they are open.  Starbucks is like one of those magical places where high-level business talk/decisions are made, students are doing homework, and people of every age, ethnicity, and religion convene.  I guess Jacksonville is not even ready for one of these kinds of stores.

Quote from: BridgeTroll on March 18, 2011, 05:48:45 PM

Quote from: stephendare on March 18, 2011, 04:58:14 PM

Quote from: peestandingup on March 18, 2011, 04:37:44 PM

Quote from: stephendare on March 18, 2011, 02:59:19 PM

Quote from: KuroiKetsunoHana on March 18, 2011, 02:56:45 PM
starbucks is really pointless.  while anything downtown closing is a bad thing, starbucks is among what we can most afford to lose.

having lived in places without a starbucks, I have to tell you that it sucks.  Independent coffee shops have a tendency to focus more on the entertainment and ambiance and not have trained employees who actually know their barista craft.

Give me a starbucks any day of the week.

I have personally choked down enough poisonous gruel being misidentified as coffee over the years that I will never underestimate the good influence of the starbucks chain.

Hmm, I dunno. Its my experience that the good independents kicks Starbucks' butt any day of the week. They're really hit or miss there. Some locations know their stuff, but a lot are just awful & full of people who I would never call a "barista". They're basically one step away from flipping burgers at the golden arches.

Example: I was in the Five Points location last week, asked the gal to make me a "pour-over" coffee (this is really standard stuff & I've gotten them there before). She looked at me like I was crazy, asked her manager what it was. Manager goes ahead & tells me "Oh, we stopped doing those. The machined drip is just easier & quicker." I shit you not.

Anyways, I got a latte & asked myself why I continued to even come back there. Granted, their drip is consistently decent no matter which location you go (which is prob why they don't venture away from it). And if you like anything flavored besides coffee, you really can't go wrong. But I dont go to coffee shops to drink milk shakes.

But a lot of independents suck too. It really matters where you are. I honestly don't think we have any coffee shops here that are both real cafes AND have bonafide baristas working in them. Three Layers in pretty close & don't get me wrong, I love hanging out there, but they don't really do great coffee & you're pretty much getting machined drip whether you want it or not. It's more about food, cakes & the ambience.

Point is, if you go to a real "coffee city" (Portland, Seattle, San Fran, NYC, New Orleans, DC, all over Europe, etc), the independents smoke Starbucks. The only people that hit up the Starbucks in those areas are usually the tourists.

I actually have a bit of experience in the coffee cities.  I lived in Seattle and San Francisco and worked for a consortium that included corporate starbucks while I was in the Pacific Northwest.

Starbucks spread the gospel of well prepared coffee techniques, and without them as competition, the independents wouldnt have stepped up their game.

Personally I prefer lavazza and sometimes illy espresso beans, but my favorite roaster coffeehouse chain in the world is an outfit called tully's http://www.tullys.com/?ck=1 , which sadly hasnt reached the east coast yet.

I dislike the horrible coffee served up by the completely untrained and uninformed counter service people in most of the coffeehouses of the city.  If it werent for starbucks I would probably switch back to a constant source of l phenylalanine and dl choline.

Jungle Runners was doing some great coffee for a while, and Oscar from Condaxis is probably the most sophisticated coffee guy in the city, but outside of them its just starbucks for me.

All this sounds like the perfect opportunity for the right entrepreneur. 

I agree. ;D

I gotta believe that Toney Sleiman wouldn't be raising the rent on existing tenants (Twisted Martini, Starbucks) unless he is pretty damn sure that he can get that higher rent from someone else.

Java Junction was still in the Bank of America lobby last time I checked (my employer moved across the river in October).  It's owned by a very sweet Croatian woman who bought the business two years ago.  I rarely drink espresso drinks, but the coffee she served was 10x better than Starbucks.  She also baked scones that I swear are addictive as crack, but you have to get them early as they tend to sell out before 9:00.

^^^Starbucks is as good a tenant as a shopping center can ask for.  In a center like the Landing where any retailers even considering it know the challenges and know that there are a lot of underlying issues, raising the rent seems like a very bold move.  Clearly no national retailers want to be there.

As it stands, there is no way in hell the Landing is going to attract any upscale tenants.  When major cities with much larger, much more thriving downtowns have serious issues attracting upscale retailers, fitness clubs, restaurants, bars, and service providers, downtown Jacksonville is not even on the radar.

The best the Landing can hope for right now are independent retailers and middle of the line or slightly less than middle of the line national retailers (if that, I don't think any national retailers want to even consider it no matter how low the rents right now).  Raising the rents seems absurd.

I'd like to get my hands on the financials and the current rent roll.  What are the remaining terms?  What are the various rents right now?  Is the center cash flowing or is it bleeding money?  How is the CAM being handled financially with so few tenants who can afford to pay the kind of CAM necessary in that center (I mean large space is taken up by food court, gallery space, and museum...the center has to be maintained, which means it can be assumed that that falls as a recoverable expense on a few retailers and restaurants...are they paying aggregate a 100% fixed CAM divied up in pro rata shares?).

The dynamics of this center are very interesting...Sleiman must be using corporate revenue to bolster the center at this point.

***Also, "rents increasing" is completely relative.  Every tenant in the Landing pays different rents with different stipulations.  Some may increase base rent at varying intervals, some may be %sales volume based, some may step up annually or a certain amount after 5 years, etc etc.  There's no way any of us know that information unless someone on here works for Sleiman and is divulging confidential info (and what's the vacany like in there?).

Quote from: peestandingup on March 18, 2011, 04:37:44 PM

Quote from: stephendare on March 18, 2011, 02:59:19 PM

Quote from: KuroiKetsunoHana on March 18, 2011, 02:56:45 PM
starbucks is really pointless.  while anything downtown closing is a bad thing, starbucks is among what we can most afford to lose.

having lived in places without a starbucks, I have to tell you that it sucks.  Independent coffee shops have a tendency to focus more on the entertainment and ambiance and not have trained employees who actually know their barista craft.

Give me a starbucks any day of the week.

I have personally choked down enough poisonous gruel being misidentified as coffee over the years that I will never underestimate the good influence of the starbucks chain.

Hmm, I dunno. Its my experience that the good independents kicks Starbucks' butt any day of the week. They're really hit or miss there. Some locations know their stuff, but a lot are just awful & full of people who I would never call a "barista". They're basically one step away from flipping burgers at the golden arches.

Example: I was in the Five Points location last week, asked the gal to make me a "pour-over" coffee (this is really standard stuff & I've gotten them there before). She looked at me like I was crazy, asked her manager what it was. Manager goes ahead & tells me "Oh, we stopped doing those. The machined drip is just easier & quicker." I shit you not.

Anyways, I got a latte & asked myself why I continued to even come back there. Granted, their drip is consistently decent no matter which location you go (which is prob why they don't venture away from it). And if you like anything flavored besides coffee, you really can't go wrong. But I dont go to coffee shops to drink milk shakes.

But a lot of independents suck too. It really matters where you are. I honestly don't think we have any coffee shops here that are both real cafes AND have bonafide baristas working in them. Three Layers in pretty close & don't get me wrong, I love hanging out there, but they don't really do great coffee & you're pretty much getting machined drip whether you want it or not. It's more about food, cakes & the ambience.

Point is, if you go to a real "coffee city" (Portland, Seattle, San Fran, NYC, New Orleans, DC, all over Europe, etc), the independents smoke Starbucks. The only people that hit up the Starbucks in those areas are usually the tourists.

Jacksonville is a real coffee city Martin Coffee roasting here since 1957 and Condaxis 1958 both are excellent and you can get their coffees at many places around town and they roast about 99.99% of anything with a local label.  Martin will even give barista lessons. I just wish Martin would open that original coffee shop on bay next to where Mark's is now.
(http://www.martincoffee.com/images/sized/images/uploads/art_side_pic1-208x145.jpg)

Quote from: urbanlibertarian on March 18, 2011, 10:08:35 PM
I gotta believe that Toney Sleiman wouldn't be raising the rent on existing tenants (Twisted Martini, Starbucks) unless he is pretty damn sure that he can get that higher rent from someone else.

well it sure didn't work with Twisted....when they walked, Sleiman begged the owners of Benny's/Vito's to help out....they supposedly agreed to open an Irish Pub in the space...that was 8 months ago

Also, Stephen, maybe there aren't 50,000 workers downtown (that would include Northbank and Southbank), but I can promise you that even with all of the vacancy there are more than 10,000 daytime workers.

Potential walking distance buildings:

1 Independent Square
Bank of America
Suntrust
Life of the South
CSX
150 Water St
Enterprise Center
AT&T
BB&T
Hyatt Hotel
Omni Hotel
City Hall Annex

Even with the vacancies, there is a daytime population of at least 10,000 within a short walking distance of the Landing and there are almost 1,400 hotel rooms and ~500 residents within walking distance, too.  Not to mention the small but steady stream of tourists.  At least a third of the office population drinks coffee daily.  Can we say that there is a potential daily base of 650 office workers who should be walking into Starbucks each day to purchase some joe?  That works out to 50/hour for 13 hours a day (7 am to 8 pm).  650 customers a day, $2 average purchase (low end for Starbucks I would think), open 360 days, there is $468,000 revenue a year.  Let's say that with CAM and other pass throughs and actual rent, $25-30/SF is not out of the ordinary and perhaps even a little high for the market, probably 1,000 SF of space and they are paying a measly $25,000-30,000/year in rent leaving about $440,000 to cover other expenses (and Starbucks has relatively high margins) and pay a few baristas.

Frankly I am shocked that that location could not even do that, let alone higher.

Now retailers will say that they are reluctant to enter the Atlanta market because performance there does not equal other large metros in the NE and in CA and spending habits aren't as strong.  I wonder what retailers say about the Jacksonville market (not that it's highly on the radar, but with SJTC and all I'm sure talks have been had).  It does not bode well that Starbucks cannot even survive in our downtown.  Other retailers will take notice.  Retail center investors will take notice.  There will be shockwaves with this.  Regency Centers is right across the street...I wonder what they have to say.

Quote from: simms3 on March 18, 2011, 10:49:00 PM
As it stands, there is no way in hell the Landing is going to attract any upscale tenants.  When major cities with much larger, much more thriving downtowns have serious issues attracting upscale retailers, fitness clubs, restaurants, bars, and service providers, downtown Jacksonville is not even on the radar.

correct...and not just because of downtown's issues.

face it...Sleiman is running the place into the ground...heck, he won't even paint the exterior...plus, there aren't many upcale establishments at any Sleiman shopping center around town...it isn't his specialty.

of course if his chosen leader, Mr. Hogan, takes over at City Hall I'm sure everything will magically be awesome   ;)

2 Things (disclosure: I am the opposite of a coffee conoisseur):

1) Jacksonville is not a coffee town (no SE city is)

2) Independent coffee shops are hit or miss, but I have never even heard of a city where independent coffee shops exist without Starbucks.  Starbucks is consistent and does up the competition ante.  Starbucks may have bitter beans on average, but it's not poor quality, offers an experience that coffee consumers and people in general want, and offers a price point that most people who purchase coffee by the cup are willing to afford.

So both the landing and 11E locations are closing?

Quote from: simms3 on March 18, 2011, 11:16:26 PM
Also, Stephen, maybe there aren't 50,000 workers downtown (that would include Northbank and Southbank), but I can promise you that even with all of the vacancy there are more than 10,000 daytime workers.

Potential walking distance buildings:

1 Independent Square
Bank of America
Suntrust
Life of the South
CSX
150 Water St
Enterprise Center
AT&T
BB&T
Hyatt Hotel
Omni Hotel
City Hall Annex

Even with the vacancies, there is a daytime population of at least 10,000 within a short walking distance of the Landing and there are almost 1,400 hotel rooms and ~500 residents within walking distance, too.  Not to mention the small but steady stream of tourists.  At least a third of the office population drinks coffee daily.  Can we say that there is a potential daily base of 650 office workers who should be walking into Starbucks each day to purchase some joe?  That works out to 50/hour for 13 hours a day (7 am to 8 pm).  650 customers a day, $2 average purchase (low end for Starbucks I would think), open 360 days, there is $468,000 revenue a year.  Let's say that with CAM and other pass throughs and actual rent, $25-30/SF is not out of the ordinary and perhaps even a little high for the market, probably 1,000 SF of space and they are paying a measly $25,000-30,000/year in rent leaving about $440,000 to cover other expenses (and Starbucks has relatively high margins) and pay a few baristas.

Frankly I am shocked that that location could not even do that, let alone higher.

Now retailers will say that they are reluctant to enter the Atlanta market because performance there does not equal other large metros in the NE and in CA and spending habits aren't as strong.  I wonder what retailers say about the Jacksonville market (not that it's highly on the radar, but with SJTC and all I'm sure talks have been had).  It does not bode well that Starbucks cannot even survive in our downtown.  Other retailers will take notice.  Retail center investors will take notice.  There will be shockwaves with this.  Regency Centers is right across the street...I wonder what they have to say.

Steady stream of tourist?...you're so funny...

Quote from: JeffreyS on March 18, 2011, 11:13:08 PM

Quote from: peestandingup on March 18, 2011, 04:37:44 PM

Quote from: stephendare on March 18, 2011, 02:59:19 PM

Quote from: KuroiKetsunoHana on March 18, 2011, 02:56:45 PM
starbucks is really pointless.  while anything downtown closing is a bad thing, starbucks is among what we can most afford to lose.

having lived in places without a starbucks, I have to tell you that it sucks.  Independent coffee shops have a tendency to focus more on the entertainment and ambiance and not have trained employees who actually know their barista craft.

Give me a starbucks any day of the week.

I have personally choked down enough poisonous gruel being misidentified as coffee over the years that I will never underestimate the good influence of the starbucks chain.

Hmm, I dunno. Its my experience that the good independents kicks Starbucks' butt any day of the week. They're really hit or miss there. Some locations know their stuff, but a lot are just awful & full of people who I would never call a "barista". They're basically one step away from flipping burgers at the golden arches.

Example: I was in the Five Points location last week, asked the gal to make me a "pour-over" coffee (this is really standard stuff & I've gotten them there before). She looked at me like I was crazy, asked her manager what it was. Manager goes ahead & tells me "Oh, we stopped doing those. The machined drip is just easier & quicker." I shit you not.

Anyways, I got a latte & asked myself why I continued to even come back there. Granted, their drip is consistently decent no matter which location you go (which is prob why they don't venture away from it). And if you like anything flavored besides coffee, you really can't go wrong. But I dont go to coffee shops to drink milk shakes.

But a lot of independents suck too. It really matters where you are. I honestly don't think we have any coffee shops here that are both real cafes AND have bonafide baristas working in them. Three Layers in pretty close & don't get me wrong, I love hanging out there, but they don't really do great coffee & you're pretty much getting machined drip whether you want it or not. It's more about food, cakes & the ambience.

Point is, if you go to a real "coffee city" (Portland, Seattle, San Fran, NYC, New Orleans, DC, all over Europe, etc), the independents smoke Starbucks. The only people that hit up the Starbucks in those areas are usually the tourists.

Jacksonville is a real coffee city Martin Coffee roasting here since 1957 and Condaxis 1958 both are excellent and you can get their coffees at many places around town and they roast about 99.99% of anything with a local label.  Martin will even give barista lessons. I just wish Martin would open that original coffee shop on bay next to where Mark's is now.
(http://www.martincoffee.com/images/sized/images/uploads/art_side_pic1-208x145.jpg)

I know about those guys & sure appreciate that they're here. They do awesome roasting for sure. But to be fair, every city has coffee roasters (most of them who have been in the biz for decades). I just meant that there's hardly any real coffee culture here as far as coffee houses & baristas go. I've noticed it has gotten better in just the few years I've lived here though, but I still wouldn't call it a coffee city just yet.

On the roasters side, I've asked the people at Condaxis if they've ever thought about adding a full service "serving room" to their establishment. A lot of roasters are starting to do that. Think of it sorta like Bold City Brewery does with their tasting room. Here's one that does just that in little tiny Americus Georgia that I sometimes get mail order beans from: http://www.facebook.com/CafeCampesino

They said they've thought about it pretty seriously, but still haven't really been committed to it for one reason or another.

The irony is that you smell coffee all day in this city (a la Maxwell House).........  :-\

Quote from: simms3 on March 18, 2011, 11:25:04 PM
2 Things (disclosure: I am the opposite of a coffee conoisseur):

1) Jacksonville is not a coffee town (no SE city is)

2) Independent coffee shops are hit or miss, but I have never even heard of a city where independent coffee shops exist without Starbucks.  Starbucks is consistent and does up the competition ante.  Starbucks may have bitter beans on average, but it's not poor quality, offers an experience that coffee consumers and people in general want, and offers a price point that most people who purchase coffee by the cup are willing to afford.

I never quite understood how people can drink down a hot cup of coffee on a hot, humid summer day.  I grew up enjoying hot cocoa and other hot beverages in the dead of winter, but didn't fancy drinking hot liquids when the temperature is in the upper 80s...

Quote from: Jaxson on March 19, 2011, 11:36:06 AM
I never quite understood how people can drink down a hot cup of coffee on a hot, humid summer day. 

That's why they sell frappacinos.

Besides, many people want their hot cup of coffee in the morning no matter what the weather forecast is for the day.

Wishful thinking...but I want a Peet's Coffee!

QuoteSteady stream of tourist?...you're so funny...

The state of downtown is not good at all.  But you should spend some time at the Landing.  A lot of patrons are from out of town.

Quote from: blizz01 on March 19, 2011, 10:10:11 AM
The irony is that you smell coffee all day in this city (a la Maxwell House).........  :-\

Haha...yes, good point!

Quote from: tufsu1 on March 18, 2011, 11:34:42 AM
and to add to what fieldafm said....I went down there Tuesday night around 9pm...Hooters had a line out the door!

Yes, so the few remaining landing tenants are fleeing right and left because it is just TOO successful...got it.

Geez, I can't believe we failed to see that obvious cause all this time! There was TOO MUCH traffic!

Perhaps Starbucks should be copying Hooters' business model?

A slight variation?

Fishnet stockings and roller skates?

Quote from: finehoe on March 19, 2011, 12:41:08 PM

Quote from: Jaxson on March 19, 2011, 11:36:06 AM
I never quite understood how people can drink down a hot cup of coffee on a hot, humid summer day.  

That's why they sell frappacinos.

Besides, many people want their hot cup of coffee in the morning no matter what the weather forecast is for the day.

I know about the Fraps and how Starbucks has expanded their menu and I know about how people must have their coffee fix no matter how hot it is outside, I still do not understand because it would be akin to drinking a slushie in a blinding snowstorm.  Oh, well.  Not my cup of...er...coffee.

Quote from: buckethead on March 21, 2011, 06:01:24 PM
Perhaps Starbucks should be copying Hooters' business model?

A slight variation?

Fishnet stockings and roller skates?

Been done (sorta).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svJrpphBhpE

When I saw this was in south TX, I wasn't surprised (I've lived there).

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on March 21, 2011, 05:49:17 PM

Quote from: tufsu1 on March 18, 2011, 11:34:42 AM
and to add to what fieldafm said....I went down there Tuesday night around 9pm...Hooters had a line out the door!

Yes, so the few remaining landing tenants are fleeing right and left because it is just TOO successful...got it.

Geez, I can't believe we failed to see that obvious cause all this time! There was TOO MUCH traffic!

geez...you were gone from this site for several months...and, oddly, I hardly missed you

Quote from: tufsu1 on March 21, 2011, 07:23:54 PM

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on March 21, 2011, 05:49:17 PM

Quote from: tufsu1 on March 18, 2011, 11:34:42 AM
and to add to what fieldafm said....I went down there Tuesday night around 9pm...Hooters had a line out the door!

Yes, so the few remaining landing tenants are fleeing right and left because it is just TOO successful...got it.

Geez, I can't believe we failed to see that obvious cause all this time! There was TOO MUCH traffic!

geez...you were gone from this site for several months...and, oddly, I hardly missed you

The feeling was mutual, but someone has to keep it real around here!

I'd love to see Maxwellhouse open a shop in the landing...why not..we smell their stuff all day..why not put in an upscale coffee shop with real baristas

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on March 21, 2011, 07:58:05 PM

Quote from: tufsu1 on March 21, 2011, 07:23:54 PM

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on March 21, 2011, 05:49:17 PM

Quote from: tufsu1 on March 18, 2011, 11:34:42 AM
and to add to what fieldafm said....I went down there Tuesday night around 9pm...Hooters had a line out the door!

Yes, so the few remaining landing tenants are fleeing right and left because it is just TOO successful...got it.

Geez, I can't believe we failed to see that obvious cause all this time! There was TOO MUCH traffic!

geez...you were gone from this site for several months...and, oddly, I hardly missed you

The feeling was mutual, but someone has to keep it real around here!

I certainly missed Chris!  Welcome back!

Quote from: 77danj7 on March 19, 2011, 05:27:40 PM
Wishful thinking...but I want a Peet's Coffee!

Too progressive for Jacksonville.  Remember that Starbucks cannot even survive in our central business district and Caribou Coffee hasn't invaded yet to compete on the chain level with Starbucks.

Peets coffee is progressive?

Had I known, I would never have tried it.

Darn shame too, because it's quite tasty. :)

Since we're throwing out coffee wishes:  http://counterculturecoffee.com/

Now that SBUX is opening up 1500 new stores over the next 5 years I wonder if Downtown will get one.

I have always thought that a SBUX with a drive thru would do great on a site between State and Union streets.  The site that 7-11 opened on Main St would have been perfect.

Starbucks blows....

Just sayin'

Quote from: ben says on December 07, 2012, 09:24:47 PM
Starbucks blows....

Just sayin'

Sure they do...that is why they are so successful. 

Actually, I prefer local coffee houses (when they are a good option), but the point of my post was really more about the high traffic State-Union corridor.  I bet it would support a SBUX better than almost any other location in downtown.

Southbank and Brooklyn are ideal, as is anywhere between Adams, Duval, Laura and Broad. Government centers are perfect for Starbucks, and late night legal eagles would celebrate it.