Metro Jacksonville

Do they care? They seem to think that America is #1, but they are delusional and need to be educated on how far behind we are. Here is Fareed Zakaria, who starts off his piece by saying:

QuoteI am an American, not by accident of birth but by choice. I voted with my feet and became an American because I love this country and think it is exceptional. But when I look at the world today and the strong winds of technological change and global competition, it makes me nervous. Perhaps most unsettling is the fact that while these forces gather strength, Americans seem unable to grasp the magnitude of the challenges that face us. Despite the hyped talk of China's rise, most Americans operate on the assumption that the U.S. is still No. 1.

Later he explains how far behind we are:

QuoteThe following rankings come from various lists, but they all tell the same story.
According to the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD), our 15-year-olds rank 17th in the world in science and 25th in math. We rank 12th among developed countries in college graduation (down from No. 1 for decades).
We come in 79th in elementary-school enrollment.

Our infrastructure is ranked 23rd in the world, well behind that of every other major advanced economy.

American health numbers are stunning for a rich country: based on studies by the OECD and the World Health Organization, we're 27th in life expectancy, 18th in diabetes and first in obesity. Only a few decades ago, the U.S. stood tall in such rankings. No more.

There are some areas in which we are still clearly No. 1, but they're not ones we usually brag about. We have the most guns. We have the most crime among rich countries. And, of course, we have by far the largest amount of debt in the world.

Then he gives us plenty to think about, but probably most surprising, in our so-called land of opportunity for the average citizen, is that our social mobility opportunity ( being able to climb the economic ladder) is far behind European countries, in fact it is in 19th place!!:

QuoteA crucial aspect of beginning to turn things around would be for the U.S. to make an honest accounting of where it stands and what it can learn from other countries. This kind of benchmarking is common among businesses but is sacrilege for the country as a whole. Any politician who dares suggest that the U.S. can learn from - let alone copy - other countries is likely to be denounced instantly. If someone points out that Europe gets better health care at half the cost, that's dangerously socialist thinking.
If a business leader notes that tax rates in much of the industrialized world are lower and that there are far fewer loopholes than in the U.S., he is brushed aside as trying to impoverish American workers.

If a commentator says - correctly - that social mobility from one generation to the next is greater in many European nations than in the U.S., he is laughed at. Yet several studies, the most recent from the OECD last year, have found that the average American has a much lower chance of moving out of his parents' income bracket than do people in places like Denmark, Sweden, Germany and Canada.

And it's not just politicians and business leaders. It's all of us. Americans simply don't care much, know much or want to learn much about the outside world. We think of America as a globalized society because it has been at the center of the forces of globalization. But actually, the American economy is quite insular; exports account for only about 10% of it. Compare that with the many European countries where half the economy is trade-related, and you can understand why those societies seem more geared to international standards and competition. And that's the key to a competitive future for the U.S. If Olson is right in saying successful societies get sclerotic, the solution is to stay flexible. That means being able to start and shut down companies and hire and fire people. But it also means having a government that can help build out new technologies and infrastructure, that invests in the future and that can eliminate programs that stop working.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/08599205661000

sadly Faye, many closed-minded people are not likely to listen to a guy with a name like Fareed Zakaria talk about America

I think this is the most important point for our future, including our infrastructure:

Why the Social Elevator Stalls

QuoteThe United States sells itself as the land where women and men can rise from humble origins to the highest offices in the land. Americans describe the triumphs of Abraham Lincoln, the president who was born in a log cabin, and Bill Clinton, the president who was born in a trailer park.

While the United States embraces these great examples, the truth is that even modest, upward social mobility in the United States is rare and growing rarer. In short, the American dream is, in fact, a dream.

This is the finding of a recent study by the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD). Comparing intergenerational earning within the Member States of the OECD, Northern European social democracies (Denmark, Norway and Finland), Australia and Canada are significantly more meritocratic societies. There, individuals' wages are not strongly related to those of their parents. At the opposite end of the social mobility scale is Italy, Great Britain, and the United States. In these countries, the children of the poor are far more likely to remain poor while the children of the rich are far more likely to stay rich.

QuoteOf course, in any of these countries, it's most convenient to be born to wealth if you seek wealth yourself. Everything follows from it: a better social environment, better schools, better jobs, better wages, and better prospects for your own children.

But while we have long believed that the true meritocratic states, those where one could climb the social ladder based on merit and talent, were countries where individual freedom and small government were prevalent, this study shows that it is actually, quite clearly, the opposite.

For merit to pay off, the state must intervene.

This is all so counter to what Conservatives have been preaching about having government get out of the way, to solve our problems.....

QuoteThe lack of equal opportunities also affects the motivation and level of commitment of citizens, which in turn decreases the labor productivity, and negatively affects the growth potential of an economy -- not to mention heavy social price generated by unequal opportunities.

Economic and social marginalization leads to violence and insecurity which threaten the core of a nation: the ability to live altogether in the same country, sharing the same American Dream.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rabah-ghezali/what-american-dream-why-t_b_694612.html

People who are struggling to keep their heads above water cannot think big, and will oppose any innovation to infrastructure. It creates a third world environment. Hence Arianna's Third World America book.

Quote from: tufsu1 on March 06, 2011, 09:31:45 PM
sadly Faye, many closed-minded people are not likely to listen to a guy with a name like Fareed Zakaria talk about America

tufsu1, I agree, and what is soooo sad is that it's precisely the immigrants like Fareed, Arianna and myself that are working so hard to try to help restore the conditions that America used to be able to offer its citizens, while other Americans (many of those who were accidentally born in America) aren't too worried about America's decline, or prefer to remain blissfully ignorant of it.

I know I've beat this to death, but COLOMBIA! We are so far behind Colombia's mass transit infrastructure that we can't even find their shadow. Brasil? Shit they are building a high speed railroad from Rio to Sao Paulo, as well as about 5,000 more miles elsewhere in the country. Expect Brasilia to be next. Colombia is building the $12 Billion (us) dollar Ferrocarril Carbonifero a new cut-off between Bogota and the Atlantic coast.



OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: tufsu1 on March 06, 2011, 09:31:45 PM
sadly Faye, many closed-minded people are not likely to listen to a guy with a name like Fareed Zakaria talk about America

You are right there...if our president were named john doe i maybe he'd be a little better off...conservatives are the first to condemn someone based on thier name.

 ::)

QuoteFor merit to pay off, the state must intervene.

Really? ::)

Quote from: FayeforCure on March 06, 2011, 09:41:23 PM

Quote from: tufsu1 on March 06, 2011, 09:31:45 PM
sadly Faye, many closed-minded people are not likely to listen to a guy with a name like Fareed Zakaria talk about America

tufsu1, I agree, and what is soooo sad is that it's precisely the immigrants like Fareed, Arianna and myself that are working so hard to try to help restore the conditions that America used to be able to offer its citizens, while other Americans (many of those who were accidentally born in America) aren't too worried about America's decline, or prefer to remain blissfully ignorant of it.

and people wonder why most european countries are kicking out immigrants LOL!

If the conservative american ideas were put in place a hundred years ago most of you guys out there would still be in europe or wherever...conservatives love the idea of a free country but only for them...it's the conservative base that keep embarrassing the rest of the country...the world laughs at us because of them...

No doubt that we have gotten fat and happy.  Figuratively and literally.

Not only is our infrastructure aging, but we keep replacing it with the same old technology.  We have seen very few technological advances in the last 20 years.  And it is not just the roads and bridges that people see everyday.  I am just as concerned with our outdated methods of treating drinking water, wastewater and stormwater.  I've been practicing as a civil engineer for 20 years and we have been designing these systems the same way since I graduated.  Part of the problem is that our regulatory system allows very little innovation.  We are penalized for trying new concepts and rewarded for sticking with the 'tried and true'.

Quote from: Garden guy on March 07, 2011, 07:06:30 AM
If the conservative american ideas were put in place a hundred years ago most of you guys out there would still be in europe or wherever...conservatives love the idea of a free country but only for them...it's the conservative base that keep embarrassing the rest of the country...the world laughs at us because of them...

I guess my subtly was lost on you GG- read international papers more.

QuotePart of the problem is that our regulatory system allows very little innovation.  We are penalized for trying new concepts and rewarded for sticking with the 'tried and true'.

Your last two sentences seem to say that the "fault" for this aging infrastructure should be lain at the feet of both conservatives and liberals... or more precisely ALL Americans. Hmmm....

Quote from: uptowngirl on March 07, 2011, 07:15:23 AM

Quote from: Garden guy on March 07, 2011, 07:06:30 AM
If the conservative american ideas were put in place a hundred years ago most of you guys out there would still be in europe or wherever...conservatives love the idea of a free country but only for them...it's the conservative base that keep embarrassing the rest of the country...the world laughs at us because of them...

I guess my subtly was lost on you GG- read international papers more.

I guess it was'nt and don't be so rude lady...

Have you noticed in the last at least 80 years that the conservatives values of past has shifted to the liberal values today? This means the conservative values today will be shifted tomorrow in the American politic.

This tells me that it is not the value themselves, but the people on the conservative side have an attitude like that to shake a ruckus up and keep slamming broken-end of rakes up everyone's asses.

-Josh

I think you could point the finger and at the Neo cons and Libs on this one.

Quote from: BridgeTroll on March 07, 2011, 07:19:23 AM

QuotePart of the problem is that our regulatory system allows very little innovation.  We are penalized for trying new concepts and rewarded for sticking with the 'tried and true'.

Your last two sentences seem to say that the "fault" for this aging infrastructure should be lain at the feet of both conservatives and liberals... or more precisely ALL Americans. Hmmm....

Emphatically, yes, we are ALL responsible.  What I'm dealing with is not a political issue - although each side will claim the other is responsible.  My issue is that we have gotten so used to doing things a certain way that we no longer evaluate all options when making decisions.  We do things simply because "that is the way we've always done them here".  The "if it ain't broke, don't fix it mentality" is the problem.

This issue may be better explained by generational theories than political ideologies.  I suspect (and hope) that we are moving back into an age of innovation and realization of the importance of investing in our infrastructure.  BUT the infrastructure will look completely different than what we have been doing before.  At least, I hope so.

Agreed Doug...  my point was more for Faye and her choice of thread title...

QuoteDo Conservatives know that America ranks 23rd in the World for Infrastructure?

I feel that it is kind of funny how (and I am in no way just pointing to Republicans), but the extreme conservative are always cutting education, but a truly informed society would in no way be so blinded by the rights arguments.  Keep em stupid and they will have nothing to fear. 

Quote from: jcjohnpaint on March 07, 2011, 10:37:26 AM
I feel that it is kind of funny how (and I am in no way just pointing to Republicans), but the extreme conservative are always cutting education, but a truly informed society would in no way be so blinded by the rights arguments.  Keep em stupid and they will have nothing to fear. 

In that respect, I would prefer for the state to cut our education budget to zero, reduce our taxes accordingly and let us decide how to spend the money educating our children at a local level.  It really doesn't matter how much more or less they fund our system, the problem is the system they created and are enforcing statewide.  Until we fix the system, the money is just being wasted.  The most effective change happens at the local level.

Sorry for being so completely off-topic.

Quote from: BridgeTroll on March 07, 2011, 07:19:23 AM

QuotePart of the problem is that our regulatory system allows very little innovation.  We are penalized for trying new concepts and rewarded for sticking with the 'tried and true'.

Your last two sentences seem to say that the "fault" for this aging infrastructure should be lain at the feet of both conservatives and liberals... or more precisely ALL Americans. Hmmm....

Well, it would definitely be a major conservative problem, considering that conservatives do everything in their power to deny changes in our environment, whether it's climate change ( which they deny is accellerated and man-made) or the inevitability of oil shortages that would require us to move to alternatives sooner rather than later.

Besides we all know how conservatives hate taxes and spending, without which major improvements in infrastructure are simply impossible.

So YES, primarily it IS a conservative problem. What governors again, were the ones turning down the HRS monies? What........, they were all conservative?

How about Democratic governors, did any of them turn down HSR money ? No, none?

Well, we couldn't be more clear than that!!!!

HEY JTA? WANNA BECOME THE STAR OF FLORIDA? GIVE MEDELLIN A CALL - ALWAYS HAPPY TO SHARE!

http://www.metrodemedellin.org.co/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=92&id_link=134&parent_link=113&Itemid=134&lang=en

Quote
The year 2008 marked the culmination of 20 continuous years of efforts devised to place the Metro Culture as the distinctive seal of the city's public transit system. This commitment was made evident through the variety and quantity of campaigns and programs undertaken by the company.


    * Educational Campaing
    * Trainig and Intruction
    * Other Campaigns

Educational Campaing

Metro de Medellin’s educational work is ongoing and the following activities were carried out in 2008:

•         Educational agents at the Itagüi and Niquia stations instructed 100,000 users on compliance with rules and regulations, appropriate use of handicap facilities and proper use of the “civica (i.e. good citizenship)” card.

•         Twenty educational agents gave instruction on how to comply with regulations pertaining to attention provided for special needs groups and regular passengers at the mezzanine and platform levels of our stations. In a joint effort with the  “Futuro para la Niñez” Corporation, 450,000 customers received instruction.

•         A public awareness campaign about proper use and care of elevators and electro mechanic platforms in stations was carried out, where 10 people with limited mobility from the “Amigos de los Limitados” Corporation participated.

•         Another public awareness campaign was carried out with 57,000 passenger on line J, who were transported for free as part of the “Instructive Operation with Users” program, which took place between February 23rd and March 1st .

•        Direct instruction was given to customers in the cabins and stations of the J and K lines.

•         Educational visits were given to instruct potential users from private Educational Institutions. Approximately 13,000 students from institutions such as Marymount, Colegio San Ignacio, Columbus School, Pinares, Colegio Alemán, Colegio Montessori, Colegio Alvernia, Gimnasio Los Alcázares, Colegio Colombo Francés received instruction.

•         350 train conductors from Metrosan, Barbosaâ€"Porcesito, Rápido San Cristóbal, Expreso Campo Valdés, and Castilla were educated on the customer service culture.

Teaching our children how choosing transit can make life better!

http://www.metrodemedellin.org.co/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=75&id_link=113&parent_link=0&Itemid=113&lang=en

Feeling sick? MEDELLIN!

http://medicaltourismmag.com/detail.php?Req=324&issue=16

Want a drink or maybe just want to play in the WATER? MEDELLIN!

http://www.iadb.org/en/news/news-releases/2009-02-27/medellin-will-complete-historic-river-clean-up-with-idb-financing,5137.html

I went looking for the 3rd world... and I found it when I arrived in MIAMI going north!

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: FayeforCure on March 07, 2011, 03:30:38 PM

Quote from: BridgeTroll on March 07, 2011, 07:19:23 AM

QuotePart of the problem is that our regulatory system allows very little innovation.  We are penalized for trying new concepts and rewarded for sticking with the 'tried and true'.

Your last two sentences seem to say that the "fault" for this aging infrastructure should be lain at the feet of both conservatives and liberals... or more precisely ALL Americans. Hmmm....

Well, it would definitely be a major conservative problem, considering that conservatives do everything in their power to deny changes in our environment, whether it's climate change ( which they deny is accellerated and man-made) or the inevitability of oil shortages that would require us to move to alternatives sooner rather than later.

Besides we all know how conservatives hate taxes and spending, without which major improvements in infrastructure are simply impossible.

So YES, primarily it IS a conservative problem. What governors again, were the ones turning down the HRS monies? What........, they were all conservative?

How about Democratic governors, did any of them turn down HSR money ? No, none?

Well, we couldn't be more clear than that!!!!

Conservatives do not hate spending unless it is on America or Americans. Iraq infrastructure they like spending on it so much they will Knock it down just to spend on it again.

Quote from: Ocklawaha on March 07, 2011, 04:16:07 PM
•         A public awareness campaign about proper use and care of elevators and electro mechanic platforms in stations was carried out, where 10 people with limited mobility from the “Amigos de los Limitados” Corporation participated.

•         Another public awareness campaign was carried out with 57,000 passenger on line J, who were transported for free as part of the “Instructive Operation with Users” program, which took place between February 23rd and March 1st .

•        Direct instruction was given to customers in the cabins and stations of the J and K lines.

•         Educational visits were given to instruct potential users from private Educational Institutions. Approximately 13,000 students from institutions such as Marymount, Colegio San Ignacio, Columbus School, Pinares, Colegio Alemán, Colegio Montessori, Colegio Alvernia, Gimnasio Los Alcázares, Colegio Colombo Francés received instruction.

•         350 train conductors from Metrosan, Barbosaâ€"Porcesito, Rápido San Cristóbal, Expreso Campo Valdés, and Castilla were educated on the customer service culture.


Teaching our children how choosing transit can make life better!

http://www.metrodemedellin.org.co/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=75&id_link=113&parent_link=0&Itemid=113&lang=en

Feeling sick? MEDELLIN!

http://medicaltourismmag.com/detail.php?Req=324&issue=16

Want a drink or maybe just want to play in the WATER? MEDELLIN!

http://www.iadb.org/en/news/news-releases/2009-02-27/medellin-will-complete-historic-river-clean-up-with-idb-financing,5137.html

I went looking for the 3rd world... and I found it when I arrived in MIAMI going north!

OCKLAWAHA

Thanks Ock!! Proud of my birth country ( though my parents are European, from the Netherlands)!!!


But unless we know the cause, there is no changing our trajectory in the US. When I first came to the US, the US was still a forward thinking country. Now, 31 years later, we are so regressive it isn't even funny!

King Scott was the perfect embodiement of regressive, irrational thinking when he turned down HSR monies. NO Democratic Florida Governor would have done that!!! Charlie Crist was a moderate Republican that doesn't exist anymore.

Here is another person who has noticed our 30 year decline..........the one dougskiles talks about too:

QuoteExcept for earmarked projects they can put their names on, most Republicans (and some Democrats) view public investment in anything that doesn't have a military purpose as anathema, un-American. In fact, without government subsidies and innovation funded by public monies, the U.S. economy would never have been as successful as it was.

Politicians, both the myopic and the malicious, together with their billionaire patrons, seek to do all they can to keep us on the dead-end path set for us by Ronald Reagan 30 years ago. Unless our smarter, more progressive leaders commit to vast sums for green investment and combine this public money with green policies, the economic deterioration plaguing us now will worsen, along with the environment.

Some will argue that now is not the time because the House of Representatives is in the hands of the most anti-environment, pro-oligarchy crew in more than a century. They will say the President isn't bold enough. Funny how our enemies never stop trying to accomplish their agenda because they are told it's impossible.  Do you suppose their unwillingness to surrender despite the odds is what has made them so successful?

Quote from: BridgeTroll on March 07, 2011, 06:42:57 AM
::)

QuoteFor merit to pay off, the state must intervene.

Really? ::)

Let me "splain" BT:

QuoteAll in all, the OECD report is an ugly reality check for a country that has historically seen itself as uniquely rewarding of talent; as a place free of the sorts of rigid social structures that led so many generations of immigrants to leave Old Europe.

And the goal of reducing barriers to social mobility isn't just a moral imperative, it's an economic necessity, the OECD notes.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/03/17/social-immobility-climbin_n_501788.html

This  chapter
assesses  recent  cross-country patterns  in  intergenerational  social mobility and
examines  the role  that public policies play  in affecting mobility.  Intergenerational
earning, wage and  educational mobility vary widely across OECD  countries.

QuoteThe presence of credit constraints could hold back investment in tertiary education for
able individuals from disadvantaged or low-income families and thereby be an obstacle to
upward social mobility. The design of student loan and support systems can help mitigate
these constraints. In countries where such funding is available to all students (so-called
universal/individual systems), the probability penalty for an individual from a lowereducated
family to achieve tertiary education is smaller compared with the penalty
observed in countries relying on other types of funding and loan systems (Figure 5.9). This
suggest that government-supported loan or grant systems may reduce students’
dependence on their families for financing their post-secondary studies and alleviate
financial constraints, thus promoting intergenerational social mobility.

http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/2/7/45002641.pdf

Hence state intervention is a must for meritocracy to flourish, so that low income families have the ability to send their kids up the economic ladder of a quality tertiairy education!!

Sadly most Americans cannot afford to go to school beyond publicly funded high school, and Republicans insist on continuing to cut Pell grants. Then they wonder this:]

QuoteMore than 40% of those Americans born in the bottom quintile remain stuck there as adults.

http://www.economist.com/node/15908469

Quote from: dougskiles on March 07, 2011, 09:41:08 AM
  I suspect (and hope) that we are moving back into an age of innovation and realization of the importance of investing in our infrastructure.  BUT the infrastructure will look completely different than what we have been doing before.  At least, I hope so.

Doug, here is some additional data behind the trend:

QuoteDespite substantial increases and important new projects under the Obama Administration, the federal government is still not spending as much on R&D as a percentage of GDP as it did in the 1950s. I would argue that it should be spending twice that level, which would be 6% of GDP.

http://www.globalpost.com/webblog/commerce/fareed-zakaria-restoring-the-american-dream

And in terms of business tax rates that Republicans keep wanting to cut ( Governor Walker created a budget crisis when he cut corporate taxes in Wisconsin):

QuoteThere are things the U.S. does well. Most new jobs in America are created by start-ups and small companies, so the ease of doing business is crucial â€" and there's good news there. The World Bank has a ranking of countries measured by the "ease of doing business," and the U.S. is No. 4. That's very good, but there's a catch. Those rankings are divided into several categories. In most, like "starting a business," the U.S. does well. But in one category it's only 61st in the world, and that is "paying taxes."

.......wow......just......wow......

The US has already made up its mind that everything we do is awesome & everyone else is stupid. And that we're gonna ride this suburban sprawled super-oil-reliant cluster fuck all the way down wide open.

Quote from: NotNow on March 07, 2011, 09:36:41 PM
.......wow......just......wow......

yep

Quote from: uptowngirl on March 08, 2011, 06:48:56 AM

Quote from: NotNow on March 07, 2011, 09:36:41 PM
.......wow......just......wow......

yep

No doubt.  Listening to Faye... either no democrats have ever been elected to any local, state, or federal government post higher than dog catcher... or... they inexplicably have done nothing while in office... OR... they are as complicit as the republicans in Faye's perceived world.

People who are not ideologues understand that it is option three that is the most true... and Faye's red-faced desk pounding and finger pointing does nothing.

Not to mention the complete disregard and lack of understanding of her host country as a whole. Since only immigrants like her are doing anything in America today, while all the natives sit around on their lazy dumb %$&*, I guess we should be grateful.  It is a little sad, as this is a really good topic for conversation, our infrastructure is getting old, but the title and first couple of posts completely turned me off. BTW I am neither Republican or Democrat, but ideologues just make me tune out.

Quote from: uptowngirl on March 08, 2011, 07:08:34 AM
Not to mention the complete disregard and lack of understanding of her host country as a whole. Since only immigrants like her are doing anything in America today, while all the natives sit around on their lazy dumb %$&*, I guess we should be grateful.  It is a little sad, as this is a really good topic for conversation, our infrastructure is getting old, but the title and first couple of posts completely turned me off. BTW I am neither Republican or Democrat, but ideologues just make me tune out.

Well, uptowngirl, I have found those that say they are neither Republican or Democrat.........or like someone on these boards who claims they are politically agnostic, will vote Republican (almost) every time.

Ock was a welcome exception when he made it clear he had not voted for King Scott.

People usually say they are "independent" because it immunizes them from the malfeasance of local Republican leaders.

Quote from: BridgeTroll on March 08, 2011, 07:01:41 AM

Quote from: uptowngirl on March 08, 2011, 06:48:56 AM

Quote from: NotNow on March 07, 2011, 09:36:41 PM
.......wow......just......wow......

yep

No doubt.  Listening to Faye... either no democrats have ever been elected to any local, state, or federal government post higher than dog catcher... or... they inexplicably have done nothing while in office... OR... they are as complicit as the republicans in Faye's perceived world.

People who are not ideologues understand that it is option three that is the most true... and Faye's red-faced desk pounding and finger pointing does nothing.

BT, there is that false equivalency again...........the notion that both parties are at fault, so I might as well continue voting Republican!!

Again, who are the Governors that turned down HSR monies for ideological reasons? Where they Democrat or Republican?

And lets see:

QuoteExcept for earmarked projects they can put their names on, most Republicans (and some Democrats) view public investment in anything that doesn't have a military purpose as anathema, un-American. In fact, without government subsidies and innovation funded by public monies, the U.S. economy would never have been as successful as it was.

But most of all:

Quotehow do public investment in infrastructure fit the Republican mantra of "ever lower taxes and less government"?

After all Scott killed HSR in Florida because he claimed "taxpayers would be on the hook"

Quote from: FayeforCure on March 08, 2011, 09:20:30 AM

Quote from: BridgeTroll on March 08, 2011, 07:01:41 AM

Quote from: uptowngirl on March 08, 2011, 06:48:56 AM

Quote from: NotNow on March 07, 2011, 09:36:41 PM
.......wow......just......wow......

yep

No doubt.  Listening to Faye... either no democrats have ever been elected to any local, state, or federal government post higher than dog catcher... or... they inexplicably have done nothing while in office... OR... they are as complicit as the republicans in Faye's perceived world.

People who are not ideologues understand that it is option three that is the most true... and Faye's red-faced desk pounding and finger pointing does nothing.

BT, there is that false equivalency again...........the notion that both parties are at fault, so I might as well continue voting Republican!!

Again, who are the Governors that turned down HSR monies for ideological reasons? Where they Democrat or Republican?

And lets see:

QuoteExcept for earmarked projects they can put their names on, most Republicans (and some Democrats) view public investment in anything that doesn't have a military purpose as anathema, un-American. In fact, without government subsidies and innovation funded by public monies, the U.S. economy would never have been as successful as it was.

But most of all:

Quotehow do public investment in infrastructure fit the Republican mantra of "ever lower taxes and less government"?

After all Scott killed HSR in Florida because he claimed "taxpayers would be on the hook"

There is no "false equivalency".

Quote from: FayeforCure on March 08, 2011, 09:12:40 AM

Quote from: uptowngirl on March 08, 2011, 07:08:34 AM
Not to mention the complete disregard and lack of understanding of her host country as a whole. Since only immigrants like her are doing anything in America today, while all the natives sit around on their lazy dumb %$&*, I guess we should be grateful.  It is a little sad, as this is a really good topic for conversation, our infrastructure is getting old, but the title and first couple of posts completely turned me off. BTW I am neither Republican or Democrat, but ideologues just make me tune out.

Well, uptowngirl, I have found those that say they are neither Republican or Democrat.........or like someone on these boards who claims they are politically agnostic, will vote Republican (almost) every time.

Ock was a welcome exception when he made it clear he had not voted for King Scott.

People usually say they are "independent" because it immunizes them from the malfeasance of local Republican leaders.

Wrong again. I did not vote for Scott, I did vote Democrat. I also am voting split on the elections coming up. I have campaigned for both democrat and republican candidates. Perhaps I am an exception to the rule, but I go by the views of the individual not what party they happen to be affiliated with. I also happen to be a true native American, and a member of the Cherokee Nation- so I must be a REAL slacker.

I have found that those that use a lot of name calling usually do so because they don't have a logical argument.

Quote from: NotNow on March 08, 2011, 05:43:49 PM
I have found that those that use a lot of name calling usually do so because they don't have a logical argument.

Yeah your response of

Quote.......wow......just......wow......

Is super filled with logic, just like King Scott's stock response

Quotetax-payers will be on the hook

was super-filled with logic, nevermind that it was a complete and utter lie, that set back Florida to the perpetual dark ages that the south is accustomed to.

Quote from: uptowngirl on March 08, 2011, 03:51:07 PM


Wrong again. I did not vote for Scott, I did vote Democrat. I also am voting split on the elections coming up. I have campaigned for both democrat and republican candidates. Perhaps I am an exception to the rule, but I go by the views of the individual not what party they happen to be affiliated with. I also happen to be a true native American, and a member of the Cherokee Nation- so I must be a REAL slacker.

So what distinguished the views of Scott vs Sink in your opinion?

I don't live in Duval, so I haven't been too involved in upcoming elections. Are there any viable Democrats or are there ONLY Republicans running as usual?

Good to hear you are involved as a member of the Cherokee nation. Not sure why you would refer to "slackers"

Just because America keeps thinking it's number 1, and (new) immigrants keep pointing out America is slipping?

Faye,  my statement of "wow" was in reference to your quotes and your apparent view that the Federal government should be spending trillions more than it already is, and that we should be taxed at a much higher rate than we are.  I am a little shocked when I read (often on this board) the statements of some that, to me at least, seem to contradict the form of government and the free and independent society that our country is (or at least was).  My beliefs are more strictly in line with the Constitution as written.  I believe in less Federal power and more control by the states.   The constant "teabagger", "King Scott" stuff just turns me off.  You are entitled to your opinion, I just have had enough of the vileness that permeats this site sometimes (I freely admit that I have succumbed to it myself, and I apologize).  I mean no disrespect, I would just like the factual information in the debate, that's all.

NN we all fall into it sometimes and some all the time.

Quote from: FayeforCure on March 08, 2011, 08:44:58 PM
I don't live in Duval, so I haven't been too involved in upcoming elections. Are there any viable Democrats or are there ONLY Republicans running as usual?

for Mayor, not really

Alvin Brown isn't bad but he can't win in the runoff....the best viable option for progressive voters is Audrey Moran...she draws significant support from Dems

Agree Tufsu, but there are some great people running for council seats that just happen to be democrats (similar to Audrey just happening to be a Republican). Voting straight party line just shows a lack of depth and intelligence. One reason why I get so frustrated when a good topic of discussion is brought up, but lost in all the Evil republican/Socialist Democrat name calling :-(

Quote from: uptowngirl on March 09, 2011, 07:32:41 AM
Agree Tufsu, but there are some great people running for council seats that just happen to be democrats (similar to Audrey just happening to be a Republican). Voting straight party line just shows a lack of depth and intelligence. One reason why I get so frustrated when a good topic of discussion is brought up, but lost in all the Evil republican/Socialist Democrat name calling :-(

You are right but i have never found a republican i could vote for and i don't see one showing up anytime soon....i find democrats are about "WE" and republicans are all about "I"...that's just me though.

Quote from: uptowngirl on March 09, 2011, 07:32:41 AM
Agree Tufsu, but there are some great people running for council seats that just happen to be democrats (similar to Audrey just happening to be a Republican). Voting straight party line just shows a lack of depth and intelligence. One reason why I get so frustrated when a good topic of discussion is brought up, but lost in all the Evil republican/Socialist Democrat name calling :-(

Then you must be as disturbed as I am, that the vast majority of the winners most likely are going to be Republican.

What is the current ratio of Republican vs Democrat on the Council?

The Florida legislature has been about 70-30% Republican for the past decade, with most Republicans and Independents voting hard-core Republican.

Quote from: NotNow on March 08, 2011, 09:00:33 PM
Faye,  my statement of "wow" was in reference to your quotes and your apparent view that the Federal government should be spending trillions more than it already is, and that we should be taxed at a much higher rate than we are.  I am a little shocked when I read (often on this board) the statements of some that, to me at least, seem to contradict the form of government and the free and independent society that our country is (or at least was).  My beliefs are more strictly in line with the Constitution as written.  I believe in less Federal power and more control by the states.   The constant "teabagger", "King Scott" stuff just turns me off.  You are entitled to your opinion, I just have had enough of the vileness that permeats this site sometimes (I freely admit that I have succumbed to it myself, and I apologize).  I mean no disrespect, I would just like the factual information in the debate, that's all.

No I do not think that "we" should be taxed at a much higher rate. In fact I resent that the middle class tax burden has increased dramatically. But mostly I resent the fact that the tax burden is so much higher on the middle class than the ultra-rich. Why would we perpetually coddle the ultra-rich when we talk about "shared sacrifice"

Where is the shared sacrifice of the ultra-rich?

QuoteEvery U.S. taxpayer contributes about $600 a year to pay for the tax cuts that give $34,000 a year to each of the wealthiest 1% of Americans.

There has been a redistribution of the wealth upward, and the middle class has willingly let themselves be fleeced.

Quote from: FayeforCure on March 09, 2011, 09:06:57 AM
Where is the shared sacrifice of the ultra-rich?

Possibly here:
(http://blog.heritage.org/wp-content/uploads/top10-percent-income-earners-6003.jpg)

In order for that graph to show that the rich are unfairly taxed over the poor, it needs to compare the percentage earned vs the percentage paid in taxes.

Sounds like they are paying in proportion to their wealth:

March 7th, 2011 7:35 PM

The Forbes 400 vs. Everybody Else

According to the most recent information, the Forbes 400 now have a greater net worth than the bottom 50% of U.S. households combined.

In 2009, the total net worth of the Forbes 400 was $1.27 trillion.

The best information now available shows that in 2009 the bottom 60% (yes, now it's 60%, not 50%) of U.S. households owned only 2.3% of total U.S. wealth.

Total U.S. household net worth -- rich, middle class and poor combined -- at the time the Forbes list came out was $53.15 trillion. So the bottom 60% of households possessed just $1.22 trillion of that $53.15 trillion, less than the Forbes 400.

Thus the Forbes 400 unquestionably have more wealth than the bottom 50%.

By contrast, in 2007 the bottom 50% of U.S. households owned slightly more wealth than the Forbes 400; the economic meltdown has hurt the bottom more than the top. (And in fact, in 2010 the net worth of the Forbes 400 jumped to $1.37 trillion.)

And please note: the Forbes 400 alone do not make up the entire top 1%, let alone the top 5%.

SOURCES:

1. Total net worth of Forbes 400, 2009: Forbes

2. Total net worth of bottom 60% of U.S. households, 2009, by percent of total U.S. household net worth: Edward Wolff, "Recent Trends in Household Wealth in the United States: Rising Debt and the Middle-Class Squeezeâ€"an Update to 2007," p. 33 Edward Wolff, Professor of Economics at New York University, is the top academic expert on economic inequality in the U.S. He writes:

"A somewhat rough update, based on the change in housing and stock prices, shows a marked deterioration in middle-class wealth. According to my estimates, while mean wealth (in 2007 dollars) fell by 17.3 percent between 2007 and 2009 to $443,600, median wealth plunged by an astounding 36.1 percent to $65,400 (about the same level as in 1992!) ... Trends in inequality [from 2007 to mid-2009] ... show a fairly steep rise in wealth inequality ... The share of the top 1 percent advanced from 34.6 to 37.1 percent, that of the top 5 percent from 61.8 to 65 percent, and that of the top quintile from 85 to 87.7 percent, while that of the second quintile fell from 10.9 to 10 percent, that of the middle quintile from 4 to 3.1 percent, and that of the bottom two quintiles from 0.2 to -0.8 percent." (emphasis added)

Note: a "quintile" is 20% of U.S. households, so the middle and bottom two quintiles include 60% of U.S. households.

3. Total net worth of U.S. households, third quarter of 2009: Federal Reserve, p. 1

4. Total net worth of bottom 50% of U.S. households, 2007, by amount: Arthur B. Kennickell, Federal Reserve, "Ponds and Streams: Wealth and Income in the U.S., 1989 to 2007, p. 35

5. Total net worth of Forbes 400, 2007: Forbes

6. Total net worth of Forbes 400, 2010: Forbes

Article provided by michaelmoore.com, IMHO a source at least as credible as heritage.org.

Quote from: Lunican on March 09, 2011, 10:22:54 AM
In order for that graph to show that the rich are unfairly taxed over the poor, it needs to compare the percentage earned vs the percentage paid in taxes.

Nobody made any discussion of fairness. The point is simply, for one to say there is no "shared sacrifice" is not based in any resemblance of reality.

The graph attempts to portray the top 10% as paying 61% more than their fair share. It is basically just a big fat lie.

While I do not think I really fit the very loose definitions of "conservative"... :)  I do not think the few of us who seem to have differing views than you really fit the definition of...

QuoteSomeone who is at war with the poor, the minorities or gay people.

or

Quotewe have liars, budget busters and corrupt criminals

Quote from: stephendare on March 09, 2011, 10:48:07 AM


I just wish there was a conservative intellectual around.  Someone who wasn't at war with the poor, the minorities or gay people.  That would be nice.

TADA!

is it really YOU??? :o

Ya. I came here to reseach a company called RAM construction, which I thought I had seen here, and read this thread.

Most posts are so wrought with silliness, I had to jump in. I'll address those one by one.

(much to do)

That, and I have a mancrush on stephen that won't go away.

FWIW: Scott is proving to be a shallow suit, but ending a bad HSR debacle is a good thing. (even if he's a retard)

BTW, how can I get back too my old account? When I left in a huff... (I admit it) I made it where I couldn't log back in in case I got weak. Forums are addictive, you know.

I visit another forum, but just too many conservatives/neocons/tea partiers forming one big circle jerk.

Much more fun to come here and interrupt the lib circle jerk!

Quote from: JeffreyS on March 07, 2011, 06:04:38 PM

Quote from: FayeforCure on March 07, 2011, 03:30:38 PM

Quote from: BridgeTroll on March 07, 2011, 07:19:23 AM

QuotePart of the problem is that our regulatory system allows very little innovation.  We are penalized for trying new concepts and rewarded for sticking with the 'tried and true'.

Your last two sentences seem to say that the "fault" for this aging infrastructure should be lain at the feet of both conservatives and liberals... or more precisely ALL Americans. Hmmm....

Well, it would definitely be a major conservative problem, considering that conservatives do everything in their power to deny changes in our environment, whether it's climate change ( which they deny is accellerated and man-made) or the inevitability of oil shortages that would require us to move to alternatives sooner rather than later.

Besides we all know how conservatives hate taxes and spending, without which major improvements in infrastructure are simply impossible.

So YES, primarily it IS a conservative problem. What governors again, were the ones turning down the HRS monies? What........, they were all conservative?

How about Democratic governors, did any of them turn down HSR money ? No, none?

Well, we couldn't be more clear than that!!!!

Conservatives do not hate spending unless it is on America or Americans. Iraq infrastructure they like spending on it so much they will Knock it down just to spend on it again.

I think you're right here, Jeffrey. I'm sure I've defended Halaburton and the war in Iraq at some point in my e-life, but there is a reason they want to perpetuate spending on foreign soil. Easy profits and no bid contracts.

QuoteMore than 40% of those Americans born in the bottom quintile remain stuck there as adults.

Wow!

This is awesome news!

Nearly 60% of people born into poverty escape by adulthood!

Capitalism works!

Quote from: pwhitford on March 09, 2011, 10:27:36 AM
Sounds like they are paying in proportion to their wealth:

March 7th, 2011 7:35 PM

The Forbes 400 vs. Everybody Else

According to the most recent information, the Forbes 400 now have a greater net worth than the bottom 50% of U.S. households combined.

In 2009, the total net worth of the Forbes 400 was $1.27 trillion.

The best information now available shows that in 2009 the bottom 60% (yes, now it's 60%, not 50%) of U.S. households owned only 2.3% of total U.S. wealth.

Total U.S. household net worth -- rich, middle class and poor combined -- at the time the Forbes list came out was $53.15 trillion. So the bottom 60% of households possessed just $1.22 trillion of that $53.15 trillion, less than the Forbes 400.

Thus the Forbes 400 unquestionably have more wealth than the bottom 50%.

By contrast, in 2007 the bottom 50% of U.S. households owned slightly more wealth than the Forbes 400; the economic meltdown has hurt the bottom more than the top. (And in fact, in 2010 the net worth of the Forbes 400 jumped to $1.37 trillion.)

And please note: the Forbes 400 alone do not make up the entire top 1%, let alone the top 5%.

SOURCES:

1. Total net worth of Forbes 400, 2009: Forbes

2. Total net worth of bottom 60% of U.S. households, 2009, by percent of total U.S. household net worth: Edward Wolff, "Recent Trends in Household Wealth in the United States: Rising Debt and the Middle-Class Squeezeâ€"an Update to 2007," p. 33 Edward Wolff, Professor of Economics at New York University, is the top academic expert on economic inequality in the U.S. He writes:

"A somewhat rough update, based on the change in housing and stock prices, shows a marked deterioration in middle-class wealth. According to my estimates, while mean wealth (in 2007 dollars) fell by 17.3 percent between 2007 and 2009 to $443,600, median wealth plunged by an astounding 36.1 percent to $65,400 (about the same level as in 1992!) ... Trends in inequality [from 2007 to mid-2009] ... show a fairly steep rise in wealth inequality ... The share of the top 1 percent advanced from 34.6 to 37.1 percent, that of the top 5 percent from 61.8 to 65 percent, and that of the top quintile from 85 to 87.7 percent, while that of the second quintile fell from 10.9 to 10 percent, that of the middle quintile from 4 to 3.1 percent, and that of the bottom two quintiles from 0.2 to -0.8 percent." (emphasis added)

Note: a "quintile" is 20% of U.S. households, so the middle and bottom two quintiles include 60% of U.S. households.

3. Total net worth of U.S. households, third quarter of 2009: Federal Reserve, p. 1

4. Total net worth of bottom 50% of U.S. households, 2007, by amount: Arthur B. Kennickell, Federal Reserve, "Ponds and Streams: Wealth and Income in the U.S., 1989 to 2007, p. 35

5. Total net worth of Forbes 400, 2007: Forbes

6. Total net worth of Forbes 400, 2010: Forbes

Article provided by michaelmoore.com, IMHO a source at least as credible as heritage.org.

Owning wealth has nothing to do with the current federal tax structure.

Income is taxed.

A universal consumption tax could rectify that.

LOVE ME!

Quote from: stephendare on March 09, 2011, 10:31:23 AM

Quote from: Lunican on March 09, 2011, 10:22:54 AM
In order for that graph to show that the rich are unfairly taxed over the poor, it needs to compare the percentage earned vs the percentage paid in taxes.

yeah.  especially considering that the top 10% own 93% of the wealth and income.  I think its probably a vivid illustration of how unfairly they are being undertaxed.

If they should be paying 93% of the taxes, why are they only paying 71%?

Everyone else is paying for that 22% undertaxation for them.

One would need to devise a wealth tax to "correct" this. The estate tax performed this function to a degree.

Quote from: Buckethead! on March 09, 2011, 01:47:14 PM

QuoteMore than 40% of those Americans born in the bottom quintile remain stuck there as adults.

Wow!

This is awesome news!

Nearly 60% of people born into poverty escape by adulthood!

Capitalism works!

Why is everyone so afraid american capitalism is under attack? European capitalistic societies, according to the economic mobility report, are doing a far better job at lifting the poor out of poverty.

Yet, this was supposedly the "land of opportunity." Apparently NOT.

This is the land of extremes..............the extremely poor, and the extremely rich, with the middle class being squeezed out.

There is truth in some of what you type.

Also falsehood. "Fear that capitalism is under attack" is fair enough.

It has to do with wall street bankers being government and government being wall street bakers.

Capitalism is indeed under attack: from the inside.

A currently presiding Democrat President is complicit.

From what I am reading here, all we need to do is vote straight Democrat and we eliminate all the liars, cheats, and budget busters from our government.

We would also eliminate a war on the poor too!  Awesome!

Once again I don't like either side, they are polarizing for a reason.  Until we eliminate DNC and RNC we are FU**ED!

Both sides lie, steal and cheat and hide behind their constituents who defend them because they have the right color and mascot.

I like the OP blaming the "Conservatives" for the failure of our school system.  For the most part it is a failure of parents being involved.  Rarely is there an instance where a parent is involved that they can not receive the help they need for their children.  

We have failing schools because the kids don't show up, or aren't prepared, or just don't care.  I damn sure wanted to skip as much school as I could, but I had parents following up on me not giving up no matter how hard I tried to flunk out.  After high school I finally figured it out, paid my way through FCCJ and then UNF.  

I don't understand the mindset that the government is smarter than we are and know what's best for the people, but too many people believe it.

Quote from: Buckethead! on March 09, 2011, 02:01:15 PM
There is truth in some of what you type.

Also falsehood. "Fear that capitalism is under attack" is fair enough.

It has to do with wall street bankers being government and government being wall street bakers.

Capitalism is indeed under attack: from the inside.

A currently presiding Democrat President is complicit.

Wow, so true, and I agree completely. I cannot believe this.


BTW, the rich have dropped the ball on shared sacrifice since 1980 when the top tax rate was 70% on anything earned over $215,000.

Now the tax rate is about 38% on anything over about $300,000.

If anything after all kinds of deductions and other loopholes for the rich, they are paying far less in taxes per household than their equals in 1980.

And the ultra rich are also taxed at that really low marginal top rate.

http://www.truthandpolitics.org/top-rates.php

Here is my ONLY area of common ground with you Faye... on this topic.

QuoteIf anything after all kinds of deductions and other loopholes for the rich, they are paying far less in taxes per household than their equals in 1980.

Tax reform should be a top priority of BOTH parties.  If they were to concentrate in this area... leaving rates alone... you would find support.

Republicans and Democrats alike know that to reform the tax code meaningfully will decrease their power and advantage.

We will need to look outside the "two party system" if we want to see real tax reform.

Uber conservatives and Uber liberals agree on the need for tax reform, but disagree on what those reforms should be.

Congress is highly unlikely to diminish it's power to grant itself and it's allies tax advantages.

But whoopsie... I have derailed another perfectly fun conservative bashing thread.


FWIW: Mass Transit is CONSERVATIVE!

Quote from: BridgeTroll on March 09, 2011, 02:17:41 PM
Here is my ONLY area of common ground with you Faye... on this topic.

QuoteIf anything after all kinds of deductions and other loopholes for the rich, they are paying far less in taxes per household than their equals in 1980.

Tax reform should be a top priority of BOTH parties.  If they were to concentrate in this area... leaving rates alone... you would find support.

I can get on board with that BT.

Im not unreasonable... ;D

Quote from: buckethead on March 09, 2011, 02:25:01 PM
Republicans and Democrats alike know that to reform the tax code meaningfully will decrease their power and advantage.

We will need to look outside the "two party system" if we want to see real tax reform.

Uber conservatives and Uber liberals agree on the need for tax reform, but disagree on what those reforms should be.

Congress is highly unlikely to diminish it's power to grant itself and it's allies tax advantages.

But whoopsie... I have derailed another perfectly fun conservative bashing thread.


FWIW: Mass Transit is CONSERVATIVE!

To bring back this thread on topic: A Florida DEMOCRATIC Governor ( and a female at that too) would have provide the ultimate in mass transit: Full Blown HSR!!!!

Yay to Democrats for NEVER wavering on the need for mass transit!!!

Booo to Republicans who want to keep cutting taxes and shrink government so that it'll never be able to do any more large public works!!!!!

Quote from: buckethead on March 09, 2011, 02:25:01 PM
Republicans and Democrats alike know that to reform the tax code meaningfully will decrease their power and advantage.

We will need to look outside the "two party system" if we want to see real tax reform.

Uber conservatives and Uber liberals agree on the need for tax reform, but disagree on what those reforms should be.

Congress is highly unlikely to diminish it's power to grant itself and it's allies tax advantages.

But whoopsie... I have derailed another perfectly fun conservative bashing thread.


FWIW: Mass Transit is CONSERVATIVE!

OMG, I am so on board with this (except the last line, which I am not convinced of), and I am thought by many to be so thoroughly liberal it would make your head spin.  It certainly does mine.  Budding mancrush triangle?

QuoteBudding mancrush triangle?

Please stop... ;D

How does a Ron Paul/Bernie Sanders presidential bid sound?

Quote from: stephendare on March 09, 2011, 02:06:54 PM

Quote from: Gators312 on March 09, 2011, 02:03:42 PM
From what I am reading here, all we need to do is vote straight Democrat and we eliminate all the liars, cheats, and budget busters from our government.

We would also eliminate a war on the poor too!  Awesome!

In fairness, gator.  Only Faye and GardenGuy are making this partisan claim.  I don't think anyone else is.

We dealt with it for years when it was Riversidegator and CharlestonDave making the same claims from the opposite point of view.  There are always a couple in the room.

Glad to be of assistance....

Quote from: Gators312 on March 09, 2011, 02:03:42 PM
I like the OP blaming the "Conservatives" for the failure of our school system.  For the most part it is a failure of parents being involved.  Rarely is there an instance where a parent is involved that they can not receive the help they need for their children.  

We have failing schools because the kids don't show up, or aren't prepared, or just don't care.  I damn sure wanted to skip as much school as I could, but I had parents following up on me not giving up no matter how hard I tried to flunk out.  After high school I finally figured it out, paid my way through FCCJ and then UNF.

I'm not one to label entire groups as this or that, but one thing is CERTAIN, Rick Scott if allowed to run wild, is going to wreck whatever is left of Florida's educational system... 4 day school weeks with 10 hour days is going to send a huge portion of our working families to the poor house. The only alternative to a full day of childcare is no care at all, or employers cutting to a 4 day week. Not likely to happen.

Let's roll up the State Parks, many of which are historic sites and thus educational through experiential learning.

The latest is the new idea that will knock out financial aid to any student below a 3.5 GPA. Don't deserve it you say? What about the learning disabled? The AD/HD? The autistic? Dyslexic? ...MAYBE THEY JUST DON'T TRY HARD ENOUGH!

It's becoming more apparent by the day that Scott's version of utopia is a divided elitist society of the few, the privileged and the affluent, and a subservient and criminal class who will only gain the support of their home state behind bars.

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: Ocklawaha on March 10, 2011, 11:48:35 AM

I'm not one to label entire groups as this or that, but one thing is CERTAIN, Rick Scott if allowed to run wild, is going to wreck whatever is left of Florida's educational system... 4 day school weeks with 10 hour days is going to send a huge portion of our working families to the poor house. The only alternative to a full day of childcare is no care at all, or employers cutting to a 4 day week. Not likely to happen.

Let's roll up the State Parks, many of which are historic sites and thus educational through experiential learning.

The latest is the new idea that will knock out financial aid to any student below a 3.5 GPA. Don't deserve it you say? What about the learning disabled? The AD/HD? The autistic? Dyslexic? ...MAYBE THEY JUST DON'T TRY HARD ENOUGH!

It's becoming more apparent by the day that Scott's version of utopia is a divided elitist society of the few, the privileged and the affluent, and a subservient and criminal class who will only gain the support of their home state behind bars.

OCKLAWAHA

My point has nothing to do with Scott's decisions on the upcoming Budget or the choices to cut funding in the past which pretty much has eliminated trips to the historic places throughout Florida, the arts and physical education from our schools.  It's pretty easy to surmise that the less money you put into the system, the less you will get out.

I was to point out that funding isn't our only issue in schools today, that a lack of support for students at home and from their neighbors exists(you know, Takes a village...), which contributes to the attitudes that our politicians have regarding education.   As long as we continue to have dropout rates around 41% it doesn't matter how much money we throw at the schools if kids aren't showing up. 

There is a large segment of our local population that doesn't find education important, and this failure to foster a positive learning environment and instill the need for knowledge in our youth today is what is dragging our country down.

No confusion over what you were saying Gator, merely an independent observation that actually you alluded to in your response, IE: The lack of home support. Imagine what Scott's 4 day school week is going to do for those thousands of students who sit at home ALONE from 9-5 daily... Better bar the door boys and girls.

OCKLAWAHA

Where the hell were these 4 day school weeks when I was young? I certainly could have used one less day of harassment from my peers! I say hell no! If I had to suffer, they should have to suffer too. Give them even more school, much much much more school!

Quote from: Ocklawaha on March 10, 2011, 11:48:35 AM

I'm not one to label entire groups as this or that, but one thing is CERTAIN, Rick Scott if allowed to run wild, is going to wreck whatever is left of Florida's educational system... 4 day school weeks with 10 hour days is going to send a huge portion of our working families to the poor house. The only alternative to a full day of childcare is no care at all, or employers cutting to a 4 day week. Not likely to happen.

Let's roll up the State Parks, many of which are historic sites and thus educational through experiential learning.

The latest is the new idea that will knock out financial aid to any student below a 3.5 GPA. Don't deserve it you say? What about the learning disabled? The AD/HD? The autistic? Dyslexic? ...MAYBE THEY JUST DON'T TRY HARD ENOUGH!

It's becoming more apparent by the day that Scott's version of utopia is a divided elitist society of the few, the privileged and the affluent, and a subservient and criminal class who will only gain the support of their home state behind bars.

OCKLAWAHA

Beautiful piece!! Please send it in as an Op/Ed to the Florida Times Union.

It is an excellent eye-opener!!

Additional considerations...........older trains are more expensive to maintain than HSR trains:

QuoteVHS trains have a longer life-cycle and better reliability, as they require less maintenance than city-to-city trains, which operates on a stop-start basis.

http://www.engineeringnews.co.za/article/high-speed-gauteng-kzn-railway-service-would-require-subsidies-believes-alstom-2011-12-12

Another example how penny wise can be pound foolish when one operates with a myopic view on infrastructure investment for Public transportation.

The incremental route to upgrading tracks for higher speeds rather starting from scratch may not look so good after all in the long run.

More on the flawed incremental high speed rail approach here:

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php?topic=11886.0