QuoteIn a transportation trifecta, state and federal officials pledged Friday to accelerate the widening of Interstate 485, pay for a new airport control tower and help extend Charlotte's light-rail line to UNC Charlotte.
Gov. Bev Perdue joined U.S. Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood, Sen. Kay Hagan and other officials at the Charlotte Chamber for a roundtable discussion with business leaders.
Perdue made official what a state senator announced last month: that the widening of I-485 between Rea Road and Interstate 77 will begin in 2012, two years ahead of schedule.
"It's great news for this community ... but it's also great news for North Carolina," Perdue said.
LaHood offered the possibility of more good news.
He said President Barack Obama has budgeted $550 billion for transportation issues, a pot that includes billions for high-speed rail and $400 million for light-rail projects such as Charlotte's.
A former Republican congressman, LaHood said he's optimistic the budget can largely survive the new GOP-controlled House.
"We're going to work with Congress," he said. "There's nothing partisan about transportation. There are no 'Republican' or 'Democrat' bridges or roads. And I believe transportation will be bi-partisan this year."
LaHood called the transportation measure "a jobs bill."
"The president is saying if we want to put people to work," he said, "the way to do that is make these investments."
LaHood was the only Republican on a panel that included Democratic U.S. Reps. Mel Watt of Charlotte and Larry Kissell of Montgomery County.
In a hearing earlier this week, senators questioned LaHood about how the transportation budget's proposals would be paid for. A spokeswoman for Charlotte Republican Rep. Sue Myrick said a GOP-led House committee is holding hearings on the bill across the country.
LaHood promised Jerry Orr, aviation director at Charlotte-Douglas International Airport, to help build a new control tower. And he offered the prospect that Charlotte might get some of the budget's $400 million to extend light rail to the university area.
UNC Charlotte Chancellor Phil Dubois told the secretary the extension would connect "two of the biggest economic drivers" in the area, uptown and the university.
Federal Transit Administrator Peter Rogoff applauded the project. "The growth that this region is going to experience is going to be eye-popping," he said. "What will really make or break Charlotte is how will they plan for it? Things like the (Lynx) Blue Line extension is how we plan for it."
LaHood, Rogoff and the members of Congress took a ride on the Blue Line from uptown to South End, passing developments that came about as a result of the light rail.
"Everywhere I go I say it," LaHood said at the chamber. "If you build it they will come. Any of these corridors become an economic engine."
The federal government has promised North Carolina $500 million for high-speed rail, including a line between Charlotte and Greensboro. LaHood declined to say whether North Carolina might benefit from the $2.4 billion for high-speed rail the state of Florida rejected Friday. LaHood said he'll announce next week what the department would do with the money. But he lauded North Carolina's commitment to rail.
"North Carolina's got it together," he said. "North Carolina is going to be in the high-speed rail business because of the tenacious leadership of your governor."
FYI, Perdue is up for re-election next year. AS Governor, she will host the DNC Convention that will be held next year in Charlotte.
this will not be the first real money we've given to charlotte .
We deserve what we get. Especially in NE Florida who put crook Scott in office. This WILL come back to bite Florida for years to come. As long as Scott and people like him are in office we will be falling way behind, most notably in NE Florida. And if we get the same kind of regressive government in this city, we will continue to fall way behind the rest of Florida. WE ARE WAY FAR BEHIND THE OTHER MAJOR CITIES IN FLORIDA. The political atmosphere in Florida is very poisonous. It is simply about power, NOT what's good for the people. I wish I had the means to move someplace else.
The money will most likely be split up and sent to a number of other states pursuing HSR. Most will go to California, New York and the Midwest but North Carolina should get some cash for their project as well.
It's not just that Jacksonville is falling behind relative to other cities it feels like Jacksonville is actually going backwards in absolute terms.
Quote from: thelakelander on March 05, 2011, 11:11:39 AM
The money will most likely be split up and sent to a number of other states pursuing HSR. Most will go to California, New York and the Midwest but North Carolina should get some cash for their project as well.
Any cash going to NC HSR is cash that is going to SEHSR which equals cash that is going to J A C K S O N V I L L E via high speed train. OCKLAWAHA
I'd rather it go to a project that can be quickly implemented. After all, that was the whole point of the federal stimulus in the first place. If I had my choice, I'd send the cash to the Midwest. That region and its major cities could use the economic boost and their plan appears to be solid, quick to implement and the most affordable. The current timeline for SEHSR is the hope to link DC with Charlotte by 2022.
(http://www.sehsr.org/graphics/sehsr_front.gif)
http://www.sehsr.org/history.html
The rest of the SEHSR plan is so conceptual in the making that I'm skeptical that it will ever happen, as long as our national and state political structure remains the same. Do you guys really think South Carolina and Georgia are going to embrace a multi-billion dollar statewide rail project within their borders anytime soon?
A high speed rail line up the East Coast - or into the Midwest - would contribute to the development of a national high speed rail system, and would therefore be a win for planning over short sighted opportunism.
Either option would be more cost effective than the option that Scott rejected, and would also benefit Jacksonville.
The Florida plan was actually pretty cheap ($32 million per mile) and would have probably reached Jax before SEHSR makes it to Atlanta. By comparison, Charlotte's recently completed LRT line cost $48 million per mile and our own Outer Beltway's estimates put it at $40 million per mile. Again, not to piss in everyone's punch bowl (just providing a little more reality to the discussion), the SEHSR is so conceptual that most of it hasn't even been studied yet, so no one has a clue of how much it will cost or how long it will take to get that funding or to construct it. The first phase (Charlotte/DC) is still environmental study phase and could cost as much as $7.5 billion.
http://www.sehsr.org/faq.html
Maybe so but SEHSR and the Midwest HSR projects are incremental, and as Charlotte has already proved can start to benefit the region long before true HSR ever reaches the city.
We need to get off the idea that we are an island, and think national, fast, frequent trains, HrSR makes a hell of a lot more sense from KC to St. Louis to Chi Town, from Houston to Dallas to OKC, or ABQ-ELP, then a wasted "inexpensive" flying 200 mph capable train, running at 90 mph down the middle of I-4 and stopping every 10 miles.
Fact is CSX already applied for a huge grant to double and triple track the entire route from JAX to DC that "has nothing to do with HSR..." ;) On the same corridor that the feds have designated as SEHSR, also the Atlanta-Jax study is ongoing right now. SEHSR is much, much bigger, longer term, more sustainable, logical and a better fit for the technology. Reality? i can go down to the county health clinic and get birth control pills FREE, but you won't see either of us hanging out down there. Florida has long been addicted to the quick fix, and it has gotten us into a lot of jams over the years. Railroads were not/are not overnight projects as Florida seems to believe, just as the federal interstate program has taken 50 years to realize, a true HSR network will likewise take time. Putting rocket engines on what is ostensibly a regional or commuter train route makes no sense.
OCKLAWAHA
Ock...Florida's HSR was also incremental and would have connected to miam, jax, and the rest of the southeast in phases.
From what I understand, your main problem with the tampa to orlando route was that it woud use i-4.....since the other routes aren't as far along, we don't know what exact route they will take or where the stops will be.
Yet you support those routes and not ours......please explain.
Quote from: tufsu1 on March 05, 2011, 02:02:58 PM
Ock...Florida's hsr was also incremental and would have connected to miam, jax, and the rest of the southeast in phases.
From what I understand, your main problem with the tampa to orlando route was that it woud use i-4.....since the other routes aren't as faralong, we don't know what exact route they will take or where the stops will be.
Yet you support those routes and not ours......please explain.
My problems with Florida are myriad, here's 10 of them.
1. You are correct in stating that I think I-4 is at least 4-9 miles north of the target market if we are serving Floridians. In that light, a CSX alignment or a hybrid would have been light years superior.
2. If we are going to say it wasn't really for Floridians, then I DEFINITELY have another huge problem with it.
3. Even if we had to stay with I-4 (and the "CSX won't play argument is bogus) then for Gods sake get it into Orlando and it's metro downtown's, hell running from Apopka to Tampa would be better then the most inconvenient airport in the state.
4. Missing Tampa Union Station on any basis with a glorified Skyway station is unforgivable after the State and locals invested millions to bring it up to speed for... HIGH SPEED RAIL. Not to mention Commuter Rail, Amtrak, Light Rail, Streetcar, BRT (which will pass right by it)...
5. The Tampa to Miami via Orlando Airport route, no matter how they cut it FAILS to win the cross state race, even at 120-220 mph it can be beat by a stock automobile on a freeway, or a conventional train on an UPGRADED old SEABOARD Cross-Florida-Shortline. Cocoa involves a 110% turn south, Directly south involves about 140 miles of NOTHING, and the westerly route along the CSX while reaching a decent population is circuitous to Miami, in fact all of the above HSR routes are circuitous.
6. The Miami-Jacksonville FEC RY Amtrak route is being funded (or was) as a high speed rail project under the 90-150 mph ACELLERAIL FRA CRITERIA.
7. There is NOTHING incremental in attempting to go from A to Z without B through Y, and that is exactly what Florida HSR attempts to do. In a state that has seen continous cuts to it's meager Amtrak services, and shown an unwillingness if not inability to fund even remedial regional Amtrak and commuter train operations, talking about 200 mile per hour "flying trains" taking XXX people here or there or relieving XXX cars from any highway is pure unrealistic fantasy. As Lakelander would say, REALITY CHECK TIME. If and when the FEC route has 5-10 trains per direction-per day, and the "A" line of the CSX is likewise populated with Amtrak services, when the state shows it can actually get a train back to Sarasota and Venice, and Ft. Myers and Naples, and Tallahassee and Pensacola, as well as return passenger service to the "S" line between Jax and Tampa, or retain it between Tampa and Miami, and create and run commuter rail services, WE ARE SIMPLY NOT READY FOR "NEW HSR" to make a realistic attempt at success.
8. Why not bring it down to earth? Trains don't fly, and elevated track brings on a whole plethora of maintenance, noise, and visual problems. THUS MY RUNNING COMMENTS ABOUT "FLYING TRAINS." QuoteVertical alignments according to HSRA, the vertical alignment of the train has an effect. â€Noise from elevated trains travels twice as far as noise from trains that are ‘at grade’ (at ground level).
The FRA provides a useful diagram that shows comparisons of the shielding corrections associated with various types of track geometries (alignments). NOTE that the Skyway is not on a true monorail track, rather it is a monorail in a tub, why? NOISE.
SOURCE: [insert image pg 56, http://www.fra.dot.gov/downloads/RRDev/final_nv.pdf]
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2691/4382728248_bb2129d11c.jpg)
...Another one bites the dust? The passenger canopies have been torn down at the completely rebuilt 1917 Intermodal Transportation Center in Ocala. Why not? Florida is going to build a "flying train"
10. If we must go with the current plan, what is wrong with accessing the DOWNTOWN'S of the metropolitan area's via the current railroad alignments EUROPEAN STYLE? It's so typical of Florida to over-plan and under-plan at the same moment isn't it? By missing both Tampa Union Station, Orlando and Winter Park Amtrak as well as CHURCH STREET STATION DOWNTOWN or Lynx Station, then by missing Miami Amtrak, this is a train without roots, and its about as close to zero connectivity as one could create. Looking over the applications and documentation I honestly can't figure out if we've lost our horse or found a lead rope! FOR THOSE WHO ARE LOST - THIS FROM THE FEDERAL RAILROAD ADMINISTRATION - EXPLAINING MANY OF OUR POINTS:
QuoteAccelerail constitutes upgraded intercity rail passenger service on existing railroad rights-of-way, most of which belong to the freight railroads. The Accelerail options considered in this report have top speeds ranging from 90 to 150 mph.
The Accelerail 150 options generally assume a greater separation of passenger from freight service. Two fundamental means exist to accomplish Accelerail these usually occur in combination, based on projections of time savings, net revenue impacts, and life-cycle costs:
· Improve the infrastructure (including, for example, track and structures) to allow for higher top speeds, remove site-specific speed restrictions (e.g., in urban areas, around curves, through switches), and offer higher line throughput capacity and enhanced reliability;
and/or
· Improve the fleet of locomotives and cars (sometimes permanently or semipermanently attached in larger units called “trainsetsâ€) to provide better acceleration, to achieve higher maximum speeds, and to alleviate the need to slow down for curves by providing additional banking within the vehicle (“tiltâ€). In addition to promising favorable operating results, efforts to upgrade existing service to Accelerail levels must adhere to evolving safety standards, the stringency of which generally increases with speed.
Certain system elements, such as train control and electrification, rely on a perfectly coordinated set of vehicle, right-of-way, and other improvements. In addition, even in the absence of line-haul trip-time savings, some reductions in total (door-to-door) travel times could conceivably occurâ€" for example, through station relocations, additions, and reconfigurations; through parking and other access betterments; through higher train frequencies; and through streamlined ticketing and other processes.
Making use of existing facilities, Accelerail ordinarily represents the least ambitious and least expensive HSGT technology and may provide relatively high benefits in comparison with the investment required. Nevertheless, Accelerail solutions require concerted attention to the needs and operations of the freight railroads, which own most of the rights-of-way and which already provide a transportation service that is of supreme importance to the Nation’s commerce. Accelerail’s success thus depends on its ability to secure the cooperation of the railroad companies.
New HSR represents advanced steel-wheel-on-rail passenger systems on almost completely new rights-of-way. Through a combination of electrification and other advanced components, expeditious alignments, and state-of-the-art rolling stock, New HSR can attain maximum practical operating speeds on the order of 200 mph. On the other hand, because it is compatible with existing railroads, New HSR can combine new lines in rural areas with existing approaches to urban terminals, and can offer Accelerail-type services beyond the confines of the New HSR lines per se.
SOURCE: http://www.fra.dot.gov/downloads/RRDev/cfs0997ch3.pdf
OCKLAWAHA
All I'm saying is that:
1; If some or all of the $2.4 billion goes to support a rail project in another SE state, Jacksonville could end up better off than if that money had been spent on something that would have run down the middle of I-4; and
2; It's better to have a (good) plan than to throw money at something just because it can be done cheaply or quickly.
not to pick on just one thing on your list....but...
Quote from: Ocklawaha on March 05, 2011, 09:21:05 PM
hell running from Apopka to Tampa would be better then the most inconvenient airport in the state.
are you really saying that Orlando's airport location is less convenient to their overall metro area than JIA?
Quote from: tufsu1 on March 05, 2011, 09:58:11 PM
not to pick on just one thing on your list....but...
Quote from: Ocklawaha on March 05, 2011, 09:21:05 PM
hell running from Apopka to Tampa would be better then the most inconvenient airport in the state.
are you really saying that Orlando's airport location is less convenient to their overall metro area than JIA?
No, but I wouldn't run a railroad line (outside of light rail) into JIA either, and even then only after it becomes a hub for some carrier or two.
What I said was APOPKA which is on Orange Blossom Trail US-441, SR-436, Maitland Bl, SR-429, is more accessible to Orlando's Metro then OIA.
Now back to my reasons for not liking the plan? I did answer your question in some detail didn't I?OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: Dashing Dan on March 05, 2011, 09:38:54 PM
All I'm saying is that:
1; If some or all of the $2.4 billion goes to support a rail project in another SE state, Jacksonville could end up better off than if that money had been spent on something that would have run down the middle of I-4; and
2; It's better to have a (good) plan than to throw money at something just because it can be done cheaply or quickly.
Cool. However, I disagree. The Florida plan was valid enough to allow the RFP to be issued before killing it. Also, the negative impact will be felt on Jacksonville, sooner rather than later. That negative impact will fall on our commuter rail plans or any mass transit dreams that are currently set up to be funded partially with state and federal dollars (ex. BRT, Commuter Rail, Streetcar, FEC/Amtrak). Scott isn't going to fund any of these projects while he's in office, so we're potentially looking at a delay of at least four to five years on most of them. Assuming the GOP replaces Obama after his first term is up and that delay could extend out past a decade. Btw, if this happens, the SEHSR plan isn't going to make it to Charlotte either.
Btw, what's the big fuss about OIA? Like it or not, a chunk of people in that region are coming in and out of OIA. Quite frankly, a transit planner would be a fool to not try and tap into that potential ridership market in some form or fashion (to be honest, its even more important to the region that DT Orlando is). We can argue all day over whether the selected route should have been I-4 or the CSX line but its a no brainer that any logical plan would have to take advantage of the captive audience Disney, the airport and the I-Drive bring to Central Florida. Last, OIA is definately more accessible to the region than Apoka is. The Bee Line, 436 and the Greenway gives that airport great access to not only metro Orlando, but also Polk (pop. 600,000) and Brevard/Port Canaveral area (pop.540,000). That's an extra 1.14 million people being overlooked or totally ignored in this discussion.
Quote from: thelakelander on March 05, 2011, 10:26:44 PM
Quote from: Dashing Dan on March 05, 2011, 09:38:54 PM
All I'm saying is that:
1; If some or all of the $2.4 billion goes to support a rail project in another SE state, Jacksonville could end up better off than if that money had been spent on something that would have run down the middle of I-4; and
2; It's better to have a (good) plan than to throw money at something just because it can be done cheaply or quickly.
Cool. However, I disagree. The Florida plan was valid enough to allow the RFP to be issued before killing it. Also, the negative impact will be felt on Jacksonville, sooner rather than later. That negative impact will fall on our commuter rail plans or any mass transit dreams that are currently set up to be funded partially with state and federal dollars (ex. BRT, Commuter Rail, Streetcar, FEC/Amtrak). Scott isn't going to fund any of these projects while he's in office, so we're potentially looking at a delay of at least four to five years on most of them. Assuming the GOP replaces Obama after his first term is up and that delay could extend out past a decade. Btw, if this happens, the SEHSR plan isn't going to make it to Charlotte either.
Obama was just grabbing low hanging fruit. He wasn't following a plan. A plan would have connected the dots.
Quote from: thelakelander on March 05, 2011, 10:39:06 PM
Btw, what's the big fuss about OIA? Like it or not, a chunk of people in that region are coming in and out of OIA. Quite frankly, a transit planner would be a fool to not try and tap into that potential ridership market in some form or fashion (to be honest, its even more important to the region that DT Orlando is). We can argue all day over whether the selected route should have been I-4 or the CSX line but its a no brainer that any logical plan would have to take advantage of the captive audience Disney, the airport and the I-Drive bring to Central Florida. Last, OIA is definately more accessible to the region than Apoka is. The Bee Line, 436 and the Greenway gives that airport great access to not only metro Orlando, but also Polk (pop. 600,000) and Brevard/Port Canaveral area (pop.540,000). That's an extra 1.14 million people being overlooked or totally ignored in this discussion.
I never said I wouldn't serve OIA, but the rail line comes out of DOWNTOWN or it fails to serve Florida residents en masse.
As far as being centrally located, I lived in Orlando, Heathrow area for 10 years, and I'd rather ride a pogo stick to Apopka then a car to OIA. I can point to a few hundred others from DOWNTOWN north that feel the same way. That location is so bad, that most people I know would rather drive 2-4 hours to Tampa then take a 20 minute train ride if it also meant a 30 minute trip to OIA, a 30 minute search for a parking spot and to get to the terminal plus a $19 dollar daily parking rate (add it to the train fare, then add my wife and any kids) then a 30 mintue wait for a train. About 110 minutes on a 20 minute flying train Orlando-Tampa and I'd still be faster in my 69 VW Microbus.
THAT'S WHAT THE FUSS IS ABOUT OIA!
Y'all hold em in the frog, high greens till next time... meanwhile a coded message for my HSR friends! (LUNICAN YOUR UP)(http://www.plerrhs.org/signals/images/h_yrg.gif) ;D
well maybe you should take a look at how the Orlando region is developed nopw...there's a whole bunch of growth in the southeast and east that is very convenient to OIA
Quote from: Dashing Dan on March 05, 2011, 11:31:48 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on March 05, 2011, 10:26:44 PM
Quote from: Dashing Dan on March 05, 2011, 09:38:54 PM
All I'm saying is that:
1; If some or all of the $2.4 billion goes to support a rail project in another SE state, Jacksonville could end up better off than if that money had been spent on something that would have run down the middle of I-4; and
2; It's better to have a (good) plan than to throw money at something just because it can be done cheaply or quickly.
Cool. However, I disagree. The Florida plan was valid enough to allow the RFP to be issued before killing it. Also, the negative impact will be felt on Jacksonville, sooner rather than later. That negative impact will fall on our commuter rail plans or any mass transit dreams that are currently set up to be funded partially with state and federal dollars (ex. BRT, Commuter Rail, Streetcar, FEC/Amtrak). Scott isn't going to fund any of these projects while he's in office, so we're potentially looking at a delay of at least four to five years on most of them. Assuming the GOP replaces Obama after his first term is up and that delay could extend out past a decade. Btw, if this happens, the SEHSR plan isn't going to make it to Charlotte either.
Obama was just grabbing low hanging fruit. He wasn't following a plan. A plan would have connected the dots.
He was trying to create jobs in places that needed them by building projects that stimulate sustainable development that were already shovel ready. It was really an opportunity to kill two birds with one massive stone. This goal will still be accomplished with the $2.4 billion, it just won't happen in Florida.
Quote from: Ocklawaha on March 06, 2011, 12:03:41 AM
I never said I wouldn't serve OIA, but the rail line comes out of DOWNTOWN or it fails to serve Florida residents en masse.
Not true. Orlando isn't Jacksonville, DC or Philly. DT Orlando was never the center of the Central Florida region. It wasn't before Disney and it certainly isn't now. Sunrail would provide the connection you seek, while also tying in with HSR.
QuoteAs far as being centrally located, I lived in Orlando, Heathrow area for 10 years, and I'd rather ride a pogo stick to Apopka then a car to OIA. I can point to a few hundred others from DOWNTOWN north that feel the same way.
Heathrow is a small little community on the northern fringe of the metro area. It doesn't make sense to bypass the center of the region to provide better transit to the northern fringe. If you want to go to Tampa, it may be better for you to drive if you are a local resident staying in Heathrow. However, if you want to travel to Miami, the train would be quicker. All in all, it really depends on your specific location within the region, which applies to any mass transit system in any city.
QuoteThat location is so bad, that most people I know would rather drive 2-4 hours to Tampa then take a 20 minute train ride if it also meant a 30 minute trip to OIA, a 30 minute search for a parking spot and to get to the terminal plus a $19 dollar daily parking rate (add it to the train fare, then add my wife and any kids) then a 30 mintue wait for a train. About 110 minutes on a 20 minute flying train Orlando-Tampa and I'd still be faster in my 69 VW Microbus.
THAT'S WHAT THE FUSS IS ABOUT OIA!
As mentioned before, it really depends on your location within the region (which applies anywhere). Those in Polk and Brevard (both significantly larger than Seminole County in population) sing a completely different tune. They would have had the opportunity to leave their cars in their community, take a quick train ride to the airport (not paying for any parking in process) or transfer to Sunrail to access other areas of the Orlando region.
In closing, railing against OIA because its not as convenient to 400,000 residents on the fringe (btw, they would still have Sunrail tying them in) than it is to millions of Central Florida residents and tourist centers on not paying attention to the larger picture of accepting the established growth pattern of the region in general.
Quote from: thelakelander on March 06, 2011, 10:32:28 AM
Quote from: Dashing Dan on March 05, 2011, 11:31:48 PM
Obama was just grabbing low hanging fruit. He wasn't following a plan. A plan would have connected the dots.
He was trying to create jobs in places that needed them by building projects that stimulate sustainable development that were already shovel ready. It was really an opportunity to kill two birds with one massive stone. This goal will still be accomplished with the $2.4 billion, it just won't happen in Florida.
Obama's emphasis on "shovel ready" projects reflects the same disregard for planning that made such a mess out of the Better Jacksonville "Plan". My hope is that the $2.4 billion will be diverted to high speed rail projects in the southeast that will be the outcome of better planning, and therefore that Jacksonville will now be better off than we would have been if Scott hadn't intervened.
It pains me to say all of this, because I fully realize that Scott is no friend of planning.
The majority of it won't. The SEHSR plan is so preliminary that diverting the lion's share of those funds to such a project would defeat the central purpose of the stimulus dollars. My guess is that they give them some millions for additional studies and the bulk will be shifted to regions that have plans ready for construction.
Quote from: thelakelander on March 06, 2011, 12:53:04 PM
The majority of it won't. The SEHSR plan is so preliminary that diverting the lion's share of those funds to such a project would defeat the central purpose of the stimulus dollars. My guess is that they give them some millions for additional studies and the bulk will be shifted to regions that have plans ready for construction.
Better to have a good plan than a lousy project.
Again, I think its very premature to say the Florida rollout would have been lousy. The private sector was never given the opportunity to put together proposals for their specific technology and operational plans. In addition, its also premature to say the SEHSR plan will be a good product. They haven't even done initial studies for most of it.
I'm not saying that any specific project is lousy. I'm just saying that money is often wasted on projects that are not well planned.
gotcha!
So we agree?
I agree that we were too close to the RFP to kill this for any reason other than pandering.
I'm not happy about what Scott did.
I'd like to think that the FL HSR project would have been good for Jacksonville if it had been allowed to proceed.
BUT...
Given that Scott did kill the FL HSR project I am now looking for a way that Jacksonville could benefit from an investment in HSR that would be somewhere outside of FL.
In addition, and without commenting on any specific HSR projects in Florida or elsewhere, I generally favor projects that are not based on a "ready-fire-aim" approach.
Quote from: Dashing Dan on March 06, 2011, 02:04:04 PM
So we agree?
Yes, although my concern is not so much Jacksonville on the high speed rail front, as it is on the political relationship between the state and federal government for moving our local transit projects forward.
I share your concern over what a damaged federal-state relationship might portend for Jacksonville transit projects.
So what can we do? Disavow Gov. Scott? Jacksonville got him elected in the first place!
All I can think of to suggest right now is to try to find worthwhile transit projects that could be carried out with minimal funding and with help from our new mayor, our current planning director, and our friends at the JTA.
Here are the low hanging fruit, imo:
1. Restructuring and better utlization out of the current bus system and BRT proposals to tie the urban core neighborhoods together with reliable frequent transit service.
2. Better utilization and integration of the skyway (with bus service and downtown development plans).
3. Take advantage of the mobility plan to get the initial streetcar and S-line fixed-transit projects off the ground.
To expand on your #1 and #2 options, I'd like to see the downtown trolleys restored to at least what they were like in 2008, i.e.
1-Bring back the Laura Ocean trolley
2-Shorten the Bay St. and Beaver St. routes, and
3-Increase frequencies on all routes
If we could add trolley routes that would extend from skyway stations into San Marco and Springfield, that would be nice too.
Quote from: thelakelander on March 06, 2011, 10:45:40 AM
Quote from: Ocklawaha on March 06, 2011, 12:03:41 AM
I never said I wouldn't serve OIA, but the rail line comes out of DOWNTOWN or it fails to serve Florida residents en masse.
Not true. Orlando isn't Jacksonville, DC or Philly. DT Orlando was never the center of the Central Florida region. It wasn't before Disney and it certainly isn't now. Sunrail would provide the connection you seek, while also tying in with HSR.
Damn Lakelander, did you ever live in Orlando? You are right, I was in Orlando BEFORE DISNEY (RTC then NTC), in the Navy (lived on Central near DT), and again for 10 years in Heathrow... Orlando was known more for citrus and cows then it was anything else. Sunrail as I pointed out, while useful for a weekday morning or evening commute, will completely fail during off peak or weekend and holidays when it WON'T OPERATE! Sure you could adjust it, but you'll never eliminate the waits for two changes, and the 20-30 minute trip to Sand Lake. Timing would have to be perfect for a seamless connection and poof the whole thing is up in smoke. No matter how you cut it, it will take MUCH longer to go from end to end on the Orlando-Tampa "Nowhere Express," (because the geniuses managed to route it away from all of the FLORIDIANS) from either the airport or Sunrail then it would to drive the 69 VW Microbus full of aging hippies. QuoteQuoteAs far as being centrally located, I lived in Orlando, Heathrow area for 10 years, and I'd rather ride a pogo stick to Apopka then a car to OIA. I can point to a few hundred others from DOWNTOWN north that feel the same way.
Heathrow is a small little community on the northern fringe of the metro area. It doesn't make sense to bypass the center of the region to provide better transit to the northern fringe. If you want to go to Tampa, it may be better for you to drive if you are a local resident staying in Heathrow. However, if you want to travel to Miami, the train would be quicker. All in all, it really depends on your specific location within the region, which applies to any mass transit system in any city.
Yeah, I'm WELL AWARE of where Heathrow is, simply look at the map, Orlando DOWNTOWN is nearly the geographic center of the metro area. The airport is anything but the "center of activity" in the metro. Ask anyone from Orlando when was the last movie, dry cleaning, child care, grocery, pharmacy, building permit, traffic fine, Magic Game, fireworks show, play, city park, or nightclub they visited AT THE AIRPORT! Didn't happen in Orlando, and doesn't happen here. Orlando may not be Jacksonville, but like Jacksonville's JIA, OIA IS A BUILDING - DOWNTOWN IS A PLACE. QuoteQuoteThat location is so bad, that most people I know would rather drive 2-4 hours to Tampa then take a 20 minute train ride if it also meant a 30 minute trip to OIA, a 30 minute search for a parking spot and to get to the terminal plus a $19 dollar daily parking rate (add it to the train fare, then add my wife and any kids) then a 30 mintue wait for a train. About 110 minutes on a 20 minute flying train Orlando-Tampa and I'd still be faster in my 69 VW Microbus.
THAT'S WHAT THE FUSS IS ABOUT OIA!
As mentioned before, it really depends on your location within the region (which applies anywhere). Those in Polk and Brevard (both significantly larger than Seminole County in population) sing a completely different tune. They would have had the opportunity to leave their cars in their community, take a quick train ride to the airport (not paying for any parking in process) or transfer to Sunrail to access other areas of the Orlando region.
In closing, railing against OIA because its not as convenient to 400,000 residents on the fringe (btw, they would still have Sunrail tying them in) than it is to millions of Central Florida residents and tourist centers on not paying attention to the larger picture of accepting the established growth pattern of the region in general.
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/_bQsuhPJduqQ/TXQoA1IlimI/AAAAAAAAEqI/epcj4O0_NVU/s800/AAAA-mco-CONVENIENCE.jpg)
A little clip art to demonstrate the airports lower right field location and downtown's central locale.
If I had access to the internet on my computer, I would post a regional aerial without the added green ovelay. OIA serves as a hub to adjacent metro areas and it's definitey not all trees as your graphic attempts to illustrate. If I want to see a game or play, visit a city park or pull a building permit, I could go just about anywhere in Central Florida. When I lived in Lakeland, I got to enjoy things in three adjacent metros. The region is much larger and interconnected than what you are illustrating. Any true regional plan is going to have to consider and accept the area's landscape for what it is and best work within those confines. Get the funds and infrastructure in and you'll have the opportunity to coordinate service. Throw the baby out with the bath water, without truly vetting options in detail, then get used to not seeing anything get done.
Quote from: Dashing Dan on March 06, 2011, 03:33:29 PM
To expand on your #1 and #2 options, I'd like to see the downtown trolleys restored to at least what they were like in 2008, i.e.
1-Bring back the Laura Ocean trolley
2-Shorten the Bay St. and Beaver St. routes, and
3-Increase frequencies on all routes
If we could add trolley routes that would extend from skyway stations into San Marco and Springfield, that would be nice too.
Buses the duplicate the Skyway like the Bay Street Potato-Chip-Truck-Thinks-Its-A-Trolley thingamajigger should be annulled and rerouted into fresh territory. Then when we introduce REAL TROLLEY'S I vote that we donate the entire clinking, clanking, clattering collection of caliginous junk that JTA thinks are trolley's as artificial reefs... though they are so damn ugly they might damage fish breeding programs.
Ending routes at the Skyway at Jacksonville Terminal - Kings Avenue and Rosa Parks, rather then running them through the 20 minute downtown loop would go far in improving the situation, but the downtown east of Central Station is a no mans land for transit if we move in that direction. The whatchamacallit doodad thingy contraptions could launch from Central Station and Rosa Parks and serve the entire Eastside. As the mobility plan falls into place (please God) and on the heals of a San Marco Extension, we could phase the Stadium SKYWAY line into:
Phase 1 - Central Station - BOA - Newnan - Police Dept.
Phase 2 - Police Dept - Shipyards - Randolph and/or Everbank Field Station.
Meanwhile Streetcar Phase 2, moving up Newnan to Beaver to Randolph/Stadium Area would be a no brainer.
No bus is going to work trying to bridge the railroad into San Marco without making an end run through Brooklyn to 95, hence over the Fuller Warren and South on San Marco. Direct service from downtown will belong to the Skyway until we find a way over or under the railroad. In this light I would suggest looking at transit/busway ramps off the Acosta - over the FEC RY - and down in front of Aetna. A second busway overpass at Gary Street would allow a complete southside loop with the Skyway on the north half and busway on the south. (http://www.dogcaught.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/08/towermax1.jpg)
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/_bQsuhPJduqQ/TXQ9KM-EbrI/AAAAAAAAEq0/xkX-EDTPgDw/s800/A-STREETCAR-NIGHTMARE.JPG)
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/_bQsuhPJduqQ/TXRBSjM_q3I/AAAAAAAAErI/w2YRLksDThQ/s800/STREETCAR-TRI-MET-LRT.jpg)
OCKLAWAHA
I agree. A chunk of change could be saved, routes streamlined and the skyway's ridership increased by simply eliminating the insane amount of route duplication and bus loops within downtown alone. This is why I believe its shortsighted for anyone to consider immediately shutting down the skyway.
Last two posts on the money.
Quote from: thelakelander on March 06, 2011, 08:26:54 PM
If I had access to the internet on my computer, I would post a regional aerial without the added green ovelay. OIA serves as a hub to adjacent metro areas and it's definitey not all trees as your graphic attempts to illustrate. If I want to see a game or play, visit a city park or pull a building permit, I could go just about anywhere in Central Florida. When I lived in Lakeland, I got to enjoy things in three adjacent metros. The region is much larger and interconnected than what you are illustrating. Any true regional plan is going to have to consider and accept the area's landscape for what it is and best work within those confines. Get the funds and infrastructure in and you'll have the opportunity to coordinate service. Throw the baby out with the bath water, without truly vetting options in detail, then get used to not seeing anything get done.
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/_bQsuhPJduqQ/TXRGK1QBynI/AAAAAAAAErg/AJeL-vCqvqU/s800/A-A-A-ORLANDO-METRO.jpg)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_bQsuhPJduqQ/TXRNbKTek7I/AAAAAAAAErs/92BePc3Yua4/s800/RAILROADS-CENTRAL-FL-ABANDONED-CURRENT.jpg)
Dozens of abandoned railroad line possibilities and we choose a freeway? These idiots pissed me off!
Lastly, the SEHSR project is NOT years or decades away and Florida WAS shovel ready... More like SEHSR is already past the intro phases, and the trains are already running, and getting faster and better by the day... NC just added another new train Raleigh-Charlotte, and Virginia-NC appear to have the old 'S' line between Raleigh and Richmond in the bag. Using railroad rights of way that we already have, and using conventional rail upgraded toward 150 mph. Realistically these boys and girls are light years ahead of Florida's project. The Achilles heal of the whole FLHSR mess is the fact that we have this crazy notion that we can skip from A to Z without passing B-Y...
Hopefully the doctor gives me a decent bill of health and I'll see y'all at dinner? ;)OCKLAWAHA
On behalf of the downtown (un)trolleys:
I work on Forsyth Street between Newnan and Market. The skyway doesn't work for me, but a north south (un)trolley - running parallel with the skyway but a few blocks farther east - would take me from where I work up to Hemming Plaza and back. The Laura Ocean (un)trolley would have done that job, but it was "suspended" in 2009 after running for only about a year. So bring it back!
On their two existing downtown routes, the (un)trolleys run so infrequently that it almost always makes more sense to walk. A better set of downtown (un)trolley routes would complement the skyway, and at the same time they would allow the other JTA buses to run back and forth to downtown, instead of having to wind around in circles and corkscrews. When those routes were set up in 2008, their routes were shorter and that allowed the (un)trolleys on those routes to run more frequently.
For reasons that have been stated by others, I strongly favor an extension of the skyway, from the terminal at Kings Ave, beneath I-95 and out to San Marco.
I'd also favor turning the Bay Street (un)trolley route back at the Central skyway station instead of running beneath the skyway to the convention center station.
Ock, I know you're old school but the Bee Line (or whatever they are calling it these days) is a superior path between Orlando and Brevard County than the abandoned circuitous railroad lines shown on your map. In addition, why the continued focus on just Orlando and no thought on the region on a larger scale? I grew up in Winter Haven, which isn't even shown on your map of pine trees, yet that county, which is a separate metro area, has nearly 600,000 people. A drive from my parent's house to Disney takes 20 minutes and OIA about 40-45. You have the same issue with Brevard and the Port Canaveral area. Throw in the millions of tourist between Disney and the airport and there is a strong argument for tapping into that market on phase 1. When I get back in town, I'll pull a graphic illustrating what I'm getting at.
When you look at the greater picture, a HSR station at OIA doesn't automatically equate to failure, imo. Especially pulling the plug on $2.4 billion without giving the rail professionals a chance at putting together their own plans and modifications as a part of their RFP submittals. Anyway, my main concern is more about the Governor's actions screwing the pooch on the $2.4 billion in a manner that could hurt our opportunities at economic development, job creation and securing state and federal dollars for local rail projects.
Here is a decent graphic from the Orlando Sentinel that shows the path of Florida's HSR phase 1 and Sunrail, along with their estimated completion dates (before the events of 2011).
(http://media.trb.com/media/graphic/2010-02/52285845.jpg)
did you guys think rick scott will approve sunrail or will he kill it like the high speed rail
Likely gone... THE ONE BIG PROJECT THAT WE NEEDED X 3! Because to Scott "A good train is NO TRAIN." This is the same guy that said "freeways are more sustainable."
OCKLAWAHA
If he doesn't kill Sunrail, he's a hypocrite. HSR didn't require any state money. Sunrail requires a lot more and will have significantly less ridership.
At 9am, I'll be sitting down with Melissa Ross on First Coast Connect to talk HSR and its potential impact on Jacksonville.
http://www.wjct.org/radio/shows/wjct_news
Quote from: yapp1850 on March 07, 2011, 09:07:17 PM
did you guys think rick scott will approve sunrail or will he kill it like the high speed rail
I'm betting he keeps it...so as to keep House leader Dean Cannon happy
of course I also thought he'd keep HSR :(
Quote from: thelakelander on March 08, 2011, 06:13:42 AM
At 9am, I'll be sitting down with Melissa Ross on First Coast Connect to talk HSR and its potential impact on Jacksonville.
http://www.wjct.org/radio/shows/wjct_news
well done sir!
Great job on the radio Lake. I did not know the HSR line could also be used for local, commuter and increased freight capacities. Just as they do with the NE HSR. Great point. I think you pointed out the domino effect very well and that this is not just an isolated project but a first step.
When the callers kept pointing out that they and the governor think that it will cost the taxpayers in over runs and not serve any public use you responded perfectly with the line about him not providing any information to back up the claims that he knows better than the professionals who have done the studies and the private sector that he is preventing from making proposals.
Thanks. Some of the phone calls were pretty interesting. I'm suprised that many people still don't realize that the Tampa/Orlando route was only phase one of a much larger plan and that the second phase to Miami would have immediately broken ground after the initial segment was completed. It seems that we have a difficult time looking at the bigger picture. Overall, I felt that people in general don't really understand the concept being Florida's HSR plan, but mass transit in general.
Looking back, in response to the female caller who stated you need density for mass transit to be successful, I should have responded by stating if you want density, you must first invest in the infrastructure that stimulates that style of development, with some place like Salt Lake City or Charlotte as successful sprawling example to follow. Instead I believe I mentioned that it was more important to make sure mass transit takes its riders to places where people want to go, moreso than what the overall average density level of a region happens to be.