Metro Jacksonville

QuoteWhy Would Scott be So Stubborn & Irresponsible?
More likely than not, I think the reason for Scott rejecting the funds is basically to continue the new extreme Republican party’s complete obstructionism to everything the Obama administration tries to do. They want to make Obama look like a failure by ruining the United States (or their portion of the United States) while he’s in office. It’s a political move that essentially means holding the public hostage.

Florida Support for High-Speed Rail
If you think Scott is playing to the preferences of the voters, think again. 67% of Floridians polled on the matter support state or federal funding for high-speed rail and only 17% oppose it.

Floridians want high-speed rail. They are tired of traffic jams and want the economic growth and job creation that comes with the project, which is nearly entirely funded by the federal government anyway. They don’t want to go down the route of Wisconsin and be the laughing stock of the United States.

http://planetsave.com/2011/03/02/florida-gov-rick-scott-gets-sued-for-stupidity-regarding-high-speed-rail/

Did I mention yet that Tea Party Governor Rick Scott is a LIAR?

His repeated statement is such a joke and a certified LIE: that he is protecting the tax-payer

Quote
Joyner said, “The issue at hand is the ability to create a state-of-the-art rail line, at no cost to the taxpayers, and put people to work now and in the future."

She added that “Stopping this project not only went against everything the governor promised during his campaign, it goes against his constitutional authority as well. The money Florida taxpayers sent to Washington should return to benefit Florida. Unfortunately, litigation was the only way to make that happen.”

"We need to let (Scott) know that this is not a monarchy and he is not a king," Joyner said.

Altman added, “Our founding fathers created a system of three separate and co-equal branches of government. To maintain the integrity of our democracy, it is incumbent that we assert the rights of the people who elect their representatives. And the Supreme Court is the proper venue to seek relief.”

The emergency petition was filed because of a one-week deadline given by U.S. Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood for Florida to accept the rail funding. Altman and Jones have since asked for an extension on that deadline as the case is being investigated



Read more: http://www.allheadlinenews.com/briefs/articles/90037459?FL%20lawmakers%20sue%20governor%20for%20rejecting%20high-speep%20rail%20money#ixzz1FU4dzkwO

Quote
Joseph Little, professor emeritus at the University of Florida law school who specializes in state Constitutional law, said he believes Altman and Joyner have a strong case.

“In my opinion, once the Legislature enacts the statute and directs that something be done, then the governor’s job is to enforce that statute,” Little said. “He can say he doesn’t like it, but he has to enforce it.”



Read more: http://www.miamiherald.com/2011/03/02/2094553_p2/scott-again-slams-high-speed-rail.html#ixzz1FVGOgsfw

QuoteIf you think Scott is playing to the preferences of the voters, think again. 67% of Floridians polled on the matter support state or federal funding for high-speed rail and only 17% oppose it.

Kinda sucks these folks will take the time to answer a telephone poll... but cannot take 15 minutes to vote...

Quote from: FayeforCure on March 02, 2011, 10:25:11 PM

Quote
Joseph Little, professor emeritus at the University of Florida law school who specializes in state Constitutional law, said he believes Altman and Joyner have a strong case.

"In my opinion, once the Legislature enacts the statute and directs that something be done, then the governor's job is to enforce that statute," Little said. "He can say he doesn't like it, but he has to enforce it."



Read more: http://www.miamiherald.com/2011/03/02/2094553_p2/scott-again-slams-high-speed-rail.html#ixzz1FVGOgsfw

It appears this guy is predicting a win for both sides.  He'll be right, either way.

QuoteJoseph Little, an emeritus law professor at the University of Florida and a constitutional law expert, said he thinks the Supreme Court may well side with Scott. "It's highly likely," Little said.

One of Scott's strongest arguments, Little said, is that Altman and Joyner do not have the legal standing to file the suit. The two are acting as private citizens, he said, and not with the backing of the Legislature.

To argue before the court, Little said, the two lawmakers would have to show they might suffer a loss greater than the public at large. In Little's opinion, they have not met that hurdle.

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/breakingnews/os-high-speed-rail-respond-20110302,0,2266145.story

No doubt Faye, I'm surprised it's not 98% of Floridians... Because something like:

99% of them believe monorail is the train of the future

99.6% of them think you can build HSR anywhere, just build it and they will come

90% think Florida HSR is an honest effort to build the best railroad in the nation

QuotePoll: U.S. hiding knowledge of aliens

CNN, June 15, 1997

original source  |  fair use notice

Summary: Nearly 50 years since an alleged UFO was sighted at Roswell, New Mexico, a CNN/Time poll shows that 80 percent of Americans think the government is hiding knowledge of the existence of extraterrestrial life forms.

Nearly 50 years since an alleged UFO was sighted at Roswell, New Mexico, a new CNN/Time poll released Sunday shows that 80 percent of Americans think the government is hiding knowledge of the existence of extraterrestrial life forms.

While nearly three-quarters of the 1,024 adults questioned for the poll said they had never seen or known anyone who saw a UFO, 54 percent believe intelligent life exists outside Earth.

Sixty-four percent of the respondents said that aliens have contacted humans, half said they've abducted humans, and 37 percent said they have contacted the U.S. government. The poll has a margin of error of plus or minus 3 percentage points.

But only 9 percent said they believed there were any aliens near the Hale-Bopp comet, which recently passed close enough to Earth to be seen with the naked eye.

Some "ufologists" believed a spacecraft was hidden near the comet, and members of the Heaven's Gate cult committed suicide, believing that they would be taken aboard the craft and returned "home."

What happened in Roswell?

As for the Roswell incident, nearly two-thirds of the respondents to the poll said they believed that a UFO crash-landed in a field outside the New Mexico town 50 years ago next month.

In one of the most famous UFO "sightings" in U.S. history, Roswell residents in 1947 saw lights in the night sky, followed by a loud explosion. A rancher found the "crash site" and removed a large piece of debris, storing it in his shed.

A few days later, Air Force officials from nearby Roswell Air Force Base inspected the site and the debris, and issued a press release announcing the recovery of a "flying disc." The Air Force quickly retracted that statement, and claimed the debris was from a weather balloon.

But countless statements -- some from military personnel -- appeared to contradict the Air Force's revised position. And several "witnesses" claimed to have seen bodies of dead aliens whisked away by the military.

Roswell today capitalizes on its fame as a UFO crash site -- whether or not it actually happened -- and is hosting a 50th anniversary celebration the first week of July.

Friend or foe?
Most people -- 91 percent -- told the pollsters that they had never had contact with aliens or known anyone who had. A similar number -- 93 percent -- said they had never been abducted or known anyone whisked away by beings from another planet.

But if they do meet someone from a galaxy far, far away, 44 percent said they expect to be treated as friends, while 26 percent think they'll be treated as enemies.

Thirty-nine percent don't expect aliens to appear very humanoid, although 35 percent said they probably look "somewhat" human.

SOURCE:  http://www.ufoevidence.org/documents/doc920.htm

Quote(CBS)  This Halloween may be filled with trick-or-treaters in scary costumes, but for more than one in five Americans, some costumes might be real: they told CBS News pollsters they have seen a real-life ghost in some form. And whether or not they've seen one, even more Americans believe that ghosts actually do exist.

Nearly half of Americans say they believe in ghosts, or that the dead can return in certain places and situations.

DO YOU BELIEVE IN GHOSTS?

Yes
48%
No
45%

Women are more likely to say they believe in ghosts than are men: 56 percent of women believe, while 38 percent of men do. More than half of younger Americans aged 18 to 45 believe in ghosts; those over 45 are less likely.

More than one in five Americans says they have seen a ghost themselves, or have felt themselves to be in the presence of one.

HAVE YOU PERSONALLY SEEN OR FELT THE PRESENCE OF A GHOST?

Yes
22%

No
77%

On this question, too, there are age and gender differences: women are about twice as likely as men to say they've seen a ghost. More than one-quarter of younger Americans under 45 say they have encountered one; those over 45 are much less likely to say this.

SOURCE:  http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/10/29/opinion/polls/main994766.shtml

Hey, we could increase tourism about 1,000% if we could run high speed trains, powered by alien space technology and filled with ghosts... just saying. Orlando could even bill it as another amusement ride.


OCKLAWAHA

Well yeah, why bother polling Floridians, KING SCOTT knows where it's at.

See how well that worked out for Bush who despised polls too!!!

A couple things. First, you do know it's spelled liAr, right? If you're going to put something in all caps to draw attention to it, make sure it's spelled right.

Second, who wouldn't support $2.4 billion in free money??  That doesn't necessarily mean you support HSR.

Also, you can't use a voluntary survey's results as credible fact.  In the next 20 minutes, I could do a phone survey and find 100% of people who don't want HSR.  This survey probably had selection bias, false or confusing wording, and again, it doesn't fully address the rail line, just funding.

Quote from: Captain Zissou on March 03, 2011, 10:44:12 AM
A couple things. First, you do know it's spelled liAr, right? If you're going to put something in all caps to draw attention to it, make sure it's spelled right.

Second, who wouldn't support $2.4 billion in free money??  That doesn't necessarily mean you support HSR.

Also, you can't use a voluntary survey's results as credible fact.  In the next 20 minutes, I could do a phone survey and find 100% of people who don't want HSR.  This survey probably had selection bias, false or confusing wording, and again, it doesn't fully address the rail line, just funding.

Corrected.

Well it is Scott who according to his own words is worried about funding:

Quote"I represent the taxpayers. This does not make sense," Scott said.

He also said fears the state would have to pay back the money to the federal government if the project failed.

But a letter that the federal government sent late last month to the mayors of Orlando, Tampa and Lakeland promised the administration would not seek reimbursement of the $2.4 billion if the project were abandoned.

That vow also goes for the cities, which have offered to take responsibility for the $2.7 billion project, as well as the state, according to the letter, dated Feb. 28 and signed by John Porcari, deputy secretary of the U.S. Department of Transportation.

One of Scott's biggest complaints about the train is that. But the letter disputes that claim. (Hence Scott is a LIAR, what else is new?)

"In light of the Cities' recent proposal, FRA (Federal Rail Administration) will make clear in any future cooperative agreements for the Tampa-Orlando project that the state of Florida does not bear any financial responsibility for the reimbursement obligation,'' the letter says.

Attempts to reach Scott and federal transportation officials were not successful.

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/breakingnews/os-high-speed-rail-respond-20110302,0,2266145.story

So polling Floridians about funding HSR, is quite appropriate and often used for policy decisions.

All this tells me is the bidding process should continue and its foolish to cut it off without allowing the rail professionals the opportunity to take over.  If it's feasible, it will move forward.  If it's not, it won't.  We don't need an Ock or Rick Scott to make that decision before rail companies, who may be willing to invest millions of their own, are given the opportunity to bid on it.

Quote from: FayeforCure on March 03, 2011, 10:37:43 AM
Well yeah, why bother polling Floridians, KING SCOTT knows where it's at.

See how well that worked out for Bush who despised polls too!!!

Well, here is a hilarious intermezzo of the King's Speech:

Someone please embed for me:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SnxNnJYziMY

Quote from: thelakelander on March 03, 2011, 10:57:16 AM
All this tells me is the bidding process should continue and its foolish to cut it off without allowing the rail professionals the opportunity to take over.  If it's feasible, it will move forward.  If it's not, it won't.  We don't need an Ock or Rick Scott to make that decision before rail companies, who may be willing to invest millions of their own, are given the opportunity to bid on it.

Amazing, that my opinion isn't needed... Really guys, do you think I like being against this rail project? Do you think I just decided one day it would make good argument material? Not! I will continue to strike against this thing until such time as FDOT or Florida Rail Enterprise steps up, corrects the applications and data, and suggests that the route itself may be changed (to line up with the corridor, and to actually serve Floridians) by the bidders. Until then, GIVE EM HELL.

The companies in this race admit that this line will be a loser, but some of them are willing to suck that up if it "get's them in the door to build more and successful lines in the USA." My contention is simple, they are going to bid based on BAD DATA or FABRICATIONS, so when it fails we have set ourselves up to take the fall.

Secondly, if it fails like I think it will fail if it's built according to the State Plan, don't expect there to be another investment in HSR in general, or in the Southeast in particular.

OCKLAWAHA

The bidding process should take place regardless of what any of us think on this particular issue.  Don't take it personal, its not a knock on anyone.  With $2.4 billion in funding on the line, its more logical to vet with facts and statistical data instead of opinions.  Regardless of how this turns out, that's my position.

Been keeping an un-in-the-know eye on this thread because it's interesting, and may ultimately affect me, but I'm going to defer to Ock on this one - not because of his extensive railroad knowledge, but because of the cloudy view that I percieve the world in general.

If we receive the HSR funds and build a workable system, then whomever was the highest bidder, starts here and expands across the country with the sole rights that they negotiated for to begin with.  Good for Florida, good for them (the euro co. that gets the contract).  

If it bombs here, we have the country's version of the Skyway - an unused eyesore that takes a few people nowhere.  Florida now became the reason that HSR in the country is unfeasible and we have a black-eye as a state.

If we defer the money to some other state, then they alone will bear the burden of making it successful, but they also will bear the burden if it fails miserably.  If it's a success, then plans will start popping up around the country - Florida could very well be next in line, and if it's a failure, then we, as a state, can point our fingers and tell them what they should have done.

This (HSR) is supposed to free the country from foriegn oil, eliminate highway congestion and affordably allow the common man to tavel 180 mph across the country for $.05/mile.  The expectations have been set extremely high.  How could a country as advanced as we fail in somehting that so is common overseas?

Long and short, if it works, we'll have it soon enough and CA can say I told you so.  If it doesn't, we won't be left standing there with no chair when the music stops.

You can't live your life or plan your community in fear.  Why does this infrastructure only have to be used for HSR?  Instead of talking about this only from a HSR perspective, we should be talking about how to best utilize the infrastructure that would be constructed by the $2.4 billion.  Again, all this leads to is more reason to issue the RFP out to the private sector.  For all we know, they may suggest modifications within their specific plans that make this whole project more cost effective and beneficial for all parties involved.

I would in no way suggest we should start with HSR unless that is the only transit we have money for. Not vetting it with the private rail companies just weeks before they get the RFP is political pandering at best ego maniacal at worst.  You would at least think the Governor and his staff could find a reason that wasn't such an obvious lie to kill it.  Perhaps he enjoys the fact that he can say I am not doing this because the sky is plaid and there is nothing anyone can do to King Scott.

Quote from: thelakelander on March 03, 2011, 08:34:45 PM
The bidding process should take place regardless of what any of us think on this particular issue.  Don't take it personal, its not a knock on anyone.  With $2.4 billion in funding on the line, its more logical to vet with facts and statistical data instead of opinions.  Regardless of how this turns out, that's my position.

I guess they are afraid, VERY AFRAID, that many of these 8 consortiums can actually make it work!! Oh it is sooooooo inconvenient to be faced with facts rather than speculation.

QuoteHere is a partial list of private industry that were part of the 8 consortiums that were waiting for the invitation to competitively bid:

Cintra (Spain), Soares De Costa (Portugal), Ferrovial Agroman (Spain), Talgo, Inc (Spain), Bechtel (US), SNCF America (France), AMTRAK (US), Samsung (S Korea), Parsons (US), Hyundai Rotem (S Korea), Siemens (Germany) Veolia (France), Global Via USA (Spain), FCC (Spain), Skanska (Sweden), Central Japan Railway Company (Japan), Fluor Corp (US), Balfour Beatty Rail (United Kingdom), CSR SF (China), ACS/Dragados USA (Spain), GE Transportation (US), Odebrecht (Brazil), Alstom (France), Virgin Group (United Kingdom), Vinci Concessions (USA/France), OHL USA (Spain)

http://floridaindependent.com/22623/paula-dockery-private-sector-could-have-absorbed-high-speed-rail-risk.

You afraid too Ock?

QuoteScott may be speeding toward his own political fall â€" his poll numbers are slipping â€" but at the moment he seems to have the momentum to bring down the Obama administration’s most “do-able” passenger rail project. So far, it’s unclear whether the White House wants to stand up and fight Scott or redirect the federal funds to places like California and New York where the governors are openly campaigning for the money.

U.S. Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood has given Scott until the end of Friday to accept or reject the federal rail funds. Doubtless we know what Scott will do. The Florida story, however, won’t be over until the local entities give up on their plan to take over the project and the state Supreme Court weighs in on the constitutional issues raised by the Altman-Joyner suit.

http://www.progressivefix.com/gov-scott-stages-a-trainwreck-in-florida

Quote from: FayeforCure on March 03, 2011, 09:12:02 PM
I guess they are afraid, VERY AFRAID, that many of these 8 consortiums can actually make it work!! Oh it is sooooooo inconvenient to be faced with facts rather than speculation.

You afraid too Ock?

Just the opposite Faye, I'm forecasting that they might indeed make it work and that success will come at a huge price to whoever is unfortunate enough to buy into our bogus numbers. But they'll do it and sacrifice themselves in order to get into a game they think will play out in our country. I've been around this industry for 40 years and if it happens that Florida HSR is a loss leader, it will shut down ANY chance of a similar project anywhere else in the USA.

Should it by some miracle succeed of it's own volition, then I'll be more then happy to eat my words and become a convert, but I'm not expecting such from Florida. California YES, Illinois and Missouri YES, North Carolina and Washington and Maine and Oregon, YES, but Florida? HELL NO! With most transportation projects over the years we always manage to come out the shit-faced idiots... We collect these badges here like our Anna Nicole Smith weeping Judge, or our infamous hanging chads, or the Outer Beltway.

If it ends up as I suspect, something worse then the Skyway on a massive scale, then too will I support it and try and find a way to effect changes that will make it work, but if there is a chance to save us from ourselves I'm all for waiting another 4 years to get it right.

OCKLAWAHA

You'll be waiting for more than another 4 years.  Miss the Obama term and you could easily be waiting another 20 or more.  After all, its taken us almost 30 years to get to this point.  I still don't see what's wrong with allowing the professionals to look at this before giving up $2.4 billion in federal funding for nothing in return.

I keep reading, "Take the red pill." - Let's put out the RFP what harm can come from it. Or "Take the blue pill." - If this happens it will be a travesty.

Why hasn't anyone in this country already eaten both the pills and seen where the rabbit hole leads.  This is America - home of the capitalist.  If this was going to be such a goldmine, then why isn't it here already.  This system has been popular in Europe since the mid 60's early 70's?  China in the 90's?  For whatever reason it hasn't grabbed hold here.  Why?

Has anyone thought about the fact that the people pushing for it are the people that will be actually building the train-cars and selling us the technology that we apparently don't already have?  They are the one's with nothing to lose at all.

Non-RedNeck Westsider, what harm can come of simply putting out an RFP?  If its not feasible, it will die......just like the Outer Beltway situation.  When did we become so afraid to invest in 19th century technology?

Intercity rail is pretty popular in the Northeast.  They also utilize the Northeast corridor for more than one particular use or system.  We should try and plan to utilize our infrastructure in a similar manner.

As for the private sector building it years ago, its probably the same reason you don't see the private sector building highways.

In my simple mind, if you put out an RFP, technically, you don't have anything to lose, but technically a company submitting a proposal doesn't either.  They can propose that this will work and that ridership will be that, but they can't physically put people on the train.  And if it succeeds, they're heroes.  If not, they can leave and not worry about it.  Who's going to chase them over the pond.  Either way they're going to get paid to lay the tracks.

Rail is successful in the NE because they're been forced to use trains to get around, albiet underground.  It's second nature to a good bit of the city dwellers.  And when they do move out of the city, driving is a second thought, not the first.  Rail is successful in the NE because of the Acela - DC to Boston with NYC, Baltimore, Philly, Newark?, and other smallish cities.  It's about a 7 hr trip from one end to the other and most of the passengers are students & workers travelling to a city that they can't afford to drive in.  It's not the cost as much as it's the convienence - a lot of people in a little space. The same concept that fuels trains in EU and China and Japan.

I'm not saying that they can't tweak the route or make better suggestions, but who really travels from Orlando to Tampa that would think it a better idea to ride the train than to drive.  How many people live in Newark and work in Boston or NYC where it's a headache to drive? 

 

 

QuoteDulles GreenwayThe Dulles Greenway is a privately owned toll road in Northern Virginia, running for 12.53 miles[1] (20.17 km) northwest from the end of the Dulles Toll Road to the Leesburg Bypass (U.S. Route 15/State Route 7). Although privately owned, the highway is also part of SR 267. The speed limit is 65 miles per hour (105 km/h).


The main toll plaza of the Dulles GreenwayThe road was privately built and is not a public asset. The current owner is "Toll Road Investors Partnership II" (TRIP II), which is a consortium of the Bryant/Crane Family LLC, the Franklin L. Haney Co.,[16] and Kellogg Brown & Root (KB&R). On August 31, 2005, Australian firm Macquarie Infrastructure Group announced that they had paid $533 million to TRIP II to acquire its 86.7% ownership of the Greenway, and were negotiating with KB&R for the remaining ownership rights.[17]

[edit] HistoryThe road was envisioned as early as the 1970s, when new residents were attracted to Loudoun County because of the relatively low cost of real estate. The Greenway proposal prompted the enactment of the Virginia Highway Corporation Act of 1988[18] that authorizes the construction of new toll roads without the use of eminent domain[19] under rates set by the Virginia Corporation Commission.[18] The law requires the facility to be turned over to the state after a stated time period.[20] The road was completed and opened in 1995, but the original owners defaulted on its loan due to lower than projected use.[21] It receives no public funds, was built with no subsidies, and is policed at its own expense, competing as a wholly private enterprise with the state-built and -maintained roads.[22] Tolls are computed to assure that the owner will recover the original investment plus a return on that investment. The losses incurred during the early years of the project are rolled forward to justify higher tolls in later years. Subsequent improvements, which were constructed in exchange for an extension of the toll road to 2056, include adding a third lane in each direction, resurfacing the entire road in 2009, and the construction of an improved eastbound exit ramp to Dulles Airport in 2009.[23]

[edit] DescriptionThe main toll plaza for the Dulles Greenway is located just west of the exits for Route 28 and Dulles Airport. Additional toll plazas are located on westbound entrance ramps and eastbound exit ramps with the exception of Battlefield Parkway (Exit 2) in Leesburg. The toll varies depending on the toll plaza traversed. As of 1 July 2010 (2010 -07-01)[update], the base toll collected for two-axle vehicles ranges from $2.60 ($2.15 with E-ZPass) at the Shreve Mill Rd plaza to $4.45 at the main plaza to and from the Dulles Toll Road (including 75 cents for the Dulles Toll Road toll).[24] The maximum toll rises to $5.25 (including the 75-cent Dulles Toll Road toll) during "congestion pricing" hours, which are 6:30 a.m. to 9:00 a.m. eastbound and 4:00 p.m. to 6:30 p.m. westbound.[24] A previous increase in the base fare and the introduction of congestion pricing occurred in January 2009. Tolls are set to rise an additional 30 cents per trip in 2012.[25] Vehicles traveling through the main toll plaza to or from the Dulles Toll Road are charged two tolls: one for the Dulles Toll Road, and one for the Dulles Greenway. Cash tolls are accepted during limited hours, and credit cards and E-ZPass transponder payments are accepted at all times.[26] The Greenway is also one of two routes where a subscription membership (exclusive to E-ZPass) allows for an additional discount. Alternate (free) routes include State Route 7 and State Route 28, both of which are generally more congested.[27]

The Greenway was later widened to six lanes from the mainline toll plaza to Leesburg. Use of the Greenway has grown, reflecting the increased population of Loudoun County. In 1996, the Greenway served 6.3 million trips, growing to 21 million in 2006.[27] However, as a result of the January 2009 toll increase, usage has dropped to an average of 47,490 tolls a day.[21]

[edit] ControversiesThe 1988 statute authorizing the private toll road permitted toll increases above the rate of inflation under a three-part test: (1) the new fee must not "materially discourage" drivers from using the road, (2) the company must not make more than a "reasonable rate of return" from the increase, and (3) the road's benefit must match its cost.[28] Critics claim that the drop in use following the 2009 toll increase is evidence that the test has not been met.[who?] Rep. Frank Wolf (R-Va.), the Congressman representing the area served by the road, stated, "It's highway robbery. It's a disgrace. Everyone knows that these tolls are ripping people off and there's not much we can do about it."[21]

QuoteThe road was completed and opened in 1995, but the original owners defaulted on its loan due to lower than projected use.

Although the original owners still ended up defaulting on the example you used, whenever you have a captive audience and limited (to no) competition in place, an exception to the general rule can be found.  Walt Disney World's monorail and bus system would be an example for the mass transit side.

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/47/Tronmonorail.jpg/500px-Tronmonorail.jpg)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walt_Disney_World_Monorail_System

If anything, we should look at the Dulles tollroad's original owner's failure as a potential example of what would happen to Florida's HSR if a private operator fell into default.  It appears the Dulles tollroad is still in operation and the taxpayers did not have to bear the brunt of its costs, as Rick Scott suggests that Florida taxpayers would.

Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on March 03, 2011, 11:47:22 PM
In my simple mind, if you put out an RFP, technically, you don't have anything to lose, but technically a company submitting a proposal doesn't either.  They can propose that this will work and that ridership will be that, but they can't physically put people on the train.  And if it succeeds, they're heroes.  If not, they can leave and not worry about it.  Who's going to chase them over the pond.  Either way they're going to get paid to lay the tracks.

All of the teams looking to bid on constructing and operating Florida's line would have had US companies as a part of them:

http://www.floridahighspeedrail.org/storage/interested-firms/HighSpeedRailTeams_111210.pdf

In the event, your fears are realized and an operator fails, look to your Dulles example of how things move forward.

QuoteRail is successful in the NE because they're been forced to use trains to get around, albiet underground.  It's second nature to a good bit of the city dwellers.  And when they do move out of the city, driving is a second thought, not the first.  Rail is successful in the NE because of the Acela - DC to Boston with NYC, Baltimore, Philly, Newark?, and other smallish cities.  It's about a 7 hr trip from one end to the other and most of the passengers are students & workers travelling to a city that they can't afford to drive in.  It's not the cost as much as it's the convienence - a lot of people in a little space. The same concept that fuels trains in EU and China and Japan.

This does not explain the success of rail in places like Salt Lake City, Saint Louis, San Diego, Houston and Dallas.  Pulling off a successful rail system isn't as difficult as we try to make it.

QuoteI'm not saying that they can't tweak the route or make better suggestions, but who really travels from Orlando to Tampa that would think it a better idea to ride the train than to drive.  How many people live in Newark and work in Boston or NYC where it's a headache to drive?

Not many people travel from Orlando to Tampa on a regular basis.  However, a ton travel the corridor for shorter trips (ex. Tampa to Lakeland, Lakeland to Disney or a Disney or I-Drive to Orlando's airport).  A simple service modification of mixing express and local trains along this route will make it more accessible to additional local trips (ex. DT Tampa to Seminole Hard Rock Casino, Plant City to Lakeland, etc.).  We can do this without giving up access to $2.4 billion.

 

Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on March 03, 2011, 11:47:22 PM
In my simple mind, if you put out an RFP, technically, you don't have anything to lose, but technically a company submitting a proposal doesn't either.  

technically, not true....these consortiums will be required to show bonding/financiang capacbility for close to $300 million....the banks will require pretty extensive studies and pretty strong assurances that this is feasible prior to releasing the money...given how lending has been going the last few years, I would assume they will be look at this thoroughly (and probably skeptically).

Quote from: thelakelander on March 04, 2011, 08:11:07 AM
Not many people travel from Orlando to Tampa on a regular basis.  However, a ton travel the corridor for shorter trips (ex. Tampa to Lakeland, Lakeland to Disney or a Disney or I-Drive to Orlando's airport). 

currently, about 10 million people travel I-4 each year....and that doesn't include the part in Orlando north of Disney!

That was kind of my point - the original owners did default.  Then it was purchased by Macquarie - and it  has been operating at a loss ever since - because of loan payments, not because it wasn't generating revenue over typical O & M costs.

QuoteI would assume they will be look at this thoroughly (and probably skeptically).

And my assumption is that they probably already have looked at it skeptically and thouroughly and is the reason that they aren't willing to assume the risk.  What's a 300M investment if your looking at 2.4B in guaranteed returns.

What is your alternative?  I-4 operates at a larger deficit every year.  Adding lanes to it will cost us a lot more than $2.4 billion and will require state dollars.  In addition, using the infrastructure for more than HSR (train wrap advertising, commuter rail, TOD, naming rights, etc.) will give you the ability to generate additional revenue.  For example, Austin's Capital Metro's rail line is used for commuter rail and freight.

Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on March 04, 2011, 08:26:44 AM

QuoteI would assume they will be look at this thoroughly (and probably skeptically).

And my assumption is that they probably already have looked at it skeptically and thouroughly and is the reason that they aren't willing to assume the risk.  What's a 300M investment if your looking at 2.4B in guaranteed returns.

Originally, I believe the plan was to fund this rail project just like we do our road projects.  100% public money (this was the case before the Jeb Bush era).  Then we figured out we could actually get the private sector to invest funds and even operate and maintain the thing.  This style of funding mechanism is the wave of the future on how we're going to have to fund infrastructure improvements.

Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on March 03, 2011, 10:52:12 PM
I keep reading, "Take the red pill." - Let's put out the RFP what harm can come from it. Or "Take the blue pill." - If this happens it will be a travesty.

Why hasn't anyone in this country already eaten both the pills and seen where the rabbit hole leads.  This is America - home of the capitalist.  If this was going to be such a goldmine, then why isn't it here already.  This system has been popular in Europe since the mid 60's early 70's?  China in the 90's?  For whatever reason it hasn't grabbed hold here.  Why?

I hate to inform you that both Europe and China are capitalist societies too.

But what they all seem to do better, is work on producing goods for the common good like infrastructure. And those foreign companies that want to bid on the Florida HSR, are for profit "capitalistic" companies, NOT government owned as in a communistic society.

Face it, there are things that other capitalistic nations do much better than the US!!

The problem is that the US is too fragmented in it's approach to planning, so NOTHING gets done ie ONE man stops 30 years of planning using proven LIES to justify his irrational decision out of pure hatred for the Obama administration!!!!

Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on March 04, 2011, 08:26:44 AM

QuoteI would assume they will be look at this thoroughly (and probably skeptically).

And my assumption is that they probably already have looked at it skeptically and thouroughly and is the reason that they aren't willing to assume the risk.  What's a 300M investment if your looking at 2.4B in guaranteed returns.

Capital costs of infrastructure are hard to recoup....I mean, how many airlines build airports?

That said, the consortiums have so far expressed belief that they can design, build, operate, maintain, and partially finance the train....the 30 year operational costs and risks would be on them.

Well it's over, King Scott won his pathetic game:

QuoteNo high-speed rail for Florida; Court rules for Scott, feds move to give money to someone else
By Janet Zink and Alex Leary, Times/Herald Tallahassee Bureau
Posted: Mar 04, 2011 10:09 AM



TALLAHASSEE â€" The decades-old dream of high-speed rail in Florida died Friday when the state Supreme Court turned down a last-minute lawsuit to save the project and U.S. Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood announced he would send Florida's $2.4 billion to other states.

"I know that states across America are enthusiastic about receiving additional support to help bring America's high-speed rail network to life and deliver all its economic benefits to their citizens," LaHood said shortly after he talked by phone to Gov. Rick Scott, who rejected the money for the third and final time.

A number of other states, including California and New York, have been lobbying for a share of Florida's money ever since Scott first rejected it last month.

http://www.tampabay.com/news/localgovernment/no-high-speed-rail-for-florida-court-rules-for-scott-feds-move-to-give/1155233

Too bad the legislature hadn't appropriated the entire $2.4 billion during the Crist governorship.

Just want to add a big Thank You to all the mis-informed and under-informed teabaggers who are working to destroy America!

Wow, feds to move money to other state's HSR projects?  I thought we could have these funds reallocated to help expand our highways and for port upgrades? ;)

Quote from: thelakelander on March 04, 2011, 11:36:28 AM
Wow, feds to move money to other state's HSR projects?  I thought we could have these funds reallocated to help expand our highways and for port upgrades? ;)

Yep, that's so typical of teabggers. They think they know it all............even to the point of calling HSR, monorail!!

For a complete view on HSR and other paranoia of teabaggers ( You decide how well-informed this teabagger is):

Listen to Geoff Ross, President of the Emerald Coast Tea Party Patriots:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjGGiHhRZ_4

Quote from: thelakelander on March 04, 2011, 11:36:28 AM
Wow, feds to move money to other state's HSR projects?  I thought we could have these funds reallocated to help expand our highways and for port upgrades? ;)

like the Port of Miami?

Quote from: tufsu1 on March 04, 2011, 12:57:37 PM

Quote from: thelakelander on March 04, 2011, 11:36:28 AM
Wow, feds to move money to other state's HSR projects?  I thought we could have these funds reallocated to help expand our highways and for port upgrades? ;)

like the Port of Miami?

You must be kidding........that $77 million for the Miami port weren't federal HSR funds.

Quote from: FayeforCure on March 04, 2011, 10:46:15 AM
Well it's over, King Scott won his pathetic game:

QuoteNo high-speed rail for Florida; Court rules for Scott, feds move to give money to someone else
By Janet Zink and Alex Leary, Times/Herald Tallahassee Bureau
Posted: Mar 04, 2011 10:09 AM



TALLAHASSEE â€" The decades-old dream of high-speed rail in Florida died Friday when the state Supreme Court turned down a last-minute lawsuit to save the project and U.S. Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood announced he would send Florida's $2.4 billion to other states.

"I know that states across America are enthusiastic about receiving additional support to help bring America's high-speed rail network to life and deliver all its economic benefits to their citizens," LaHood said shortly after he talked by phone to Gov. Rick Scott, who rejected the money for the third and final time.

A number of other states, including California and New York, have been lobbying for a share of Florida's money ever since Scott first rejected it last month.

http://www.tampabay.com/news/localgovernment/no-high-speed-rail-for-florida-court-rules-for-scott-feds-move-to-give/1155233

Too bad the legislature hadn't appropriated the entire $2.4 billion during the Crist governorship.

Just want to add a big Thank You to all the mis-informed and under-informed teabaggers who are working to destroy America!

My guess is they are thanking you and yours Faye... for staying home and not voting.  In fact... I know more than a few republicans who are just SOOOooooo happy with the dems... fo not showing up.

You have NO ONE to blame but yourselves.

I wish my fellow progressives had the passion of the Tea Party. As wrong as they seem to be on so many issues passionate now engaged people will do this country good.  I feel like so many Democrats and Republicans are under informed because they picked a side and do not pay attention anymore.  If the members of the Tea Party stay engaged they will weed out the nuts and become more sophisticated voters. I know my rant is condescending to them but hey I see potential.

BT, yeah I'm sure Republicans are soooooo proud of the nutty Teabaggers. BT, why don't you comment on them not knowing the difference between Florida's planned HSR and a monorail.

Have you even seen what this nutso President of the Emerald Coast Patriots spews:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjGGiHhRZ_4

Oh, well I guess in a country where ignorance is considered a virtue ( it's so much easier to mislead the ignorant), there is no point in pointing out the insanity of the teabaggers.

QuoteBT, yeah I'm sure Republicans are soooooo proud of the nutty Teabaggers.

Faye... as always... your anger and disgust are totally misplaced.  Scott needed a few things to happen to be elected.  Tea party support was automatic, republican support, and democrats to stay home.

Due to his past, his clearly stated policies and intentions... a very good number of republicans did not vote for Scott.  The REAL factor in his election as Governer for the next FOUR YEARS is... Democrat voter apathy.  DEMOCRATS are the reason you will not have HSR, DEMOCRATS will be the reason for the things you will soon be railing against.

Blame Rick Scott all you want for these policies... but (man up) and put the blame for his being in office squarely where it belongs.

There seems to be a lot of name calling and hatred in this thread.  I don't claim to be an expert in rail or public transportation, but I have heard what appear to me to be valid arguments for both sides.  The discussion about the actual validity of the Governor's decision is lost in the vitriol here though.

NotNow, would you like to enlighten us as to the "actual validity of the Governor's decision"?

I have heard valid reasons for both sides as well. I do not believe as the Governor claims Florida is on the hook down the road.

Quote from: tufsu1 on March 04, 2011, 08:16:30 AM

Quote from: thelakelander on March 04, 2011, 08:11:07 AM
Not many people travel from Orlando to Tampa on a regular basis.  However, a ton travel the corridor for shorter trips (ex. Tampa to Lakeland, Lakeland to Disney or a Disney or I-Drive to Orlando's airport).  

currently, about 10 million people travel I-4 each year....and that doesn't include the part in Orlando north of Disney!

Come on TU, even YOU know that the HIGH SPEED TRAIN won't take a single car off of I-4's eastern end. A few to Disney from the Airport maybe, and your typical Joe Plumber and family hanging at I-Drive and needing another thrill fix, THAT IS YOUR REAL PASSENGER BASE. For that amount of money we could have hourly or half hourly Amtrak Trains, running on every mainline in the state throughout the day, from Miami to Pensacola via 2-3 routes, and from Tampa to Jacksonville via 2 different routes just on our 1,548 miles of the Florida Strategic Rail System alone.

People in Tallahassee have perhaps asked the question what is more likely to gain a passenger, a FREEway with nearly on-demand resort bus availability and 46,876+ miles of connectivity or a train that runs 85 miles on a very remote piece of highway (even that sounds ludicrous) with hourly availability? Conversely what would a REAL train running every 45 minutes from DOWNTOWN Orlando, to DOWNTOWN, Kissimmee-Poinciana-Haines City-Lake Alfred-Auburndale-Lakeland-Plant City-Tampa-Clearwater-St. Pete AND north to DOWNTOWN Winter Park-Sanford-Deland-Crescent City-Palatka-Green Cove Springs-Orange Park-JACKSONVILLE do for I-4, OH and I-95, and US-17, and US-92, and...

Quote...and that doesn't include the part in Orlando north of Disney!

If your talking HSR, NO PART of it serves this market, it doesn't even reach Orlando proper.

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: Ocklawaha on March 05, 2011, 06:12:31 PM

Quote...and that doesn't include the part in Orlando north of Disney!

If your talking HSR, NO PART of it serves this market, it doesn't even reach Orlando proper.

OCKLAWAHA

which is why I clearly stated that my traffic figures didn't include that segment

Quote from: middleman on March 05, 2011, 03:21:14 PM
NotNow, would you like to enlighten us as to the "actual validity of the Governor's decision"?

It is my impression that the discussion is about the Governor's decision to cancel the Tampa-Orlando HSR project.  There has been debate between those supporting that action for various reasons and those that believe the decision was wrong for various reasons.  I am interested in factual debate, not name calling and political partisianship.

fine...facts are as follows:

1. Florida was far ahead of other states in planning/design only because we had been working on this for 20 years
2. I-4 was widened 10 years ago (and ROW bought) to accomodate rail in the median
3. The Governor said he would wait to see the updated studies...then preempted them
4. The Gov. said he was concerned about the risk to state taxpayers...any risk was removed
5. The Gov. wants private sector jobs....this would have created 20,000+ construction jobs
6. The Gov. wants public-private partnerships....8 private consortiums were interested in partnering

I could go on, but this is a good start

Thanks for the clear statement of points, tufsu1.  How and when would this have been connected to Miami and Jax?

Phase 2 (Orlando to Miami) was already under design and was supposed to break ground upon the completion of phase 1.  That alignment would have went from Orlando's airport, via the Bee Line to the Port Canaveral area and then south down the coast to Miami.  This would have been the leg that would have been the most popular with ridership.  Phase 3 would have been a northern leg to Jax.

Quote from: tufsu1 on March 05, 2011, 07:08:39 PM

Quote from: Ocklawaha on March 05, 2011, 06:12:31 PM

Quote...and that doesn't include the part in Orlando north of Disney!

If your talking HSR, NO PART of it serves this market, it doesn't even reach Orlando proper.

OCKLAWAHA

which is why I clearly stated that my traffic figures didn't include that segment

I assume when you all mention Orlando proper, you mean Orlando's city limits?  Orlando's limits extend south to the Orange County line.  The airport is within the Orlando proper.  That connection, with Sunrail would have linked this line with every core metropolitan Orlando city between Kissimmee and Deland.

Quote from: thelakelander on March 05, 2011, 10:19:45 PM
I assume when you all mention Orlando proper, you mean Orlando's city limits?  Orlando's limits extend south to the Orange County line.  The airport is within the Orlando proper.  That connection, with Sunrail would have linked this line with every core metropolitan Orlando city between Kissimmee and Deland.

Just as Jacksonville's JIA is within Jacksonville proper. Pine trees don't do much for ridership. The Sunrail Connection is pretty much bogus too, being located in the Sand Lake area and not downtown. Here's the count, leaving from a park and ride/or Lynx stop near downtown, the average wait during peak travel time will be 15 mintues for Sunrail, add another 15 minutes for train travel time to Sand Lake Station, add 30 minutes average wait for the hourly HSR train, then add 56 minutes for the HSR train trip time. Grand total=116 minutes spent to save you from a 84 minute auto trip. Try it during off peak hours and you'll add at least an hour to those times.

QuoteRunning the trains. Florida's Department of Transportation's charged with operating SunRail for its first seven years, and all it has committed to so far is weekday service. The trains would run every half-hour, from 5:30-to-8:30 a.m., and from 3:30 â€"to-6:30 p.m. They'd also run every two hours during off-peak periods, from late morning till midafternoon, and then from 6:30 p.m. till midnight.

SOURCE: http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/os-ed-sunrail-032810-20100326,0,4313729.story

Quote from: thelakelander on March 05, 2011, 10:16:26 PM
Phase 2 (Orlando to Miami) was already under design and was supposed to break ground upon the completion of phase 1.  That alignment would have went from Orlando's airport, via the Bee Line to the Port Canaveral area and then south down the coast to Miami.  This would have been the leg that would have been the most popular with ridership.  Phase 3 would have been a northern leg to Jax.

Considering that the very best performing stations in Florida's Amtrak system finds Miami, boarding about 62 persons per train x 2 trains daily, and that those are the same trains planned for the FEC RY route JAX-MIAMI, if you can't see what will happen I'm your Huckleberry.

Orlando currently boards about 54 passengers per train, twice daily, and Tampa with a single train is about 2.5x that amount, once daily. When the ridership figures come on on PHASE 1, any plans for PHASE 2 will go "the Skyway." Phase 3? With those REAL NUMBERS hitting them cold in the face - forget it, ain't gonna happen in our lifetimes.

Quote from: tufsu1 on March 05, 2011, 09:54:24 PM
fine...facts are as follows:

1. Florida was far ahead of other states in planning/design only because we had been working on this for 20 years

Which proves only that time invested does not equal a solid workable plan.

Quote2. I-4 was widened 10 years ago (and ROW bought) to accomodate rail in the median

...And JTB was built by the same state with a wide median for a rail line to the beach... WAS being the key word, Oklahoma has a "Spaceport" as does New Mexico, and their still waiting for the shuttle.

Quote3. The Governor said he would wait to see the updated studies...then preempted them

Discretion is the better part of valor? I would have done the same thing, equipped with the plan we had.

Quote4. The Gov. said he was concerned about the risk to state taxpayers...any risk was removed

It was never removed, just transferred from one government account to another, so the whole idea is a wishful thought at best, and bogus at worst TU, as once the operator failed - packed up and skipped across the pond, the Florida Taxpayer or the Florida FEDERAL TAXPAYER would get shafted with the bill... and it's so badly located that I doubt Amtrak or CSX could make much use out of it.

Quote5. The Gov. wants private sector jobs....this would have created 20,000+ construction jobs

Another bogus HSR claim. They "estimated it would create 20,000 temporary construction jobs" but in operation an 80-250 mile railroad would NEVER have more then 500 employees. These were numbers designed to sell the project and nothing more. Frankly the Governor would get a lot more mileage out of an expanded intra-state Amtrak system, and port investment.

Quote6. The Gov. wants public-private partnerships....8 private consortiums were interested in partnering

A 2.5 Billion dollar paycheck? If it wasn't that I would walk away on principal, if I were in a position to jump on that gravy train, what's a couple million lost? But if I really did lose bucks, and could see no national movement happening toward my product, I'd be bankrupt and snugly back in France or China before the sun set on another day. Don't let your own enthusiasm, desire for a pay check and/or sentiment cloud your thoughts. Railroading a hugely capital intensive and operating ratios of close to 100 are common... way too close for most industries to stomach.

QuoteI could go on, but this is a good start

Good place to quit too, a bad project by any other name is still?

OCKLAWAHA

ps: NOTNOW, sorry if you think I'm just name calling on here, like cops, railroaders are a caustic bunch of SOB'S, and in my case sarcasm is my spiritual gift!

No, thanks for presenting both sides.  I am trying to learn about this issue.  I still feel that a streetcar would be a money losing, but nice and interesting, addition to downtown.  I would like to see the skyway actually go somewhere.  Like the airport, the sports complex, and maybe even the beach and points in between.  But I am undecided on other rail options. 

If given the choice betwen local transit, regional rail, or intercity rail most planners believe local transit should be the priority.....and if given $2 Billion for rail in Florida, mostg of us would have spent it on projects likle Amtrak/FEC instead of HSR....BUT WE DIDN'T HAVE THAT CHOICE!

Quote from: tufsu1 on March 06, 2011, 08:43:15 AM
If given the choice betwen local transit, regional rail, or intercity rail most planners believe local transit should be the priority.....and if given $2 Billion for rail in Florida, mostg of us would have spent it on projects likle Amtrak/FEC instead of HSR....BUT WE DIDN'T HAVE THAT CHOICE!

IMHO, Perhaps the best thing I have read here in weeks... BOY DO WE AGREE ON THIS!

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: NotNow on March 06, 2011, 12:05:14 AM
No, thanks for presenting both sides.  I am trying to learn about this issue.  I still feel that a streetcar would be a money losing, but nice and interesting, addition to downtown.  I would like to see the skyway actually go somewhere.  Like the airport, the sports complex, and maybe even the beach and points in between.  But I am undecided on other rail options. 

Two points to remember here NOTNOW, (and my fellow transit or urban planners can certainly add to this if they want). The Skyway is STRICTLY a downtown type shuttle system, it was never designed or built for regional use. Though it CAN get up to 50+ mph, it is too small, and lacks seating for a comfortable ride. Had it been built as a full scale monorail, it would certainly have been more useful in getting to the Airport, Beaches, etc.. That said, it could be reconfigured to handle a full size monorail train, some of which use a narrower beam but a much wider car, but now were back into the $$ big bucks $$...

Streetcar will lose money, on a strictly revenue/expense ratio, transit cannot make money in the traditional sense for a number of reasons, just as highways, airlines, passenger trains, etc... can't, without artificial infusions of cash. The difference is streetcars have a proven track record as development engines. Every city that has installed streetcar or LRT has experienced a building boom in the hundreds of millions of dollars. Streetcars have much higher ridership then buses - though some would try and argue the point, the numbers speak for themselves. Bus Rapid Transit, which claims the same benefit, simply cannot post the numbers of proof. The recent "building boom" on Cleveland's Euclid BRT is with a single exception ALL government building... But the $3 Billion+ of development in Portland, or Salt Lake City or Dallas or San Diego etc. is new private money. We could use some of that. The national average is now about $14 dollars gained for every $1 invested in streetcar. READ:  http://www.cincystreetcar.com/economicdevelopment.html

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: Ocklawaha on March 05, 2011, 11:39:46 PM

Quote from: thelakelander on March 05, 2011, 10:19:45 PM
I assume when you all mention Orlando proper, you mean Orlando's city limits?  Orlando's limits extend south to the Orange County line.  The airport is within the Orlando proper.  That connection, with Sunrail would have linked this line with every core metropolitan Orlando city between Kissimmee and Deland.

Just as Jacksonville's JIA is within Jacksonville proper. Pine trees don't do much for ridership. The Sunrail Connection is pretty much bogus too, being located in the Sand Lake area and not downtown. Here's the count, leaving from a park and ride/or Lynx stop near downtown, the average wait during peak travel time will be 15 mintues for Sunrail, add another 15 minutes for train travel time to Sand Lake Station, add 30 minutes average wait for the hourly HSR train, then add 56 minutes for the HSR train trip time. Grand total=116 minutes spent to save you from a 84 minute auto trip. Try it during off peak hours and you'll add at least an hour to those times.

You guys do realize that downtown Orlando is not the center of Central Florida right?  Look into the history of the region.  Orlando was a small citrus and agricultural community before Disney opened in 1971.  That little urban core (which is similar in size to Lakeland's) didn't densify in population after the city bstarted to rapidly increase in population.  The city, instead grew (annexation) southward towards the Disney and airport area.  I've always said, when planning for specific corridors, you can't do it with a one size fits all mentality.  This not only goes for mode, but also specific route planning as well.  Quite simply, Central Florida is a different animal when compared to traditional older established cities such as a Chicago, Atlanta or even a Jacksonville.  Since the majority of people down there aren't going anywhere near downtown Orlando, why try and force them there with every single transit mode instead of designing your network to directly tie in the places where masses in your community actually go?  With all of this said, I'm not saying DT Orlando should be abandoned or ignored.  I'm saying that tying in DT Orlando with Sunrail (the local transit mode), would have been just fine.

QuoteRunning the trains. Florida's Department of Transportation's charged with operating SunRail for its first seven years, and all it has committed to so far is weekday service. The trains would run every half-hour, from 5:30-to-8:30 a.m., and from 3:30 â€"to-6:30 p.m. They'd also run every two hours during off-peak periods, from late morning till midafternoon, and then from 6:30 p.m. till midnight.

Get the infrastructure in and you can always work on modifying service frequencies and coordinating schedules to allow for seamless platform transferring.  Btw, what were HSR's frequencies?  I can't imagine that they would have a train coming every 10 minutes.

Quote

Quote from: thelakelander on March 05, 2011, 10:16:26 PM
Phase 2 (Orlando to Miami) was already under design and was supposed to break ground upon the completion of phase 1.  That alignment would have went from Orlando's airport, via the Bee Line to the Port Canaveral area and then south down the coast to Miami.  This would have been the leg that would have been the most popular with ridership.  Phase 3 would have been a northern leg to Jax.

Considering that the very best performing stations in Florida's Amtrak system finds Miami, boarding about 62 persons per train x 2 trains daily, and that those are the same trains planned for the FEC RY route JAX-MIAMI, if you can't see what will happen I'm your Huckleberry.

Orlando currently boards about 54 passengers per train, twice daily, and Tampa with a single train is about 2.5x that amount, once daily. When the ridership figures come on on PHASE 1, any plans for PHASE 2 will go "the Skyway." Phase 3? With those REAL NUMBERS hitting them cold in the face - forget it, ain't gonna happen in our lifetimes.

To assume this, you would have to conform Central Florida's travel patterns into a traditional line of thinking.  The current Amtrak system is not reliable (freight has higher priority), and totally misses most of Central Florida's major destinations (ex. Disney, I-Drive/Convention Center, Airport, Port Canaveral, etc.).  Its really and apples and oranges comparison due to that particular landscape and Amtrak's operational deficiencies.

Quote from: NotNow on March 06, 2011, 12:05:14 AM
No, thanks for presenting both sides.  I am trying to learn about this issue.  I still feel that a streetcar would be a money losing, but nice and interesting, addition to downtown.  I would like to see the skyway actually go somewhere.  Like the airport, the sports complex, and maybe even the beach and points in between.  But I am undecided on other rail options. 

Like public safety, libraries, public schools, city parks, sidewalks and roads, mass transit is a quality of life component of an urban city and does not directly pay for itself.  However, unlike many of the others mentioned above, its subsidized less, due to the fact that it typically generates some income through fare box revenue, wrap advertising and other means.  Now, if you tie in land development around stations as a part of the mass transit system, it will pay for itself, over and over again and reduce the operational stress put on the other quality of life offerings mentioned above.

Quote from: thelakelander on March 06, 2011, 10:29:21 AM
Now, if you tie in land development around stations as a part of the mass transit system, it will pay for itself, over and over again and reduce the operational stress put on the other quality of life offerings mentioned above.

My experience with a serious mass-transit system is when I lived in the Boston area, which had a combination of subways, trolleys, & commuter rail. In the dense urban core, a subway or trolley stop usually meant development and revitalization. For those of you familiar with the area, Porter Square in Somerville comes to mind. A run-down neighborhood transformed into a urban hot-spot after a subway line was extended to it.

However, the same wasn't true with commuter rail. I do seem to recall a condo development that was built on a commuter rail station, but for the most part the commuter rail stops didn't spur development. This could be for a lot of reasons, for instance, many New England towns were anti-development and might have interfered with plans. But, I'm just saying, just because you bring mass-transit to an area, does not automatically mean new development... and we should be careful to assume that it will.

^You are correct.  We can look at the skyway as proof.  However, when you integrate mass transit and land use together, from a public policy standpoint, transit oriented (or adjacent) development tends to follow.  On the commuter rail side of things, the style of service also has a lot to do with whether a system will be attractive to TOD or not.  For example, while commuter and intercity rail may not have spurred massive TOD in Boston, it has in California.

Remember that the OMNI, WACHOVIA and HILTON GARDEN INN are all byproducts of the SKYWAY! So it doesn't carry a soul... how much are these places worth to our economy?

As for Commuter Rail, I think even a Miami type system will attract development if Florida wasn't so damn backward. California will run METROLINK trains every 30 minutes all day and all night too. Jacksonville or Orlando will introduce Commuter Rail with 2 hour headway's and MAYBE a small morning and evening rush of better frequencies... forget going to a concert or out to the mall, because we'll roll up the sidewalks and close the stations at 6 pm.  Witness the poor Skyway... undependable, off schedule, dirty, smells like piss, broken fare and turnstile machines, no weekend or holiday service, no night service past 9 pm... City 1.4 million people-transit HORRIBLE.

I see that Faye just posted about being way behind in infrastructure, and I'll agree with her.  Colombia is so far ahead of the US in mass transit we couldn't get a radar fix on them. The new trolley buses in Medellin are "GUIDED BUS TECHNOLOGY", want to go to the poor barrios in the mountains? No problem, buses every 10 minutes, or a train, or rope cable tramways (which run continuously with a car arriving at any one station about every 45 seconds). For a proud American that has never traveled out of our country it can be an eye opening experience and a large serving of humble pie. Go with me to Bogota, Cali, Medellin, Cartagena, Rio, Ciudad de Panama, Bello Horizonte, Brasilia, or even freaking Paramaribo Suriname, pick ANY location, ANYWHERE in these cities, and walk to the corner... 30 seconds MAYBE, 2 minutes not likely, more then 5 NEVER, and you'll have a bus, trolley, subway, train, taxi, boat, something ready to whisk you to your destination. In the Andes or in Amazonia, city or country, anywhere, anytime... GO!

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: thelakelander on March 06, 2011, 06:21:21 PM
^You are correct.  We can look at the skyway as proof.  However, when you integrate mass transit and land use together, from a public policy standpoint, transit oriented (or adjacent) development tends to follow.  On the commuter rail side of things, the style of service also has a lot to do with whether a system will be attractive to TOD or not.  For example, while commuter and intercity rail may not have spurred massive TOD in Boston, it has in California.

Yeah, that makes sense. Question is, if commuter rail is ever brought to Jacksonville, will intelligent land use be coupled with it?