Poll: 67% of Floridians support state or federal funding for High Speed Rail

[tufsu1]

...and that doesn't include the part in Orlando north of Disney!

If your talking HSR, NO PART of it serves this market, it doesn't even reach Orlando proper.

OCKLAWAHA

which is why I clearly stated that my traffic figures didn't include that segment

[NotNow]

NotNow, would you like to enlighten us as to the "actual validity of the Governor's decision"?

It is my impression that the discussion is about the Governor's decision to cancel the Tampa-Orlando HSR project.  There has been debate between those supporting that action for various reasons and those that believe the decision was wrong for various reasons.  I am interested in factual debate, not name calling and political partisianship.

[tufsu1]

fine...facts are as follows:

1. Florida was far ahead of other states in planning/design only because we had been working on this for 20 years
2. I-4 was widened 10 years ago (and ROW bought) to accomodate rail in the median
3. The Governor said he would wait to see the updated studies...then preempted them
4. The Gov. said he was concerned about the risk to state taxpayers...any risk was removed
5. The Gov. wants private sector jobs....this would have created 20,000+ construction jobs
6. The Gov. wants public-private partnerships....8 private consortiums were interested in partnering

I could go on, but this is a good start

[NotNow]

Thanks for the clear statement of points, tufsu1.  How and when would this have been connected to Miami and Jax?

[thelakelander]

Phase 2 (Orlando to Miami) was already under design and was supposed to break ground upon the completion of phase 1.  That alignment would have went from Orlando's airport, via the Bee Line to the Port Canaveral area and then south down the coast to Miami.  This would have been the leg that would have been the most popular with ridership.  Phase 3 would have been a northern leg to Jax.

[thelakelander]

...and that doesn't include the part in Orlando north of Disney!

If your talking HSR, NO PART of it serves this market, it doesn't even reach Orlando proper.

OCKLAWAHA

which is why I clearly stated that my traffic figures didn't include that segment

I assume when you all mention Orlando proper, you mean Orlando's city limits?  Orlando's limits extend south to the Orange County line.  The airport is within the Orlando proper.  That connection, with Sunrail would have linked this line with every core metropolitan Orlando city between Kissimmee and Deland.

[Ocklawaha]

I assume when you all mention Orlando proper, you mean Orlando's city limits?  Orlando's limits extend south to the Orange County line.  The airport is within the Orlando proper.  That connection, with Sunrail would have linked this line with every core metropolitan Orlando city between Kissimmee and Deland.

Just as Jacksonville's JIA is within Jacksonville proper. Pine trees don't do much for ridership. The Sunrail Connection is pretty much bogus too, being located in the Sand Lake area and not downtown. Here's the count, leaving from a park and ride/or Lynx stop near downtown, the average wait during peak travel time will be 15 mintues for Sunrail, add another 15 minutes for train travel time to Sand Lake Station, add 30 minutes average wait for the hourly HSR train, then add 56 minutes for the HSR train trip time. Grand total=116 minutes spent to save you from a 84 minute auto trip. Try it during off peak hours and you'll add at least an hour to those times.

Running the trains. Florida's Department of Transportation's charged with operating SunRail for its first seven years, and all it has committed to so far is weekday service. The trains would run every half-hour, from 5:30-to-8:30 a.m., and from 3:30 â€"to-6:30 p.m. They'd also run every two hours during off-peak periods, from late morning till midafternoon, and then from 6:30 p.m. till midnight.

SOURCE: http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/os-ed-sunrail-032810-20100326,0,4313729.story

Phase 2 (Orlando to Miami) was already under design and was supposed to break ground upon the completion of phase 1.  That alignment would have went from Orlando's airport, via the Bee Line to the Port Canaveral area and then south down the coast to Miami.  This would have been the leg that would have been the most popular with ridership.  Phase 3 would have been a northern leg to Jax.

Considering that the very best performing stations in Florida's Amtrak system finds Miami, boarding about 62 persons per train x 2 trains daily, and that those are the same trains planned for the FEC RY route JAX-MIAMI, if you can't see what will happen I'm your Huckleberry.

Orlando currently boards about 54 passengers per train, twice daily, and Tampa with a single train is about 2.5x that amount, once daily. When the ridership figures come on on PHASE 1, any plans for PHASE 2 will go "the Skyway." Phase 3? With those REAL NUMBERS hitting them cold in the face - forget it, ain't gonna happen in our lifetimes.

fine...facts are as follows:

1. Florida was far ahead of other states in planning/design only because we had been working on this for 20 years

Which proves only that time invested does not equal a solid workable plan.

2. I-4 was widened 10 years ago (and ROW bought) to accomodate rail in the median

...And JTB was built by the same state with a wide median for a rail line to the beach... WAS being the key word, Oklahoma has a "Spaceport" as does New Mexico, and their still waiting for the shuttle.

3. The Governor said he would wait to see the updated studies...then preempted them

Discretion is the better part of valor? I would have done the same thing, equipped with the plan we had.

4. The Gov. said he was concerned about the risk to state taxpayers...any risk was removed

It was never removed, just transferred from one government account to another, so the whole idea is a wishful thought at best, and bogus at worst TU, as once the operator failed - packed up and skipped across the pond, the Florida Taxpayer or the Florida FEDERAL TAXPAYER would get shafted with the bill... and it's so badly located that I doubt Amtrak or CSX could make much use out of it.

5. The Gov. wants private sector jobs....this would have created 20,000+ construction jobs

Another bogus HSR claim. They "estimated it would create 20,000 temporary construction jobs" but in operation an 80-250 mile railroad would NEVER have more then 500 employees. These were numbers designed to sell the project and nothing more. Frankly the Governor would get a lot more mileage out of an expanded intra-state Amtrak system, and port investment.

6. The Gov. wants public-private partnerships....8 private consortiums were interested in partnering

A 2.5 Billion dollar paycheck? If it wasn't that I would walk away on principal, if I were in a position to jump on that gravy train, what's a couple million lost? But if I really did lose bucks, and could see no national movement happening toward my product, I'd be bankrupt and snugly back in France or China before the sun set on another day. Don't let your own enthusiasm, desire for a pay check and/or sentiment cloud your thoughts. Railroading a hugely capital intensive and operating ratios of close to 100 are common... way too close for most industries to stomach.

I could go on, but this is a good start

Good place to quit too, a bad project by any other name is still?

OCKLAWAHA

ps: NOTNOW, sorry if you think I'm just name calling on here, like cops, railroaders are a caustic bunch of SOB'S, and in my case sarcasm is my spiritual gift!

[NotNow]

No, thanks for presenting both sides.  I am trying to learn about this issue.  I still feel that a streetcar would be a money losing, but nice and interesting, addition to downtown.  I would like to see the skyway actually go somewhere.  Like the airport, the sports complex, and maybe even the beach and points in between.  But I am undecided on other rail options. 

[tufsu1]

If given the choice betwen local transit, regional rail, or intercity rail most planners believe local transit should be the priority.....and if given $2 Billion for rail in Florida, mostg of us would have spent it on projects likle Amtrak/FEC instead of HSR....BUT WE DIDN'T HAVE THAT CHOICE!

[Ocklawaha]

If given the choice betwen local transit, regional rail, or intercity rail most planners believe local transit should be the priority.....and if given $2 Billion for rail in Florida, mostg of us would have spent it on projects likle Amtrak/FEC instead of HSR....BUT WE DIDN'T HAVE THAT CHOICE!

IMHO, Perhaps the best thing I have read here in weeks... BOY DO WE AGREE ON THIS!

OCKLAWAHA

[Ocklawaha]

No, thanks for presenting both sides.  I am trying to learn about this issue.  I still feel that a streetcar would be a money losing, but nice and interesting, addition to downtown.  I would like to see the skyway actually go somewhere.  Like the airport, the sports complex, and maybe even the beach and points in between.  But I am undecided on other rail options. 

Two points to remember here NOTNOW, (and my fellow transit or urban planners can certainly add to this if they want). The Skyway is STRICTLY a downtown type shuttle system, it was never designed or built for regional use. Though it CAN get up to 50+ mph, it is too small, and lacks seating for a comfortable ride. Had it been built as a full scale monorail, it would certainly have been more useful in getting to the Airport, Beaches, etc.. That said, it could be reconfigured to handle a full size monorail train, some of which use a narrower beam but a much wider car, but now were back into the $$ big bucks $$...

Streetcar will lose money, on a strictly revenue/expense ratio, transit cannot make money in the traditional sense for a number of reasons, just as highways, airlines, passenger trains, etc... can't, without artificial infusions of cash. The difference is streetcars have a proven track record as development engines. Every city that has installed streetcar or LRT has experienced a building boom in the hundreds of millions of dollars. Streetcars have much higher ridership then buses - though some would try and argue the point, the numbers speak for themselves. Bus Rapid Transit, which claims the same benefit, simply cannot post the numbers of proof. The recent "building boom" on Cleveland's Euclid BRT is with a single exception ALL government building... But the $3 Billion+ of development in Portland, or Salt Lake City or Dallas or San Diego etc. is new private money. We could use some of that. The national average is now about $14 dollars gained for every $1 invested in streetcar. READ:  http://www.cincystreetcar.com/economicdevelopment.html

OCKLAWAHA

[thelakelander]

I assume when you all mention Orlando proper, you mean Orlando's city limits?  Orlando's limits extend south to the Orange County line.  The airport is within the Orlando proper.  That connection, with Sunrail would have linked this line with every core metropolitan Orlando city between Kissimmee and Deland.

Just as Jacksonville's JIA is within Jacksonville proper. Pine trees don't do much for ridership. The Sunrail Connection is pretty much bogus too, being located in the Sand Lake area and not downtown. Here's the count, leaving from a park and ride/or Lynx stop near downtown, the average wait during peak travel time will be 15 mintues for Sunrail, add another 15 minutes for train travel time to Sand Lake Station, add 30 minutes average wait for the hourly HSR train, then add 56 minutes for the HSR train trip time. Grand total=116 minutes spent to save you from a 84 minute auto trip. Try it during off peak hours and you'll add at least an hour to those times.

You guys do realize that downtown Orlando is not the center of Central Florida right?  Look into the history of the region.  Orlando was a small citrus and agricultural community before Disney opened in 1971.  That little urban core (which is similar in size to Lakeland's) didn't densify in population after the city bstarted to rapidly increase in population.  The city, instead grew (annexation) southward towards the Disney and airport area.  I've always said, when planning for specific corridors, you can't do it with a one size fits all mentality.  This not only goes for mode, but also specific route planning as well.  Quite simply, Central Florida is a different animal when compared to traditional older established cities such as a Chicago, Atlanta or even a Jacksonville.  Since the majority of people down there aren't going anywhere near downtown Orlando, why try and force them there with every single transit mode instead of designing your network to directly tie in the places where masses in your community actually go?  With all of this said, I'm not saying DT Orlando should be abandoned or ignored.  I'm saying that tying in DT Orlando with Sunrail (the local transit mode), would have been just fine.

Running the trains. Florida's Department of Transportation's charged with operating SunRail for its first seven years, and all it has committed to so far is weekday service. The trains would run every half-hour, from 5:30-to-8:30 a.m., and from 3:30 â€"to-6:30 p.m. They'd also run every two hours during off-peak periods, from late morning till midafternoon, and then from 6:30 p.m. till midnight.

Get the infrastructure in and you can always work on modifying service frequencies and coordinating schedules to allow for seamless platform transferring.  Btw, what were HSR's frequencies?  I can't imagine that they would have a train coming every 10 minutes.

Phase 2 (Orlando to Miami) was already under design and was supposed to break ground upon the completion of phase 1.  That alignment would have went from Orlando's airport, via the Bee Line to the Port Canaveral area and then south down the coast to Miami.  This would have been the leg that would have been the most popular with ridership.  Phase 3 would have been a northern leg to Jax.

Considering that the very best performing stations in Florida's Amtrak system finds Miami, boarding about 62 persons per train x 2 trains daily, and that those are the same trains planned for the FEC RY route JAX-MIAMI, if you can't see what will happen I'm your Huckleberry.

Orlando currently boards about 54 passengers per train, twice daily, and Tampa with a single train is about 2.5x that amount, once daily. When the ridership figures come on on PHASE 1, any plans for PHASE 2 will go "the Skyway." Phase 3? With those REAL NUMBERS hitting them cold in the face - forget it, ain't gonna happen in our lifetimes.

To assume this, you would have to conform Central Florida's travel patterns into a traditional line of thinking.  The current Amtrak system is not reliable (freight has higher priority), and totally misses most of Central Florida's major destinations (ex. Disney, I-Drive/Convention Center, Airport, Port Canaveral, etc.).  Its really and apples and oranges comparison due to that particular landscape and Amtrak's operational deficiencies.

[thelakelander]

No, thanks for presenting both sides.  I am trying to learn about this issue.  I still feel that a streetcar would be a money losing, but nice and interesting, addition to downtown.  I would like to see the skyway actually go somewhere.  Like the airport, the sports complex, and maybe even the beach and points in between.  But I am undecided on other rail options. 

Like public safety, libraries, public schools, city parks, sidewalks and roads, mass transit is a quality of life component of an urban city and does not directly pay for itself.  However, unlike many of the others mentioned above, its subsidized less, due to the fact that it typically generates some income through fare box revenue, wrap advertising and other means.  Now, if you tie in land development around stations as a part of the mass transit system, it will pay for itself, over and over again and reduce the operational stress put on the other quality of life offerings mentioned above.

[middleman]

Now, if you tie in land development around stations as a part of the mass transit system, it will pay for itself, over and over again and reduce the operational stress put on the other quality of life offerings mentioned above.

My experience with a serious mass-transit system is when I lived in the Boston area, which had a combination of subways, trolleys, & commuter rail. In the dense urban core, a subway or trolley stop usually meant development and revitalization. For those of you familiar with the area, Porter Square in Somerville comes to mind. A run-down neighborhood transformed into a urban hot-spot after a subway line was extended to it.

However, the same wasn't true with commuter rail. I do seem to recall a condo development that was built on a commuter rail station, but for the most part the commuter rail stops didn't spur development. This could be for a lot of reasons, for instance, many New England towns were anti-development and might have interfered with plans. But, I'm just saying, just because you bring mass-transit to an area, does not automatically mean new development... and we should be careful to assume that it will.

[thelakelander]

^You are correct.  We can look at the skyway as proof.  However, when you integrate mass transit and land use together, from a public policy standpoint, transit oriented (or adjacent) development tends to follow.  On the commuter rail side of things, the style of service also has a lot to do with whether a system will be attractive to TOD or not.  For example, while commuter and intercity rail may not have spurred massive TOD in Boston, it has in California.